Beta Orbiters Don’t Ever Understand “No” Unless It’s Cruelly Spoken

If the guy is romantically interested in you, and you have no interest in him, he will never fully accept you denying interest in him unless you get nasty about it.
The problem is you probably like the guy as a friend, so you try and let him down easy. So you end up being nice to him as you tell him “not interested”… and as your actions are nice, the words don’t matter and you end up unwittingly giving him a Indicator of Interest in him.
So he continues to pursue you, thinking you’re potentially interested in him and he just has to try harder.
Look I’ve been there just like everyone else has been at some point. A plain and simple “look just fuck off” stings like hell in the moment, but at least you get the message and move on looking for a new romantic possibility. But a too nice letdown can keep you hooked in to being their orbiter for months or years more.
So if you’re the guy reading this, and you absolutely do not want to be “just friends” with a woman, and she knows that, then you have to see the offer for what it really amounts to. “Let’s just have you be my Beta Orbiter”.
In the end, a harsh “no” can be kinder than a gentle one. Sometimes you’re the one that has to tell yourself the harsh “no”, and move on from the offer of LJBF. Don’t waste your time with someone that doesn’t want you like you want them.
Don’t make someone else your priority, when you are only an option to them.


  1. Anonymous says:

    Wow, what timing. I was just having a conversation about this with a friend the other day. So, what happens if the relationship was hot then dwindles into a LJBF and one runs the MAP to improve oneself? The LJBF status stays as LJBF?

  2. The Social Pathologist says:

    Sometimes you just have to be cruel to be kind.

  3. Problem: it's really awkward to have a conversation, let alone a strongly worded one, predicated on the fact that someone "likes you like that" if he hasn't come out and said it. What does one do in that situation? My sister once even tried, out of frustration, to break up with an orbiter who wouldn't take a strong hint, and his response was since they weren't dating they couldn't break up.

    More typically, though, you might just have a niggling feeling that perhaps he likes you. Even if you assume he wouldn't be hanging around if he didn't, it really comes across as egomaniacal to tell a guy who has only ever acted like a good friend of yours that he should know you're not interested in dating or sleeping with him. This is part of the dreaded FriendZone – guys know they're in it so they refuse to state their intentions, because then they can't be told to go away.

    Seriously, what's the solution here? (Luckily I'm not trying to send this message to anyone just at the moment.)

  4. I once had a MAJOR beta male friend. He was fun to talk to… very smart, pretty funny, and worked the night shift, so was always happy to chat at midnight when I couldn't sleep. I kind of figured he was trying to play it from "just friends" to "something more", but I was pretty resistant to the "something more" option and he could see that. And then one day, we were talking and out of the blue he goes – "I love you." … whaaaaaaaaat?! A week or so after that, after he had also sent me text messages trying to explain that he wasn't being creepy and blah blah blah… I finally told him that I didn't feel the same way, I was never going to feel the same way, and that I needed him to lose my number and misplace all other ways of communicating with me as well. It was hard for me to do, because I hate hurting people's feelings… but six months later… I ran into him and he had an actual girlfriend, a new job, and he was very happy, with no hard feelings against me. So in the long run… yeah… I think I saved him a lot of heartache by just laying it out there for him. Looking back, I probably should have done it sooner, to save us both the awkwardness of him professing his love!

  5. Wow, what timing. I was just having a conversation about this with a friend the other day. So, what happens if the relationship was hot then dwindles into a LJBF and one runs the MAP to improve oneself? The LJBF status stays as LJBF?

    The entire point of the MAP is to turn a LJBF marriage around to a more sexual relationship. But you can't always wait forever to do it.

    The point of the MAP is that whether she becomes interested in you again or not, it doesn't matter. Either she becomes interested in you again, or you are better poised to find a new woman in your life.

    And to be blunt, it's the ability to pull a new woman into your life that typically makes the current one think you're hot again.

  6. Seriously, what's the solution here? (Luckily I'm not trying to send this message to anyone just at the moment.)

    If he's hanging around you constantly a.k.a. "in orbit", he's interested in you. That's all you need to know. There's no words saying he's romantically interested, but his actions say he's interested.

    You just haven't grasped how truely cruel it is to keep a guy in orbit around you. He is in agony the whole time he is with you. You're like a loose tooth that needs to come out but can't.

