Blue Pill Regret, Red Pill Pain and An Encouraging Thought

There were two similar comments on an earlier post, this is the shorter one and references the first.
Reader:  ROI – my situation is similar to yours and I struggle with the same issues. I tolerated years of sex that swung between mediocre and nonexistent but finally started changing myself using the MAP techniques. The increased sex rank and destabilization has started working. My wife is initiating sex occasionally and her level of enthusiasm has increased somewhat. The dynamic of our relationship outside the bedroom has become better with more alpha on my part. But I’m just not excited about having sex with her anymore and it is troubling.
I don’t think its about the difference in sex rank. It’s not a matter of “I’ve lost 50 pounds and you haven’t so now you’re ugly”. It’s more about the sexual disconnect that I’ve created over the years. Wanting something I could hardly ever get was driving me to madness so I willed myself to not want it. My sex life became masturbation and porn and they never let me down during all those years she did. My instinctual reaction now when I think about having sex with my wife is anger.
Intellectually I understand the red pill idea that women are for the most part automatons when it comes to their sexual response. Intellectually I understand that it’s irrational to be angry at my wife for not behaving the way I wanted – it was my failure for not evoking those behaviors. But it just fucking hurts. It’s hard not to be resentful. It’s like I’m stuck in these bad patterns of thought. The rage has worn a groove in my head and now it’s difficult to accept improvement in things that I’ve bitched and moaned for the last decade. The recent articles here and at Ian’s site about initiating have had me thinking a lot about this lately. I don’t want to initiate anymore. Part of me doesn’t trust her with my sexuality any more because she’s used it to hurt and humiliate me in the past.
Athol – any ideas? We are starting to get what we said we wanted. Why can’t we be happy about it?
And another reader in the same commenting thread…
Reader:  I think your feelings are normal. I’ve had some of the same struggles in my head after running the map and changing 10+ year bad sexual and emotional relationship into a great one. The reality of the red pill has empowered my to change the relationship into what it should be, but I’m still mad about it at some level. I kind of feel cheated out of all those wasted years. And I sort of hate it at some level that I have to game my wife into loving me the way I think she should just love me anyway. But that part of my thinking is fading away, just taking some time.
Athol:  The Red Pill does not taste of chocolate. In fact it’s pretty damn bitter sometimes. The worse you’ve done things the Blue Pill way, the harsher the Red Pill tastes going down. It really sucks to realize you’ve wasted so much time and effort to work against your own interests.
Jennifer and I have always had a good sex life, but we’ve always struggled with money. One of the things that I realized around six years back was that instead of trying so hard to have an equal relationship, we would have been better off if I really had just pushed myself harder to advance my career goals. This point was hammered home when one of her friends got engaged to a dentist and Jennifer told me the news via excited verbal diarrhoea. The word “dentist” was repeated very five seconds with increasingly greater emphasis. The harder I tried to not listen, the louder Jennifer got. Dentist, dentist, dentist, dentist, dentist….
My response to her was simple. “I’m sorry I’m not a dentist.” Which sounds weak, but my eye contact and tone was icy steel.
Jennifer immediately checked up and apologized and rattled off a long list of my good points and contributions to the family. Held me tight and kissed me deeply. She wasn’t intentionally trying to hurt me, so easy to forgive her in that sense. It was the purely unintentional nature of it all that stung. For sure Jennifer liked me, loved me and wanted me, but she would have liked me, loved me and wanted me more if I was a dentist or whatever else similar I could have been. All those years of being superdad and Mr.Equal wasn’t exactly as great as I thought they were.
And so I resolved to make something of myself, and immediately made things significantly worse by wasting eighteen months trying to sell real estate and basically suffering a massive loss of income. I tried very hard for far too long to make it work, and it all turned to crap on me. To her great credit, Jennifer did stick by me and frankly was too supportive for our own good, she should have chewed me out about it all not working rather than put up with it. I would have stopped trying so hard earlier. 
I went back to nursing four years ago, and we’ve been digging out of the money hole slowly but steadily. 2011 was a very special year in that finally the book was out and the money situation shifted in our favor more. We’ve also slowly changed to me being more of the career minded one and Jennifer has picked up a lot of my housekeeping slack, and even started adding in some extra part time work as well. We’re both responsible for getting into our mess and we’re both working to get ourselves out.
But yeah… we could have done so much of this right from the beginning. So many wasted years that it’s kind of sickening to think about in that sense. And I would be lying if I said that there haven’t been times where it really doesn’t seem fair that I have to work harder than she does. But I can say that the more I get things together, the less it all bothers me and it is what it is. Captain works harder than the First Officer. We’re getting on better than ever and the sex in the last twelve months is amazing.
It’s funny looking back too, my first serious girlfriend Mary Fitness Tested me hard over my career goals. I wanted to go into ministry work and help people, she thought I would be better off using my writing and humor skills doing something like marketing. One of the things I liked most about Jennifer was her idealism and that the social status thing didn’t matter, but it is a factor after all. Doh!
I will say this though, without Jennifer and without all these endless missteps and dead ends along the way, I would not be were I am today. There would be no MMSL. Which is as Gandalf says, “Is an encouraging thought.”
Because everything happens for a reason…
…but usually the reason is because someone was stupid. The Red Pill does not taste of chocolate, and frankly it’s more like battlefield medicine than anything else, but it is excellent knowledge. Armed with that knowledge you, and I, and together, we can be less stupid and make significant changes to our lives.
It’s okay to be angry. Just use it as motivation to propel things in the right direction.
Often things get worse before they get better. But they can get better. Give it some time, get into action and start making positive changes. In time things will feel more enjoyable. Feelings follow actions. If things are improving, things are improving.
“Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later”   Link


