If Women Are Naturally Submissive, Dominance Doesn’t Need To Be Forced

“I didn’t even know that your wife had a career. So it really piqued my interest to read about your debate about leadership in your marriage. I face a similar struggle myself. Our marriage is often too equal and therefore a perpetual power struggle. I would be very interested in your experiences in this realm. Other bloggers like Athol seem to be gifted enough to be married to completely submissive women and there is no one talking about how to maintain a successful marriage to a (feminist influenced) woman who rationally thinks she wants equality even though that’s not how things play out all the time in the relationship.”
Well yes and no. Jennifer is submissive, but…
Buy Me!

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Comments

  1. Anonymous says:

    "By way of comparison, back in the day I passed on dating a particular feminist friend that I was interested in. Nice girl, smart, pretty just with this huge feminist chip on her shoulder that I couldn't be bothered with. I just slowly found it a turn off and never pursued her."

    I had a very similar experience. Really nice girl. Pretty enough, nice family, my religion, good education. Liked blokes like me, the traditional looking type. But she had this feminist bug. It spoiled her for me and other blokes.

    My wife is naturally fairly submissive. I notice that you spank yours (apparently). Mine has always liked a bit of this. A good sign!

    But just because a girl is naturally submissive doesn't mean you can relax. You still have to push her girl buttons. And even a naturally submissive girl can lack self-awareness. My wife found something I had written about her natural submissiveness and she objected this morning. I just teased her by imitating her recently asking me if she could have a pet parrot. Some submissive women don't realise how amenable they actually are.

    Have you see Mormon Men blog? He says his wife is not naturally submissive, but he can game her into it for a while.

    I am a quiet guy, but I think my wife was attracted to my willingness to dominate her. I have never felt squeamish about this, as some men seem to. I don't do kinky things with her, but she just plays second fiddle: took my name, works part-time, cooks my meals, irons my shirts, complies in the bedroom most of the time.

    David C

  2. Deansdale says:

    I think there are 2 things worth knowing here:
    1. Never date and never-ever marry a woman who has "power struggle issues" with men in her conscious mind, ie. a feminist. Normal women never spend their time thinking about how to fight or rule over their BFs/husbands. Sane women never think about strategies on how to "defend" themselves against an illusory "oppression" by their men.
    She might be a "good woman" at heart but her mind is f*cked up. You DON'T need a servile woman to have a good LTR but it's impossible with someone who sees you as an enemy from the very beginning.
    2. You don't need to rule over your woman. You don't need to supervise her or make her own decisions for her. You just need to be rock solid in your beliefs, wants, needs, decisions, hobbies, YOUR SELF. Be a man. Decide and offer her the chace to follow.
    The "captain and 1st officer" analogy is quite good.

    One important rule to remember: if she asks you about anything (where to go out to eat, if the 2 of you should buy sthg or whatever) you MUST BE DECISIVE. Never ask back. Never tell her you "want what she wants". Even if it doesn't matter to you at all, make a decision and stick to it.
    If she disagrees or whines just stick to what you've said and tell her she can do what she wants but you'll do what you've decided to do – and be prepared to calmly act on your words. Any time you fail to decide when she prompts you to decide, she'll be frustrated with you and lose a bit of respect for you.

  3. BobW says:

    I think the word you really want is subordinate, not submissive. Your wife may actually be submissive, but that's a different issue.

    A subordinate accepts your right to give orders, within limits. A submissive sets no limits.

  4. Anonymous says:

    Agreed with Bob–"submissive" often has a negative connotation, even for women who aren't feminists, per se.

    Athol, I would love to see a post about the difference between being dominant and being a jackass. A lot of guys seem to miss that subtle distinction and fail miserably.

    You mentioned above that you 1) acknowledge your wife's skills and importance in helping you keep your shit together, and 2) thank her often. I think these are a big part of the dominance vs. jackass balance.

  5. Flahute says:

    Ha! I knew you'd see that Athol. Yes, I know, your wife is naturally submissive. I didn't think I was implying that you made her such.

    With some women, you see the feminist chip on their shoulder right away. Others, like my wife, it is not obvious. She is very feminine in looks and demeanor: skirts and dresses, sweet voice, long hair, very beautiful. Nothing masculine about her at all. However, the idea that men are first, women second just does not sit well with her ego. She needs to feel that women are equal to men. She also feels marriage is about equality. I am working to change this, but so far it has had a destabilizing effect on the marriage.

    Thankfully the one place where she always submits to my masculinity is in the bedroom.

