Daughters, Career Advice and the MILF Effect

Jack:  Athol, I’m curious what you will teach your daughters. Will you teach them today’s feminist line that they “can be anything they want”? This, to me, is a dangerous message. Yes, women can pursue their career and become uber-competitive, but there are tradeoffs. Women’s hypergamy being what it is, if they become gung-ho careerists they will simultaneously shrink their dating market and turn off the best (alpha) males who are not attracted to women of higher success then them. This is all well documented.
Its not easy to raise girls if you go against the dominant Leftist/Feminist cultural programming.
Athol:  We’re generally teaching them they can be anything they want to be, but I agree that you can’t be everything you want to be. We’re also conscious about offering them a leg-up and using our moderate ability to effect nepotism to advance them as much as possible career-wise. Both of our girls are very bright and I doubt they would be content at all with a SAHM lifestyle.
One daughter is actually quite turned on by the idea of fast tracking to her RN and being able to earn a good wage by the time she is 20, and have flexibility in work schedules and being able to work part time around her family needs and so on. So we can help make that happen for her.
One daughter is quite gifted and she has a standing offer of having her fiction writing and/or drawings turned into full fledged books with our help. No requirement to be published for all the world to see, even one copy to hold in her hands being acceptable. She’ll bite eventually lol.
I’m conscious of there being a fine line between pushing them in a certain direction and over riding what they might really want to do, and not offering them all that I could and having them turn out less than they could be. They are wonderfully good kids and I’m sure they will turn into wonderful women and the older they get the more interesting they become.
There are risks for women in advancing career at the expense of starting a family, and then finding out too late their use-by date has passed, but I don’t think that will be the case with our girls. The apple does not fall far from the tree, and lets face it, Jennifer is about as good as advertising gets for “this is what you’ll be married to in twenty years” for future boyfriends to take into consideration. Stable, loyal, sexy, fun, competent, healthy, charming, joyful. So I think they will have a high market value and plenty of options actively pursuing them.
I mean you gotta figure at some point the boyfriends are just going to go, “Your mom had sex with your dad HOW MUCH?!?!” and then look directly at Jennifer’s ass until their name is forcefully called…
 …and girls are going to get a +2 to their Sex Rank.
Something that I really learned with the passing of my father is how important family is, so I’m actually kinda looking forward to having sons-in-law to be honest.
Plus my girls will read everything I’ve written, so they’ll have a fairly deep understanding of relationships and be conscious of whats going on. They will make mistakes no doubt, but unlikely to make critical failures. So I’m not really worried about them… but I do worry about them, they are after all my daughters.
Jennifer:  Great… I feel like the display model in a store, though I guess that’s the way it really does work. It is important for them to know that they can be whatever they want to be, but that they have to make decisions about what to do at what point in their lives because no one can do it all at the same time…high powered career and big family and pro-level sports and yada yada yada. Yeah, and I feel old just having two teenagers, so let’s not skip ahead to be being the MOB just yet!

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Comments

  1. TrekShel says:

    Oh Jen,
    You are still quite young. You can't be old because I refuse to be old.

  2. Anonymous says:

    I've pointed it out before on HUS that China and India are absolutely full of high-earning, traditional-minded young betas just dying to find reliable wives abroad because they cannot mathematically find wives at home due to the massive gender imbalance. There are tens of millions of them, and their number will only grow. I suggest you tell your daughters to learn Hindi/Chinese and then send them off to some scholarship in Shanghai or something. Both of them could actually become citizens in rising great powers. What's not to like about that? And let's face it, the SMP/MMP in America won't be improving anytime soon, in fact it'll keep getting worse for men and women alike.

    "The apple does not fall far from the tree, and lets face it, Jennifer is about as good as advertising gets for "this is what you'll be married to in twenty years" for future boyfriends to take into consideration."

    Well, isn't that a bit far-fetched? As far as I can tell, 20something men normally aren't specifically looking for future spouses, and they aren't under the general assumption that young women turn out to be carbon copies of their mothers. The MMP is massively different now than 20-30 years ago. Generally speaking, young women are less and less likely to become competent wives, they are exposed to completely different influences etc.

