Hi Athol I have admitted to my wife in the past I would like to see her getting F**ked by other men (bad idea I know),is it ok to tell her why I had these fantasies and or should I just never raise the issue with her again
I’ve been meaning to get to this topic for a while, so this is a longer reply that just the initial question. The issue is to separate the fantasy of it and the reality of it.
Many men experience the idea of their wife having sex with another man as both threatening and stressful, but also somewhat arousing as well. It’s an intense physical and emotional state.
I think the sense of threat and stress is easily understood by most people, but the sexual arousal is not. The source of the sexual arousal comes from the natural sperm warfare reaction. If another man is putting sperm into your wife’s vagina, one very biological method of trying to ensure that his sperm does not impregnate her is to flood her vagina with your own sperm. The human penis is also designed to work as a suction pump when thrust in and out of a vagina as well. So having watched another man ejaculate into your wife, the immediate best reaction to seek to avoid her getting pregnant to him, is to put your penis into her and vigorously have sex and pump his out. Plus of course dump a large as possible volume of your own semen into her. Hence the huge sense of being turned on. Even when used as a fantasy the sense of “cumming unusually hard” is experienced.
Another element of is the aspect of cultural training that the whole Hot Wife thing is sexy. There are a number of magazines and porn lines that are devoted to the Hot Wife fantasy. If you discover that you can be turned on by this scenario, there’s nearly limitless porn to support your interest. The porn supplies the turn on factor, minus the threat of her leaving, so it’s enjoyable as a turn on. It’s like chocolate cake with the calories removed.
Even general porn use can create some of this interest. You’re typically watching a boy-girl sex scene as an observer and being turned on. There’s a voyeuristic aspect to that and watching your wife and another man is a safer route to experiencing being a voyeur than peering into the bedroom windows of your neighbors. Plus your wife is generally a favorite sexual person, so it’s a little like seeing your favorite porn star doing porn in person. For men it’s a very strong visual.
If you find this thing a turn on and basically indulge the fantasy and masturbate to it, or indulge the fantasy with talk etc when having sex with your wife, you can establish a greater and greater interest and response to the fantasy. You can effectively train yourself to be responsive to the idea of another man with your wife.
Then the next step is to float the idea to your wife and try and convince her to come on board with it. Most wives are extremely resistant to it at first, in part suspecting a trick in that he wants a pass to have sex with other women, not trusting that he can handle it, not wanting sex with other men anyway or just generally fearing disease or the destruction of the marriage as a result. But assuming she can be convinced and they agree to try it, here are some potential endgames.
One: She finally does it with someone and the husband utterly flips out. I have read a few times where the husband has literally pleaded with the wife for years to do this, and on the very first occasion it happens he ends up filing for divorce in the aftermath. Once he sees her in the throes of passion under some guy, it’s just over. He can never look at her the same again. Reality bites hard sometimes.
Two: It’s all good fun and they both enjoy it, or they try it and don’t like it. But forever whatever reason, they eventually decide to stop doing it and revert to normal monogamy. That may be an easy or hard decision, or one may want to stop and the other continue but they abide by the will of the other. In short, it just stops as an activity.
Three: The wife really likes it… as in really likes it. Husband asks her to stop and she refuses. The marriage stays intact, but only because the husband cannot muster up the strength to leave. If you’re reading Penthouse Letters, the wife also gets pregnant as the cliffhanger to the story.
Four: It’s good fun for both of them and it’s going great. But then at some point the wife starts attaching to someone else and the husband is very quickly on the outside looking in. She leaves the husband either completely or in spirit. Could be the 1st guy she does, could be the 10th.
All four options play out to the same potential conclusions as cheating does, the only difference being the consent of the husband to the sex with other men. Consent does make the stopping and moving on ahead together much easier than if she had cheated. About half the drama of cheating hurting the cheated on spouse is the deceit as much as the actual sex acts. I just note the similarity of eventual outcomes.
