Not Everything Is A Fitness Test

When a woman presents her ass to you and requests you pay attention to it, it’s not because she’s completely morally bankrupt, or a spoiled rotten child,  it’s because she wants you to hit on her.
Seriously… what husband passes up being opened in a sexual context by their wife for the opportunity to be offended by it?
Not everything is a fitness test, but acting like everything is will tear apart even a good, loving, functional relationship. And then you’ll be divorced. Way to go Men’s Rights.
I thought the original post I’ve linked to was bad enough, but the comments are disheartening in the extreme. I don’t see how anyone with a happy marriage is going to want to get involved with the maelstrom of rage and hate that is Men’s Rights. Some of that is going to flow over and affect your own relationship.
Really, I’d like to help change laws etc some are clearly terrible, but I just find myself repulsed by the overall rhetoric of negativity in Men’s Rights writing.
I know I know, I’m a scab for crossing the picket line of the Marriage Strike and liking it. Cue shaming language in the comments…

Comments

  1. Pol Mordreth says:

    Well, Athol, Yes and no.

    Sometimes its a shit test, and sometimes its a request for a good healthy rogering, and sometimes its a request for a compliment at 34 weeks pregnant and feeling like there are japanese whaling boats circling the house. (heh)

    The problem is, if it's a shit test, and you fail, the next one will be a shit test, not a request for laying pipe. And so on, and so on…. you have to be able to recognize and beat the fitness tests in order to get to the point that you can reply with the caveman routine. (and that is the best way iv'e found to respond.. pick her up, throw her on the bed and peel the offending article off, and… do what comes naturally)

    Unfortunately too many men I know never pass the first fitness test, so all they see are fitness tests.

    Regards,
    Pol

  2. Anonymous says:

    Thinking about this, I may have had an ephiphay.

    Of course, the right answer (if your wife asks you anyway) to the "Does this dress make my ass look fat" question is to distractedly say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, were you saying something" while staring wolfishly at her ass. It's the complete Alpha+Beta response (dismiss any shittest, control the interaction, make her feel comfortable about her place in your life).

    I forget where I read it (a link from MMSL I think), but I loved the description of a shittest as "her rubbing up against your masculinity." It's the equivalent of you feeling her up. She's just trying to provoke an alpha response so she can enjoy it. Not a problem for me…

    So why do the guys at The Spearhead have so much trouble with it?

    Light bulb.

    They're pure-betas. No inherent alpha to them. The male equivalent of Andrea Dworkin pissed that men like to look at pretty girls.

  3. Anonymous says:

    "I forget where I read it (a link from MMSL I think)"

    Found it – StageTwo.wordpress.com. Gotta give credit where it's due.

  4. Athol, I often disagree with a lot of what you write here. (I'm not personally a big believer in male dominant/female submissive dynamic as the default norm in straight relationships.) That said, at the end of the day, I do admire you for a couple of reasons.

    For starters, you understand that if you want somehting in your life, you have to respect it. If you want love and sex, you have to respect the person who's going to provide it for you. You can't blatantly hate all women, and then look for a woman to love and lust after you. After all, no man wants to have sex with or love a woman who hates all women.

    Secondly, you understand that if you want something, you have to work for it. Maintaining relationships takes work. It can be fun work, and sometimes it can feel more like play. But you still have to put in the effort. A lot of the men at the Spear Head seem bitter about bein celibate. But from the negative way they talk about all women, I wonder if they'd be willing to put in any effort into a relationship with a woman.

  5. Miles Anderson says:

    My read on a lot of the MRA types is that they hate women. I think they tend to be older and have had a bad experience and now are out to "fuck those cunts". Nothing really positive can come of that. FWIW you don't have to be married to also enjoy the women you are hanging out with. In fact if you are not enjoying them I think you are making a mistake. As the song goes "watch what you are doin' with your time".

  6. Athol Kay says:

    Thanks for kind comments, much appreciated.