    "So I think they will have a high market value and plenty of options actively pursuing them."

    …which makes it even less likely to find potential husbands they're attracted to. Hypergamy and all that. I'm sure I won't have to explain.

    Höllenhund

  3. Joanna says:

    I'm 21, and my male friends (same age) do pay a lot of attention to how their potential girfriends' moms look… if they aged badly, there's pretty much no chance in hell they are going to be in a long-term relationship with the girl. (I live in Europe though, maybe young men in the US have a bit more of a short-term perspective?) – And I think that was my first comment :-D

  4. mgwk says:

    Hollenhund wrote,

    "20something men normally aren't specifically looking for future spouses, and they aren't under the general assumption that young women turn out to be carbon copies of their mothers."

    Carbon copies — no. But my wife has pointed this out… and my 20something son (very high SMP value due to alpha/beta mix) is paying attention. So it partly depends on whether the girl has her sights set on a hookup, or a husband.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Maybe I just live in a more conservative part of the country, but here the SAHM lifestyle is not looked down upon. Most of the wives in my social circle are SAHM as well as intelligent and college educated. Maybe when the nest is empty they will re-enter the job market, but I would be fine with my daughter doing this.

  6. giantmoonfrog says:

    I checked out my mother-in-law's ass when I was dating my wife. There, I said it. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. I just wanted some idea of what I could expect. I didn't mean to like it, but I did. I remember thinking "Hmm, that'll do."

  7. Anonymous says:

    I have to say I was also disappointed. No woman is too bright to become a SAHM. Being a SAHM can be as challenging and as fulfilling as you can make it.

  8. Stargate Girl says:

    "Both of our girls are very bright and I doubt they would be content at all with a SAHM lifestyle."
    I
    Little offended at this. I think it's fantastic you have smart girls, but what does being brioght have to do with being content at being a SAHM?

    I'm college educated. I was basically an honors student. I'm bright. Generally articulate. I love being a stay at home Mom! I've spent the last 10 years being a SAHM. When I do work outside the home, it's while my kids are in school, or with their Aunt.

    I currently work mornings at a day care center. We have children there from the moment we open 7am, to the moment we close at 6pm. I know being a SAHM is not for everyone, and everyone needs to make their own choices, but honestly, some of those kids spend more time with us, their care providers, than their own families.

    I feel sad for familes sometimes. There's so many things that get missed when kids are in childcare for 11 hours a day. First steps. First words. Other developmental milestones.

    My mother was a SAHM. She was as whipsmart as they come. Woman could calculate sale prices faster than the registers could. To the penny. She raised 6 of us, over a large span of time. there is 25 years between eldest and myself.

    My Dad's honor society gave her a P.H.T :) Put husband through college. She was his support for 60 years.

    I have wonderful memories of my childhood spent with my Mom. The crafts we did. The home improvements. The naps on couch. I am what I am because she was a SAHM. I think I turned out pretty good. I think I'm a good Mom, and a Good Wife. Certainly not perfect, but pretty damn good.

    So, don't knock the SAHM lifestyle. while it may not be for you, and may not be for your girls, it's not to be sneered at. There are definite pluses. I hope when my kids grow up, they remember that Mom was home with them, and the things we did, and that when I'm gone, those memories can bring smiles to their faces. Just like memories of my Mom do for me.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Love the new ads! I was wondering when you would take advantage of the huge number of visitors you get to your blog. People have to understand that you bring a huge amount of value and up til now I've not seen an advertising. I think you should put even more up! You can make a ton of money that way. Especially with sponsored ads.

    Also great advice today too! My wife learned late in life (at 50) about how much the feminist trap is BS. She is still quite alpha, but now it's mostly at work and even then not as much as she used to be.

  10. Ian Ironwood says:

    To address the other issue, I think that Athol's girls won't have to have recourse to Asian boys, necessarily.

    In my generation (I'm 44) our dads (those who had them) gave us precious little advice about women and sex and marriage, and most of what they did give us was bad, cynical, or 50 years out of date. Let's face it, they were getting their collective asses handed to them in divorce court, and they didn't know what the hell to tell us. So we largely stumbled around the SMP without a thought in our heads beyond "How am I going to put this penis someplace comfortable?", no plan, no future, no Game.

