Divergent Sex Rank and Relationship Destabilization After Going Paleo

Go have a read of this When Good Health Destroys A Perfectly Decent Marriage with an eye for Sex Rank changes and the destabilization of the relationship after a wife goes Paleo and gets significantly healthier and sexier.
Some snippets…
“You pity him. He’s still fat, still depressed, still lazy, still forgetful, still hungry all the time, still impulsive, still smelly, and you? You haven’t looked and felt this great since high school.”
“He drank, he smoked, he still took head ache medicine, he didn’t care about exercising, etc. Our paths diverged right then and there. A few months later I was pregnant and so breaking up wasn’t  much of an option. He wasn’t a bad guy, and so I stayed to see if I could make things work.”
“It is sad to uproot children from the two people they love the most — we should try at all costs to avoid it —  but it is also sad to show children loveless, hateful, abusive, or lifeless relationships. Breaking off a marriage is a big deal for everyone involved but staying in one that isn’t working can be just as big of a deal.”
Sex Rank changes are brutally effective in causing changes in a relationship. The MAP works as advertised, your spouse will either get better and you’ll get more of what you want from them… or you’ll be better prepared to attracted a partner that will give you what you want.
Also it’s interesting to note how the Rationalization Hamster works in these situations. After a marked increase in her Sex Rank, she logically wants to leave the relationship because she’s hotter than him, but her hamster gets her pregnant and she talks herself into staying with him. After a while though, the hamster changes it’s mind and it talks her out of the relationship. He just takes too long to make the change.
And for the really dark thought… the turning point where she suddenly becomes interest in “living healthy” a.k.a. getting way hotter, comes in the aftermath of her husband being unable to defend her against an intruder in the house. It’s a marked negative factor in your relationship after you fail in a physical defense of your wife. To be sure the husband was clearly outgunned from the beginning, and it is by no means a reasonable expectation that an unarmed regular guy can best a gruesome thug with weapons and the element of surprise, but try explain that to ancient female biological wiring.
So sad.

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Comments

  1. IndyGuy77 says:

    More disturbing than liberating or inspirational. But I'm tend to think of marriage like the Foo Fighters song "DOA"… "no one's getting out of here, alive, this time".

  2. hans says:

    No, the actually sad part is that our society actively encourages this destructive female behavior. I mean the divorcing & rationalization hamstering NOT the staying slim part.

    I bet the guy wasn´t a star athlete when she met him either, but now it´s ALL his fault and he even gets the bill for it.
    Oh yeah and his heart ripped out with the mandatory female custody.

    Also women deluding themselves about their sex rank is all too common, especially when they have kids running around the ankles.

    When it comes to marriage I personally am more partial to the message of the old "War Games" flic. :P

  3. Peggy the Primal Parent says:

    It's too bad that you turned this into a sex rank scenario. My husband was not fat, he was not ugly, and I was not "way hotter than him."

    You fail to recognize that getting healthy is about way more than looks. I too was never overweight or ugly. Getting healthy wasn't about looking hot for me.

    I had mental problems. He had mental problems. Changing my diet made me normal and happy. We had a horrible relationship that I was too muddy headed to do anything about before. Lifting the fog off of my brain changed everything.

    Believe it or not, all women are not superficial bitches.

  4. Trimegistus says:

    It's an interesting and revealing piece, although there's a whiff of crackpot obsessiveness about the diet which suggests other factors at work. I went on a diet a couple of years ago to lose some weight. I didn't try to transform my household or my family, I just changed what and how much I ate. When one person's diet becomes The Most Important Thing In Our Lives, there's problems in the relationship deeper than sex rank.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Substitute going paleo for becoming born again or whatever and it's very easy to see the author regards going paleo as a spiritual awakening.

    Such empty people looking for things to fill them up. Then everyone who doesn't tow the line with their new found wisdom and knowledge has to be cast out because they might have the audacity to call BS on the crazy.

  6. Anonymous says:

    I read the story about the intruder. Sorry that happened to them. I fail to see how her husband failed that. He got ambushed by an armed attacker. Once he recovered from the initial assault he fought the intruder off. No one died. No one got raped. No one got kidnapped.

