Glorified Cave Art For The SAHM Issue

I’ve written several posts in recent days about the potential pitfalls of the SAHM option. Because so many people aren’t actually reading what I’m writing and are leaving angry comments on what they think I might have written, I’ve been reduced to using my glorified cave art skills to communicate.
And yes, you can flip everything around for SAHDs as well.
And yes, these are broad strokes of the brush.
And to be explicitly clear – calling my own daughters “bright” isn’t the same as calling you “stupid”. Get the hell over yourself if you’re offended by a father praising his own daughters.
All I’m saying is having a stay at home parent has major potential downsides that are NEVER talked about until it’s too late and someone is all but destroyed.
I’m trying to help you. 

Related posts:

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  2. Don’t Cater Endlessly to a SAHM The back story to this one is that the SAHM is...
  3. Repeat UTI Issue (You’re Welcome Baby) Athol, I found your website a while back and it...

Comments

  1. Sweet As says:

    I feel helped. Does that help?

    While we are not perfect, our marriage is definitely "on the mend." I feel like we are doing really well, and we are much happier. I think it's been a year or so since I started reading your blog. So a lot of good things happen in a year.

    I also feel edified. What I like about your blog is that it's ok for me (a woman) to have a brain and use it. Your Captain/First Mate description was great for us. The first mate is educated, capable, and strong. No one would want someone who isn't strong in that position, because if the captain is otherwise engaged, then what? Seriously, you need someone who can make those kinds of decisions (I'm thinking, in particular, about the beginning of the new star trek relaunch movie!).

  2. Anacaona says:

    I always feel sorry when you have to "explanatory posts" so many people looking for reasons to hate on you when all you want to do is help, make a few bucks down the line to, but by helping. Really sad signs of our times.

  3. Gwen says:

    I haven't been reading the sahm posts comments, since there is a point where disagreement is debate and is mentally stimulating, but I find people waxing morally indignant simply boring. I think I read like five comments and got bored with them.

    Sooo, possibly I am merely making a point that has been beaten to death already, HOWEVER… Our society is such that being a sahm is not really a default position anymore. Usually, it seems, it's a decision made for a specific reason, by people who are pretty committed to the lifestyle. It's not the norm these days, and anytime you get people going against the flow, they've probably got a reason why, something they feel strongly enough about to buck the norm. Which means you can argue logically all you want – you're not going to change their minds, not with logic. You have to understand why they're acting the way they are, and base your argument on their foundation reasoning.

    I'm a sahm. (The good kind, let me point out. I sew, garden, cook from scratch, can and preserve, volunteer in the kid's schools, and save us lots of money. I only have bonbons on alternate Tuesdays.) For us, it's a religious decision. We talked it over before we got married. Both of us were clear that this was what we were committing to. We absolutely believe this is What God Wants. And that might sound stupid to everyone else reading this, but I don't care, because I believe so passionately in what we're doing, and so does my husband. And that overrides the very logical reasons you have pointed out, Athol, against this decision. Because, at its foundations, ours is not a logical decision (although I can argue the benefits of it all day.) It's a moral decision, and the only way we would ever change our decision is if someone were to convince us that we were mistaken in What God Wants.

    Which means that I know darn well that I have placed myself in a very dangerous financial situation. I know I'm not going to have the opportunity to retire, and that I'll be a little old lady working for minimum wage someday. I know that my husband could walk away and leave me in a really rotten situation. Nevertheless. I'm willing to pay that price, and take that chance, because I believe in I'm doing is The Right Thing and worth all sorts of personal sacrifice.

    All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I think that you, Athol, have made the classic mistake of bringing a knife (logic) to a gun (emotion) fight. :)

  4. Mama Fish says:

    Hahaha! *snap* Gwen – awesome comment! Our situation is the same except we are not Christian. It has not come without costs and it took me a while to get my head around being financially dependent on my husband (there are no alimony laws here) but we also believe this investment in our children, our family, is The Right Thing To Do. This IS my career. Gwen, I wish you every happiness with your journey – we are definitely enjoying ours.

