Jennifer: Don’t see things that don’t work as failures, see them as experiments. Sometimes we laugh, sometimes we just say “meh, tried that once, don’t need to do it again” and sometimes we say “ow, never mind” and go with something tried and true. Your 30% of what works for you is going to be different than our 30% of what works for us. Also, things change over time…things that weren’t in our 30% ten years ago are there now, and things that used to be there are not enjoyable any more.
Reader: I have young sons. How can I teach them some of these points as they grow up, even prior to various sexual information they will need?
MMSL primer is too adult for them right now so need a primer for the primer so to speak.
Athol: You’re a role model to your sons whether you want to be or not, so you’re going to teach them expectations of what marriage / relationships / sex is all about anyway. So model what you want them to learn.
If you playfully swat your wife’s ass and pull her in for a kiss, and she obviously likes it and likes you, your sons will notice. If your sons are mouthing off to their mother, and you back her up 100%, they will notice that. If you have a long discussion about a serious decision with your wife, and obviously pay attention to her input, they will notice that. The kids are always watching, always learning.
That being said, how young is too young to be directly taught MMSL is an interesting question. I was reading The Hite Report at age 10 and sneaking the Playboys long before I was allowed to buy them and it’s not like I turned out obsessed about sex or anything and… oh… hmmm… it’s not like my AIDS ravaged body was found dead in a ditch when I was 27 or anything.
But what’s out there as sexually available to kids these days is staggering beyond all belief. I’m not shocked by nearly anything I see or read about sexually – I do say certain things like swinging probably isn’t in your best interest, but it’s not like I’m offended by swinging or dislike swingers or even close to it. But I do have an all purpose concern about the sheer volume of what kids are exposed to before they even get to having a first kiss with someone. So there’s always going to be something they directly learn about sex anyway, so why not MMSL?
On a more personal level, I have two teenage daughters and there’s always been in the back of my mind that someday they will read everything I’ve written, if they haven’t already behind my back. So I feel like I’m writing a message in a bottle to them with every post. But I would feel shitty if a message in a bottle got to them after they were pregnant and dumped, riddled with herpes or wondering why no one wants to marry them. Or all three.
So at some point in the next year or so, I would like to write a “Teens Primer”, but it’s just an idea at this point. Not even a scribble on a napkin as yet. Until then though, Jennifer and I will just have to model a happy family and sex life. Which is fortunately quite enjoyable.
Reader: Athol, you said ” Only about 30% of what you try in the bedroom together will work for you as a couple.” You’ve said this before, IIRC. Two questions.
1 Where does this number come from? Is it a rule of thumb or is it more research-derived?
2 Does it actually mean that one woman in three will do pretty much anything and the other two will do missionary only?!
Right, I’ll get my coat… ;_)
Athol: The figure of 30% is based on the personal experience of Jennifer and myself. We’ve found that an awful lot of things that sound good, simply don’t work for us when we try them in reality. It’s just as simple as “Ahh… I don’t bend that way” for some things. Half the toys we’ve tried over the years got used once and tossed.
I know you all imagine Jennifer and I drenched in each others juices in a sweaty rythymic choreography each night, but some nights it really is exactly like this when I get a really good idea…
There’s also some things that we do as a couple that simply won’t work for many other couples. For example I’m 6′ tall and fairly sizable, while Jennifer is 5′ and fairly petite, so one position we like is a rear entry position with me lying on my back and Jennifer lying on top of me with her back on my chest. If Jennifer was 5’10” and fifty pounds heavier, it wouldn’t work for us as a position. It’s a great position in that it’s really intense, but even with her so much smaller than me, as soon as I orgasm the “erotic intensity” immediately turns into “bitch get off me”. There’s a sort of a 1-2-3 move where I orgasm,
dump her ass on her side of the bed gently roll her off me, and take a huge breath of air.
So the 30% figure is quite real to us as quite a lot of what we’ve tried in bed hasn’t worked for us. Somethings only work once as well. The first time is really good, and then the second time it’s just all kinda meh.
The 30% is important in that I think it’s very helpful and encouraging to couples starting out with widening the things they do, to think that it’s okay to have sexual failures. Most people have so much invested in sex that even a tiny handful of sexual failures can be viewed as a significant problem. The reality is pretty much everyone starts out pretty damn awful at having sex, and it’s only with practice and trying out stuff that you get better and better.
Trying out new sexual things is like batting in baseball. You hope that you’re going to hit a home run, but most times you aren’t even going to get a clean hit that gets you to first base. If you quit after a few strike outs, you’re not understanding the game. But if you just keep getting up to bat enough, at the end of the season you should have a decent record.
