Positive and Productive

There has of late been some nasty commenting happening.
I am fine with people disagreeing with me and other commenters, I like a debate as much as anyone. However I am not fine with straight up insulting and goading of anyone. As a loose rule of thumb, I consider the comments to be “taking place in my living room” and people that insult me or my friends in my living room typically find themselves muzzled and shunted out the door.
In writing MMSL, I’m trying to strike a balance between the harsh truth and genuine concern for others. Also many aspects of sexual behavior are messy, both in an ethical sense and emotional one. When people come here, they usually come because of their own mess and insulting or attacking them for having a mess is of no productive value whatsoever. As much as possible, things need to stay positive and productive.
Also please bear in mind that I am writing under my own name and have a “real life” outside of MMSL. People in our real life do read the blog and the comments. The fact that Jennifer and I are real people, with a real marriage, goes a long way toward creating the platform where people think Game et al is something that can actually make a real difference, saving marriages, families and sex lives.


  1. Thank you, Athol, for your great blog. I always enjoy reading your posts – even when I don't totally agree with your viewpoint (but, I guess that is a "given" since you are a guy). I very seldom post comments because I am afraid of getting flamed by others. Keep up the good work!

  2. Stephenie Rowling says:

    I'm sorry people forget you are a real person with a real live along with a real family.
    Sadly is the price to pay for telling the truth in a land of lies.

  3. Not surprising that your post titled "Positive and Productive" was nothing but positive and productive.

    You're a good man.

  4. Comments need moderating, or the people who shout will set the tone. Even though that's often not their intention.

    Keep up the good work.

  5. Athol – thanks for all the effort you put into the blog and books. I for one have befitted from your knowledge.

    I am still working on complete acceptance of what I've learned here, and I will admit that frankly there are times when I am simply pissed off now that I realize how much and for how long I've been lied to. I know it wasn't all intentional, but the bottom line is I've spent the better part of my adult life working under the completely wrong set of rules when it comes to women and relationships, and I honestly feel cheated. I don't think most people that post intend to be rude, but I can understand how it happens. I try hard not to post when something I read here gets my panties in a bunch, as I know beyond all doubt that the post will be obnoxious. Most of the time I succeed. I truly hope that no one here has been offended by anything I've said, and I also hope that everyone realizes that this is a forum for debate. Not everyone has the ability to argue their point of view without becoming emotionally invested, which tends to lead into hurtful comment territory.

    Lets all remember why we are here. To improve our relationships. Lets all do our best to keep the conversation constructive, even as we smolder with anger or fret with despair. We are all people, living as best we can.

  6. Looking Glass says:

    The comment section allows for the random "run by fruiting" (5 points if you get the reference). So, that's always bound to happen a bit.

    Yeah, it sucks, but only so much can be done.

    That, and we obviously need more threads about Girl's Night Out! (/troll) :)

    Keep up the good work, and I'll try to be nicer to the people that have incomprehensible writing. :)

  7. Looking Glass says:

    @ Ted:

    Realizing you've been sold a bill of goods for your entire life about the way something works, then finding someone that lays out a functional, provable way to deal with the issues, is a maddening experience. It's an "ignore the man behind the curtain" moment, and can bring out anguish in anyone. Though I don't think that's the main reason this got posted.

    There's been a few posts over the last few months that can brought out the really harsh. Some threads are good back & forth discussions of the topics. And some are the GNO thread that descend into anarchy. There are just some topics that part of the audience won't stand to discuss… on a blog built around discussing the things no one really wanted to discuss about sex. Strange, that, really.

  8. I frequent several blogs on this topic. I can tell you that this one is by far the most polite atmosphere I've encountered.

    I think there are many guys here like myself that are still in the "12 step program" phase, and we are easy to set off. I personally find it a difficult transition because part of me wants to blame "someone" for this. I want to point my finger at someone, anyone, and say "you did this to me!" But the sorry truth is I did it to myself. And those that taught me what I thought was the truth, didn't do it out of spite.

