Turning Women Down For Sex Drives Them Crazy

KatF has left a new comment on your post “Getting Her To Pull Your Lever
I think long-term rejection is equally bad, but a single incidence of sexual rejection to a woman is pretty painful. It’s hard to articulate specifically why, probably because we know that sexual attraction is so important to a man in a LTR/marriage.
Don’t deny your wife sex, it will have the opposite of the intended effect (making her want you more). Athol definitely got this when talking about the Lingerie Vault (and Lingerie Vault Part 2)- if you don’t positively reinforce it, she won’t do it. I have a couple stories of being rejected while wearing lingerie – you can bet he never saw that again.
Athol:  Women react incredibly badly to sexual rejection as they have so little frame of reference as to how to even comprehend it happening to them. In their mind men always want sex, and the woman is the one that acts as the gatekeeper. The woman has the power of the decision between the sexual yes and the sexual no.
So when the man actually turns them down it’s a shock to their system. Typically they react to this in one of two ways, (1) they blame themselves and turn inward with spiraling feelings of unsexy worthlessness, or (2) they demonize the man as a total idiot / impotent / gay / less than a man. You have to be really obviously committed to another woman, or exceptionally attractive to pass on a woman offering sex and not have a negative outcome somehow. Even then you pretty much have to (3) say that you’re flattered by her offer and make it look like you actually felt tempted.
As an important aside for those in the dating world – If you actively pursue a woman and she offers up the goods and you decline, 99% of the time she will choose reaction number (2). Then she will broadcast that to her girlfriends and your inability to get the job done will spread like wildfire. So you may as well just pick a new country to start over in lol.
Wives however will 99% of the time choose reaction (1). She will in her shame tell absolutely no one, start eating chocolate double chunk ice cream and winterize her vagina.
So if she does come looking for you and quite openly makes a pass at you, she’s probably hornier than usual, a little excited that she’s being “A great wife and initiating sex just like he keeps asking for!” and imagining that you’re going to just mount her like Genghis Khan back from a five day ride. So you not being interested in all that, carries about the same level of psychic shock as her declining an engagement ring would to you.
What women consider as making a pass at you is probably less than you think it is too. This is classic miscommunication between the sexes here. What she thinks of as making a pass at you, is probably just exaggerated Indicators of Interest. Showing more skin, touching your arms a lot, flicking her hair, hanging around you, laughing at your jokes just a little more than than they are funny, giggling, licking her lips and so on.
What he thinks of as her making a pass at him, is her grabbing at his penis, or her bending over at the waist stark naked. Her approaching him wearing lingerie is a grey area to some men as she isn’t directly touching his penis, or bending over at the waist stark naked. So they might play it safe and keep watching the football instead.
So yeah, her wearing lingerie = TAKE ME NOW BAD BOY
Jennifer:  Athol does decline sex once in a great while when he’s exhausted or extremely ill. What I ask him then is 90% playful but also 10% serious… “Should I dial 911?” 

Comments

  1. IndyGuy77 says:

    I'd guess it works similarly to them getting dumped, huh?

  2. Sexual denial can be fun sometimes. I like to tease her by stimulating her and forbidding her to orgasm.

  3. Anonymous says:

    I have denied women sex with both positive and negative results. In the negative cases, I had either completely lost interest in a relationship or the girl was only interested in sex and I proved not to be the toy boy she was looking for. In positive cases, it made them rather eager to please.

    Would be interested in hearing anecdotes from others.

  4. Anonymous says:

    Athol, thank you so much for posting this. GudEnuf and Anon, please re-read this carefully. Especially the post KatF references. We're talking about a turn-down that's flat, not a game to increase arousal; that has to be planned and understood. Anon, we're talking about LTRs and very core, intimate feelings, not a test to see what the casual dating relationship is made of. Totally different scenario. What Athol hits on is something most men in an LTR don't understand – if a woman offers and is turned down, the consequences can be catastrophic.

