It’s OK To Be A Man

Men are taller than women.

If I just post that and walk away, someone is going to jump into the comments and point out that I am small minded and offensive. Clearly there some very tall women and simply stating that “men are taller than women” is simply sexist. My poor reader simply couldn’t imagine living with such a bigot as myself who believes that men are taller than women. After all she is quite tall herself and she knows a man that is of average height that she is taller than.

Then should I happen to mention that I am quite tall and Jennifer quite short… well then some readers wonder if Jennifer is okay trapped in a marriage with my offensive tallness. Frankly it seems like I may be making her short on purpose. I might be despicable.

So anyway… the truth is just as we all know. There are some taller men and some shorter men, plus some taller women and some shorter women. There are two bell curves of height – one for men and one for women and the male bell curve is clearly higher than the female one.

So another statement…

Women are attracted to taller men. Especially men taller than themselves.

This is again quite true. It’s a fairly rare couple where the wife is taller than the husband, the overwhelming majority of couples have a taller husband than wife. Far more so than random chance would suggest.


And on to a more pointed statement…

Men are more naturally dominant than women in personal relationships.

If I just post that and walk away, someone is going to jump into the comments and point out that I am small minded and offensive. Clearly there some very dominant women and simply stating that “men are more naturally dominant than women” is simply sexist. My poor reader simply couldn’t imagine living with such a bigot as myself who believes that men are more dominant than women. After all she is quite dominant herself and she knows a man that is submissive that she is more dominant than.

Then should I happen to mention that I am quite dominant and Jennifer quite submissive… well then some readers wonder if Jennifer is okay trapped in a marriage with my offensive dominance. Frankly it seems like I may be making her submissive on purpose. I might be despicable.

So anyway… the truth is just as we all know. There are some dominant men and some submissive men, plus some dominant women and some submissive women. There are two bell curves of dominance and submission – one for men and one for women, but the male bell curve is clearly more dominant and the female more submissive.

So another statement…

Women are attracted to dominant men. Especially men more dominant than themselves.

I’m not saying that it’s right, it’s certainly not politically correct to say that either. If you are reading into the word “dominant” a mandate for violence or cruelty to someone submissive you are very purposely misunderstanding my overall approach on this blog. I’m just saying that for most men tending towards a dominant social interaction with a woman is a natural state of affairs
 
To be sure many women have suffered violence or cruelty and now respond highly negatively to men who act with a normal male zest towards a woman. There are good reasons for concern about those that advance a male dominant approach to relationships, including myself. Misunderstanding male social dominance as “thugs up bitches down” leads to bad endgames for all concerned.
 
But for the last several decades the overall impression given of men is that we are some kind of badly designed female. It’s like men are Humans 1.0 and women are Humans 2.0. All that testosterone surging through our veins is, well…. wrong. If men and women are ever to be truly equal, then men must be shorter.
 
Personally I grow tired of being asked to stoop for marital equality to appease women I’m not married to. The most radical thought I express on this blog is this…
 
It’s ok to be a man.
 
Leadership. Protection. Fidelity. Trust. Integrity. Perseverance. Strength. Power. Construction. Humor. Justice. Exploration. Determination. Sacrifice. Shepherding. Husbandry. Invention. Courage. Bravery. Valiance. Fathering. Kindness.
 
If you’re married and you are conflicted about your own value as a male, you will inadvertently display weakness and a lack of confidence. The exact opposite of what the majority of women want from you.
 
It’s ok to be a man. Really.

Comments

  1. Brilliant. This needs to be shared with every single adolescent male growing up in today's society. And most of those who have already grown up, but not "manned up."

  2. David Collard says:

    Well put.

    Don't be sensitive to feminist commentators, Athol. Just keep telling the truth. Don't let them put you on the defensive.

    I have always been proud to be a man, and I have never apologised for it.

  3. Badger Nation says:

    Couldn't believe the farcical debate that broke out in the last thread about "your wife must hate how dominant you are, strutting around the house and insisting to be sat at the head of the table!"

    You don't have to be a PUA/gamer to get the key insight: women don't get hot for men they can control.

  4. I agree with you. To an extent.

    I also agree with this: http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html

    And this: http://havissard.tumblr.com/post/2194091409/being-a-man

    I don't know that you can make the statements you do without considering the points made in those links.