    So yeah, on occasion some of us here tend to get a bit too harsh, as we look for someone to blame. As I said before, no one here should take any comments made personally. we don't really know each other, and frankly there is a lot of folks here still brewing with resentment and anger.

    On the bright side, I can say that posting here and on other forums has gone a LONG way towards helping me through this. It is helpful to know I'm not alone, and that others feel the same things I do in regards to learning the truth.

    P.S. – I wanted to mention that nothing on MMSL really upset me. I became very angry and upset when I started visiting other sites and really understanding why what Athol teaches us works. Realizing how the SMP and women's selection actually functions made my blood boil. I sometimes catch myself saying: "why oh why didn't I take the blue pill". But now that I know, I could never go back.

  9. I appreciate your writing and the positive tone you maintain here. I don't want to spend any time on the woman-bashing sites, but I look forward to your posts and (most of) the comments here. As a wife, I am very interested in learning everything I can about having the best possible marriage.

  10. Athol, thanks for setting me straight. I apologize for setting the tone in yesterday's comments.

  11. Thanks, Athol. I know that when I start reading angry posts or anti-women posts here it makes me not want to return. I avoid much of the mansophere, and I am sympathetic to their issues, because I cannot tolerate the hate spewed there.

    People that are angry or looking for someone to blame have issues they need to deal with before worrying about "game."

  12. The Alpha Male has spoken.


  13. Thanks for all you do Athol. It is important to remember that our personal problems are what bring us to this blog. I, too, have posted my problem on the blog, and was ridiculed by a fellow poster(most fellow posters were actually very helpful).

    The solutions to other people's problems are obvious; the solutions to our own problems…not so much. That's why we come here – for the PERSPECTIVE.

    I'm very glad for Athol providing a sane, civilized forum for us to lay forth our problems and receive helpful solutions from not only him, but other posters.

    Koala Bear

  14. @ Lainey – I fully admit that my anger is my issue to resolve. And I don't use it as an excuse to treat people badly. But I think you truly underestimate the anguish taking the red pill can cause. Many of the guys here have been treated badly. Some are in relationships going sour, and some like myself found this site after years of living in misery followed by divorce. I lucked out because my ex is actually a good person,and we did not split hating and resenting each other. However I am a rare case, and every other man I know got royally screwed in court during their divorce.

    Now imagine one of those men coming here and learning that the reason they got screwed was because they were fed a bunch of bull from an early age. I often feel like I was setup to fail by the people I love and trusted as a child and young adult. So yeah, I have some anger to work through. I'm glad you feel a bit of empathy for men like me, but I truly don't think you understand how traumatic all this can be.

  15. Ted there are plenty of sites out there for you to vent on. Also, until you work out your anger issues you won't be able to have any good relationships.

    I personally get tired of all the venting in the manosphere. A lot of men lump all women in one category, and I've personally been attacked on this site by one of those angry men for no reason. I prefer people work out their anger in ways that don't involve me.

    I can be sympathetic while also asking that people not emote their problems on me or blame me for their issues.

  16. I have only been coming here a few months. Not much of a blog reader in general, but when reading through about 200 posts the first day I had many "aha" moments about my own behavior and my relationship with my wife.

    Love the blog, haven't really worked the comment section too much, but it seems like the anonymous nature of the internet will always bring out jerks as there are no repercussions.

    Keep up the good work, and perhaps if you (Athol) can remember when you had young kids, if you could comment on the complexities of a marriage and sex life when you have a two young children (mine are 2 and a half and 6 months).

  17. @ Lainey – To the best of my knowledge, I have resisted the urge to vent here and have indeed taken those comments to forums that are better suited for them. And I said, repeatedly, that anger is not an excuse for bad behavior. That being said, others have come here posting things that are simply bad for the audience, and then acted surprised by the backlash. Someone named Kat comes to mind. Why on earth would someone that runs a blog on how to cheat come to a site like this to discuss anything?!