Or if makes you feel better… a symbolic interactionist based seventeen year longitudinal study involving the mating practices of a bonded dyad determined up to 70% of all novel breeding methodolgies initated by the male met with negative levels of reported enjoyment. This lack of enjoyment was slightly more typically reported by the female than the male.
So anyway, make a bucket list and just start trying new stuff out together. If it doesn’t work, laugh about it. If it works, you’ve found something new to do together that’s exciting and fun!
I’ve had a few recent comments that basically assume I’m advising husbands to violently rape their wives without regard to consent or her injuries. Frankly I think I’m being trolled, but trolling or not, let me restate the facts plainly and clearly one more time.
(1) Many women enjoy rough sex, it’s worth experimenting with that to see if your wife does. If she likes it, she likes it.
(2) Many women enjoy dominance, it’s worth experimenting with that to see if your wife does. If she likes it, she likes it.
(3) Sex needs to be consensual. Forced sex is rape.
(4) Dominance needs to be consensual. Submissive women don’t need to be forced anyway, if you’re attractive enough you just need to lead them and they follow naturally.
(5) If sex hurts, you’re doing it wrong and should stop, or there’s a potential medical issue and you should stop. “Ow!” is a safeword.
(6) You should talk about rough sex and dominance attempts together before getting into it.
(7) Only about 30% of what you try in the bedroom together will work for you as a couple. Hair pulling may not work, spanking might not work, gentle biting may work. You need to try and evaluate each thing together.
(8) Trying out rough sex together is a process and you aren’t going to leap to a cat-o-nine-tails and her wearing a collar with the word “Slut” on it on the first attempt. Or even do that ever.
(9) There is no requirement she likes any of it. If she actively dislikes some aspect of sex, don’t force it on her as it’s both unpleasant to her and counter-productive in terms of turning her into a more willing sex partner. The less she’s into you, the less she’ll be into trying any of this.
(10) Most of rough sex’s erotic power comes from the intensity of the experience. A small amount of interpersonal frustration can add to the intensity of the experience, a lot of anger easily translates into a loss of control and increased possibility of trampling over her safety and consent… getting you into serious legal trouble.
In addition, let’s review some of those exact same points I’ve made in earlier “rough sex” posts. The safeword is “Ow!”…
Sexy Move: Hair Pulling While On Top – “This is a very firmly held position even compared to her being tied up with low end bondage equipment. That she could probably break out of if she wanted to, but you on top of her holding her head turned to the side leaves her with zero leverage. Unless you let her go, she’s… ahh… fucked. Which is the idea and the excitement, but also she may find it a little more than she expected. So a safeword may be in order. If you don’t have a safeword, consider “stop” or “let me go” or even “ow my hair!” acceptable attempts at using a safeword.”
“And like anything else rough, this is something to talk about before you do it.”
Sexy Move: Pretend To Hold Her Against Her Will – “Then get a fair bit more vigorous in the thrusting department. As always, consider “ow!” or “stop” a safeword. Maybe not “no” though… talk about that first though.”
“Just try it out together. If it works for you, then great. If not, at least you tried something new which is still a good thing.”
Try A Rough Sex Experiment – “So give it a trial run if you haven’t already. She may just like it. And if you haven’t talked about a safeword, consider “ow!” the safeword for now.”
Getting A Little More Sex From Your Husband – “Also I realize that this isn’t exactly what you want, but you can ask him to chase you. It may feel awkward and slightly fake at first, but in time it can become more natural feeling. It can be as simple as texting him earlier in the day that you just want him to “just take you”, or “tonight I’m going to say no but I don’t want you to really believe that“. You may want a safeword for that last one. (My wife’s safeword is “Dershowitz and Feinstein” for example.)”
I hope that covers it.
Jennifer: There’s a big difference between the “being into you” of firm/intense sex, and angry sex.
KatF has left a new comment on your post “Getting Her To Pull Your Lever“
I think long-term rejection is equally bad, but a single incidence of sexual rejection to a woman is pretty painful. It’s hard to articulate specifically why, probably because we know that sexual attraction is so important to a man in a LTR/marriage.
Don’t deny your wife sex, it will have the opposite of the intended effect (making her want you more). Athol definitely got this when talking about the Lingerie Vault (and Lingerie Vault Part 2)- if you don’t positively reinforce it, she won’t do it. I have a couple stories of being rejected while wearing lingerie – you can bet he never saw that again.
Athol: Women react incredibly badly to sexual rejection as they have so little frame of reference as to how to even comprehend it happening to them. In their mind men always want sex, and the woman is the one that acts as the gatekeeper. The woman has the power of the decision between the sexual yes and the sexual no.