  1. Anonymous says:

    Intellectually I understand the red pill idea that women are for the most part automatons when it comes to their sexual response.

    Best one sentence description of Game ever. God, how I wish someone could have explained that to me in the mid 1990s when I was young.



  2. Mama Fish says:

    Great link! Fascinating about the three strategies for improving the marriage. So, despite the law dictating what marriage is/is not, ultimately your own beliefs are the key. That's definitely true for us – it was one of those essential things that we found we had in common early on. It was one of the non-negotiables – marriage is a lifelong committment for better or for worse.

    Maybe some precommitment psychological profiling would come in handy. Most senior executive positions require them here. :D

  3. But women AREN'T automatons. Their sexual response may be unconscious, but they can also choose to act and do stuff. Excusing a wife who isn't holding up her side of the marriage just encourages more of the same sense of entitlement.

  4. Stargate Girl says:

    how do you decide who works harder? is it $ being brought in? hours spent working a day? I think I work just as hard as my husband(Captain). I only work 3 mornings a week outside of home, the rest is my full time job as SAHM & wife. Is my value less because I bring in less $?

    If you go by $, than yeah, I'm a slacker. If you go by hours a day, than since I'm 24/7 on call it'd be me. That seems a trifle skewed. We both work hard, maybe some days one more than the other, to make our life what it is, and I think it's pretty damn good.

  5. Stargate Girl –

    In context, it's pretty clear what Athol is saying. No, it's not about gross income, it's about work — i.e. effort.

  6. Dreadpiratk says:

    "And I would be lying if I said that there haven't been times where it really doesn't seem fair that I have to work harder than she does"

    I've felt this way sometimes I have to get up early, I have to travel long distances and work outside in the bitter upstate NY winter while she stays home warm and cozy… then I spend a day home with the kids, and watch my wife clean, cook, parent and home school the kids, often all at once, and suddenly I'm not so upset about it.

    Good post. One of the secrets of happiness is to be where you are, not spend your time looking back. I've wasted too much time beating myself up about past mistakes, and sometimes I miss out on present happiness because of it.

  7. "Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later"

    That describes us! Getting married at 16 and 17 it is no wonder we struggled as a couple. Someone said to us about 20 years ago, "You two don't like each other very much, do you?" That was true. Today we are best friends and although the sex was not as bad as some have it, it is 10 times better since MMSL.