  5. Things had been going pretty well yesterday when wife had a display of Epic Bad Behavior. I did not feel close to her. I did not want her at all. I went to bed. Could have been interpreted as pouty, etc. I didn't directly confront, but I was NOT going to have sex with her. I won't reward bad behavior. Maybe she didn't want sex and so sabotaged a good day. I don't know. Maybe it was some sort of test, but I just didn't want to deal with her BS.

  6. So basically women can have sex for the asking, and can say no whenever they wish, but men have to beg and should never say no. This is equality?

  7. Ian Ironwood says:

    No, of course it's not. Equality in a relationship is a myth, despite feminist propaganda to the contrary. Just like one or the other of your nuts is going to hang low, one or the other of you will be the dominant partner. If it's her, then you are entirely at her mercy in your sex life. If it's you, you get laid a lot more. But equality? While the male and female ends of an extension cord are both of equal importance, one side or the other has to have the pointy bits. Equal importance, perhaps, but not equal behavior.

    And that's kinda the important thing to remember about Game. If you get hung up on vague and idealistic ideas about "equality", when CLEARLY there can be no such thing in the standard-issue hetero LTR, you'll never improve your Game because you will be worrying far too much about whether or not you're pissing her off by making her feel unequal. Forget that. It doesn't do you any favors, and no woman ever thought "gosh, he treats me like an equal! I think a blowjob is in order!".

    Accept your dominance, or she never will. Accept your leadership, or she surely won't. And accept that there is no "equality" in the bedroom. She's going to win some, and you're going to win some, but only if you're willing to abandon the idea that sex is the place to demonstrate your equality. After two generations of feminist evidence to the contrary, there's no way that you can argue for "sexual equality" with a straight face.

    I will add, however, that you can use her own Rationalization Hamster against her if she's big on equality. Remember, big difference in what she says and what she does. More than likely if she says she wants an equal sexual relationship, as long as you agree that you have one in public she's not going to even recognize your dominance in the bedroom for fear of hurting the hamster. It would be interesting to see how some dude married to a hardcore feminist would make out if he started running Game on her without her realizing it.

    But equality? Hang it up. It's not even a consideration. A happy relationship beats one where you spend all of your time and energy ensuring that you're "equal" to your wife.

  8. Ian Ironwood says:

    One more thing about rejection and turning down sex from your woman. I generally discourage the practice, but if your wife is blatantly trying to use sex to subvert your will, as a means of leverage to gain power in the relationship (consider the kind of wife who doles out just enough nookie to keep her Beta alive, but not enough to keep him thriving) then it's possible that one or two firm rejections — along with calling out her blatant attempt to manipulate you — can often send a powerful message just because they take such rejection harshly.

    As an example, a friend of mine asserted himself for his choice of vacation destination, after allowing his wife to choose for seven years straight. When he tried to be firm about it, she whipped out the boobs and nearly had him on his knees in his sex-starved marriage. But I was proud of him — he was steadfast, and called her out rather rudely for her blatant and obvious attempt. He then chased down every rationalization that came out of her mouth, and was unmoving. It was the first major backbone I'd ever seen him show in his relationship. But once she realized that he had made up his mind and not even the promise of immediate sexual gratification would move him, she finally realized that he really meant it this time. Eventually she relented, they had a wonderful sex-filled time where he chose, and (hopefully) he will continue this new assertiveness.

    But it just goes to show that precisely because a woman takes rejection so powerfully, there are times when a well-placed rejection can undermine her power in the relationship. If she can't drop her panties and have you do exactly what she want any time she wants to, then that forces her to change her entire approach. It's a powerful weapon, and one you have to be careful to employ properly, but in certain circumstances it can really help things.

    But usually you should hit that any time she offers. It's just good form.

  9. It must be the bending over thing I'm missing. Cause I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've been rejected by my hubby with his hard cock in my hands, or even mouth for that matter….

  10. Anonymous says:

    Thank you for your great insight and writing style. I usually learn from each of your posts and often find them lmao hilarious:

    "Women react incredibly badly to sexual rejection as they have so little frame of reference as to how to even comprehend it happening to them.

    So when the man actually turns them down it's a shock to their system. [A wife's reaction will be to] winterize her vagina."

    BTW, have you watched The Man from Earth. It's a very interesting sci-fy type movie.