    I didn't bother to comment on the last thread, the vibe was a bit off-putting. I appreciate Athol's argument, but too often judgement is couched in the language of concern. I would like to see some data on the specific moral 'hazardousness' of the SAHM/D cf the WOHM/D. When you have a vocal, self-selected group it can be easy to give too much credence to their point. I think a lot of the anger from SAHMs needs to be considered in the light of the continued denigration from feminists and economic rationalists of (what I consider to be) the most important job most of us will ever do. When the feminist-haters are hating on SAHMs too, the hackles come up! LOL

    I found one of the comments about fat SAHM butts very hurtful when I think that judgement could be directed at my neighbour whose health has declined with the extreme care (you cannot imagine) her two seemingly normal children require. She is a wreck. My Bible knowledge is limited but I do remember something about not judging lest we be judged, and despite not being Christian, I think it's a good one to remember.

  5. Anonymous says:

    The problem with athols last post was that his logic was deeply flawed. There were also some annoying spelling and grammatical errors, but the "should be obvious to a child," flaws in his logic made it seem that he was just looking to bash SAHMs instead of help.

    Btw, I have a hard time believing that writing these blog posts takes longer than 10 minutes. If his wife is working more than full time and doing most of the housework then she's clearly getting ripped off. He's probably spending the rest of the time watching porn or top gear reruns, while she struggles to dig them out of the financial hole he caused. I don't see how pimping
    your sex life for change as ever being particularly profitable.

  6. John says:

    Logical flaws such as?

    When complaining about grammar and spelling issues it's a good idea to proofread your own posts.

  7. Anonymous says:

    I typed my post on my phone, with my thumbs, while standing in line at the grocery store. If he calls himself a writer and this blog is part of the business that he claims to work so hard on, then he should do quite a bit better.

  8. Anonymous says:

    The flaws in his logic were addressed by a few posters in the comment section of the moral hazard post. Go have a look. I'm not retypjng from here.

  9. Anonymous says:

    I think Athol makes some good points. Some things to consider. However, for me this starts to get far away from the core value of his blog. I just don't find it very interesting to hear people argue over this issue.

    I am a huge fan. But this topic makes me tune out.

  10. Anonymous says:

    Also a huge fan. Athol with all due respect for being an atheist, you seem almost religious about this topic. I like your passion, but sometimes you start to get defensive with people who disagree.

    Like you say not everything works for everybody. Personally, I think whether or not couples choose SAHM has little to do with the benefits of MMSL. You have fans and followers in both camps to be sure. Why alienate half of your fans?

  11. Lainey says:

    I can see that. We all have different issues, needs, and hot buttons. I know that the last time there was a SAHM thread I left for awhile.

  12. Lainey says:

    Athol, if you are going to make the big bucks and reach as many people as possible with your message then you are going to have people disagreeing with you. That is a given.

    This is a controversial topic. The mainstream experts and media are going to have a field day with your book.

    If people disagreeing with your here bothers you I cannot imagine how you will feel when it is all over tv and internet. Isn't your goal to become mainstream?

  13. Ponyboy says:

    Hi Annon….

    If everything was so flawed, and you feel so strongly to judge Athol and Jennifer the way you have in your comment, my simple question to you is this;

    Why do you come to his website?

  14. Anonymous says:

    I didn't say that everything is flawed. I said that his logic in the SAHM moral hazard post was flawed. I come here because watching someone pimp their private life for a few dollars is highly entertaining. Its same reason that people pay attention to the kardashions. Of course they have more money and slightly less dignity, but I'm sure that you get the point.

  15. Anonymous says:

    I believe the gist of the problem lies in this statement from Athol in the first SAHM post: "Both of our girls are very bright and I doubt they would be content at all with a SAHM lifestyle."

    Many people are going to read that as "bright women don't become SAHMS." Actually, it comes across as something a "feminist" would have said 30-40 years ago when the push was on to get women out of the home and into the "wonderful" world of careers. So, naturally, it got some intense heat. Probably, it's just a case of too much to do, getting a post done, and not enough hours in the day.

    Relax, SAHMS, if the shoe doesn't fit you, throw it away. It's just a blog, after all.

  16. Ponyboy says:

    Now disagreements on topics are all good, good discussion can typically ensue. But the SAHM issue is always a hot button issue because I find typically, the SAHM feels like society in general doesn't respect the work that they do.

    But you know what? Like it or not, that's reality.

