Why MMSL Is The Manosphere’s Root Beer

Ted said (answering Lainey) – I fully admit that my anger is my issue to resolve. And I don’t use it as an excuse to treat people badly. But I think you truly underestimate the anguish taking the red pill can cause. Many of the guys here have been treated badly. Some are in relationships going sour, and some like myself found this site after years of living in misery followed by divorce. I lucked out because my ex is actually a good person,and we did not split hating and resenting each other. However I am a rare case, and every other man I know got royally screwed in court during their divorce.
Now imagine one of those men coming here and learning that the reason they got screwed was because they were fed a bunch of bull from an early age. I often feel like I was setup to fail by the people I love and trusted as a child and young adult. So yeah, I have some anger to work through. I’m glad you feel a bit of empathy for men like me, but I truly don’t think you understand how traumatic all this can be.
Athol: This is an important point to discuss and I take a purposely different approach than most everywhere else in the Manosphere on this issue.
Ted is right. There are genuine reasons to feel rage about these things. There is often little reason for the rage to ever fade either. Plus I get that being happily married with a good sex life is like rubbing salt into open wounds for many.
I’ve also been told in no uncertain terms several dozen times in comments and via email that I have no idea how bad the pain is about getting divorced or having your children removed from you without just cause. A tiny handful of those one sided conversations have been quite nasty. I’ve thus avoided writing on “Men’s Rights” as much as possible. I always knew I was going to pull some hate, but I thought it would be feminists doing the screaming.
That being said, I believe mindless venting of that justifiable rage, can frequently damage the cause we seek to address.
When a Blue Pill Nice Guy with a serious relationship problem comes stumbling into the Manosphere looking for answers, he comes with a pro-female mindset. After coming across variants of “All women are devious whores!” a few dozen times – something possible in the comments of a single post on some blogs - he can easily become repulsed and move on in his search for truth. Then we call him a Mangina for good measure. We do this because insults make other people listen better and consider our viewpoint.
Likewise, sympathetic women reading the same venom quickly become unsympathetic women. At some point we’re going to want some things to go to a vote and there are more women than men that can vote. Therefore we need the support of women to at least some degree.
So I see my role in the Manosphere as a diplomatic outpost. Some people start here and then explore the rest of the Manosphere. Some people start elsewhere in the Manosphere and get directed here after being jilted by what they first discover. Me being happily married, having a great sex life and generally being a quirky Vulcan makes MMSL taste like… root beer.

Just there’s no yelling in diplomacy. That’s probably a rule somewhere.

There is good in this world, and it’s worth fighting for.

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Comments

  1. Lainey says:

    Bravo! I think you covered this nicely. :)

    It is hard sometimes. I do sympathize, but I feel maligned by some websites. Yeah, I'm probably taking things too personally.

    I'm no spring chicken either, guys. I'm 44, happily married, trying to do right by my man and kids, so I do chafe when the anti-woman thing gets going.

    Are things unfair for you guys? Yep, I agree. I agree even more since I have a teen son that will be hitting 18 soon.

    I cannot imagine going through divorce and not having access to your kids. It breaks my heart. Anyway, I get it. I hope you are healing, Ted and all of his ilk. Life is good. There are good people out there. Be happy.

  2. Ted says:

    Wow! Thanks Athol for reading my thoughts and expanding on them. I want you to know that you are one of the few positive voices that give me hope that I will get through all this without a total crash and burn.

    That being said, I also hope you know that although you promote a very postive message, in general this topic is very depressing for our target audience. I found MMSL very early in my search for why my marraige failed. As I've said before, my ex is a great person and I was at a total loss as to why we failed. She could not explain it either, but we ended up at "I love you, but I'm not in love with you". Anyway, I found your site and got the book. I was amazed at what I learned, but very doubtful that it was true. I tried a little MAP on my SO and got positive results. I don't know if you remember, but I emailed you concerned that doing what you suggest seemed very manipulative. The answer you gave in short was that woman naturally are attracted to this stuff, and as long as I was not being purposely manipulative that it would become second nature and all would hopefully be well.

    I wanted to know why your advice worked. You explain it in the book to an extent, but I wanted to know more. I went to Hooking Up Smart, and from there to Dalrock, Kane, and on to PUA sites like Roosh. What I learned reading these sites literally made me sick. Not just the content of the blogs, but the comments as well. I felt like an idiot. I felt lied to. I felt cheated. I realized that I spent years of time and effort trying to be what I was taught to be a "good man" only to learn the assholes I held in contempt for treating woman so badly had it right all along! I had travelled the hard road, staying true to my morals on the belief that it was the right path only to learn that the same women who told me I was going to make some woman a great husband were sleeping with those same assholes! And those same women would cry on my shoulder when they got dumped. I felt used.

    And here I am trying to reconcile all this while in a relaionship. Its hard to not wonder if I'm sleeping with the enemy sometimes. But at the same time, I can't be angry at my SO for her biology. I am angry that I wasn't correctly informed about it when I was younger. I am angry that all the important women in my life raised me to give women way more credit than they were due. I am angry that I was raised to be exactly the wrong kind of man to appeal to a womans biology becuase being a "manly man" was no way for an enlightened male to be.

    I want you and your readers to know how much this sucks. I don't want pity, I want understanding and acknowledgement. I consider myself to be decently educated and pretty well in control of my emotions. And as I said before, my divorce, although very disheartening, went rather well by all accounts. And *I* am this angry. I am surprised there are not more disrespectful and hateful comments made. I believe it is because you are a postive force, and I hope the relative peace your blog enjoys now continues. But the truth is, you are right. There is plenty to be angry about, and little to help the anger fade.

    I don't know what the answer is. If I find it, I promise you will be the next to know.

    Thanks for all of your efforts. You keep hope alive for many men out here.

  3. Anacaona says:

    Athol Kay for President!

    I really hope the MRA's do get this, that you are not soft for women's sake but for all their sake. Long term thinking of course.

