A Little Ain’t Enough

Reader Comment: On another board I was talking to some women about men they had good sex lives with vs. bad and they commented how with the good sex lives, the guys ‘had to have it’. But the guys they kept miserable, they perceived to have lower sex drives.
Athol: I think there’s something to that too. Basically the higher drive guys are likely to have higher drive offspring, and thereby the woman stands to gain a better gene transmission. A high sex drive is sexy in and of itself.
I have a crazy high sex drive and that triggers Jennifer’s drive a great deal. It’s not like I need to threaten I’d cheat on her if she doesn’t put out or anything close to it. My entire personality starts to change the longer we go between having sex together. I become increasingly “touchy feely” as the time passes.
If she’s sick etc and I can see a clear and reasonable explanation for not wanting sex with me, that’s fine. But there’s no way I could just lie next to her for nights on end not having sex; cutting me off from sex for no good reason would just have natural consequences that we both acknowledge.  If nothing else I have trouble falling asleep at night without having sex.
So cultivating the appearance of being someone that wants and likes sex and is naturally a higher sex drive is a good thing. That’s also one of the reasons I’m so keen to see guys running The MAP get in shape. It both increases your sex drive and is the perfect justification for having an increased sex drive. “Wow honey, since I’ve gotten in shape, I’ve just felt so damn horny.”
Taking it up to Diamond Dave levels is slight overkill, but adding a little of the attitude wouldn’t be a bad thing.

Also semen contains testosterone and that triggers the female sex drive as well. Keep them topped up.

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Comments

  1. Kristen says:

    This is the first time I've read your blog and I've already been through a great deal of it.

    First off, I just wanted to say, you are a genius. You have women down to a T, and I know this because I am one.

    Secondly, and I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but I thought I'd just throw it out there, I have a dilemma.

    I've been in a long term relationship with a man whom I have two young children with. We've been together for almost nine years.

    I love him, but he doesn't satisfy me sexually. I have a very high libido, I would honestly say, right up there in line with many men, and I can also say I've never turned down sex.

    With my current husband, I've had sex exactly twice in the last fifteen months. Yes, six of those fifteen months were the last two trimesters of my second pregnancy, but I'm all okay with sex during pregnancy anyway. :) I'm extremely adventurous and don't have many boundaries, so the quality is lacking as well. He doesn't like foreplay, including giving and recieving oral, doesn't kiss, ever, and just generally lacks any desire for physical affection.

    It's not because I'm a 3 and he's an 8 either. I'm no ten, but I'm certainly high enough on your sex rank scale, I'm only 27, I've maintained my figure from before my kids, etc etc.

    How can I get my husband to satisfy my needs… without undermining his masculinity ? I want him to want me, to come to ME for sex, and not have to beg on my knees for sex from him. I've tried everything, I could put on a corset and garters and six inch heels and sit on his lap and he still wouldn't initiate sex.

    Help !

  2. Badger says:

    Some thoughts:

    1. I wonder if a high drive assists in sex logistics by making sex a frequent habitual occurrence. Athol has talked about "making sex tonight the default option." To do that, at least one of you has to have a high enough drive to want to do it every night. If your "ideal" setup is sex every couple days, it seems to me it becomes easier to get out of the habit because you skip one session and then before you know it you haven't done it for five days. Like if you "commit" to working out three times a week and miss a session, before you get a handle on it you've skipped two weeks of workouts. Whereas if you're a gym rat, skipping a day is going to be an interruption to your routine that you

    2. Regular sex is without a doubt going to make a man's life and mood better across the board. I don't see why this wouldn't be true for women, as long as it's enjoyable and not lie back and think of England (and it's hard to enjoy if the woman isn't into it, I don't think most guys enjoy what amounts to a pity * from a wife doing her "duty" anyway).

    Women's hamsters, including ones that have commented here, sometimes seem to think that strategically denying a man sex is going to make him work "harder" for it, that he'll get "bored" if it's too "easy." But men are not women, they aren't tantalized by something put just out of reach – they just get annoyed. In most cases, he'll either go full beta to try to please you (tingle killer), get annoyed and find his mental wellness drooping, or find someone elsewhere who'll give it to him.