  11. Kathy Farrelly says:

    If a couple are married neither should withhold sex from their partner.. It is part and parcel of marriage. An expression of love.

    Silly games like withholding orgasm are extremely childish.

    Women who use sex as weapon need a good kick up the backside..
    I cannot stand women who make a man beg for sex.. These women obviously have no regard for their man's feelings.

    "What he thinks of as her making a pass at him, is her grabbing at his penis, or her bending over at the waist stark naked."

    As well as coming straight out and saying " Hey, the kids won't be home for an hour yet, how about a root?"

    No chance of a misunderstanding there, and it works every time. ;)

  12. my wife gets horny when she gets tipsy from a few drinks. quite honestly, i am beginning to resent it. it's the only time she wants to have anything but a standard missionary quickee. i recently turned her down while tipsy and it pissed her off. she holds my cock hostage but not any longer. we are going to talk this out and get over this crap. whether you know it or not, this post inspired me. thank you.

  13. Kathy, amen!! Withholding sex is downright evil. If you don't want to have sex with him, you shouldn't be married to him. It took me 15 years to realize that I was never going to be wet-pantied for the man I married. Some will see I did him a favor, but he doesn't see it that way. It's no way for a marriage to be.

  14. " So basically women can have sex for the asking, and can say no whenever they wish, but men have to beg and should never say no. This is equality?"

    I think the point is more that if you want your wife/gf to sleep with you when she isn't totally hot to trot, you have to be down for the same deal. And it's a behavioral conditioning thing, she needs to feel her efforts to be sexually available are rewarded. But it's also a visceral hindbrain thing, getting turned down when she's horny is a shock, a shock most women haven't had to deal with the way men have.

    "Things had been going pretty well yesterday when wife had a display of Epic Bad Behavior. I did not feel close to her. I did not want her at all. I went to bed. Could have been interpreted as pouty, etc. I didn't directly confront, but I was NOT going to have sex with her. I won't reward bad behavior."

    I think there's a big difference between the following motivations for not having sex:
    -You did something entirely unattractive and I am just not into seeing you that way right now.
    -We've had a fight and we need to cool off rather than have makeup sex.
    -I want a new kitchen/truck/house/etc and I won't sleep with you until you provide it for me.

    I wouldn't call (1) or maybe even (2) witholding. (3) is strategic barter for that which you agreed to (reasonable sexual activity) by getting married. "I'm just really not feeling it" is a lot more tenable than "I am consciously training you."

  15. "Silly games like withholding orgasm are extremely childish."

    Please watch the shaming language.

    If it works for both of them, who cares? Silly and childish often equals fun.

  16. Anonymous says:

    I think its all about frame control. In my relationship, I (the man) am the sex object. I decide when and where we have sex because she always wants it. I'm in control, not her. I reject her only when she has done something unattractive. Otherwise, the spigot is open!

  17. Anonymous says:

    Even when hubby is too tired, he gives me some sort of display to demonstrate that we're on solid footing, and he'd bed me if he could. We're finally at that place where sex (and sexual references) are equal to saying "I love you."

  18. Anonymous says:

    @Anon 9:27

    Can you explain further? Was it always this way? Is your sex rank higher than hers? What makes it so she always wants it? Just she just have a raging libido or is it your frame that creates it?

  19. Anonymous says:

    "Accept your dominance, or she never will. Accept your leadership, or she surely won't. And accept that there is no "equality" in the bedroom."

    Thanks Ian ^^^^^^^^^

    Rick

  20. Anonymous says:

    Wow. I'm impressed. If my wife treated a sexual reference as an "I love you" that would be amazing. How did you get to that place? Did you used to be in a place where you didn't want sex or sexual references or you felt they were selfish?

  21. Anonymous says:

    Can you explain further? Was it always this way? Is your sex rank higher than hers? What makes it so she always wants it? Does she just have a raging libido or is it your frame that creates it?

  22. Anonymous says:

    I'm wary of "dating is different from LTR" arguments. There are some differences, but they're generally smaller than most people think. After all, Athol's entire blog is based on using game — the player's tool — to benefit marriages.