    If society respected the work you do then as a society we would decide to have social assitance or programs for SAH parents to encourage people to stay home and raise their kids full time. I'm not saying that the work SAHM do isn't good, my wife is at home with our two young boys and she works harder and longer than me, I can see that. But society doesn't reward her for being there. Society rewards people who work outside the house (me).

    Compare maternity leave for the Unites States and for Canada. Canadians get government assistance and a job to return to for a full year. Americans get 90 days. So it's clear Canadian society puts more value on a parent staying home for the first year of the baby's life than the US society. From a sociological perspective, that is the decision each society has made. I'm not going to do the research, but I would guess there are countries who have social assistance for the SAHM for longer than a year to encourage them to stay home as they see that the work the SAHM does for the children in their society as beneficial.

    All Athol is doing is taking the reality of the SAH choice and showing the potential pitfalls. I didn't see any judgement on his part as to whether or not he thought it was a good idea or not.

  17. Ponyboy says:

    Good point, I missed that. I would agree with your comment.

  18. Anonymous says:

    I wonder if he'll ever post about the pitfalls of having a wife who has to work to support the family. One of the reasons that his posts about SAHMs are so laughable is because it wasn't an option for him. He needs his wife's money to survive. He wasn't weighing the pros and cons of the sahm vs working mom situation (and there are plenty of pros and cons for both) he was poo pooing the option that he's not man enough to afford with flawed logic and snarky comments about how bright women wouldn't be interested.

  19. Anonymous says:

    Athol it seems that you are just trying to be a good parent and protect and encourage your daughters as to what seems to be modern marriage and law. You have come up with your solution and what that means in directing and protecting your daughters. However, I disagree with a few areas brought up.

    After working full time and trying to manage home life and be a sex kitten to my husband it wore me out (instead of my husband wearing me out in the fun way). We tried different things to improve the situation such as everyone helping at home as much as possible (though my children were not always able to do what we as adults were capable of), lowering housekeeping standards,me taking a nap after work and other efforts. With our busy after work and school life and a family a bit larger than average it was still not working out very well.

    My husband decided to see if we could rework our budget so that I could be at home full time,bless his heart. It has been three years now and my home is well run,our nutrition is better, I have more time to find ways to be thriftier. Bonus plus is that I have more energy to be friskier and have less of a to do list running around in my head at the end of our day trying to barge its way into our bedroom activity. My husband likes it too that I can take care of certain things on his behalf as needed since I am not totally tied to a job schedule outside the home. It was a lot easier to work out a vacation time and some days off because we didn't have to coordinate two work place schedules. And even though my children are not real young they seem to need my direction,listening ear and simply time,lots of time that can be parceled out more easily throughout the day then when I was wiped out and trying to take care of things in the evening or maybe weekends.

    We began home schooling this year and became more careful about being involved in too many after school activities and hobbies. This made our home life busy but flexible.

    Being a SAHM may have the risks inherent in current divorce but we all take risks. Getting married,having children,choosing careers may carry rewards,responsibilities and risks. My husband seems happier since I came home for a lot of the reasons listed above (pipe,slippers,a back rub or BJ,darling?) and hopefully this makes him more attached to me and our family and the comforts of home.

    Anyway, it just seems like being a SAHM left me feeling healthier in many ways. We have less income but it feels like we are having fun again and savoring life. There is more time for life even when there are extra busy times or illness or holidays.

    It's important to thank your husband for shouldering the job and work that use to be divided up. I like to jot down my day's activities and post it on the refrigerator so that he can get an idea of what I do daily. He recently thanked me for being productive at home and making him see that our decision was a good one not just for me or the children or the housework but for him.

    I will stick my neck out and say that I don't think encouraging young women to become a SAHM is a high risk venture entirely. It has probably reduced our divorce risk because we were able to have the time to do the pleasant things that add to married life (and Athol you gave us more ideas to try). My career was only moderately lucrative but being a SAHM was a big payoff. And no my butt has not become huge from sitting around nor has my mind failed me (am well read,informed and can still carry on a decent conversation).

  20. 446 says:

    "he was poo pooing the option that he's not man enough to afford"

    Serious shaming language. (ad hominem attack) People should be called out whenever they use this.

    Seriously, you can't critique flaws in logic when you are using the big ones yourself.