    Finally, a woman denying her own sexual needs in pursuit of some other petty capitulation is on the first step towards dehumanizing herself. What kind of a sick woman is attracted to her husband but suppresses it because of some pointless domestic power struggle?

    3. Yohami has made the point that libido also feeds off the rest of the man's life. I find this to be true for me – if I'm unhappy at work or have some major personal stress going on, my drive downshifts. A guy who's large and in charge is more confident sexually, including at the subconscious level.

  3. Badger says:

    Kristen,

    I'm curious – was the sex ever satisfying with your man? Has this been a precipitous decline or a continuation of a long-standing pattern, or has your drive and desire increased since you got together with him?

  4. NotThisTime says:

    Kristen – I'm in a similar situation and can share with you what I've done and the good and bad that's come from it.

    I'm currently in my mid 30s and HOLY COW my sex drive is through the freaking roof. I’ve always been a sexual person but I am shocked at how much my libido has increased. I think it’s a brilliant move for you to address the issue now. Fixing it now means you can enjoy your 30s sex life to the fullest.

    First I had to get my butt into better shape. Literally. I had 10 lbs still hanging on after having our baby and it needed to go. After that was accomplished I talked to my husband about the fact that I wasn’t happy with our sex lives – or lack thereof. Through tears I told him I wasn’t going to live without sex and if things didn’t change I could envision one day becoming weak to the advances of other men. I explained that it wasn’t what I wanted – that I wanted HIM – but enduring long dry spells would make it more likely. I later decided I wouldn’t allow myself to cheat on him and would do everything in my power to address our problems but if they couldn’t be fixed then I’d divorce him. I also committed to myself that I wouldn’t leave him for another man but would force myself to be single before allowing myself to get involved with anyone else. I explained these things to him as well. I got pretty good results from just doing and saying all of the above.

    Once we got past that stage I started telling him things I’d like to try sexually and then asked for those things in the heat of the moment. That worked out rather nicely. I’ve also made a point to be generous with initiating sexual activity and pleasing him with no expectations of reciprocation (BJs and HJs). I do this last bit to make sure that he’s getting off as frequently as I am because I masturbate like crazy and I’m trying to keep our sexual releases aligned as much as possible.

    We are now in a much better place sexually but I know I’ve done some damage by some of the things I said. I’m not sure how to fix the damage. I’m still trying to work that out.

  5. Kristen says:

    Badger – I would say that with the exception of the first two years we were together (in college) when we had regular sex, and some pretty exciting sex too, the sex has been singularily underwhelming. He was a virgin when we started dating, and I wasn't. Because I live in close proximity to his family and see how they behave together, I know that a big part of his hang ups to do with sex have to do with his upbringing. Sex in this family, although I've never actually had a conversation to this effect, seems to be reserved for reproduction. I've always had a high sex drive, so nothing has changed on my part. There are many factors that could be (probably are) contributing to our lack of sex, but it's my humble opinion that we should work our way around it in order to have a healthy relationship.

    NotThisTime – Incidentally, I very recently dropped the final ten pounds and am back down to my regular weight. I have considered trying being blunt with him – to be perfectly honest I've already been approached many times by other men for sex….and it's getting increasingly difficult to turn them down, especially when I'm well aware how sexually compatible we are or might be.

    My mother had an affair while she was still married to my father, which resulted in a divorce situation. I'm thinking that the reason I've stuck it out thus far is because I'm still reluctant to admit failure in my relationship, and also reluctant to take my children away from him, which is inevitably what would happen. I was born and raised in a different province from him, and we currently live and run a family farm that's a day's drive from my hometown. There are other reasons, but it's so complicated.

    I've told him everything (concerning me being unhappy with our sex life) except to actually inform him that I've been sorely tempted by other men. I'm afraid of what reaction that would get me. I'm really stuck!

  6. Anonymous says:

    Men's testosterone levels can change a lot depending on whether they feel like they're winning or losing at their jobs and at life in general…Do you think maybe he feels unsuccessful, maybe too dominated by you in day to day life and the running of the farm? (Nothing you've said points to that, just raising it as a possibility)

  7. Lainey says:

    It sounds like your guys do not have as high a libido as you ladies. They could get tested to see if they have low testosterone.

