Husband Won’t Look For Work: Likes Sex, Sandwiches and Cash

I’ve become convinced that I’ve communicated poorly to women on the general effectiveness of The MAP and MMSL approach. I keep running into cases where the wife is dealing with an intolerable relationship problem and instead of actually doing what I suggest to do in the blog/book, she either sends him to the blog, or buys the book, and sits back and waits for magic to happen.
/palpable absence of magic noted
So here we go… it’s a long post but you should see the full process better. There’s been some minor editing to blur Paulette’s personal details, but essentially the email exchange is unchanged.
Paulette: Feels weird writing a stranger about my marital problems but I am a desperate woman. I have recently started reading your blog and I also just finished Michelle Langley’s book, Women’s Infidelity.  Your blog turned on the the light bulb of “this is what I need” and Michelle’s book scared the crap out of me as I can identify with most of it (except actually having an affair).
Things have not been ok for a while. Hasn’t helped that in the last 3 years we have endured major life stresses (foreclosure of rental property, underemployed and unemployed hubby who has made very little effort to look for work, hubby’s failed business that made no money, bankruptcy, in-law issues(related to money and overstepping boundaries) and in the process of probably loosing our home if modification is not approved).
Hubby thinks all has been fine until I flat out said I am not happy and something needs to change because I can’t spend the rest of my life like this. He has done all the beta crap that makes me more disgusted and makes me want to pull away and none of the things I need. I know I am not perfect and can be a better wife but I deserve better from my husband too. I am unhappy with many things (his lack of a job, sex life, lack of equal distribution of house work, his refusal to set boundaries with his siblings and parents and their involvement in our lives) and near the end of my rope.
I am seeing a psychologist and on Wellbutrin. (Athol – as an aside, I like Wellbutrin as an anti-depressant/stimulant choice.) Helps the depression a little but doesn’t fix the problems. I bought your book and was wondering if the timeline is something to be tried for this situation of if another tactic could be more beneficial.  I don’t want to divorce and break up my son’s home life but I don’t want to feel cheated by marriage and this relationship either. Obviously all that I have done to this point has not worked.  Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
(Athol – the central problem killing her interest in him is his lack of income, so that’s the key issue that can get driven toward an ultimatum if needed. Losing the house is non-trivial.)
Athol: I think the MAP Timeline is equally effective for a woman as for a man. It is as you probably realize a pretty strong approach to take.
Work on fixing what you can on your end of things in the marriage, and then just start working on making yourself more attractive. He’ll either respond to it or he won’t. If he does, then good. If not… you’re in a better place to find someone new. Just don’t make it a speedy rush to judgment, just slowly turn up the heat on him and give him time to pull his stuff together.
He also sounds like a good person to actually read the book himself.
Basically no more complaining – just get into some kind of action.
Keep me posted.
Paulette: Thank you for your advice.  I read all I can on the blog and now I am just waiting for the book to get here. No more nagging for me :)  I am just going to keep up and intensify the working out and figure out the rest I need to work on.  I am hoping my husband will read the book and I will keep you posted.  Drastic times call for drastic measures.
Thank you,
Paulette: Just got the book, and have some questions.
Ironically I have been doing some of the MAP stuff before I got your book and found your website.  I have lost 30lbs so far and know I am working on loosing more and getting to my goal. My husband has responded to some of the stuff. He is always groping me, compliments, etc but hasn’t responded in any way I need ( ie looking for a job, etc).  He still has put very little effort into looking for a job and his passiveness just makes me ill. (Ex when he wants to initiate sex he will say ” I want to see your rack, if that’s ok?”  The “If that’s ok” part just turns me off and his timing is horrid (when our 4 year old is running around and we are not some place private where our child won’t barge in, or at a very late hour at night when he knows I go to sleep even though he had opportunity an hour or two before when we were alone and I was still up)
My question is about the sex part. I am not attracted to him. Physically he is handsome but his passive personality and lack of responsibility just turn me off.  I have a high drive but I just don’t feel it for him. I want to, but you can’t make yourself. Do I just have sex with him anyway while I am working the timeline?  Bad sex sucks.
Also while I am working the timeline how do I approach the whole not really looking for a job crap?  Do I stop giving him money while doing the timeline? I really resent giving him money and supporting him. He doesn’t even help around the house more while he has all this free time. He does spend time with his son but spends more time in his “office” playing video games, watching YouTube or messing around on the Internet.  I feel like I have an overgrown adolescent instead of a hubby and that’s part of what’s killing the attraction too.
(Athol – her 30 lbs of weight loss is a major red flag that she is already unconsciously gearing up to dump him. Instead of dumping him though, we’re going to leverage that very positive Sex Rank improvement to try and get him to shape up on the job hunting angle. This email exchange goes so quickly because she has already laid in almost all the groundwork to make herself more attractive.)
Athol: if you are still having sex with him (and looking even hotter!), and still handing over money to him, while he adds no effort around the house and doesn’t find a job, you are in fact rewarding his negative behavior.  Basically to a man, if you are fucking him and giving him money, and he doesn’t have to do anything, that’s a really good deal. Why would he change that arrangement???
Seeing you have already increased your attractiveness with the weight-loss and exercise, it sounds like you are at Phase Three of the timeline, and starting to think about going to Phase Four  (Chapter 16)   Though you may be in Phase Two still if you haven’t made the clothing upgrade and obviously started pulling the attention of other men. (Not saying you have to do anything with them, just pull their attention.)
So the next step is to give him the “I love you, but I’m not in love with you” speech and say you’ve just been going through the motions for the last (however long you’ve been working out). That you just don’t see any point anymore continuing things as they are because the situation is intolerable. “I want to live with a man who has a job and who I can respect. I would like that man to be you, but you seem determined to make that not happen. So you have driven me to a very difficult place where I don’t want to be.”
Then stop the sex and the money to him. If he doesn’t show a near immediate resolve to start looking for work etc, then you move into Phase Five.
Make sense?
Paulette: Thank you for getting back. The bomb dropped last night. I have been in stage 3 for a little while but in denial because I know things are just going to get worse for a while.  I haven’t been having sex with him because I just can’t have sex with someone who treats me this way.
It all started with me leaving your book on his desk. He sees it, tells me “You left your stupid book in my office” and muttered something about my reading material being the cause of all our problems. Later on when I get home from my bike ride he is coming onto me, bringing up our 10 year anniversary, teasing about a present he bought me (with my money of course) and I don’t really reciprocate so he stops. He also tells me he is going to play poker at his brother’s house Friday night (for money). (Athol – LMAO you should have heard Jennifer react to that one!)
Fast forward to bedtime. He comes to see me after I have went to bed to ask me what’s wrong. I told him it’s the same thing that it’s always been. He asks me to refresh his memory so I say, “You haven’t been looking for a job.”  He says so that’s why you’re punishing me. He proceeds to tell me that he worked all week (he did a side job with his brother on Wed, he thinks these occasional dead end side jobs constitute work, and he cleans the dishes and puts them away most days (I clean and manage everything else and take care of our son when I am not riding my bike or at work).  I proceed to tell him this situation is intolerable and he needs to find an actual job with an actual company. He is silent, sulks, I let him know that he’s put me in a position that I do not want to be in. He sulks some more, gets up a goes to his office. I went to sleep and in the morning he was locked in his office asleep.
I sent him an email stating I would rather do this in person but since he got up and left I needed to somehow finish what I needed to say.  Told him I love you, but not feeling in love, the situation is intolerable and I have been placed in a position that I do not want to be in. I continued to tell him (as you helped me in the previous email) I want to live with a man who has a job and who I respect and that I want that man to be him.
Don’t know if he read the email. I get home and he has moved from the office to our bed. He is still laying around sulking. Our son was up in his room trying to get dressed (he’s 4).  I took our son swimming and when I got home he (husband) was in his office on the computer. His phone rang with his brother’s ring and he got up and left and didn’t tell me where he was going.
So I am in the midst of stage 4 with a husband who is giving me the silent treatment. Nice huh?  I am still talking to him and being polite (biting my tongue a lot, occasionally slipping)  I will still not have sex with him and I am no longer going to give him money.
If he chooses to get his shit together (to me that is doing a job search daily, have a completed resume, and applying to jobs each week and eventually getting a job; if he chooses to do side jobs while looking for a permanent job that is acceptable) then is it ok to go back to having sex and sharing money?  I just don’t want to end up in the position of rewarding him and then he ceases all further efforts because the is now getting what he wants.  That’s been the past pattern: He’d do just enough to appease me then stop because he’s get what he’s want or I’d stop standing up for myself.
I don’t think I should give into the sulking either. In the past he knew that’s how to break me. He’d sulk, I’d feel guilty even if my viewpoint was valid and give into whatever he wanted (that’s how we had a corvette at one time among other expensive junk)
I’m planning to give this phase a week. If he does not have a resume and is looking for and applying to work I am planning to move to phase 5. (Athol – Phase Four is a week at the longest.)
So I guess I just need to confirm that what I expect  (a typed up resume and active job search) is proof that he is starting to turn things around and is reasonable.
Sorry for long post. Just frustrated and wondering how the hell my life ended up like this.
(Athol – note how reasonable her demands are – have a typed resume, look for a job, get one eventually. That’s not impossible to do. These are not hysterical emotional demands. This isn’t Fitness Testing. These are reasonable requests.)
Paulette: Sorry Athol it just got worse. So I’m thinking I need to to either just move on to stage 5 or maybe just fast forward to 6?
The husband just laid into me before he left for poker. Think he’s po’d because I did not give him money (in fact he scrounged up money from the change jars).  He basically went on about how I am a nasty person and that I’ve been a complete jerk this whole last year. According to him I am unsupportive and should be nicer to him. (Athol – anyone hear shades of the unconditional love speech?)
I reiterated that this situation is intolerable to me and that I need him to find a job.  I am also apparently the cause of all his anxiety attacks (he refuses meds or therapy).  The issue of attraction came up and I did calmly tell him that my attraction is diminished because of this issue. He went off that I was a low scumbag for saying that, he’s never say that to me, etc.maybe he should tell me I am not attractive but that wouldn’t be true.  I told him at that point that if there are things he is not happy with we should discuss them so we could work on them. He just continued to blame me for everything. Has never taken any accountability for his actions.
He was upset that I think  he hasn’t been looking for a job. He says he’s been talking to people and that the job counselor he saw (I made the appointment before I found your site and book) said the most important thing he could do was to get out there and talk to people. Yet he has not personally put in applications anywhere, has not typed up the rough draft resume he worked on with the job counselor 1 month ago and does not do a job search ever (the counselor showed him how to do this and quite frankly if you can find things on the Internet shouldn’t one be able to pull up the want ads on Craigslist?). He also took a pair of 10 lb weights and threw them on the floor during this “discussion”. (Athol – I’m going to equate that to about the same thing as door slamming . No property destruction, just loud and noisy. If he does it again, I would advise dealing with it firmly, but if you don’t react to it, the behavior is likely to diminish. So we cautiously ignore it for the moment.)
So in a nutshell I am thinking I have possibly married the batshit crazy male version and just need to throw in the towel or does a man go crazy like this before there it real change?
Athol: sounds like you are on track. It’s hard I know, but it’s your only hope for being effective. A clear list of your expectations to him is important too. You absolutely can’t fold up now or you go right back to Phase One… for a very long time.
Hang in there. Write me anytime
Paulette: Just an update.  Last night he came home 3:30 in the am. Apologized for the immature conversation we had earlier. I just restated what I need to make things work. Then this am. I get dressed up and go out on errands. When I return he tells me that he read my email. He’s acting panicked. He goes back and forth between trying to justify his behavior and slipping back into childish tactics. Throughout the whole conversation that I will know he is serious about working on our marriage if he has his resume typed up and email to the job counselor he saw for final review/suggestions and that he does a daily job search and submits applications for employment. Wow, the reaction I got. I got I can’t believe your feeling for me have changed, I still feel about you as I always have, I can’t believe the demands you are making on me (I came back with I am not asking anything unreasonable).  Then went on trying to convince me that I was horrible for not being more understanding for the loss of the business and yada yada.
He also carried on about how he doesn’t know how to act around me now, he’s afraid to come up to me ant touch me, hug me, etc and that he just has to sneak a peak at me every now and then.  He said “Well I guess if I am in a touchy feely mood I will just need to pet the cat.”
He really tried to lay the guilt trip that I was an unreasonable, unloving, unsupportive wife. I told him I am really hoping he will do what I ask so I can be in a relationship with him. I think he also thinks I have another man on the side ready to take his place.
So I stood my ground over a 2 hour conversation and am hoping when I come home from work tomorrow am that the resume will be typed and sent.
He also said once I meet your demands just what what I am going to demand from you. . .
Athol: everything is going very well then.
Old Normal ——>  Destabilization Period —–> New Normal
There will be a period of destabilization where he freaks out and tries to get you to back down, and return to the “Old Normal”, but just hold your ground and insist on getting to the “New Normal”.
You are being *very* reasonable. All you are asking for is proof of effort toward getting a job. In a sense he can’t even fail at that as all you’re asking for is effort. He can completely control his putting in the effort to finding a job.
He is threatening you a little at the end with his mysterious demand that he will put on you. I’m assuming he’s going to want hot sex, and I’m in a general sense I’d advise you to be agreeable to anything you’d also enjoy. It’s both a reward for him, and after all…. the actual goal you are looking for as well!
Incidentally… he read your email because he feared that you had possibly started developing a relationship with another man as the reason you suddenly switched things up on him. Which is true in a sense…. you met me! :-P   The good news is that I’m not out to split you guys up et al. He’ll like himself a whole lot better with a job, and deep down he knows that.
Keep it going. You are doing great.
(And for him who reads the email…. she does love you. But you gotta get your shit together or you will lose her. She’s gotten a taste of her own inner strength now. Find yours, you won her once, you can win her again.)
Paulette: Just a good update :)  Today I came home from work this morning and went to sleep as I have to go back tonight. Did not ask hubby about the resume. He talked to me a bit but I went to sleep. Later when I woke up and was starting to get ready he told me he had something for me. He handed me his typed up resume.
He also gave me the bike helmet (I thought he had already bought it from the way he teased about it earlier in the week but he didn’t. He took the money he just got paid from the side job he completed to buy it) He gave me the helmet today because our 4 year old was go with him and couldn’t contain the surprise.
I was very happy about the resume. Let him kiss me, feel me up then he gave me great oral and I was so turned on I gave him a BJ.
Told he had to do a job search and submit applications every day this week if I was going to fuck him but also told him I would gladly give him a BJ for each day he did a job search and submitted job applications.  I also let him know that things were on the right track and need to keep moving in this direction. He told me he loved me and that I look beautiful.  I told him that once he got a job he better be prepared to have the brains screwed out of him for an entire weekend in celebration.  He said you don’t have to give me a BJ each day I look for a job and I just looked at him and said, “Do you think that I don’t like sex?”  Then he goes “No”
So hopefully progress will continue.I will keep you updated. I am not backing down and expect that my husband will be the man I need him to be and if chooses not to then I will move on with my dignity.
Oh to clarify earlier. The email he read is not the advice you have been sending me, it was the I love but I’m not in love with you speech you helped me with. I ended up sending him an email the 1st night this all went down because I didn’t get to say everything I needed to say to him because he left our room and locked himself in the office that night and I wasn’t going to see him in the morning because I had to leave earlier for work. I think he thought I might be seeing someone else because I dress a lot better to go do errands, I started riding with this bike club and mentioned the fact that most of the other riders are men ( left out the part that they are old enough to be my grandfather) and in his mind once a women says I love you but I’m not in love with you that usually means someone else is waiting in the wings.
Thank you (and Jennifer too!) because I couldn’t have gotten this far without your help.
End of email saga.
And I’m back!
A key thing to pay attention to is that her turning off the sex is a very appropriate taste of the future without her. Then as soon as he starts moving in the right direction, the sex resumes. Is it a dirty trick? A cruel use of sex as a weapon? Well kinda, but the reality is he was going to get kicked to the curb, and the sex with her was going to go away for good. It’s a tough love tactic.
It’s also important that she never has an expectation that he will have a job tomorrow. He’s just got to get off the couch and start looking. So she rewards the behavior she wants to see.
Likewise with the whole “Fat Wife” issue in the prior post. It’s simply not possible to be 200 pounds one day, and 130 pounds the next. The reward and positive encouragement have to kick in when she starts the process of weight loss.
Half the battle is simply stopping supporting them doing the behavior you don’t want, and offering support for the behavior that you do want. That you can have control over.
Also for the husband in question, he’s been painted as a bit of a lazy ass. Deep down though, I know he’s been quietly hating himself for not doing what he should be doing. As soon as he gets a job he’s going to feel vastly better about himself and more confident. It’s pretty hard to be anything close to Alpha without a paycheck.
Sometimes life sucks and shit happens. My hunch is that he’s a good guy that just got into a rut. A few months to a year from now, let’s all hope he’s a good guy with a strut.
 

