You Don’t Have To Fall To The Dark Side, Just Be A Scoundrel

A couple more reviews and some thoughts about the interaction of Game and religion…
Mormon Men – On top of his advice, Athol writes in a manner that takes a lot of the venom and vitriol out of the mansosphere/Game/anti-feminism blogs. There is an eyes-wide-open exposure to the weaknesses and strengths of both men and women, but it is approached with the attitude of this being natural programming and not something that should be resented or cured. Men can work on themselves and women can work on themselves.
Good Strong Men – In general, I’m glad I read it, but I found myself wishing there were a book with similar concepts, but oriented for Christian values and a stronger commitment to marriage and children.  I’m tempted to write one.
Mormon Men had a few comments reflecting worry about who should read it and the same concern is essentially woven into the entire review on Good Strong Men.

I know I frustrate some of my more religious readers in that I am perceived as ”that close” to a standard evangelical Christian position on sexuality, but I advocate an utterly pragmatic secular approach to getting the relationship you want. I offer all these good ideas and insights, but there’s this darkside undertone to everything. To a believer struggling for marriage answers, I’m sure my advice sounds a little like this…

Hmmm…  Yes and no.
No in that Palpatine is actively setting Anakin up to turn into a tool of evil. All I’m trying to do is get you laid by your wife and have a happy family life – and get paid a couple bucks for doing so. That’s the smoking gun. Follow the money. Awww you caught me!
Yes in that I think you’ve been lied to about a great many things about how sexual relationships work. Simply because a lie is given a religious reason for it’s existence, doesn’t mean it’s now the truth. Dig into things and come to your own conclusions. To be blunt I see as much sexual pain and suffering inside the church as outside of it. It’s for different reasons, but it’s still there.
And yes in that some of what I suggest is pretty harsh things to do from a Christian perspective. I don’t advise them because I get off on them being sinful, I advise them because they are effective. When it comes to saving a marriage and keeping a family together, I’ll lean toward the end justifying the means. I’ll suggest a Black Op if that’s the only way to get the job done to win the war. Though I prefer not to if I can.
In short, some of what I suggest just isn’t very nice. But then if being nice all the time was working out, you wouldn’t be here would you.
Search your feelings… you know this to be true…
Actually… if you want proper Game Star Wars advice, screw the whole Jedi/Sith thing.  Han Solo is where it’s at.
Note the way he uses her “bad word” for him in the conversation. That’s her wetness trigger word. Pure gold.

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Comments

  1. Badger says:

    Funny, I think it was The Private Man who praised your book for being highly accessible to recovering "Nice Guys."

    Personally, I tire of the complaints of the allegedly Christian folks who essentially ask "why can't I just be Mr Nice Guy and still get what I want?"

    In any self-help operation, there's a segment of people who want to know how to do what they've been doing but get different results. At which point we have to rehash the definition of insanity.

  2. Anonymous says:

    Having been both strongly religious (Catholic) and athiest (ie, w/o God, not anti-theist) I fail to see what the religious objection to a proper use of 'game' theory would be. Perhaps because I was Catholic?

    Understanding human nature and implementing that knowledge is simply a skill, like being able to shoot. How and what you use a given skill/tool for is what determines the morality of the action, not the existence of the skill/tool.

  3. Anonymous says:

    "Personally, I tire of the complaints of the allegedly Christian folks who essentially ask "why can't I just be Mr Nice Guy and still get what I want?""

    Indeed. And in response one must just ask, so how's that working for you, Mr. White Knight NAWALT Beta?

  4. Badger says:

    Before this thread gets out of hand, I don't mean any ill will to genteel Christian faith communities. It just confuses me when they suggest that unilaterally-disarmed "Nice Guy"-ism is intractably Christian. I fail to see the intrinsic connection between the scriptures and the "sit still, Captain Beta" lifestyle.

    Christ told us to not self-aggrandize, and to tend to our duties in this world, to render unto Caesar. He did not tell us to lay down our passion and power.