So I tend to think of the whole Hot Wife experience as a very exciting sexual roller coaster ride, but one that can have a very concerning end. The good ending option as I see it is simply that the couple decides not to ride the roller coaster again. The bad endings are all very bad for the husband.
If you encourage your wife to sleep with a guy that has a significantly better Sex Rank than yours, it’s not up to you whether or not she stays your wife. It’s up to him and her.
The other major concern I have with the whole Hot Wife thing is that expressing interest in your wife sleeping with other men is a major display of weakness. It’s very different than the mutual aspect of swinging for example where it’s “we’ll both get some extra and it will be fun”, though the potential endgame options for swinging are much the same as for Hot Wife with the added complexity that the husband may attach to a female partner. So by telling her she can get a better guy than you to have sex with, it’s actually degrading you in her eyes.
If you’re a male 7 married to a female 7, it’s very easy to get her to sleep with someone else, just verbally degrade yourself to a 5 and find a male 8 or 9 that’s up for easy sex and promise you will hold a job and stay with her. I suspect part of the resistance by wives to doing the Hot Wife thing is that they actually like and have some respect for their husbands. They only fold and agree to it after the husband has convinced them he’s not hot and she is. That he’s not actually worthy of her respect. Just a hunch.
So there’s a mixture of turn on and danger with this lifestyle choice. I don’t deny the power of it to turn men on – that after all has very sound evolutionary psychology underpinnings. But the gamble is your long term relationship or marriage for a few nights of special thrills. And like Pandora’s Box, once this is opened up as an activity in a relationship, it’s very very hard to close it again. You’ve established precedent that it’s ok.
My advice for the reader asking the question is fairly simple. If you’re using porn that has the whole Hot Wife thing, I’d suggest stopping it. Just accept that the turn on is biologically based and a normal response to something that is properly viewed as a threat to you. You’re not weird, but this isn’t something you have to explore to be sexually happy either. If your fantasy is some hot guy banging your wife, put the work in at the gym and become your own fantasy. If you are a 7 and she is a 7 and you want to see her sexual reaction to being royally screwed by an 8 or a 9… then become that guy.
I’d also talk to her about it if you’ve floated the idea to her. I’d just frame it as “this was a fantasy that I now understand better. I thought I wanted to see you sleep with a better man, now I understand that I want to be that better man that you sleep with”. The general concern is that you want to remove from her psyche any lingering idea that you have given sleeping with other men the green light. Otherwise it may just roll around inside her mental hamster cage for a few years before she decides to surprise you with a DVD of “what you’ve always wanted to watch darling” on your birthday…
Since I’ve been trying out some of your theories I’ve sometimes managed to get up to 3 times per week, but then I get zip the next and even the week after. I now start realizing this is due to her cycle. But what behaviour / attributes are attractive to her during these 2 week around menstruation?
Another thing is that in 99% of the times I’m taking the initiative. I have no problem doing so, but sometimes it feels like she is obliging me, she doesn’t get turned on enough and it hurts as a result. When I notice this I try focusing on her, but she seems to just wants to get it over with. Recently I just break off the attempt when I notice it. It’s probably a common enough problem, but it’d nice if she’d take the initiative sometimes.
I think I see the problem. But to make things better understood, let’s put on the helmet from the Predator that we just killed with our Alpha Male bare hands and switch the vision and hearing setting to “Female”. It’s the setting after the Thermal and Ultraviolet vision settings. I have no idea why there is a “Female” setting in Predator helmets, just trust me, it’s there.
So anyway, this is how a female would perceive that second paragraph….
Another thing is that in 99% of the times I’m taking the initiative. I have no problem doing so, but sometimes it feels like she is obliging me, she doesn’t get turned on enough andit hurtsas a result. When I notice this I try focusing on her, but she seems to just wants to get it over with. Recently I just break off the attempt when I notice it. It’s probably a common enough problem, but it’d nice if she’d take the initiative sometimes.