Comments

  1. Stephenie Rowling says:

    YOU ARE A SAINT MAN!

    How come you don't have your own show?

    This is what America needs not someone that preaches the "love me unconditionally" so I can be my worst self, But "get out and move your ass, your chance at happiness is escaping from your fingers, grab it!".

    And I love that his was a woman so men know that a good woman won't just cheat on you at the first chance but fight for her marriage with all her strength to keep it.

    This is for the I saved another one folder :)

    God bless you (and Jennifer).

  2. Excuse me for notice-ing, but Paulette and her lazy dweeb-mate are doomed. Comprehensively fucked.
    Seriously; in what imaginable universe will she ever be able to regain sexual respect for him?
    Something that is that dead is going to begin to stink, by and by. Sooner than later.
    The only honest response here is to tell both of them to flee this sinking little lifeboat – because otherwise neither of them will get out alive.

  3. I admire her trying. I really hope this works for them and he finds a job. What if he doesn't find a job? There are some great people unemployed for years now – professionals with educations.

    I owe my husband a lot of bjs just for doing what he should these past 20 years. LOL

  4. Anonymous says:

    AWSOME! Way to go Paulette!!!

    (Lainey: You better get started then. :D )

    Cheers,
    Fred

  5. Anonymous says:

    Rum,

    Pessimistic much?

    Granted, if the dude doesn't keep up the effort and even goes the extra mile every once in a while things might wither and die.
    But if my wife went from a coach potato to someone carrying her own weight, getting herself in shape and giving me awsome sex, I'd probably some selective amnesia. :D

    Cheers,
    Fred

  6. Looking Glass says:

    Realized that her desire for her husband had badly dropped, went about fixing herself, found Athol, implemented a functional plan to restore their Marriage.

    Husband then had the option to be stuck in his rut (likely from job loss + business failure, it can depress anyone), was forced to make a decision and the consequences of his choice was explained. The demands were reasonable. He received positive feedback for good choices.

    This is how you fix the issues. Yes, there's yelling and thrashing, but they have a very good chance of having a long & happy Marriage. Unlike Rum, I believe they have a really good chance.

    So, Athol saves: 1 Marriage, 1 child's family and 1 functional relationship that had been hurt by circumstances and both ended up in a rut. So, Good on ya, Mate! (is that a Kiwi-ism? If not, what else would work?)

  7. Anonymous says:

    This is probably a topic for a different type of blog, but Paulette's focus on her man's job bothers me. Losing a job of course kills a man's alpha. I lost mine 2 years ago, and it took a while to regain my mojo. The problem is that THERE ARE NO JOBS. (Maybe it's different in health care or banking, but seriously there are zero decent jobs being created in the USA right now.)

    My two cents would be that men in this situation need to "man up" by doing other things, such as staying active with friends, hobbies, maybe totally outside-the-box money-making activities, and getting good at something else. Follow the MAP, but do not place all your self worth in the job hunt. The traditional advice of applying to numerous corporations and networking until one finally hires you is a total fiction, a thing of the past. Might as well bang your head against the wall. One's self worth cannot be tied to job status in this economy.

    It's such a shame that cash flow has such a drastic effect on a man's sex rank. The red pill sucks sometimes.

    Pardon the rant.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Hey Anon,

    I think in Paulette's case the guy didn't even have a resume. I mean… come on! There is no surer way to stay unemployed.