  21. 446 says:

    What is the origin of the Moral Hazard for a SAHM?

    I believe part of it is a selection bias. Athol does lots of research on sexual dysfunction in monogamous couples. Research on this topic is likely to yield a percentage of exemplars of BAD SAHMs disproportionate to the total number. (if you hang out on enough street corners, you're going to see whores)

    SAHMs and their spouses with happy, functional marriages don't wind up posting on divorce busters, talk about marriage, NMMNG, etc. etc. The SAHMs that do go bad have LOTS of opportunity to be bad and do so in very creative ways for very extended periods of time. Their entitlement monkeys and rationalization hampsters dance a whil-a-gig of destruction on the grave of the family unit beneath a graven image of the golden uterus.

    The numbers show that most women meet their affair partners at work. More women in the workforce means more opportunities for affairs; however, that process is fraught with peril to the income and future income of both affair partners. There are built-in checks and corrections for sexual relationships in most working relationships. (paging HR) That doesn't exist with a SAHM.

    The lack of structure and accountability in a SAHM's day allow a bad SAHM to deny, explain, evade, rationalize and gaslight away large numbers of BIG RED FLAGS.

    (Analogy ahead: we don't want to hear your factory stories.) If a line worker is stealing or loafing, they get caught pretty quickly because of the structured environment. If the CEO or MotB is stealing or loafing, it takes longer to catch them and they create more havok becuase of the lack of structure and lack of instant accountability of their position.

    Summary: The moral hazard of a working wife is likely greater than that of SAHM; however, the enforcement of the issues is shared with the employer. With a SAHM, enforcement of consequences lies completely within the family unit to a likely highly betaized male.

    Your Mileage May Vary

  22. Anonymous says:

    Yes, I can and did. If you need to, feel free to replace "not man enough to afford" with "cannot afford." The flaws in athol's logic remain either way.

  23. Anonymous says:

    Athol,love your blog and this is an interesting set of essays and comments from people on this topic.

    A difficulty I am seeing with women on becoming SAHM is the lack of preparation to do so. The actual home making tasks and supplementary domestic arts used to be passed down from grandmother and mother to daughter. It is so much harder to start from scratch learning how to manage on one income, knowing what to do when to keep things running smoothly, to mend something or even the simplest cooking or pantry stockpiling.

    The young women I talk to and see commenting on various womens blogs know how to work at a job,dress for a date, and maybe exercise or eat very simply. They find things a bit shocking when they marry and realize that sex and romance alone is not enough to sustain being a wife and mother.

    This is not a criticism of theses women as I was one of them. I worked and went to college for many years then worked and lived the single life for many more. After marrying my dear husband he was quite patient and accepting of whatever I would like for him to do or to eat or to put up with things being never done around the house. He helped when he could but we both worked. Our place became a drop off point much like our single days–busy,busy,busy. I got pregnant (we wanted this) and for various reasons I became a SAHM. I found that it took me a long time,a lot of reading,and frustration to make a house a home and that doing this on top of being a new mother was really hard. The other young women I knew who had more upbringing and example made the transition a lot more smoothly. If going back to work came in to the picture at any time it seemed to really complicate things even more.

    It just seems like when you invest a lot of time in college and career or jobs it is no wonder women aren't always very good a being a SAHM or even seeing value in it. After several generations of post World War II working women no one remembers what it is like to have a house fully run by a woman and what that looks like and smells like and appears like and all the niceties that it brings for everyone in the house.

    Guess there are women that are lazy and faithless in the task of being SAHM but maybe they didn't have a very good example of how to make it great and worth it. There are a lot of men that have never seen it either and so perhaps disdain what they haven't experienced.

    There are women that very much want to "come home" but their husband's have gotten used to the extra income or he fears what his relatives or coworkers may say. (And there are men that start working in or near home at their own employments so that they can be more at home which may be their way of "coming home".

    This may be argued with but I wonder if women have quite the stamina to do it all any more then men do. Statistics are showing that women are coming home to be SAHM more and more. They have tried the college to career circuit and with husband,home and family now in their life they find trying to balance it all leads to too much stress that in turn spills over to their marriages (too tired for sex??? snapping at hubby?? expecting too much from him when you are both spread too thin???).