    Note also that some of my successful turn downs were in LTRs. Still, for me the jury is still out about whether it's a wise move, which is why I was hoping someone else who has tried it could comment.

  23. Anonymous says:

    Sorry, I guess I didn't mean to say LTR. Sounded more like dating *before* a truly committed LTR. My mistake.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Short answer: MMSL.

    Longer answer is in me changing my mindset in terms of viewing sex as love, which is a lot harder than it sounds. I'm trying to put it into words… It's an amazing thing.

  25. Anonymous says:

    I do want to point out that rejecting your wife after years of calling her completely frigid is more than just a major shock to her, it is likely to bring on a divorce.

    Z

  26. Anonymous says:

    I was a wife. I remember distinctly the 5 or so times I initiated sex in a 20 year marriage. It is unimaginably painful to be rejected and makes it incredibly difficult and risky to ask again.I don't know if it is less so for men as I can only tell you from a women's perspective that it is bewildering. And no, I'm not a "double-bagger". I am an ex-model and still have the body. So, you can be a man or a woman and get rejected and it could must be that they are controlling and enjoy the imbalance of power.

  27. Z,

    If one partner has been withholding for an extended period of time and then initiates, expect the other partner to be angry, resentful and suspicious.

    If you are the partner that has been withholding, it is going to take a significant effort for a significant period of time to convince the other partner to accept what you are offering. They have built up walls to keep you from hurting them. It's going to take a while to bring down the walls.

  28. You only initiated 5 times in 20 years!!! No wonder you are no longer married. How could you possibly think your husband would feel loved if you only initiated sex once every 4 years?? Seriously, what is wrong with this, and its so common too.

    Why does this happen? Why don't women push through this issue and be a bigger part of making good sex happen. I understand that men have to take the lead more, but ladies, you can't let it get so one-sided. The rejection is difficult for men too but they keep pressing on and try again and again.

    Can you explain more about why you only initiated 5 times in 20 years? I would really like to understand how this happens.

  29. I hate to be insulting and generalizing, but I've worked with many models over the years and I've yet to meet one without insecurity issues. They crave to be desired and then resent you if you desire them.

  30. >What women consider as making a pass at you is probably less than you think it is too. This is classic miscommunication between the sexes here. What she thinks of as making a pass at you, is probably just exaggerated Indicators of Interest.

    Yeah, I've experienced this. My wife poking my arm at 4AM like I'm a salmon steak and she's checking for my done-ness. Later, she tells me she was trying to have sex.

    Why should unromantic behavior like this be rewarded?
    Jason

  31. yes it was always this way but we entered into our relationship on this premise. and it has deepened over time. this is an extension of the general game premise of "I am the prize."

    being with me, having me as a LTR, spending time with me, and yes even sex with me is a privilege, not a right.

    in all modesty, i'd say that her sex rank is probably a little higher than mine (8.5) while i'm a solid 8. but I have other characteristics that increase it (career, leadership positions, combat sports champion, stature). plus she has particular affinity for some of my physical attributes.

    she does have a general high libido but the frame has always been there from the get go.

    i truly believe women want to be social/sexually dominated. taking the "keys" from her as it relates to sex is very important in that regard.

    i'm divorced and lived life all the wrong ways before. it has taken me some time (a few years) to get where I am now. but maintaining the frame of "I am the prize" is the key to everything.

  32. So turning her down, is bad, like crossing the streams.

    Good to know. I was thinking of doing it. My problem is, I always get rejected at this point. Every. Time. We actually have a better sex life than normal, however, in quality, and sometimes quantity.

    She initiates aggressively, or nothing happens. I don't like that it is always on her schedule. I don't like getting rejected. But we do have a better sex life than normal right now.

    It may be because she's pregnant and the hormones are messed up.

  33. Wow! I would love to hear Athol chime on this. He claims that as the guy, even if you're on your game being the alpha in the relationship and increasing your rank to trump hers, you can plan on initiating most of the time (90%).

    In your case, you are saying she is equal or higher rank than you and yet you have her after you for sex and you are in control of when and how often it happens. My hat is off to you. I think you have gone a step beyond what even Athol prescribes here.