    Yes the job market is bad at the moment. I know, I've been living in a very hostile environment to find a job myself. I'm not a native of Finland and as a result I was unemployed the first year we lived here. During that time I put all my energy in learning the language and just put myself out there. Most companies wouldn't even send me a "no thank you" letter, but it only takes 1 to give you a chance. I've been incredibly lucky with contracts coming to an end and finding a new job just in time to continue working, but it's all because I kept looking. My wife was also on the lookout and forwarded me job openings she thought I might be interested in and for which I applied even if I wasn't enthusiastic about them.

    Sure it bothered me that my wife was the breadwinner and I got my "allowance" from her, but I did my best to improve the situation and got some pride out of it. I've now got a permanent position and need to speak Finnish 80% of the time. It was a fucking fight to get here, but now I see my wife tell people of my "great" achievement with a proud smile.

    Paulette being the sole provider for the family and him maybe barely taking up the household chores seem like a legit reason to focus on the matter.

    Cheers,
    Fred

  9. Anonymous says:

    There is nothing attractive about an unemployed and financially dependent man. The job market sucks, but this is just a fact of life. The typical american diet sucks too, but it doesn't make fat women any more attractive. I'd dump a man who was unemployed and "staying busy with friends and hobbies" and most other women wouldn't want him either. If you can't provide for your family then you are basically worthless as a man.

  10. I don't envy Paulette. I don't envy her husband either, but if he can swallow his pride enough to see the truth of what she's telling him, then he might gain a lot of that respect back.

    (As an aside to Anon @ 7:38, there *are* jobs. They aren't easy to find, and they might not be what he wants. In this case, he can't be picky. Any job is better than no job at all, and if there really are no jobs of any kind where he is, then he has to *make* a job. It's important that he actually contributes something to the family, but it's even more important that he make a concerted effort to contribute.)

  11. "Likes Sex, Sandwiches and Cash "

    Sounds like a sign I saw a homeless beggar holding at the freeway onramp.

  12. Anonymous says:

    She basically LJBF'd him. You can't come back from that.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Anon@8:52 — your attitude is why those in the Roissy-sphere advise young men never to marry. I'm sure it's true that most women find financially-needy men less attractive, but it should be noted that a large part of a man's financial status has nothing to do with him. Just plain luck has a far greater role (e.g., inheritances, choosing a company early in a career that has not imploded yet, etc.)

    When you say "there is nothing attractive about an unemployed and financially dependent man," you mean as a marriage partner (read "provider"), correct? If the same man is totally alpha and interesting, and maybe a bit of a "bad boy," does he still cause tingles or not?

  14. Anonymous says:

    Anon@ 10am – I mean as a marriage partner and sex partner. I don't buy the alpha thing without money, and if you aren't capable of taking care of a wife and kids (or even yourself) then you are of no value to me as either. Financial status is more about preparation,ability and hard work than luck. The people who blame it on luck are usually lacking in those areas.

    I don't care about those men who don't want to marry because women prefer providers. If being a provider is an issue for a man then we are incompatible and he needs to look elsewhere. There are women out there with low standards who might want such a "man".

  15. You know, by the sound of it I think Paulette would have been happy if her husband put out a good effort, got turned down at areas of his interest, and then started flipping burgers or moving boxes or doing something rudimentary for money.

    -e.p.

  16. Anon@8:52 – I wonder though if her feelings about her husband would be different if he was out there trying to hustle up a job every day and failing. Her complaints aren't confined to a lack of money, but seem to be more about a low sense of urgency about trying to change his situation. I do think she should give him more credit for the "side jobs" he works, especially if he does that with some regularity (if steady work isn't available, the ability to find piecemeal work is a bankable skill and should be treated as such). But at the same time, the fact that he didn't even have a resume worked up speaks volumes.

    Also, the lack of increased housework is a legitimate and underrated issue here. If you aren't working and your spouse is, you should be doing the vast majority of the housework. It's a major sign of disrespect to let your spouse work all day and then hide in your office as he/she comes home and cleans house. That's just a few notches below infidelity on the fuck-you-o-meter.

    So I think there is more going on with her decision than just money. I don't deny that for men, it's always better to make money than not if you want to attract and retain a wife… but I don't think this woman's complaints display an inherent shallowness or unreasonable nature.

  17. Women with children want providers. This does not mean they are gold diggers, lazy or contemptible. Many Roissy-inspired single men seem to resent the provider-homemaker relationship, but it works, and works well, with the right woman.

    I feel bad for the husband in the emails. He's clearly depressed. I went through a similar experience when my employer folded, and there were no salary jobs around. My wife resented the shit out of me. I scrambled my ass off for money, on my own, but it really didn't matter. There was really no room for affection and admiration from her while she was gripped by fear. That's just how it goes sometimes. A man just has to deal with it.

  18. "If you can't provide for your family then you are basically worthless as a man."

    That's such a hideous sentiment that I suspect you're just a bomb thrower and looking to start trouble.

    If you aren't a fraud and you actually believe this then I feel pity for you. A good man offers so much more than a paycheck.

  19. "A good man offers so much more than a paycheck."

    Absolutely. But all other things being equal, the man who offers a paycheck is a better man than the one who doesn't. Providing for your family is one of the pinnacles of masculinity. That doesn't mean there can't be deviations from the formula (I know one married stay-at-home dad who has a great marriage… and another whose wife took his balls away so long ago he probably doesn't remember what it was like to have any), but in most cases the man who can provide an income brings more to the table than one who doesn't.

  20. Anonymous says:

    @Monica – Good men do offer much more than a paycheck, but if he can't offer the paycheck then he's a failure as a father and husband. Men are providers. This concept has worked throughout time and across cultures. Some people may choose to reinvent the wheel and try and make things work with a man who can't provide, but I'm not interested that.

    If a man expects to be the dominant one in the relationship than the paycheck is essential. If you can't provide for me, much better than I can provide for myself then why should I be submissive? To make him feel better about being a lesser quality man? Please.

  21. pdwalker says:

    Paulette, you're a Saint. Your husband should realize how lucky he is.

    As for hubby, suck it up, get off your ass, get a job, then get your wife back. She sounds like she's worth it.

  22. I'm sure that a lot of the time, a man's job is his major contribution and a big source of his alpha-ness, but I've known a few couples, who have had to do the flip, where the wife was the non- or secondary earner, and became the primary breadwinner and they weathered it well, and often grew to like it. But in all these situations, he was great at keeping things up around the house and maintained hobbies (which sometimes became side hustles) and friends.
    I bet if this guy were keeping the house beautifully and making nice meals, and doing his casual work, she wouldn't be nearly as upset. Having a job isn't entirely in his control, but he's not maximizing what is under his control.

  23. Anonymous says:

    Anon @ 8:52/1:03 is probably just being a troll, but I'll bite. Let's assume the following scenario (which is very, very common nowadays):

    W marries H, 15 years ago when both are 25. H brings home the bacon. Works hard at a big US company. Maybe H passes over some more interesting, but risky, business opportunities, to stay at BigCo USA for the perceived stability, thus providing a great life for W and a few kids. H climbs the corporate ladder, gets a corner office and all the trappings of success. These perks include interest from lots of other women, but he's happily married so he turns them down.

    H and W are now 40 or so when the great recession hits. BigCo merges, downsizes, outsources or is sold or whatever and H is out a job. All BigCo's competitors are gone via consolidation or have failed. Like it or not, "alpha" or not, good man or not, it's going to be a long hard road for H to make good money again.

    So Anon, is H a failure in your eyes? Ladies, if you're the W, are you bailing?

    I'm not apologizing for men who sit on their asses not trying. I'm just trying to debunk the myth that hard work, skill and planning will necessarily bring financial success. For our fathers and grandfathers maybe, but not for us, not now.

  24. @Eric -

    But all other things being equal, the man who offers a paycheck is a better man than the one who doesn't.

    Yes, if all other things are equal making more money wins, but when does that ever happen? When are all other things equal? Doing well financially is a good thing, no doubt. I highly recommend it. I just wouldn't (and didn't) choose my husband using that criteria so it's foreign to me.

    Providing for your family is one of the pinnacles of masculinity.

    I know men who are the sole income earners in their families and I feel for them because of the enormous responsibility they've taken on and I admire them for pushing themselves so hard, but that doesn't mean I consider them any more masculine than men I know that have wives that work.

    "..in most cases the man who can provide an income brings more to the table than one who doesn't.

    I agree. Everyone needs to be bringing something to the table.

  25. Anonymous says:

    So, she left the book for him to find. He gave it back (but read he some of it while she was gone,) he came onto her, and she rejected him. Guess that back fired for her. She just confirmed for him that she couldn't follow-up on what she started – she gave him your book and then rejected him sexually? Wow. This guy doesn't sound so bad – he simply misread her saying one thing and really meaning another (read this book, I want a real man in my life/bedroom – really meant get a job and then I'll be a supportive woman in your life.)

    Now, as far as he understands (per her words), he gets no sex/support/pleasantries from her until he meets requirement of employment that she finds acceptable. My money is on him reading the rest of the book and starting his own MAP process, while banging the neighbor woman that has noticed, and looking for work. Then upon finding work he'll be able to add more women at work to bang and also the ability to afford an attorney do deal with her demands.

    I quote: "He really tried to lay the guilt trip that I was an unreasonable, unloving, unsupportive wife. I told him I am really hoping he will do what I ask so I can be in a relationship with him. I think he also thinks I have another man on the side ready to take his place."

    Sorry, she's dismissed him as her husband and already given the ultimatum and she may have missed it. What you want is not important, no wife until my list of wants is met, and glad you think I'm stepping out on you because I'm into using negative reinforcement.

    I thought MAP was about positive changes and influence?

  26. Stephenie Rowling says:

    I don't think Paulette is asking him to get a job out of thin air, but to make a real effort to get a job. She will probably be happy with anything he gets even is it minimum pay.
    I don't think a man has to be a provider to have worth,but if this is the way the relationship started she expected him to keep certain conditions. Is the same a man that marries a woman that has certain weight if she gains 80+ pounds more she will not be fulfilling certain expectations and we all have it. In this case is the lack of looking for work, and unless the woman has a medical condition is the lack of trying to keep herself in shape.
    Really is an issue that "I love my laziness more than I love you" and "I love my chocolate more than I love you" both spouses have the right to speak up and try to fix the situation, IMO.

  27. If a man expects to be the dominant one in the relationship than the paycheck is essential. If you can't provide for me, much better than I can provide for myself then why should I be submissive? To make him feel better about being a lesser quality man? Please.