    But now we have Game. I'm teaching my boys Game, teaching them the importance of being a masculine leader, how to talk to girls, how to treat women with respect, and generally their proper role in society as young men, then husbands, then fathers. Likewise I'm teaching my daughter that she should prepare for both a career and family, and I'm making her aware of the basics of the SMP.

    I know that might sound as overbearing, and I assure you I'm being subtle about it. But I am raising them with the expectation of providing me grandchildren as a filial duty, and impressing on them the importance of proper mate selection. I'm not raising them with the idea that divorce is "OK", or that marriage is something to be entered into lightly, or that it's easy at all. Indeed, I stress the hard work and dedication required to raise children in a family and I impress upon them the importance of developing their own characters so that they can go out and find the best possible mate they can . . . and then keep them.

    I don't care what they do for money, or what their education level ends up to be, or even if they demonstrate a lot of achievement. I do care that they grow up into intelligent adults of good character who will find mates as superlative as they will be.

    And before anyone asks, I've made it perfectly clear that while them ending up being Gay is all right in my book, sexual orientation doesn't excuse them from giving me grandchildren. If my son is gay, I want the best possible husband for him. I don't think that's really a likelihood at this point, but sexuality is a tricky thing.

    So don't despair of your girls' chances at finding a quality dude. They'll just have to compete a little to do it. And I mean real competition, not "who will go the farthest the soonest" — but to do that, we have to teach our boys what to value in a potential wife, and we have light-years to go on that yet.

  11. Ian Ironwood says:

    Oh, and another piece of advice to give to your daughters: they should add +3 to any guy's Sex Rank if he can prove he's a real Eagle Scout. I know a bunch of them, and I've noticed that when they marry they tend to stay married. And they're damned handy to have around the house.

    And I've passed on to my sons the piece of advice I got in my youth: you can help evaluate the quality and intelligence of a girl by the size of the dictionary on her shelf. Mrs. Ironwood came with an antique 1000 page onionskin masterpiece of the English language, a dictionary so large it had it's own stand. Maybe I'm just a word nerd, but I guess you could say she had me at "Aardvark".

  12. Anonymous says:

    When your daughter turns 18, would you be happy for her to star in porn movies, given that the participants "are very-well compensated for their work and the vast majority enjoy it tremendously."

  13. Doug1 says:

    Stargate Girl—

    So, don't knock the SAHM lifestyle. while it may not be for you, and may not be for your girls, it's not to be sneered at. There are definite pluses. I hope when my kids grow up, they remember that Mom was home with them, and the things we did, and that when I'm gone, those memories can bring smiles to their faces. Just like memories of my Mom do for me.

    My mother was a stay at home mother. Well eventually she did volunteer activities and ended up as president of the county’s leading private adoption agency.

    I thought she live the life of riley, pretty much. She took it all for granted pretty much. I’m sure it wasn’t when myself and my two brothers were infants, but once we were in all in school or preschool, yeah. I mean with all the modern appliances and conveniences, etc. Most middle class married people have washers and dryers, dishwashers, blenders, often food processors, and so on.

    It seems to me for a woman to not work when all her kids are in school is pretty lazy.

    As well if a stay at home divorces her husband, her chances of getting alimony go why up. I think alimony is indentured servitude for men, and utterly and completely unfair in this age of no fault divorces and divorce money settlements, with women filing for divorce 2.5 x as often as men, and in cases of the college educated with young children really being behind divorce something like 90% of the time according to many divorce lawyers. Why should a man continue to have to support an ex wife who’s not continuing to do anything for him in return???

