Are Women Are Evil Crazy Bitches Out To Get Us?

There was a comment on “When Her Anger Is Just A Tactic” that I think needs a full answer. At some point in reading Manosphere blogs pretty much everyone has asked this same question
Anon:  Tell me again why I should bother with women or marriage? Remind me why I should morally and legally dedicate myself to a life of psychological head games, emotional manipulation, and sharing a house with a spoiled, selfish, immature child who subconsciously expects me to be her Daddy (and that’s assuming she’s one of the “good ones”!)? On top of that, if I don’t deliver my “Game” just right, sweetheart gets bored and “falls out of love with me”, witholds sex, has an affair, and then proceeds to crush my life into little pieces via our wonderful legal system. Riiiiiight. Maybe I’m missing something but what exactly do *I* get out of this deal again? All I see are men being required to cater their behavior to suit the emotional whims of women while trying to convince themselves they’re really clever for doing so. Why aren’t women required to just grow the Hell up, take responsibility for their behavior, and quit acting like selfish, bratty children and learn to get along with men? Or is that just too much to ask?
I’ll be honest guys – Game just makes me hate women.
Athol: You already know exactly what you get from a good marriage, you want it, but you just don’t know it is possible for you to achieve. Then it’s a small step to jump to saying you hate women and don’t want to be in a relationship with one. This is the sour grapes response.
Women are the way they are with men, because they historically have taken enormous risks in having sex with a man. We’re so used to modern medicine saving women and babies via Caesarean Section that we don’t really think consciously about the risks of pregnancy anymore. In addition to that, women expend enormous resources being pregnant, and are committed to spending them far into the future with having a child.
As a result women are hypergamous and seek the highest quality mates they can find. Which is, you must admit, a pretty reasonable strategy to pursue on the whole. Women aren’t illogical, they are following a rational strategy. They aren’t random, they have a predictable pattern of interaction with men they are interested in.
It’s a little like playing Pac-Man. At first the ghosts just chase you down and trap you, but after a while you get better at avoiding them and get a better score. However “back in the day”, top level players simply worked out the programming of the ghosts and would run set patterns for screen after screen of Pac-Man. Essentially the game could be beaten and the game actually bugs on the 256th screen and can’t be passed.
The purpose of Game is to figure out those patterns of action women take and then preempt them by running our own patterns of behavior. This all sounds manipulative on the part of Gamers, and that’s because it is manipulative. But when the end goal is you get what you want from your wife because she’s happy and excited to be in a relationship with you, most women don’t actually care that they are being played.
Even the simple things like understanding how ovulation drives female sexual behavior is a huge revelation to most men. Before you know about it, women seem terribly random and confusing. After you know about it, you can mark off nights for rough sex in your day planner for months ahead.
The other half of the problem making women seem confusing to men, is that they have a strategy of misdirection. Ovulation isn’t just ovulation, it’s concealed ovulation. Just like when a magician doing a trick wants you to pay attention to their right hand, they wave it dramatically to draw your eye to it, meanwhile their left hand does something sneaky. It’s extremely difficult to fool other magicians though because they know the magic game so well. The kicker is that most women don’t even know they are misdirecting and can be fooled by their own emotions bouncing around as their man is. You don’t think they are really that angry about the way things are stacked in the dishwasher do you?
Once you get good at this stuff, it’s almost amusing how easy it is to predict how your wife will react to you doing different things. If I absolutely pound the crap out of Jennifer in bed, 99% of the time the next day she’s cuddly and clingy. Then I lightly tease her about it because that makes her make her pouty face and snuggle into me even more. Cause and effect my love.
And yes half of what I talk about on MMSL is basic behavior tactics. If your wife is behaving like a spoiled brat, that’s because in no small part you’re allowing her to act that way in the relationship. Women tend to be responsive to men in sexual relationships, so if she’s being a bitch, look to your own behavior first and see if you are part of the problem by enabling that bitchiness… if only by your toleration of staying in a relationship with a bitch.
Importantly, this is ancient programming, and simply isn’t going to change any time soon. So learn it, or don’t learn it, but there’s no way to unknow what you already know. So you may as well push through the hump and master Game rather than stop halfway into the process.
It is very important to make a good choice in a wife, but after that, it’s really not all that difficult to keep a basically good woman happy and content being your wife by paying attention to the basics of Game. It just requires effort.
 

Comments

  1. David Collard says:

    What you say about women not being self-aware in this area sounds plausible. It would be a good example of adaptive self-deception, a concept in evolutionary psychology.

  2. Keep in mind that women have to stay on their toes also. Men can stray and be bad partners too. Both parties in a relationship have to always be making active effort. That's just how it is.

    (Same with friendships too, although friendships can be less volatile because they require less vulnerability.)

  3. Game works to a certian extent but marriage is still a huge risk and Game is no garauntee against the divorce court system that absolutely pounds the crap out of men.

  4. Athol, be honest: the whole point of what you write IS head games and manipulation, isn't it?

    "What do I have to appear to be to keep her thinking the way I want, in order to get her to do what I want, whilst ensuring she's never too comfortable or secure, but secure enough…"

  5. Does it matter? Really, does it matter so much? If the end result is a happy couple who the hell cares?

    I'd call it "acknowledging reality" or to use an anology, "stop fighting the tide".

  6. pdwalker – it's like being "happy" in a job where you are constantly fighting to stay where you are, and where the first mistake can be your last. It might be exhilirating for a while, but gradually it just becomes physically, mentally and emotionally draining

  7. Men have been getting happily married to women for 100s of years.

    Sometimes it's best just not to over think it and read all these blogs.

    The only time a man should think really really hard is when he meets a woman…then he should analyze every aspect of her character.

    Most men I know never ask their gfs/future wives any questions regarding values, drugs (antidepressants), etc etc

    That's when you run into problems.

  8. Joshua Zader says:

    If a picture is worth a thousand words, how much is a 6-minute short worth?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-_1s_U0mc

    Explores a meaningful MMSL theme.