    Blech. Again, I find this sentiment incredibly distasteful. How do you think one gets in a situation where one is dominant over the other? In this century at least the submissive person ALLOWS it because they've deemed the other person worthy to lead. You appear to be of the opinion that the guy with the most money is the most worthy. I see that as selling yourself.

    I'm curious to see who you'll end up with an attitude like that. I suspect you'll deserve each other.

  28. Stingray says:

    Anon 2:50 said

    "he gets no sex/support/pleasantries from her until he meets requirement of employment that she finds acceptable"

    What post were you reading? She NEVER said he had to find *this* job. She simply wants him to stop playing video games and locking himself in the office and try. This is not too much for a wife to ask of her husband. FInish your resume and put it out there and at least try. She never said anything about what happens if he can't find a job. That is a completely different circumstance. If he does his best to find something and can't that will be beyond his control. Sitting around all day doing nothing is well within his control to change.

    Would you really tolerate a woman sitting on her ass all day not contributing a thing to the relationship? No cooking, no housework, no nothing (except the dishes)? I doubt it.

  29. Stephenie Rowling says:

    "FInish your resume and put it out there and at least try. She never said anything about what happens if he can't find a job."

    That is how I read it. I'm sure that he showing her all the rejections he will get (because he will this are though times) and going to job interviews and comment on them, study what worked and try to change that would be more than enough for a while. Is the "free loader" attitude the problem.

    I was in a simmilar situation and my hubby was always happy to support me everytime I complained that I spent 3 hours filling applications online (wich is boring as hell), and then confort me when I got rejected. But I kept trying, always. I think the issue of lack of job is also about they not sharing anything. Because really being a stay at home doesn't give you a lot to talk about at the end of the day.

  30. Sort of off topic, but maybe helpful if it reaches the right set of eyeyballs: As somebody who has been in charge of hiring for a small/medium sized business, I'd implore you not to waste time filling out online resumes. You can bet anybody who is hiring gets a stack of resumes every day from people who walked in the door and left them with the receptionist or secretary. When it is time to hire, which resource do you think they'll reach for, the email folder full of 3000 online resumes that all look the same, or the real folder full of a few hundred hard copy resumes brought in by people who have already displayed more ambition than the people who filled out their resumes online?

    Many a job has been gotten because the person applying for it just happened to be walking in the door to submit their resume at the right time. Get out there and pound some pavement.

  31. Anonymous says:

    From Anon 2:50
    Stingray – This post.
    She said that after he says he worked all week on a side job or whatever, she says "I proceed to tell him this situation is intolerable and he needs to find an actual job with an actual company." (She wants him to find a "real" job, not side jobs till something decent materializes, correct?)

    I also quoted what she said about him saying she's not meeting his needs outside the bedroom, and she stated that she was denying needs in the bedroom at one point. She didn't sound that pleasant outside the bedroom either (she's completely frustrated and disgusted remember, but maybe I'm guessing.)

    So, yeah, we can disagree and I'll stick with my loose summary of "he gets no sex/support/pleasantries from her until he meets requirement of employment(and steps required) that she finds acceptable."

    And I read where money issues have been a major factor for the past three years. So what did I miss – yes, she demands resumes sent, she also clearly expects actual employment at an "actual" company as the result.

    Maybe you're right and I simply missed it, he's just a loser and the job isn't reasonably important – it's just the current hot topic/excuse/complaint. Employment/money issues can cause all other issues in a relationship to surface. She has expressed her "disgust" with Betaness all around. I see the job issue as a last straw. It's 07/2011 so I'm sure there are plenty of readily available jobs for him locally and he is shirking his responsibilities as she is concerned. If Domino's delivery meets her expectation of actual job (W2 type) and actual company (Ticker:DPZ) then all might be cool and I'm over thinking it.

    The job focus may be off topic really. From the sound of her frustration, and descriptions, I do sense that they both haven't been meeting each others needs for quite some time. I'll change my view to be that any ultimatum from either is something both need as motivation to begin moving on in their lives (together, or otherwise.) Easy to call an unemployed guy lazy, lower value for him by default anyway, but I get the feeling that she hasn't been that happy during when he was employed due to the other complaints she clearly listed – much work to be done.

    So, its been several years, many issues on both sides (unemployment not helping.) Maybe correct time to force ultimatum after all.

  32. Anonymous says:

    Anon 2:50 continued

    I still think she escalated to ultimatum too fast and too hard – over the wrong situation. I go back to what he said that she ignored or passed off as not important – he feels she is an "unreasonable, unloving, unsupportive wife." Maybe those topics are just water too far downstream from the bridge now to be relevant to their relationship for BOTH of them (I'll assume she can list those also to be fair.) One thing that jumped out at me – He didn't actually argue against the no sex threat (this should serve as an alarm signal to her – what, he even said near end of post that BJs every day not necessary?? Alert!. As a matter of fact, this would stop my wife dead in her tracks and completely change the conversation if I said that.) What incentive is she currently providing for him to go forth and conquer the world for her? Threats? Maybe that's just where their relationship has gotten to.

    Like I also stated, MAP is supposed to be a positive influence, is it not? Maybe she's got all Alpha and no Beta in her MAP (remember his complaints about her unloving/etc.) All push, no pull.
    So the MAP was implemented and didn't work as desired. Book also warns that an also likely result is the end of the relationship. Good news is that MAP is good for you regardless of other person's response.

    They've got a mess on their hands. Maybe I completely misunderstood from the beginning and this is how to properly execute an ultimatum on a a lazy goof at the end of MAP process and move on. If he finds an actual job, one of many items on her list is resolved and they can start work on others for both of them. Or, if he doesn't find job, she can stick to ultimatum and end it all without remorse.

    Embrace the MAP – and also the potentially unanticipated results.

  33. Stingray says:

    Anon 2:50 said

    "if he doesn't find job, she can stick to ultimatum and end it all without remorse."

    I think you may want to read the whole post again. The ultimatum has nothing to do with him actually finding a job. It has to do with him making an honest ATTEMPT at finding a job. He has been sitting around the house not really doing anything. He didn't even take to time to write up his resume. All she is asking him to do is try. She doesn't want to leave. She wants him to put in some good effort. That really is not asking a lot.

    As far as the unloving, unsupportive stuff, I am sure this guy is depressed, angry and a bit scared. Anyone in that situation will often try to do their best to not change things, as it can be scary. He is trying to keep things going as they have been and using those words to guilt her to keeping the status quo. That's basically fear talking. He wants her to enable him to continue on as he has been. He will respect himself more now for doing what need to be done. And she is the one who got him going. I say good for her and good for him for following through for his wife.

    I wish them both lots of luck.

  34. Stingray says:

    Anon 2:50,

    I just saw your other post to me. Didn't read back far enough before I posted at 5:31. Apologies. I get the sense that these side jobs are just something he is doing to appease her. Something he can do to bring in some money and still do something to maybe make her happy enough to not change things in their relationship. I am not coming down on this guy as some kind of loser lazy husband. She loves him enough to give him a chance at getting a salaried job. She is just tired of him doing enough to simply get by. I am willing to bet he truly is depressed and is stuck in this rut. I do not think he would get himself out of it if she didn't do something to push him. As I said before, I think he is going to be a lot happier with himself putting in some effort, even if all it does is bring him to delivery man.

  35. Anonymous says:

    @Monica – Money alone doesn't make someone worthy of leading, but if you can't provide then you certainly shouldn't be leading. If a man doesn't make the money and a woman does then his leadership is partially telling her what to do with money that she earned. That's not marriage that's pimping.

    I ended up with a great guy who happens to also be a great provider. There are plenty of men like that out there so why I would settle for a guy who can't provide at all or can't do it well? We all have different standards and expectations.

  36. Anonymous says:

    @Monica

    "Doing well financially is a good thing, no doubt. I highly recommend it. I just wouldn't (and didn't) choose my husband using that criteria so it's foreign to me."

    If you gave how your husband would support you and your children no consideration then you are a fool.This is much like a man who who marries and impregnates a woman while giving no thought to what kind of mother and wife she will be. Sometimes it works out alright, but most of the time it is a recipe for disaster.

  37. My guess is there is some backstory around here around his business. It didn't (ever?) make any money/folded? He may have felt something he was doing for him/them but the pressures of starting a business are always tough on a relationship and if he didn't make any money then she may have been carrying them financially for quite a while & it didn't come off. He probably felt like a failure and hence the inertia on the job searching, as even if company had folded etc, this step is admitting he failed, applying to work for someone else again. Must have been hard for him emotionally.

  38. Athol Kay says:

    Just an update….

    He's had a good couple of days of putting in a proper effort looking for work.

    They've been fucking like bunnies.

  39. Stingray says:

    Athol,

    That is fantastic news. I hope it works out for them!

  40. Eric-

    Also, the lack of increased housework is a legitimate and underrated issue here. If you aren't working and your spouse is, you should be doing the vast majority of the housework. It's a major sign of disrespect to let your spouse work all day and then hide in your office as he/she comes home and cleans house. That's just a few notches below infidelity on the fuck-you-o-meter.

    I agree. It would also tend to lessen her feelings of being pissed off at him. But it wouldn’t do much for long for her feelings of being sexually attracted to him.

    Even among feminists who think they’d be fine with it, by far most after a few years at most find they’re losing respect and especially sexual for their Mr. Mom, in a big way. Working from home can be different, if it’s not trivial and hobby type work, and if it brings in good income compared to hers.

  41. Anonymous says:

    Are you f*cking kidding me? Athol and this woman are saints? Did she ever TELL him what was wrong before all this unhappy-speech started? When the hell did step-by-step ultimatums replace honest communication? You make way, way too many allowances for breaking up a family, Athol. She should have told him upfront why he wasn't attracting her, instead of making a freaking map of "here's how long I'll put up with it until I leave him" steps. This whole thing sounds like psychology of a freaking child. Nope, don't like this anymore than I liked the fat women thread.

  42. Jack Amok says:

    H and W are now 40 or so when the great recession hits. BigCo merges, downsizes, outsources or is sold or whatever and H is out a job. All BigCo's competitors are gone via consolidation or have failed. Like it or not, "alpha" or not, good man or not, it's going to be a long hard road for H to make good money again.