    I am attracted to tall men, and I'm attracted to dominant men, but I think the assumptions underlying what is 'manly' and 'womanly' outside of the context of sex need to be considered more carefully. Especially when it means that both sexes are being disadvantaged.

  5. namae nanka says:

    Heh, sorry for coming off like that in the previous thread. I generally don't check your site nowadays, {not because I don't like it, but marriage is a long way off for me, if ever :) }, but yesterday was a slow day for other blogs and I couldn't contain myself to do some e-thugging here when I saw a potential situation developing. :D

  6. haleyshalo says:

    Well-said, Athol. One of your top posts. :)

  7. It seems to me that this post contains THE most important idea on the blog. All the other ideas flow from it: they're just examples of how to 'identify' with maleness (and how this naturally leads to positive female responses).

    As a result I think this should definitely serve as the preface to your book!

    Ashton

  8. ironchefoklahoma says:

    Most interesting. It's important to remember that when someone disagreeing with you uses "small-minded", "sexist", or "bigot" then they're admitting that they cannot answer the argument. They're falling back on shaming language rather than engaging the ideas.

    (see also, Godwin's Law, "racist")

    Miss Milk, I'm afraid I didn't have time to listen to the TED talk but I did read the Havissard piece. And I'm afraid that it is deeply, deeply silly. Not to mention a rehash of mid-80's critiques of The Patriarchy. bell hooks and Mary Daly can duke it out over how language shapes culture for years but they still can't (won't) answer why women respond so strongly to men who behave in "traditional" roles.

    To put it more crudely: the girl in that chat room didn't twirl her hair and fiddle with shirt buttons in response to men who cry.

    Athol, the most radical thought on your blog isn't "It's OK to be a man".
    The most radical thought on your blog is (to women) "It's OK to want a man who acts like a man". Looking at yesterday's comments it's the latter that are causing the aneurysms.

  9. vasaphonia says:

    I think I strongly agree with this when it comes to sex and relationships. The problems arise when one assumes that because women are attracted by dominant men in one sphere of their life they want it in all. This is not the case, and not what you're saying, but I think this is where the fear comes from.

    Women are happy and should have the freedom to choose marriage and a dominant husband ((if they can procure one)). And I think most of the time they will. But some minorities won't, and I see feminism's goal as giving the choice. The danger in feminism comes when it takes away choices.

    There were very real hinderences towards women's rights, some leagel. The expectation was that women would behave a certain way. And the dirty truth is that many women do like to behave that way if given the choice, dominant male husband etc. But the other side of the coin is that when will probably becomes should the fun is taken away.

    Half of the glory of submission or what have you is that it is something given, suprising in a a way and not "expected." I find guys that expect me and behave as in they are entilted to me being "feminine" and "submissive" are one of the biggest turn offs in the book. I have never gotten the sense from you, if anything game seems to be a way to earn that submission. And it is a way that works.

    Yes women want to be dominanted but at the end of the day they have to have the abilites and rights to be the ones to give submission. And at the end of the day if that is the case I beleive they will.

    When it is used with ill intent. And it can be. I think the one mistake people make is thinking okay game is good, power is good, it doesn't matter how I use it. In fact if i get it sometimes I should use it to take revenge on all the women who wronged me. Or the other danger is when you are using it in such a way that it makes you unable to respect the person you're using it on.

  10. Great post.

    By the way, I think women verbally disagree with the stuff on this blog in the same way we guys say, "of course I'll still respect you in the morning if we have sex on the first date, baby!"

    It's a test.

    When a woman disagrees with game principles that demonstrably work, I hear "do you really believe what you're saying, or will you buckle if I push back on you? Do you know when to do the things I secretly want you to do against my protestations?"

    Fellas, game principles don't go on hold just because we're commenting on the internet. Why do you take female commenters at their literal word?

    Ladies, you are adorable. Don't change.

  11. Susan Walsh says:

    Excellent, excellent post, Athol. I'm starting to think that women want men to be more dominant than ever – it's like we've been starved for dominance. I know many men will say we brought it on ourselves, but collective guilt aside, I predict that increasingly the most dominant males will pull even further away from the pack.
    .
    I am a foot shorter than my husband, and I think he may be making me short on purpose.