Magically clear the problem becomes with the ”female” viewpoint. In simple behavioral terms, you are trying to gain compliance to a behavior, but you have an aversive consequence to the behavior. In short, she’s being actively trained to dislike sex with you.
Put this another way. Imagine if every time you got a blowjob, your wife gave you a low setting tazer shot to your balls. Pretty soon you would start not wanting to have any more blowjobs. She could ask you repeatedly if you wanted one and you’d be saying “I’m good on blowjobs, thanks very much. No really, I don’t even miss them.” Even if she got rid of the tazer and started offering tazer-less blowjobs, it would probably take you a while to get used to the idea of enjoying a blowjob.
The problem is usually one of simple lubrication. Doctors and nurses shove all sorts of contraptions up vaginas and while they can certainly feel weird, uncomfortable or cold (WARM THAT UP YOU BASTARD), they really should not hurt if they know what they are doing. Obviously if s-c-r-a-p-i-n-g is involved that’s not going to feel good at all, I’m talking vanilla insertion of fingers or equipment. I’ve had a few prostate exams over the years as well and to be honest despite the lack of foreplay have started to enjoy them.
So the basic solution is to make sure she is slippery enough for penetration. You have three basic options for getting her slippery; (1) her vaginal fluids, (2) saliva, (3) artificial lubricants.
Vaginal fluids are the best option here, but in some women they don’t get naturally wet until they are really turned on, and some don’t really lubricate naturally until they orgasm. So that can cause an impasse as they can’t get wet until they orgasm, and can’t orgasm until they are wet. So they say they are very tired and have got to get up early for work in the morning.
Saliva is fine as long as it is being consistently applied, it tends to dry out quickly. So you can give her oral sex just fine, but if you try the lick your fingers and go deal it’s going to be good for about 10 seconds and then that’s it. So one solution is to give her oral sex to orgasm and then she really should be pretty wet and ready for something more.
Artificial lubricants are getting really good. There are dozens to choose from and experiment with. Jennifer and I settled on KY-Liquid a while back, in part because it’s in every supermarket. The huge advantage of lube is that you can go from getting into bed together to her having an orgasm within 5-10 minutes. Most women don’t need to be wildly turned on to enjoy well lubricated fingers making circles on their clitoris, but if you do that long enough it starts to wildly turn them on. I tend not to do very much traditional foreplay, I just get her off as much as she likes.
The other advantage of lube is simple lack of chafing. A night of rough pounding does take it’s toll. A little lube may be the difference between her being ready for something tomorrow night, rather than three days later. And lets not forget the simple delights of the nights where she doesn’t want anything for herself, but doesn’t mind a little KY and me having my fun.
Here’s the situation - You discovered a clue that she might be cheating/involved with someone. But it’s not a lock that she is cheating. It’s not like the text message said “OMG I can’t wait until your cock is in me again”, it’s more like “meaningless blah blah blah”, but it’s to a guy and you suddenly get a bad vibe about it in your stomach and all the way up your back to the base of your neck. You just freaking know. Except you don’t really know for sure.
So the question is…. Is she;
(1) Cheating: The tip of an iceberg can look pretty small, but the whole iceberg under the water is enormous.
(2) Innocent: A molehill is a pretty small pile of dirt. A whole mountain though is an enormous thing of rock and is quite different from a molehill. “Meaningless blah blah blah” is in fact meaningless.
Can you see how it is possible that you can jump to the wrong conclusion? After all you only found one clue. Are you looking at the tip of an iceberg, or a molehill? Are you sure she’s cheating?
On her end she realizes that she has presented a clue that indicates she might be cheating/involved with someone else. So her choices are;
(1) Destroy The Clue: Omg omg omg that looks really bad, delete delete delete. #^%$ing #%$^ why did I do that?