  14. Doug1 says:

    Ian Ironwood

    And before anyone asks, I've made it perfectly clear that while them ending up being Gay is all right in my book

    It wouldn’t be perfectly alright in my book for daughters, since I think female sexuality while usually biased towards attraction to males (and in a small minority of cases biased the other way), is also significantly fluid, cultural and political. Most exclusive lesbians (as opposed to bi curious girls) are very significantly misandrous and leftists generally, which wouldn’t be ok with me whatsoever. If I had daughters I’d want grandkids and not adopted ones either.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Obviously your mother didn't do a good job raising you, but many women are great SAHMs even after their kids are in school all day. SAHMs get alimony because they put their careers on hold to focus on the family. This frees up the husband to focus more on his career, because he knows that kids and home life are taken care of. If the marriage falls apart then there's no reason that she shouldn't get alimony at least until she can get her career back on track.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Most of the SAHMs that I know are highly educated, intelligent women who married men who were also highly educated and intelligent. Those are the type of men who can usually afford a SAHM. Less educated and less intelligent men usually need their wives to work because they tend to earn less and need their wives to make up for their shortcomings. IME bright women are more likely to be SAHMs than less intelligent women. They don't have to put their children in daycare so they don't.

  17. Ian Ironwood says:

    If she had a vocation for it and actively wished to pursue it as a career, then after making sure she was fully-informed about the industry, good bad and ugly, I wouldn't try to stand in her way and I would do everything in my power to make her the success she wants to be. My goal is to see her happy, first and foremost. Unhappy descendants I can do without.

    Personally, I think that's a long-shot. She has no desire to be a cheerleader, for one thing. And that's one of the biggest commonalities among professional adult performers (the women). It's also a helluva lot of work, and my daughter tends to be lazy, so I doubt that she'd go that route.

    But I'm curious . . . why didn't you ask the same question about my two boys? It's early yet, but there's no reason to think that they wouldn't be interested — and suitably equipped — to go into the industry. Is my son's virtue not as important as my daughter's?

  18. Ian Ironwood says:

    The thing I find funniest about that is I live in the Lesbian Capitol of the Southeast — they're everywhere here, and I have literally dozens of lesbian friends. While several are indeed misandrous feminists, there's also a large segment of them who are blatantly misogynistic, too. Believe me, no one can be more misogynistic than a lesbian in the middle of a break-up.

    I also know plenty of gay people with biological children. "Just 'cause you build one shelf don't mean you're a carpenter" — from artificial insemination to a night of drunken curiosity to not realizing they were gay until they were married, there are plenty of gay people with biological children. While I would certainly accept an adopted child into the family, it had better be because my kids were infertile. And they'd better bring a note.

    Sexuality in general is more fluid today. We'll deal with it. If my kids end up experimenting with homosexuality, they wouldn't be the first nor the last. I'm not here to tell them who they should be, merely that they should be happy, true to themselves, give me grandkids and not be a douchebag. Everything else is entirely up to them. I'll do my best to influence them by example, but ultimately their fate is their own.

  19. Stargate Girl says:

    Doug1:

    Live the life of riley? My Mom was constantly on the go at home. She kept the house, did most of home repairs herself. We ripped out walls, insulated, re-sheet rocked. She built her own buffet in the dining room. My mother was not a sit down and be still woman. period.

    I don't sit on my ass when my kids aren't around. I am doing laundry, repair work, cleaning house, recruiting musicians for a volunteer orchestra, I go out and play, I drive kids to/from appts.

    My parents were married for 60 years. Only separated by death for 5 days. They were amazing role models.

    I intend to be with my husband til the day I die. I didn't marry him with the thought of " well, if we don't like each other, we'll get divorced"

    I volunteer in the schools. I am available any time our school nurses need to reach me.

    I am very blessed and lucky that we can afford for me to be a SAHM. It was a double blessing when our middle child was Dx'd with a life threatening condition. I am able to be with my kids when they are sick and care for them. I can take care of my husband when needed. I am available for my friends when they need help. I can get to my siblings when they need me. I would not be able to do these things if I wasn't a SAHM.

    So, yeah, if your Mom just sat on her ass all day then she was being lazy. Not all of us SAHM's are that way.

    I work just as hard as anyone else. I'm on call 24/7. i don't get renumeration, what I do get is a happy husband, happy and healthy children and a happy family life.

    I have plans to go back to school when my youngest is full time. I don"t have to, its just something I want to do.