  9. I also think that game has evolved as Political Correctness has caused our relationships to become shallow.

    I consider myself somewhat "well defined" (or bitchy hehe) in my attitudes, religion, political beliefs, view of the world.

    As a result, I like/respect guys who have those same beliefs and there are hardly any problems because our world outlook and goals match up.

    BUT….say you were not well-defined…but just a MTV watching, beer drinking, bar hopping run of the mill dude and dudette.

    Then Game would be very necessary to keep your relationship alive as you've been reduced to the base human desires as you are no longer constrained by religion, politics, or some higher intellectual belief or goal in your life. You just exist and are at the whims of evolutionary nature.

    (I sound like such a snoot right now..sorry for that!)

    So for those people Game is their intellectual ideology to help them form relationships.

    I'm not saying that Game isn't important for me too (why do I read these blogs) but it's more like "Cool Stuff to help the relationship be better" instead of "this is what you need to be in a successful relationship"

  10. Anon, if that is how your relationship feels to you, then you are right – there is no sense in being in it.

    With Athols advice, I've gone from a deeply troubled and unhappy relationship that was on a short walk to being over to, well just like it was in our first year together. Our fights? Waaaaay down.

    Draining was what the relationship had become, constantly walking on egg shells to avoid the latest blowup, while sufffering in anger and silence over other aspects. Now? Well, it's not perfect yet, but it's far healthier and far less stressful which is a thousand times better than it was.

    So, all that from small changes in behavior. It's no effort at all. (check back in a year for the real proof)

    As for your work analogy, while I understand the sentiment, I've never experienced it. I love what I do and enjoy doing it. Always have. If I didn't enjoy my work, i'd find work I did enjoy.

    You are in control of your own life. Make of it what you will.

  11. placating women is what got us into this matriarchal mess in the first place, and Running Game, contrary to salvific claims, is just more placation and submission to female-drama crapola

  12. "Women tend to be responsive to men in sexual relationships, so if she's being a bitch, look to your own behavior first and see if you are part of the problem by enabling that bitchiness… if only by your toleration of staying in a relationship with a bitch."

    First let me draw some generalities:

    …..you teach people how to treat you and get what you expect or believe you are worth.

    …..you unintentionally or intentionally reinforce certain behaviours – then wonder why people or animals behave as they do.

    …..you fail to set and defend your boundaries and then wonder why other people behave like oafs and exploit you.

    …..you fail to call people out on their self destructive behaviour and they deteriorate in front of your eyes.

    …..you fail to take into account personality and special needs and you don't get the best out of someone.

    Women are not special, they are humans. Men and children also run wild and become toxic if they are not managed appropriately.

    It's stressful changing one's way of interacting with other people, but as long as you are true to your own nature, you eventually have the required power base, self respect and relexive people skills to deal with bad behaviour without to much drama and you can relax.

    Good people skills help in all parts of our life. A lot of what Athol says applies to all people (and animals), some of it is special to male – female relationships in our culture and some is special to Athol. HOWEVER, its all interesting and good.

  13. That's all nice and everything, Athol, but it seems you didn't actually answer Anon's question, which was: why should he sign up for Marriage 2.0? He wasn't asking "why women behave the way they do".

    Höllenhund

  14. @ray

    true, you could call game placation, but game allows men to hold women accountable using a womans biology

    A big difference ….

    Women, dont understand concepts such as justice, honor, logic & reason, you have to hold women accountable using a womans biology

    BUT saying the above … I'll just re-iterate my last post on athol's blog, which is a credit to the manoshpere …

    Even tho it is too pro-relationship for alot of guys who're familiar with how chicks work …

    Women NEVER stop testing men & they never stop trying to emasculate men

    As athol points out in his other posts, this is part of their biology …

    So if you want to marry a chick .. suck it up, be a man, this is what you're basically in for, for life …

    This is the reality …

    A life time of shit tests, & daily attempts at petty emasculation, along with a hundred & one other things … lol

  15. Demonspawn says:

    If yer married, learn game and improve your marriage. MMSL is great for that.

    If yer in a LTR, learn game and improve your LTR. MMSL is great for that.

    If yer single, learn game and get and good relationship. MMSL is good for it, but you need a bit more help for intros.

    If yer not yet married, DON'T GET MARRIED. It comes down to a simple question: what's in it for you?

    If you want kids, if you want marriage, go to a country where marriage 1.0 still exists and get married there. The big question is if the person "defending marriage" passes the expat test

  16. Ian Ironwood says:

    A couple of observations . . .

    First, I can't help but notice a clear difference between those who question Game's tactics and effectiveness and those who laud it. Those who see Game as manipulative (in a bad way) or as an unnecessary capitulation to feminine whim are viewing this issue through an idealistic lens. And Ideals, which are great and noble things to have a pocket full of, often don't work when applied to the real world. Your ideals create a false expectation of behavior from others who do not necessarily share your ideals or even understand them properly. Therefore when you get involved in a relationship with a woman who doesn't perfectly fit your ideal vision of the Way Things Should Be, you fault the woman, not the process.

    The proponents of Game tend to be viewing things a lot more pragmatically. Instead of an Ideal that's impossible to live up to — that is, having a wife that behaves, reasons, and emotes more-or-less like a man who just happens to have a vagina — is highly unrealistic and leads to inevitable disappointment and conflict. Once you decide that ideals are great in theory but you have to work with the situation as presented, and actually study the pragmatic factors in your marriage, then properly understood Game becomes a powerful and meaningful Relationship Technology.

    I suppose it all depends on what is most important to you: raising your unassailable ideals to a level where they sabotage your relationship, or accepting the reality of the situation and handling your business so that you can have the happiest marriage possible. I live in a University town and they grow idealists on trees around here. And I've noticed that over the years the ones who cling to those ideals lead very lonely lives. I suppose it all depends upon what is important to you.