    So Anon, is H a failure in your eyes? Ladies, if you're the W, are you bailing?

    During the first part of the Great Depression, my Grandfather had a decent, middle-class white collar job. Then, in the absolute worst year of the Depression, he lost his job. The entire family was on vacation visiting relatives far from home when my Grandmother got sick. Really, really sick. She had to be hospitalized and it wasn't clear if she was going to make it. Then the company my Grandfather worked for suddenly went broke. The entire staff was out of work.

    So there he was, a thousand miles from home, with a sick wife and four young kids, no job, and the worst job market the country has ever seen. The morning after he found out his old job had gone away, he walked into a lumber mill and said "I need a job."

    Entry level work at a lumber mill is – or at least back then was – called "pulling green chain." It's back-breaking, physically exhausting work. For a nineteen year old. Grandpa was 37 and had been working a desk job for 12 years. But that was where he could find a paycheck, so that's what he did.

    He made enough money to feed and clothe his children, and to pay for his wife's medical care. She eventually recovered. He never made it back to a desk job.

    Dragging around a Y chromosome qualifies you as a "male." If you want to be a "man" there are additional requirements. The willpower to overcome bad luck is one of them.

  43. Athol Kay says:

    Anon 11:23 – are you f*ucking kidding me? This shit had been going on for three years. She was in counseling and on medication to cope with it. They were losing the house.

    She told him and she told him what was wrong and he played computer games and took her money to play poker with it.

    A week of my stuff and he's looking for work with a proper resume and they are fucking like bunnies in the shower.

    What would please you? Seriously, what would please you?

  44. Anonymous says:

    Being honest, Athol. You don't automatically put divorce on the table, even as a "this will happen after so many steps" thing in your own mind, or leave a book on a spouse's desk to read (did she ever bring this up politely, directly say that he needs a job when she said "something has got to change?") You're honest with your spouse and don't give them money; you tell them they're not being attractive to you (whether they're overweight or lacking a job) and let that, and its consequences, speak for themselves if they refuse to change after it's been rought up kindly. If they're non-responsive and ignore the fact that you and the marriage are going downhill, then it's time to act strongly. I think she was pretty patient after re-reading the post, but talking to strangers online about how to plan an ultimatum and how long to wait before breaking up the marriage is just calculating and dishonest. Your spouse should be someone you want to be at their best for their sake and yours, not someone you can replace anytime because they no longer fit your list. It might also help to remind them of what they're good at and say, "Honey, is this really what you want?" instead of always making it about you and how they're failing YOU. I understand her dilemma, but the way things went about just put me off.

    "And for him who reads the email…. she does love you"

    It's about damn time. That should often be the first thing you reassure someone you're dropping the bomb of: you love them and want to improve the relationship because you care about it. To an overweight spouse, you mention how important their health is to you; to a non-working husband, starting off with an, "You're better than this" could help. I think in general it would be better advised to seek help from a Christian man, or a male relative of your spouse's to help them see things in a male light.

    Thanks for listening, Athol.

  45. Anonymous says:

    Dragging around a Y chromosome qualifies you as a "male." If you want to be a "man" there are additional requirements. The willpower to overcome bad luck is one of them.

    And by default having an X means you give sex and BJs whether you want to or not. Yeah, sounds fair.

  46. Anonymous says:

    "He went off that I was a low scumbag for saying that, he's never say that to me, etc.maybe he should tell me I am not attractive but that wouldn't be true. I told him at that point that if there are things he is not happy with we should discuss them so we could work on them. He just continued to blame me for everything. Has never taken any accountability for his actions"

    Now that sounds like she really was trying and making it a two-way street; good for her. A lot of your advice is good, Athol; I just think some of the approaches and motives are risky. If you plan a timeline to occur before divorcing your spouse, then make a list of demands and monitor them to make sure they're fulfilling it, it just sounds like everything's in the wrong place.

  47. Athol Kay says:

    Anon 12:01 – Divorce was already on the table before she wrote to me.

    "I don't want to divorce and break up my son's home life but I don't want to feel cheated by marriage and this relationship either. Obviously all that I have done to this point has not worked. Your advice would be greatly appreciated."

    Don't misunderstand, I do think my approach is pretty strong. But you don't have to like it for it to be effective. In fact I can assure you that it's very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of my stuff.

    It's the nurse in me I guess… if you want chicken soup and cuddles call your nana. I'm here to make you take your meds, get out of bed and walk the hell out of here.

  48. Anonymous says:

    I think it's the secular in you, more like; the problem is making it self-centered. Did her husband know divorce was on the table? Had she really made things clear before three years passed and she made a time-bomb in her head for the marriage to end? As a Christian, you see, I believe divorce should only be for the most extreme cases, and never the first thing on your mind when you actively decide to take a stand; you're trying to repair the marriage, the convenant between two people, not merely fix up your spouse because he's like a leaky house you don't care for. You bring divorce up almost automatically in the last few posts, Athol. Thing is, if Paulette's scheme hadn't worked and it had blown up, you probably would have offered her condolence but told her just to move on because it wouldn't be that bad. Oh yes, it could be; marriage isn't something you just get over, and neither would that husband be a father his son could just forget.

  49. Anonymous says:

    Whoops, I meant to add this: And for the record, I hope you have a respectful, if not cuddly, bedside manner. I see, in marriage and in healing, a mixture of firmness and tenderness required.

  50. Athol Kay says:

    I'm completely clear that it's a risk and may not work.

    Most people just flip out and head straight to the divorce option. I'm actually slowing that process down and allowing the "bad" spouse time to see the divorce hammer coming, and make changes before it lands.

    It's very similar to progresssive discipline in the workplace.

  51. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Athol
    Don't pay attention to Mrs./Mr. "don't hurt my feelings I'm made out of sugar" Anonymous. I really hope there is never a real crisis in his/her family because unless the drama comes soft and wrapped in cotton candy they are going to break like chopsticks in karate class.

    Results speak for themselves, 40 years of "let's be PC" had ended with 50% of women leaving their soft spoken husbands to find themselves (in some other man's dick usually). Ask any one that has been in the end of the break up if they rather wouldn't had some strong intervention than finding the house empty and the kids gone…

  52. Anonymous says:

    Right Stephanie, I'm so clearly saying you should never be firm; that's exactly what I said. I've had drama in my family, thanks, and I know what does and doesn't work for us. I've never once, on any blog, advocated spouses keeping their mouths shut and being softspoken. Strong intervention and making divorce an easy option are two different things; there's a balance that, for some reason, many secular folks don't seem to get.

    "I'm actually slowing that process down and allowing the "bad" spouse time to see the divorce hammer coming, and make changes before it lands"

    If that's the alternative to ending the marriage straightaway, it's certainly a better option than the former. But I wouldn't compare marriage to the workplace; jobs are more easily replaced than marriages, nor would I promote "disciplining" your spouse. Thanks for being clear on your terms; some of these cases you mention sound like they have immature people all around.

  53. Anonymous says:

    Athol, did you recommend deliberately attracting other men to show that she's desirable? I wasn't clear on this.

  54. Stephenie Rowling says:

    "Strong intervention and making divorce an easy option are two different things; there's a balance that, for some reason, many secular folks don't seem to get."

    What you don't get is that making divorce an option is the only thing that will make many people react. This guy (like the fat wife) had gotten away with a lot time and money and using the "unconditional love" as an excuse to not fulfill their part of the marriage. They though their spouses are obligated to endure whatever crap they pulled because they won't leave. They have the power and power corrupts.

    This was not a "my wife has 20 extra pounds for a month now, my husband has been looking for job frenetically for six months". They showed how little drive they themselves have to turn the situation around.
    It was a moment to bring the big guns. And really "unconditional love" goes both ways. If your husband is so unhappy with you that is willing to divorce shouldn't you show "unconditional love" by starting to lose those pounds and start seriously looking for a job?

    Your argument is that one spouse is the only one that is bound to show "unconditional love" but if the other gets offended then they are not obligated anymore. If is true the other spouse should show "unconditional love" as well by cleaning up their act and solving the specific issue to save their marriage. What you advocate for unconditional pity not "unconditional love", IMO.

  55. Anonymous says:

    "If is true the other spouse should show "unconditional love" as well by cleaning up their act and solving the specific issue to save their marriage"

    You're exactly right, Stephanie. But I have no idea how soon this wife brought up the specific problems and how she did so initially (if she did bring them up sooner than three years after they began, I mean). Divorce should never be considered an automatic solution; if things have gotten worse after every more peaceful approach haa been taken (there are many ways to motivate a husband to work besides threatening, plus open communication is needed), then I advise giving the spouse a wake-up call. Even then, my approach would be to say, "Look, this marriage is in TROUBLE! I need things to change!" rather than telling them, or implying, that if they don't fulfill a list that I make up, I'll divorce them. See, if you let them know you need some change, that shows them you're emotionally committed and really need something from them (then, if they don't take it seriously, that shows you something more rotten is afoot then simply not working or being fat: they don't care enough about you). On the other hand, saying you're not pleased and making a list of demands, with divorce as the alternative, sounds like you're making it all about you and are only loving them conditionally; in fact, it rather sounds like they're replaceable to you. Divorce is huge; to me, it's like setting fire to a forest: you don't do it unless everything's rotted through beyond repair. Or, you don't bring it up unless there won't be any rejuvenation of life any other way. I agree that this wife needed to speak up, but there seems to be a lot of holes involved.

    "They though their spouses are obligated to endure whatever crap they pulled because they won't leave"

    Absolutely, and you can't let a spouse control you. But again, there's a balance between being assertive and threatening divorce offhand. And, there's also a difference between a fat woman being hurt if she feels her weight is too important to the relationship, and a wife who just doesn't care how he feels (or about how this affects their relationship) and stays fat and/or cuts off sex just to spite him; the guy Athol described has a very, very uncaring wife.

    Thank you for explaining your own views, Stephanie.

  56. The MacNut says:

    As a man, the idea of a man's value being primarily in his paycheck offends me-but I can't fault Paulette in this situation because obviously her income alone was not enough to keep them solvent and her husband was clearly taking advantage of her, to the extent of apparently almost forcing them out into the street. Something had to be done, and gentler measures were not working. She did was she had to do-like Athol said, her other alternative was going straight to divorce court, which would have totally ruined them both.