    Failing that challenge would have been if he would have run, or cried like a bitch and begged for mercy. He didn't. He fought. He did better than a lot of 'normal' guys would.

    Criminals do not engage in fights. They engage in ambush. They do not want to fight because in fighting there is a danger that they themselves will be injured.

    They have learned over a lifetime on the streets that those that continue to live, do so by cunning, ambush and the immediate application of overwhelming violence. Fighting is what happens in bars with drunk guys. Criminals ambush. They know that fighting does not achieve their objective and it is dangerous to themselves.

    If you wish to learn more about the reality of criminal violence, and not what you see on TV, I recommend the following:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

    Athol, you will like this a lot. Here is a street perspective of Alpha – Beta.

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/alphabehavior.htm

    Criminal violence is not what many think it is, nor are the solutions and responses to it.

  7. J says:

    I don't get it Peggy. Was your relationship horrible, as you claim when confronted with the sex rank angle, or perfectly decent, as your blog calls it?

    Again we see the female pattern of manipulating the background scenery this way and that to make their actions and decisions look the best to others in retrospect. With each inconsistency, a red pill man is going to see it and start trusting the account less. I'm not annoyed, I've been watching these patterns for a long time and have learned to expect it. What women say about why they choose a man or choose to leave him, cannot be taken at face value.

  8. Cal says:

    >>>"It's too bad that you turned this into a sex rank scenario. My husband was not fat, he was not ugly, and I was not "way hotter than him.""

    Your marriage difficulties are very unfortunate. As Athol has said here quite a few times, once a person starts to understand how and why marriages work, it becomes very sad to see them fail.

    I am only beginning to put these principles into practice, but when I look back on all of the mistakes I made in my marriage, which nearly ended it, out of sheer ignorance and misunderstanding, I am filled with regret. I can assure you that Athol's aim is to save marriages, not to cast blame.

    One of the most enlightening concepts that he has taught me is that Sex Rank is not a "scenario" or an interpretation. It's an observation about the nature of mammalian social organization. It has no moral component to it. It's the way we are.

    People are animals, biologically. We have impulses and urges and biological needs. Our psychologies are part of that. Emotions are very complex, but they are designed by millions of years of evolution to help us, to provide us important information. They are designed to help us interpret reality. When we feel bad, the feelings exist to tell us that something is wrong. When we are attracted to someone and happy with him/her, it is for a specific set of reasons. When attraction turns to revulsion, it's for a reason.

    But humans are clever animals. In the last couple of thousand years (a mere blink), we have developed an intricate moral framework, and we constantly try to apply it to our biological realities. We try to interpret everything we do through this moral lens.

    But biology is not about being moral or immoral. It's about surviving and reproducing and protecting our young.

    You said in your article: "He’s still fat, still depressed, still lazy, still forgetful, still hungry all the time, still impulsive, still smelly."

    That's a low Sex Rank. Especially for a man, whose Sex Rank is defined by being fit, energetic, capable, and in control of his life. That's what "power" is. It's the power to control one's environment. Women find male power attractive, the same way that men find female beauty and good humor attractive, which are indicators of (a) her fertility and (b) her ability to raise successful children.

    When you are fit and attractive, and your husband is fat, lazy and smells bad, that's not a "perfectly decent" marriage. That's a crappy marriage. No amount of rationalization is going to change that basic reality.

    But men need things from their mates other than being a moist fuck-hole with firm tits. Men need appreciation. They need encouragement. They need admiration and respect. When a woman gives these things to a man, he works harder for her and thrives. When a woman withholds them to get what she wants, he shuts down, becomes depressed and lazy. It's counter-intuitive, but true.

  9. Polly says:

    Cal says: "Men need appreciation. They need encouragement. They need admiration and respect. When a woman gives these things to a man, he works harder for her and thrives. When a woman withholds them to get what she wants, he shuts down, becomes depressed and lazy. It's counter-intuitive, but true."