    As to Why To Get Married: If in doubt, don't. Seriously. If you don't think you can swing it, and handle the children it produces, then by all means grab yourself a vasectomy and be a Playa, or submerge yourself in WoW for the rest of your natural life . . . because if you aren't having adding yet more kids from a dysfunctional family to our society, then my kids get more resources and will have to compete less in the future. So if you're self-selecting out of the human gene pool, on behalf of me and my children, I thank you for your sacrifice and wish you the best.

  17. @Ian

    Right suffer all the crap women have to throw at you, for the sake of the children …

    You are aware, men have EVERYTHING from surrogacy, to adoption IF they want children … AND they dont have to deal with a biologically batshit woman … ?

    So IF you want kids, you dont hold ANY monopoly over pua's or mgtow, by being married

    Get OVER yourself married men, if you think you are in ANY way, better off then a man, who realises the TRUE realities & nightmare of being LEGALLY BOUND to a biologically batshit woman …

    Saying that … I'm all for raising children & a family, BUT I refuse to do it CHAINED to a crazy person, who cant see past her biological batshit crazy

    I actually intend to have kids, as a surrogacy, WITHOUT exposing them to a biologically insane female

    Again while love Athol's posts on the whole

    I think game isnt enough … WHAT are the biological conditions to prevent women from being hormonally & biologically insane

    It sure as hell ISNT marriage, as Athol clearly shows

    How ABOUT we figure out WHY women are batshit, instead of blindly excusing women, by calling it oh … its just their biology …

    OR trying to band aid it over with game …

    Why dont we figure out what the VERY REAL biological context a woman has to be in order to not make marriage a living hell for men in the first place …

  18. "Remind me why I should morally and legally dedicate myself to a life of psychological head games, emotional manipulation, and sharing a house with a spoiled, selfish, immature child who subconsciously expects me to be her Daddy (and that's assuming she's one of the "good ones"!)?"

    Wow, you should absolutely NOT do that.

    But if she's one of the good ones then you aren't going to be dealing with that set of problems. (You'll be dealing with some other set of problems… living with another person presents a never-ending set of obstacles, but then so does living alone).

    I'm not really a true 'red pill' person in that I see "secret sauce" behind why game works well for many men to be more cultural in origin than biological. I'm fairly skeptical of a lot of the claims made by evolutionary psychology (not evolution), as employed by the game community. They seem to be true of a certain type of middle class American woman, who has had her ego over-inflated and her head filled with unrealistic expectations about men and relationships, but I don't find that to be universally true of women.

    And that would be my main advice to men seeking a wife who isn't a "spoiled, selfish, immature child who subconsciously expects me to be her Daddy": look for a woman who has at least one foot in some other culture besides Mainstream American Pop. Maybe it is religious in nature, maybe it is ethnic in nature, maybe it is geographic, maybe it is artistic or academic (beware the academic female who has been ruined by feminism though). But if the only major institution that has played a role in the upbringing of your future wife is the American Media Conglomerate (and this is true for a huge number of women), then you should accept that the well has been poisoned, and while you may be able to build a good life with that person, you can only do so by employing what may be a lifelong battle against her base assumptions about the marital relationship, and that battle is going to require manipulation and head games on your part (much moreso than people employ in their regular everyday relationships).

  19. @ Ian, although you have constructed by far the most calm and rational post up here, gotta ask: Why would you ever want men and women to be behavioral equivalents?
    "an Ideal that's impossible to live up to — that is, having a wife that behaves, reasons, and emotes more-or-less like a man who just happens to have a vagina — is highly unrealistic and leads to inevitable disappointment and conflict.”?

    Just think for a second about all the fully male dominated societies around the world today – how many of them are thriving world powers? Um… none. Any culture that has actively suppressed women and made their role subservient and/or voiceless among men has not done well for quite some time — and this was before "women in the workplace" etc etc, so don't jump to "larger labor force". Fully male dominated countries, even ones with resource-rich, idyllic geography, can't get off the ground b/c of their epic fail social systems –they’ve entrenched themselves in self-destructive alpha male behaviors that show no hope of improvement – Elsewhere, at some point someone had to step in and stop the pissing contests, get things domesticated and talk about feelings so we could all get along. Think that’s a bad idea? Well, it’s what America, the UK, Germany, France, Canada, blah blah all the other great nations with humane living conditions have in common. Unless you want to hike it out to the Middle East and be a part of their booming success story, or try AIDS laden Nigeria, Angola, the Sudan…

    Anyway, the point is: Women have evolved distinct “un-masculine” instincts, characteristics, and caretaking traits — that’s the balance and beauty of male/female functional dichotomy. We talk a lot more. That serves a purpose! We want to "emasculate" you? Doubt it. But we probably want people to stop beating the heck out of each other for entertainment.

    We’re NOT supposed to be the same… equality doesn’t mean sameness, and never has. It should just means functionality – a push/pull where both sides are respectful and responsive to the other.

  20. WOW!! Reading these posts sure makes me glad I have been married to the right woman for over 39n years!!

    "…it's like being "happy" in a job where you are constantly fighting to stay where you are, and where the first mistake can be your last."

    I have made many mistakes and so has she. It is called forgiveness. Neither one of us has to worry about the other leaving over a "mistake."

    "Women NEVER stop testing men & they never stop trying to emasculate men."

    To be honest, I am new to the game so I may not be recognizing the tests, but I really don't seem to get many. She knows what I am doing with the game and it does not bother her. Athol, it seems like Jennifer is fully aware of what you are doing and does not really care…true???

  21. @Rmaxd, dude, if you do have spawn I can only hope you do not have daughters because you sure seem to have a thing against female humans.

    I have a lot of sympathy for men that end up reall /needing/ game — and I stand by stating it is in their interest to make game clear to their gf/wives in the theory that women can be quite rational. Get the better relationship going and then point out what's going on. Everyone can be more rational, but it comes easier to some versus others.

    Most women were not raised to think rationally, which, as a women, I find irritating quite frequently. I'll note that most men apparently were not either, but in general men seem to have picked it up whereas women have not.

    I don't know if Athol pursues this angle wrt married couples. He is open with his wife about his concept of married-couple-game. I'm pretty open to my husband about the things I know are irrational triggers for me (and vice-versa) and how we can better work with each other about them. I think we are both better people because of it and it benefits our marriage.