    What I am finding as I learn more about how women think and what makes them tick and tingle, is how biology will dictate behavior no matter what women think. This should come as no surprise to many of you. She may have this ideology of equality, but that is not how things play out in reality. She may think she is a strong independent woman who doesn't need a man, but the difficulties of life bring her down and she does need me to hold her and tell her everything is going to work out. This heals her and gives her strength. When she becomes filled with anger, acts like a brat, she really needs to be put in her place. I put her in her place, and this calms her. It is amazing how quickly her mood changes from bitter to sweet again. These are just two examples, but this evidence gives me encouragement that our relationship can find a more 'natural' balance.

  6. Anonymous says:

    Good luck finding a submissive woman in organized feminism-riddled religion. They're there but about as common as $3 bills. Many women in organized religion hate the word "submission" with the same ferocity that feminists hate it.

  7. Confidunce says:

    I think this is key. Gaming a girl early in the relationship is a good way to sort out the girls who won't abide your alpha frame.

    In my sad-bastard experience, some girls' "feminism" (note the quotes) is in conflict with what she wants on a different level. E.g., girls say they want a decisive man, but they don't like being told what to do.

    Athol, I think this post deserves a cross-reference to your earlier post on dealing with indecisive women. The crucial upshot to that post — find a way to be decisive and strong without pitting yourself against your girl's own free will — is even more crucial when dealing with women who are either constitutionally unsubmissive or merely unsubmissive at that moment.

  8. Jake P says:

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, AK: I wish I'd had access to this blog a few years ago. (You've given me the confidence to act and think in ways that intuitively made sense, but the MSM told me were wrong.) Nonetheless, a lesson learned late is better than one never learned at all.

  9. Ms Lacrymosa says:

    "if you're expecting her to be wearing a collar and sitting at my feet naked…oh hang on that's actually kinda hot".

    Very!! :-)

    And some of the wisest and sexiest MEN I know are feminists, lol.

    MsLacrymosa (submissive feminist)

  10. BobW says:

    Men and women are equal. We are not identical. Vive la difference!

  11. mnl says:

    Nice banter going on here.

    To what Confidunce said… yes, it's important to establish the right frame early on–while dating or early in the LTR. After that, dominance/subordinate behavior patterns become much more "sticky"–which is where I'm at currently. Not impossibly sticky; they just require longer, more consistent behavior on your (the man's) part–albeit and provided you've got good raw materials in the woman!

    I recall when dating my wife that we had a strong disagreement. I forget the details; they're not important. It was likely over something trivial. The bottom line was that she was unhappy, got a huge pouty look on her face, and said something like, "Well, if you won't do X, then I'm leaving!" …At which point she proceeded to storm out the door. She lived about four or so miles away from me. It was dark outside. The girl walked the whole damn way.

    …And I said nothing. I let her go. Later on she bitched about how I didn't care about her. She was mad I didn't come running out to track her down and apologize. (…And I admit: in today's world or in the wrong part of town her behavior might've been suicidal as well as just immature.) But in hindsight, now 20 years later, I'm so glad I didn't take the bait. I look back on that event as one of several defining moments. The incident both… a) helped set a tone for the next 20+ years, and b) served as a sort of selection mechanism. Had she broken-up the relationship over it, I'd have weeded-out someone quite likely long-term incompatible.

    Now, I won't say my wife is presently docile as a kitten (or sitting naked on a leash by my feet!). I married a feisty, passionate variety. But one tries to set, and then continue, the right precedent. Her antics now more likely force from me a patient, knowing smirk.

  12. Athol Kay says:

    David C – "But just because a girl is naturally submissive doesn't mean you can relax. You still have to push her girl buttons."

    Yes agree. Hence all purpose use of game.

    Deansdale – yup agree with all that.

    BoBw – "I think the word you really want is subordinate, not submissive. Your wife may actually be submissive, but that's a different issue."

    The language really is the struggle here. Subordinate might work, but then would that make me her Superior? I'm running with the terms submissive and dominant for SEO and drama inducing reasons as much as anything, but agree the terms are somewhat difficult.

    Personally I find the entire idea of dominant husband / submissive wife is broadcast as so politically incorrect that the only way to actually combat that cultural viewpoint is to just not flinch and identify with the terms and say you both like it.

    The key is having the woman discover for that she actually enjoys submission… and that moment of awakening can't be forced on her.

    Anon – yes religious groups have gone whole hog for feminism it seems. The religious aspect just complicates things I think.

  13. BobW says:

    "If the truth will not serve us, what does that say about us?" (emphasis added)

    Choosing a word that doesn't mean quite what you mean, for dramatic effect, will eventually bite you. At some level people react to the literal meaning of what you say.

    You've already got the Star Trek game.

  14. Athol Kay says:

    Dominance and Submission are very wide terms. I'm not sure where you get the idea of submissives having no limits from.