    So, I won't assume all the men I see posting in the manosphere are Crazy woman haters, and you don't assume all SAHM's are lazy bums living the life of riley, whatever that is. Deal?

    BTW, I also work part-time out of the house. I definitely don't think I fit into your "lazy SAHM" profile.

  20. Z says:

    Lots to comment on …

    First, I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of hypergamy. Women want men who are equal or better than them in the areas that count for rearing great children. This can differ among different women: some are drawn to Strong Men, others to Men of Power and Influence, still others, like me, are drawn to Alpha Geeks. I'm not interested in your NFL All-Star, sister, and I doubt you found Steve Jobs at all interesting.

    Expecting women to dumb down to avoid hypergamy never works, any more than any other version of artificially lowering sex rank. "Honey, you'll never get married, you're too sexy. You should gain 40 pounds." Uh … no.

    SAHM and alimony … I was a SAHM for 18 years. I love the job — busy, with a variety of work, and time to volunteer. But it sucks after a divorce when you've lost the ability to get a job because you were out of the workforce for years. And alimony isn't what it used to be … I'm getting my fair share of the marital assets, but no alimony. Zero. The kids get child support, I got a little extra during the estrangement, but that's it. [And my ex is batshit crazy and abusive, and the courts are well aware of that. If I could soak him for all he had, I would. The last 10 years of my life were bad, the final 2 were a living hell.]

  21. Doug1 says:

    I’m able to focus on my career just fine without have a stay at home wife.

    I’d never marry again without a prenup that waives all alimony in all circumstances. The prenup would 1) waive all alimony under all circumstances (but not child support=also stealth alimony); 2) divide property as one does when splitting up after living together, according to who had title, who has possession of the account be it a retirement, securities, or bank account, etc., who was signatory to the debt, who has possession, or who earned the money to buy it, unless it was clearly a gift, EXCEPT 3) for the principal residence which if acquired during the marriage would be held in joint title along with the mortgage and hence the equity in it would be split equally in the event of a divorce.

    I would not want nor expect a wife to remain a stay at home mother after the children are in preschool, at any rate.

  22. Anonymous says:

    A woman who is a SAHM is risking a lot more financially than her husband is, despite all of the crying about alimony and child support.

  23. Anonymous says:

    I think someone's bitter about the past..

  24. Anonymous says:

    Let's not do that tired old Mommy Wars thing okay? Some SAHMS are exactly as you say, some are "Jerry Springer people" – there are no absolutes in this.

    (Being Athol spends considerable time on marriage forums and dealing with people's marital problems, he probably hears more about the bad SAHMS rather than the good SAHMS.)

  25. Meggerz says:

    So, I guess I should avoid introducing men to my obese mother? She's still rocking the SAHM lifestyle, with no kids in the house for over four years. No PTA or volunteer work either.

    That being said, my parents are happily married – they're affectionate, and playful, and share everything – but their sex ranks are miles apart. My father still runs marathons and is handsome, charming, and hard working, and obviously has a strong sense of commitment. No joke, my girl friends openly discuss their crushes on my father.

    Is this just marriage 1.0 at work?

    I'm glad for my parents' example, but a little frustrated that I am nowhere near as hot as my mother was when she was ten years older than me, but that's probably why she landed my father in her thirties, with a kid in tow from her first marriage.

  26. Athol Kay says:

    Sigh…

    I've said in the past that SAHMs can't be couch potato soap opera watching early retirement layabouts. They have to be SAHMs + "something". What that something is I don't care, just as long as it's productive effort of some kind.

    If you have a part-time job, that's +something, so you're not in my crosshairs.

    I actually said… One daughter is actually quite turned on by the idea of fast tracking to her RN and being able to earn a good wage by the time she is 20, and have flexibility in work schedules and being able to work part time around her family needs and so on.

    If you don't see the value of a (potential) wife that can earn $500 a week doing 16 hours of part-time work by the time she is 20, you just aren't listening to what I'm saying.