  22. Chip said…
    WOW!! Reading these posts sure makes me glad I have been married to the right woman for over 39n years!!

    "…it's like being "happy" in a job where you are constantly fighting to stay where you are, and where the first mistake can be your last."

    But the above is how Athol say's its meant to be – if you aren't actively "gaming" her every minute of every day, and watching because the first time you cease to dominate her she'll be on you like a pack of dogs and never respect you again. Too much like hard work! If I had a job like that, I'd change it. WTF would I do it on my own time for nothing?

  23. Athol has made it clear that he is not for hidden agendas. Knowing how to make the chocolate cake doesn't make it any less enjoyable eating it.

    I've been married for over 15 years and have lamented along the way that there shouldn't be any games after marriage. I didn't get married to have to continue to try and win my girl over every day. Well, I still wish it was the way I want it to be, but it has taking me 15 years to realize and accept that its not true. The Red pill is a difficult pill to accept when you have been assuming your wife would just continue to love and respect you for 15 years just because you're a good guy and you're completely committed and you make a lot of money and you take great care of the kids and have high moral standards and have never strayed or looked at porn or been abusive to your wife. But the red pill reality is your wife will still lose attraction and respect for you and make your life a living hell, unless you accept the red pill and do things specifically to make her attracted to you.

    I understand the guys who say "why bother?". And I'll be honest, if I didn't want my kids and a great family life in general, I wouldn't bother at this point. But I do want a great family life and a great relationship with a women. So I have to accept the reality and play the damn game.

  24. Yeah, Chip. I agree. I'm so glad I've been married to a wonderful man for 21 years. Some of these guys blaming women and being mad at women seem to be lacking in some very basic character traits. It's no wonder they are unhappy or unable to be in a relationship.

  25. Lainey & Chip. Not sure why either of you would bother to read this blog at all then if things work so well in your relationships by default? I wish it were true for everyone. But it just hasn't been in my case and in so many relationships around me it just isn't the easy happily ever after that it seems it should be.

    I don't hate women at all, but I have accepted that the dynamics that Athol details are real, even if not always consciously done. Like he says, some relationships might not work this way, but many do. I know people who got married and then quit having sex a month later and seem to be happy, but that is a rare exception and doesn't seem healthy to me. I couldn't live happily in a relationship like that.

  26. "…it's like being "happy" in a job where you are constantly fighting to stay where you are, and where the first mistake can be your last."

    First Anon, I hope you understand that I was quoting another poster and saying that my marriage is not like that at all.

    Second Anon, I read this blog because I am new to this concept. Our sex live was not horrible, but there was something lacking. I am beginning to put some of the principles in the book to practice, and it is making a difference. The two biggest are not "asking" for sex, but initiating. I am finding out that sometimes she did not want sex because she knew that she really did not desire an orgasm that night. Now that I don't make that an expectation, she is perfectly willing to let me enjoy myself. By the way, she has a great orgasm at least 95% of the time. Last night was great example. She was too tired and too much on her mind (getting everything done for Christmas) to concentrate on her own pleasure but she was GLAD to let me have mine. Before that would have been a cock block for me.

  27. I agree with last Anon.

    To add to this, I have noticed that in relationships that seem to just work naturally, there is a dominant/submissive element working in it. It just might come more naturally for the couple in this case, but the dynamics to create ongoing attraction are a happening all the same. They don't have to be aware of the recipie to enjoy the cake in this case.

    This is why I don't like the word "game" to describe what Athol is advocating. Its more like "learning the laws of attraction", but "game" is just easier to use. Also, when both parties are aware that one or the other is working on this, then its not really a "game". Its not something that has to be hidden. I think it works better when its not hidden.

  28. I made my way here via a mommy blog called the Mommy Whisperer. I was horrified at first, but I feel like I understand men, and my man better. MMSL turned a good/adequate sex life into fantastic, and so yes, I am here.

  29. "To add to this, I have noticed that in relationships that seem to just work naturally, there is a dominant/submissive element working in it."

    That is not the case for us. I am a textbook "nice guy" and my wife is a naturally strong leader. In some ways, I am very fortunate that she has not gotten bored with me. Can't explain it really, except that her personality is very loyal (ISTJ on the Myers/Briggs). I am an INFP and that has "people pleasing" written all over it!

  30. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Rmaxd: First, I'd argue that there are more varieties of femininity out there than "biologically batshit crazy woman". They are a rare and special breed — and, let's face it, we all have our insane moments — but they are out there, and they can make a splendid mate when properly identified and cultivated. Just sayin'.

    Also, you keep talking about "rationality" and "sanity" like they're simple, easy-to-identify characteristics and the fact is they are not. Don't forget that Reason was only invented a few thousand years ago, and until a few hundred it was the exclusive province of the wealthy and educated. Comparatively speaking "sanity" is brand-spanking new, dating from the 19th century with Freud and James and their compatriots establishing Mental Health as a discipline.

    I'm not going to argue in favor of you searching the world to find the right woman — it sounds like you're good with your surrogacy plan. Good luck with that.

    But I will address the issue of "fixing" women: women aren't broken, and you attempting to hold them to male standards and modes of behavior is every bit as unjust as feminist attempting to hold men to female standards and modes of behavior. That's been a big part of the inter-gender dynamic for four generations, now, the ideas that a) we are able to overcome 100,000 years of evolutionary biology by changing our culture and b) there is something fundamentally "wrong" with the other gender.

    Men aren't "broken". We don't need "fixing", unless we do it ourselves to suit our own interests.

    Women aren't "broken". They don't need "fixing", unless they do it themselves to suit their own interests.

