Girls Night Out (Final GNO Post For The Moment At Least)

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post “Why Men Are So Paranoid About Girls Night Out“:
After spending all my life in the nightclub business, both in management and in ownership… I will flat out tell you that the reason I will forever remain single… is…. well… because I spent all of my life in the nightclub business. You can only follow them, join them, cock block for so long… but eventually, there will come a time when “Eve” demands that she be entitled to her “grrrrrrls night out” out without out you, lest you be branded a control freak who will not let her have any ‘fun’ with the members of the “Ya ya’s”…all of whom, I might add, are all divorced and looking for cock, and expecting your innocent princess to join them. You will be held as the enemy, preventing her from having her fun, while at the same time, trying to convince you that she is the “different” one from all of her ‘grrrrrlfriends’ who all actually starred in the latest “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas” commercial.
The years of watching married women during convention season, away from their mates…. the years of “happy hour” hand holdings under the table with a fellow co worker… and the DIVORCE PARTIES that I have personally hosted (all held by women… never have divorce parties at bars… they’re usually the ones blowing their heads off somewhere after they learned about the happy hour romance to begin with) have led me to the conclusion that absolutely NO woman who claims to be in a relationship or married is to ever……..and I mean EVER be trusted without her man for “grrrrrrls night out”.
You can argue NAWALT (Not All Women Are Like That) with me all day long…. but trust me… I’ve seen enough through my years to know that not ONE of them can be trusted.
You would be surprised as to how many of your wives tried to pick ME up once learning I was the owner….
Athol: This is a somewhat stronger comment than I would make. I would make the NAWALT argument in a general sense, but in the self-selecting group of women exhibiting disloyal behavior by purposely going to bars without their husband, it is I agree simply an unreasonable risk. I don’t balance a little red gas can on top of the electrical panel either. Bad things can happen.
The Convention Season comment is perhaps the most worrying one. It’s the perfect cover story and opportunity moment. She may even be required to go.
And yes. I’ve never heard of a man having a divorce party. Women yes, men no.


  1. Looking Glass says:

    A lot of what might have driven the comment threads is an issue of self-selection. But as more & more women exist in these packs of friends that approve of this behavior, it becomes more of a problem.

  2. A certain post from Dalrock may apply here.

    It seems to me the biggest concern is preventing access to divorced friends. As long as the divorcees are in the minority, divorce is less likely. When you have a strong group of divorce culture women palling around, there's a far increased likelihood of them convincing their friends to consider behavior dangerous to marriage.

  3. Anonymous says:

    As for banning from a GNO:

  4. Sorry Athol, but to me NAVALT is a myth.
    Right there with the Unicorn and Man-made climate change.

    I too once believed in the above, well OK not all of the above. Unicorns are just too cool to not exist. :P

    But the social engineering that for the last century has percolated throughout ALL western countries leaves females with all the Jokers and men with none.
    You have to find a saint and have the luck of her friends be saints too, to not be in constant danger of a ruined life through divorce.

    Guess it kinda makes sense for hubbies to ignore all the facts and "red pills" like DIVORCE PARTIES!
    Ignorance indeed may seem like bliss here. Though by now I wouldn´t trade it for a thousand blue pills.

  5. Athol Kay says:

    Ceer – I wrote on that about a year ago.

    You can't really forbid friendships with friends that are divorced, but you can bring up the issue of divorce and talk about it as something that is an influence.

  6. Athol Kay says:

    Hans – if all women are like that, then there's no point you even reading is blog is there?

    I'm pointing out that GNOs are a landmine to be careful of. If all women are landmines, then just avoid being in a relationship with one.

    Ignorance isn't bliss, but the red pill isn't despair either.

  7. All of my girlfriends live in a different state. For the most part I am extremely satisfied to have them all at a distance. I do miss being able to pop in once in a while. I am much safer being away from group influence. Women are VERY good at being a serious influence to their girlfriends and it is soooo easy to see how, even the most loyal of women, could be pushed into something they may never have thought otherwise to do.

    I personally REFUSE to be a part of a girls nite out, afternoon out, shopping spree etc because I know what happens. I don't want to fall into that trap.

    I have dumped a few friends over the last year because of their constant girl's nite out posts on FB. The way they insist how BAD they need to be away from their kids and husband/boyfriends.

    Girl's nite out should be more like girls nite in with husbands/boyfriends working together to be chaperons to keep the group straight and safe.

    So in all, yes we are all like that when put into a group with our peers, but some know better and choose the high road and don't do girls nite out. I will never participate in a group social event without my husband present and fully knows I expect him to be there. I am also aware he fully expects me to know he will be there no matter what.

  8. knightblaster says:

    The convention/business retreat thing is well known to be a risk. Moreso than the garden variety business trip, because convention/retreat things tend to be very heavy on social activity, and everyone is away from their spouses, often with people they will never see again, and who don't know them from Adam.

    In my experience, when you take adult humans and place them in a quasi-anonymous setting for a couple of days where there is very little downstream accountability, there is alcohol flowing, and there is a guaranteed no-strings exit … shit tends to happen.

    When I was in law school, there weren't very many relationships between the students — people were busy, and casual fling like stuff was too potentially socially smearing (law school class sizes are quite small, often under 200 per class year) for people who are going to be future professional colleagues. However, during one of the summers we had an institute in Copenhagen which was half students from my law school and half non-U.S. students from around the world (who didn't know us, and most of whom we would never see again). The degree of casual sex and outright screwing around (between the U.S. and non-U.S. students, not between the U.S. students) during those four weeks was incredible — I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it. It had the classic elements I note above: adults in a quasi-anonymous environment with little downstream accountability, plenty of alcohol, and a guaranteed no strings exit. And, yes, some of the students were married to other people.

    Environment matters, especially in one of those fairly rare anonymous no-strings social environments where people really *can* more or less "get away with it" if they want to much more easily than otherwise.

  9. Phil Mueller says:

    Classic sampling bias. Spend your whole life in the nightclub business and of course the only women you see will be those who like to hang out in nightclubs.

    He's partially right in that if you date/marry a ho, you can only cockblock for so long. Takehome message: don't look for a wife/gf at nightclubs.

  10. I think the problem is girls' night OUT, rather than just girls' night. Girls' night with my friends typically involves going to dinner and drinking a bottle of wine at someone's house. If my husband got hidden footage of what goes on, I wouldn't be embarrassed at all, but he might be bored out of his mind.

    Also, as with anything else, you have to know your wife and her friends. Some women will get catty in groups and try to undermine their friends' marriages by fueling "bitch sessions" about the husbands. But if the friends are happily married and supportive of each others' relationships, then time with the girls is a good thing. In my group of seven close friends, only two are still single, and I always come home from a reunion happy that I'm not them, and even more grateful for my husband.