    I have followed MMSL and have taken my relationship from she never wants sex to getting as much as I want. However, I still do 90% of the initiating.

    I wonder if some of this isn't just related to libido/sex drive. Ie. your wife has a higher sex drive than you? Is this the case, or is it just that you are determined to be in control of the sex and have stuck to your guns and made it happen? How often do you want sex? How often does she want it?

    I really am hoping to learn from you on this, because you have it the holy grail in my opinion. Thumbs up!

  34. I didnt say that I don't do the initiating. I just said that I decide when and where. her default response to my initiation is is yes. it is always on offer and available.

    I do 80-90% of the initiating but perhaps for different reasons. in our relationship, I decide when to have sex, so of course, I'm going to do the initiating. the key difference is that I know without fail (95% of the time) that the response to initiation will be positive.

    i've taught her that her job is to service me sexually. my job is to lead her in the right direction and provide support/be the rock. i'm to bring provisioning and leadership, she brings sexual fitness and caring/kindness.

    sticking to my guns, as you say, is the key to it all. in fact, telling her that she can walk at anytime if she doesn't like it, is also key to it all.

    i'm not really as much of a prick as this may sound from the outside. its just that i've been burned, i've learned my lessons and this is the way its going to be for me. that or she can go.

    that is the real power – framing yourself (rightfully) as the prize. that it is her privilege and honor to participate. and most importantly, that you are not willing to compromise on this particular matter.

    dude, dont get me wrong – i do the dishes, cook, go grocery shopping, do the beta nesting stuff, pay the bills, lead cleaning efforts, and all that too. which makes my captainship in the bedroom all the easier, because i'm the captain everywhere else as well.

    as i re-read your post i want to re-emphasize – I'm in control of where and when the sex happens AND I do the initiating…its just that it is understood that when I initiate – the answer is always yes.

  35. Ok, that makes much more sense then. I think what threw me off is your statement that "she wants it all the time". That is different than saying she knows she is expected to comply when you initiate.

    I agree with how you described the dynamic. I am close to what you described in my relationship. I initiate 90% of the time and 90% of the time its a good response. The difference is that in my case she doesn't necessarily "want it" all the time. She would normally be fine if I didn't initiate, at least for a few days or maybe a week. But if I do initiate the response is still positive.

    I guess the bottom line is I'm looking for her to "want it more".

  36. Second Z – I don't think Athol was trying to say that women should get sex whenever they want it and men shouldn't. It's just that in the stereotypical scenario, when the man wants it more, rejecting a woman who has the happy thought of doing something nice for her man, ie initiating sex (*especially* when he has complained that she never initiates), would have the effect of her never, ever doing that again. Shooting yourself in the foot, in other words.

    Here's an analogy: woman wishes man would buy her flowers. She drops lots of hints, tells him directly, looks wistfully at other people with flowers. One day he thinks he'll surprise her and he buys these flowers and is all excited to come home and give them to her, and hands them over with a big grin. She is absorbed in her work, glances quickly at them, says "Oh… thanks…" like she's not that impressed and then goes immediately back to her work.
    Is he ever going to buy flowers again?

  37. Anonymous says:

    yes, that is definitely a distinction.

    in my relationship however, if i dont initiate at least once in a 36 hour time period she will usually throw out "we never have sex anymore"

    so i guess to put an even finer point on this, she does in fact want it all the time, she is just hoping i'll initiate that day.

    nevertheless i hear you and wish you luck in your efforts, sounds like you've come a long way

  38. Tequila Mockingbird says:

    Anon wife, I was in a similar situation with my ex-husband. I clearly remember the first time I put on some lacy lingerie and tried to entice him. He snorted, told me I looked ridiculous, and "take that silly thing off."

    On other occasions he always was "too tired," "just not in the mood," or some other excuse. He spent a lot of time jerking off to porn, though.

    When our marriage really started to circle the drain, he angrily complained that I never initiated sex. Well, duh, if I initiate and get ridiculed and insulted for my effort, what did he expect?

  39. Anonymous says:

    Lemme guess… People were appalled that you resorted to divorce, I'll bet! Who the heck wants to live like that? So sorry you had to endure that. Hope next time is better.