  24. Anonymous says:

    A sahm is risking more when she has an affair than a working woman. A working woman isn't likely to lose her job because she had an affair. Hr rarely has cause to get involved in such matters.

  25. Anonymous says:

    Huh?? So women should nay must be shuffled off to work every day and be around men they may be attracted to 8-10 hours a day (not their spouses) and they need to be at work so that their urges can be slapped down by their bosses (hopefully they aren't attracted to him) or the threat of job loss??

    Huh?? If a woman is a slut she can be a slut anywhere at home or on the job. I have seen a lot more of this crap happening in places where I worked and it happened with my first marriage.
    My husband and someone elses wife. Ruined two marriages and by the way don't count on work rules slapping this stuff down.

    I've been a SAHW and a SAHM for quite awhile now and it would be very rare to find some one running around and creating their own soap opera.
    We're all too busy and do not have hunky pool boys or hunky maintenance guys and the SAHD are too girly for us (except that its a good thing Athol wasn't handy when he was a SAHD) and etc You all have been watching too many reality shows about housewives.

  26. Anonymous says:

    I've long felt that Athol fits his data to the model, rather than constructing the model from ALL of the data. That's why a lot of what would otherwise be called "normal" people come here and get shot to pieces or run for the hills screaming. Athol's model just ain't built on their reality, experiences, beliefs, expectations and outcomes.

  27. Doug1 says:

    I know that my husband could walk away and leave me in a really rotten situation.

    Really that all depends on whether your state has lifetime alimony after long marriages, as California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Tennessee, perhaps Connecticut and some other states do. In probably most states alimony is only for a few years, or is heavily up to the family court judge, who will tend to grant it far more to SAHM's than other ex wives. In some states alimony unlike the rest of divorce depends on whether the husband was clearly at fault or not.

    [Why does blogger but about nowhere else hate on blockquote so much??]

  28. Anonymous says:

    I'm not at all offended by you calling your daughters "bright" but surely you see how the rest of the statement is insulting to SAHMs. Perhaps you didn't mean for it to be an insult, but it is.

    Basically, you don't care much for the SAHM lifestyle, which is fine. And you have made it clear about the downfalls. For many of us it works well. I think you could have made your point without generating so much polarity, but perhaps you like the increased traffic on your blog.

    It would be interesting to see which lifestyle provides the best sex life. . .

  29. Z says:

    Uh … Massachusetts is backing away from lifetime alimony — or 20 years is no longer considered a long marriage.

    I also know Californian and New Jersey women who get child support only.

  30. Sweet As says:

    I think that this is a great statement, Gwen, but I want to point out one *advantage* to your situation that people overlook, but that can also be done in dual-working households.

    Living on one income is absolutely advantageous should something happen to the working member.

    There's a great book called The Two Income Trap that explains why having your fixed costs on two incomes can lead to financial ruin, whereas having all of your fixed costs covered on one income allows the possibility to survive the lean times.

    First, you are already thrifty and capable of living in a thrifty way (this seems to be common when families live on a single income). Second, should something happen to the working-person's job (or health or whatever), the "non-working" person can likely find temporary work, or both can find temporary work to cover the costs until the situation improves.

    After reading this book, my DH and I decided to get out of the 'two income trap" and get onto one income. My income became supplemental, and went into savings.

    When we decided to move (and I'd decided to work, and I believe that it is totally cool to SAHM for any number of logical or non-logical reasons), it was this savings that allows us to start the business. Now, we live on the income from the business, and DH's work is supplemental. We still live on one income. And frugally.

    It's a total advantage — but this presupposes everything like "you will stay married" and so on.

  31. Doug1 says:

    Most states that have lifetime alimony don’t have the man pay it while he’s paying child support=also stealth alimony. Basically because that’s already a huge part of a man’s after tax income. There’s only so much he can bear, and American divorce law tends to pretty much max that out. Child support in most states is typically 20-23% for one kid, and 25-28% for two, but those are percentages of his BEFORE tax income in all states I’ve looked into it, except Texas, where 20% and 25% are applied to after tax income. For strongly earning men in high tax states that can approach 50% of his after tax income for two kids – which is huge.