    Space – got to understand with the male/dominant female/submissive stuff that I don't think every relationship needs to be that way. I just think that most run best that way.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Athol:

    No.
    Ultimately your support for reforming unjust laws cannot be tied to how bitter you think some MRA's are, or how angry they are, or whatever. Because overall marriage is dying, and there's a backlash among men a'brewin that will probably go a bit too far in the opposite direction unless the more rational guys such as you provide their muscle to helping to reform at least the worst of these things.

    Then there's the Spearhead itself. Needless to say there's a tremendous difference between the tone of articles and comments there and the tone of a place like the Fathers and Families site or the National Coalition for Free Men. Though Welmer is usually pretty reasonable, and about 1/2 the other bloggers are reasonable the comments section of the Spearhead has been a pretty much free for all that has mostly leaned towards the misogynist side for about 9 months now. In short, TSP does not represent the more moderate end of the MRA spectrum, and its unfair to paint all MRA's with that brush. And I sure as heck hope I don't have to bring up whacky and hate filled web feminists of which there are plenty, Ginmar and Heart probably being the most infamous.

    Lastly, I'd like to say two things:

    1. Not everyone at the Spearhead has trouble getting laid. Many of them do, however, have tremendous trust issues with women and hence they TEND not to have LTR's.
    2. Paul Elam is rather popular with women because he has such a strong frame. However, in a relationship his very direct /honest approach will only appeal to the relatively few girls who have a straightforward communication style. The others will be turned on by his dominance, but most will tire quickly of him never playing their games even for fun.

    I don't hold the average females propensity for mild shit tests against her, and I enjoy teasing. IF a woman asked me if her pants made her ass look fat (unless her tone indicated vulnerability) I'd probably say something to the effect of "It's not your pants, dear!". But then, I'm incorrigible like that. :)

    Clarence

  8. Athol Kay says:

    Well if the Spearhead comments have been let to run for that long, it's only because it's been allowed to and therefore encouraged to by omission.

    I'll look into some of the other places you mentioned. Thanks.

  9. It's tough for a single guy (or I suspect gal). The sides are vitriolic and brutal, and the laws are meant to create division and divorce. I honestly think the laws were created to limit the number of children born and to weaken the family.

    I have come to the conclusion that men and women are and have been at war since the beginning. Marriage is some kind of negotiated settlement between two of the various tribes. In the Christian ethic, this is a means of ascending physical sex and creating one new flesh. So, I would have to guess, that well married people are no longer in that same sort of contention (though we all know that it still goes on, but in a personal arena rather than in the open social one). Is that like the notion not to argue about the kids in front of the kids (presenting a unified front).

    I have to assume both married men and married women have to do more than negotiate for themselves. I have to guess that you have to begin choosing and deselecting friends by how well they support or if they harm the marriage? If you (both) have surrendered, you can't have active rebels on your team.

  10. Athol Kay says:

    I think you do have to be very careful about friends supporting or harming your own marriage. Divorce is socially contagious and having either your wife hanging out with all purpose bitches or you with all purpose pricks isn't going to set the scene very well for life continuing on together.

  11. YES! THIS! Thank you Athol for being a voice of reason. Literally I think of turning into some kind of dominatrix feminist after reading some of the vitrolic tripe written on MRA blogs. Thank you for believing, and proving by your marriage with Jen that women aren't all skanky whores out to destroy men.

  12. Anonymous says:

    V,

    I think there's a bit of false equivalence going on here.

    For all some MRA's say – the movement has no real power.
    Meanwhile one can find equally dismissive and hateful stuff on feminists blogs, and yet these are the people writing the laws that are messing up many a family and many a father. And better yet, feminism claims to be a 'gender equality' movement. I suppose if your idea of gender equality is that only women's problems matter or that any problems men have are only caused by other men, (PHMT!)then feminism in its current form is for you.