    It also helps that my wife is much like Jennifer in that she is so easy to forgive. In fact, she rarely does anything that needs forgiving.

    The biggest change for me has been the realization that she is not going to initiate most of the time. She is not being mean or unloving, it just is not in her nature. Most women have responsive desire. I just had to get over it. She can't change that anymore than I can change my spontaneous desire.

  8. Anonymous says:


  9. Stargate Girl says:

    Again, how do you decide who is putting in more effort? It's not clear.

  10. Anonymous says:

    I sympathize with the genesis of this post. I know my own thoughts and I think that I've been trying to keep this ship afloat, emotionally & sexually, while my wife's been slacking. I don't understand why I have to put in so much effort to getting her aroused & interested in me. She doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get me interested. Since she doesn't initiate, it seems like she doesn't care.
    However, that last conclusion is based on a faulty assumption: that my wife and I are the same person.
    After thinking all this through, I decide it's irrelevant. What is my goal? Is my goal to enact revenge for all those years of neglect and percieved lack of concern? No. My goal is to get my wife to lay me like tile.
    My emotions either fuel that goal or they are ignored and discarded. No, it's not easy, but a happy marriage and a vibrant sex life isn't easy either.

  11. Stargate Girl–

    If you go by hours a day, than since I'm 24/7 on call it'd be me.

    The on call 24/7 is rubbish. What matters is hours actually worked. As well, you may be the first one on call but if there's a real emergency your husband is 24/7 on call as well I'm sure. Also playing with your kids hardly counts as work. That's recreation. I imagine when your husband does it he regards it as recreation too.

  12. Athol Kay says:

    I agree it's not always clear. However in our case, Jennifer has frequently asked me if there's anything she can do to shift some of the workload from me to her. As 90% of what I do for MMSL is writing, there's not much she can do to help directly.

    She's actually started up some additional part time work from home to allow me to start looking to reduce my regular jobs hours and be freer to work on MMSL stuff.

    I'm putting in about 80 hours a week with my regular job, commute and MMSL, and Jennifer is putting in about 55 hours a week with her regular job, commute and part time work. Jennifer does a lot more of the housework related tasks than I do.

    She is *very* productive and functional, but I'm working harder than she is. We both agree on this.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Are men really surprised that women want men who are good Providers more than they want equals? Shocked that being broke isn't sexy? A broke man is like a fat woman- sure you might tolerate it and love the person anyway, but there is nothing sexy about it. One of the things that turns me on about my husband is knowing that he can and will take care of me and our kids. He doesn't sit around worrying about who is working harder, because he doesn't want his woman to work hard. He won't let his family struggle financially. That's a lot sexier than complaining that you worked 10 hours and she worked less. It's like men don't want to be men nowadays, and then they complain when women aren't attracted to them.

  14. Anonymous says:

    As a sahm I do not work harder than my husband. My contributions are to the family are valuable but they don't take as much effort. We are both fine with that. If you as a woman are working as hard as your man then you need a better man. If I'm going to work like a man then why do I need one around? If I have to work full time, and handle most of the housework and child care then I might as well be a single mom for all having a husband has added to my quality of life.

  15. Anonymous says:

    If you are both happy with the arrangement, then it's great. But it sounds like you're both working more than full time, then she's taking on additional household tasks so that you can pursue your dream. So it sounds like a pretty good deal for you – no question that you're both working hard, but she's taking on additional routine, tedious stuff that has to be done so that you can do the thing you really want to be doing.

  16. Athol Kay says:

    Well if MMSL becomes a raging success, it would also be a pretty good deal for her too wouldn't it?

  17. Stargate Girl says:

    Are you a parent? Cos you seem to have no clue about being one. One of children has a life threatening medical condition. On a good night i only have to get up once to check on him. On a bad night, I'm up every hour. My day starts at 6am when I get up. M-T-W, i wake my eldest and then I go to work. I get my daughter off bus at noon. During day I'm doing my darndest to get ahead of the havoc kids leave in their wake. I'm cleaning, running household errands, getting kids to Dr appts. I have dinner on the table when my husband walks in. Kids help clean kitchen and then it's getting them all ready for bed. Read to youngest, tuck her in. Finish the kitchen. Still doing laundry-i manage to sit and watch the tube a bit while folding laundry- have some one on one time with hubby, fall into bed around 11. Finally get some sleep. 'Beep!Beep! oh yeah, that's the son's medical alarm. goes off at any hour. Fun.