    PS
    I'm stephenie rowling I'm using a new handle.

  4. Ted says:

    @ Lainey – thank you for your concern and kind words. I'm doing my best to keep a positive attitude. I have a 12 yo son myself, and my concern for his future is at the core of why I am trying to work through all this carefully, as well as concern for my current relationship. I can't decide what I should tell him now that I know all of this. I want him to know what to expect, but I don't want to come a bleak picture either. I loathe the idea that he may one day be part of the hookup culture, but I certainly wont fill his head with the nonsense I learned as a young boy. I'm taking time to work it all out first, but he is getting older, and time is in short supply.

    @ Anacaona – I think the MRAs that aren't totally blinded by rage already understand. If things start to improve for the better, more will follow. Right now the backlash is fresh, and the tempers are flaring.

    If things don't improve, expect the bitterness and anger to get worse.

  5. Looking Glass says:

    @ Ted:

    I can answer the "what to tell him". Have him read Detinennui32's advice post (sent to Danny):

    http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/detinennui32s-advice/

    When it comes to distilling down for teens, that's probably the best available option.

  6. Thunder says:

    Athol – I'd love to see a post by you on raising sons based on the red pill. I understand you don't have any boys, but I'm sure you've put some thought into what you would have done had you had them to raise.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Just to throw this out there: I'm one of the apparently many women who follows this blog, and am also encouraged by its relative lack of venom. Not surprisingly, I don't think all women are devious and heartless (not even biologically!). They get married wanting to live happily ever after, too, and "I love you but I'm not in love with you" is NOT fun, pleasant, or ideal. Just as there are some men who will walk at the drop of a hat, I'm sure there are some women who would do likewise, but most only get to that point after a lot of brow-beating and trying to figure out what the heck is wrong with them. Because we're raised in the exact same culture as the men. It's not as though all women know the "red pill" information and withhold it from men; we're all growing up in the same society and it's not benefitting either men or women.

    So yes, I very much sympathize with Ted and with anyone who has ever slowly, painfully and bewilderingly lost what they thought should have been a great relationship with a great person. The solution isn't blaming women, though. We live in the Matrix, too. We're only going to be able to improve things for everyone's benefit if we realize that we're all on the same side.

    If you're a man and you don't think it's worth being in an LTR with a woman, you can always donate sperm to carry on your genes. Otherwise, let's work together here! Anything else is unproductive at best.

  8. Robertson says:

    I think the challenge for a lot of us guys who are angry, bitter, depressed, etc. is not to become the male versions of feminist harpies …

  9. GC says:

    "I realized that I spent years of time and effort trying to be what I was taught to be a "good man" only to learn the assholes I held in contempt for treating woman so badly had it right all along! I had traveled the hard road, staying true to my morals on the belief that it was the right path only to learn that the same women who told me I was going to make some woman a great husband were sleeping with those same assholes!"

    I am not in any way discounting Ted's pain, but I think that this statement reflects a "manosphere view" of women which is just flat out wrong. Men who act like jerks toward women do not have it right. Many women are looking for a good man who will treat them well, as opposed to some sleazy one-night-stand Gamer. Many women hold moral, ethical or religious beliefs that favor marriage, commitment, and family. They don't all act on their biology and fling themselves at jerks every time they ovulate! The problem, though, is that they want that man to be a MAN, not a girlfriend with a penis. But – and here's the heart of the problem – they often don't know that and neither does the man, because we have been taught that men need to be more like women – just bigger and taller women. So, in my view, men who want a good women just need to "Alpha up" a bit and have that great Alpha-Beta balance that Athol preaches. Heavy "gaming" is not required – I really think that some fun, light MMSL-type "game" is all it takes.

  10. Ted says:

    I get that blaming women doesn't help. But understand that it was indeed the parental women (grandmother, mother, aunts, etc…) that participated in my upbringing that ultimately led to my relationship issues. I know beyond all doubt that they did NOT intentionally sacrifice me on the alter of feminism, but the outcome seems to be about the same as if they did. And surely any reasonable person (even myself) understands that the real jerks don't have it all correct. They suck at LTRs, but man do they know how to get female attention. Why? Because one way or the other, they did not believe the bull they were fed by society, the school system, and their own parents.

    It is also entirely possible that this is a generation problem, and that my son and his circle will not face the same difficulties I and my circle have. They seem to be well aware that women are no less horny than men. They seem to get that they aren't required to "rescue" a woman, to be their savor. They don't treat women with kid gloves. They don't open doors for them. For the longest time, I thought this was a bad thing. That it meant honor and chivalry were fading away. Now I realize I was the fool to ever believe any of that. I was the idiot for putting women on a pedestal. For thinking I was supposed to be the white knight to rescue the damsel in distress.

    Up until recently, I used to argue that romance was alive and well. I was wrong. Romance never existed. It was a fairy tale told to children to give them, something. I honestly don't know what. But what it DID do is create a large pool of men that have no idea how to behave like a man. In fact, much of what we used to consider "manly" behavior was driven out of us by our parents and teachers. We were shamed for acting like a man, thinking like a man, and feeling like a man, because being a man made us oppressive to women. THAT is the lie that angers me the most. And I do tend to blame women for that. I highly doubt that any man on planet earth woke up one day and decided that he was the oppressor. The quest for equality became the quest for power the second society started forcing boys not to be men.

  11. Anonymous says:

    GC: That's a good point. A lot of women are unhappy because they've been told they should like sensitive, caring guys, but a billion years of evolution are screaming inside their head for them to want a manly one.

    The trouble is that "feminists" have so completely hijacked the discourse that this statement is immediately dismissed as sexist, hurtful, misogynist, yadda yadda etc. As a result, most women will never hear this, and most of the ones who do will think it's wrong.

