Reader Story: Kissed Another Man In Front Of Me

Dear Athol
I would like to thank you for your regular e-mails. Thanks to your help and those of similar like-minded people, I have turned my marriage around.
I was having very little sex and being shown a great deal of disrespect from my wife. On one occasion, about 18 months ago, she even allowed another man to kiss her in front of me, and it was no small kiss. I had to intervene to stop it.
After that incident I decided I had to take control of my marriage, but had no idea of how to go about it. I was Mr Nice Guy, who did everything he could to help his wife and children. But it got me no thanks and even less respect.
I no longer defer to her, give her any special treatment or act needy. I flirt with other women and let her know about it. I ignore her constant complaining and do not let her be the centre of my life.
It has taken a while to turn things around, partly because I am a slow learner, but I am now having regular sex, twice a week, which is what I wanted. Furthermore, I am having very little moaning and complaining. I don’t think I can ever really understand women, they make no sense at all. But what you teach about being alpha definitely works. I know you also teach that there are times you should be beta too. I agree, but since I have done too much of that already, I will keep with the alpha for a while.
Although your blog is intended just for marriage, I think it should also be noted that becoming a more alpha man has benefits outside marriage, benefits you rarely mention.
For example, I have noticed that relations with my female work colleagues have improved significantly. They are treating me with much more respect than I was getting before. And I am now confident that if my wife ever decided to leave me on a Monday, I would probably be sleeping with a better looking chick by the weekend. And I think that confidence shows, my wife can can pick up on it and no longer feels so powerful. I also find myself opening up women on the street, on train and bus stations. Just about everywhere with ease. I got 50% discount on a book from the sales girl after chatting her up the other day and the girl at my works canteen gives me extra helpings every time!
Keep up the Good Work.
Oldpuller
I do love reader success stories, email me at  athol(dot)kay@gmail(dot)com.

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Comments

  1. David Collard says:

    I don't think you should flirt with other women. That being said, if my wife had ever kissed another man in front of me, there would have been Hell to pay.

    Let me say something else, women will often test the boundaries. If you set loose boundaries, they will behave loosely. Tight boundaries, tight behaviour. My wife knows I expect her to maintain certain standards of dress and so on; so if we have arguments it is about something like that, not about whether she can flirt with other men. Geez, you say she kissed another man! Geez, Louise.

    If you want to make your wife jealous in a relatively harmless way, comment on the cuteness of women at work, and don't censor your reactions when you see women on TV and so on.

    I quite agree about gaming salesgirls and so on. I am very shy and polite, but sometimes I have been more brusque with such women, and they really snap to attention. It goes back to my earlier point about boundaries. Women will treat you the way you expect to be treated. They are rather brutal creatures, and if you act like a weakling, they will tread on you. Act like a boss, and they will often treat you like one. I find this with my women subordinates at work. You can get a lot of respect even from just being cool and directive. No need to rant and rave.

  2. Athol Kay says:

    Flirting is a grey area in terms of definition. To me it's all just running a form of Game. If you're essentially "cool and directive" you can turn them on just as much or even more than trying to chat them up anyway.

    If the problem with flirting is that you're creating attraction in other women, then that creates a double bind in that becoming an all purpose better man will also create attraction in other women anyway.

    The key is not to care whether they are attracted or not.

  3. Xander says:

    Congratulations to the writer on his success. But one word of caution: don't let it go to your head. If I were in your position I would be very angry with my wife. Letting go of the infidelity would be very hard for me. I'd want a revenge fuck, frankly.

    Here's an important question: have you extracted an apology from her? I'm not asking if you've made her go through the ceremony of saying sorry, or if she's beaten you to the punch with some superficial remorse. I mean, have you sat her down, told her that you're furious (which means something now that you're an alpha), and made her feel worse about herself than she was willing to volunteer? Do so. It will probably be cathartic. Do it once in a big way, and the anger won't keep leaking out of you at unexpected times. It will also preempt your need to find a revenge fuck when the shopgirl seems a little too open to your manly presence. As an added bonus, a little calmly-asserted fury will probably boost your alpha cred even more.

    In other words, it's great that you're the alpha in the marriage now. Leverage that into some catharsis so that you're no longer haunted by your beta days.

  4. Dream_Puppy says:

    I really want to know more details about how this guy's WIFE kissed another guy in front of him. What the hell? Was this for some sort of magic show? This stuff boggles my brain.

    If I was that guy, I'd sit the woman down and say: "If you ever disrespect me like that again, I will leave you."

    If my husband did that, especially in FRONT of me, I'd leave him. And I am completely and utterly head over heels in love. But that would just about do it. I'm more sickened by the disrespect than the infidelity.

  5. elhaf says:

    I think the guy did the minimum negative response, which is to reassess the importance of the relationship, which allowed him space to be more alpha without worrying about the risk, which seems with instruction to have fixed the problem, so no worries now in my book.

    What he said is true about it carrying over to other areas. I just shot a two-pointer into a trash can in a meeting, which clearly impressed one of the young marketing girls, and then I followed it up with bouncing one off the rim and into the can. This raised my esteem greatly I think and can pay dividends down the line when I need something done or just to have someone have my back.

  6. Anonymous says:

    "I no longer defer to her, give her any special treatment or act needy. I flirt with other women and let her know about it. I ignore her constant complaining and do not let her be the centre of my life."

    The guy sounds like a total asshole now. I don't know what was wrong with his relationship before, but couldn't he have found a way to win his wife's respect without acting like he doesn't care about her and without blatantly flirting with other women?