    I do all the night-time care during the week so my husband can go to work and do his job.

    So don't tell me being on call 24/7 is rubbish. you haven't walked a mile in my shoes.

  18. Stargate Girl says:

    Thank you for your clarification.

  19. A danger of running the MAP is that you anticipate that things may not work out to your liking with your wife and you mentally and emotionally prepare to leave her–at least, to some degree, depending on each couple. The thought of a new sexual partner, especially when fueled by flirting or porn, creates an associated dopamine rush. New partners are exciting! So if things do start to work back at home, it's like you just had a small taste of a drug that is now being withdrawn. Regardless of anything else, or any intellectual process about your relationship, this is going to create stress, which will manifest as anger and so forth. Part of you will actually want the relationship to fail so that you can get a bit of that excitement into your sex life and, like the wife's hamster, will rationalize why it should. What is needed is a determined shift in focus back to your marriage, though without any neediness.

    As long as you have a door open to see into the partying world of a new sex partner, you will resent being married. IMO, when there is still hope for your marriage you need to keep that door closed.

  20. How was Doug1 meant to know you were caring for a medically complex child? I'm not sure I knew this either.

    There's a world difference between a kid that wakes up for a glass of water and one that needs constant medical intervention.

    The problem is that every SAHM claims she's on call 24/7 as a massive unending burden, which is vastly overstating things for 95%+ of SAHMs. However, if you have an actually medically complex child, or one with autism et al, you really do have a horribly draining job assignment.

    Do you get any respite nights/care?

  21. "He doesn't sit around worrying about who is working harder, because he doesn't want his woman to work hard. He won't let his family struggle financially. That's a lot sexier than complaining that you worked 10 hours and she worked less. It's like men don't want to be men nowadays, and then they complain when women aren't attracted to them."

    If we presume that your view on how relations between men and women with regards to work effort is true, it is 100% the fault of women, through feminism, that the situation is what it is. YOU made being the provider into evil patriarchy, YOU made equality the goal, YOU said that tehse things don`t matter sexually etc. etc. So if tehre is anything "wrong" with men in this regard today it is womens fault and they need to own up to that responsibility. So in sted of putting men down and complaning about it you should be pointing the finger towards women for having made men change in this regard and you should show men sympathy for having been robbed of their, in your view, natural role. Presumably their natural role would make them the most satisfied and women are the ones who have implemented these changes.

  22. I don`t agree with your view of work effort though. Historically, men have done the most dangerous and most tiring short term work such as hunting dangerous animals, going to war and building houses, while women have had about ten children AND worked far more hours during the day than men doing work in the tribal living area and tended to old and sick relatives for years. If you look at African tribes today they normally follow this exact structure. THe women work far more hours but less intensly and less dangerously.

    If you look at more recent history (last 2000 years) women have had ten children, cared for old and sick relatives for years and worked their asses of in farms either inside the house or frequently helping outside.

    If you look at the housewife 1900-1950 in the west and many places in the third world today she rarely had ten children but usually more than today, she was obligated to care for the elderly and sick and cocking, cleaning, sowing clothes and doing other work in the home was full time work. To the degree she worked less than her husband she REPAID that by more or less being his servant when he was home and was trainined by family and media to more or less worhsip him (look at advertising from 50-100 years ago and you will see this). In addition men had a previlidged position of power as a reward for their work.

  23. If you look at the upper classes throughout history women had to manage estates that were comparable to large hotels with large numbers of staff and to prepare for representation functions in addition to raising many children. In total this would often be full time work.

    So, it has at no point been the case that the man works hard and the woman does not. They both work hard but differently. Today we have the special situation that because of mens inventiveness being a housewife does not require the full time work it did before. And school and after school activities and kindergarden takes away most of the time that was previously spent on rearing the very few children that women do have.