  11. The MacNut says:

    Specifically Leah,the problem is Girls Night Out at a club or bar, a meat-market type environment where guys are on the make and alcohol is readily available. If you and your friends were having that bottle of wine (or two) at such a place, your husband would have good reason to be worried.

    I partly agree with Phil Mueller though, only a certain type of woman tends to want to go to a bar or club anyway, especially on a regular basis without their husband or boyfriend. I suspect a lot of such women are former party girls who "settled down" and are now bored.

  12. Jack Amok says:

    My wife has a couple of single friends from her early twenties (her and them are all in their early 40's now). One is divorced, the other never married, neither has kids.

    They are a great influence on my wife, who sees them four or five times a year, usually for lunch or occassionally for dinner (she'll typically stick around for one round of drinks afterwards, then head home). She seems to come away from these get-togethers with more energy for her role as wife and mother. She sees the sadness and emptyness of their lives, and at this stage, she's also seeing how badly their prospects have fallen off the cliff.

    One friend of hers was simply gorgeous in her twenties and well into her 30's – one of the best looking women I've ever been around. I was shocked to see her the last time she visited. She's in incredible shape – is a competitive triathalete – but she's just not that hot any more. She's gone from stunning to good looking to "she must've been something ten years ago."

    Now, my wife has held onto her looks pretty well, but she and I both know she isn't as hot as she was 10 years ago either. But I love her and, well, I still see her as beautiful. I think I've come to realize it's a trick of the mind – when I see her naked 40 year old body, to some degree my mind photoshops in her 25 year old body. I still see the hot young woman I married (granted, she does her part by staying in shape).

    Her friend doesn't have that going for her. She cast aside all her relationships in a fruitless case of "nobody's good enough for me." (and she really isn't a harpy or otherwise unpleasant person, she's actually really sweet and kind, she just was always looking for the perfect guy, and the clock ran out on her before she found him). She doesn't have anybody who looks at her and remembers her as the 10 she used to be. Every guy she dates only sees her as the 6 she's fallen too now, and the guys who are interested are no where near the quality of what she's used too.

    She's lonely and sad. My wife knows that. She also gets the message that if the Hottest Girl in Town has a miserable love life as a single woman, then life after divorce can't be quite so rosy as the EPL crowd makes it out to be.

    But,ah, this is much different than Clubbing every Friday night.

  13. I agree with the comments on sampling bias and environment. Once a month my wife and her 2-3 married girlfriends go out for a dinner and movie (With drinks at the theater) and it's no big deal.

    Women going out together to a bar, dressed to kill? Different story.


  14. Athol Kay says:

    Fabulous comment Jack.

  15. I have been lurking for a while, very interested in everything you have to say, Athol. I'm really stunned, though, by the venom of some of your readers and how much woman-hating they seem to spew. "Preventing access to divorced friends?" Seriously? Locking a woman up at home will eventually drive her to someone else. I know about this from experience.

    I attended my first GNO about a week ago. I don't drink and I was home by 9:00. I have NEVER been to a divorce party, and I have never even met anyone who has. There seems to be a misconception that a woman's friends determine if she will cheat. While I agree that you're likely to get fleas if you lie with dogs, a woman in a strong and healthy marriage just doesn't cheat because she has a few friends who lead her astray.

    I've tried some of your suggestions for strengthening my own marriage and I can tell you definitively that it takes two.

    I have been married for 23 years to the same man and we have two wonderful children. I'm a regular churchgoer. I love my husband very much. I will never leave him. Still, I haven't been faithful, but my infidelity had nothing at all to do with alcohol, GNO, or divorced friends. None of those things were even involved at all in providing the setting or the opportunity.

    Vilifying women won't make you any safer from infidelity. Of the many unfaithful waives I have spoken to, most feel that they were pushed out of their marriages by their husbands. Whether or not that is true is almost irrelevant for any man who wants to keep his wife at home. The point is that that is their perception. That is how they feel. The question to ask is what can you do to stop them from feeling like you are pushing them away. I'm pleased that Athol addresses that question in many of his posts.

    I realize that some of you may think I'm the enemy, but I'm really not. Any discussion about how to keep families together is an important one to have.

  16. Athol Kay says:

    Kat – you write a pro-cheating blog?

    I exhaust myself cleaning up the mess made by cheating.

  17. Hi Athol-I don't consider my blog to be "pro-cheating" because I don't encourage anyone to cheat. In fact, my #1 piece of advice (stated repeatedly throughout the blog is "if you haven't cheated yet, don't!" My blog is about my own experience with infidelity- yes, from the cheater's perspective. How does that negate the comment I made here?

  18. Thag Jones says:

    This just in: you won't meet a decent woman at a night club.

    Well go ahead and call the cops
    You don't meet nice girls in coffee shops…

  19. Looking Glass says:

    There definitely is self-selection for the night-club owner, but he also explains the type of women to look out for & avoid. It's good information, full stop.

    @ Kat:

    Assuming the spouse holds their marriage in regard (so they wouldn't be prone to cheat in the first place), cheating in a relationship is a sign of either a complete breakdown in communication OR putting yourself in as stupid as possible a situation and not stopping it right then. Cheating is always a failure, it's just a matter of where the failure happened (sometimes 1 choice or sometimes many, many choices, it just depends).

    Side bar: "Communication" and "Talking" are not the same. You can talk without any communication & you can communicate without ever saying a word (actually, most of your communication really is non-verbal).

    Taking these points into account, always remember that most Men get other Men. We have an understanding of what male impulses are like, thus we have an idea of where a woman is vulnerable to approach. It isn't that men don't trust women, it's Men *don't* trust Other Men with our relationships. The man that does *will* get cuckold.

    As I pointed out in one of the other threads, this isn't about the women directly. It's about boundaries of what is acceptable inside the relationship. *If* you want to risk the relationship, you don't push back on behavior that puts the relationship at risk. You don't send your man with a roll of 1's to a strip club every Friday and expect he's never going to hook up with a stripper. It's about being culpable for creating situations where cheating is far more likely to occur, whether it be short-term via alcohol or losing communication inside the relationship so "needs" will be met outside the relationship.

    Now, in all of this, Context matters the most. When & where really, really matter. If the women are all dolled up at a Bar, that's a HUGE red flag. If they're having a bottle of wine at one of their homes while the kids are out, that's something very different. Almost all of the push back from female posters in the comments has been to *intentionally* conflate what a Girl's Night Out is & is not, per what Athol had posted. Guy's have a very direct impression of what we were talking about and responding to, but it was instantly taken into a Herd Defense about any time spent among women as a group. These are also the type of outings that the Night Club owner has to deal with, which are just bad all around.