(2) Deny The Clue: We are just friends, it’s nothing. This is not a clue that I am cheating or involved with some one else. It’s like a Jedi Mind Trick… these aren’t the droids you are looking for. You can go about your business.
(3) Cry Like A Bitch: Good wives who think they just accidentally misled their husband into thinking they cheated on him will utterly breakdown in shock and horror at the probable destruction of their marriage by their own hand. Unfortunately cheating wives can usually do a pretty good impression of this too. I’ve read a few stories where they even throw up at the “hurtful accusation of their husband” and it turns out that they were doing the nasty the whole time. Maybe it’s the morning sickness that makes it so realistic, I don’t know. Either way, you’ve still got nothing helpful to go on.
The trouble is none of her options really defend her against you thinking she might be cheating/involved. If she denys, well she quite possibly is lying so that’s no help. If she hides the evidence, then that’s probably because it’s just the tip of the iceberg… or a molehill she doesn’t want viewed as a tip of an iceberg. So that’s no help either. Either way she looks worse and worse and you get madder and madder. “It was nothing”, “then why did you just delete that text message?!?!?” See how that just creates a maelstrom of unprovable angst. Around and around and around with anger and tears. Wife won’t stop crying. Check.
You both need to breathe and try and regain composure. Usually on discovery of a potential cheating clue the husband becomes extremely emotional. The can either be anything from expressed as an eruption of anger, pure icy assessment, emotionally shutting down, revenge seeking, property destruction or self inflicted harm. Discovery of potential cheating always sets a man off – the wife may have just done something “dumb” that looks bad, or may have started on the road towards cheating, or be actually cheating but he will be set off about it. It’s very rare than a guy can stay calm and just politely inquire further what exactly is going on with whatever the clue is.
If it’s the tip of the iceberg and you do nothing, you will be cheated on, so you must bump back on it hard. But if it’s just a molehill and you bump back on that hard, eventually she will deeply resent the accusation that she was up to no good. Either way your marriage could suffer or end because of it.
So after the intense and expected male reaction subsides – and it’s not inappropriate to express anger verbally in discovery “who the hell are you texting so much, what is going on?” You need to breathe and get to the bottom of things. Try and objectively discover if she is involved with someone, or this is simply a dumb action on her part. In other words, are there more clues out there that support the idea that she was being involved, or are there more clues that support that she isn’t.
The old line is “trust but verify”. The solution is simply to have her turn over her phone and all her passwords to everything and start going through it all. If needed pull up phone records. Ideally she offers this straight away and says “go knock yourself out trying to find something, I’ll be at my mothers until you are done and are ready to apologize”. If she does that it’s actually a good sign.
Ideally all you find is gnawing panic that you will find something and life together continues on.
I do advising basically trusting your wife, no one can live under constant surveillance without fighting back somehow. But if you’re a basically trusting guy and you get that tingle on your sixth sense that something is not right… I’d very much pay attention to that.
I had a reader question essentially along the lines of “why is my husband attracted to other women? What do I do? Why aren’t I good enough?” Plus they are a very young couple…
Hi (young wife),
It’s actually normal for a husband to have a general sexual interest in other women. For a 20 year old husband it’s very normal. 20 year old males are basically hard wired to screw anything that moves. So in that sense it’s not “about you”. It’s just the testosterone talking in him. The husbands that don’t have a general sexual interest in other women have wives that write to me asking how to get their husbands interested in sex with them. So the good news is that your husband is heterosexual and has a pulse.
The very good news is that despite what I assume was a surprise pregnancy etc, he’s stuck with you and you guys have started making a life and family together. He very likely DOES love you, and the kids. It’s all very grown up and responsible and he’s probably pair bonded to you pretty good by now. Even 30 year old men struggle with being a grown up and fathering children.
So there is a sort of a natural conflict between wanting to do the 20 year old thing, and having to do the 30 year old thing instead. I’m sure that you feel those same feelings at times too.
So rather than frame the question as “why does he want other women / why am I not good enough?”, why not see it as “he has a high sexual drive / he’s expressing he needs help with it”.