    In addition to this mens efforts have always been about the children rather than about women. We wanted to provide for you so that you could give us and raise and take care of our children. THere is an analogy in chivalry. Chivalry was never extended to all women. It was ment only for virtous women (virgins and faitfhull wives) because they could give us stable functional families with loyal good wives. Even though it might apear on the surface that women don`t have to earn favours for men but get mens effort just for being women they have always had to earn it in some way such as being chaste, being feminine, doing an equaly demanding but different type of work, bearing 10-12 children and rasing them etc. Working my ass of in order to provide a wife in todays society with leisure time has zero appeal and feels like slavery. There is not the equal but different exchange of energy that has always been there. I would bust my ass of and work round the clock to provide well for my family if needed but at the point were what is required of her at home is so little that my work is just about providing her with leisure time in as high a degree of material luxury as possible I have no interest in it. THat feels like slavery. She would have to compensate in some way to maintain an equal exchange of energy. That could be in the form of serving me in the home in the way eastern european and asian women are trained to and western women were trained to before. Not a single western woman I know does that for their overworked husband. Or she could do volunteer work that mathced my effort so that hte family as a whole contributed to the good of society because my hard worke allowed her to work for free but in no damn way will she just have leisure while I work. Thats just pathetic anyway.

    If the red pill and hte manosphere has thaught me on key thing it is that women do not value or repay providers in any meaningfull way today. They did before but now it is the personal alpha apeal that gets rewarded. THis diminshes, possibly even entirely removes, the appeal of working hard to provide for a woman. If I get an asian wife I know being a good provider will be rewarded with what I desire for women even if I don`t provide alpha apeal. With a western woman I know for a fact that I will be rewrarded with little else than contempt and belittling for being a good provider beta without personal alpha. So busting my ass for her leisure just won`t happen, ever.

  24. A set up were the total of a mans effort in terms of work outside and in hte home in addition to the crappy deal marriage today is for men is a certain way to make even more men avoid marriage. If it becomes an expectation that I am supposed to put in a much harder effort just because I am so blessed to be married to a woman I will instead choose a life with multiple (often much much younger lovers, constant new crushes and sex whenever I want it because I can rotate several women. All my work would benefit me directly and I would, over the long term have all the sex I want but with true variety (different women instead of different lingerie on the same woman) and I would be able to have sex with much younger women than would be willing to commit to me or than it would be wise for me to commit to. Women need to sweeten the deal of marriage to avoid men with options forsaking it not make the deal even worse. You have very little to offer me in a marriage that I can not get outside a marriage except children.

  25. I would add to this that for some women driven by more … Hmmm… Spiritual goals? That maybe it's not specifically how much he makes exactly, but the willingness to do whatever it takes to keep things afloat. A man who has the *potential* to earn a lot, but refuses to take a lesser job when the chips are down just doesn't cut it for me. Whereas the man who takes the janitorial job until he gets his career back on track brings a woman like me the bigger gina tingle.

  26. Stargate Girl says:

    Our medically complex child is a type 1 diabetic as well as on the Autism Spectrum. Fun! I get Friday and Saturday night off, and if I'm having a really rough week, hubby will take a night for me.

    I apologize for the "puke", but as a SAHM who does not sit on her posterior all day, I tend to feel very resentful at people who think that's all SAHM's do. Honestly, I don't know who these SAHM's are who are able to sit and twiddle thumbs. My SAHM friends also have kids on the Autism Spectrum and we're all busy trying to get them to their needed services and keep life on as even a keel as possible. all of us also have activities for ourselves outside the home as well. I play in community orchestras and bands and do musician recruitment for a group I play with. Hubby has a group he plays with. Logistics can be a total nightmare at times.

    When asked how I manage, I usually respond " Like we have another choice? We do what we have to do."

  27. As wifey noted I do weekend and we alternate vacations. I also can run the entire house if need be, which I did when her parents both died suddenly and when she had surgery.