    Also, because you do have high libido they know that they have an abundance of sex and don't need to initiate. That stinks. As we both know a girl likes to be chased periodically, it makes her feel desired.

    A couple questions:

    Is he stressed?

    How is his fitness level?

    How is his self-esteem?

    Has he ever initiated?

    How does he handle rejection?

    You guys may need to see a doctor (both of you so he doesn't feel like he's the one needing to get fixed), and maybe a counselor.

    Your libido isn't likely to decrease anytime soon. As you noticed when women hit 30 we really start getting interested in sex for ourselves and not just to please our man. That doesn't stop in your 40s, trust me.

    If he wants it 3 times a week, and you want it everyday you may just have to accept that. I hope others here have some good advice.

  8. Kristen says:

    Anon @ 1:27
    You are very perceptive. I definitely feel like he's got the mentality that he's losing at life. I won't go into great detail – but the expense of starting dairy farming from scratch is very high, and we have astronomical bills. We routinely fall behind, he hasn't had a SINGLE day off since August 2009. We live in a little apartment that is directly attached to his parents house. His grandparents also live across the driveway, so there is a distinct lack of privacy. His grandparents want a great deal of money for the farm, that we can't afford, so we can't buy the place or build a house (which would obviously provide both of us with some much needed feelings of accomplishment). As it is, both of us have the general feeling that we've been wasting our last six or seven years together. It's a very high stress situation.

    As far as me dominating him – I'm not sure. I have a very strong personality, but I still seek some direction from him. I have found many statements on this website, and others like it, that resonate with me quite a bit. I desire a man who can make me feel like they are the leader. In some ways, he's good at that, but in the ways that I'm focused on right now ( mainly sex and physical affection ) that is non-existent. Not only the aggressor side of it, but just "it" period, is non existent. The problem is, I can't do much to change. I feel like I'm just along for the ride, and it's ultimately his decision whether we continue to pursue something that seems out of reach (the family farm) or we change tack completely. So I feel powerless to make the change in our circumstances that might would very likely make a change in our relationship and consequently, our sex life.

    It's all relevant, and I guess there isn't much commentators can help me with. I'm just trying to find some common ground with people that may understand what I'm going through!

    Most of all, I'm trying to avoid falling into the infidelity trap. I have a man that I had a certain amount of interest in in college, but never had a relationship with, who is pursuing me with the intention of having an affair. And I am sorely tempted….I'm finding it extremely hard to walk away.

  9. Kristen says:

    Lainey –

    I've mentioned to him numerous times in the past that maybe he's lacking in testosterone. But I think he's greatly insulted by that suggestion and he would be highly unlikely to get it checked with a doctor. In fact, the only time in nine years he's been to a doctor at all was when he had an injury.

    He's definitely very stressed, as I've explained in the last post at 3:31.

    His physical fitness is excellent, he manages a farm and does a great deal of physical labour.

    I'm really not sure about his self esteem, my guess is it's low, but only because of his lack of success at the business thing, not because of some percieved lack of looks.

    He has initiated EXTREMELY rarely. I would say no more than 1/6 of the times we've had sex he's initiated, the rest was all me.

    Honestly, I don't know how he handles rejection – I've never rejected him. :)

    As far as a man who knows the sex is readily available when he wants it and so doesn't initiate – it's more than that. No word of a lie, I would safely say that in the last four years, we've had sex no more than twenty times. And most of those times were to concieve our two children. What do you do when the man's libido is so low that it's actually crossed your mind (relatively early on in the relationship, and not TOO seriously) that he might not even be straight?

    It's baffling to me, because I grew up believing that I would never want enough sex to please a man, they're all horny all the time and never stop thinking about sex. And it's difficult because I know that my libido, even at 20 was much MUCH higher than any women I knew, and I end up with a guy who could care less if he doesn't have sex once in an entire year? Not to mention, he honestly doesn't watch porn, doesn't masturbate….or anything. I didn't know it was possible for a man to be so turned off.