    In California though in marriages of 10 years or more women do get lifetime alimony (or until they remarry or cohabit for six months or more) including when the ex husband is also paying child support, at least potentially. Which is incredibly unfair in this day and age. California has some judge discretion in most counties but they tend to apply the following formula: A man pays spousal support equal to 40% of his after tax income less any child support he’s paying and less half of her after tax income. So if he’s just got one kid and she’s been a SAHM, he’ll be paying alimony on top of child support=also stealth alimony. Why any man would marry in California (and elsewhere for that matter, but especially in California) without first requiring that she sign a prenup waiving all alimony under all circumstances is beyond me.

    In this no fault divorce age when women initiate divorce 2.5x as often as men in all marriages, and are the ones wanting it as much as 90% of the time in college educated couples with young children, it’s nuts to marry without a prenup that waives alimony. In 2007, 96% of alimony was paid by men to women. Why on earth should a man have to go on having lifetime financial obligations to his ex wife when she’s no longer doing anything for him in return, at a time when women can, depending on their individual abilities, drives and preferences, work at all levels of the workforce if they wish to?? Alimony in this day and feminist culture is simply deeply unfair to men.

  32. Anonymous says:

    Obviously no one was offended by him praising his daughters. If he cant even figure out why people were offended by his comment then he damn sure shouldn't be giving relationship advice.

    Let me help him understand. My sons are really bright and masculine, so I doubt that they'd be satisfied with a nursing career. They will probably want to be doctors like their father.

  33. Sweet As says:

    I think that, largely, it's not that people do not respect the work that SAHMs do, it's that the work that they do is invisible. If she's doing a good job (and most are), you don't even notice it.

    I'll give an example of similar "invisible" work. While in DK on vacation, we went to an art museum. There, they had a display of this one woman's life work. She was a weaver. She made all kinds of unique textiles.

    These textiles are the curtains in many UN buildings. One fabric was used in a children's hospital. Another fabric was used in a local cathedral. Another in the royal palace. So, her work was very "important" in the world of textiles, and when looking at the swatches and reading about her creative process, it was "holy moley! amazing! skill! art! i'm blown away!"

    But, I'd been to that church, and hadn't thought twice about the textiles. I'd been to that palace, and hadn't looked at the curtains. I've even been to several other buildings in NYC where her textiles are hung en masse, and never even noticed.

    So, there was her life's work, her creative effort, the work of her hands on the looms, and it was entirely *invisible* until someone pointed it out.

    I remember sitting on the floor in the museum and weeping.

    I was moved.

    As a mother and a wife, part of my work is housekeeping. I cook and I clean. I declutter. I plan and I organize and I strategize so that our schedules and our home runs smoothly. I do the herbalism required seasonally to keep us entirely healthy.

    The only time anyone notices this work, or says "good work" or "thank you" is when my son gets sick "why is he sick!? didn't you do your job?" or when the laundry isn't folded "what did you do all day?!"

    The reality is, the work is invisible. People — when they think about it or observe it — DO respect that work. BUT, they often don't see it, just as I didn't see the tiny threads of cellophane woven into the wool and flax, hand dyed by that woman, made into curtains in the UN building. I just saw a background, a jumping point. The importance of the space was what was happening within it — largely the work of men — and not the space itself.

    Housekeeping and mothering and wife-ing is often a lot of space creating — we create a space where something happens, where life is happening. That takes work and effort and planning. But when it is good, it is invisible, absolutely invisible.

    And, in my business, I do much of the same. We create a space in which people can come and do "their work" and growth. I vacuum the space daily, and dust it, and make sure the plants are healthy and the air is clean and the equipment is available and in repair, and so on and so forth. I create the space, and in that space, something happens.

    But no one realizes that that is happening at all. THey shouldn't. It should seem "as it should be."

    So, people DO respect it, but it's often just invisible. As it should be.

  34. Anonymous says:

    I can't even figure out the cave art… I'm really screwed!

  35. Anonymous says:

    "Uh … Massachusetts is backing away from lifetime alimony"

    As is Tennessee…

    http://www.mensrights.com/index.php/Articles/Tennessee-Supreme-Court-Rules-Against-Lifetime-Alimony.html

  36. Anonymous says:

    Wouldn't working wives be more susceptible to dealing with alpha/higher sex rank males on a day in/day out basis (thereby building comfort and familiarity) than SAHMs?