    "Feminism" is all about destroying personal ties so that the only relationships anyone has are political. "The personal is political," as Steinem put it. The Party is their only emotional outlet; witness the blatantly needy, adolescent-crush attraction so many of Barack Obama's followers have for him. That's the fruit of a generation of "feminism."

  12. Ted says:

    @ Looking Glass – thank you for the link! That is by far the best post I've seen on the topic. As the father of a son and a daughter, it will help me explain the realities of the SMP much better than I could have hoped to on my own at this point.

    I wish someone would have told me this when I was a teen.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Ted: Thanks for your writing. You've articulated the emotions quite well.

    GC: I disagree that the "manosphere" view of women is wrong. It is true that there are women out there who want their marriages to work, and there are women who want to marry and stay married. But having said that, there are mountains of evidence, scientific, anecdotal and otherwise, that irrefutably supports what the so-called "men's rights" activists say. Divorce theft, women's maltreatment of men, women cheating on their beta husbands — it's all there. In fact, some of it is here at MMSL.

    Ted: Thanks for saying it so well.

    Anacaona (The commenter formerly known as Stephenie Rowling): That advice at danny's site is primarily geared for young unmarried men in high school, college and in early bachelorhood. I'll use it on my son when he's older.

    detinennui32

  14. Anonymous says:

    GC said: "The problem, though, is that they want that man to be a MAN, not a girlfriend with a penis. But – and here's the heart of the problem – they often don't know that and neither does the man, because we have been taught that men need to be more like women – just bigger and taller women. So, in my view, men who want a good women just need to "Alpha up" a bit and have that great Alpha-Beta balance that Athol preaches."

    The problem GC sets out is compounded when men then start "alphaing up". The woman or wife responds by calling him a sexist, misogynyist, patriarchal, an emotional retard, and many other forms of shaming. The best response for a man in this situation is to keep doing what you're doing and don't let anyone shame you into returning to beta. A woman who isn't responding to some alpha in you probably will never respond to you.

    And: my comment to anacaona should have been directed to looking glass.

    detinennui32

  15. Brian C. Rideout says:

    Athol,

    Timely as usual!

    Today I am working on a post about respecting women: what that should mean, what it shouldn't, and how it actually comes about. Reading this post really helped me figure out how I was going to articulate my ideas.

    As I was working this idea in my head while shaving I came to realize that it was the missing ingredient in so many Manosphere / MRA blogs. They have felt under attack for so long that they see Women as the Enemy, and purge themselves of respect for them.

    They keep forgetting a point that is at the core of your message: Women and Men are partners. We cannot survive as a species without one another; and we can't be together if we don't have respect for each other. Respect is vital to any relationship, but a marriage is, as you have shown, made or broken by it.

    I suspect that respect for Women is the sasparilla in MMSL… and being the root beer of the Manosphere is certainly no bad thing.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Great post and great comments!

    I think a lot of former blue pill beta guys have actually been angry a very long time, after all, we've spent years experiencing that things almost never work the way we've expected them to work. Be nice, be yourself, be respectful, self sacrifice, all the platitudes.
    We worked very hard to be all those things, sensitive, caring, etc. Only to be told by the women we wanted what "good friends" we were and struggling as our marriages failed, working ever harder at the wrong things.

    Yeah, I think most men in this situation have been angry for a long time, it's just now come to the surface. We just never had the language and knowledge to address it and point it out before. It's unfortunate that in so much of the manosphere that anger is allowed to just boil over and saturate everything.

    MMSL is an oasis of calm pragmatism in a desert of polarized positions and polarizing statements.

    SW-AL

  17. Anonymous says:

    I'm another angry one in my early 50's following a failed marriage, a failed LTR and too many dates that went nowhere when I wanted them to go somewhere. Intellectually I've taken the red pill, I understand the dynamics better than I did before. But it's just that I'm an introvert who's been so deeply programmed the wrong way that it is just very, very hard work to get away from that. I have stopped reading Spearhead and some of the other more vituperative manosphere sites to get away from the negativity on those sites. But I'm still watching the girls run in the other direction if I can get them as far as a coffee or drinks date. I think my anger is still showing up somehow, not to mention the women have that sixth sense about my programming. Somewhere, somehow I know I have to let that anger go. And dump the programming crap in a good way.

    Along those lines, I've been researching steps I can take to deprogram myself so I'm wondering if Athol or anyone else knows of books, programs or other online resources worth looking into. Maybe someone knows of a good post somewhere summarizing the best of what's out there for guys like me.

  18. Lainey says:

    If you haven’t read LG’s post in the previous thread, please do : http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/09/positive-and-productive.html#comments
    I think he made a very good case for all of us sharing the blame.

    The fact is that marriage and LTRs are hard. If two people aren’t working at it then it will fail or be less satisfying. Men adding alpha traits to their arsenal can be a good idea, but sometimes adding in too much alpha too fast on a wife when your marriage is already limping along may cause more harm than good.

    Someone else wrote that if a woman doesn’t respond to a man’s alpha they won’t respond no matter what. I don’t think that is true. I know the manosphere teaches that women are all the same, but they aren’t. Sure we all want financial security, safe homes and good dads for kids, a strong man, etc., but women do want varying degrees of alpha and beta in a man. When a man finds himself with a woman that adores him he really doesn’t have to flex his alpha skills nearly as much as you think. Finding that balance of alpha and beta can be difficult, if a guy just says, “ this is me being alpha, take it or leave it,” well, if you have a crippled marriage she may leave it.

    I think men and women are too hard on each other in marriage. I have a good marriage. I love my husband and find him sexy, but marriage is HARD. It just is. People are imperfect and to expect a spouse to meet all of your needs or respond exactly as you want just isn’t reasonable. There are people who are married or in LTRs and it seems like they are trying to find something to be irritated about. For example, the man that wrote about all the sex he was having but felt his wife wasn’t into it. Yes, the wife can act more affectionate, but I think Eric had a good point. How much are we expecting our spouses to fulfill our every need? Are we expecting too much? Do we assume the worst of our spouse? I think people in relationships should just agree to assume the best of each other. Life and relationships are hard enough without looking for issues. Could the husband have not cuddled with her after and say, “You know what really turns me on when we do…..” It seems like we make things more complicated than it has to be.