  10. Athol Kay says:

    Kristen – it sounds like you have several issues at work here.

    (1) Low testosterone – it's really just abnormal to have that little sexual interest in someone physically fit. Get it checked out asap.

    (2) Family background/experience/shyness. The solution to this is to break free of them somewhat.

    (3) Abusive employment situation. The solution is to find another income source.

    I believe that if you guys made a move to down tools and walk off the farm, the grandparents would suddenly have a change of heart about the price tag on the farm.

    I would run The MAP so to speak on the grandparents. Would be interesting to see how things shake up if he starts looking at other job options.

    In anycase… there's no way he can feel like the Alpha Male running the show, when he's clearly just the boy running the farm for the actual Alpha Male.

  11. Bronte says:

    Question for the men:

    How do you ask a husband/boyfriend to have his testosterone checked?

    I assume any guy hearing this is going to take some offense (like any woman hearing that her partner thinks she is fat and he would like her to do something about it) but how to minimize the damage / maximize the likelihood of success outcome?

  12. elhaf says:

    I wouldn't take too much offense myself if it was approached the right way. I think the statement of actual facts, before the resentment builds up too much, is the best way to go. I want you, but I can't tolerate the low level of sex. I refuse to, in fact. So we need to do something about that, starting with going to a doctor. In this particular case, of course, there are more aspects as Athol enumerated, but on the general topic I think men shouldn't be too insulted by the approach that "I want more sex, and I want it to be from you."

  13. Anonymous says:

    mmm… it's worth mentioning that the libido and particularly the ability to gain an erection are related to important general health matters, so some dysfunction can be an early warning of something worse. For this reason, I asked my man to check with the doctor which he did – I completely framed it as a health thing. His testosterone was low (I could have predicted that from the size of his testicles). He now has medication and that seems to work well.

    Re living situation – I'd certainly not feel like sex with my entire extended family living within earshot! Also, charging full price for the family farm sucks – my brother inherited for free. I don't really understand why they would do that to you.

  14. Athol Kay says:

    Seriously, why isn't the farm in a family trust? WTF is with that?

    It's going to be no surprise to the husband that the lack of sex is an issue. Just be firm, frank and fair about it. "This is a big issue that will blow up on both of us, we need you checked out."

  15. Kristen says:

    You have all hit many points on the nose… Definitely the family living situation is a HUGE problem.

    And you have no idea how much I feel it's extremely unfair to have to live in the poor house in order to give them their desired standard of living. So much for caring about the well being of your family members!

    Athol, I feel very much like your comment about him not feeling like the alpha male is right on target. As it stands he has little respect from his crochety old grandfather, who is the master at making you feel like you're not doing a good job. In fact, I would say the whole family is the same way.

    I'm hoping that as we come up on the end date of the current lease, we will not be renewing (that's what my husband tells me anyway) and that there will be an ultimatum put forth on exactly how much we are willing to pay for the farm. If it's a no, we walk. Honestly, I'm secretly hoping that's what happens. I HATE living here this close to his family. I wouldn't even want to live this close to my own family. :)

    In the meantime, I'm going to follow this blog religiously, because it resonates with me deeply, even as a woman. Also, when I have some spare money I'll definitely be buying your book!

  16. Athol Kay says:

    Kristen – don't keep your dislike of the situation secret. You don't have to grind it into him as his fault, just be honest and open with him about your perference to move.

    Most likely there's no easy progress to be made in the situation and the best option is to move regardless of the price of the farm.

    Also email me please, I have an additional question for you. athol.kay@gmail.com

  17. Looking Glass says:

    Kristen posted in the other thread that she got laid last night, so that's a nice progress, but I do want to approach the "how to you ask them to get their Testosterone check" issue.

    Guys will be a little touchy about it, but I might suggest approaching it this way:

    - Testosterone is 1 of a series of hormones in the HPA-axis (wikipedia it). If cortisol or ACTH is extra high, it lowers Testosterone levels and all of the fun that goes along with it. It could simply be the stress. Which is why Stress = boner-killer. If there is a problem with the Adrenal glands (and there can be), it could lower his current Testosterone level, robbing him of the joy in the physical relationship he has.