    Yes times are hard, jobs more difficult to find, especially ones that pay decently. But if you've got a family depending on you, you do what you have to do to bring some income in.

  57. Anonymous says:

    We don't know what gentler measures she had or had not been taking though, McNut. Plus, getting fit in no way says to your husband, "Hey, you need a job and to stop being beta! I'm dying here!" Getting fit and still having sex with him, and giving him money, might have just sent the message that she was fine with everything, or even happier than usual; as Athol said, he sees nothing wrong if sex and money are coming in. So to open things with an, "I'm not in love with you anymore" speech after all that apparent neutrality would probably feel like a cold shock.

  58. The MacNut says:

    It's true husbands often miss the subtle signs of trouble in their marriage, but how could he have missed them being about to lose their home? I hope it wasn't because the wife was hiding the foreclosure notices…

  59. Anonymous says:

    LOL Yeah, he needed some wake-up call in that department. Which is why her method of nagging, then letting up and/or not telling him his beta methods didn't work were bad moves; men tend to go deaf when nagging begins. I wonder how he got into that slump.

  60. Stephenie Rowling says:

    "So to open things with an, "I'm not in love with you anymore" speech after all that apparent neutrality would probably feel like a cold shock."

    Well Athol is a man, he probably understands that his wife in tears about him not getting a job, but still giving him sex and money might comunicate that the tears soft speech are not to take seriously. Is clear that men have a different way to understand the world and Athol gave her a way to comunicate that she really meant it.
    Man are naturally conflict avoiders specially with the wife, it could be very well that talking was not working. I really think that Athol has certain "red flags" that make him advice the "ultimatum" so I trust that he wouldn't advice this unless it was indeed the last resort, YMMV.

  61. Anonymous says:

    Well, we couldn't possibly know everything that was going on there, Stephanie; she never said she had soft talk, she said she nagged and then relented when he partly complied to basically shut her up.

    "still giving him sex and money might comunicate that the tears soft speech are not to take seriously"

    Exactly. Assuming she ever did use softness, or firm clear speech without nagging, the fact that she would let up and never tell him she didn't like the beta-ness would definitely send conflicting messages; he may have assumed that her nagging was due to something else entirely and that going beta on her would make things better. It appears that she kept wavering between nagging and then saying nothing and accepting/rewarding his advances, then jumped the ultimatum boat, so he got mixed messages and then a hugely extreme one. I think the other comments here, about him suffering possible depression and there being a range of issues in their marriage are pretty interesting.

  62. Looking Glass says:

    If you're going to post a few times, please pick some handle. I looked to my bookshelf and ended up with "Looking Glass." 3 inches left and it's "King Lear", it makes it *so* much easier to discuss things. There's at least 3 separate people posting as Anony here, makes it hard to respond!

    Stephenie posted: "Really is an issue that "I love my laziness more than I love you" and "I love my chocolate more than I love you" both spouses have the right to speak up and try to fix the situation, IMO."

    That's really the crux of the matter. A whole lot is being said by the body language and actions, not necessarily what has been said in response to the spouses discussing the problem (though it's very, very likely it has all been said but not responded to).

    Oh, and some of you *really* need to learn to read between lines & make note of the basic details. Here's a few things you needed to have taken from the post:

    - People *do not* get here and email Athol without something going really, really wrong. Which means all of your basic complaints have already been brought up. (Otherwise, Athol would have mentioned to say them)
    - The Husband lost his main job, started a business (an Alpha move) that failed, they had a foreclosure on a rental property and she probably isn't working as much as she used to (underemployment).
    - A lot of little details are edited out to hide a person's identity. A big one is probably the dynamic with his family, which plays a larger role than is really mentioned here.
    - She wasn't asking for him to get a "job", she was asking that he stop giving up at life. While all of the things revolved around the a "job", that really wasn't what she was having issues with.
    - She's been under severe stress for a while (possible foreclosure on the home, taking anti-depressants).

    What it means is there is a lot unsaid. Like the post about the Fat Wife, the dynamic in the Marriage has gotten really out of hand. It doesn't get there quickly, but once it's there, there's a whole lot of trashing going on. In both cases, the spouse that came here really does want to save the Marriage, which is good, but the Marriage is in *bad* shape. That's when drastic measures are useful. Yes, what Athol proposes is rough stuff, but roughly 35% of all adults will go through a divorce (it's 50% of marriages, but that includes remarriages, and people do serially divorce, it inflates the issue). Which means this is, effectively, an epidemic. You need hard measures to deal with it.

    So, just to reiterate, this really isn't a Blog/Author for "simple, painless" solutions to hard problems, as there aren't any, but there are effective solutions. You just have to be willing to hold your ground, since *not* holding your ground was the problem in the first place.

    I'll make a follow up post about the Job/Failure/Alpha issue, as it's a bit of a different response.

  63. Looking Glass says:

    Okay, something that's important to point out about the Money/Provider/Alpha thing.

    A lot of guys that fall into the "Beta trap" tend to view their income as part of their masculinity. This has a whole lot to do with the fact that the old standby for "being a man" was "bring home the Bacon". As a Western culture, we've really made it hard to know what it means to "be a Man", especially with the really bad signaling on what attracts women. The culture norms for Men don't work anymore, but no one ones have been established yet, so there's a whole lot of guys confused on what to do. (And listening to what your wife "tells you" vs what is "needed" just compounds the issue; like in this main case, the issue is the loss of vitality more than a lack of a consistent job)

    So, when a "standard" man loses his job, he takes it not just as a hit to his confidence, but also that he has now "failed". If you lost your job because your larger company folded, you haven't failed. If you lost your job because you've failed at it, then you've failed. But losing a job in a recession is not a failure. Not that saying that assuages the problem and massive hit to your ego, but it is the truth.

    So in the case at hand, you had some issues inside the Marriage, a lot of stress, then loss of his job, failure of a business & her lacking some work over normal. His ego is completely wrecked, so he simply went within himself. He really just got back to being comfortable in the "bro" lifestyle, as a way to deal with all of the stress & frustration. But it doesn't deal with it, it just ignores it. His wife was simply trying to deal with it and he wasn't. That is mostly what was killing the relationship.

    Also, he had a job, rental property and was willing to start a business. He's got a lot of Alpha/do-stuff traits. Being a "bro" isn't very Alpha. And increasing what you do around the house, while normally a Beta trait, in this context it's really a sign of your Alpha-ness, as you demonstrate that you're active (while still scoring some Beta points). So, an active, alpha-ish man suddenly has life get him really down and he's just staying down. He's lost his "joie de vivre" and that, along with normal relationship & life stresses, is undermining the core relationship, which is what they really have to fall back on in their troubled times.

    I mentioned in the "Fat Wife" thread, the points of contention are rarely "the problem." What they are is the "focal point" of all of the problems. People aren't perfect so there is always some friction inside a relationship, but if the relationship hits a "state" that's really rough, all of the "good" things cease to work and the relationship degrades very quickly. Athol's system is simply a last last option to repair what once worked.

    Oh, one last thing. The Bike Helmet + Resume was both a normal Beta move (gift) + massively corrected Alpha move (resume). Which, for her, was exactly what she needed. Which doesn't surprise me he's responded & they're humping like rabbits. That's pretty much to be expected in a relationship that was functional, then stopped being, and is now functional again. She wanted her husband back and it looks like she's getting him. I wish them the best of luck.

  64. bookshelf says:

    "Most people just flip out and head straight to the divorce option. I'm actually slowing that process down and allowing the "bad" spouse time to see the divorce hammer coming, and make changes before it lands."

    Maybe for some, but after three+ years of unhappiness no one is flipping out by any means. They've reached the inevitable that divorce is the answer. I think it took them longer than needed to get to that point. The ultimatum stage is likely appropriate, but based on the feeling I get from her side, she may have to face-up to the fact that it is actually over. Attempts to get work is in process, what is the next thing on the list that the ultimatum will be applied to? When will the Beta complaints even be brought up to be addressed(these are much larger core issues than just today's task of a job search or doing dishes), and how many ultimatums will it take? There are two potential outcomes to the ultimatum, has she actually accepted both and able to be all-in forever on the other spouses response?

    And we all see him as the "bad" spouse? I fail to see where the "good" spouse admitted to doing anything to try and address the "bad" spouses complaints or concerns about the relationship, besides work the plan to better herself and move closer to the Divorce plan.

    Are you married? The last time you argued, which one of you was the bad spouse? Which one of you did your spouse think was the bad spouse?

    Not trying to defend him, they both have major improvement needed as far I am concerned.

  65. Dear Anonymous, Anonymous, and Anonymous –

    What Looking Glass said.

    Please pick a handle so that we can follow what you're saying from comment to comment.

    [APerson] followed by [the year you entered high school].

    Or anything else. Thanks!

  66. Anonymous says:

    Gee, I wish all I had to do to get a good BJ from my wife was type up my resume and give her head. I would have gotten a lot more of them in the 13 years we've been together (there have only been a few). But it's not like the frequency/energy of regular sex is lacking (3-5 times a week) so nothing to play brinksmanship over. I do admit she's a little more willing since I started back in the gym in earnest, but not that much. I had a great weigh-in with my trainer a couple of weeks ago, bodyfat is falling 1% a month but my overall weight is barely changing, I'm gaining lean and strength.

    Anyway, props to the letter writer, she's handling this tons better than most other women would. Her man must be a fairly attractive guy to be getting all this patience. Sorry about the anon, I don't have any of this site's allowed login credentials. I'm the guy called My Name Is Jim on other manosphere blogs. -Jim

  67. Anonymous Jim–

    The name/url option allows you to make up any screen name you want. The URL part is optional.

    Anonymous postings are very anoying, particularly when the person enters a dialogue. Which anonymous is it.

    So fix it.

  68. @Anon 5:46
    If a man doesn't make the money and a woman does then his leadership is partially telling her what to do with money that she earned. That's not marriage that's pimping.

    I make more money than my husband and he’s never told me what to do with the money I’ve earned. But we don’t think of it as MY money. It’s OUR money. And, I disagree that the leader dictates the family’s finances. I see it as a partnership. Neither of us in all the years we’ve been together has ever dictated to the other on finances. We did have one heated disagreement about whether or not we should buy a house but after he presented a strong case for his side I ended up coming around to his point of view. Sometimes we struggle to come up with an agreement but we continue to fight it out until we have a resolution. That’s just how we work.