    One last thing. It's probably not said much, but, Kat, you're eventually (probably around age 18) tell your children of your infidelity. I don't know if they were born before or after, but they take the types of actions you took as *acceptable*. You'll eventually, before they're in a LTR, need to explain where you & your husband screwed up and *why*. Hiding these problems from children, when they become adults, sets them up to repeat the *exact* same behaviors. That isn't a conversation that'll be enjoyable, but it'll eventually be necessary, unless you want them to repeat the mistake.

  20. Athol Kay says:

    Kat – a cheating wife wonders why men that have been cheated on are angry?

    Are you serious?

    Simply saying "don't cheat" and then writing an entire blog about how great it is for you… the overall message is "cheating is great". Therefore you are a pro-cheating blog.

  21. Anonymous says:

    Kat said: "Of the many unfaithful waives I have spoken to, most feel that they were pushed out of their marriages by their husbands."

    Apparently not far enough.

    Thanks for the advice, though. I'm sure the fox has some great ideas on how to guard the henhouse, too.

  22. Wow. You'd rather be angry than get some real insight from a real woman on why women cheat. Ok. I'm not trying to defend my behavior here. I'm just saying that being angry and focusing on issues outside your marriage (her friends, etc.) isn't going to keep your wife at home.

  23. The MacNut says:

    Kat, you read about the Rationalization Hamster on this blog, right? About how people (women for this discussion) will rationalize the most awful behavior against other people they supposedly love so they can keep doing that behavior?

    Well Kat, it appears from your blog and your posts here that your Hamster is working overtime. Pretty much everyone here feels sorrier for your husband than for you.

  24. Hi Mac–
    I'm not expecting anyone to feel sorry for me, here or anywhere else. Don't you think it might be helpful for you gentlemen who are looking for ways to keep your wives from cheating to have some insight on why they do it, or even how? My point was that you're off the mark if you think it's about alcohol and GNO.

  25. Jack Amok says:

    Don't you think it might be helpful for you gentlemen who are looking for ways to keep your wives from cheating to have some insight on why they do it, or even how?

    Just in case there are men reading that and thinking "Hmmmm, she has a point…", well, no, she doesn't. It's not helpful to get a cheating woman's "insight" into why she cheated because… well, she's lying about it. Lying to us, lying to herself, lying to eveybody about it. That's the Hamster at work.

    Different folks have different numbered lists of rules to follow in the relationship arena, but really really high on any decent list is "don't take relationship advice from women."

    Seriously, don't. Ever. Whether you are a man or a woman. Most women simply don't understand themselves or their motivations well enough to have any real insight into why they feel the way they do (the Hamster). It's a cosmic irony that the old joke about men not understanding women is actually the opposite. Men understand women just fine (though modern indoctrination tries like mad to confuse us). It's women who don't understand themselves.

    Which is why nothing they say about their motivations can be trusted.

    * sure, there are a handful of women who do understand themselves well enough to make useful observations. But in general, they're the ones with long, stable – faithful – marriages. If your gandmother, who's been happily married to your grandfather for six decades, gives you relationship advice, you might want to pay attention to it. But if some 40-ish divocee or semi-attached party girl gives you advice… just ignore it.

  26. Phil Mueller says:

    I agree with Jack Amok's post, minus the misogynistic bias. In general it is going to be more helpful to get advice from successful long-term couples than from divorcees or cheaters (male or female). As Tolstoy says, "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

  27. Jack, I'm sorry you had an experience that made you hateful and distrustful toward women. However, to say that no woman younger than your grandma is qualified to give relationship advice of any kind to anyone is just wrong. I'm certain that reasonable people understand that. You seem to be really afraid of anyone even listening to what I might have to say. Wow. Ohhhh, I forgot for a second… In your view I'm a woman and therefore have nothing of value to add to the conversation.

  28. Phil, you don't know me, my husband or my children, yet you feel righteous in implying that my family is not happy? I'm so shocked that you gentlemen seem so afraid of me. Very strange.
    Athol, doesn't this bother you even a little bit? Is contempt prior to investigation the norm here?

  29. Kat: Well, if your husband were aware of your prowling activities, he might become unhappy, extremely unhappy! (I take it you don't have an open marriage?). This site is based on keeping marriages together, rather than just saying "screw it" – go ahead and have matrimonial anarchy, everybody!

    A person writing a a semi-porn site about their sexy cheating adventures just tends to loose credibility when trying to address a pro-marriage blog.
    Make sense?

  30. Yes, Julia, I understand exactly what you are saying. However, I hardly believe in marital anarchy. I've been married longer tham most and my family is very happy.

    If I have no credibility with any of you, ok. Go ahead and hold onto the false belief that infidelity is caused by alcohol, divorced ffriends and GNO.

  31. Anonymous says:

    Infidelity can be enabled in many ways. Having no boundaries is a start to infidelity. This particular blog was focused on one area. Whether thes etypes of GNOs enable behavior or are simply a symtoom the premise is still valid.

    Having no respect for your spouse at the expense of your own lusts may very well be fine with some folks. It is in no way pro-marriage to have a secret life of cheating. It is delusional at best. Whatever ever effort goes in to the cheating is stolen from those that deserve it. Whether they are aware of it or not. The facade is a lie. Period. If you find yourself getting tips on how to cheat your spouse that you intend to implement for that purpose, you just might be seriously fried mentally. I do think it is instructive for those men who think women do not do this stuff. This is just the next wave of how technology encourages and enables this life style.

  32. Anonymous says:


    That you promote yourself as a church going, family woman, is quite the contradiction. Lots of people go to church but that doesn't mean they are Christians. You can go to church all you want, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it somehow gives you moral authority or credit.

    You have a valid point in that alcohol, GNO and friends are not the final determining factor in if a woman cheats on her husband but they are influencing risk factors.

    Especially inappropriate friends with a fluid morality, poor boundaries and poor impulse control. Making sure not to F strange dudes in your own home out of respect for hubby does not count as good boundaries.

    Driving fast doesn't cause car crashes but it definitely increases your odds of being in one. But I know, you're thinking "Yeah but I'm a real careful driver…" Okay…

    I don't think the men here hate women at all. I don't. I appreciate you being honest about yourself. It is interesting to say the least.

    Truth or Dare Kat, does your husband know of and approve of your extramarital activities? Does he read your blog? If not, why not?

    If he does, and he's okay with it all, then it's really none of our business.

  33. Kat, I think you said it very well. You have no credibility with me. Doesn't mean I hate you or am angry with you. I just don't think you are the type of person I'm going to be taking marital advice from. Maybe that means I'll miss out on some good marital advice. It also means I'll miss out on taking advice from someone whose marriage looks completely unappealing to me. Life is a trade off that way.