    Where our interests intersect we must be able to manage an inter-gender negotiation of standards of behavior in order to communicate and cooperate effectively. That's what we've been trying to figure out for the last few decades. Traditionally, male and female interests intersect around sex, reproduction, and child rearing. Since Industrialization and equalization of the workforce, we've added work and housekeeping to that list. Beyond that, men and women have their own separate societies, languages, and social expectations that may overlap on an individual basis, but rarely overlap in aggregate. Your response to this painful breaking-in period — withdrawal from mainstream society in an effort to preserve an ideal of marriage that's no longer practical — is actually one of several under consideration. You and the radfems who want to completely eliminate men from the breeding process are both interested in this type of surrogate parenting. It isn't by any means the only response, however. Some of us are trying to handle our crap and make a real relationship work despite the statistics.

  31. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Anon 11:19: I think you put the cart before the horse in your analysis, as it were. In point of fact all societies up to this point were male dominated, the successful and unsuccessful ones alike. By those standards Western Europe and Anglo North America are the only "successful" societies, which discounts the remarkable successes of Japan and other male-dominated cultures. Industrialization is what made those cultures "successful" in an industrialized economy. And even in post-industrial industries male-dominated societies like India are excelling without putting men and women in parity.

    I also strongly take issue with how you characterize a "successful" society as one in which masculine-oriented competition (i.e. "pissing contests") have been reduced or eliminated in favor of "talking about feelings so we could get along". This is another example of using a female-oriented behavior — cooperation — as a means of discrediting a masculine-oriented behavior — competition. By framing things in those terms you are demonstrating explicitly the feminine desire to emasculate. You feel cooperation is superior than competition, and you condemn competition which is the cornerstone of male society.

    This is the kind of crap I'm talking about. Men aren't broken. We didn't need to be "fixed" by women any more than women need to be "fixed" by men. Any fixing we do is according to our own gender interests, and if the other side doesn't like it, they don't have to play anymore. Indeed, a whole generation of middle-class white women decided they didn't like the way men were back in the 1970s and 1980s, and so they didn't play house anymore — they walked out and divorced their husbands in a gigantic orgy of hypergamy. That was their prerogative, and the laws favored them doing that.

    Now that same generation is languishing in post-divorce spinsterhood or found mates that were considerably "down-market" than their originals in many cases. There's a whole generation of white middle-class American women who figured they'd be able to meet husbands and have kids in their 30s after building up a career in their 20s — and now they're finding that the available men out there just don't want them any more.

    The choice how we shape our own sexuality is ours. The choice to how the other gender reacts to that sexuality is theirs. You can tell which ones are most successful by whether their cultural traits get passed on to the next generation . . . or whether they utterly fail to produce offspring based on their choices. And that's where we are now.

  32. Ian Ironwood says:

    @ Chip: It still works for you. Your wife is merely the dominant one, and you are the submissive. Hey, if it works for you . . .

  33. @ Ironwood: I did not say that it "worked" necessarily even though the sex has not been all that bad. I am just saying that since I read the MMSL and and adding Alpha, it is getting better in many areas of our relationship.

  34. "December 19, 2011 1:45 PM
    Anonymous said…
    Athol has made it clear that he is not for hidden agendas. Knowing how to make the chocolate cake doesn't make it any less enjoyable eating it."

    When you cook, and you spend all day busting your butt to cook something, and absolutely everything has to be absolutely perfect or the whole thing gets thrown in the garbage, sometimes by the time you've finished it and served it, you just can't be bothered to eat it.

  35. @Anon 3:56

    Anything enjoyable takes work to get there. But I agree that sometimes when I feel like I have to do just the perfect formula of Alpha and Beta to get my wife to respond to me sexually, it can become tiresome and I can actually lose interest.

    I don't have a good answer for this, but I think that it works best when both sides are working on improving the attraction. For example, just like the husband can be more Alpha to create attraction the wife can work on displays of submission to enhance attraction as well. I don't think it can be up to the man 100% to create the dynamic all the time. If it is, he will eventually tire of it.

  36. @Chip

    Better have your kids DNA tested. J/K

    Seriously, do you and your wife have a mutually satisfying sex life in addition to a great relationship? I am not doubting that the role reverse works for you, but just wonder what it means when you say "it works" for you when you are the submissive one in the relationship.

  37. I think the equivalent female effort in the MMSL paradigm is basically staying hot, which does actually take a lot of effort.

    So: she works out, dresses well, does all that makeup and hair and other stuff to be hot so that the man wants her. Maybe she also bakes pies.

    Meanwhile, the man acts (/is) all manly and skilled and such so that the woman wants him. It doesn't work if either party isn't making an effort, their effort just isn't the same.

  38. If I understand Chip, he's saying they had a great partnership with a relatively low spark, and now he's trying to be more alpha/dominant > ++sex life.

  39. I think I gave the wrong impression, and the last Anon, is right. It is not so much that I am the submissive one, it is that I am, or was 100% Beta. She is not at all dominant in the sense of demanding or bitchy…not at all. She is extremely easy to live with. However, more Alpha on my part has meant more sex. Reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" is also helping at home and other areas.

  40. lol @mac & ian …

    Athol & Dalrock, authors of some of the best blogs in the manosphere states, a lifetime of shit tests & fitness tests, & a general lifetime of insanity, which YOU will have to reel her in from …

    I'm sorry but i refuse to babysit a grown adult …

    Just because I dont want my kids & or my family exposed to that general level of insanity makes me hate women?

    Yea, I hope i dont have daughters, but at least they wont have a batshit mother to model their insanity on

    Most of a womans, entitled batshit attitudes are learnt

    also hilarious post @Ian's excusing womens batshit behaviour, as reason being 1,000 years old … lol

    Look I know you guys are married beta's, & new to game et al, so ill go easy on you guys …

    But let me point out, the only reason you're here is precisely because of your pedestalising comments on women

    Women HATE being excused for their batshit behaviour

    They WANT you to put them in their place …

    They WANT you to objectify them, squeeze their ass, breasts groped, ass smacked etc.

    How the hell is a woman, going to know if she's desired by you, telling her you love her & deep meaningful conversations is never enough … she needs to be physically rough housed …

    & most importantly they WANT you to handle their constant irrationality & illogical state

    Which is why its important for a woman to be in a submissive state as much as possible

    Women DO NOT WANT to be responsible for their emotions, they want you to put them in their place …

    What part of women, want strong Alpha's dont you guys understand ?