    We all have different standards and expectations.

    I agree. It really does come down to this. I was raised by a single mother. That’s a life of learning how to take care of yourself, so it never occurred to me that I should be looking for a man to provide for me. I like working. I’m good at it. I think I’d be bored otherwise. Also – I know 2 women that are financially dependent on their husbands and neither of their husbands respects them. I’m sure there are couples that pull this off successfully – I just don’t happen to know any of them.

    @Anon 5:46

    If you gave how your husband would support you and your children no consideration then you are a fool.

    My husband and I met in college and we married after we both graduated. I knew he was capable of getting a degree and had a good work ethic and that was sufficient. I wasn’t calculating his income potential and comparing it to mine in order to determine if I should make our lives together permanent. I loved him. I trusted him. And most importantly I liked him and found him interesting after years and years of being together. Money seemed insignificant compared to that.

  69. Anonymous says:

    You're a good wife, Monica.

    Jennifer

  70. Anonymous says:

    @Monica – I find the idea of financially supporting a man uncomfortable, so a man who makes less than me would not be for me. I can see why you don't allow your husband to lead in that area. I've found that men who are out earned by their wives tend to be insecure about it, and I don't find that insecurity attractive. If you found a man who doesn't have that issue then congrats. I've never seen the wife earns more scenario work out happily in the long term.

  71. Athol Kay says:

    "Athol, did you recommend deliberately attracting other men to show that she's desirable? I wasn't clear on this.

    Yes and no. No in that she had already lost weight and gotten in great shape – in part to try and pull her husbands attention, but hot'n'sexy is hot'n'sexy and will pull other men's attention.

    Yes in the sense that I adovocate becoming hot'n'sexy to pull opposite sex attention.

    the guy Athol described has a very, very uncaring wife.

    Wives likely change that way with high frequency when she's going to lose the house and her husband wants whatever money is left to play poker.

    And for the record, I hope you have a respectful, if not cuddly, bedside manner.

    I work with developmentally disabled, psychiatric teenagers. Respectful yes, cuddly no.

  72. Jack Amok says:

    "A lot of guys that fall into the "Beta trap" tend to view their income as part of their masculinity. This has a whole lot to do with the fact that the old standby for "being a man" was 'bring home the Bacon'"

    Looking Glass, a ways above when I told the story of my Grandfather, the thing that I find remarkable about the story isn't his income, but his willpower and leadership. His actions weren't about having a job, they were about taking care of five people who were utterly dependant on him. A lot of "Alpha" is about achieving goals, really. A job is just a means to an end in that regard.

    The other thing I have never understood about that stroy, and no one in the family was able to explain, was just how he got that job. How in that job market does a man in his late thirties who'd never worked in a lumber mill beofre, and didn't even have a local address – was just visiting – walk into a mill, say "I need a job" and have the foreman reply with "when can you start?"

    He was awfully old by the time I knew him, and I didn't get to spend much time around him. But even as a very old man who'd been kicked about by life more than his share, he wasn't anyone you'd really be comfortable saying no to. Wish I could have known him better.

  73. Anonymous says:

    "Wives likely change that way with high frequency when she's going to lose the house and her husband wants whatever money is left to play poker"

    No no, I meant the fat wife who cut off sex from her husband.

    "I work with developmentally disabled, psychiatric teenagers. Respectful yes, cuddly no"

    Good for you. That's all I ask from medical staffs.

  74. Thag Jones says:

    See how they`re doing in a couple of months…. Using sex as a bargaining chip and reward system? WTF?

    http://youtu.be/uZvRNKvJTXM

  75. Anonymous says:

    Right-on, Thag. I'm happy things are working out for them, good on her for her patience and him for his improvement, but it's a little off..If they're both happy in their lives together, hopefully things'll work out fine ultimately.

    Jennifer

  76. Anonymous says:

    Excellent comments, bookshelf. I re-read this story several times and did not get the impression everything had already been said; she mentioned she would go from nagging to being quiet and never told him she hated the beta stuff or his timing for sex, so he was taken aback when she finally came totally clean. If he really does have some problems with her (sounded like it), I hope they're solved before future trauma.

    Jennifer

  77. Looking Glass says:

    @ Jack Amok:

    Yeah, to be Alpha, especially inside your family, is more about "Will" than the paycheck. Since information inside a culture tends to be very short (sound-bytey as you might say), "the will to provide" can just become "providing". So, men, have learned to associate simply "paycheck = Alpha", then wonder why their wife divorced them.

    As for your Grandfather, did you ever find out why they were vacationing there? He might have known someone at the company. That would, by my best guess, have a lot to do with it.

    @ ThagJones: generally, bartering with sex is a horrible idea (you clean this, you get that). When the entire relationship is on the brink of collapse, negotiating things isn't the worst option. For the time being, until the dysfunction is worked out, it's better than having filed the divorce papers.

  78. bookshelf says:

    Looking Glass
    I've never heard a woman say anything to the contrary of paycheck=alpha. I learned this from women. I commend your view that it involves "will."

    Also, she told Athol a list of Beta complaints. BUT she has her husband focused/distracted (via ultimatum) on current "tasks" like resume/job, household chores, etc. Not that the current tasks aren't important. But this is why he will then wonder why she still eventually divorces him after she realizes over time that the Beta traits still exist, even though he's achieved employment.

  79. Anonymous says:

    I agree with Thag. Sex should not be used as a reward… A bargaining tool. I really cannot see a long term future for this couple ..Shakes head….
    For the starry eyed who claim that both Athol and Paulette are saints!! FFS! Wake up and smell the coffee..

    Withholding sex from her husband is akin to treating him like a child.. Marriage should be an equal honest and respectful partnership.

    Now, we have only heard one side of the story here.. What about the husband? How do we know what he feels. What he is going through.??? .

    The poor bugger had a failed business.. Probably suffering from depression and lack of confidence… Oh.. great idea lets make him feel even MORE worse by withholding sex and basically communicating to him that he is worthless and that you are on the lookout for another more worthy man… Well done…. Spits in disgust.

    Shame on you, Athol .. It takes two to tango. That you offer such advice to the wife without knowing the husbands side of the story is most unwise and quite thoughtless and reckless in my opinion.

    Kathy

  80. Anonymous says:

    So glad to see common minds, Kathy.

    Jennifer

  81. Athol Kay says:

    Kathy and Jennifer – for the record I had a failed business 2006/7. I didn't play poker with Jennifer's money. I took a completely awful job, the worst job I had my whole life, and we kept the house.

    In 2008 I got back into the job I quit to start my business. I'm still there 40 hours a week. MMSL sucks up about 40 hours a week in my "off" hours.

    The problems never go away when you sit on the couch.

    Don't you dare spit on me.

  82. Anonymous says:

    "Don't you dare spit on me."

    Get a grip, Athol. Lol. Bit precious are we not?

    "Spits in disgust" is just a saying that expresses one's extreme displeasure .

    It's not all about YOU, you know.. Yeah yeah, heard all that "how good am I" crap, working eighty hours a week.. yada yada.

    Sorry, mate,not convinced. Like I said it's not ABOUT YOU!

    You have failed to refute what I have said with regards to how the husband MAY BE feeling. You don't know the circumstances, only what the wife has told you. She sees all of this from her own perspective.

    How do you know that the guy is not suffering from extreme depression. Easy for you to say get off the couch..There could be other serious issues here.

    Advocating withholding sex because the wife is not happy that the husband is not looking for work is wrong and childish.. They are both adults and they need to sit down and talk through the issues. Honestly.. Not play games.

    In any event it is demeaning and hurtful for the husband's sexual advances to be rejected, particularly under the circumstances, and may have future repercussions in the relationship..

    Now more than ever the wife should be supporting and encouraging her husband at what is probably one of the lowest ebbs of his life.

    Kathy

  83. Athol Kay says:

    Kathy – did you miss the part where it totally worked?

  84. Anonymous says:

    Yeah, you did what you had to, Athol. But it's the wife's way of pushing that behavior that I dislike, the sum of all the methods and actions in this case.

    Jennifer

  85. Athol Kay says:

    Liking it isn't a requirement to it working as intended.

    Also can you throw a letter behind your name Jennifer. Like "Jennifer S" or whatever. People will assume that you are my wife otherwise.

  86. Thag Jones says:

    It worked for now. They shagged in the shower a couple of times, that's all. That's why I said see where they are in a couple of months or a year. I'm sceptical that using sex in this way will work in the long run.

  87. Athol Kay says:

    It's not intended to work that way forever Thag. It's intended to bridge the short term to even get to a long run.

  88. Anonymous says:

    "Liking it isn't a requirement to it working as intended"

    And the fact that it appears to be "working" is not justification for using immoral means.

    Jennifer 6

  89. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Wow how many whiners and negative people here. Had any of you though that a kick in the ass can make many people get a grip and improve themselves?
    Really, The United States is part of countries with highest rates of divorce in the whole world, so the methods to keep the marriage working that didn't included "tough love" had not worked so far.
    Isn't the principle of madness to just try to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results?

  90. Anonymous says:

    No one said anything about doing the same thing over and over, and there's plenty of tough love or non-love in marriages. People have the right to question a situation when they've only heard half the story; the comments here are not "whining".

    Jennifer 6

  91. Stephenie Rowling says:

    People have the right to question a situation when they've only heard half the story; the comments here are not "whining".

    Mmm isn't this true of every single advice Athol has given so far? I don't remember people rising so many questions before over only having one partner talk to him.

  92. Anonymous says:

    Atheist gives marriage advice that actually works. Christians try to figure out a way atheist is wrong, because atheists are immoral.

    Go hamster go.

  93. Anonymous says:

    "Mmm isn't this true of every single advice Athol has given so far? I don't remember people rising so many questions before over only having one partner talk to him"

    Perhaps and perhaps not; I'm relatively new here.

    lol Sure anon, some hamster you've got there yourself. The majority of long-term marriages I know of are Christian. Besides, this is hardly advice that's guaranteed to work, as athol himself has stated repeatedly.

    Jennifer 6

  94. Anonymous says:

    "Wow how many whiners and negative people here. Had any of you though that a kick in the ass can make many people get a grip and improve themselves?"