  27. Doug1 says:

    I didn't have to pay alimony, but I did have to divide assets equally in NY,which is an equitable distribution state. Given that I made a ton more money, she rarely cooked for me, I paid for a housekeeper once a week, and so on, I not only supported her by and large for the first half of our six year marriage but also gave her money to help her arty business get off the ground, and did free legal and management work for it, I thought that was mondo unfair.

    And yeah, I'd never marry again without the kind of prenup I recommend, and I'm all over the sphere advising men, who listen, the same thing.

    Never had a single person try to argue with me as to why what I advise is unfair. Just some womennnz try to take pot shots around "bitter".

    Hey, I've been living with my beautiful much younger raven haired northern italian girl for five years. We have an occasional open relationship, around mff threesomes. Works for me.

  28. Doug1 says:

    Abusive is throw around like popcorn or rice at a wedding by American women in this cultural environment, so I never believe them without extensive detail, and even then I'm not so sure.

  29. Mac says:

    If you had to do it all again, Athol, would you have stayed home with your kids? I hope so. And I hope that women who marry men expect them to be Mr Equal just like you are. That couple might be M/F C/FO but it is in the awareness of the dangers of cultural expectations of men and women where your site can make a difference.

    Equality is work, and pop culture is evil. Couples benefit from being aware of the triggers that make them find each other sexy — they should then follow through on them whatever they are. Awareness is the thing I like most about your site. You put it out there. I may not agree with what you recommend with the information but you are clear, honest and aim for married couples having more good sex. What's not to like?

    What I'll tell and show my son is that a woman you have to buy into marriage with a diamond has certain other costs in terms of social compliance (dentist? wtf? /why did she care?/) and I'll tell and show my daughter that if she wants an equal relationship with a man that she cannot drop on him these social expectations randomly and expect that to be fair (and ideally she will never, ever buy into the diamond cartel bullshit either).

    This is key: "they can be anything they want to be, but I agree that you can't be everything you want to be. "

    That's true for everyone in that compromises have to be made by men and women. Choices have consequences. If a girl likes the Alpha boys, being sexy will be more important than, say, being smart. Which is just tragic and a path I hope my daughter does not go down. The ideal is that she is lean [which is healthy, I might add], looks good and falls in love with a geek who is also lean and looks good. Worked for me. :)

    Despite the comments I tend to leave here, I would absolutely explain to my son that girls will say one thing and often (but not always!) act a completely different way. He can understand that and aim for a girl who either is aware of this too or does not show such a large disconnect.

  30. Athol Kay says:

    If you had to do it all again, Athol, would you have stayed home with your kids? I hope so.

    If had to do it all again so much would have been different. I would have worked as hard as I am now, much earlier in my life. I don't believe the situation would have existed where I needed to do that.

    It's been my dogged attempts to create equality that made everything harder and worse for us as a couple. I shouldn't have bothered with it and just taken the lead.

    Depending how far the Hot Tub Time Machine sends me back, the less and less likely it would be that I ever even meet Jennifer anyway.

    It's been a long and winding road. It's nice to be where we are now, but very hard going turning it all around.

  31. Doug1 says:

    Does anyone have a handle on why autism has gone up so very much in the last few decades?

    The theory that it's due to vaccinations seems to be thoroughly disproven by epidemiological type medical studies.

    I've tried googling this but haven't gotten anything very illuminating that way.

    One theory is that more and more women having a first child later in their 30s or later may be a strong factor. I haven't seen this disproven anyway, but not proven either.

  32. Athol Kay says:

    The Wikipedia page is about the best starting point.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#Epidemiology

    If someone finds the answer, you can bet it will be national news.

  33. Stargate Girl says:

    yeah, the equal distribution definitely screwed you. :(

  34. Anonymous says:

    Weird that the original reader seems to be pushing Athol to not send his girls to college or encourage them to have careers as this would make potential mates turned off.

    Like seeks like. College educated guys seek college educated girls. Career driven men have a mutual admiration for successful career women, who share the same values of hard work.

    Only an insecure boy wants a SAHM vacuuming and dusting his house so that he can come home and throw his weight around.

    –Jaz71

  35. Anonymous says:

    So you have never read a single one of the "game" blogs then?

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