    Have the conversation with him. Ask the question, bring it out into the open. Maybe in time again you can be friends again to some degree, but understand you're constantly hurting his feelings now.

    Once you have that conversation, finish it up with a mention of the Red Pill and Nice Guyism. Point him here and to the book.

  7. This is a corollary I think…

    If you're a guy, the way to tell which girls are interested in YOU, notice which ones put themselves in your orbit. If you try to make a date with a woman, and darn it, her calendar is just all booked up for the next 4 weeks, she isn't interested. If she likes you 'that way' she will make it very easy. That doesn't mean you can't hit on someone at the club. But don't spend very much time, if any, continuously going after the female who isn't into you. If she is into you, she will be in your orbit.

    This info would have helped me a lot back in the day (age 15-16). Now in my 30's I have the benefit of hindsight, and a handful of friends who have informed me post-facto that they were really into me, contrasted with another handful who I pursued tirelessly who just never liked me that way.

    Of course I'm happily married now so it worked out obviously. But there was a fair amount of pain involved in learning that lesson.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Friends don't let friends be beta orbiters.

    Men and women can't be friends. You are either f'ing them or trying to.

    Most women won't willingly give up beta orbiters until the beta slips into omega territory. It's natural to want your own sniveling toady.

  9. Anonymous says:

    "Most women won't willingly give up beta orbiters until the beta slips into omega territory. It's natural to want your own sniveling toady. "

    That's actually pretty offensive. Most situations that I know of (personally and not so) involve a GROUP of friends where 1 is an orbiter. A woman feels trapped by this — you run the risk of creating divisions in friendships. If she never asked for that responsibility, it's simply not fair. Sure, some women encourage beta orbiters, but the majority don't. It's uncomfortable. And when friendships unravel, we're usually the one blamed (a woman ALWAYS comes between friendships, as the saying goes).

    And this is where I disagree with Athol — it really isn't the woman's responsiblity. Sure, she can take the initiative and be proactive about it. But we've got to stop treating men like little boys. Isn't that the point of this blog? And that's where I actually agree with Anonymous 9:08 am — friends don't let friends be beta orbiters. A lot of times this whole "nice guy" routine is just that — a carefully crafted game tactic. It's not a true "nice guy", it's a sneaky way to get in through a cheat. They're taking advantage of the fact (and yes, it's a fact) that women avoid confrontation. They hope that avoidance will buy them time to chip away at her defenses and she'll come around. They never explain their desire explicitly, so they always have an escape ("what? of course I don't like you. Jeesh, where'd you get THAT idea from?" and then humiliate you in an attempt to protect their ego. Men strike back when angry and made to feel small. Women know this and avoid it like the plague!) It's not that there's a problem, per se, with "tactics". But this one is so obviously flawed. It needs to stop and only men can do it.

    My mom always taught me to not be someone's doormat, to only go where you're appreciated. Smart women!

  10. Men and women can be friends. However, "just friends" isn't friendship at all, it's merely acquaintance. True friendship is a type of love, the other three types being eros (the main focus of this blog, powered by dopamine), affection (powered by oxytocin and vasopressin), and charity.

  11. "But we've got to stop treating men like little boys. Isn't that the point of this blog?"

    Yes. Avoiding the truth and leading a guy on by not just shutting him down is treating him like a little boy who you don't want to see cry.

    Telling him in a straight forward way(no "I"m not ready for a relationship" or "Not yet." stuff) that you are not interested and he should seek love elsewhere is treating him like a man.

    Men are straight forward and mean what they say.

  12. Anonymous says:

    This is pretty good timing for me as well.

    I recently had a situation that I read completely wrong with a guy. I was telling him about some game theory when he made an off hand comment that I thought was a joke. I responded in the tone of the conversation and my perception. Turns out I pretty harshly rejected him from his point of view. When I realized that I apologize for being harsh, while making it clear I was in a relationship and not interested in him.

    However, he didn't take well and now finds ways to be passive aggressive to flat out mean to me whenever we are around each other. I figured that the candid was the way to go. But he is an orbiter to a few women and right now it seems he would rather I hadn't made it clear I wasn't going to date him. Made me the bad guy.