  19. David says:

    Athol! You inveterate Star Trek geek! :-)

    It was a minor point in your post, but I want to express my disagreement with the (commonly accepted) notion that insulting others causes them to listen more closely to what you are saying. I don't think this is true. I think it rather tends to turn people off to what are you saying and moves them to look for someone else, someone who might be calmer, more level-headed, more reasonable, and basically happier and better adjusted. In any event I think this caustic attitude many of us take toward those with whom we disagree wears out not only the individuals themselves but also our social fabric. We would do well, I think, to exercise more patience and respect for one another, betting on the good will and ultimate sincerity of the people we encounter.

    Just had to get that off my chest. This is something that bothers me a great deal about the MRM as it currently stands — namely that more than a few pockets of said movement subscribe to this notion that the best pedagogy is one that humiliates and demeans.

    I applaud you, Athol, for your diplomatic approach to the problem. How does the saying go? More flies with honey rather than vinegar or something like that. Now I've called your readers flies. Apparently diplomacy is not *my* strong suit!

    Anyway, all this being said, I hear Ted in his frustration with a world that neither understands nor cares to understand. His situation and mine are apparently quite different — I've never been married — but it seems to me that men are rather the invisible sex, that few (even among men) understand the suffering many men have endured, especially where relationships are concerned. There is not much social support for guys like these so they are mostly dealing with it on their own.

    This is the sort of thing the MRM can help address. On the other hand, if it continues to indulge in its anger, bitterness, and resentment, and uses anger as the primary node by which to interface with the rest of the world, it will, ultimately, cause more harm than good.

  20. Brian C. Rideout says:

    Anonymous,

    I am currently developing a program like the one you are describing. My focus is on a whole-Man reprogramming, because relationship issues usually come hand-in-hand with self-image, health, and career issues. My basics are here:

    http://wildman.newworldscoaching.ca/?page_id=31

    and I am working on an ebook to give people practical exercises for each of those steps.

    I am also offering a coaching program. Have a look at my website, if you are interested, drop me an email. If not, drop em one anyway, and I can point you to a few resources I draw inspiration from that might help.

    Athol,

    Apologies for the shameless self-promotion. I suspect I owe you another plug.

  21. Anacaona says:

    @Ted
    I understand and I hope you are right. We really need to get a voice at the top of the chain and rage won't do the job, IMO. YMMV.

  22. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Ted: I agree with the vast majority of what you said, but I'd like to address a few points. Firstly, your contention that Chivalry was a lie, like romance. I can see how you would see that, but I think you misunderstand the nature of Chivalry and how it evolved.

    Chivalry was, first and foremost, a warrior's code. It was designed to help big strapping men with swords deal with each other on and off the field of combat. It was a system of standardization of values in warfare that, while extending to proper and appropriate conduct off the field, was based in any given man's ability to slaughter at will with a sword and armor. Among the tenants of Chivalry were those codes of manners and courtesy, primarily to one's opponents and lieges, but also extended to the clergy, women, children ("the weak"). The purpose was to self-regulate the conduct of knights, using their honor as a benchmark. Then the Church got ahold of it, and then in the 14th century it collided with Courtly Love in France and we haven't been the same since.

    Unfortunately, the courtesy aspect of Chivalry came to take over the word in the 19th century, after an armed aristocracy gave way to massed soldiery. The code was nominally preserved among the wealthy and the military, but largely abandoned elsewhere as anti-egalitarian and unProgressive. When Feminism erupted in the 1960s, they attacked the concept, the code, and the last dregs of how it was being practiced, without understanding the bedrock concepts in the slightest.

    So let me lay it out for you: Chivalry wasn't a lie, it was subverted from its original purpose. And originally, you couldn't practice Chivalry without first becoming a sword-slinging brute able to mow down helpless villagers. The impetus of Chivalry comes from strength, particularly strength of arms, and a willingness to do violence.

    Don't ever forget that.

    It's also vital to remember that within the code of Chivalry, the courtesy with which it is often confused is predicated on the idea of Grace: in other words, if chivalrous courtesy becomes socially mandatory, as some would have it, then it ceases becoming chivalrous. In yet other words, the exercise of Chivalry isn't giving up your seat for a woman on a bus, it's in refraining from using your superior size/strength/prowess from killing her and taking her stuff. Giving up your seat for her is an extension of that — you are demonstrating not merely your unwillingness to cause her harm, but your grace in not harming her when you could and your further grace in treating her with respect and decorum . . . when there is no other compelling reason to do so. Her respect and behavior towards you in return is her response to your grace. If she freaks out about your atavistic and sexist behavior, the code of Chivalry does not demand that you continue to extend that grace to her, and even discourages encouraging that kind of poor behavior. Chivalry cannot be demanded, it cannot be extorted, and it cannot be compelled.

    Some of these concepts can get a little murky over the years, as different generations interpret them through their own filters. But you should never discount Chivalry as dead . . . or harmless. The proper exercise of Chivalry as a spiritual and social discipline is the height of manliness, it never goes out of style, and its essential function is even more important today, when every frustrated beta-man in America can walk into a store and buy a gun.

    IMO, Chivalry (properly understood and practiced) is among one of the most powerful tools in your Arsenal of Manly Things. Once it's reclaimed and revalorized, it can provide you a platform for your rage and frustration and give you alternative means of expressing them without handing your testicles over to someone else.

  23. Anonymous says:

    I agree completely with Robertson and GC.

    In response to the concern that men who "alpha-up" will just cause their wives to shame them, that depends on what you're picturing. Plenty of Athol's male readers have written in saying they did and got adoring wives and lots of sex. But if the epitome of manliness is becoming a fat slob, spending 12 hours a day drinking beer and belching in front of the TV and completely ignoring the kids, it might not go so well.