What you can do is actively listen to him about it. You can let him vent and express frustration, but also be clear that the appropriate person to have sex with is you, that there will indeed be negative consequences for sleeping with someone other than you. Plus you have to have sex with him. If you define yourself as his sole sexual outlet, you have to be that outlet or eventually that with blow up on you.
For myself… that sort of general sexual impulse hasn’t gone away over time and I’m 40. I just know that I’m going to be happier and better off handling that impulse with my wife, than without her. Even with good pickup game it wouldn’t be possible for me to get daily sex on tap like I have now. Plus I would miss her terribly. I’m plenty pair bonded to Jennifer, but the sex drive is testosterone based and my sexual orientation is heterosexual.
So it’s all pretty normal, but it’s not always easy being good. If he can’t come to you about it, then who can he go to? The one thing to watch for though is the creation of a relationship with another woman. Flirting with 10 women is of less concern than a special female friend. Special female friend is your job.
“You’re confusing the woman being pleased with the woman being attracted.”
I think that’s worth expanding on. I know that for me, personally, I’ll often try to NOT piss her off, assuming she’ll be more open to sex if she’s “happy” with me…but then, maybe that’s the problem.”
…in part I was teasing my friend Susan Walsh. I was amused that she was clutching her pearls and telling me off about flirting when she writes about hooking up. Her blog makes me feel like an old fuddy-duddy sometimes. Even more amusing was the commenter that started somewhat slut-shaming a female friend that brought me a bagel. I the Lord of Play have used my ultra super powers of pussy control and finessed myself a free bagel. That’s right people, I had a bagel with everything and I am shameless in my enjoyment of it. Hmmmmm morally-compromised-bagel-of-the-dark-side… DROOL!
So… anyway yes – this can be a problem. In general the short term gain of submitting to her is that she is pleased by her small victory and whatever that gains her. But women are attracted to dominant men that aren’t weak. So over the long term you can destroy her sexual interest in you. Which leads to her greater and greater disdain for you and she becomes harder and harder to please.
As an example. If we were kids at school and I said to you, “please give me your lunch, it would make me happy if you gave me your lunch” it’s a clearly unreasonable request, but if you comply and hand over your lunch, we’ve established that I can make unreasonable demands on you and get them met. Fast forward a few weeks I’m going to want your lunch and $5. Fast forward a few years it’s going to be your lunch whenever I feel like it, $20 whenever I feel like it, and hold these drugs for me. You could be as nice to me as you want, I really wouldn’t give a damn what you thought you wanted. You’d simply be acting docile and submissive in order to not be abused. If my goal is to have you act docile submissive 24/7 then you’d be doing exactly what I wanted anyway. So there would be no actual need to provide you with whatever the reward you sought was.
Nice guys fold on their wives making unreasonable requests all the time and just carry out her commands. They hope sex will be forth coming, but it rarely does as she has no need to dole any out. They are already whimpering to fulfill her every wish anyway, giving them sex would only make them less motivated to do so. That just might satiate them and make them less productive. Acting like the Genie of the Lamp and granting her wishes does please her in the short term, but it does not attract her over the long term.
In some ways women make absolutely no sense on this issue, but it’s not a requirement to understand why they act as they do. Bumping back on her unreasonable demands is easily testable and generally provides an increase in her sexual interest in you. I don’t know exactly how a TV works either, but I know how to turn one on.
I would like to thank you for your regular e-mails. Thanks to your help and those of similar like-minded people, I have turned my marriage around.
I was having very little sex and being shown a great deal of disrespect from my wife. On one occasion, about 18 months ago, she even allowed another man to kiss her in front of me, and it was no small kiss. I had to intervene to stop it.
After that incident I decided I had to take control of my marriage, but had no idea of how to go about it. I was Mr Nice Guy, who did everything he could to help his wife and children. But it got me no thanks and even less respect.