    Is that really the behavior that results in a mature, loving relationship? Athol, you endorse this???

  7. Anonymous says:

    anon 4:32, did you read the email? the guy tried the nice guy, "mature loving relationship" that you seem to be picturing, and his wife basically CHEATED ON HIM IN FRONT OF HIM

    he's changed his behavior 180 degrees, and his wife responded by changing her behavior 180 degrees

    reap what you sow…

  8. Susan Walsh says:

    I don't think I can ever really understand women, they make no sense at all.
    LOL, it's true. You guys are better off having coping strategies rather than spinning your wheels trying to make sense of our emotions. We can't even do that.

    Ah, I am getting a definite sense that this guy might cheat. And I don't mean kiss cheat, I mean cheat cheat. Or perhaps just leave his wife. Maybe she deserves it, I don't know.

  9. Athol Kay says:

    I know a few more details that I can't really share.

    However it's my opinion that the circumstances of the wifes kiss essentially ended whatever form their marriage was taking. I really do mean ended it. I believe he has acted with remarkable restraint and forgiveness, while also ensuring that she turn her attention back to him.

    He may come across as unkind to with her, but apparently that is what she responds to. It's not a requirement that he be "pleasing" to build attraction in her. He'd clearly tried being sweet and gentle with her and the result was obvious.

    He may cheat on her. But then so what, that's a natural risk of learning Game that everyone that learns it needs to decide about. I know I had to.

  10. Anonymous says:

    It all sounds so manipulative, so false, a form of game playing. By the time you marry someone, shouldn't you be past playing games? Is marriage no more mature than high school relationships?

    Athol, in your comment above, you state: "He may cheat on her. But then so what?"

    Excuse me. So what??? In the world of relationships, somehow 2 wrongs make a right?

    If he cheats on her as a result of "Game" learned from you, have you really helped their marriage? Is that how you solve relationship problems?

    @Susan Walsh – I get a definite sense hubby plans to cheat too. And Athol here is practically giving him permission to do so, probably just what he wanted. His sexual mentor saying about cheating "so what?" is akin to an "Attaboy, go for it!"

    @Anonymous 5:57 – Yes, what she did was wrong, kissing another man, particularly right in front of her husband. This couple definitely has problems. But I can't imagine that him acting like a prick now is going to turn her into a loving wife. Perhaps it's having some sort of short-term positive effect because it's new, novel. But it hasn't solved whatever problems they have. Those are still there. Wouldn't be surprised to learn that wifey sees hubby's new behavior as justification for actually having an affair. It's a lot easier to cheat on an asshole husband than one who is loving and caring.

    (I am Anonymous 4:32pm.)

  11. Athol Kay says:

    Anonymous you're reading trying to be offended. I think my body of work is clearly against cheating.

    I'm making a simple observation, if you learn Game it really does work. Very often men are "good" because they simply aren't good enough with women to seduce someone else. Learning Game and skill with women creates that opportunity.

    I have described that as being tested. I'm honest in that I have made it clear that I've struggled with that myself.

    Also you are completely wrong about which husband is easier to cheat on. Completely and utterly wrong and many nice guys have learned that too late and to their horror.

  12. David Collard says:

    Absolutely, Athol. Anonymous is seriously kidding him or herself. It is "assholes" who don't get cheated on, to use the American idiom. And nice guys come last in marriage. I have never found that being a nice guy works on its own. I think what works is being a mixture of nice and tough with your wife. That is what has worked for me. You need both, but you definitely won't get anywhere being a "nice guy" alone.

    There may have been some husbands who were cheated on by their wives because they were huge bastards. But ten times that number will have been cheated on by their wives because they acted like wimps.

    I once cuckolded a man. He was a nice guy, I really liked him. But his wife still cheated on him with me. Everybody knew what his problem was – he was weak with his wife.

  13. Anonymous says:

    """
    It all sounds so manipulative, so false, a form of game playing. By the time you marry someone, shouldn't you be past playing games? Is marriage no more mature than high school relationships?
    """

    there is no way you're actually blind to the millions of games girlfriends/wives ROUTINELY play… are you being serious here?

  14. Anonymous says:

    @David and Athol – You both say that the nice guy is more likely to get cheated on than the "tough" guy. Interesting theory.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on the other side of the equation. It's obvious I'm a woman. How should I act if I don't want to get cheated on?

    (I am Anonymous 4:32pm.)

  15. Athol Kay says:

    Hi Anon – it's really not a theory about the nice guys getting the short end of the stick. The nice guy experience absolutely hammers home that women aren't sexually interested in nice guys and prefer the bad boys. Seriously have you even talked to one man about this?

    Women that don't want to be cheated on need to be careful with the selection of their primary partner, some men clearly have more opportunities for extra marital sex than others, also she needs to offer a good sexual connection to him and be firm that she would end things / react very negatively if he cheats on her.

  16. Xander says:

    @Anon 4:32:

    Obviously there's no single easy answer. But I think the basic answer lies in understanding two types of cheating.

    1. Unfulfilled Needs Cheating: This is where one spouse or the other is deprived of sex and emotional intimacy. Their natural response is to fulfill those needs elsewhere. While yes, it does count as cheating, this is the less morally-blameworthy form of cheating. Because it's often the other spouse who is "cheating" the marriage by depriving it of the things that make up love. (Love is Commitment, Intimacy, and Passion.)

    2. Opportunistic Cheating: This is the situation wheer a spouse cheats on the other spouse even though there's nothing objectively wrong at home. People often do it for no other reason than because they need variety in their life and they think they can get away with it. Which is why I will never allow my wife to have a job with a lot of travel requirements.