  34. Athol Kay says:

    Kat – it's pretty simple, if you are doing nothing wrong, tell your husband.

    I believe he is consenting to unprotected sex with you with the understanding you are faithful to him. By cheating on him repeatedly and with high risk sexual activities like anal, he is not able to give an informed consent for sex with you.

    Quite clearly the GNO concern is related to women succumbing to momentary weaknesses and temptation. This is simply one topic among many we have covered on the blog – the blog and book full up over 500 posts, 4000 comments and 344 pages addressing female sexual needs and interests.

    It's not that we are afraid of you, it's just that we sympathize with the cheated on spouse.

  35. The MacNut says:

    The main reason your family is so happy, Kat (assuming your being truthful about that),is that they don't know about your cheating. I'm sure if they did, things would get quite ugly at home. But you know that already, don't you?

    The only practical advice one can get from you is how to get away with cheating. Which does not fit with the intent of this blog, which is to PREVENT cheating.

  36. No, Mac, the main reason my family is happy is because we share many experiences together, including a common faith (that none of us practices perfectly), I work hard to make a good home for my husband and children, we support each other,we care about and love each other, my husband and I spend time with our children, we are constantly looking for ways to strengthen our marriage (which is one reason why I came to this blog, by the way), I am honest with my husband about everything with the exception of my infidelity (which is a lot more than I can say for many friends who are faithful but they lie to their husbands about all sorts of things from how much money they spend to the secrets of their sex life that they share with others). The happiness of my family is the result of hard work, prayer, participating in a supportive community, and making an honest effort to be a better wife, mother, and woman every single day. I'm not perfect by any means, but neither are any of you folks.

    Athol — I never said I was doing nothing wrong. I do find it very interesting, though, that someone comes to your blog looking to make her marriage stronger, looking for solutions, and she's met with a "you're a sinner, so get the heck out of here" type of response.I do appreciate YOUR polite and respectful responses, and I thank you for that. Surely, I can't be the first person who admitted to infidelity who showed up here. Is this a common response? The intolerance and self-righteousness just drips from the screen. I find that if I am busy saying, "I don't want to hear what you have to say and there is nothing I can learn from you" to someone, that usually means that I can't hear anything they have to say that might help me and that I probably do have something I could learn from them.

  37. Anonymous says:

    Stop cheating on your husband and invest that effort into your marriage. Stop the blogging about infidelity and invest that effort into your marriage. The blogging you do is just a mentl form of affirmation that holds you into this addiction. I am not particularly religious but I suggest you pray to be delivered from the debaucherous life style you lead if you are. Not because it is sinful but because it is toxic to you, your family and to all those who read what you spew. You can and do have value as an example of what one should not become. Embrace that.

  38. Cara Janes says:

    Phil- You wrote: "In general it is going to be more helpful to get advice from successful long-term couples than from divorcees or cheaters (male or female)." I know Kat and her family very well, and I can tell you that both she and her husband work very hard to have a successful marriage, and they do. I don't know if I've met a more successful long-term couple.

    I wonder how many of you people who posted a response to this are cheaters. My guess is that quite a few of you are, or suspect that your spouses are, and THAT'S why you get so angry at Kat; because you're threatened by her. I don't actually think you'd care so much if it had nothing to do with you. Kind of like that guy on Glee, Karovski, who bullies Kurt for being gay, and Karovski is actually a closeted gay kid himself.

  39. Anonymous says:

    Serious question. How do you ensure that you do not give your husband an STD?

  40. Anonymous says:

    @ Cara — In your circles you may not have met a more successful couple sorry to say. That bar is too low. Have you had sex with her hubby … yet?

  41. Anonymous says:

    OMG — Kat is Caras husband. Yikes!

  42. Cara Janes: it seems a bit silly to come on a site that is very anti-adultery, link to your pro-cheat "prowling" site all under the guise of helping and then expect everyone to play nice! The wonderfulness of Kat's happy marriage is partly based on ignoring the #1 issue for most of the population – sexual fidelity. I'd be willing to bet that most people who do practice successful polyamory would agree that honesty and communication are crucial.

  43. knightblaster says:

    Kat –

    First of all this is not a Christian blog — Athol is an atheist. But, anyway, unrepentant, braggart sinners who are exalting their sinful lifestyle will, yes, get not much sympathy from Christians who point out the sin, only to be met with self-justification and a lack of repentance. That's pretty much your entire blog.

    Leaving that side issue aside, however, the main point is this: you have unilaterally robbed your husband of the right to decide whether he wants to remain married to a woman who has sex with other men. It's one thing to have an "open marriage" (Athol has, in fact, written about that on this blog). It's another to hide repeated infidelities over an extended period of time. You're taking away you husband's right to make a decision about the rest of his life with knowledge of what you are doing. At the very least that is disrespectful.

    Yes, we get it, you're bored with the sex in your marriage and you can't get your needs met there. If you are convinced of that over the course of time, following disclosure of that to your husband and trying to work it out, and it just isn't working, the unfortunate answer is divorce. It is the *honest* answer, the one that allows everyone to see what the problem is, and realize it isn't being fixed. Hiding your infidelity under the rubric of keping your family together by lying to your husband is very far from noble and is, in fact, selfish and self-serving. I suspect this is why you admit on your blog that you have not only not disclosed your goings-on with your husband, but have also not discussed it with real life friends. You have a good idea what the reactions would be.

    So, yes, a lack of courage, based on a lack of willingness to let the chips fall where they may by fessing up to the truth. And, yes, you're going to get criticized for that, and not just by the readers here.

  44. Athol Kay says:

    Cara & Kat – many of the male readers have ALREADY been cheated on. Hence their obvious upset at your rubbing their noses in it.

    The fact that you are real life friends ironically adds weight to the claim that GNO sort of thing isn't in the man's interest. No doubt Cara is the cover story for Kat cheating on her husband.

    Kat if you actually want my advice – stop cheating on your husband. You damn well know he will be devastated when he finds out.

  45. Anonymous says:

    If what you're doing isn't wrong and is in fact something to be proud of then:

    1. Inform your husband.
    2. Tell your children.
    3. Let your real life friends and family know.

    Maybe you came here because you want to stop but don't know how. Maybe this organization can help you:

  46. Jack Amok says:

    Go ahead and hold onto the false belief that infidelity is caused by alcohol, divorced ffriends and GNO.