    In my family, the only person that has cheated on their spouse was my sister in law – a nurse – who cheated with one of her co-workers (a doctor, natch).

    Conversely, my SAH wife mostly interacts with other SAHMs. The most alpha guy she deals with when I'm not around was the dude who sprays for bugs and not-so-subtly checked out her rack. (We terminated Terminix soon afterwards).

    All anecdotal, I know, but that's really all we have to go on without stats to prove the point either way – unless it was addressed in a previous post and I simply missed it.

  37. Anonymous says:

    "And even though my children are not real young they seem to need my direction,listening ear and simply time,lots of time that can be parceled out more easily throughout the day then when I was wiped out and trying to take care of things in the evening or maybe weekends." This is a good point. As children get older, they still need lots of time and attention, often at inconvenient times. It's much easier if one parent is at home or has a more flexible or part-time work schedule. I also agree that this kind of schedule makes regular, fun sex much more likely. A wife who is ta home or works part-time can manage her schedule in such a way that she still has some energy at the end of the day. A wife who is at the office 40-50 hours a week has a harder time doing that.

  38. Anonymous says:

    It appears that the "doctor" has a lot of time and excess energy on his hands, and a chip on his shoulder.

  39. mgwk says:

    Anonymous said (@ 8:54 AM) –

    "I come here because watching someone pimp their private life for a few dollars is highly entertaining. Its same reason that people pay attention to the kardashions."

    Anonymous, you have a way with words (and you sure do write a lot of comments). Reading someone you don't respect, hey that's fine, whatever works. Athol's good about wearing his big boy pants, this'll blow over, and I look forward to more insightful posts, and thoughtful commentary.

  40. Anonymous says:

    That was amazingly eloquent. Thank you.

  41. Doug1 says:

    I'm against any alimony period.

    If she's got minor children she'll be getting child support=also stealth alimony.

    If she doesn't have children, or their adults, what on earth is her excuse for not having a job.

    None that's credible to me.

    Why on earth does a man owe his ex-wife continuing financial support in this day and feminist age when women can work at any level of the workforce, depending on her individual talents, drives and preferences, when she's no longer doing anything, nothing, nada, for him in return, especially since marriage is no longer nearly always permanent, but instead dissolvable without fault at a woman's whim? It usually is women who want to dissolve marriages in America these days.

    I'd never remarry without a prenup waiving all alimony under all circumstances, period, end of story, and I think any man that doesn't agree is an idiot or a simpering mangina.

    I challenge any man to argue this point.

  42. Anonymous says:

    A risk to reward comparison is required for any choice in life. An informed choice therefore cannot be made without knowing what the benefits AND risks of that choice are. Athol's post is simply pointing out the risk of one of the spouses being a Stay At Home Parent. Society currently does a great job of extolling the benefits, as seen by all of the commenters ignoring the risk message in favour of advocating for their own SAHM lifestyle choices. Most don't seem to have a problem with him extolling the virtues of a SAHM; they just want to tell everyone else to ignore the risks.

    Each of us needs all the facts in order to determine the risk/reward ratio for ourselves. I resent those that want to take my choice from my by hiding the risks. Will any of you parents seriously advocate that your sons blindly jump into a SAHM arrangement without warning them of the risks involved? How will you then feel if their wives become bored and unfulfilled and divorce them because they are "missing out and need to be independent"? How will you feel after knowingly withholding knowledge that they could have used to prevent that? Couple those risks with the evidence that society and media in general are promoting female empowerment via divorce as shown by dalrock.wordpress.com . Good luck in dealing with the resentment from your children when they find out that you lied to them (even if only by omission).

    Most of the commenters are busy defending their choice to be a SAHM. Their reward for the risk has been worth it. Maybe they were lucky enough to go into with their eyes open and therefore were able to make an informed choice. That is great for them but their knowledge didn't help my ex and I. Athol is trying to help the people that DON'T have their eyes open and are being lied to by society. If I had this knowledge growing up I would have done things differently. I thought SAHM was the best way to go and I worked 60 to 70 hours a week (construction) to make it happen. It turns out it was the wrong choice because of her personality and other issues, especially resentment that I wasn't around to entertain her because I worked too much. If she had gone to work she still may have walked out but it wouldn't have financially ruined us. While trying to work it out, we put her through college and she left immediately after graduation. Two years later she is still only working part time and has cashed in her savings. I am barely getting by because I have no help around the house and struggling in this economy and emotional low point in life. The kids are suffering the most, even economically, since there is no money for any extras. This is the danger that Athol is warning about. This is what people need to hear to make informed choices.