    Identifying the solution to #1 is easy — if you're depriving your spouse of intimacy, stop it. The solution to #2 is harder because there's less of a discrete cause. Really, the advice for women is the same as the advice for men: make sure that you are the best possible thing your spouse could get. I.e., are you staying in shape? Are you putting out enough? Of course life has its ups and downs, but still too many people let themselves go for no objectively acceptable reason. In this vein, I highly recommend Athol's posts on the sexual marketplace.

  17. David Collard says:

    I can't be of much help. I am never tempted to "cheat" on my wife. Or only ever very slightly. My wife and I are both really conservative, risk-averse, Catholics. As Woody Allen said, "Catholics are like pigeons. They mate for life."

    Most men want to make their wives happy, and this is a mistake because, with all due respect, women's emotions seem to veer wildly in a matter of minutes. Blaming yourself for your wife's moods is like blaming yourself for the weather.

    As for how a wife avoids being "cheated" on, try to choose a man who turns you on, but doesn't seem to be a "man-whore" type. My father cheated on my mother. I think this was partly because 1) Dad had opportunities, he was a minor public figure, 2) Dad seemed to be the polygamous type, 3) he was masculine looking and quite handsome, 4) maybe Mum gave him a hard time for being from the wrong social class.

    I am not unlike my Dad, but I don't seem to have the desire for other women. I am a one woman man. Athol sounds the same. Try to find a man like that. Some quite attractive men only want one woman. If he is happy with her, he will not stray.

  18. Anonymous says:

    I read all the comments with great interest and have to take issue with some of the things said. Please see below:

    @Anonymous 1:24 – "there is no way you're actually blind to the millions of games girlfriends/wives ROUTINELY play… are you being serious here?"

    Yes, I'm being serious. Game playing in relationships is high school stuff. I don't play games with my husband, and he doesn't play games with me. We never have. Our relationship is based on honesty. We're partners and best friends. We don't need the drama and insincerity of game playing when we can just be ourselves and happily function like a winning team.

    @Dave Collard – "I once cuckolded a man. He was a nice guy, I really liked him. But his wife still cheated on him with me. Everybody knew what his problem was – he was weak with his wife"

    No, the problem was you and his wife, neither of whom had the moral strength to say no to cheating. Your justification seems to be that the husband practically asked for it by being "weak with his wife."

    If you see a parked car and the owner has accidentally left the keys in the ignition, is it right to steal the car? Of course not, if you're a moral, decent person.

    And Dave, I see in your latest comment that you call yourself a "really conservative Catholic." Is that before or after you cheated with your friend's wife?

    @Athol – "The nice guy experience absolutely hammers home that women aren't sexually interested in nice guys and prefer the bad boys."

    That's quite the generalization. Not all women prefer bad boys. I know plenty of women, including myself, who are happily married to and sexual with nice guys. When dating, I always steered clear of bad boys. No interest. I like my men to be smart, funny, athletic, honest and caring. I married one who fits the bill to a tee. I am certain I'm not the only woman who values those qualities over bad boy behavior.

    @Xander – Regarding opportunistic cheating, you wrote: "Which is why I will never allow my wife to have a job with a lot of travel requirements."

    Are we talking about your wife or your young child? You would never "ALLOW" your wife? Better check the calendar my friend, it's not 1950 anymore.

    Furthermore, it's pretty telling that you don't feel confident that your wife would say no if given the opportunity to cheat. Sounds like a very trusting relationship. Not.

    (I am Anonymous 4:32 p.m.)

  19. Athol Kay says:

    Anon – "Furthermore, it's pretty telling that you don't feel confident that your wife would say no if given the opportunity to cheat. Sounds like a very trusting relationship. Not."

    If Xander has been cheated on by his wife, that is a very vicious thing to say to him don't you think. Perhaps she didn't say no. Perhaps he resists the idea of a traveling wife from experience.

    And yes I am of course generalizing here. The Alpha Traits build attraction and the Beta ones comfort. You need both to sustain a marriage. It's difficult to put my entire viewpoint into individual comments without generalizing.

  20. David Collard says:

    It is 2010 where I live, and there are plenty of things I don't "allow" my wife to do.

    I cuckolded that man about 30 years ago. It was a mistake. I assume, Anon, that you have never made a mistake?

  21. Xander says:

    Anon 4:32:

    Yes, "allow." There are a lot of things I won't "allow" my wife to do. Kissing another man springs to mind. And if she does them anyway, well, then she won't be my wife anymore. Stop acting scandalized, because you know damn well there are things you would never "allow" your husband to do. There's a big difference between saying you won't allow your spouse to do something — because then they forfeit the right to be your spouse — and "controlling" someone as though they have no free will. So I'm immediately suspicious of any woman who bucks at certain restrictions while hiding behind the aegis of progressive politics.

    It is ironic that you're growing hysterical in response to a comment I left to you about preventing a spouse from cheating. I don't trust men who travel a lot not to cheat on their wives, either. I would see no objection to a woman saying the same thing to a man: you may not take this job with heavy travel requirements if you want me to remain married to you.

    The point is that you're being deliberately naive. Entering a relationship is about making a certain set of tradeoffs. Yes, they implicate your "freedom," but that's the tradeoff.

    As for your last comment: You're right. It is very telling that I don't trust my wife to cheat in certain situations. Because Athol is right — I've done the "be a Nice Guy, trust your wife, never impose restrictions on her because THAT'S SEXIST" thing before, and I've been burned badly. Which is why she is not allowed to be in those situations. No getting drunk alone with another man. No extensive travel. No inviting a man into the house unless I know about it. Etc.