    Again, for the men reading: infidelity is caused by a wife losing respect for her husband. A husband who lets his wife routinely get drunk at pickup joints with her on-the-prowl divorcee friends isn't doing much to earn or keep her respect. By letting her make a habit of putting herself out there on the meat market counter, he's saying he's too insecure to stop her, that he's worried if he said "no" she would leave him. Or else he's just too wimpy to stand up to her. Either way, it's a turn off, and he's letting her walk all over him. Very few women are attracted to wimpy, insecure doormats.

  47. Anonymous says:

    I want to go back to Pre-Kat.

    Jack, if your wife knows about this blog I'd recommend that she tell her single Once 10, Now 6 friend to date some of the hardcore betas (your wife can translate it into womanese) she knew 5 or 10 years ago. These guys will remember that she was hot and that they had it bad for her. Your wife's friend can use this blog to train some of them :). I'm sure a number of them were snagged by ugly, yet fertile cows years ago; but some should still be available – possibly divorced.

    I'm not sure why I feel compelled to help her out. The way you put it "the clock ran out on her before she found him" touches me.

  48. Reading Kat's comments and then a couple entries at her blog has left me with a feeling of hollow disillusionment and apathy. To read about it on Roissy is one thing. To hear it from the married woman's perspective is quite another. Nothing can compare to the power of the hamster.

  49. Looking Glass says:

    I think I can quantify the issue with Kat & Cara Jones a little more easily: you both are horrible people and nothing you say can rationalize that. You're also effectively working together to commit a felony (giving someone an STD is a legal form of assault, so there's also conspiracy aspect), completely aside from the complete lack of any moral character.

    That's why no one believes you. You can't trust anything a pathological liar says.

  50. Jack Amok says:


    "I'd recommend that she tell her single Once 10, Now 6 friend to date some of the hardcore betas (your wife can translate it into womanese) she knew 5 or 10 years ago."

    She didn't date any betas! They were all alphas, at least the ones I met. One of them was a friend of mine – my wife set them up. He was tall, good looking, well built, in decent shape, smart, responsible, and a self-made multi-millionaire (single digit millions, but good enough). He was also a fairly alpha personality (tech entrepreneur is where the money came from). What a perfect couple. When they first met, she was walking on clouds. Just sort of floated from room to room with her eight-thousand megawatt smile beaming out.

    But he fell so damned hard for her that he betaized himself (that's not the vocabulary I had for it back then, it was 12 years ago, but that's what it was). He turned into a love-struck puppy dog. It turned her off. After they broke up, she explained it to my wife this way: "He was too nice…"

    He learned his lesson (I learned the same one in my twenties). A couple of years later, he married a woman almost as hot, and they have two kids and a great life. They're both pretty happy. He's not on the market.

    The other ex that I know is also married, in his case to a former swimsuit model. I've never met her, but the pictures on Facebook are impressive.

    It's a sad story, and it is touching. I'd like to help her. But I don't think she has any ex's floating around looking to trade up. I suspect they all either ended up with decent wives or are happily cavorting with 20-somethings.

    But I do have hope for her. She's coming to understand her situation and is starting to lower her standards, but she hasn't given up and let herself go. She's fighting hard to hold onto her SMV, she'll find a decent guy stumbling out of a divorce and marry him one of these days. And I think she'll be good to him. It's too late for her to have kids, and she won't have anywhere near the life she could have had, but she won't be all alone. She's sad, but not bitter, and I think (or at least I hope) that will help her in the end.

  51. Looking Glass says:

    @ Jack Amok: If most of us knew this stuff years ago, we'd have all saved a lot of friends from screwing up good relationship possibilities. (And some of them their marriages) But, we all have to learn, and Athol can lead the way!

    @ Badger: Yeah, I made that mistake as well. I guess Roissy's maxim of "5 minutes of Alpha is more valuable than 5 years of Beta" does actually hold true for some women. It's sad, really, as her kids are going to pay the costs of those affairs with their own destroyed relationships in life.

  52. Jack, there is nothing sad about your hot freinds story.

  53. From Kat's blog in response to this thread:

    As a woman who actually does care very much about her marriage, I thought I'd join a conversation with other folks who also want strong marriages. What I learned is that I'm not welcome there. I learned that because I've cheated, there is nothing I know about keeping a marriage together than has any value to them (in spite of being married for over 20 years with no end in sight). Someone also actually said that I was not credible at all because by marriage was not appealing to him. Seriously? This came from someone who knows nothing about my marriage, except that I have been unfaithful.

    As I sat with my thoughts and feelings about the experience, it became clear to me that it's really about tolerance and learning from each other. Why is it that we have become so intolerant of people who have a different perspective and point of view?

    I've gone there and perused what's offered, and I'll break it down in small pieces exactly why I have no respect for your position and will ignore your advice:

    1) It's not because you've *cheated* that you're not credible, it's because you're *still cheating*, *have no intention of stopping*, and *are completely unrepentant*.

    2) This implies that you put your *wants* (not *needs*, my 7-year-old son just had a unit in 1st grade on wants vs. needs and he's given me a good refresher course on this) above the vows and promises you made, your own personal integrity, your husband's safety and self-respect, and the security of your marriage. This is not a pro-marriage attitude. Pro-marriage does not mean harvesting your spouse of his income regularly and enjoying having an arm to lean on at social events and a co-parent in the home while simultaneously lying, cheating, and funneling money to better facilitate said cheating. Pro-marriage means keeping your commitments, putting each other's needs paramount and frequently before your own, sacrificing for each other, and raising your family together, not slagging your husband off on a secret blog, and detailing how exactly you are humiliating him in the private time you have with your lovers.

    3) Tolerance is a bogus modern concept basically boiling down "We'll neither of us hold the other to a high standard of behavior because it's just funner when we don't. But we can still tell each other how awesome we are even when we are being completely evil and selfish." Yes, we all have to tolerate people who are intrinsically different than we are because we live in a diverse society. But we do not have to white wash or accept bad behavior.

    4) If you are really doing what you say you are doing on your blog, you are not a Christian or a serious practitioner of any solid faith. "By their works, ye shall know them…"

  54. Jim Hollywood says:

    @ grerp — Well said.

    Also, the reason I follow this blog and am reading the book has nothing to do with anyone in my relationship cheating other than to be aware and take care of my relationship.

    The affair I am having is with my wife. This blog has benefited my wife and I no end in this way.

    Feed your head. The body will follow.

  55. Anonymous says:

    detinennui32 says:

    The manosphere has been simply on fire the past four or five days.

    This is your rationalization hamster.

    *looks at Kat and Cara Jones*

    This is your rationalization hamster on crystal meth.

    Kat: I believe YOU are happy. I doubt you have a happy marriage.

    I'm with Badger. I"m really starting to get disillusioned when I read about wives who claim to have happy fulfilled marriages and get their sex on the side. And then they come here, to a pro-marriage site, and try to proclaim its "virtues".