    If you'd not hate, I recommend just being a dominatrix. Plus, you could take out any frustrations in a safe, sane, and consensual manner ;)

    Clarence

  13. Anonymous says:

    The MRA stuff is, I think, the first rumblings of the next Great Beta Revolt. Those happen whenever a polygamous/hypergamous society get's out of hand. Right now, the men complaining are mostly the lesser betas, but the course we're on will grow their numbers and expand their reach into the more capable, more motivated upper ranks.

    There's an old saying that monogamy is a deal between rich men and poor men. The rich men agree not to take all the women, and the poor men agree not to revolt and kill all the rich men. Replace rich and poor with alpha and beta and you have the picture of where feminism is leading up. Which is revoking the deal, since women feel like they weren't consulted in it.

    And sorry ladies, you weren't consulted, but the deal worked out was still in your best interests too. Scrapping monogamy is a bad, bad idea.

    We don't have to go there. There's still time – barely – to turn around. Dalrock (I think) had a ploygamy/hypergamy chart. Marriage 1.0 was at a stable position on the chart. We're pushing ourselves off the right hand edge of that stability – if we go much farther, our society will quickly slide down the slope to the next stable position, which is mostly indistinguishable from a primitive, tribal warlordism.

    That's no place we want to be. Todays PUAs are living in an artificial bubble, where they can "game" women by the bushel without being subject to violent reprisals from other men. That's an unstable situtation, and the MRA/Spearhead rumblings are the first warnings. Their carosel riding women are living in their own bubble, where the vestiges of civlization still let them have a say in matters. But civilization can't survive without monogamy, and without civilzation women will be returned to chatel status, the property of whatever group of men is strong enough to claim them.

    Look at it this way: the guys on Spearhead right now are the ones who will complain about the problem. The next generation won't bother complaining, they'll just shoot, rape, pillage, and move on.

    The universe is giving Western Civilization the ultimate shit test. I hope like hell that we pass it.

  14. Anonymous says:

    Anon@1:40 – so Thunderdome days are soon upon us? Finally, I can use my gun collection – bring it on, bitches!!! Just kidding…

    Correct me if I'm wrong (I am a female, after all) – always thought men had to be dragged, cajoled and shamed into marriage by ring/baby hungry women. Forced to give up their carefree bachelor days; forced to give up all the nubile young flesh and settle for the dreariness of monogamy. Well, at least that's what they always said.

    So now you have more choices (and so do we!), but it's not working out so well for you?

    Men! What do they want?

  15. Anonymous says:

    "Men! What do they want?"

    Not you, lady. Most definitely not you.

  16. Deansdale says:

    The Spearhead is not that bad. It's a PC liberal thing to label everything as "hate". 99% of them don't hate women, it's just of them have a low/mixed opinion on them. That's not hatred, that's realism :) Women have been pedestalized for so long that this pendulum swings back effect is unavoidable. When men find out they have been pedestalizing people who ain't worth it they naturally turn jaded and cynical.

    It's interesting to watch guys who don't understand game talking about handling fitness tests. If you know that a fitness test is there to test your fitness all the other explanations seem really, really stupid. And the "solutions" too. Be strictly honest or tell her you won't answer such questions… Are you always this rigid?! I thought you are with this woman because you like her and being with her is fun.

  17. Athol Kay says:

    I think the Spearhead has gotten very lost Deansdale. I think when Welmer sides with witch burning it's time to call jump the shark time.

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/08/18/why-they-used-to-burn-witches

  18. Anonymous says:

    C'mon, Athol, Welmer has bad days just like everyone else, but he's divorced and you aren't. Don't assume that everyone is like you, or that everyone's life is like yours.

    Remember that first girl you wrote about, who deliberately ran shit tests on you until you overreacted? Imagine if you had met another one like her, instead of Jen, and that in addition to running shit tests she actually used what she learned to hurt you. Yes, there are manipulative women out there like that, I knew some back in the day. Then imagine that after dumping her, or being dumped by her, you met another one like her.