    People often cheat when given the opportunity. That includes women.

  22. David Collard says:

    I expect a lot from my wife. If you expect little, you will get little, and many wives will not respect you. Perhaps because you seem not to care, or because you seem wimpy and weak.

    My wife is very responsive to my wishes, on the whole. Maybe we are an unusual couple, but it works for us. She usually lets me know where she is and where she is going. She wears clothes I approve of. I expect her to function as a wife and mother. I expect reasonable compliance in the bedroom. Despite all my demanding, old-fashioned and "sexist" attitudes, we are pretty happy most of the time, and we are going for a country trip this week in honour of her 50th birthday. We have been married for nearly 25 years.

    Young husbands believing PC bullshit about what works in a marriage have been very ill served by the culture. I hope they all wake up before it is too late.

  23. Anonymous says:

    @David and @Xander – It's so offensive to hear phrasing like "I don't allow my wife…" I think most American women would feel "Them's fighting words!"

    I'm not saying that you and your wife shouldn't have strong feelings on what is inappropriate behavior in your relationship. But the way you express them sounds like you are talking about a child upon whom you've opposed your rules, not an adult who is your equal partner.

    If you care to share, I would be very curious to know what country you each live in or nationality you are. I'm American, as you can probably tell. I'm guessing you're not and perhaps much of what we are debating here has more to do with our cultural backgrounds than the difference between male/female thinking.

    (I am Anonymous 4:32 p.m.)

  24. Xander says:

    I'm American. East Coast, to be more specific.

  25. David Collard says:

    I am an Australian. My wife is my wife, not an "equal partner". If you find that shocking, I sympathise, but that is my view.

  26. Badger Nation says:

    "@David and @Xander – It's so offensive to hear phrasing like "I don't allow my wife…" I think most American women would feel "Them's fighting words!""

    I totally agree, in both directions. I cringe when I hear men say their wife won't "let them" watch the game, go fishing or whatever. Sometimes I have the guts to ask them why someone else has veto power over their life.

    Then again, a LOT of people seek to be controlled in their relationships (cf hopeless beta males, or any woman dating an abusive partner).

  27. David Collard says:

    My wife often asks my permission to do various things, such as spending money.

  28. Xander says:

    "I totally agree, in both directions. I cringe when I hear men say their wife won't 'let them' watch the game, go fishing or whatever. Sometimes I have the guts to ask them why someone else has veto power over their life."

    This is what I'm talking about. There is a big fat difference between (1) things that don't implicate the marriage, e.g., "my wife won't let me go fishing" or "my husband won't let me go to the spa," and (2) things that do implicate the marriage by virtue of their conduciveness to cheating, e.g., extensive travel or long-distance relationships, going out drinking with members of the opposite sex, etc. Not "allowing" your spouse to do the former is controlling. Not "allowing" your spouse to do the latter is just a condition of your own fidelity. That's the whole point of a marriage: my wife gives up her freedom to act like a single person in exchange for me giving up the same thing.

    There is nothing objectionable about this. When a person acts as though these two categories are the same category, I am immediately suspicious of her motivations. This objection that Anon 4:32 and Badger Nation are raising is the same objection that adulterers and brats everywhere hide behind to justify their behavior. The biggest difference is that many women go the extra step of couching the objection in the rhetoric of the women's rights movement — as though demanding fidelity is somehow chauvinistic.

    Actually I'm going to remove the qualification above regarding "by virtue of their conduciveness to cheating." Anything that significantly implicates the security of the marriage is fair game for ultimatums. For example, if a couple doesn't make a lot of money, I think it is fair for each spouse not to "allow" the other to go buy a new sports car without talking it out first.

    My point is that this knee-jerk, ideologically-motivated reaction that Anon 4:32 especially has raised ignores the reality of what people everywhere need in their relationships. Anon 4:32: you can't seriously tell me that you wouldn't be furious with your husband if he came home at 2:00 in the morning, without having called all day, and said that he was out drinking all night with a female co-worker. Or that he wouldn't be furious with you for doing the same thing.

    I know I would be furious in that situation. And that kind of stress something I choose not to abide in my relationship with my S.O. So I preempt it by making it very clear what is and is not okay in order to have a relationship with me.

  29. Anonymous says:

    PT 1:

    @Athol – "The nice guy experience absolutely hammers home that women aren't sexually interested in nice guys and prefer the bad boys."

    This, this, this. BTDT.

    I beta'ed my way through my 15 year marriage. Thinking gee, if I'm just "nicer", work harder to bring home shiny things, try to figure out her moods and adjust my behavior to "keep her happy" then things will surely work out and we can have a great marriage. WRONG.

    Surely she will appreciate all my hard work to support the family and the work which allows her to be a SAHM mom. No. She started sleeping with her friend's husband, in our house, flaunted it around the whole neighborhood. Wouldn't stop even when confronted.

    I still hadn't learned, I continued to try to "win her back" by being even extra super nice. "Let me show you how nice I am = in wife having affair mind "Cool! I can continue sleeping around and this dumba@@ husband of mine will continue to pay my bills and facilitate because he is too scared to lose me to stop me."

    She kept on keeping on. In fact I can look back now and see how pathetic and unattractive my desperate attempts to reason with her at that time were. Dude, when they are riding the c""k carousel and all hopped up on dopamine. Logic and reason have no bearing.