    I also suspect Ted's right about a generational effect… Women were stuck in a very limited role not so long ago, and having the choice to work outside the home, play sports, etc, is a real improvement. Then for a while, the situation overcorrected: women were traitors to the sex if they did anything traditionally feminine, and equality became the watchword for relationships. It's just starting to be ok for women to be feminine again, which should let men be masculine again too. We young women can wear flowered dresses again rather than power suits. Some of my friends would love to devote themselves to a husband and family rather than a career, but it's still pretty taboo to admit it. Women read this blog and *want* their men to "alpha-up". Even the Sweet Potato Queens dream of having a fireman carry them around on their birthday… The pendulum is swinging, and now is not the time to give girls a good reason to believe older generations who say that men are evil! Maybe we can finally, finally reach real balance.

  24. Anonymous says:

    As for "divorce theft, women's maltreatment of men, women cheating on their beta husbands," yeah, people do terrible things sometimes. Just talking about relationships, some men certainly cheat on their wives, and some mistreat women. I firmly believe that most people get married with excellent intentions. Sometimes they're human and they fail (or what they've been told to do just doesn't work!), but that doesn't mean these extreme cases are typical.

  25. Anonymous says:

    RE chivalry – what you wrote is largely garbage. "Chivalry" was an invention in an attempt by the early church to force the square peg of an armed military elite with the power of life and death into the round hole of a pacifistic religious worldview. Hence you got the idea that the "chivalrous" knight was pure, fought for god and glory etc. Chivalry was an attempt to make the violent ideals of pre-christian societies acceptable to the turn the other cheek brigade.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Anon @ 4:43 pm: "if the epitome of manliness is becoming a fat slob, spending 12 hours a day drinking beer and belching in front of the TV and completely ignoring the kids, it might not go so well."

    Strawman argument. Neither I, nor Athol, nor anyone else is advocating that kind of male behavior. That is not "alphaing up" at all, nor is it the "epitome of manliness".

    detinennui32

  27. Anonymous says:

    @detinennui32

    >>That is not "alphaing up" at all, nor is it the "epitome of manliness".
    Agree 110%, and I think you're right that most other people do, too. Not so much a strawman as directly disagreeing with the statement that women would rebel at "alphaing up", unless that's how it was being used. I am completely in favor of alpha as described by Athol.

    Anon 4:43

  28. just visiting says:

    Chivalry or for that matter,romance are not garbage. That's as bad as feminazis bemoaning nurturing or not riding the carousel.

    What people can't seem to get through their heads is that it always has to come from a place of strength, and it always has to come from a place of grace. It's power comes from the offering, but never from obligation. And as much as the manosphere bristles the way a feminazi would at the mere mention of chivalry, it doesn't negate the fact that mastery of it is powerful. Feminists despise it, because it's a power they can never wield, and because they realize that only someone stronger can offer to someone weaker. (And they never like to be viewed as weak.) It is a power that is entirely masculine and ONLY masculine. Carrying off chivalry is a lot like carrying off game. It requires a frame, strength ,and mastery.

  29. Robertson says:

    LOL…this is part of the confusing aspect of the manosphere. I also did think holding the door for a woman was being manly, and that was underlined by the resentment some of the more outspoken feminists had for me doing that. Someone ought to compile a list of entirely contradictory rules that can be found in the manosphere.

    Anonymous 1:42, I hear you and I think it's especially difficult if you're older. Ingrained patterns are so difficult. My overall shyness still bothers me, even though I'm married. Actually, I shouldn't say shyness, I'm not as shy as I used to be…rather, the discomfort I feel at being cocky, fun, lighthearted etc. toward women in general. Even though I can completely be that way with my wife. No problem, really, except what goes on between my ears.

    Anonymous 1:42. When you have an overall good marriage that you want to make better, I think it can upset the apple cart being too alpha. I'm in the process of trying to remember that, tone down what I've been trying and most of all, not look at my wife as a potential enemy. Of all the things I've internalized from Athol, what's taken most and worked best is my regular working out and bulking up a bit. I started off slamming down what I was now perceiving as fitness tests and that's actually caused more problems. I'm working now on being cool about them. Not allowing them, but being putting them down without losing my own cool.

  30. Lainey says:

    Robert, you explained exactly what I meant by acting too alpha. Thank you. :)

    If one means alpha as in exercising, taking care of themselves, etc. that is fine. When a guy starts being too bossy or confrontational without any explanation it can really hurt a rocky marriage. I'm sure most get it, but the alpha/beta issues can be confusing.

  31. Robertson says:

    You're welcome Lainey. Perhaps you'll note something else — working out, taking care of yourself, dressing better: those are things you can easily do without trying to affect dramatic changes to your own personality. In a sense, they are the easy and effective things. Not to say sticking with a regime of exercising five times a week is necessarily easy, but it's just a matter of doing it. There's no conscious reprogramming of your behavior, no monitoring yourself 24-7 to ensure you say/do the right thing, and none of what for me is hardest of all: knowing what to do or so in a given situation where you're not sure which rule applies.

  32. Athol Kay says:

    Appreciate all the comments.

    See, we can get along.

    (Stephanie… you aren't helping my case that women aren't all dangerous snakes by rebranding yourself as "Anaconda" lol.)

  33. MarkyMark says:

    I think the challenge for a lot of us guys who are angry, bitter, depressed, etc. is not to become the male versions of feminist harpies …

    Why shouldn't we emulate the feminists? Did they not KICK OUR SORRY ASSES in this 'war of the sexes'? Did they not totally REMAKE society and culture in their image? Did they not become the power to deal with in society? By any objective metric, the feminists won a resounding victory.