    Master being the strong Alpha, then throw in sprinkles of beta at a 100:1 ratio of alpha to beta

    Oh btw, it's precisely because of my years of knowledge of game & pua, i'd make a great father for a daughter

    Knowing how a woman works, is a great gift from a father to a daughter

    As i'd be able to understand because of who she is, as opposed to some pedestalised, all women are pure virginal nuns, feminist nonesense, a vast majority of beta husbands unwittingly destroy their daughters with

    NEVER ever give into a woman, women want to be lead …

    But i dont see any rewards in leading them … apart from a lifetime of irrational batshittery … no thanks

    I'm glad people like Athol & Dalrock are around to help you guys out …

    Game is awesome when applied to all areas of a mans life ….

  41. "We're so used to modern medicine saving women and babies via Caesarean Section that we don't really think consciously about the risks of pregnancy anymore."

    Don't want to burst anyone's bubble here, but child birth is no more dangerous now than it was 200 years ago. Doctor's are "saving" the lives of your women because they typically caused the emergency in the first place with unnecessary interventions.

    Other than that, good post!

  42. Some here (won't name names) seem precisely like the type of guy who can't get a girl, becomes bitter about it and then tries to convince himself and everyone around him that his loneliness is a conscious choice. That's what I've "learnt."

    Fortunately, my partner doesn't constantly shit test me (pretty much never) and I've never felt the need to roughhouse her or put her in her place.

    Seriously, if I had to play the constant manipulative games suggested here just to get laid once in a while by a "batshit" woman, I'd probably just join the priesthood or run off to a Tibetan monastery. Getting laid shouldn't – and isn't – as hard as you all make it out to be. At least when you're not rough housing women and putting them in their place.

    Anyhow, I think, despite the inane pseudo-science so often spewed here, there probably are some occasional pearls of wisdom that could indeed help men and their relationships. Unfortunately, one often must wade through a swamp of drivel to find them.

  43. Anon, you have either not read the book or misinterpreted the message. Athol is not suggesting that you "rough house women and put them in their place." That would be totally alpha but not in a good way. He makes a point of saying that guys need to be a mix of alpha and beta.

  44. I agree with you, Pickle. My honey delivered our kids at home. He was the first person to touch each of our children. In fact, he had to deliver one himself because the baby came within 30 minutes of the first contraction. Another wonderful bonding moment, and not Beta, but Alpha all the way.

    I am not entirely into "game" much to a lot of posters frustration here I know. My dh knows about this site and the book. He's not interested in it. But I do share with him "tips" from this site that I enjoy, and it has made us both happier.

    Often I wonder though about guys that are so anti-women or anti-wife. I've posted on here long enough that I would hope that people know I would never knock my husband. He would never knock me either. Marriage is hard, bitching is easy.

    Whenever I read or hear a woman complain about her husband and not following through on fixing things then I feel it is more a reflection of her own failings. Anyone can get attention complaining. And here when guys complain about women/wives and play the blame card I pretty much feel the same way.

    I picked my husband. He picked me. No, it hasn't always been a bed of roses, but I have the power to make it better, and so does my husband. It is hard sometimes, but nearly everything I've done in my life that was worth it was hard.

  45. Lainey

    Wow. If more people had that attitude, this site would never exist.

    Lucky man. Lucky you.

  46. Standup Guy says:

    Why get married? Cause I like sex. I like getting laid. Marriage is the best way to get regular sex. This has been well documented and studied.

    It is so easy to get sex from my wife. And just because it's easy does not mean it's boring. Contrast that to the dating/single pickup scene.

    Much more effort involved in trying to pick up single women and get them into bed.

    Sure you could put yourself in a non-married, longer term relationship and get sex all the time too. But guess what. The girls are still gonna shit test you. If you are in any kind of relationship with a woman, you will be shit tested.

    Hell I get shit tested by women at work too. Game helps there too.

  47. Chip … perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my comments. They weren't directed to Athol, they were directed toward a couple of the comments in this thread regarding roughhousing women and putting them in their place, etc. I'm sure that's not Athol's message, though it seems at least some take it that way.

    I may also have been overly harsh with my swamp of drivel. No doubt there is some drivel here, but there's worthwhile commentary as well, and if this stuff compels a guy to be a better man and lead a more fulfilling life, then bully for him.

  48. You are very sweet, pdwalker. Marriage is hard. Two people trying to make it through their whole lives happy & with kids. It can get so very messy.

    My husband is extremely loyal & raised that marriage is for life. I was raised with crazy parents that had 6 marriages between the two of them. They weren't as happy as my husband's parents.

    I want to be with someone that will gush over my kids, and understand the heartbreak and pride that goes into raising kids through adulthood. No other man but their father will do that – at least from what I've experienced. Maybe others have found second husbands that have been wonderful. I don't know.

    Even though I love my husband, and love being with him it is still hard, like any other relationship. :)

    Standup guy -
    You know when I was a young bride I wouldn't have understood your post. Now that I've been married forever, I get it.

    One of the absolute best things about being in a committed marriage for a woman is sex. We can have fun, and be free, do whatever and know that person loves us and will still be there in the morning. I cannot imagine having sex with anyone else. I need that sense of intimacy and safeness to go beyond myself and have fun.

    And if you have a good relationship with your wife, know that the 30s are wonderful for women sexually, 40s are even better.

    I also want to be happy and have fun along the way. I do think Athol is a good site for even fairly happily married couples. It never hurt to make a good thing better.

  49. Pickle,

    how many women and babies die as a result of purpureal fever, post-partum haemorrage and Rhesus mismatch nowadays? Now read the stats from 100-200 years ago.

    How many babies suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation? 200 years ago, they were all dead anyway.

    As for the lady who had the babies delivered at home by their husband? I'm betting pound notes to pinches of pigshit that ambulances, high-dependency paediatric wards and operating theatres were a phone call and short ride away. It's like saying you're in no danger when you walk in the wilderness, knowing full well if you hit trouble the world and his wife is one phone call away.