    My brother finally gave sage advice. STOP BEING A F'ING DOORMAT. THROW HER ASS OUT. WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE NOW? What indeed. Guess what? The night I said, "I AM DONE WITH YOUR SHIT, I AM DIVORCING YOU." Wow, come to Jesus time. That all stopped the A dead in it's tracks. Plus the threat of e-mailing every family in the neighborhood directory with copies of all the intercepted little high schoolish love notes. Yeah Nuclear Option. Plus informing the other man's wife and every member of my extended family of situation. Brought a lot of pressure to bear.

    Some of you may think well she had a right to do whatever she wants. I agree. But not on my dime and not to the detriment of mine or my kids health and well being. The American rule is – you can do whatever you want as long as you don't harm others and are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, good or bad.

    Anyway, I gave terms and conditions by which I would allow her a chance to save the marriage. That's right I said allow. Because, No, I did not have to allow her to continue to be in my life and I did not have to allow her to continue to be married to me. See, I get to make choices too!

    I would address my issues. Yeah I had some but no I was not Attila the Hun, drinking, drugging, sleeping around, hitting, just being Mr. Un-sexy Beta for the most part. (Heck if I was Attila I bet this wouldn't have happened.)

    Believe me with two kids and 15 years I wanted to save it. After two more years of struggle, counseling, me reading about 15 Oprah-ish relationship books, etc. – she didn't step up to the plate. (Yes I realize me reading those books was pretty beta – give me some slack I'm learning)

    That or, so much damage had been done to the family and humiliations inflicted on me that it was probably too late. Plus knowing that she did what she did to end our marriage and had dreams of running off with other dude and making some kind of twisted Brady Bunch scenario, that kind of kills it for you as far as feeling like you can move forward with this person and plan some kind of future together again. Oh yeah, plus the previous unknown infidelities that came to light from almost the get go. Can you say stillborn marriage?

  30. Anonymous says:

    PT 1:

    @Athol – "The nice guy experience absolutely hammers home that women aren't sexually interested in nice guys and prefer the bad boys." This, this, this. BTDT.

    I beta'ed my way through my 15 year marriage. Thinking gee, if I'm just "nicer", work harder to bring home shiny things, try to figure out her moods and adjust my behavior to "keep her happy" then things will surely work out and we can have a great marriage. WRONG.

    Surely she will appreciate all my hard work to support the family and the work which allows her to be a SAHM mom. No. She started sleeping with her friend's husband, in our house, flaunted it around the whole neighborhood. Wouldn't stop even when confronted.

    I still hadn't learned, I continued to try to "win her back" by being even extra super nice. "Let me show you how nice I am = in wife having affair mind "Cool! I can continue sleeping around and this dumba@@ husband of mine will continue to pay my bills and facilitate because he is too scared to lose me to stop me."

    She kept on keeping on. In fact I can look back now and see how pathetic and unattractive my desperate attempts to reason with her at that time were. Dude, when they are riding the c""k carousel and all hopped up on dopamine. Logic and reason have no bearing.

  31. Anonymous says:

    PT 2:

    My brother finally gave sage advice. STOP BEING A F'ING DOORMAT. THROW HER ASS OUT. WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE NOW? What indeed. Guess what? The night I said, "I AM DONE WITH YOUR SHIT, I AM DIVORCING YOU." Wow, come to Jesus time. That all stopped the A dead in it's tracks. Plus the threat of e-mailing every family in the neighborhood directory with copies of all the intercepted little high schoolish love notes. Yeah Nuclear Option. Plus informing the other man's wife and every member of my extended family of situation. Brought a lot of pressure to bear.

    Some of you may think well she had a right to do whatever she wants. I agree. But not on my dime and not to the detriment of mine or my kids health and well being. The American rule is – you can do whatever you want as long as you don't harm others and are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, good or bad.

    Anyway, I gave terms and conditions by which I would allow her a chance to save the marriage. That's right I said allow. Because, No, I did not have to allow her to continue to be in my life and I did not have to allow her to continue to be married to me. See, I get to make choices too!

    I would address my issues. Yeah I had some but no I was not Attila the Hun, drinking, drugging, sleeping around, hitting, just being Mr. Un-sexy Beta for the most part. (Heck if I was Attila I bet this wouldn't have happened.)

    Believe me with two kids and 15 years I wanted to save it. After two more years of struggle, counseling, me reading about 15 Oprah-ish relationship books, etc. – she didn't step up to the plate. (Yes I realize me reading those books was pretty beta – give me some slack I'm learning)

  32. Anonymous says:

    PT3:

    That or, so much damage had been done to the family and humiliations inflicted on me that it was probably too late. Plus knowing that she did what she did to end our marriage and had dreams of running off with other dude and making some kind of twisted Brady Bunch scenario, that kind of kills it for you as far as feeling like you can move forward with this person and plan some kind of future together again. Oh yeah, plus the previous unknown infidelities that came to light from almost the get go. Can you say stillborn marriage?

    Yes I failed at the most critical task of all, appropriate wife selection.

    Her Brady Bunch plan fell apart because she played the soul mate card with him and he played the "Um I was just having some on the side card, please don't tell my wife on me…"

    Whoops she realized that escape plan A, wasn't going to work with him and she had pretty much burned all bridges with me and my sons. Um, yeah she told my little boys all about it. Nice move there. I hated to see this all happen to us and to her, I hate to see anyone I care about self destruct.

    Now, if I had come down HARD from day one when I found out about this, we might have had a chance. But like a dope, in the face of this, when it all tumbled out, I tried even harder to be an understanding nice guy and that allowed the damage to the family unit to pile up and pile up until it was buried.