    Ergo, we should take a look at what they did; how DID they kick our asses so resoundingly? Would it not be fair to say that their strident rhetoric was a big part of it? Would it not be fair to say that their passion for their cause (yes, including the hatred of men) be part of it? Yes, yes I think so. The feminists were very successful; shouldn't we look at what they did to ACHIEVE this? We'd be FOOLS not to..

  34. Lainey says:

    "There's no conscious reprogramming of your behavior, no monitoring yourself 24-7 to ensure you say/do the right thing, and none of what for me is hardest of all: knowing what to do or so in a given situation where you're not sure which rule applies."

    Does anyone know what to say or do to everything? I don't think so. :) I do think that we often treat strangers better than our spouses. I think it is so important to pick battles, and assume the best. This is what I do, and I really, really appreciate it when my hubby does the same to me. None of us are perfect.

    I don't think I fitness test, but I've read here that I wouldn't know if I did. LOL

    I don't think there is a magic formula to figure women out, we are all different, just like men. I mean yes, there are some basic similarities for every man or woman, but some women want a more alpha or beta man than others, and hopefully the couple can find that alpha/beta balance that makes them both happy.

    If the couple can laugh at their failed attempts (there will be failures), and not take themselves too seriously it is much easier. Throw in a little trust, forgiveness, respect, and love and that to me is a preferable formula. I'm not saying go beta, but to find that balance and not get uptight over it.

    Do you fellows tell your wife/girlfriend that you are using "game" or adding alpha traits? My husband knows I am interested in this, and while he has no interest in the manosphere himself, he's enjoyed the information I've shared with him as we are both happier and he definitely is rewarded. It's not perfect, but perfection is overrated. Who really wants to be with perfect?

  35. Robertson says:

    Marky, they fouled their own nest as well. They are hardly happy people. Besides, why would you expect a good woman to marry a dour, bitter man?

  36. Robertson says:

    Lainey: "some women want a more alpha or beta man than others, and hopefully the couple can find that alpha/beta balance that makes them both happy."

    I strive to remember this too, trying to remind myself that my wife fell in love with and married the guy who had never been exposed to the manosphere.

    As for whether I tell her about game, the answer is no. Athol and I have talked about this and he feels I should, but I can't yet get past the feeling that she would see it as artificial and a weakness. She does, however, know that I've been working to improve myself in various ways.

  37. Lainey says:

    "As for whether I tell her about game, the answer is no. Athol and I have talked about this and he feels I should, but I can't yet get past the feeling that she would see it as artificial and a weakness. She does, however, know that I've been working to improve myself in various ways. "

    That is understandable. Your wife is a fortunate woman. I believe that trying to improve yourself and your relationship is the most loving gesture a spouse can make.

  38. Athol Kay says:

    MarkyMark – It's quite possible to be passionate without hatred.

    Is a life of anger, bitterness and depression truly the life you want to lead?

  39. just visiting says:

    @ Marky

    I understand the bitterness. How did they do it? The helping hand of the media, movies, magazines, universities, and lotsa government funding. Good luck, back in the day trying to speak out against it. No letter to the editor would get published. No university would allow discourse, and the media and movies are very liberal.

    The internet changed the grip of power. Messages that were silenced can't be silenced. Expect change. Becoming your enemy will only make you as bitter and twisted as them.

  40. Robertson says:

    Thank you Lainey, that's kind of you to say. You know, the end result is I want us both to be happier. I do want to find my own resolution to issues that I've carried since childhood, issues that harmed me greatly relating to women, and thank the Lord I had already achieved enough of that to attract a good woman (and a looker!). But my ultimate goal is to be as comfortable as I can in my own skin, and to let go of the past.

  41. MarkyMark says:

    @ Just Visiting,

    I understand the tight fisted hold on information that the PC orthodoxy had; remember, I'm old enough to remember a time when there were only THREE TV networks! If they didn't want something out there, it wasn't out there-end of story.

    With the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, talk radio became the first, viable form of what's now called the alternative media. Rush Limbaugh and other non-PC personalities started their rise to prominence in the late 1980s. Even so, it took the Internet to REALLY break the stranglehold on information.

    Having said that, even though the feminists had LOTS of help (from big wigs in both the private & public sectors for different reasons) disseminating their agenda; even though feminism was hardly a spontaneous, grass roots movement; there remains one, important, overlooked fact: feminism couldn't have gotten ANY traction without women BUYING INTO IT! If women didn't buy into feminism, en masse, then we wouldn't be where we are today.

    @ Robertson, I don't see how the feminists fouled their nest-not when they got everything they wanted and more; not when they totally remade society as we know it.

    @Athol, no, I don't want to live a life of bitterness, anger, etc. That said, I don't want to lead a life of a SECOND CLASS CITIZEN, either! I was falsely accused back in the late 1990s, and brother, you have no idea how men's rights have been totally taken away. What I experienced would make a kangaroo court look honest…

  42. Athol Kay says:

    Marky – knock off the caps please. It's yelling.

    Please don't insult me that I don't understand Men's Rights simply because I haven't experienced false arrest.

    I do grow seriously tired of not being abused enough to be part of the team. This is the way I am going, let me do my thing.

  43. MarkyMark says:

    I was simply saying what kind of world and life I want to live, and it's not as a second class citizen.

  44. Robertson says:

    Marky, I think they fouled their own nest by getting what they wanted, or at least what many thought they wanted. Unfortunately, they fouled the nest for everyone else as well, including men and the many women who were sold a bill of goods, or went along for the ride, or simply now live in a world they had no part in making.

    Look, I have plenty to be bitter about myself, and I work at getting over it. But while wallowing in the bitterness and casting oneself as a victim has certain short term benefits — feeling the blame lies elsewhere foremost among them — it's ultimately self defeating. Feeling put upon and wronged is a hole that if you don't dig out of, you stay in. Your best revenge is …what is that they say? Living well.

  45. Anacaona says:

    "(Stephanie… you aren't helping my case that women aren't all dangerous snakes by rebranding yourself as "Anaconda" lol.)"