    Yeah, of course. When a man has hit rock bottom nothing like a kick in the ass to get him to improve himself.

    Try and see it from the husbands perspective. When you have had a failed business and been kicked in the guts, the last thing you need is your wife giving you a kick in the ass, too!

    He needs reassurance and support in order to restore his confidence..

    Pulling the (sex ) rug out from under his feet may work in the short term, but does not auger well for a loving and respectful relationship in the long term..

    Forcing a person to act in a way that satisfies your OWN wants and needs without due consideration to the wants and needs of your partner will ultimately contribute to the demise of that relationship.

    Kathy

  95. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Try and see it from the husbands perspective.

    I do. If I ever spent so much doing being low about about myself I hope my husband does whatever it needs (including deny me sex…or kisses) to help me remember who I am and get me back on track, specially if my inactions are damaging to the relationship. BTW given that this two people got married I would go in a limb and having a good relationship is something both of them wants. If she is in a position to see problems coming and decides to act she is acting as a good first officer, protecting the ship at all costs when the captain cannot for whatever reason.

    But you know I'm strong and I can actually see logic if things. There is a period of mourning for everything. But after that you are entering emo territory and emos never get anything done and never find happiness. So yeah…

  96. "Atheist gives marriage advice that actually works. Christians try to figure out a way atheist is wrong, because atheists are immoral.

    Go hamster go. "

    Nice strawman you've constructed there.

  97. The Christian brought up the whole Christian thing, so not really a strawman, I think. Spot on, rather. The Christian even suggested that her approach would be better because she was Christian and therefore more compassionate, more caring, and more committed to marriage. All blatant assumptions on her part. See, Christian Jennifer 6, you've gone out of your way to argue strongly against success. Some example you're setting there, makes people really want to join you.

  98. Charlie O says:

    Athol,

    Thanks for a post from the wife's perspective. It helped me see my own actions (as a husband) in a more objective light. Some of the beta shit is really pathetic.

    -Charlie

  99. Anonymous says:

    "The Christian even suggested that her approach would be better because she was Christian and therefore more compassionate, more caring, and more committed to marriage"

    I never said I was more compassionate or caring, though the methods this woman used were pretty lacking in that area. Hate to point it out to you, but there's more than one Christian here and they all agree; getting banged alone is not a measure of long-term success.

    jennifer 6

  100. Anonymous says:

    Athol,
    Just catching up with my blog reading and finished this.

    You really are great. Thanks.

  101. Tinderbox says:

    Jeez, some commenters need to read the post for comprehension rather than for what they want to imagine is there.

    Championship post, Athol.

  102. Wow, and double wow.

    This is such a sad story and one I know all too well. I lived it. When my son was almost two and my daughter 4 my x walked out on me taking all but $.15 out of our joint accounts. Very painful. The attorney I talked to said I was screwed. I couldn't expect child support as my x was unemployed. In fact since I had been supporting him for a while I would more than likely end up paying him spousal support. Of course I took him back. Financially I couldn't afford not to.

    A few years later he left again. Again I took him back, about a week after that he enlightened me as to how much he loved his first wife more than me and ten years of marriage meant nothing to him. He also brought back my 9 year old child in tears during his short sojourn who rushed to her room in tears to break open her piggy bank because as he told her he couldn't afford to buy a quart of milk. At that time he was employed and did hold that job for 15 years.

    I held my marriage together for 27 years until my children were grown. I told my x that once our children no longer lived at home if he ever walked out again tht the door would be shut. At the end of my marriage I felt horribly used and abused. Did we have sex? Yes we had sex, but we did not make love. Love is not an emotion that I think my x is capable of. A man should show he cares by providing for his family. Even when he played Mr. Mom so to speak he did not do all the housely chores. He didn't cook, or do dishes basically he sat around the house watching TV and complaining that he didn't have the money to do things.

    You learn to tune it out but it doesn't create an atmosphere of love. I was never over weight at 56 I weigh the same as I did at 20. My husband always found fault in me , I didn't wipe the ketchup bottle off before I put it in the refridgerator… little things everything. It is just the way they opreate to shift the blame on to you.

    Anyways you are doing far too much, making way more excuses for him than you should and trying to give a man who doesn't want direction, direction.

    To make a longstory short, I lost sexual desire for the man long ago, even though I still had sex with him. Why? because everthing in life that was special to me was wrapped up with my marriage. Would I loose the house I built next to my daughter and her husband? Would I be able to find another place to live , where I could keep all my horses and dogs, cats… goats ect? I operated on auto pilot. He had told me that if he left he would leave me the house, because before we got married I owned my own house….

    He has worked only off and on in the last four years. He has moved from family member to family member and has used up his welcome. He is now living with our son and his wife and after quitting two jobs he is working for minimum wage at the local thrifty store. This has been horrible on his children, grown adults that they are. If he had gone through this stage while the kids were in middle or high school it would have had drastic effects on the children.

    Either resign yourself to a marriage in which you live for your children and their well bein, or get out. If he is a man you do not have to drag him through life, he will willingly embrace it and shoulder the responsibilities. If he is less than a man he will put the blame on you, or society and be a niserable life partner. No one knows what could have been, only what is. Life is full of should of would of's, but in the end you are dealt your own hand and you can play the game only once.

    Good luck no matter what path you take we all need a little luck.

  103. Sure Tinderbox, go bargaining chips.

  104. viagra online says:

    sex and beer is what I like! a sandwich ? no thanks!

  105. I spent about an hour reading through this and all the comments.

    I’m in the exact same situation. Husband was laid off a year ago and refuses to even look. I ended up writing his resume for him as he wouldn’t do it.

    We are also going to lose our house. He just sits and plays on the computer all day surfing the net or playing video games. I finally got him out in the yard after the yard hasn’t been touched in months.

    He conned me into taking a training program and it turned out to be part time and he has been done with that for nearly 3 months and he still won’t look for work.

    Now he is trying to con me with this home based business thing which he fiddles with a web site a few hours a week and the rest of the time back to loafing and games.

    What I mean conning is doing a few bits here and there to make it look like he is really doing something when he has no intentions of looking for work as long as I put up with it.

    I will also add we are not in the US and the economy is very strong here and plenty of jobs so he has no excuse not to be working.

    I have to admit I have been way too soft and patient with him. I do feel he is just taking advantage of my kindess as really he gets to do what he wants which is act like an overgrown teen and I get all the work and responsibility.

    I did tell him 2 months ago I wanted him to look for work or I was leaving.

    My mistake is still paying for his food and giving him sex. I should have cut that off back then. So I can see he probably thinks because I am still nice to him, that I am a weak fool and he can continue loafing and I will continue to foot the bill for everything.

    I am really not interested in dragging a man child through life.

    I had an injury and have been off work for a month and he seems to think this is giving him more excuse to do nothing as he says well you aren’t working. The difference is I am on sick leave and when I am well enough, I will go back to work. He doesn’t have a job and is just sitting on his lazy butt doing nothing. He won’t do anything around the house or yard and because of my injury everything is a big mess.

    I am willing to try the no sex and cutting the money off. I can see the challenge or fittest as him trying to guilt me by saying I am not working right now but I just have to ignore it and stick to my guns. I am ready to leave if he doesn’t seriously look for work.

  106. I know I’m late to this party by a little over a year, but since eula posted, and directed me here from the forums, I’d like to chime in because I’ve been the man in this sitiation. At least sort of. The “kicked when down” posters are completely off-base here. Had I been coddled and unconditionally loved, I’d still be on and off employed, and burning through tons of money smoking weed and playing games with my friends and being completely absent from my relationship. My wife made it clear, she was not getting what she signed up for. (A Marriage). I had checked out, she had checked out. I had her big income to pay the bills with, so we were “ok for now”. She’d bring in tons of money, I’d help her spend it. As long as there was money for gas, food, and weed, by the end of the month, I was happy. She expected us to be able to actually gain in money, and we never were able to because I’d bring in money so infrequently and so unreliably. When I’d make $700 bucks in a week, I’d ride that train for the next unemployed 3 to 6 weeks. The way my wife described it to her is that she wanted a PARTNER, not a room-mate that she supported. She didn’t go straight to ultimatums as I’m sure neither did either of the two people Athol was helping in the last two days blog posts. Lazy husbands don’t change by being “loved” and accepted for the lazy asses that they are. They change by being confronted and shown a mirror that finally lets them get outside of their own “hamster” shell and see themselves for who they really have been behaving like. My wife ran the full MAP on me without even knowing what the MAP was. She fixed everything about herself, she tried to be supportive of any money-making venture I’d try, she’d console and reassure me when I’d send out 40 resumes and get zero response. She did acknowledge the work I was doing, but didn’t accept the mediocre results that I was willing to accept. I was expecting her to be happy with me just going through the motions, make a resume, send a few out, live off of her. “btw can i have another 100 bucks for weed?” I’m so grateful for how supportive my wife was, AND grateful for how less supportive of my dismal results she became. I dug myself out of most of the issues eventually, and have recently put the rest of them behind me, I’m fully employed, and completely drug free, but there’s no way I’d be anything had my wife acted like Jennifer6 and Kathy would have expected her to act. A promise 6 years ago about pursuing a life together doesn’t still hold when your partner isn’t holding up their end of the promise. That promise is already broken. its a two-way promise. A ballooning wife, who withholds physical affection and sex is already breaking the marriage promise, a husband who can’t even break away from his useless obsession long enough to write a frickin’ resume and apply for jobs has already broken that promise. An ultimatum at that stage isn’t breaking any marriage vows, its giving your spouse a small amount of time to decide to start keeping *theirs* again.

    My wife lit a fire under my ass, and I finally started to move when it burned. Not only did it encourage me to grow the hell up, it gave me a blueprint for how marriages work through these types of issues. SO many times I read Athol’s writings in his book or here on the website looking to how can I get my wife back attracted to me like she used to be and think to myself “this is just what my wife did to me! Why can’t I just grow a scrot, and demand a real marriage from her, now that I’ve fixed my shortcomings? Why am I giving endlessly now and not receiving anything? Why doesn’t she just “get it” on her own? I know. I never “got it” on my own either. You work to make each other better. People who just accept whatever phase of life their spouse gets locked into and just take the suffering end up miserable, and unnecessarily because they can’t actually give the person the love that they NEED rather than the love that they WANT.

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