    Why? Because she saw me as pathetic and weak, which IS the way I was acting at that time. But hey, sorry, infidelity by the person you love most on earth, and having your life blown up in a couple days time kind of turns you into a basket case for a bit. If you haven't walked in those shoes, and I hope you never do, then just take it from me, it messes you up. I don't care how cool you think you are, it really knocks you into the dirt for a long time.

  33. Anonymous says:

    PT 4:

    Well, I wish I knew this information (and a lot of the stuff on this blog) 5 years ago. I likely wouldn't be a divorced single dad. I could have taken action that would have changed my problem behaviors (Mr. Beta) and gave our ship a course correction to better waters.

    When the dust settled, I kept the house, kids and loot – yay me. But I would have much preferred to give my kids a non-broken home and parents who had a good marriage which I think is the greatest gift you can give your kids. They don't give a hoot about the x-box, they just want to come from a decent, intact, home life.

    My attitude now is that you have to be with someone who values the relationship a little more that you do. In your couple's equation one of you is just a little more in love and someone a little less. And the one who is a little less is the one who to a great degree controls the dynamic of the relationship.

    I think it is incumbent upon the man to be the "little less" one. Even if only from an exterior presentation. I believe the attitude should be loving, caring but firm and protective of the family unit, up to and including – hey wife that behavior your about to do – you know – the one that has the potential to blow this family to shreds, not acceptable. And vice-versa, if I'm about to embark on a course of action that would lead to family ruin, I would expect the wife to not just let it slide.

    If you want to remain married then those actions or behaviors that are not acceptable need to be addressed pronto, worked out together (or sometimes alone – if your behavior is the problem) to get the relationship to a spot where it's a good place for you both to be. That DOES mean that sometimes, no you don't get to do what you want.

    Thinking otherwise is the really immature attitude. Setting boundaries that protect the family and sometimes reeling your partner back in (husband to wife or wife to husband) when they go off the rails and preferably before that happens,is the mature and loving thing to do. For you, for her for the kids.

  34. Anonymous says:

    PT 5:

    If you asked my ex-wife now she will tell you the same. This was the greatest F up ever in her life, she wishes she could have her family back, she wishes she could take it all back, she wishes someone, anyone, would have stopped her before it was too late. Live and learn. Wish I would have played it differently and maybe I could have done that, stopped it before it was too late.

    If you value your family and marriage then you better take steps to protect it. Whether it's an interloper or just switching work to the 3rd shift hours that would upset the apple cart.

    Do not delude yourself into thinking that setting boundaries on your partners behavior or other decisions that can negatively impact the stability of the family (especially if you have kids) is sexist, patriarchal, whatever.

    No, it's common sense ladies and gents. You made a tremendous commitment and investment in this other person and relationship, you have little human lives (kids) involved, you have financial implications and a huge emotional investment in protecting it.

    "I'll do what I want."
    "I can't tell him/her what to do/what I need to make this work. (set healthy boundaries)."
    "None of your business."
    "That's private."
    "You can't tell me what to do."

    Are all expressions and thoughts that are the road to ruin. Even if you are well intentioned and trying to do what you think is the right thing – they lead to no good place in the long run.

  35. Anonymous says:

    PT 6:

    Bottom line, sometimes your partner will not protect the relationship and family. You need to keep an eye out, be the best spouse you can be and be prepared to step up hard to protect it when your partner can't or won't. That is if you care about staying married and being monogamous.

    Sorry if some of this sounds a little mad, it's all still somewhat recent. I would just hate, to see anyone else go through this or even approach being in this kind of mess for lack of knowledge or wrong ideas about what it can really be like down in the trenches or dealing with this kind of issue in particular.

    Now if you and your spouse are "soul mates" never have problems, never have marital interlopers prowling around the edges, have transcended all your own personal faults, foibles and human weaknesses and live in problem free wedded bliss then God bless you and please introduce me to one of your single sisters.

  36. Anonymous says:

    @Dave Collard – "My wife often asks my permission to do various things, such as spending money."

    Ah, Dave, we finally have something in common. My 12-year-old daughter does exactly the same thing!

    @Xander – "Anon 4:32: you can't seriously tell me that you wouldn't be furious with your husband if he came home at 2:00 in the morning, without having called all day and said that he was out drinking all night with a female co-worker."

    Of course, I would be furious. Most people would agree, that's not acceptable behavior for a husband or a wife. But it's a far cry from the type of controlling statement you made earlier "…which is why I will never allow my wife to have a job with a lot of travel requirements."

    @Anonymous PT 1-6 – Your story is sad and complex. You have my sympathy. Sounds like you've truly been through hell. I can't pretend to know why your marriage fell apart, why your wife acted so selfishly, or what you could have done differently. But I doubt that you simply adopting Athol's alpha-role behaviors would have been enough to change the final outcome.

    As for me, just for the record, I am no idealistic 20-something who believes marriage is a fairy tale. Like Xander, Dave, and Anon. PT 1-6, I speak from experience.

    My husband and I have been very happily married for 22 years and have two terrific kids. We treat each other with respect and kindness and have never cared who is the alpha and who is the beta in the relationship. We are equal partners, working together to raise our children and build a quality life for them and for us. That's what works for us.

    (I am Anonymous 4:32 p.m.)

  37. Xander says:

    "But it's a far cry from the type of controlling statement you made earlier '…which is why I will never allow my wife to have a job with a lot of travel requirements.'"