  12. Susan said "I'm starting to think that women want men to be more dominant than ever – it's like we've been starved for dominance"–I think you're on to something here, Susan. Seems to me that women today are CONSCIOUSLY seeking male dominance to a greater degree than ever before in history, at least in a long long time. For most of history, men were AUTOMATICALLY dominant just by virtue of being men and, especially, husbands. I think sociologists call this "position power." Women did not need to seek male dominance, many of them probably would have been happier with a little less of it. Then came the feminist revolution, and it became unacceptable for women to express any submissive feelings. Even 10 years ago, what Vasaphonia said: "Yes women want to be dominanted" would, even with the qualifications she added, have gotten her banned in much of polite society. Now there is a reaction, and that's why so many women are seeking super-alphas who are dominant in very obvious and sometimes crude ways, desiring to be stretched across their lovers' laps and spanked hard, etc etc.

    Anyhow, I think a whole post & discussion on the subject of dominance/submission in love & sex..what is basic wiring, what is reaction or overreaction to the suppression of the male principle in our society, etc…would be very worthwhile.

  13. Sad to say but most of what you say is true.

    Hard to believe that in the 21st Century we still have the mentality of cave men hunting for their prey/women.

    For the record, if a man wants to act dominant with me, he's out of luck!

  14. I'm starting to think that women want men to be more dominant than ever – it's like we've been starved for dominance. I know many men will say we brought it on ourselves, but collective guilt aside…

    Brought it on yourselves or not, you're right that it doesn't matter as far as how men should act. What kind of man gets all huffy if a woman finally comes to her senses. It does play a little into the girls don't know what they want meme.

    "Oh, changed your mind, eh? You do want a masculine man after all. Well, I'm sure you'll change you mind again tomorrow, Woman's perogative and all that. But no matter, I knew what you wanted all along."

    But, there is another angle. Sort of like all the other joyless scolds who prohibit or want to prohibit stuff people enjoy (beer, fast food, pole dancing…), there are those feminists who want to prohibit masculinity. Doesn't matter to them if you want it, they think it's bad for you and bad for society so they want to prosecute men who act that way – whether there are women who enjoy it or not.

    For example, Domestic Violence laws that require the Husband* to be arrested and prosecuted even if the wife is screaming at the police to leave her husband alone. In fact, the entire domestic violence debate on the last topic was a great example of how feminists are debasing the language and expanding the definition of DV to include, well, acting like a man. "Abuse" isn't limited to backhanding a woman across the room and breaking her jaw any more. Now it's being defined as, well, anything some twit thinks is "mean."

    Just like that idiot Assange is being prosecuted for "raping" two women by having consentual sex with them.

    So, women, understand, your "feminist sisters" are working very hard to deny you something you probably want. A big part of how they do it is by claiming to speak for you. If you let them, it's your fault.

    Ultimately of course, masculinity will reassert itself – matriarcal societies are eventually conquered by more masculine ones. The question is what sort of masculinity will re-emerge. A "peaceful" walk-back of feminism could restore a chivalrous society that treats women with dignity, but a scorched earth defense of "feminism" could mean a snap-back to a barbaric culture that treats women like semi-valuable livestock.

    * = they're not quite bold enough to say it has to be the husband yet, but that's what they mean.

  15. Miss Milk – I don't understand your point. Dominance and submission aren't related to the ability to express emotion and feel empathy. Bulding an emotional connection and pair bonding is all Beta male goodness.

    Thanks all for the kind comments.

  16. David Collard says:

    If a woman respects you, she will do just about anything for you. "Game" works because it subtly builds respect. And it focuses on results. Women constantly put up a smoke screen to cover their true desires, a lot of it verbal. I have had my wife swearing that she will never go to the gym again, as she is going out the door to the gym.

    Don't argue with a woman if she is upset. If she throws a tantrum, tell her she is throwing a tantrum, and she can talk to you later when she is calm. If you want her to do something, simply ask her. Don't hector her. Don't talk about dominance and leadership. Show it. Women mostly want to choose to follow, not be compelled.

    Don't fall for the line that women only want dominance in the bedroom. Dominance outside the bedroom leads to dominance in the bedroom.

    It is probably a bit off topic, but don't watch porn. Your wife is your woman.

  17. Badger Nation says:

    Athol,

    I've read the "what to do when your wife won't have sex with you" post and the post on sexual teasing. Question: do I have to kick her out of the sack, or will a simple non-response do the trick? She refused my advances for sex and then asked to be spooned. Without a word, I just rolled over and went to sleep.