    Equal effort in my book is having roughly the same amount of free time, in aggregate. Some days or weeks it will skew one way, but in total, we are about the same. A SAHM's time is fragmented and that takes a toll. With 3 kids, nearly every day is an "exception" when it comes to medical issues and appointments, even routine care. There are very few days where we put the kids on the bus, and they come home without something happening or needing to be done. A full-time job for her would be impossible and cost 5 times as much as she'd earn. Part time works perfectly.

    I count our time doing music as free time.

  28. Anonymous says:

    From what I've read, women in tribal situations worked for about three hours per day and spent the rest of the day in leisure time.

  29. Athol Kay says:

    You guys do know I'm a nurse who has worked in the developmental disablities field for the last fifteen years right? I've got a bunch of autistic kids I take care of. Trust me I get it.

    Why even call yourself a SAHM? Call yourself a Autism Mom or something. Less confusing. :-)

    Plus you guys should be very proud of yourselves that you are still together and sounding happy with each other. The divorce rate for parents of autistic kids is quite awful.

  30. Anonymous says:

    I agree with anon @ 11:50. I hope that you appreciate your wife and tell her so often because it seems like she's doing a lot to support your dream. She'd probably do less work as a single mom.

  31. Athol Kay says:

    LMAO I just read that out to Jennifer. She rolls her eyes at you.

  32. Anonymous says:

    First, I want to thank Athol for the honesty in this article. I recently read His Needs, Her Needs, which contained an eye opening (for me) section on the importance most women place on thier husband being a good provider. I was raised in a feminist informed world and like Athol, I looked back with chagrin at the wasted efforts in trying to be an "equal" partner as opposed to being a "traditional man." Oh well, you live and learn.

  33. Stargate Girl says:

    knew you were a nurse, but not in what specialty. I am planning to go back to school, working towards an RN or a PA. Not really sure which. Area of interest at this point is geriatrics-end of life care.

    My original career field was as a music educator. I still occasionally do private lessons, but since losing hearing in one ear, I'm a bit more reluctant. Hard to run a band if ya can't hear em all :D

    I think we are pretty happy with each other. We in general can't keep our hands off each other, and make sure we take time to converse and discuss things other than kids. We have some friends we try to have a game night with weekly. Sometimes their kids are with them, sometimes not.

    I think we have been able to cope with having a medically complex child is that we do have a good support network. We are very fortunate that we have friends who are willing to learn about diabetes and how to manage our son's condition so he can join in sleep overs and other activities. Our families are 5 hours distant, but they step up too when we are in town and want to get out sans kids.

    But even with all OTC's at home work and support, I am still one wiped Mama at the end of the day.

    I'm very grateful and blessed that we are in the position I can be a SAHM. It was very important to me that I be able to do that, and we had planned our jobs and finances so that I could. I started part time outside the home last year, and that has been enjoyable.

  34. Anonymous says:

    I remember reading that book and the author basically says that everything that goes wrong in a relationship is the man's fault.

  35. Stargate Girl says:

    Really?Haven't read it, but The more I peruse the "manosphere" the more I think the prevailing attitude is everything that goes wrong is the woman's fault…. Only a few (MMSL, HUS, D504) seem either neutral or no fault applied and more on the constructive end of how to work together and understand each other as a couple.

  36. Anonymous says:

    There are a few tribes today and probably have been througout history were women AND men only had to work a few hours a day. Take a tour of African tribes today and you will find them struggling hard all day to survive. It is interesting that you chose to only write that WOMEN in tribal situations only worked 3 hours when, in the tribes where this is the case, both men and women worked only a few hours. It shows that you, or your sources, have an agenda in scewing this to the benefit of women at the cost of men.

  37. Anonymous says:

    It is very simple. If the expectation of men is that they should put in more work than the women so that the women can enjoy a more comfortable life than the men then the men should ALWAYS have preference over women to any job they aply for and they should be paid more than working women and have preference in every type of education they aply for etc. etc.

  38. I didn't get that impression at all from the book, I thought it was pretty evenhanded. In fact, it has a politically incorrect chapter about how a man's needs include that his wife keep up her appearances and not become a fat slob.