So when the man actually turns them down it’s a shock to their system. Typically they react to this in one of two ways, (1) they blame themselves and turn inward with spiraling feelings of unsexy worthlessness, or (2) they demonize the man as a total idiot / impotent / gay / less than a man. You have to be really obviously committed to another woman, or exceptionally attractive to pass on a woman offering sex and not have a negative outcome somehow. Even then you pretty much have to (3) say that you’re flattered by her offer and make it look like you actually felt tempted.
As an important aside for those in the dating world – If you actively pursue a woman and she offers up the goods and you decline, 99% of the time she will choose reaction number (2). Then she will broadcast that to her girlfriends and your inability to get the job done will spread like wildfire. So you may as well just pick a new country to start over in lol.
Wives however will 99% of the time choose reaction (1). She will in her shame tell absolutely no one, start eating chocolate double chunk ice cream and winterize her vagina.
So if she does come looking for you and quite openly makes a pass at you, she’s probably hornier than usual, a little excited that she’s being “A great wife and initiating sex just like he keeps asking for!” and imagining that you’re going to just mount her like Genghis Khan back from a five day ride. So you not being interested in all that, carries about the same level of psychic shock as her declining an engagement ring would to you.
What women consider as making a pass at you is probably less than you think it is too. This is classic miscommunication between the sexes here. What she thinks of as making a pass at you, is probably just exaggerated Indicators of Interest. Showing more skin, touching your arms a lot, flicking her hair, hanging around you, laughing at your jokes just a little more than than they are funny, giggling, licking her lips and so on.
What he thinks of as her making a pass at him, is her grabbing at his penis, or her bending over at the waist stark naked. Her approaching him wearing lingerie is a grey area to some men as she isn’t directly touching his penis, or bending over at the waist stark naked. So they might play it safe and keep watching the football instead.
So yeah, her wearing lingerie = TAKE ME NOW BAD BOY
Jennifer: Athol does decline sex once in a great while when he’s exhausted or extremely ill. What I ask him then is 90% playful but also 10% serious… “Should I dial 911?”
Reader comment: I have discovered that my wife WANTS me to make the move. She will hardly ever initiate. But she NEVER says no and always is enthusiastic when I do.
I am like Chip. It takes some getting used to, to just assert your sexuality, admit that you want to get laid and take what is yours.
But my wife even told me a while back to just ignore her protests that she has some blah blah blah thing she has to do for the next hour and can you wait until after that. She told me to let the cake burn in the oven. Just take her by the hand and tell her “we’re doing it now”.
How cool is that? My wife told me that she is available anytime anywhere. I just have to be man enough to demand it and she will go for it.
Athol’s advice has been an epic win for my wife and I. She MELTS when I dominate her. Who would have known? This is not what men are taught these days.
Athol: There’s a sort of a quantum leap between weakly asking for sex and making a stronger statement that sex will be happening. The husband is too afraid to make the jump without reassurance that she isn’t going to react very badly to him, and for the wife, giving him reassurance she won’t react badly kills her reaction to being dominated.
You can’t ask for permission to dominate in the moment because it ruins it. Asking for permission means you’re far more the submissive than the dominant. “Please Mistress, may I serve you by pulling your hair and spanking you?” See, just doesn’t work does it.
However you can have that conversation outside of the bedroom, without having that same ruining effect happening. You can clear dominance ahead of time and then just move forward with actual attempts later on. The first few times probably won’t feel all that powerful, but if she likes it, then she likes it, and that will encourage further attempts to be more interesting.
The very simple move to try out first is ye olde missionary position, but doing it rougher than you have done it in the past. Just crank it up 15-20% rougher than your previous maximum. Gauge her response. You may be surprised at how much she likes it.
Don’t worry about hurting her, as long as she’s wet / lubed enough you can’t really hurt her in that position. Vaginas are designed to survive eight pound babies squeezing out of them, so a standard issue penis isn’t going to tear her open unless you’re Superman. Actually now that I think of it, wouldn’t Lois Lane having sex with Superman be kinda risky? I mean never mind ripped condoms, wouldn’t he just blow her head off when he comes?
Anyway…. I’ve actually experimented with trying to have sex in that position at my 100% full force maximum. Jennifer liked it. It’s not an everyday thing by any means, but it’s in the rotation. Personally I don’t enjoy the sex itself that way as much as I do other less aggressive ones, Jennifer clinging and snuggling into me afterwards is very enjoyable.
Jennifer: I do enjoy that style of sex, but like Athol said, it’s not an everyday thing. He always teases me a little for the snuggling too. (And thanks for the comment…it’s really good to hear when things are working!)