    Frankly this line of thinking strikes me as very feminized, that "[sterilized] cleanliness is next to Godliness," that the ideal Christian man doesn't curse, raise his voice or use social influence to effect a result. Or roll his wife in the hay like a man enthralled. My sense is that these communities have started to confuse their social culture with the theology they are implementing, and thus are telling their men that God told them to be chumps. The end result of this pink-pulpit strategy has been a massive shortage of men in the churches, rendering a generation of spinsters who have no mathematical hope of marrying a man of their faith.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Han is a FANTASTIC role model for rightous game application:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIVDepX8JvQ

    from 1:08 to 1:24.

    I use that on the wife occasionally.

    As long as we're talking cinema, Rocky I & II follow a story line that nicely illustrates what is often the fundamental problem…

  6. Looking Glass says:

    @ Badger:

    For the most part, that's correct. The real problem is that it's decorum over theology. Most of Christian theology isn't very difficult, it's just that, like most things, there's a "pop" understanding then there's what is written, which isn't very hard to get into.

    Actually, a lot of it doesn't have to do with theology, all together. It's really an issue of the class issues inside communities. "Good people" don't do certain things, that's what "bad people" do. It's really just a way for people to sit in judgment over another group.

    A close reading of most of Paul's letters, when dealing with interactions, pretty much backs up most of what Athol is saying. While most of Athol's work could be recast in a Christian context, that's really not a huge issue (though something that could be done).

    Oh, the biggest issue is that "Love != pampering", which is the trap of the Beta Male. Especially when you realize most of Jesus' message was "you're failing, and you're going to keep failing, but here's a way so you don't fail all throughout eternity". Which doesn't have a lot to do with "pampering".

  7. Anonymous says:

    Most pastors that have strong men that are husbands and fathers in the congregation will advocate and also preach a version of Athol believes sans the use of porn and divorce. In short I'm a christian male and whenever the Bible truly speaks against what Athol teaches I side with Bible. From my standpoint the conflict does seem to be minimal though

  8. Anonymous says:

    "I don't like sand" not working?

  9. Anonymous says:

    Most pastors that have strong men that are husbands and fathers in the congregation will advocate and also preach a version of Athol believes sans the use of porn and divorce. In short I'm a christian male and whenever the Bible truly speaks against what Athol teaches I side with Bible. From my standpoint the conflict does seem to be minimal though

    +1

  10. Anonymous says:

    JESUS was totally alpha and totally beta, just the kind of man Athol helps us to be.

  11. Lainey says:

    The great thing about advice sites and books is you can take what you need and leave the rest.

    I think too much game can doom a relationship, but I've never been a social game player. I avoided all that back in high school and college. Appropriate game is good. I know some of you will disagree but a quality man with some sexy scoundrel is unmatched in sexiness. Some of us truly do like a good guy.

    I wonder if some guys just like a bigger challenge and those ladies are more game players. Anyway, I love that you are pro-marriage. Divorce hurts people and kids. It is a real travesty.

    Oh, and if there are any other "Elusive Wives" out there reading, try the Christian Nympho site. It is a fantastic site for the married woman's sex life, Christian or not. :)

  12. Anonymous says:

    "Frankly this line of thinking strikes me as very feminized, that "[sterilized] cleanliness is next to Godliness," that the ideal Christian man doesn't curse, raise his voice or use social influence to effect a result. Or roll his wife in the hay like a man enthralled. My sense is that these communities have started to confuse their social culture with the theology they are implementing, and thus are telling their men that God told them to be chumps. . "

    Sounds like the thesis of "No More Christian Nice Guy". It details how the church and specifically the portrayal of Jesus has been feminized to the point of unrecognizability over the past two decades, and how that is not even remotely close to the Jesus of the Bible.

    Reading that book was definitely a "red pill" moment, and while it does not mention the manosphere, it ultimately led me in that direction.