    As far as relationships go, I am painfully aware of how difficult it is to maintain a healthy one while digesting the red pill. I find myself second-guessing every word I say sometimes. I often look at my current SO and wonder if she is shit testing me, if so is it on purpose, or is she totally unaware of it? I am trying my best, but it would have been much easier to learn all this when I wasn't involved with someone. But, it is what it is, and I am moving forward as carefully as I can to improve my relationship without breaking it. If all I knew was Athol's advice, I would probably be OK. But going to other blogs was really a kick in the ass for me. I'm glad I know, but it showed me that I really needed to forget most of what I thought about women and start over from scratch. At 41 years old, that is a harsh reality.

  18. detinennui32 says:

    Ted, I hear you loud and clear.

  19. "Keep up the good work, and perhaps if you (Athol) can remember when you had young kids, if you could comment on the complexities of a marriage and sex life when you have a two young children (mine are 2 and a half and 6 months). "

    Word. After spending a weekend watching after my two year old by myself, I have a new appreciation for how tired my wife is at the end of the day.

    Doesn't mean I don't still need the old slap and tickle on a regular basis, but I understand her reluctance a little better now.

  20. Thanks for all the comments. Much appreciated.

    Ted's point is important to address. I'm writing a post on that now.

  21. Thanks Athol. And I can attest … Ted, I probably could have written 95% of what you've laid out today, verbatim. I have felt alternately depressed over it, angry over it and concerned about letting my new knowledge affect my marriage and my views of women overall. It has been hard not to have that happen, and indeed, I've been harder on my wife, and second guessing what she says and does like crazy. I don't want that, and I don't want to see all red pill men become either douchebags or woman-haters. You sounds like you're in my age range, pushing middle age. I hope for the best for you and know that there are other guys who feel the way you feel now, and you're indeed not alone.

  22. Looking Glass says:

    Wanted to comment on the discussion between Ted & Lainey.

    Much of the Red Pill/Blue Pill stuff really comes off like the financial collapse of 2008. (Bare with me a second)

    The truth is that everyone got hit in the collapse. The main "causes" were regulation changes, encouragement over home ownership as regulatory policy and twisting banks to loan out too much. But that started in the early 90s. What really happened is that the rules of the ownership game got changed, and everyone tried to take advantage of it. No one was really minding the important structural aspects and it was just a matter of time. The 2008 collapse was baked into the cake after the Dot Com stock markets blew up in 2000. No one realized they'd planted a bomb inside the economy until it was too late.

    So the answer to "who is to blame for the 2008 collapse?" is: we all are. Every one of us had a part in it. Sucks, but it's the truth.

    The same is true of relationships and the entire mess in the SMP and family law. And there is legitimate anger, as there should be. But there's no one to take it out on.

    Yeah, the 3rd wave Feminist movement pretty much became warmed over misandry, but people could have stood up to most of what they preached, but they didn't change the laws. They aren't the ones that haven't changed the laws to reflect the new realities. They aren't the ones telling their sons completely worthless relationship information.

    We all have a part in the mess. Yes, it hurts losing relationships and having tectonic disasters for LTRs. But the anger is mostly at ourselves for losing the information that was always there. We, as a society, just chose to ignore its reality. So, we can only be angry at ourselves for the disaster.

    Sucks, but it's the truth.

  23. Interestingly for me, I went to a lecture recently about a new PBS documentary on Women, War and Peace. After soaking in the manosphere for a couple of years, it was a nice respite. It changed my perspective to realize that women of the world still have their own problems to deal with.

    The newsflash is that we all have problems. For women, most men can still physically overpower most women. That's a heck of a way to live. For most men, we respond to that knowledge by becoming too-nice doormats hoping to compensate for the jerks. That's also a heck of a way to live.

    The series is coming up on PBS soon if you want your own dose of perspective.

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