    Is anaCAONA like a Taino princess from Dominican Republic. After that horrible movie with Jennifer-alpha carouseler-Lopez, Anaconda is as good of a name as Ishtar, no way jose ;)

  46. MarkyMark says:

    Athol,

    I wasn't trying to say that, because you haven't been falsely accused, that you're not doing something to help. Having said that, unless you've actually BEEN through something in this life, there's no way to adequately appreciate the experience. Believe me, when you're faced with having your life destroyed (especially after having to rebuild it), it changes your perception; it changes your life; you never feel the same way again.

    I no longer believe that we live in the America I grew up in. Oh, we still exist as a political and geographical entity, and will continue to do so for years to come. However, we have forever lost the IDEAL of America, i.e. the Constitution, the Declaration, and all that they stand for; we no longer live in a free nation. The Founding Fathers wouldn't recognize America in its present form. That breaks my heart and angers me at the same time.

    Also, there are time that's it's best to fight fire with fire-not water, not foam, not PKP, or anything else-just fire. Feminism might be best fought by using their methods; after all, they were bloody effective…

    MarkyMark

  47. Athol Kay says:

    Marky – you're trying to convince me to start doing what I made explicitly clear in the post I was purposely not doing. Because that is the role I've purposely choosen.

    You are simply not listening.

    This is a carefully crafted position I have taken, for a purpose.

  48. MarkyMark says:

    Athol,

    How am I trying to convince you to deviate from your raison d'etre? I never did such a thing. I was merely trying to share my perspective, nothing more. You provide a valuable service, and if I knew of a guy having relationship or marriage trouble, I'd refer him here; I think he'd get the help he needs.

    That said, some of us prefer not to be root beer; I'm one of those. I take a different position, because at my age (49), I'm out of the marriage/breeding race. Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree…

    MarkyMark

  49. Ted says:

    I have no intention of living my life angry and bitter. I have a family, and a woman that for all my faults loves me. I WANT to enjoy it! I don't walk around all day thinking about how oppressed I am, but I do often sit and wonder just how off the mark I am. Am I catching and dodging the shit tests? Am I incorrectly showing weakness when I do something nice for my SO? Was that off-handed comment she just made something I need to swat down, or was it just her being playful? I swear some days I find myself second guessing everything I do or say, and that is certainly not helping my confidence level at all. Frankly I think my confidence was better before I knew all this, but I had that nagging feeling that I was missing something important, and started looking.

    Its fine. I know this is just part of how I digest and reconcile my feelings. My biggest problem is doing that while maintaining healthy relationships with my family. I had no idea it could be so difficult just trying to relate to people I love and care about.

    @ Marky – I have no idea what can be done to turn this around. Right now, I'm working on getting my head straight and making sure I'm on the right path. I can tell you this: My children will not be as clueless as I was. Maybe that is truly our best bet. It may be too late for us to see the results of a good push back on feminism, but our kids have a fighting shot, IF we can keep them from being brainwashed like we were…

  50. Ian Ironwood says:

    @MarkyMark:

    I think your assessment of feminism is built on shaky ground. Bear with me on this.

    You lay the blame for the sudden cataclysmic change in the traditional male-female dynamic, which has caused us all so much stress, at the feet of the feminists, but while they played their role in the chaos, feminism was an inevitable and natural side-effect of the real issue that caused the heterosexual social contract: industrialization and birth control.

    Industrialization allow nearly every woman to get off the 19th century farm and go to work in a factory, which may not sound glamorous, but it basically allowed women to function economically independent of men for the first time . . . ever. They made their own money and didn't need to depend on men for support. Big change. And then birth control allowed them to take control of their genetic destiny for the first time . . . ever. Another big change. Women were suddenly able to have sex without a tremendous risk of pregnancy, which shattered the biological and social pattern that had held sway for millennia. So we went from 10,000 years of social evolution in one direction, and then developed technologies that destroyed the underlying reasoning behind the impetus of that evolution. The result was revolution — the Sexual Revolution.

    Feminism was born out of that, and like I said, it was inevitable. Women had to craft an entirely new model if womanhood, and we had to craft an entirely new model for male response to womanhood — and our own masculinity. So it was inevitable that extreme voices in the early stages of this social revolution would not only be heard louder than more cautious and thoughtful ones, but would also, due to the nature of their extremism and the desperation on the part of women to define themselves, get the most press and have a disproportional impact.

    Conversely, the Manosphere and the internet have allowed men the technological parity to finally begin to re-define and re-design ourselves, and that was inevitable as well. And it sounds . . . strange to hear it, but men are themselves undergoing a revolution in thought due to this technological change, one that has some very disturbing overtones for the next few generations of women.

    Because while industrialization and birth control allowed women to work for security (a primary desire of the gender) for themselves and their offspring (if they chose to have them), the internet has now given men access to unprecedented social freedom to indulge their sexual drives independent of a stable relationship. Thanks to the internet, we have 24/7 porn, access to anonymous sex in a thousand different varieties, and thanks to the internet dating sites we are no longer limited in our choice of females to those who live within our proximity.

    Put another way, the young woman who might want to get married to a young man in America today is competing not only against every other girl within driving distance for a man, she's competing with every young woman on the planet who has an internet connection. And even if she does get married, there is a looming insecurity about the possibility of infidelity — and infidelity that can be easily arranged, hidden, and concealed from her.

    I'm not saying there isn't blame to go around — plenty for all, and we're still making more. But railing against feminism is like railing against a hurricane. It might make you feel better, but when viewed in context and seen for what it is, you recognize that the underlying social forces which brought it into being are now being used to erode it, and will ultimately transform it into a mere intellectual exercise, not a potent social force.