    Dominance and submission are completely normal elements of everyday social interactions. The bus driver is dominant and the passengers are submissive for example.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submissive

  15. Athol Kay says:

    Shakespeare's Debtor – you're adding nothing to the conversation with your list spam, so you'll understand why I delete them.

    If you have a question ask it.

  16. V says:

    The important thing about submission and love is to value it. Men and women ARE equal in the sense that they both have equal worth, and in many ways have equal capabilities. It's telling I think that the wage gap isn't due to a lack of opportunity as feminists would claim, or due to a lack of ability (as some reactionaries would advocate) but the result of CHOICE, what jobs to take etc etc etc.

    Submission is a gift, and it doesn't make her subordinate to you. I think it's destructive and arrogant to belief that because you lead someone or they follow you you are inherently superior to them. Without followers the leaders would be powerless.

    A followers job isn't to do the tasks the leader doesn't want to. And a leader's job isn't to sit back and watch while his wife makes him a sammwich. SO many beta guys I see want this kind of archetypal nurturing mother stereotype.

    To follow, to learn from, to love is not to be a slave. When someone gives you the gift of following you of listening to you. The act of the leader isn't to put someone into place, but to lead them there.

    I guess my point is that in any relationship it works because you need eachother equally. It is eglatarian in nature as it's heart. She needs someone to lead, and you need and appreciate her following you. And you reward and thank her for her love, just a she rewards and thanks you for yours.

  17. Athol Kay says:

    Thanks V.

  18. Anni says:

    MNL – About your example with your wife in early stages of your relationship. She later accused you of not caring about her and I agree, as a young woman myself I wouldn't feel cared about in such situation. I'm not saying you should have apologized to her, nor am I disputing the immaturity of her behaviour. But in my opinion you should have been man enough to forget about your disagreement and make sure she was safe. Maybe that was the case – maybe according to your evaluation of the situation (only you know what kind of area you lived in etc) there was no real danger to her walking home alone. The impression I got from your writing, however, is that you didn't think that was completely safe at the time. So my conclusion would be that your behaviour wasn't perfect either and shouldn't be set as an example. But it was good food for thought, thanks.

  19. Functional Adult Woman Here says:

    Most of the comments here, show that American men are good men and have been correctly trained by women over the centuries and decades leading up til now.

    When a group of men agree that knowing what restaurant they want to go to for dinner is "dominant" and their wives agreeing to that is "submissive" then we knew our work is done!

    Thankyou Gentleman.

    I've travelled all over the world and men elsewhere (the brutes among them) would laugh at this. These are the type of men that define dominance and submission in neglectful, controlling or abusive ways, and oftentimes their cultures reinforce that.

    I'm one of those people who react negatively to the word "submissive" precisely BECAUSE I've lived in cultures where the word carries a much darker meaning than just "decide where you want to go for dinner". LOL!

    But seeing how American men use the word – I have no problem with it all, though it will take me some time for me to become conditioned to it. And considering that I still travel a lot, I suppose I will never become truly comfortable with it.

    It's always refreshing to return home – to a place where men are generally equitable and fair.

    It's ironic that some American men claim to want Asian women because they are "more submissive" and some Asian women claim to want North American or Western European men because they are more "equal and fair" in a marriage.

    We've come a long way baby.

    Confidunce's point about women wanting "decisive" men but not wanting to be told what to do – the 2 have nothing to do with each other.

    Here's what women want: As adults we get educated, trained in a profession, work and take care of ourselves. That's what adults do. We want a man who does the same. There are so many confused, wishy washy guys out there. When we say we want a "decisive man" that means we want a man who has his life together and doesn't need us to "mommy" him – like V points out the Beta Chumps who want their women to make them sammiches and probably NEED them to do their laundry.

    That's not a man, that's a child. His woman is not a wife or girlfriend, she's a baby-sitter.

    You'll find it's often the men who DON'T have their lives together that try to boss around their women – their making up for their personal failures.

    A man who is decisive ABOUT HIS OWN LIFE, and has his act together, has no NEED to boss someone else around.

    This is the kind of a man we want.

    In other words – a functional adult.

    Flahute, may I ask why you think "men should come first" and marriage should not be "equal"?

    You cite your wife responding to you taking charge in the bedroom and needing a shoulder to cry on from time to time as evidence for these assertions. I fail to see why.

    Men also need shoulders to cry on, or perhaps to brood on if they are not comfortable with crying – we all need emotional support. Men also like it when women "take charge" in the bedroom by climbing on top or pushing them down in order to lick them everywhere.