    This sounds right, makes sense, jives with experience but how in the world is a wife to do this without sounding completely fake? I mean, you've quietly waited for years for him to replace the damn doorknob and he finally gets out the toolbox and does it and he seems to expect cooing and batting of eyelashes as a reward for his amazing thoughtfulness. I know I am shooting myself in the foot by ignoring these things when they do happen. Maybe if I did more billing and cooing, the house would not be falling down around us. How do I praise and admire without looking/feeling like an idiot? I know this sounds bitchy and maybe I am a bitch but a bitch with a real question. (I am not a nag, though. I don't ask him to do anything.)

  10. (r)Evoluzione says:

    Peggy's post is not sad, unless you pity her ex-husband, which is an egotistical and self-important viewpoint. Athol, your post was overall very good, but at the end, you throw in the "so sad" judgement, which is short-sighted, to say the least.

    I would counter that the events that took place are a biological imperative. Peggy states that in his unhealthy state, he's "smelly," indicating she did not find his scent attractive, and thus was not biologically attracted to him. This is a relationship doomed to failure. Later on, she states that in more explicit ways. She's lost the tingle, and once it's gone beyond a certain threshold, it's a done deal.

    The situation would be more sad for two people to remain in a bad relationship– that's nothing more than a game of charades, where no love, no attraction, and few shared interests exist.

    Not every marriage is destined to run for 50 years. Not every couple is compatible in the long run. MMSL seems to be about maximizing love, attraction, and fun in a marriage. At some point, when chemistry is lost beyond the threshold of salvage, simple behavioral economics tells us it's better to cut one's losses and move on.

    In truth, more harm would come from a woman sticking it out in a bad marriage for another 5-10 years, all while her SMV falls, only to break up in her 40's when the chances of remarriage are low, when she's "wasted all the pretty."

    The epitome of being caught in the sunken cost fallacy is demonstrated when people maintain a bad relationship in the face of overwhelming evidence that the relationship should go.

    Her ex-husband probably got a major gut-check from this whole thing, and yeah, that's hard. I've fucking been there, man, and I won't go back there in this life. Because I learned from it.

    The man in question here needs to show up in life, and if he does so, there's significant benefits. If he'd have got his shit together, he'd still be enjoying a hot, healthy wife and a great life. But he didn't. He can still benefit from the situation.
    If he gets his act together, gets healthy, and develops a better attitude, he could improve his SMV enought to date younger, hotter, tighter women and likely be happier for it.

    Bottom line: Improve SMV's all around, shake up the mix, and everyone wins.

    In sum, for men: it's lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way. For married men, if you're not leading, you may be accused of dereliction of your duty as a man to maximize your studliness. If your wife is getting hotter, and you are stagnant, you best at least follow, and maintain SMV parity. Divorce is the legal way of forcing a guy to get out of the way when he's refused to lead or at least follow.

    You missed a "teachable moment" by focusing on the 'defects' of the ancient female wiring. In truth, it's a feature, not a bug, and men need to understand both what we're dealing with in the hamster's behavior patterns, and our own role in life and in this culture.

  11. Cal says:

    >>>"This sounds right, makes sense, jives with experience but how in the world is a wife to do this without sounding completely fake? I mean, you've quietly waited for years for him to replace the damn doorknob and he finally gets out the toolbox and does it and he seems to expect cooing and batting of eyelashes as a reward for his amazing thoughtfulness. I know I am shooting myself in the foot by ignoring these things when they do happen. Maybe if I did more billing and cooing, the house would not be falling down around us. How do I praise and admire without looking/feeling like an idiot? I know this sounds bitchy and maybe I am a bitch but a bitch with a real question. (I am not a nag, though. I don't ask him to do anything.)"

    What does it really cost you to give him what you think he wants? What do you have to lose? If your status quo behavior patters aren't working, why not try something different?

    What strikes me about your post is that you think that a little praise, respect, acknowledgement and admiration is no different than cooing and batting your eyelashes. You seem to have a very black-and-white way of looking at it.

    I'm not seeing any sense of moderation or degree in your approach. You seem to feel that there are only two options on the menu, either stony silence or doormat gushing.