    Consider what your mindset would be if you'd spent, oh, 6 to 8 years of your life on a succession of women like your first serious date, or worse. How would you regard women? What would you believe about them? After years of multiple shit tests, yeah, a lot of things would start looking like shit tests. Sure, they need to not see things that way, but a dog that has been kicked a whole lot will look at every foot with distrust, right?

    Plus a lot of guys at MRA sites look like walking wounded to me. You haven't been through the divorce grinder, some of them have, they know things you don't, and they've been injured emotionally in ways you can't really understand.

    Friend of mine married a woman from overseas, had two children, she decided she didn't love him anymore, divorced him, took half his 401k and everything else. The first trip through Family Court he was awarded two weekends of visitation with his children per year. How do you think he regards women now? He's been to Family Court multiple times, working the system, and now he gets his children more often, but the initial setting was "you man go away".

    I can give more examples. C'mon, walk a mile in the shoes of a divorced guy, then tell me how they should just blindly trust every woman's shit test. Frankly, this posting is a disappointment.

  19. Athol Kay says:

    You're making my point though Anon. If everything looks like a shit test and you react to your partner that way, eventually you will drive them away. I'm sure you can understand that if you're wife is actually trying to please you and you bump back on her like she is testing you, that she will quickly tire of that sort of interaction.

    I've never said to blindly trust a shit test, I've said you have to figure out what is and what isn't a test and react appropriately.

    In plain english, I find myself starting to react badly to Jennifer if I spend too much time on places like The Spearhead. And she isn't changing anything about what she does, it's simply my perception of her.

  20. Anonymous says:

    athol
    I've never said to blindly trust a shit test, I've said you have to figure out what is and what isn't a test and react appropriately.

    Ok, I was wrong. But do you see how after 3 or 4 different women over 6 to 8 years who are into endless shit tests, a man would be hypersensitive about such things? Do you see how other men are different from you, and will require more proofs of trust before they can really let their guard down around a woman?

    In plain english, I find myself starting to react badly to Jennifer if I spend too much time on places like The Spearhead. And she isn't changing anything about what she does, it's simply my perception of her.

    Well, that's inside your head only. I don't find that effect on me, but that's me. Again, I think Spearhead would be better off with more married men who have a good marriage posting there.

  21. Athol Kay says:

    I have 3 other similar comments from an "Anon" at 8:18, 8:28 and 8:29 caught in the spambox. I believe the 8:31 version above is the final draft.

    Of course I get the dynamic you're talking about. I get it so much I actually start physically experiencing the sense of rage and pain associated with it. Then I have to stop myself from taking some of that out on Jennifer. I think it's bad for me and my marriage to associate with it too much.

    I'm not going to say anything on The Spearhead that I'm not already saying here.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Athol
    I have 3 other similar comments from an "Anon" at 8:18, 8:28 and 8:29 caught in the spambox. I believe the 8:31 version above is the final draft.

    Google kept telling me the posting was too long. So I rewrote it multiple times. Sorry for the redundancy, from my end the posting was being rejected.

    Of course I get the dynamic you're talking about.

    Then you should be willing to cut Welmer some slack. You should also consider cutting some of the men in pain at Spearhead some slack.

    One more thing, don't take it personally: the world isn't about you. If some men don't grasp what you are saying, it doesn't make them bad or evil, it means they are in a different situation than you are. If some men do grasp what you are saying, but have been so mistreated by a series of women over the years that they find it hard to trust any woman too much, that's not an attack on you or your wife, that's how they are in their life, don't take it so personally, ok?

    I get it so much I actually start physically experiencing the sense of rage and pain associated with it. Then I have to stop myself from taking some of that out on Jennifer. I think it's bad for me and my marriage to associate with it too much.

    Surely you are the best judge of what is good for you and your marriage. What is good for others may not be good for you, and vice versa. So for you, reading the Spearhead is not good.

    I'm not going to say anything on The Spearhead that I'm not already saying here.