    - "Lots of guys have that problem" is a really bad line to use. >_<

    - You can come across perfectly normal, but have low Testosterone. It's rarely noticeable, physically.

    - Having it low for a long while makes you less healthy and leads to bone loss. There's a very good reason to get it checked if there is any worry, but make sure Cortisol & ACTH get checked as well. (Can also throw in a Thyroid check while you're at it, if you want)

    - If it is low, there's plenty of things the doctor can give you (shots are generally used these days, and they're pretty cheap). They have a lot of "happy" side effects for most men. :)

  18. Miserable in SK says:

    I must be a rare exception around here, but I am a once-a-day kind of guy and this has never translated into a reciprocal desire in my wife, who is firmly entrenched now as a twice-a-month type despite over a year into my MAP and trying to build attraction.

    And boy, I really have a hard time hearing about women who can't get enough sex from their husbands–that is beyond my imagination to comprehend (sorry Kristen, sounds like we would have been very compatible, lol).

  19. Kristen says:

    @ Miserable in SK

    Yes, I have an equally hard time understanding it because as I mentioned in a previous post, women are told in various ways (mainly media) all through their formative years that men will demand more sex from them then they can typically provide (if they're not going against their own libido). However, I do understand the strong possibility that he feels generally emasculated by the way this family behaves and the demands on his time and his wallet.

    I do that the demands of a dairy farm are high. I would say a typical week he pulls, oh…. 80 hours. And I guess you could safely say that during haying it's more. Farming is kinda like that!

    I try to help him as much as possible…two nights ago he didn't get much sleep, so I milked the cows twice yesterday, and I try and keep the calf pens cleaned, the grass cut, all the flowerbeds weeded and watered and a big vegetable garden successfully growing. I also drive the tractor for him during haying season and of course there are my two children who I look after much of the time, and the house. I do my best to take as much of the pressure off of him when it comes to nonfarming responsibliites, because he has to spend a lot of time working for other people to make ends meet. We'll keep fighting at it… hoping certain people will realize in the near future that it's not much like family to live off of the backs of your grandchildren (my husband) and great grandgrandchildren (our kids). We will see!

    And yes, sounds like we would have been compatible, at least in bed! I But, I'm with who I am, so I'll try my ass off to make it work.

  20. Kristen says:

    @ Looking Glass

    Thank you for your help on that – I was hesitant on asking him to get his testosterone levels checked. I've mentioned it in the past several times, but I don't think he's ever really taken it seriously.

    I guess I have one more question for the general readership. If a man has low testosterone – does that just decrease his sex drive, or does it also decrease his ability to get and sustain an erection? Because I can honestly say he's NEVER once had a problem with that, in fact, all I have to do to get him hard is take my clothes off, or less sometimes. However, the main issue is he really never follows through and wants sex.

    Is it possible for a man to have a completely healthy ability to get and maintain an erection and simultaneously have low testosterone levels?

  21. Athol Kay says:

    Testosterone = sex drive. Not ability to get an erection.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Kristen @10:11 comment-

    I was wondering the same thing. My husband has never ever had a problem getting or maintaining an erection, but even if he has one, he's still not interested in sex. So testosterone levels must be fine, it's just mental.

  23. Anonymous says:

    Never mind, read Athol's comment wrong. So he CAN have low testosterone and still have and maintain an erection easily?

  24. Smooth T says:

    Eight years ago I was diagnosed with testicular cancer – between having Old Righty removed and chemotherapy, as a result I have very low testosterone.

    Average levels are between 300 and 1000 for most men, but when I'm completely off my testosterone supplement, my level can get as low as 100. I get completely lethargic, no energy, difficulty concentrating, etc. But I can still maintain an erection, have sex and orgasm – I just don't want to most of the time. Low T doesn't preclude getting an erection – even those poor men who have been hit twice with testicular cancer and have no testicles at all, yet can still get an erection without a testosterone supplement.

    Anyway, after getting my T level back to normal, it's a night and day difference – I feel like a new person. And I'm much more interested in sex to boot.