    I'm also getting the sense that you are deliberately withholding emotional support as a way of getting what you want.

    I can tell you that this NEVER works. You have to give and give. And if you don't get what you want and need, the solution is not to withhold to get it. That's what you do with others, with business dealings, not spouses.

    With spouses, the best route is to make yourself as desirable as possible, tell him explicitly what you need, and if you go too long without getting it (after giving everything on your side), leave him.

    You will NOT get it by withholding. You will not get it by emotional blackmail, or holding your love, sex, affection and respect hostage.

    Have you tried a more moderate approach? Thanking him sincerely and affectionately?

    The key is to do this with your actions and not just words. If he fixes a doorknob, cook a special meal that he likes, or give a spontaneous blowjob that evening. You don't have to make a big deal out of it. Just a gesture of appreciation. The key is to do it immediately, then move on.

    Also, do you give praise, respect and appreciation for ordinary things, like going to work? Do not get into the habit of taking these things for granted. Don't get into the habit of thinking that your man does not deserve praise unless he does something extraordinary, that he has to go above and beyond before he'll get some basic fun, flirty kindness from his wife.

    Try giving these things for 3 months. Then, when you ask for things, you'll probably see that he's far more motivated to please you.

  12. Polly says:

    Cal, thank you for your thoughtful response. I am certainly going to think about what you said, especially regarding not having to be "gushy" to express appreciation. I do not have leaving or divorce in mind at all. My marriage is quite stable but he and I are both frustrated that we can not seem to understand what the other wants and neither of us is getting what we want. For the most part, I am trying to accept that it is just the way things are but sometimes the "bitch-y" does come out so thanks for answering as respectfully as you did.

  13. Looking Glass says:

    @ Polly:

    Buy Athol's book. And/or we can suggest places to read about the way the sexes operate.

    But a fairly basic point:

    - You get more of what you encourage
    - You get less of what you discourage

    If you want to know the "encourage" bit, have both of you work through the questions here: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/ Then you know what each other might respond to. (For the door knob instance, saying "thanks" might not mean anything but kissing him on the cheek might work wonderfully for him. Don't assume we all respond the same way)

    Since you probably have kids, you probably don't "encourage" your kids by making them clean the room. You praise them for having done the cleaning. Depending on what they do, you scale the praise. I.e. getting Straight As is more praised than cleaning out the dishwasher. You get some "thanks" but major praise for doing something special. It's a continuum of effect, which seems to be a problem for a whole lot of people.

    Also, you have to look at how your were raised and what type of social setting you exist in. It's very likely a lot of the black/white distinction is a learned trait that you'll need to "unlearn" a bit.

  14. Anonymous says:

    Cal…"Also, do you give praise, respect and appreciation for ordinary things, like going to work?"

    I think women rarely think of a man's going to work as something they need to appreciate, because it's always there. (A dog trainer once said a dog will only connect his food with his master if you bring the dish out at feeding time and take it away when he's done, rather than leaving it our for him to snack on all the time.) Further, there's been so much propaganda about how men are "privileged" in their careers that women are likely to think of him going off to work as great excitement that she's missing out on, rather than something he's contributing. (Women who've pursued serious careers on their own are probably less likely to think this way)

    Men also can ignore the "background" contributions of their wives, like housekeeping, but I don't think this is as commmon because the propaganda mills are so one-sided.

  15. Gwen says:

    Polly – "gushing" would be kind of like treating your husband like a rather stupid child, in my opinion. But there's a big difference between gushing and honest appreciation. Your husband does a lot more than just fix doorknobs, right? I'm sure he has a lot of qualities that you admire and respect about him.

    I find that it is helpful to my attitude to make a point of reminding myself on a regular basis of all the qualities my husband has that I like/love/admire in him. As I see it, my emotions and my responses are my responsibility. My husband has many good and bad qualities. I have a choice – I can focus on the things about him that annoy me, or I can focus on the things about him that make me happy to be married to him. Choosing to focus on his good points makes me a happier person – I find it easier to be loving and positive with him – he is happier to be with me – our marriage is better and stronger and our kids have a stable and safe life. Everybody wins, and all I have to do is recognize that I can control my attitude and behavior.