  50. First of all, I just want to point out that it’s funny seeing women’s comments in this thread because they remain utterly predictable.

    Demonspawn at 9:45 AM totally nailed it.

    @Ian

    If there’s a gender that can be blamed for thinking in terms of ideals in their relationships, I’d argue it’s women, not men. But I agree, anyone who tries to 'fix' my 'toxic masculinity' can f*ck off and die.

    @Anon 11:19 AM

    That’s just BS. Some backward societies are and have been patriarchal, but all advanced civilizations have been patriarchal whereas all matriarchies are backward in comparison.

    @Standup Guy

    You actually think the reason why it’s supposedly a good idea to sign up for Marriage 2.0 is because it will get you sex? The mind boggles.

    Höllenhund

  51. "Women are the way they are with men, because they historically have taken enormous risks in having sex with a man."

    Men have taken every conceivable type of enormous risk throughout history in order to fulfill their reproductive role as well. It takes a toll on their psyche as well. Does that make women more forgiving in their response to male behavior? Does that convince them that they need to accept men the way they are? No.

    Höllenhund

  52. I love sex with my husband, but that's not why I married him. I married him because I wanted to spend every day of my life with my best friend.

    I just can't help but think that open lines of communication, mutual respect, acceptance of each other, and general compatibility (in bed and everywhere else) can negate the need for Game. I don't go batshit on him, and he doesn't "play" me.

    Is that completely Pollyanna?

  53. Jane, I'm with you. No batshit, no game. Doesn't mean I'm perfect, but when I do screw up, he calls it out and I politely apologize and make it right. It takes a lot of trust that we worked very hard to build together. So, this post wouldn't apply to you, I'd argue. :)

  54. @Hellhound, Yes, it is good to be masculine and not to let anyone take that from you, no doubt about it. But are you perfect, just the way you are? I'm not. I have found that a good marriage helps me to grow in ways I never would have dreamed of, and definitely would not have done on my own. A crappy marriage was crappy.

    So if your message is "don't have a crappy marriage" I think you are in line with the message of this blog. But I would suggest to you and other players that when the clock rings its final toll, you won't regret growing and learning in love, and having someone who loves you for the man you are, and continues to provide you with opportunities to be the man. It rocks.

  55. elhaf, can you name me ONE great benefit that ONLY Marriage 2.0 can give to a man?

    Höllenhund

  56. @anon
    "Some here (won't name names) seem precisely like the type of guy who can't get a girl"

    You do realise i've stated im a pua …
    I've probly slept with more women, then you've had sex with your wife … ie 5 times in the last 10 years … lol

    Oh btw i see your wife-domineering mom taught you well with the cant get laid diatribe … lol – nice work with the pussywhip ladies …

    @Jane
    "open lines of communication, mutual respect, acceptance of each other""

    And right on cue jane, spouting the usual feminist partyline …

    Heres news for you jane … Men & women dont want mutual respect

    Men want to lead & women want to be led

    Women want to be rough housed & dominated … read Athols posts of where his wife LOVES rough sex & loves having her ass spanked, groped etc. … even though he felt guilty about it at first … lol

    As for open lines of communications, usually means listen to my pointless conversations about nothing all day long …

    As women are essentially irrational, trying to talk about anything technical's more like spelling things out to a 10 yr old …

    Fun times …

    Unwittingly jane you've just become the posterchild for batshit crazy … lol

    @elhaf

    Sorry but i'll have some great kids & they're grandkids to see me through to my old age … & all without having to expose them to an irrational biologicaly insane woman …

    I refuse to put up with the shit tests, fitness tests & a 101 other things a woman turns a mans life into a walking nightmare

    So yes i dont a lifetime of insanity, i know well enough what a woman is, & i refuse to tolerate it

  57. Good lord, rmaxd! Jane didn't sat she doesn't want her husband ro lead. He probably does it with respect. We may be arguing semantics on the "roughed up" and "rough sex." It's possible sone of us read "roughed up" as abused. Slapped. Hit. Punched. Doesn't go over well with me, that's for sure. But, I don't think that's what you mean. Seems lije a liytle lightening up, and we're kinda saying the same thing.

    Maybe I missed it, buy I don't thinm anon ever stated how many times s/he has had sex with his/her spouse. So, your comment is easily dismissed as mean-spirited.

    Athol can close comments on any post at any time. The rest of us can just not bother reading anymore.

  58. rmaxd said …

    "I've probly slept with more women, then you've had sex with your wife … ie 5 times in the last 10 years … lol"

    And then …

    "Oh btw i see your wife-domineering mom taught you well with the cant get laid diatribe … lol – nice work with the pussywhip ladies … "

    Hmmm.
    Pot. Kettle. Black.
    It's my guess that guys who really do score a lot – as opposed to pretenders – don't cruise blogs about marriage to brag about their conquests.

  59. Right … I make a single comment on being decent with chicks & all of a sudden i cruise blogs about my exploits… ? lol

    You do realise im responding to someone who thinks i cant get laid? … can you read? lol

    "@anon
    "Some here (won't name names) seem precisely like the type of guy who can't get a girl"

    You do realise i've stated im a pua … "

  60. Rmaxd,

    I've lost count of the number of times you've repeated the same shit about women being irrational — go look in the goddamn mirror. Every time you fly into the same rant about women wanting this, women wanting that, you only solidify the evidence that you've been brainwashed into the same patterns that your "batshit crazy" women follow, I should deserve this, I should deserve that, blahblahblah…

    Go take your one-night stands and your "womanly" insecurities somewhere else — Athol does not cater to that, as he has stated before.

  61. Rmaxd,

    I realize you describe yourself as a "pua." It seems it's something you feel compelled to repeat often.
    You do realize I, and likely others, don't believe you, right? Call me cynical, but I don't believe everything someone says about him/herself on the Intergoogle. Especially so-called successful "puas" who cruise marriage
    blogs to talk about their exploits.

    p.s. Do people really say lol still? Like, OMG!!!!