    No, it's not. It may confuse you because it affects a career choice, but they are qualitatively the same thing. Frequent business travel makes people have affairs and adds stress to a marriage, which I won't abide. Any woman who marries me gives up her right to embark on careers that involve frequent travel or long-term stays abroad.

  38. Xander says:

    PS – I speak from experience, too. Assumptions will only get you in trouble.

  39. Anonymous says:

    Well my marriage broke up from a confluence of factors: perfect storm.

    1. Wife from home where mother cheated on father for years, ran off and abandoned her kids.
    2. Wife had major blame and anger towards her dad for that. Even though honestly he's one heck of a good man.
    3. Unplanned early, young pregnancy on our part. Dumb decision for both of us. I made the decision to "do the right thing" get married make a life together. That's how I rolled.
    4. Me too stupid in my twenties to recognize that all those background issues were going to come back in spades later. You know "Hey I'm 20-something doesn't love conquer all?" No it does not.
    5. Me being what I will call too beta contributed to the spiral. I really believe that is true knowing our whole history.
    6. Infidelity on her part from about the beginning of the marriage. "Doh, I could'a had a V-8"
    7. Mother-law, same as mentioned above, aiding and abetting all this.
    8. I got passive aggressive and hid in work to avoid explosive confrontations and her rage attacks which I think were really echoes from childhood anger over her own home life. Then I got to where yelling back was my only way to avoid the conflict. Not productive.

    You name it, I went through it. Heck I'm not even sure my kids are biologically mine, not even the first one. But I love 'em like crazy so I'm not even going to bother testing.

    Ya know, the usual. But I still believe in marriage, love, commitment and monogamy. I just aware that next time around there are things I need to be doing to give my wife what she needs and also I need to do a better job of selecting someone with the same values and similar background as me (my parents married forever and in love – no drama – great people) to better my chances. I don't think I had a chance in this one with this many cards against me.

    Although I do have a lot of cards against me now in the dating market: "Hi I'm recently 40, divorced and have two teenage sons that I have full custody of, wanna go for a coffee?" Hehe.

    For the record – have buried the hatchet with ex – get along with her very civilly and keep it all cool for the kids. I'm trying very hard to work with sons so that they can have a positive view of mom beyond these escapades.

    (I am anon PT 1-6)

  40. Athol Kay says:

    Just curious Anon 4:32, why are you even here? You do realize I get near daily emails from men saying that "it's working!!!"

    PT – great retelling of your story, I believe I will piece that together into a post. It's valuable. Obviously you'd rather not have had to live it.

  41. Anonymous says:

    @Athol

    Anon PT 1-6

    I got more on it. If you'd like, I can detail the story out later this week, email it to you and then you can use what might be helpful for others. At least if I and others can learn some things from my mistakes then some good will have come of the drama.

  42. Athol Kay says:

    That would be wonderful.

  43. Anonymous says:

    "Just curious Anon 4:32, why are you even here? You do realize I get near daily emails from men saying that "it's working!!!""

    @Athol – A friend and I trade links to interesting blogs. He sent me the link to yours. I love to read. I subscribe to probably 50+ different blogs. Most are related to my profession. I scan them, rarely comment. Yours was about sex, a fun departure from my usual work-related reading. I thought it might give me insights into how men think. Now I'm wondering if I was better off not knowing.

    I thought some of your posts made good suggestions, like this one.
    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/11/breaking-out-of-no-sex-rut-in-just-30.html

    Others struck me as nonsense, like this one.
    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/11/learn-her-cycle-and-adjust-your.html

    I liked your ideas when I thought being alpha for a man equaled being confident and secure. Lately, the definition of alpha has become increasingly chauvinistic and pushes for those more traditional roles of man-in-charge and woman-better-obey. As you can tell, I find that viewpoint offensive.

    Yes, Athol, I believe you when you say you get near daily emails from men telling you your advice is working. But you do realize that you're only hearing from the men. The wives may in fact have a different opinion about their husband's new, demanding demeanor and I-got-game flirtatious ways, but you won't hear from them.

    Sorry if I've offended you with my female perspective on your posts. That wasn't my intent. I just spoke up when I disagreed with some of your assertions and the comments of some of your subscribers. Hope you don't mind if I continue reading your blog, at least for a little while longer.

    (I am Anonymous 4:32 p.m.)

  44. Athol Kay says:

    Anon 4:32 you aren't offending at all.

    It may interest you that I actually have more female readers than male ones if the Alexa/Amazon profile is correct. It's not so much "the female perspective" that you're bringing, just you're bringing up things that many men have learned the hard way they have to unlearn or suffer watching the women they love bed down with other men.

    Even if you do hold the "female perspective", you've wasted no time telling us off for having a male perspective.

    Take some time with the blog. It's extremely helpful to start from the beginning and get a handle on the key concepts of Alpha Traits, Beta Traits, Sex Rank, Body Agenda and the legal defintion of marriage.

    And for the record I do get emails from women, they are running at about 25-30% of the total. The same percentage offered editing help with my book.

    The first dozen or so posts are critical.

  45. BobW says:

    Anonymous 4:32 p.m.:

    Larry Niven commented that English speakers use the word "my" to refer to at least three different relations:

    1) My car; posession
    2) My wife: relation
    3) My arm: identity

    He built a short story on it explaining why these very powerful aliens would never try to conquer Earth. (In addition to our sun being too bright for them.)

    Similarly, people may use the word "allow" to refer to different aspects of the necessary loss of autonomy in marriage.