    See, "But I'm a good person!"

    I've been married 15 years. My wife rarely does GNOs. But when she does I'll be watching.

    No one is safe anymore. No marriage is immune.

  56. Anonymous says:

    I am actually slightly sick to my stomach after going over to Kat's blog and reading three, just three posts! I don't know how someone so rotten to the core can live with themselves…

    Kat – if you are still reading, here is the deal. I DO NOT have to respect or tolerate you other than to leave you alone to spread your vile crap to whoever feels the need to read it. Don't come here and talk about respect when you behave in a disrespectful manner every time you let some guy other than your husband use you for sex. The only thing you taught me is to be VERY glad I picked an honorable woman to spend my life with. To be blunt you make me sick, but you are free to do what you want. Just don't expect anyone here to take anything you say seriously at all.

  57. Jack Amok says:

    (in spite of being married for over 20 years with no end in sight)

    Someone actively carrying on a secret extramarital affair and blogging about it sees no end to her marriage in sight?

    Wow. That is an Olympic Class Hamster right there folks.

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  58. This is my first visit to this blog, and yes, I have heard much about you, Athol. So you can imagine how it must seem to me to have arrived on this day. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to disregard this vile woman. I agree with Badger; it's one thing to read of women like this on Roissy. It's quite another to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. This is the result of diversity and multiculturalism: Kat wants to be respected because of her "diversity". This is truly amazing. I don't recognize my country anymore.

  59. Anonymous says:

    I'm Anon June 7, 2011 10:31 PM.

    Jack, you misread me. I'm not talking about guys she dated. Of course they were cocks of the walk and married well. I'm talking about male friends who just kind of hovered around her – guys she gently declined and guys who were too beta to even ask her out. These guys would be hardcore beta and easily forgettable after 10 years (or one month really). But if she (or anyone in your group) recalls any lurkers who looked good on paper (common interests, steady job), had a good personality, but just didn't give her that spark, then she should look them up. I'm sure they'd remember her.

    I'm on the other side of this coin. I've started asking more female acquaintances out and doing more cold approaches because I don't want to have to settle for an ugly woman in 10 years. Realizing that I've gone without for so long and that I'm not encountering the quality of women I'd like to has really lit a fire under my ass.

  60. There are several inaccuracies and misconceptions in the comments made to and about me that need to be corrected.

    1- Athol, Cara has never been my "cover story" for my infidelity. Never. This is one of many false assumptions you and others have made. You insist on assuming that my girl friends have to be helping me. That's very odd. I have never used a friend as a cover for cheating. I offered to give some insight specifically on how I get away with it, but I've been told no one is interested. Folks would rather believe the myth, I guess.

    2-knightblaster, et al – I never claimed that my behavior is noble or right. In fact, I have made no attempt to defend my infidelity here at all.

    3) gerp – I don't harvest my spouse of his income, as you put it. I am the income earner in my family. You also wrote, "Pro-marriage means keeping your commitments, putting each other's needs paramount and frequently before your own, sacrificing for each other, and raising your family together." I don't disagree with this statement at all. I do find it interesting though that, without knowing anything about me or my family (other than I have been unfaithful and I write a sex blog)you have made the judgement that these conditions do not apply to my marriage. Oh, one more thing…If you're referring to Matthew 7:16, it's "by their FRUITS you shall know them," NOT "by their WORKS you shall know them." I'm fine with quoting the Bible at me, just try to get it right.

    4)Anonymous (the one two comments above this), I have not come here proclaiming the virtues of infidelity. Read every comment I have written, there is not one in which I talk about how great cheating is. Others have attributed that to me, but it didn't come from me. The fact that I write a blog about infidelity doesn't mean I consider it virtuous, either.

    5) Anonymous (the comment directly above this one) – I responded to your comment on my blog, showing you a respect that I have not been shown here by most of the commenters. My response is the same to this very similar comment.

    6) Looking Glass – Cara and I are not "working together to commit a felony." Cara has never (I repeat, never) been my "cover" or lied for me in any way. Again, an assumption has been made that is totally false. Also, Cara is in a committed relationship and is not cheating. So, why do you insist on vilifying her by association?

    7) Badger, Jack, and everyone else who can't let go of the Hamster thing – If you really have read my blog, you'll see that I do very little rationalization about what I have done. There are a few posts that address the "why," but I admit there is really no excuse. Again, I urge you to let go of your own rationalization and see what is actually there, rather than what you assume MUST be there.

    One final thought….the majority of cheaters out there are men, not women. All of the men I have cheated with have been married (ok, there was one single guy, but I broke my own rule with him…won't be doing that again). Cara posed the question about how many of you are currently cheating, and even though replies can be made anonymously, there were no responses. Interesting, no?

  61. Tim– I don't want to be respected because of my diversity. I don't expect your respect because of my infidelity. I do, however, expect to be treated with the basic level of respect that is due to every human being. I'm "vile," huh? You don't think that comments like, "I don't want to have to settle for an ugly woman in 10 years" are vile?

  62. Anonymous says:

    detinennui says:

    Pay close attention to Kat, the finest, strongest, most athletic hamster I've ever seen. You won't see a hamster like this in action again for a VERY long time.

    This is a prime example of the "I'm a gooood perrrson" rationalization.

    This is simply amazing. Incredible. Unbe-freaking-lievable.

  63. Anonymous says:

    detinennui32 says:

    Cara Janes: "Phil- You wrote: "In general it is going to be more helpful to get advice from successful long-term couples than from divorcees or cheaters (male or female)." I know Kat and her family very well, and I can tell you that both she and her husband work very hard to have a successful marriage, and they do. I don't know if I've met a more successful long-term couple."

    Rationalization hamster at work.

    "I wonder how many of you people who posted a response to this are cheaters. My guess is that quite a few of you are, or suspect that your spouses are, and THAT'S why you get so angry at Kat; because you're threatened by her. I don't actually think you'd care so much if it had nothing to do with you. Kind of like that guy on Glee, Karovski, who bullies Kurt for being gay, and Karovski is actually a closeted gay kid himself."

    Deflection to irrelevant matter. Shaming.

  64. Yea – I'm lost as to Kat's rationale. She apparently regularly prowls for married men to have affairs with while lying and cheating on her husband and is so proud of it all that she details her escapades on a blog. I can't figure out what kind of person does that. I'm not sure what causes a person to delude themselves into thinking that other people wouldn't be repulsed by it. Maybe an off the charts case of narcissism? I can't wrap my mind around it. I've shaken my head thinking about it for the last 2 days.