  51. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Anonymous re: Chivalry

    While the most commonly recognized form of Chivalry was, indeed, co-opted by the medieval Church for its own purposes, the root of the Code predates Christianity by over a thousand years . . . in Europe alone. In China, it goes back 4,000 years BCE. Viewed properly as a warriors' code without the Christian gloss, the strength and vitality of the code is easily apparent as a valid response to our collective confusion about modern masculinity.

  52. Anonymous says:

    This is Anon@1:42pm yesterday speaking. I can understand a little bit of what happened to Marky Mark.

    At 27, I was accused of harassment of a female co-worker of the same age. I could not figure out for the life of me what I had done wrong, but my career at that company was nearly deep-sixed. I was told "it's only harassment if she doesn't like you." But then I was counseled that I can't tell therefore I shouldn't do anything at all. Well how the heck am I supposed to figure that out and learn to socialize myself against such stigmas? Remember I'm an introvert, I took that too personal and I shut down at work. Which was not good for my social development, I know that now. I'm sure I missed a few opportunities over the years.

    It took me another twenty years including an LTR, a marriage, tons of failed tests and numerous LBJF requests before I finally got a glimmer of understanding of the female dynamic at work in all of these episodes.

    The anger is a reaction to the thousand cuts over the years since high school. I think the deepest part of this anger is knowing I'll never be a father because I didn't have the knowledge needed to find and keep a worthy woman back during that critical period from 25 to 40. On the bright side, I'm not Sodini. I know holding that anger the way Marky Mark does is not healthy and while it is damn hard to set it aside, that is the direction I've set for myself even as I reconcile myself to the female casualties out there that are all that's left for a man like myself.

    All that said, when I talk to young men who are contemplating marriage, I tell them to be absolutely sure of their fiance and then I refer them to Dalrock's interview criteria for vetting her and to MMSL for keeping her.

  53. Robertson says:

    Ted: "I do often sit and wonder just how off the mark I am. Am I catching and dodging the shit tests? Am I incorrectly showing weakness when I do something nice for my SO? Was that off-handed comment she just made something I need to swat down, or was it just her being playful? I swear some days I find myself second guessing everything I do or say"

    Yeah, that. That's led to some overreaction and being too harsh on my part. Maybe this is a natural part of the whole progression. For my part, I've toned it down and I only react strongly to the more obvious stuff, and more coolly to the less obvious (or at least trying to do this). Many times she is just having fun with me. I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this.

  54. Anonymous says:

    If you're doing the playful and cocky thing, then it makes a lot of sense for your wives to be playful back. Probably means you're doing it right! Try not to squelch her playful side if you can help it, I think that's one way of describing what MMSL tries to promote :-)

  55. Robertson says:

    Yeah…it can be hard though when you get into the teasing thing. I think there, there are shades of gray with fitness testing. I don't always read it right with her. I need to work more on myself as well. I still miss plenty of good opportunities to be playful, and something I don't get her at the right time. Or she rolls her eyes and I can tell she's not impressed or she finds me juvenile. Like I said before, she fell in love with me without a lot of this. But I want to use it to make things stronger. Trial and error, and YMMV, as they say.

  56. Anonymous says:

    "But at the same time, I can't be angry at my SO for her biology."

    In contrast, plenty of women consider themselves justified in being angry at men for their biology. Funny how that works.

    Höllenhund

  57. Ted F. says:

    Athol – sounds like there are a lot of us out here confused about shit tests. Maybe we could use a little more guidance? I get that this is a tough subject, but the truth is worrying about detecting and passing them is certainly giving me difficulties. Its tough to build confidence and get the right frame if I'm always second guessing myself.

  58. Anonymous says:

    When a woman comes across a website (or newsprint article, internet blog, radio program, etc.), she hears all men are pigs, rapists, etc. She believes it, and that mindset is reinforced in school, in the media and in the structure of our legal system.

    Abducting the children of a dehumanized Other is almost a good deed in that context, as is stealing his money. Making false accusations against a pig is no big deal, either. So the pig goes to jail, so what? If you are a woman you won't see any significant repercussion to your false accusation.

    You may even be rewarded with more wealth from your ex-husband, which you can now access since he's in prison and can't fight you.

    And if you molest a young Man, well, you're not really going to get punished for it either. You may even get to collect child support from your victim.

    MMSL is still a bit of a pipe dream for the tiny percentage of men overall who are happily married. They are happily married at the discretion of their legally privileged wives.

    Meanwhile, the state of California is considering the release of thousands of prisoners to save costs.

    Female prisoners only, of course.

    Caveat uxor.

  59. elhaf says:

    @Marky Mark, I'm not religious, but in the words of Pope John Paul II, "if we fight the Nazis with guns, the Nazis will just arise again in a different form". And in Poland's case, the Russian communists came in and behaved almost exactly like the Nazi's had. He went on to suggest that we fight them with love and understanding, and clearly Poland is free today in no small part thanks to him.

    All this applies just as well to the Feminazis. If we use their same tactics and mindset, how do we keep from becoming them in every way, unfulfilled and bitter? What do we teach our sons and daughters?

    Do we really want to oppress women, and falsely imprison them, such as was done in Bosnia in the 90's, where women were kept in rape camps? Is turnabout fair play?

    Do even the feminists understand women any better than we do? They aren't born with some magical insight into their own natures, are they? They just wanted what seemed logical at the time – equality. They didn't know it would make everyone so unhappy.

    The reason the manosphere hasn't had more success in the mainstream is that every time an argument comes up, the bitterness spills out in droves. It's time for some diplomacy in the real world.

    Thanks, Athol. You da pope!

  60. Athol Kay says:

    OMG can we find someone else to compare me to than the pope.

  61. davidvs says:

    I would love to read more about “modern chivalry” helping married life.

    For me, acts are “chivalrous” if they are a kind effort I extend towards women but not men. As one example, if a woman is coming to my home I make sure I clean the toilets earlier that day.

    (Holding open doors is not chivalrous for me because I do that for either gender. Where I live it is still quite socially acceptable and met with polite thanks.)

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