    Try making a list of all the things you love about your husband. Think them over, and let yourself wallow in the good feelings and memories that are associated with those qualities. Then just go with your feelings. I think of it as being like a wave, and when my feelings hit their crest I find it very easy to drop a compliment or thank him for the things he does. And then things get into a nice positive feedback loop with him being all happy and loving, and then I'm happier, and then our marriage is healthier and the kids … You get the picture.

    Oh, and go ahead and ask him to fix things for you. He can't read your mind. Let him know you need his help in those things. It gives him a chance to do something for you that you can't do for yourself and that's a relationship strengthener too. But, if asking him is just going to lead to frustration, because he'll put it off until he forgets about it, then do it yourself and forget about it. You don't have any control over what he does; you only control your own actions. Keeping silent and stewing over it is only going to lead to digging a big hole for you to fall into and get stuck in. There's no way it can lead to a positive outcome.

  16. Looking Glass says:

    @Peggy:

    No, your story should be read as a SMV & Zealotry issue.

    The SMV part is really straight forward, given the Time Line:

    - You go Paleo.
    - Husband doesn't (though he was still eating that way, just drinking & smoking)
    - Sexual relationship is barely there
    - Thinking of leaving, then get pregnant
    - Husband completes album, going to start a band (so large Alpha increase, which also probably explains the pregnant part, given the 15 month lag time between conception and the album completion)
    - Violent attack, so lower SMV for husband
    - Eventual end of the relationship

    It makes sense from the SMV construction, along with a long time frame for a limited emotional relationship. Add in a certain level of Paleo zealotry and you have a nice mix of "bored wife syndrome".

    Your story reads like a textbook SMV change + "going my own way" frivolous divorce case. Don't be surprised if most around these parts aren't impressed. :)

    But, congrats on getting the Celiac disease under control. That can be a really rough one to find.

  17. Anonymous says:

    @(r)Evoluzione
    "Divorce is the legal way of forcing a guy to get out of the way when he's refused to lead or at least follow."

    Too bad its only that useful for women, right? As we men are completely disadvantaged by the whole process of divorce.

  18. elhaf says:

    @Peggy hot for women is different from hot for men. Mental problems < no mental problems, in either case. However you want to wrap it up, you developed a higher SMV than you had, and than he could support with his actions (not his looks – those don't matter as much).

    @Athol here's her comment on that pimp story:
    Peggy:"Another interesting read would probably be the whole thing from my ex-husband’s perspective. … all he could think of was what was the right move to make to protect his wife.

    The guy was holding a gun the whole time and my ex feared that I would be shot. He feared that if he moved off of that floor that I would be killed and maybe he would be killed too. But as he watched that man killing me with his hands, he said fuck the gun. And he went for him anyway. What a decision that must have been to make."

    @Cal – excellent advice. Gwen is doing it right. It's all about the positive feedback loop. I try to keep that in mind every day, and I see my wife do it too. It's such a lower stress way to deal with relationships than manipulation (withholding). Your part is to give. If they don't clue up and reciprocate, hit the door. And work all this out before the marriage.

  19. Athol Kay says:

    It's too bad that you turned this into a sex rank scenario. My husband was not fat, he was not ugly, and I was not "way hotter than him."

    Peggy you said… "You pity him. He’s still fat, still depressed, still lazy, still forgetful, still hungry all the time, still impulsive, still smelly, and you? You haven’t looked and felt this great since high school."

    So you are doing a 180 on your own story.

    You fail to recognize that getting healthy is about way more than looks. I too was never overweight or ugly. Getting healthy wasn't about looking hot for me.

    I've long made the case that the essence of physical attractiveness is good physical health. Healthy is sexy. You know this. You're implying I'm making a value judgment about you, when it's simply a blindingly obvious observation.

    I had mental problems. He had mental problems. Changing my diet made me normal and happy. We had a horrible relationship that I was too muddy headed to do anything about before. Lifting the fog off of my brain changed everything.