  18. Badger Nation says:

    "Women mostly want to choose to follow, not be compelled."

    "Compelling" someone to do something shows that you are wrapped up in their doing whatever it is you want them to do, which means they actually have a lot of power in the situation. That runs counter to the dominant-aloofness that is so effective in social dynamics.

    I'll go with an old quote: leadership is getting people to do things they don't want to do by getting them to want to do it.

  19. Honestly, I just don't get it. I would never want to be in a relationship where I'm dominated, where someone else calls the shots.

    Why would I hand over control and decision making to someone else? I'm not a child. I'm a smart, well-educated adult who has a proven track record of making good choices in life/marriage/family/work, investments, etc.

    I own and operate a successful business. I have employees and contractors who respect me, as well as numerous customers. So why should I at the end of the work day suddenly come home and play the role of damsel in distress, incapable of making decisions for myself and my family? Why give someone else the keys when I drive just fine?

    I'm not looking to control someone else, least of all my husband. I have no need to be dominant nor dominated. I simply want control over my own life and an equal say in our family.

    And just so there's no confusion. My husband is no wimp. He's every bit as bright,capable and accomplished as me. He gets total respect from me as well as from his coworkers, friends and pretty much anyone who knows him. And since height seems to be an important issue according to Athol, yes, he's taller than me, over 6'.

    This whole dominance/submission thing sounds ridiculous to me, like some throw-back to the 1950s family structure. It would never fly in my house. Like I said, I just don't get it. And I don't think I want to.

  20. Happy Swinger Chick says:

    I am a very dominate and aggressive female. I am attracted to men who are more dominate and aggressive than I am. However, they must also be smart and have tact. I chose my husband because he is this sort of man. It takes a lot of work for him to stay the dominant one in the relationship. I am constantly challenging in every aspect of our relationship. I love that he can hold his own with me. When we are swinging I often seek out the most dominant males… If I want to play with a soft little pretty thing I will hook up with one of the millions of swinger chicks claiming to be bisexual. Man up boys… or be replaced by a strap on!

    ~Happy

  21. You don't have to get it Dana. The life you and your husband lead is up to you both.

    You are imagining things I'm saying though – it's hardly a throwback to a 1950s power structure or damsel in distress routine I'm talking about here.

    You also refuse to listen to me when I've said that this is something I've responded to in Jennfier.

  22. "I know many men will say we brought it on ourselves"

    Well, realistically speaking, who else have brought this on women, if not the women themselves?

    Höllenhund

  23. @Athol – I don't "refuse to listen" when you say that you are responding to something in Jennifer as your reason for being alpha. I get that it works for you and your wife. But it's when you generalize to say men should be dominant, as they're more naturally so, and women should be submissive, as that works best in a relationship, that I have trouble buying into the lifestyle you're preaching.

    I can't help but wonder if Jennifer was raised in a home where dad was dominant and mom was submissive. And same for you.

    I think we often recreate in our adult lives what we knew as children.

  24. Dana you would be exactly wrong on our family backgrounds. It's quite the opposite.

    You realize the target audience of the blog are men that are being sexually rejected by their wives because of the whole "nice guy" thing right?

    You're trying to correct me when I have a solution that is clearly working for these men.

  25. "It's a test.

    When a woman disagrees with game principles that demonstrably work, I hear "do you really believe what you're saying, or will you buckle if I push back on you? Do you know when to do the things I secretly want you to do against my protestations?"

    Fellas, game principles don't go on hold just because we're commenting on the internet. Why do you take female commenters at their literal word?"

    This is what worries me about the entire PUA movement. I recognise entirely that sometimes people are not completely, totally, scrupulously honest. But where exactly does this attitude stop? When a woman says she's not interested in being submissive, does one just ignore her because Women Like Being Dominated and also Women Are Unconscious Of Their True Desires? This is an entirely serious question, because so much of PUA theory is based on the maxim that one shouldn't listen to what women say. To suggest that women say they aren't submissive and wouldn't want to be dominated is just women shit testing men is to say that there's no need to ever listen to a woman's stated opinion because you know better than her what she wants, and if you just push back hard enough she'll be putty in your hands.

    As a woman who would like for people to actually treat me like a rational adult who means what she says (you know, because I am), that is kind of repulsive and frightening.