  40. Anonymous says:

    Does your 90% iniating go the same for flirting and displays of affection outside of sex? Or does she iniate more of that? Do you want/need sex less often than her in general?

  41. The sad (ironic) thing is, is that I do not really want sex with her anymore. I am not sure exactly but between the years of her rejecting me, her putting on a lot of weight and my running of MAP, it is hard for me to be aroused by her now. And I feel like crap for that!

    And now she is starting to initiate. Well 3x in the past 2 months, if you call that starting. That also could be because I have stopped initiating but that was about six months ago. So she finally noticed, "hey we aren't having sex." And started picking up the ball, but again, I am really not that interested anymore. Sure, I will have sex, because who doesn't want to have sex. But I have considered and guess I still am, just telling her I am not feeling well or I am tired, etc.

    So, I have rejected her twice in our marriage (10+) marriage. She has rejected me hundreds of times. And the rejections she has given have not always been kind. Getting told I am a perv / unnatural for wanting to have sex with my wife more then once every 7-10 days.

    Also, I have noticed a decrease in my libido, I DO still want to have sex… but I notice another more marked decrease in libido when she tries to initiate.

    This is so frustrating, along with the "you may almost have to walk out the door" before the change you want happens.

    I am a simple guy, well I use to be… then I got married and now I have to work this and work that, don't be too much that or too much this. It seems to all boil down to me making a poor choice in my spouse (a lot of personal red flags, as well as familial red flags – more like I just didn't know some of those things were serious issues). I'll be passing your book on to my boy as well as trying to prepare him for the very important decision in his life.

    You know, my wife and I would make really good roommates. Which almost came up in conversation today, but I did not say it. I think it is to the point that she is going to say something about her wanting to have more sex and now I don't and why not?!? And then I have to consider how honest I am going to be with her, because she wouldn't handle that very well at all!

    FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!

    (Sorry for the rant, it is just so frustrating).

  42. no, she is very affectionate and flirtatious. in fact she does initiate most of that behavior aside from my ass slapping and occasional man handling.

    when we first met, my sex drive was higher than hers. we would have sex 15-20 a week for the first couple of years. now its more like 5-10 a week and i'm ok with that. and yes, it is driven by my libido, not hers. i'm also ten years older than her if that makes a difference.

    i wonder if i have had a drop in T levels or if work stress is causing it.

  43. if every man divorced his wife after being rejected 5 times, there would be about 3 marriages left in the entire universe. talk about a double standard.

  44. So I slept on it, the above is complaining and whiny. How do I move past that because since I have taken the Red Pill I seem to continually come back to this "ARGH! Why does it have to be this way?" mode.

    But also, how should I deal with me not being aroused by her any more? She would not handle the truth very well at all.

  45. Anonymous says:

    I know you said you didn't like the "almost walk ouy the door" move, but what else do you have to try? I see one of two things happening… You stick with her and spend the rest of your life dending off her advances. Or, you try one last thing – walking away. Either way, she's crushed, and you're miserable. But with the latter, yoi have a.shot at being happy. Either something clicks or snaps. Either you two shake thing up enough to rekindle the spark on both sides, or you're free to move on and find happiness.

  46. Anonymous says:

    If you are not attracted to your wife anymore or that attraction has significantly declined then sooner or later you are going to have to be honest with her about that. Basically, you have taken the red pill and she will have to take it too, which will happen after you tell her if she wants to fight for the marraige. She will need to run the MAP herself. Telling her doesn't have to start out as an ultimatum, its just honest open communication with you telling her that you are seriously concerned about the issue at hand (that you have described). She is already showing signs of wanting a good sexual relationship with you, I would say that is a good sign.

    But if she is used to being in control of the relationship and the sex and know that has started to shift into your camp, its going to take a while for her to adjust and move in your direction. But she will need to know where your head is at to really make progress, and yes it has its risks.

    For me and my wife the risks have been worth it. In our case it started with her total lack of interest in sex and I got a huge dose of the red pill when she was honest with me about not being attracted to me. I put the map into high speed action once I realized that. Hopefully your wife will do the same.