    I realize many men see an admission that they might have low testosterone as being somehow "unmasculine", but F that noise. If you suspect low T, get it checked – especially if they're mid-30s or older. The supplements are usually covered by insurance, and come in several forms – injection, gel, or implants.

  25. DanG says:

    Athol, this is my first post. I'll probably be posting more as time goes on (about my situation). However, Kristen's comment in this thread caught my attention, as it relates to a 500-pound “hamster” I’ll probably have to tackle.

    Kristen wrote: "Because I live in close proximity to his family and see how they behave together, I know that a big part of his hang ups to do with sex have to do with his upbringing. Sex in this family, although I've never actually had a conversation to this effect, seems to be reserved for reproduction."

    Athol, what IF your wife’s experiential knowledgebase and vision of a "mature" marriage is that of her parents – one where her parent's sex life was/is (as far as she knows) limited to the procreation of her and her sibling? Her father traveled a lot for many years. Now they sleep in separate bedrooms. They are financially well-off, seem to get along, and live in a beautiful home. I doubt if he has had sex since he retired from the road.

    In brief, I am in an 20 year, four child, now-sex-once/twice-a-month “mature” marriage. We think, say and act as we both love each other, and are “in love” with each other. We are. Well yeah, but the frequency of sex has been for the past 16 years. . . far from frequent. We are good friends, parents, business partners and roommates. Guilty. The marriage is too ‘balanced.”

    I have begun to apply the MAP to the situation and I think I have made some progress shaking things up. There are all kinds of “hamsters,” “shields,” and “rankings” in the mix which I will be able to deal with using your techniques – I think. BUT, I am finding it hard to envision my wrestling with the 250-pound hamster of my wife’s vision of a mature marriage as it still is lived in her parents home. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

    - Dan

  26. Athol Kay says:

    Dan – I would consciously seek to slowly but surely start educating her about sexuality in a positive manner. Books, movies, toys, massages… anything and everything senusal and suggestive could be slowly added into your lives together.

    Does she like romance novels?

  27. DanG says:

    Athol – Re Romance novels: I think the "Twilight" series struck a chord with her. I am pretty much unfamiliar with the theme of the series, but understand that there was an Alpha character that caught the ladies interest. We had a couple of hotter than usual sessions during the running of that series – both the books and movies. I have seen her reading other novels, too. I don’t know if they were romance novels.- probably. Do you have any suggestions? (It would not be a bad idea to include a list of titles in your next book.)

    Our initial meeting and subsequent first two years of dating were during a time when I was quintessentially, but unknowingly, Alpha. I "met" her by walking into her dorm room and starting up a conversation. She had left the door open during a party on her floor – as I (choose to) remember. She has said (years later) that she thought at that moment that I was a rude asshole, but at the same time sensed that I was "the one she would be marrying.”

    I have asked her many times why she married me – traditionally on our anniversary. She never really answers, and I certainly could not explain it – until I started reading your blog and book. NOW I get it! While dating I was naturally Gaming her big time and evidently batting 1000. I had no knowledge of The Game, Alphas, Betas, etc. at that time. She was not complaining! Sex was hot, frequent and there were no holds barred – mostly.

    So, the potential is there, at least historically. It is going to be a lot of WORK to revive her sexual drive after about 16 years of a lot of coping with the raising of children, careers, the “business” of marriage and children, my Beta-zation, etc. I can understand her disposition and why it would be just easier to remain in her/our ‘safe place’ of a rationalized vision of a normal (boring) mature marriage. However, I have already seen a little glow in the old embers. She tried to skip out of a 10 Second Kiss on her way to work. I called her on it as she was driving to work and assessed a penalty charge of 100%. Collecting both the principal and penalty charge the next day was fun and did make her laugh. BTW, she does not know about MMSL or what I am doing. I do suspect that she thinks something is up. Thanks to you and Super J.

    Yes, as the most recent post (8/11/11) says, “We're [kind of] sick and tired of hearing about you and Super J.” We need some more ideas and success stories. And, I read somewhere in your blog about your considering a seminar or something for couples and MMSL. I think that would be a VERY successful venture. Sign us up!

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