    While the "scoundrel" approach makes perfect sense, I do agree with the general point brought up by Mormon Men and Good Strog Men's reviews – it can be more difficult to put some elements of MMSL's approach into practice when divorce is completely off the table.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Badger, being Christian or even Jewish was never about being "nice"; it's about being moral.

    "Simply because a lie is given a religious reason for it's existence, doesn't mean it's now the truth"

    I've discovered this with patriarchy and overloads of human power.

    "When it comes to saving a marriage and keeping a family together, I'll lean toward the end justifying the means."

    There are all kinds of things that keep a family from actually separating that can harm them deeply from the inside out, including lies, guilting, fear, and unChristian means. "Effective" does not mean moral or healthy by itself, which is why I take things here, like everywhere else online, with a grain of salt.

    Jennfier 6

  14. Anonymous says:

    Whoops… make that "two centuries" in the previous post.

    And Good Strong Men.

  15. Anonymous says:

    "I fail to see what the religious objection to a proper use of 'game' theory would be"

    It's not game by itself, in the basics, that some would object to.

    "He did not tell us to lay down our passion and power"

    AMEN!!

    "From my standpoint the conflict does seem to be minimal though"

    When it comes to simply being assertive and tapping into natural sexuality, it is minimal.

    "The great thing about advice sites and books is you can take what you need and leave the rest"

    Right-on.

    Jennifer 6

  16. Ari says:

    Athol,
    Now I know you're truly evil. Here I am, secure in my hatred of all things Star Wars (not having seen any of them since those abominable prequels, and you have to go and remind me of why I liked those movies way back when. Now I'm all disappointed again in George Lucas.

    Athol, you, um… Scoundrel.

  17. codeazure says:

    That Han Solo clip is epic game. Now I understand why girls like "bad" men it all makes sense…

    What are you trying to do to us? Star Trek, now Star Wars? One way to get through to all the inept geeks I guess

  18. Julia says:

    Jar Jar Binks completely killed off my love for Star Wars. After "him," I didn't even care to see the rest of the series.

  19. Anonymous says:

    Cod, only unhealthy women like truly BAD men.

  20. Miles Anderson says:

    I'm guessing what you propose is actually a little bit wimpy for what Jesus would have been. Jews at the time of Jesus would have thought that sex was one of the ways to get closer to god. I'd bet Jesus thought so also. It appears that Jesus might have wanted to break down some of the divide between mean and women but I doubt that meant go feminist. It is unlikely his belief system would have moved that far. Somedays all the Christians should realize they were deceived by the Nicene council, Pope Gregory I, and the rest of the lot.

  21. Athol Kay says:

    Jar jar Binks is less annoying than Ewoks. Seriously, do not make me bring up those Ewok movies.

    More seriously, divorce is always on the table as a possiblity in Marriage 2.0. We may not want it there as an option, but these are the rules of marriage. This is the actual agreement we signed up for.

    The more you are averse to divorcing for any reason as a moral principle, the more you disadvantage yourself against a spouse that no longer responds to you with sexual interest/cares for you.

  22. Samuel says:

    The big key with your teachings, by and large, is that they are entirely consistent with biblical theory.

    The "red pill" is the one thing the church needs to swallow, because they have emotionally shamed their men to the point of emasculation, and they encourage the men to pile beta behavior on top of more beta behavior, trying to solve the problem.

    I see absolutely no dark side to your teachings. My only wish is that as you identify the chemical reactions and science behind why your stuff works… that it would be accompanied with a spiritual element as well, because for all the 'science' involved, its still something magical, deeper than just animals and chemicals.

    The church should MAN UP and take the red pill and teach your theories far and wide. Both the men and the women would benefit, as well as the children they may have. This stuff is the solution for almost all the marriage woes in the church, and still allows men to be honorable.. if not even facilitating it.

  23. Looking Glass says:

    One of the main problems with "PC" is that it makes everything all "nice, nice" and eliminates much of the reality & confusion behind actions. There simply are physiological aspects to the human body. You can call human nature, brain chemistry or "me so horny", but there's a long understood set of natural desires. Humans haven't much changed in the past 2k to 3k years.