  65. Anonymous says:

    Just made a very quick trip over to Kat's blog. Lot's of good comments earlier so nothing new from me. But one thing really stuck out in my mind. She has the usual "You go girl" comments from ladies and some men. I just couldn't help but wonder how many of these "supporters" have sons.

    How many of them would be happy to find that their son married a woman like this? And if their son found out about his wife's activities and was crushed, would they still think well of her?

    Would the ladies who pat this woman on the back basically dismiss their son's pain and side with the DIL? Pat her on the back for living her own life while lying to their son?

    And as for the men who encourage this woman. Do they have sons? I can't believe any man with a son would condone her actions given the lie she lives to conceal the actions.

    The pain of infidelity is exponentially heightened by the absolute crushing loss of trust.

    Something that good old Kat doesn't seem too worried about.

  66. Anonymous says:

    @ Kat
    "which is a lot more than I can say for many friends who are faithful but they lie to their husbands about all sorts of things from how much money they spend to the secrets of their sex life that they share with others."

    Yeah, you’re financially honest by using prepaid credit cards to pay for hotels so your husband doesn’t find out.
    And you’re soo pro-marriage, that not only do you cuckold your husband but you’re number 1 rule for cheating is to only cheat with MARRIED men.
    You’re sick.

  67. Desert Cat says:

    Kat, what you have is not a "good marriage" whatsoever. Oh, you think it's good. Your husband and kids seem happy. There is one big problem–they are DECEIVED. What you think is a "good marriage" is a situation based upon a huge pack of lies, with you the Grand Mistress Liar at the center of it all.

    If someone were to get hold of your husband and point him at your blog, and your "good marriage" fell apart overnight, you would have no right to accuse this person of "ruining your marriage". You ruined your own marriage when you chose to cheat and continue cheating without your husbands knowledge and consent. Your marriage is a LIE. It is not a "good marriage" by any non-hamster-driven rationale.

  68. Athol– You removed one of my comments that was polite and responsive to comments made to and about me, but you leave the rude and scathing Anti-Kat comments? Really? That's disappointing. I thought you said you weren't afraid of me? Am I not sparking discussion that is really revealing about some important issues?

  69. Anonymous says:

    Questions for Kat:

    Okay so alcohol, GNO, etc. won't make a woman cheat. You said most cheating wives you talk with say that their husbands push them out of the marriage and make them do it.

    I have some questions below which might help understand the scenario you are presenting in the context of how you see it.

    What made you start living this life?

    Is this your first marriage?

    How long were you married before you first cheated?

    In prior relationships, have you always cheated or did cheating behavior start only when you got married?

    Do you foresee a time in the future where you will stop?

    If not, why not? If yes, why?


  70. Anonymous–
    I would be glad to answer those questions; however, since it has been made clear that most folks here don't want to hear my perspective on those questions and because I can't be sure my comments won't be deleted from here, I'll address each of your questions exactly as you have written them in a post on my blog. Feel free to reproduce them here, but all I ask is that you reproduce them fairly and not taken out of context.

  71. Interested says:

    @ Kat

    You do realize that many of the people on this site have experienced infidelity either personally or through close family/friends? That many of them have listened to the same justifications you give? Maybe worst of all, they have heard the same rationalizations why it was OK to do it over and over even though the potential for collateral damage to people you supposedly love is huge?

    Nobody on this site cares about what you do. Go have sex with a million men. What upsets them is the fact that many of them have experienced the collateral damage when the truth came out. They have seen the pain in their children's eyes. They have felt the absolute pain of personal betrayal.

    You appear to celebrate your cheating and lying with no regard to the pain it might cause if it were to come out. The kids will be OK. My ex husband will be OK. It's all OK. So do some of your "You go girl" commentators on your blog. Good for all of you.

    Then you have the monumental expectation that everyone who has experienced this should be able to put aside their current or past pain and engage in a polite conversation where you share your wisdom, such as it is.

    Instead of pointing out how this might seem a bit delusional, I'll ask you politely to flip your comments about how we don't know you. Well, you don't know any of us. And to expect us to welcome your thoughts with open arms is not polite. It's rude.

  72. Athol Kay says:

    Kat – you have a Blogger blog as well so I assume you understand how the spam filter works. If you repeatedly make comments Blogger assumes you are spam and places them in the spambox. I don't check the blog while I am at work for obvious reasons. I have retrived your comments along with a number of other peoples comments.

    I'm not sure you understand – you're a cheater by your own admission, therefore you have framed yourself as untrustworthy and immoral. I'm confused as to why you except a positive response to you.

    Suggest that you spend some time on the Talk About Marriage forums and see the agony cheating cause the loyal spouse.

  73. I wonder if “girls night out” is a gen x and gen y thing? Or maybe a class thing. I’m tail end of the boomers in age, and upper upper middle class in upbringing and current situation. Neither my ex wife (no kids) nor any of the girls I’ve lived with before or since has ever done or pushed to do a genuine “girls night out” – that is where they went to bars or nightcubs, that is pickup spots, with just the girls. Dinner out alone with a girlfriend, early drinks out with work colleagues but then home quite early, if not for dinner then by 10 at the latest, once in awhile, but certainly not on a regularly scheduled basis.

    Nor have any ever gone on vacations alone with girlfriend(s) or asked to. I’m sure they knew I wouldn’t be happy about any of this, but it never came up that I can remember.

  74. Anonymous says:

    Some misc detective needs to find and 'out' Kat to her husband/family to let her see what they really think about it, and her.

  75. Anonymous says:

    I propose the manosphere to create the Hamster of the Month award and we should give it monthly to female bloggers like Kat (and the ones in Dalrock blog that want women to marry men that don't repulse them) and yearly a Golden Hamster award for the one that tops them all.
    Really this level of hamsterization must be rewarded and kept for new generations to recognize it before doing something stupid like marry them.
    Stephenie Rowling

  76. Desert Cat says:

    Roissy does "Beta of the Month". He'd be the logical one to award a "Hamster of the Month".

    Kat's hamster is one steroidal li'l beastie to be sure.

  77. Jim Hollywood says:

    @ Doug1 — I am wondering the same thing. I do see this with many of my younger colleaguies in their marriages while not have to deal with it in my own.

    Wondering what the demographics are around the women who have a propensity for this activity.

    Less likely to define but equally interesting to me is the demographics of their significant others. This data would also include thier attitude towards what their wives are doing.

    Impossible to know but it makes me wonder how many husbands are actually aware of what their wives are really doing. i.e. if they were to observe would they be surprised.

  78. Desert Cat says:

    "I wonder how many of you people who posted a response to this are cheaters. My guess is that quite a few of you are,"

    Nice spin of the hamster wheel right there.