    (As for the rest, I feel like it's time to pick my battles, and this particular point is the sort of theoretical problem that can, I hope, be recognised as such by feminists and antifeminists alike.)

  26. It's a good question Sam, I think you are jumbling a few Game concepts together though. Let me come back to this as a post I think.

  27. ironchefoklahoma says:

    @Sam has an well-stated point. Does Game require its pracitioners to simply ignore womens' stated desires and run, well, Caveman Game all the time?

    I think the answer is clearly no.

    The Game tenet in question is not ignore what she says but watch what she does. For example, loudly proclaiming that you want an equal partner in your relationship but continuing to date thugs leads one to conclude that perhaps your statements don't accurately reflect your desires. Or repeatedly heaping scorn on male-dominated relationships…but hanging around on MRA/PUA blogs.

    You say you wish to be treated (inside a relationship, I'm assuming) as a "rational adult". Fair enough. Do your actions match that request? Are you attracted to men who treat you in this way?

  28. @ironchefoklahoma, you wrote: "You say you wish to be treated (inside a relationship, I'm assuming) as a "rational adult". Fair enough. Do your actions match that request? Are you attracted to men who treat you in this way?"

    My answers to your questions (even though they were directed at Sam): Yes, I wish to be treated as a rational adult, and my actions consistently match that request.

    Yes, I am attracted to men who treat me this way. I married one as a matter of fact. Conversely, I am not, and never have been, attracted to men who act superior, dominating or controlling in any way. Huge turnoff, immediate dislike.

    I have always wanted to be treated as an equal partner in my relationships, and no, I have never dated thugs. Would not even consider anyone like that. Ever.

  29. At the risk of sounding very naive, what is PUA and MRA, mentioned by Ironcheckfoklahoma and Sam?

  30. PUA = Pick Up Artist
    MRA = Men's Rights Activist

  31. "Do your actions match that request? Are you attracted to men who treat you in this way?"
    Yep, completely. I have only ever dated men who treated me this way, and men who were otherwise attractive to me became totally unattractive if they began to exhibit tendencies toward the kind of dominating assholishness a lot of MRAs/PUAs seem to think all women love.

    "Or repeatedly heaping scorn on male-dominated relationships…but
    hanging around on MRA/PUA blogs."
    I'm here because I find questions of relationship ethics really interesting and have a relentlessly curious streak.

  32. Interesting perspective. This blog post actually helps me understand your point of view better. You say that women are attracted men who are more dominant *than them*. I guess I can understand that.

    I'm personally not attracted to dominant men in the least. But if you think that means I like submissive men, that's not really the case either. I'm not a dominant personality. I can be a good leader, and I enjoy it, but I don't need to *always* be the leader. I don't like to *alwyas* be the follower either. That would just turn me cold.

    So I suppose the reason I like non-dominant men is because I'm not dominant myself. If I was more of an alpha female, I might want an alpha male who could hold me down. I guess I'm more like a delicate flower, and I only allow the gentlest gardener near me. (Only with the man of my choice, though – I'm more than capable of being a nasty beast to any guy who misreads my gentleness a weakness.)

  33. Athol Kay says:

    Space – You might be a "Switch" :-)

    You do realize I'm talking about social dominance rather than mere bossiness? You're more attracted to a man that's a CEO than a retail clerk I assume.

    If you were to have a fantasy no strings attached fling at work… would you have it with someone that was your supervisor, or with someone that reported to you?

  34. Anonymous says:

    Good article, somewhat sad and true, and very tactfully done; you did perfectly, Athol, in your respect and your acknowledgement that people should do what works and men should respond to women.

    Sam, your questions are wise indeed; men have to be careful that they don't abuse the game thing, and finding the balance between dominating and being strong has actually been a battle they've had for centuries.

    Athol, I think some women want dominant men because of the fall from Eden ("he shall rule over you"), and some want dominant men because they know they can be emotionally unstable and want to make extra sure they find a guy to withstand those storms.

    "I'm starting to think that women want men to be more dominant than ever – it's like we've been starved for dominance"

    It's a pathetic truth, and has occured because women began to fear dominance so much that they stamped out natural male strength. Now, they want it back; now, they overcompensate by looking for guys with extra dominance. And still fight them sometimes. What a mess.

    David, you do use reductionism and condescension sometimes too much. Marcus, don't be an as*hole; that doesn't attract all women, you know.

    Jennifer

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