  13. Anonymous says:

    There is definitely more than one category here. I've been the female equivalent of an orbiter for sure (no I know, we're just friends, let me do thoughtful things for you and forgive your every flakiness, someday you'll realize how perfect I am for you!!), and possibly because of that, the instant I have any hint of a whiff that maybe a guy is interested when I'm not, I historically get really cold toward him immediately. On a few occasions, I've discovered after the fact that I was wildly wrong (at least one gay guy), but that's my natural reaction.

    However, I've also known a few girls who actively encourage it, and you know what? It always drives me batty to watch. It makes me mad at the girl and also incredibly frustrated that the guy can't see what's so obvious.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that telling girls who like orbiters how to get rid of them won't cause them to free those guys, and telling girls who don't like orbiters (a large number)… might be unnecessary. Or I don't know, maybe I just felt like sharing.

  14. If a beta orbiter asks a woman to return sex interest to him, she should give a clear negative signal. That's about as much as I'm asking women to do.

    It's up to the guys to figure out the rest of it for themselves.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Guys, there's a foolproof way to resolve the situation immediately: Make A Move. If she's into it, you win! If she isn't, you are wasting your time, move on. I believe it's called She's Just Not That Into You. You don't have to wait for her to decide to put you out of your misery.

    So yeah – what Athol just said.

  16. The MacNut says:

    Ah, but the guys (and gals) doing the Orbiter strategy don't WANT to be outright rejected, which is why they remain in Orbit and don't try moving in for the kill, so to speak. Yeah this puts the ones being orbited in a difficult position…but the orbiters are so afraid of rejection they don't stop to consider the other person's feelings on the matter.

  17. Ian Ironwood says:

    I got into someone's orbit, once, back in the Blue Pill days. I did all sorts of things for her, treated her nicely, waited patiently while she ended a relationship, undertook a lot of responsibilities for her. And then, at a critical moment, I made my Move. She was shocked. She was offended. She rejected me good and hard, told me that we would only be friends at best, that "I wasn't her type." She was kind of brutal about it, as if the very idea of me dating "out of my class" was ludicrous.

    So I walked away. I quit calling her. I found distraction. I quit answering her calls. I got angry with her, then objectified her, and I completely severed any ties with her. Since we had a common group of friends (we were undergraduates) the group ended up shattering when I quit attending functions, and our friends wanted to know why. She blamed me for getting mad, blamed me for upsetting the group and starting a fight with her friends, and blamed me that I wouldn't "just be friends" and keep coming to her study group.

    And you know what? I survived. Not only survived, it was the first real taste of "red pill" I'd ever had. I felt powerful, if wounded, and even though I was angry at her, I was able to turn it into something much more productive.

    And do you know what else? Without my help she couldn't complete two key papers she needed to graduate, she failed, and she flunked out of school. According to mutual friends she's now divorced and hideously fat in Seattle, her life having taken some unfortunate turns since she failed out of college.

    Was it her "fault" that I liked her and she didn't like me back? Perhaps not. Nor was it mine. Was it her "fault" that she flirted with me in the first place to get my help in a class she was struggling with, knowing she wasn't interested in me? Perhaps not. Nor was it mine. Was it my "fault" that I withheld assistance she was counting on to not fail out of a $40,000 a year private university, because I was embittered over her rejection? Perhaps not. I could have gone over at the eleventh hour, helped her out, gotten her through her crisis and got her to graduate, but honestly once she rejected me, I didn't see that as a compelling course of action.

    Several lessons were learned, among them: don't flirt with a nerd unless you mean it, ladies.

  18. The MacNut says:

    Ian, at least you made a move. You managed to get yourself out of FriendZone purgatory, even if it wasn't the end result you wanted. Better than sitting in that purgatory forever watching her hook up with other guys until finally one of them insists she ditch you-and she does. Or she gets tired of you and ditches you herself. Either way, this wasn't destined to last.

    As for how she ended up, consider that Karma at work.

  19. Beta orbiting is very passive-aggressive to begin with, so it's no surprise that the beta becomes moreso when challenged. It is their response to conflict. They want to avoid the conflict inherent in rejection, too, so they just keep on hopin'. I learned at a young age that hope can be painful, and losing hope can be good. When you hit rock bottom, you bounce.

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