    I fail to see the need for emotional support or the preference for an assertive bed partner to be any sort of evidence that "men come first" or "marriage should not be equal".

  20. Athol Kay says:

    Hi FAW, you may like this earlier post http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/03/dominace-and-submission-in-marriage.html

    I don't disagree with much that you say in terms of the differences in culture, however please bear in mind that the "where to go for dinner" is the sort of thing that Game has extensively studied. We just know on a sheer practical level that adding a sense of dominance over a woman that she responds better to us sexually.

  21. Functional American Femme says:

    I'm just surprised to learn that American men are so insecure that something as simple as having an opinion about which restaurant they want to eat at is considered "dominant".

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    {At admin. I think the "a" word in my previous moniker was causing it to get held up in moderation so I changed it.}

  22. Athol Kay says:

    "Adult" wasn't holding it up, I just have older posts on comment moderation seeing that's where evil spammers tend to attack you most.

    You have it backwards anyway. It's not so much that say I feel a need to boss Jennifer around, it's that she responds to me sexually when she does get a little bit pushed around. That's why I do it. I tried being equal and fair for years and we had an okay relationship and once I started taking charge it got a lot better for both of us.

  23. Functional American Femme says:

    OK but my point is: knowing which restaurant you want to eat at, and stating as much, does NOT qualify as "dominant" or "pushing someone around".

    It's normal, healthy, decisive, adult behaviour.

    That's all.

  24. Athol Kay says:

    And chicks dig it. :-D

  25. Functional American Femme says:

    Yes, chicks dig normal, healthy, functional, adult behaviour from men. But what I'm saying is that this is nothing "special". It's normal, adult behaviour that my parents have raised me, my sisters and my brothers to acquire as we grew into adulthood. If they didn't raise us like this, then they didn't do their job as parents.

    So, what I'm getting at is this: since when did normal, healthy, functional adult behaviour come to be viewed as "dominant" or even as "masculine" in American culture?

    What happened, because me and my family appearantly missed the memo.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Deansdale, I think you're over-stressing things, but your two rules are very true.

    Functional, God bless your parents, because game is basically a way of teaching healthy behavior to men that haven't gotten it. You're lucky.

  27. Anonymous says:

    Good for you, Functional.

    Thing is, equality does NOT mean trying to force your wife to have the same number of decisions as you do! If she doesn't know or care where you go to eat, then YOU decide. Having an equal number of decisions isn't equality; valuing each others' voices is. I don't like really dominant men, but I'd be plenty comfortable with leaving many decisions to him.

    Jennifer 6

  28. Anonymous says:

    "One important rule to remember: if she asks you about anything (where to go out to eat, if the 2 of you should buy sthg or whatever) you MUST BE DECISIVE. Never ask back. Never tell her you "want what she wants". Even if it doesn't matter to you at all, make a decision and stick to it.
    If she disagrees or whines just stick to what you've said and tell her she can do what she wants but you'll do what you've decided to do – and be prepared to calmly act on your words"

    That's typical alpha-scare nonsense. God forbid she choose the restaurant, you may lose your status; give me a break. Your first two rules are great, but chill.

    "What I am finding as I learn more about how women think and what makes them tick and tingle, is how biology will dictate behavior no matter what women think. This should come as no surprise to many of you. She may have this ideology of equality, but that is not how things play out in reality"

    Um, biology dictates that women are attracted to strong men, NOT that all women want to be dominated; you'd better get out of that phase of thinking. If she wants a marriage of equality, then she wants one; she may be confused about what equality actually means or actually want your leadership, but that's not for you to decide.

    "However, the idea that men are first, women second just does not sit well with her ego"

    That's because it's BS. It's true, she does need you, and her emotional needs require you to be strong. But they don't automatically require you to be the boss.

    "In my sad-bastard experience, some girls' "feminism" (note the quotes) is in conflict with what she wants on a different level. E.g., girls say they want a decisive man, but they don't like being told what to do.

    Athol, I think this post deserves a cross-reference to your earlier post on dealing with indecisive women. The crucial upshot to that post — find a way to be decisive and strong without pitting yourself against your girl's own free will — is even more crucial when dealing with women who are either constitutionally unsubmissive or merely unsubmissive at that moment."

    Now THAT'S a smart post!

    Functional, once again, you're awesome. I don't like dominance, and many women don't. But the ones who do may just need a man with a stronger attitude than most because they've been particularly soaked with feminism, and require a strong jerk out of it *shrugs* Who knows? I generally find the need for dominance, for the man to lead and rule first in everything, as a weakness in a woman, wrought by evolutionary biology and the world's fallen state. Other times it's just a woman's personality; she doesn't care about being as decisive as he is.

    Jennifer 6

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