    1) Allow my spouse to cheat
    2) Allow my spouse to go on vacation to Jamaica with her single friends and without me
    3) Allow me to take a job requiring a great deal of travel
    4) Allow me to go to a conference on iOS programming for four days

    You can see clear differences (though 1 and 2 are uncomfortably similar) but people use the same word.

    I just used example four. I like to think that I contribute more than a paycheck, but my wife said she could handle things alone for that long.

    I suggest that perhaps you misunderstand how these "fighting words" are meant.

  46. Tinderbox says:

    Shame shame shame at the men who have experiences and opinions that don't align with her feminist-approved feel-good niceties. I'd like to get her husband alone and a little drunk to hear the other side of that perfect story of wedded bliss.

    Also interesting to hear of DC's past indiscretion, coming as it does from such a proponent of religious virtue. Though you post under a pseudonym, it took guts to admit to that. As a single guy, I'm a bit conflicted on the topic. In general, I have little compunction about playing with a married woman not connected to my social circles. After all, if she wants to cheat then she'll find someone else if not me, and I wasn't the one who took vows to stay true to her husband. However, I would not do it if I knew the couple well, nor would I ever mess around with a friend's wife.

    I consider cheating wives to be incredibly destructive, however the problem lies with her lack of character and her husband's lack of relationship game, not with me letting her be part of the variety of available women I as a bachelor choose to date. Our society will be much better off as more men are able to rediscover the concepts of masculinity that have been lost over the last 40 years. Men need to choose better women and depedestalize them in order to keep their families on track. Relationship game is a big part of that, and Athol is a good resource for it.

    That may be against my immediate prurient interests as a freedom-loving bachelor, but I have a higher interest in seeing that the next generations are raised in stable, well-adjusted traditional families. After all, these are the kids who will be running things someday.

  47. elhaf says:

    Why is Anonymous 4:32 here? Obviously, she's attracted to all the alpha male bad-boy she doesn't get at home.

  48. Anonymous says:

    Well, I am the guy who wrote this post,I am really surprised at how many comments there are.

    For those of you who think I should have just divorced her, my reasons are this. I still have two children of school age, there are a lot of drugs in the neighbourhood. They have never been on them, but that is perhaps because I can intervene really quick if they start to stray. Something that is difficult to do unless you are very close to them. There are also financial and other implications.

    I don't think people really understand the full implications a break up has on the children. I work in health and social care and have qualifications in this field. Endless researches have been done over the years and have come to the same conclusion, even in some of the most abusive relationships, the effect a divorce can have on the emotional and psychological well being of a child is usually worse than the damage that would be done if the parents stayed together. Essentially their whole world falls apart.

    Now some people have said that I may well have an affair myself. I have not to date. However, I have gamed women to the point that I am reasonably sure they would sleep with me. I would say as a rough estimate, three or four that I could now lay with reasonable ease. Not counting the ones in work, but I wouldn't go with someone at work, its too messy. Some other sites advise that a man should have sex with other women to become more alpha and get rid of "oneitis". I think though that if my wife starts her no sex nonsense again to try and exert power and control over me, then maybe I will, it is better than surrendering and becoming her beta boy. Of course, if she found out, I would loose my marriage, but it would be lost if I became beta anyway, so it is worth the risk.

    I see a lot of things now that I could not see before, and to be honest, I do get to feel a little down over it. One of the women in work has just divorced her husband because she says they are just like brother and sister or good friends.

    He is one of the nicest guys I have ever known. He picks the kids up from school and paid an entertainer for one of his children's birthday party at her house, even though he is divorced and living elsewhere. The man is a really hard worker and a good provider. I don't understand it, such a nice guy. I would trust him with my life.

    Now if you think I am comfortable with having to change my whole personality to save my marriage, you are wrong, it does not come easy, and my marriage is still not ideal, but it is improving, slowly, bit by bit.

    Athol, if you want to verify for your readers that I am who I say I am, feel free to e-mail me.

  49. Athol Kay says:

    There are so many comments because you took the middle road and managed to pull off a recovery in your marriage.

    On one hand people want to tell you off for being male and having alpha traits and not just folding up to her whims.

    On the other hand some men want you to take utter revenge on her for her actions and destroy the marriage.

    You took the middle road and won. It's a big victory in my book.

  50. Anonymous says:

    Thanks for everything Athol

  51. Anonymous says:

    “I believe you should place a woman on a pedestal – high enough so you can look up her dress.” – Steve Martin

  52. Anonymous says:

    Anon did not come here to shame with feminist tactics, and I agree with her; this blog has mostly good and some off-putting points. I don't wish for this man to have either folded or gotten revenge, but his approach was not at all the "middle" one; the middle would resemble Athol's more. This guy's attitude stunk: he basically started giving his wife the same kind of disrespect (or almost as bad) that she gave him. Flirting with other women and then bragging to her about it? Cheerfully thinking about the women he could sleep with if his marriage ended? Those are not the thoughts of a committed husband.

    "anon 4:32, did you read the email? the guy tried the nice guy, "mature loving relationship" that you seem to be picturing, and his wife basically CHEATED ON HIM IN FRONT OF HIM"

    No he didn't, he tried supplicating himself and being her errand boy; that's NOT a mature relationship. Now he's gone the other road. If he tried flirting partly out of a justified feeling of revenge, well, either way I cannot entirely blame him for going strongly in the reverse direction for a while. But this marriage needs to be healthier than what's been posted so far.

    I agree with Xander: it's perfectly reasonable to set boundaries on each other. And there should be a difference between "gaming" and PLAYING games; flirting is playing games.

    Jennifer 6

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