  47. Anonymous says:

    My husband doesn't like lingerie meaning corsets,garter belts,filmy fabric. He wants a college girl look I am confused about (tshirt or what???). He can't seem to explain it to me. I am middle aged and look it and somewhat overweight. I can't figure out how to pull this off as I am not some tiny cheerleader young woman. By the way, I happen to like various types of lingerie so it is disappointing to buy it and he just ignores it. I have found lingerie that works to suggest sexiness but covers my various flaws but anyway it is still a no go. Rejected.

  48. Anonymous says:

    If your husband doesn't like it when you wear lingerie then I hate to say it but its just brutally honest. He is not very attracted to you. Either he has a higher sex rank than you and doesn't find you that attractive or he is way into porn or both.

    You are going to have to work the MAP, lose the weight, get into shape and do whatever it takes to up your SR. Increase your value which is not just about looks even for a woman.

  49. Anonymous says:

    There's a lot of stuff out there that's marketed as "lingerie" that (IMHO) would look awful on most women, certainly women whose bodies show signs of age and weight (visit any of the "big box/discount" department stores for examples). So, I can see a situation where a woman "invests" in "bad" lingerie, and the man is turned off.
    Jason

  50. Anonymous says:

    …I feel uncomfortable suggesting this, but what if you browsed the "young people's" catalogs & web sites (like Hollister, Abercrombie) for ideas on what younger women wear as lingerie or sleepwear…but don't buy anything, just get a "framework" for the type of thing to build off? Then find a "better" lingerie shop where you can have a conversation with an experienced salesperson on putting together something that will make you feel special?
    Jason

  51. Anonymous says:

    My husband doesn't like lingerie (ie garters, stockings, etc.) period, and I'm in my late 20s and in good shape. He likes *me*, but although I think lingerie is sexy, he just doesn't. He does like underwear luckily, and that's easier anyway :-)

    I'd say shop the Pink line at Victoria's Secret. If he doesn't like lingerie anyway, then it doesn't have to be something revealing – maybe a baby tee and velour sweatpants with some "naughty" saying printed across the butt. Maybe a ponytail for the final touch, if you hair's long enough.

  52. Anonymous says:

    Anon 8:33 is right on. I was shocked as my man immediately started pawing at my ass the first time I wore yoga pants. Thought I was being slovenly, but he ate it up!

    And, yes, after that I started riding my bike more to give him a better ass to grab.

    "College" could also be more academic. I wonder if he means plaid skirts n boots. Maybe you two could browse shopping sites online together? Could be fun.

  53. Anonymous says:

    Ah. And it's not just a sexual reference, it's a *display*. Long kissing sessoon with a good rub of the cock will do. Something to show me he loves me is something that speaks volumes. Sometimes its just that smoldering in his eyes.

    But, yes, touch and sex quickly became our language of love. It's what makes us exclusive. We may laugh and joke with other people. We may kiss other people (our kids). But only I get to toich his cock. Only he gets to touch me pretty much anywhere. Only he kisses me *that way*.

  54. Anonymous says:

    "So when the man actually turns them down it's a shock to their system. Typically they react to this in one of two ways, (1) they blame themselves and turn inward with spiraling feelings of unsexy worthlessness, or (2) they demonize the man as a total idiot / impotent / gay / less than a man. You have to be really obviously committed to another woman, or exceptionally attractive to pass on a woman offering sex and not have a negative outcome somehow. Even then you pretty much have to (3) say that you're flattered by her offer and make it look like you actually felt tempted."

    This is SOOO True. I've always said, "If a woman is interested in you, and she finds out you don't like her back, she goes out of her way to make it clear to you that she doesn't like you anymore, and goes out of her way to make sure EVERYONE ELSE in the world knows that she doesn't like you."

    BTDT too many times, LOL. I have tried the "I'm flattered and really tempted, but…" and I've tried acting completely oblivious to the signs I am getting. No matter what, I know I am getting the cold shoulder from that woman from then on.

    In fact, knowing what I know now, there have been far more times that I simply was completely oblivious to the signs and it occurred to me weeks, months, or years later what had been going on.