  43. Doug1 says:

    Anonymous–

    If he cant even figure out why people were offended by his comment then he damn sure shouldn't be giving relationship advice.

    Lady, who the hell do you think you are to tell Athol he "shouldn't" be giving relationship advice. Tons of people like his advice.

    Frankly, go stuff yourself.

  44. Doug1 says:

    *or they're adults,

  45. Ponyboy says:

    I was talking from a sociological perspective. i.e., analyzing what society says about it through what is made available for the SAHM.

    Your point is just as valid, but I would hope the work wouldn't be invisible to the people that matter – the husband and kids.

  46. Anonymous says:

    Doug – Put your lips a little closer to his ass. He might not have noticed you yet. :lol:

  47. horseman says:

    I agree with most of the posts. I make good money having worked my way up from a male secretary (dont laugh) to where I am a Director in a large health care agency making 6 figures. It took a lot of work and sacrifice. We purposely chose for my wife to stay home when the kids were small. Then we moved to a very small rural town and I commuted. When the kids were 10 and 12 there was no work for her to go back to.

    Now we live in a large city, 50,000+ and she has not intentionof going back to work. She barely cleans, doesnt cook much and stays on facebook all day. I work hard and come home, help kids with homework and clean the kitchen. She has the life of Riley. I'm tired of people asking what does your wife do and I say she's on maternity leave. Oh, how old are your kids? 15 and 17.

    I started the MAP 2 years ageo and am in great shape, dress well and have plenty of interest in a facility with 90% women staff. Like the article on blue pill regret its bitter on the no sex (6 times last year) so I dont bother. The combination of years of repression, tired from clawing my way up and now resentment is so ingrained its hard to change.

    Like prior posts its now why even bother when I can literally walk out and get several 35-45 year old women who would love to be a SAHM but with benefits within a day. If it wasnt for losing 40+% of my income on alimony I'd be gone. Now I am waiting for the kids to hit university in 3 years. Alimony I can swing, child support no.

    I guess my point is if you are going to do the SAHM route, which I highly endorse for the stability of the kids formitive yeasrs have a pre planned return to work plan. otherwise its an inevitable spiral of entitlement for the SAHM as the workload decreases and one of resentment and unfairness for the working spouse

  48. Horseman says:

    P.s. Athol don't buy into the hate. I think you are doing a fantastic public service. Its too late for me but you are helping the silent hundreds.

    remember my motto: Redemption not Remorse

  49. Nanasha says:

    In my parents’ situation, my mom SAHM’ed until my brother (the youngest) was in high school but in the meantime she went back to college and got her teaching credential. Then, she did some substitute teaching until she could find a permanent position, and just about at that time, my dad got laid off from his posh engineering job when they decided to move all the jobs to India. They pushed a good amount of his lay-off money into paying off the mortgage on their house, and since my dad is very handy around the house, he installed a bunch of efficiency stuff (solar water heater, etc) to cut down on monthly expenses. So now my mom uses her kindergarten teacher job to pay for expenses and since she is a teacher, she has access to good health benefits. Even though she makes significantly less money because she was out of the workforce, she is able to pay for all the household expenses and my dad can be retired and sit around all day and do whatever he wants.

    It can be bad if one person screws over the other person, but let’s be honest- marriage is about putting a fuckton of trust in another human being. If you are not able to trust your spouse to be faithful and maintain the relationship to the point where you are checking in on one another’s states of mind, you’re already halfway to divorce anyway, SAHM or not.

  50. TooManyPasswords says:

    I’m a work-at-home dad & have spent alot of time around SAHMs as a result. Most of them appear to be so sheltered. I also learned early on in my WAHD career never to inquire about what they did for a living before becoming a SAHM – I guess some are sensitive about the perception that they don’t really do much all day (true in some cases, though, in my experience). My brother is married to a long-time SAHM, and I think he views it as something of a status symbol to have a wife who doesn’t have to work. To each his own. I think it works better in my case to have a wife who works.

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