    I can't speak for a single soul here besides me, but since Kat seems to have made much of no one responding to this charge, I will: No. Not once in 23 years of marriage.

    You've got to realize that Athol's popularity is based on the fact that he is catering to a very specific demographic: married men who *don't* want to ruin their marriages with infidelity and who are looking for ways to get what they want and need out of their existing monogamous relationship. More specifically, this is the "Go To" blog for married man "game". Right now probably 90 percent or better of all "game" based relationship advice is aimed at singles in the dating market. The need for an adaptation of valid game principles for monogamous, long-term relationships is substantial, and Athol's readership doubtless reflects that.

    You may not realize, but Athol in his book and on his blog strongly discourages any infidelity while working through the marriage issues and the plan that he lays out.

    You and your lifestyle represent the precise anathema of what most of us are trying to achieve.

    Still surprised at your reception?

  79. Anonymous says:

    "Roissy does "Beta of the Month". He'd be the logical one to award a "Hamster of the Month".

    Kat's hamster is one steroidal li'l beastie to be sure."

    Will he even care? I mean Roissy supports sleeping with married woman or doesn't care who is gamed?

    Stephenie Rowling

  80. Athol Kay says:

    I doubt Roissy would care beyond use of her as an example of the depravity of women in general.

  81. It might also be useful, Kat, to stop considering everything that anyone says in response to you as attacks or slander. That response is getting redundant and isn't facilitating much of a discussion this far into the comments.

  82. ElectricAngel says:

    From the Comment of Kat: "I don't harvest my spouse of his income, as you put it. I am the income earner in my family."

    Ah, now where have I read about this first? Ah, here's the Dark Lord with one version: "To all the men reading this: For the unholy love of the great biomechanical machine in the sky, do not ever allow yourself to listen to women and become a kitchen bitch. That’s a one way ticket to marital oblivion." Sounds like this marriage has reached oblivion, as the only way it survives is that the husband is oblivious.

    Roissy (when he WAS Roissy) stated something along the lines of doubting that any marriage where the wife out-earned the husband was well-fated. With that situation obtaining now in at least 1/3 of households, there's another nail in the coffin for marriage.

  83. Anonymous says:

    Count the number of times Kat uses the word "respect". We all make choices in our lives. I choose who I respect and who I do not. Kat has very little if any respect for her husband. There is a big element of humiliation going on there. She seems to get off on flaunting her attitude like a naughty little girl acting out. It comes off to me as someone who is trying to be hurtful

    Cara is at the very least lieing by omission.

    Cara of course while having devotion to Kat is not a "cheater".

    The only value add I see from cat is:

    1) a very bad example of a wife ( all due respect )

    2) Her main point, that her blog demonstrates how many women cheat. Which does not fall into the GNO premise of this one topic on this blog. Ok fine.

    The difference I think has been stated that what Kat is primarily focused on are women who are intentionally going to cheat on their husbands in a very methodical way and who want to keep it a secrect from thier husbands. Let's call them professional cheaters.

    The GNO may very well be the beginnings of this life style. But we are viewing it as a different animal. Something that is all too accepted by current society which is at least a symptom of bigger problems to be addressed. It is just a whole other gradient of behavior that can indeed overlap or lead to what Kat is talking about.

  84. Anonymous says:

    Kat–you are a slut who sleeps around on her husband, and rationalizes it like nothing I have ever seen. That is the truth. The rest of it is all mental masturbation.

  85. Anonymous says:

    Oy. This is exactly why it's so important to marry someone for whom you are ON FIRE. Sure, it's hard to keep it going over time (cue the book), but if you start with this fire, this passion, and build your foundation on the trust that can be built from the flames, you have a much better chance at going back to him and simply saying, "We need to get back to what we had." It's that simple. As Athol says, "attraction is not a choice." That chemistry is the very key to re-fanning the flame when it starts to die. Sex is the reason for marriage. It is the one unique right and privilege, according to those who attempt to define it. Sure, you can have sex outside of marriage, but without some sort of marriage-like commitment (LTR), the sex becomes less meaningful.

    Why is Kat married to someone for whom she doesn't lust?? Why be married at all if not for passion??

    GenX seems to be the worst at this.

  86. 3) Tolerance is a bogus modern concept basically boiling down "We'll neither of us hold the other to a high standard of behavior because it's just funner when we don't. But we can still tell each other how awesome we are even when we are being completely evil and selfish." Yes, we all have to tolerate people who are intrinsically different than we are because we live in a diverse society. But we do not have to white wash or accept bad behavior.

    This is a profound truth. Tolerance is probably at the top of the list of false virtures extolled by our current culture.

  87. Anon- I do lust for my husband and feel passion for him. I never said I didn't.

    As for tolerance, it doesn't mean accepting anything, just as disagreeing with someone doesn't give license to be abusive and dismissive.

  88. Anonymous says:

    Kat, if you lusted for him the way I meant, you'd be going back to *him* and telling him what you want from him sexually. Read some of the posts that Athol has written about him being a high-stimulation personality and how Jennifer has accommodated. Hell, he might discover that he *likes* some of the stuff you do with other men – you just haven't given him a chance!

  89. Anonymous says:

    Kat what kind of sociopath or troll are you? Are you really incapable of understand that people don't owe you any sympathy, manners or consideration?
    Tolerance also means tolerate other people calling you what you are on your face when you show no remorse or understanding of the vows you gathered your loved ones and his and recite in front of all of them, tolerant is not also for the good also for the bad…whore. Tolerate the label because you worked hard earning it.
    I will tolerate your presence in this blog but you decided to expose yourself so tolerate all that comes with it, good and bad.

    I really hope you can be this articulate when your kids and husband find out what you did and spit on your face… if you are lucky.

    And not I'm not telling you this because I had cheated or plan to cheat, but because in the normal world, cheating is the worst thing that you can do to a person you promised to love and cherish for better or worse forever, not only till my vagina/dick says so. But you know us people with word and honor and not walking dick and vaginas are… decent.
    I know a concept you and your cowhore Cara can't seen to understand.

    Stephenie Rowlings

  90. Athol Kay says:

    I am locking this thread. It's no longer focused on the post topic.


  1. […] Originally Posted by Man Without Answers I think from what you guys are saying, I need to probably do some combination of getting my act together and also getting her to respect boundaries and really respect me as well. So much of this seems to have been about a lack of respect for me, or at least that's what I feel for several years now. I think the two things can feed each other, where I get better as a husband or just as a man, and I show her she needs to behave like she wants to be married. It's easier said than done though. If you start acting like a man with options, which is what we've been telling you, you'll get her attention. By the way, here is an excellent blog with an excellent post about Girl's Night Out. […]

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