    Ok. Too bad for them, but I understand. Just try to not be so quick to judge them. Many of them likely envy you and your life, but would never say so.

  23. Athol Kay says:

    Oh some of them say so.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Are you posting in this thread at Spearhead? Or is it just one of your readers?

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/08/24/is-game-in-marriage-always-worth-it/

  25. Athol Kay says:

    I had to look through the whole thing to find what you were refering to. The answer is nope not me, just looks like "Anonymous Reader" reads me, and apparently making some headway with things.

    I've commented at The Spearhead on occassion, but as an attention whore blogger I always link back to here under my own name.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Sorry, forgot how long the comments stack is. Saw a URL pointing here in a sensible one and wondered. There's several men in there, like that Australian David, making good points.

    Guess what I meant to say is that Welmer is pointing to Game in marriage as a good idea, impressive given the amount of bitterness sometimes.

  27. Athol Kay says:

    Well that's how the Spearhead started out. In the beginning it was quite positive in tone with a mix of MRA and Game. The bitterness and anger just slowly took over, mostly in the comments but increasingly in the posts.

    Now it's basically just a sort of Failblog styled thing for Awful Woman of the Day.

  28. Game is a tool that can prevent damage to a man's marriage and his life, within the limits of the current social and legal situation. So you are doing good work with this site. Thank you.

    Now it's basically just a sort of Failblog styled thing for Awful Woman of the Day.

    Previously you said that you no longer read Spearhead because it affects your mindset and how you treat your wife. I accept that. However, if that statement is true, then you can't know what Spearhead is now, because you don't read it.

    So which is it? Do you not read Spearhead, as you said before? Or do you read it?

    Game is a good tool. It's not the all-purpose wondertool that fixes everything between men and women. Game won't keep a grade school boy off of drugs if his feminist teacher regards boys that act like boys as "bad", because they don't act like girls, to pick one example.

    Welmer is dealing with a wider range of issues than how married men can get what they want in marriage. So it seems to me that many topics over there will be completely off the radar over here. One site is not better than the other, each is aimed at a different objective. You seem to want Welmer to be more like you, is that right?

    What is it you want him to do, and how do you plan to support him in that?

  29. I have about 250 blogs in my feed reader. Pretty much scan post titles. Hence it's possible to know what something is generally about without having to read the whole thing. For the most part though the real ugly is in the cooments.

    The point is if they really want to change things they need a bigger base. If they endlessly portray all women in a negative light, men that maintain positive relationships with women simply will choose not to associate with them.

    There one commentor that endlessly spams that their is no place in the MRA for women. If there is no place for my wife, there is no place for me either. We're a team.

  30. 1. You are fortunate to have been married to one woman for so long.

    2. You have no clue what other men are going through who have been hurt badly by women they trusted.

    3. You do good work in the niche of married man sex life.

    4. When you slam other men like Welmer for essentially being different from you, it is not the Alpha act you think it is, but something else.

    Conclusion: please stick to your area of expertise, and leave the hatred of men who are not like you to the feminists; they are the experts when it comes to hating men. You are an amateur.

    I hope this is clear enough. If not, I'll be glad to explain further.

  31. Anon – by saying that I hate men you're framing me as the enemy, which has been my essential concern, that MRA's also view married men as the enemy of their ends.

    My concern is that unless the MRA cannot find a way to cut the endless tone of rage and hated of women, currently married men will always steer clear of the MRA (even if the goals are in their interests). Without the joint power base of both married and single/divorced men, nothing will ever be achieved from the MRA movement.

    This is just in pure practical terms what needs to be done to change laws. You need votes and a broad platform. This is politics. You need to build colations and smile for the cameras.

    I'm hardly slamming Welmer, I'm actually trying to help him. Just that no one on the MRA side of things can see beyond the rage.

    Obviously I am still married. It's not luck.

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  1. [...] all fitness tests are equal.  Some are valid requests for help.  Others are desperate attempts by your woman to feel the original masculine strength [...]

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