    Peggy you titled your post "When Good Health Destroys A Perfectly Decent Marriage", so you are again doing a 180 on your story. Which is it, a perfectly decent marriage or a horrible relationship.

    Believe it or not, all women are not superficial bitches.

    I don't believe I called you any such thing. In fact I get fairly routinely trolled for defending the claim that women aren't superifical bitches.

    I linked to your post because I felt it perfectly showed something that is a central theme at MMSL. That when one half of a couple takes charge of their life and changes themself for the better, that their partner will need to either change for the better too, or the relationship will become increasingly stressed and possibly fail.

    What you did in your marriage is very close to the advice I give here. I was in no small part applauding your actions. It is very sad to see a marriage fail, but when things do go that way it can be very predictable.

    I write MMSL for men who are potentially in exactly the same situation as your husband was before the divorce. It's my hope that they would learn from this post, and their marriage would be saved.

    My one error in the post was misreading the incident of the attack on you and your ex-husband. I thought he had been shot and was basically down and out and then the police came. I missed the part where he charged the guy completely. Top marks for heroism, and my apologies to him for missing that.

  20. Athol Kay says:

    (r)Evoluzione said…
    Peggy's post is not sad, unless you pity her ex-husband, which is an egotistical and self-important viewpoint. Athol, your post was overall very good, but at the end, you throw in the "so sad" judgement, which is short-sighted, to say the least.

    I'm always upset to learn about a failed marriage, no matter the reason. When I stop caring about the failures, I should probably just stop the blog and go do something else.

  21. (r)Evoluzione says:

    Good call, Athol, and thanks. Your reply to Peggy above clears up a lot of the concerns I had.

    Keep up the great work. May more men find you here & get with the program.

  22. Athol Kay says:

    Thanks.

  23. Anonymous says:

    "Your story reads like a textbook SMV change + "going my own way" frivolous divorce case. "

    No kidding… dude fought off an intruder to save her life, yet was that enough to keep her around? Nope. The hamster is strong with this one.

  24. Trimegistus says:

    I expect we'll see Mr. Peggy as another heavily embittered commenter at the Spearhead soon.

  25. Standup Guy says:

    There is a heavy sadness everytime there's news of a failed marriage. I'm not a moralist about it. I Just feel the pain they are going thru.

    I can't blame Peggy for all of this. If I were in Mr. Peggy's shows and I wanted to still be married to Peggy, I would have been much more assertive in getting my personal health under control.

    It's very basic. If I refuse to get in good enough shape to provide sex for my wife. Somebody else will.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Athol is completely correct in his view.

    "Sex rank" does not just mean physical; assertiveness, confidence, courage, or any number of other social/mental attributes are going to contribute to it.

    She made herself better. She asked the husband to step up. She tried to get him to step up. Her view of life changed, and his did not. I'm a male, and an avid advocate of male rights, but this is not a case of a female "ditching her husband," nor should the writer of this piece think that was Athol's intent.

    She made a valid effort to improve her life, health, mental state, and her future. Her husband did not want to do that, even after a long period of time. It's unfortunate that it happened. It doesn't make her a bad person, it just means they changed.

    If anyone argues for the value of marriage, and to stick it out, I think Athol does it pretty damn well.

  27. mike says:

    I don't know if enough women, Peggy included, actaully read their men the "riot act" in a way we can understand.

    It's been my experince with friends and myself that have gone through this, that verbally they never got the " Fred, we need to resolve this issue now before it drives me away" speech. We men,blockheads that we are need that direct message to "Get It".

    Little is actaully said by women, they act out, by withholding sex, being grumpy etc. When asked " what's wrong?" they say "Nothing", hubby thinks "Ok PMS" and goes back to watching the game. The wife lets what ever the issue it is fester for months or years, rewrites the entire marriage history. For example, "He works so hard to buy us nice things" changes to " He's never home and neglects me" as an excuse to have an affair.

    Either Men have to find a way to clue into this kind of thing or Women have to be more direct in their complaints.

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