  62. Jane said,

    "I love sex with my husband, but that's not why I married him. I married him because I wanted to spend every day of my life with my best friend."

    I can say the same about my wife.

    Jane said,

    "I just can't help but think that open lines of communication, mutual respect, acceptance of each other, and general compatibility (in bed and everywhere else) can negate the need for Game. I don't go batshit on him, and he doesn't "play" me."

    I can say much the same; however I don't see "the game" as being manipulative. Athol's wife, Jennifer, knows exactly what he is doing. In my case, I am a classic "nice guy" and that affects many areas of my life, not just my marriage. My wife knows exactly what I am trying to accomplish, so in that way, it is not a “game” in the strictest sense of the word. I would guess that you are both emotionally healthy. That is much the same in our relationship and anything that each of us needs to improve upon is relatively minor.

    Rmaxd said,

    "As for open lines of communications, usually means listen to my pointless conversations about nothing all day long …"

    That is certainly not what "open lines of communication" means. It means that two adults can be open and honest with each other and they have learned how to communicate even when they disagree without it turning into a huge fight.

    I must say, however, that my wife never engages in "pointless conversation". We are intellectual equals and can talk about a wide variety of topics, none of which are pointless. We actually enjoy hearing about each other's day. Imagine that???

  63. Rmaxd…

    Dude you need to lighten up a bit and stop being so scared.

    Generalizing like you do across an entire gender is sad because you are likely missing out on some really great experiences outside of having sex.

    I am also willing to wager that the girls you do end up with are not likely marriage material women anyway, so your experience gets diluted by some of the drama queens and you generalize that across the entire gender.

    You might want to diversify to see if you feelings change.

  64. @ponyboy

    lol now i'm scared? Of what exactly …

    Of getting tied down to some carousel riding woman, who's spent most of her best years getting more notches & cocks, then most PUA's or gamers?

    Is this what im missing out on?

    Or how about I hook up with a typical feminist 20 yr old hottie & give up my house & kids & half my livelihood after divorce rape?

    Looks like you're the one who needs to figure out what you'll be missing after getting your ass raped in divorce court … oh yea, then theres the cohabitation laws …

    Right i'm missing out on alot …

    I get what i want, when i want, from as many different flavours of women as i want …

    I dont need to be best friends with some woman, who's spent most of her life riding the carousel & brainwashed into feminism

    Enjoy your monogamy & slaving away in a society for a wife, with the power to screw you over at the drop of a hat …

    @Chip

    Yea go ahead with your best friend theory …

    Wait until you stop acting like an alpha, or any of the alpha traits she hangs around for

    Then see how quick, your so called best friend lasts …

    As for "It means that two adults can be open and honest"

    Wrong women want to be dominated & told what they want to hear

    Remember the vast amount of women, in troubled marriages on this VERY blog, want to be gamed into submission

    This is their MAIN complaint

    Women DONT want open communication, they want cocky & funny, they want to be gamed

    I find it hilarious you admit YOU NEED to game your wife, while at the same time you deny calling it manipulating her

    If you're so convinced women want "open communication", why dont you stop gaming her & go back to being a nice guy?

    & see how long your marriage lasts?

    Why dont you use "open communication" INSTEAD of game & see how long your marriage takes before she destroys your marriage, children, home & everything you've worked for?

    I give it 6 months at the most …

    If your wife requires game, she's NOT your best friend, she's a woman who doesnt know how to communicate with men & never will, which is why YOU need to learn game, instead of her …

    This is the basic truth about women, women dont know how to communicate with men, they're what i call gender illiterate's to the bitter end

    Women are essentially gender ignorant, clueless about their own needs & the men in their lives

    Which is WHY you & everyone else is here on this site …

    There would NEVER be any need for game, if women had a clue about how men function

    Remember you wouldnt need Game, if women actually knew how to openly communicate with men

    Yes, its a one way street … men KNOW how to communicate with women, women dont

    Game proves it

    Enjoy your one sided relationship with women, who cant be bothered to figure out why she falls out of love, with you mr niceguy , as she screws you over for everything you've got in divorce court

    Me, i'll enjoy diversifying my cock … with your future wife, before i steal the best years of her life & hand over to you as a beta chump, once im done with her …

    ALL without having to pay her a single penny in a mortgage or child support

    I dont need to provide a mortgage or child support to pay for a best friend, i'll leave that for the chumps … the guys the women settle for once i'm finished with them …

    Enjoy your BFF buddies, after i've tapped that ass a million times before you got there chumps …

    Btw i've been in long term relationships with plenty of women, i know EXACTLY what im not missing out on …

    Pity you guys dont … & never will, enjoy your slavery to a womans batshittery, while you try to game her, to save your sanity … lol

  65. Rmaxd wins most insecure asshole with the smallest cock award!!!

  66. Anonymous,

    That's uncalled for regardless of the level of maturity, or lack thereof that some posters display.

  67. Hmm,

    You gotta admit its hilarious baiting the beta married chumps on this site …lol

    Guys i'm just warning you exactly about what you've got yourselves into …

    You live in a society where women are encouraged to never understand how a man thinks, or his needs

    Which is why theyre batshit in the first place …

    You married guys need to realise your disposability is your greatest weakness

    You're putting everything you own, at risk, at the whim of a womans biology

  68. [url=http://www.office2010buy.com]www.office2010buy.com[/url] mpvubi
    [url=http://www.office2010buy.com]http://www.office2010buy.com[/url] ytkm

  69. I’m convinced no matter which woman a Guy marries she will eventually turn into a total bitch, period. And I can lend merit to the idea of the Guy being more assertive and standoffish. I’ve been married 11years and can truly truly say I completely understand it when a Guy says he really wants to choke a bitch….I got 3 great kids, so at least I have that. Once the kids are grown up and out of the house I’m gonna dump this bitch like a hot potato and go get a 25yo girlfriend…..never get married again that’s for sure.

Speak Your Mind

*