  39. @ Anonymous Jan 29, 2012 09:25 AM

    I believe that Athol's point is that you can't really change other people, just yourself. So, all change must be done to yourself — the other person must either respond to it, or do nothing, in which case he leans towards divorce.

  40. Ian Ironwood says:

    But oftentimes what they choose to act on, and how, is determined by subconscious factors that are then rationalized into "free will" or "following their heart" or some crap like that. I'm all for holding someone to account, but if you didn't give her what she needed to get there, then you have to bear some of the responsibility too.

  41. Anonymous says:

    R, I certainly wasn't referring to Athol's book in my previous comment about everything being the man's fault. That comment was directed towards His Needs, Her Needs. At the risk of sounding overly melodramatic, I took that book outside and burned it. I've never done that with any book before or since. I really despised it.

    Anon and Stargate Girl, since I don't have the book on hand to refer to (see above), I can't point out exactly what lead me to that impression. I vaguely remember something in the book where the author wonders why he is always apologising and his wife says something to the effect of, "Because everything is your fault" and he suddenly realised that this is true. It seemed very different to Athol's advice in that it seemed to absolve the wife of all responsibility in the marriage. Maybe I have the wrong idea; it's been a while since I read it.

  42. Anonymous says:

    Oh, and also, Stargate Girl, in regards to the manosphere being judgmental towards women, I would agree with you. However, many of these people have suffered at the hands of women—some of them enormously so—and society enables the women in wrongdoing. So it's not surprising to see the backlash. And they are fighting an uphill battle, which means they need to fight harder.

    But some guys have bad attitudes no matter how you look at it. No one's perfect. Of course, men are closer to being perfect. ;)

  43. To concur with the original reader the post is about, I dealt with similar issues. I had several sleepless nights where I simply lay awake raging about all the things you mention: wasted time/energy/youth, the wrongs suffered at the hands of my wife, the damaging lie of feminism, etc.

    But, then I realized that the negative thoughts were non-productive if I was to really make a difference in my life. So, I had to exercise thought control as the negative, anger-filled thoughts popped into my head. It's a skill that must be practiced and it's useful for all negativity you encounter whatever the realm. (A good read about an example of it here: )

    Again, like Athol said, if you are committed to your wife, *you* are the only one you can change. So change what you can, and excercise patience. You walked into this situation over a long period of time and it will take some time to undo.

    To comment to some of the other, slightly OT discussion: dudes wouldn't care if they worked harder (and they *will* work harder) if their SO worshipped the cock. It's that simple and one of the more obvious reasons nature made us the way it did. A man and woman together is a symbiotic relationship when done correctly where the output of both together is much more than either alone but somehow feminists thought 'equal' was better than, well, 'better'.


  44. Anonymous says:

    While the discussion of men's and women's relative contributions in a marriage is perfectly interesting, what has it to do with the comments quoted in the post?

    A couple of guys improved their lives by taking the Red Pill, learning to deal with their wives. Their wives are responding. What they now regret is not that they wasted time before taking the Red Pill, though. It's that even if they can manage a wife's responses successfully she's now something to be managed, i.e., not a wife at all: "I have to game my wife into loving me the way I think she should just love me anyway". Taking the Red Pill means accepting that your concerns are not her concerns, and dealing with it.

    Which is sad.

  45. Anonymous says:

    You're not working as hard as your husband. Being a SAHM is NOT a 24/7 job like some people claim it is – like many jobs, you might be "on call" 24/7 (though…so is your husband).

    Further, working 3 mornings a week obviously makes your hsuband the primary breadwinner – and with that comes STRESS.

    Actually, being a SAHM is a pretty easy part time gig. If you disagree…what's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear about a SAHD? If it's contempt, you've just answered your own question.

  46. Hey Stargate Girl…I didn't realize your kids were medically complex. My comment was off the mark.

    However…I know a LOT of SAHM's – probably the majority of the wives in my circle. They have pretty easy lives….either they have 6 hours/day of leisure time while the kids are at school, or, if they work, it's just a "hobby job" which is usually interesting and does not carry the stress of being the provider.

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