    As to the Biblical application of MMSL, I highly suggest, for any of the Christians wondering about this, to seriously go and read 1st Corinthians. Chapters 5-7 especially. Paul is pretty much advocating Greco-Roman Game, confined within the mores of Christian teaching on the subject on sex. (Which is actually fairly expansive, oddly enough) That Athol takes a very "mechanical" approach to all of it doesn't matter too much. That we now know that Bread has Carbohydrates doesn't change the fact that you need it, or that you should be thankful for it. :)

  24. Anonymous says:

    Samuel, many churches are still promoting strong manhood; it's all there in the Bible. They need to teach from God's Word, not an online site. Apparently you haven't read everything here.

    "Paul is pretty much advocating Greco-Roman Game"

    It's not game in its natural form; it's simply masculinity.

    Jennifer 6

  25. Strong Man says:

    Athol–thanks for responding. I actually agree with your post above, and love the Hans Solo clip. Very educational. Although some highly religious women can get nervous and would want to avoid a scoundrel. The attitude of "I'll do what I want" can be attractive even for very self-righteous women.

    I agree with several comments above that suggest the idea that much of our religious cultural practices contradict actual Christian doctrine and scripture.

    For example, I've written that Jesus Was Not a "Nice Guy", and I've pointed out numerous examples of God's anger in As Christ Loved the Church , and extended these thoughts for fathers in In Love and Righteousness

    I agree that men need to be firm with their principles. I just wish for the sake of people with children that we could send a few "warning shot" steps before we get to a full-on divorce proceeding. This might be especially helpful if the sex is not satisfactory, but still existent–say, once a week or so.

    Kind of like a government firing rubber bullets, pressure water, and tear gas at demonstrators rather than real bullets, tanks and bombs. The rubber bullets are very painful, and so is the tear gas–and they usually cause the crowd to disperse.

    What would those "warning shots" be in a marriage relationship?

  26. Anonymous says:

    Good points, Strong Man.

    "The attitude of "I'll do what I want" can be attractive even for very self-righteous women"

    Or it can be dangerous depending on what we're describing.

    "What would those "warning shots" be in a marriage relationship?"

    I'd say a HUGE one would be ceasing to care about the other spousal's opinion, or a sexually deprived husband not even bringing up sex anymore; any such disconnect.

    Jennifer 6

  27. Athol Kay says:

    Strong Man – the "warning shots" are essentially Phase Four in the MAP Timeline in Chapter 16 of the Primer.

  28. mormonmen says:

    The only hesitations I have in recommending the book to an LDS person who isn't home from a mission, engaged or already married is how difficult in can be to not rationalize away premarital sex.

    I have no problem with any of the content – even the ultimatums. This is especially true because I had to do that in my own marriage, and when my wife refused to make the necessary changes, I filed for divorce so I could raise my future children in a proper family with parents who love and respect each other.

    That being said, I still have the reservation I stated in my review because the manner in which the content is presented can be a bit much for young Mormon men and women who are already struggling with keeping their hormones and natural desires in check. Again I speak from experience as reading this book after my divorce while dating a woman led me to a lot of rationalizations in my head that would have been easy to follow through on.

    I will teach this to my boys, and I will do it in a way that is appropriate for them. The principles are universal, the presentation is more adult than I'd want my high schooler to read.

    Great job Athol.

  29. Anonymous says:

    "JESUS was totally alpha and totally beta, just the kind of man Athol helps us to be"

    The first is right, the second part way off.

    Jennifer 6

  30. Athol Kay says:

    Jennifer 6 – I most certainly do teach men to be an Alpha/Beta hybrid. I don't believe there is any question to that.

    I think you have to claim Jesus was not running Game etc than claim I'm not teaching Game.

  31. Anonymous says:

    This Pagan man, for one, appreciates the fact that you kept things secular. There are enough problems in male/female gender relationships without adding 5000 years of anti-sexual religious propaganda to the mix.

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