I no longer defer to her, give her any special treatment or act needy. I flirt with other women and let her know about it. I ignore her constant complaining and do not let her be the centre of my life.
It has taken a while to turn things around, partly because I am a slow learner, but I am now having regular sex, twice a week, which is what I wanted. Furthermore, I am having very little moaning and complaining. I don’t think I can ever really understand women, they make no sense at all. But what you teach about being alpha definitely works. I know you also teach that there are times you should be beta too. I agree, but since I have done too much of that already, I will keep with the alpha for a while.
Although your blog is intended just for marriage, I think it should also be noted that becoming a more alpha man has benefits outside marriage, benefits you rarely mention.
For example, I have noticed that relations with my female work colleagues have improved significantly. They are treating me with much more respect than I was getting before. And I am now confident that if my wife ever decided to leave me on a Monday, I would probably be sleeping with a better looking chick by the weekend. And I think that confidence shows, my wife can can pick up on it and no longer feels so powerful. I also find myself opening up women on the street, on train and bus stations. Just about everywhere with ease. I got 50% discount on a book from the sales girl after chatting her up the other day and the girl at my works canteen gives me extra helpings every time!
Keep up the Good Work.
I do love reader success stories, email me at athol(dot)kay@gmail(dot)com.
To many men, women are frighteningly random creatures. One day they are fine, then the next mad, then horny, then sad. It’s confusing to find something that worked with her on one day, totally backfired on a different day. The answer possibly lies in not anticipating the effect of her menstrual cycle.
I work with a lot of women and after a while if I pay attention I can start telling where they are in their cycle based on the variance in mood and appearance over time. The ones on birth control are easy because my wife is on it too and I just think of them as ahead a week or whatever relative to my wife’s cycle (which I track in my planner).
It’s not as strong of an effect if they are on birth control, but it is there. Ovulation is a subtle effect, one week they come in rocking a slightly sexed up version of themselves – it’s a slightly lower cut top, the extra sheen on the lipstick, the earrings they like. Ovulation means “I spent an extra ten minutes on my appearance today just because I wanted to”. Then the next week they are a little more snippy and easily annoyed. The week after that they are “headachey”… because obviously they aren’t going to announce they are cramping up because they are on their menses to a male coworker lol. The week after that they are back to “normal” and then the cycle repeats. It’s really not rocket science to figure out where she is in her cycle if you have frequent contact with them.
I suppose I could use this information for evil, but I tend to just use it to influence my decision matrix; lets do lunch vs giving you space vs I have Motrin vs lets really push and get this done. It just makes it smoother and easier to get along. I don’t have an Excel spreadsheet of this stuff or anything creepy like that (that would make for an awkward meeting in Human Resources lol), it’s just noticeable to me these days.
I once had someone drive ten miles out of her way to bring me a bagel because I was hungry. Lower cut top, chatty as all get out, full hair takedown shakeout and redo in front of me. Ok… I really can’t tell a lie on this one…. I really like this sort of treatment lol. I tried to finesse a repeat bagel delivery the following week and was told I needed to find my own damn lunch. Week 1 Ovulation, week 2 PMS. See how that works? I just notice it better now.
Women have a predictable cycle of generalized mood and interest, but most men never bother to learn it and just think women are random. If you play hard Alpha on a women with PMS it usually backfires, if you play soft Beta on an ovulating woman it usually backfires. If your wife is ovulating, playfully chasing her, escalating to a tickle fight and trying to pull her pants off might work a treat. Trying the same thing on her when she’s PMSing… probably not so much. The same thing in the middle of her having her period is going to be… funky.
Thank you to everyone that has written to me offering proof reading over the last day or so. I have been doing little more than answering email for the last 24 hours. It is truly overwhelming support and I am genuinely touched.
At some point I just have to close the flood gates though. If you’re still interested and have waited, I’m going to close it off tomorrow afternoon when I clear email after work.