    MMSL and general internet research has taught me the more subtle signs of a woman's sexual interest, which I would have to say I was completely in the dark about. I realize now that I only recognized the most brazen advances for what they were.

    It has explained why so many times a female who was previously just being what I thought was a friend or being friendly to me was now suddenly treating me like a leper when I could not thing of anything I had done to piss them off and had an AHA moment.

    Looking back, I missed out on a very large number of opportunities that I did not realize were in fact opportunities before I was married, and have gotten hit on far more than I ever would have realized since I have been married without reading MMSL. Doh. I am one clueless dude! I have never tried to Game, either. I am not a flirt.

    I have pretty much eliminated female friends from my life because the friendships have always seemed to end badly. It wasn't like I was giving any mixed signals that I know of, either.

    To sum it up, "…Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned…"

  55. Anonymous says:

    Thanks for all the suggestions on the "college girl" look for someone more mature,etc.
    re. the suggestion to up my looks I do intend to work on that but he has always had that preference vs the lingerie look no matter what my figure. Sheesh, not all men are identical as to what turns them on or even off.

  56. What he thinks of as her making a pass at him, is her grabbing at his penis, or her bending over at the waist stark naked.

    I've explained to my wife that this, to a man, is called "subtlety". Women, if your gestures are less obvious than this, chances are he will miss it!

    (Thanks to Athol, I've actually learned to read some of the more subtle signals, but I cringe to think of what I still might be missing).

  57. Anonymous says:

    Something is wrong with this picture. My wife has a lingerie vault as secure as fort knox. The closest thing I get to lingerie is seeing her in her workout clothes. Any type of lingerie or her acting sexy would do it for me.

  58. Anonymous says:

    Does she orgasm easily? Does she orgasm every time you have sex or nearly every time?

  59. Anonymous says:

    You are absolutely right!! If he doesn't like black lace, and you're ojay with that, who cares?? And you're asking the right question: what *can* I do?

    Happy sex to you!

  60. Anonymous says:

    ROI – my situation is similar to yours and I struggle with the same issues. I tolerated years of sex that swung between mediocre and nonexistent but finally started changing myself using the MAP techniques. The increased sex rank and destabilization has started working. My wife is initiating sex occasionally and her level of enthusiasm has increased somewhat. The dynamic of our relationship outside the bedroom has become better with more alpha on my part. But I'm just not excited about having sex with her anymore and it is troubling.

    I don't think its about the difference in sex rank. It's not a matter of "I've lost 50 pounds and you haven't so now you're ugly". It's more about the sexual disconnect that I've created over the years. Wanting something I could hardly ever get was driving me to madness so I willed myself to not want it. My sex life became masturbation and porn and they never let me down during all those years she did. My instinctual reaction now when I think about having sex with my wife is anger.

    Intellectually I understand the red pill idea that women are for the most part automatons when it comes to their sexual response. Intellectually I understand that it's irrational to be angry at my wife for not behaving the way I wanted – it was my failure for not evoking those behaviors. But it just fucking hurts. It's hard not to be resentful. It's like I'm stuck in these bad patterns of thought. The rage has worn a groove in my head and now it's difficult to accept improvement in things that I've bitched and moaned for the last decade. The recent articles here and at Ian's site about initiating have had me thinking a lot about this lately. I don't want to initiate anymore. Part of me doesn't trust her with my sexuality any more because she's used it to hurt and humiliate me in the past.

    Athol – any ideas? We are starting to get what we said we wanted. Why can't we be happy about it?

  61. I think your feelings are normal. I've had some of the same struggles in my head after running the map and changing 10+ year bad sexual and emotional relationship into a great one. The reality of the red pill has empowered my to change the relationship into what it should be, but I'm still mad about it at some level. I kind of feel cheated out of all those wasted years. And I sort of hate it at some level that I have to game my wife into loving me the way I think she should just love me anyway. But that part of my thinking is fading away, just taking some time.

  62. To the people who are complaining about women getting in a pattern of never initiating sex…

    When I was a small child I used to go over and knock on the neighbor's door all the time and we would play together. After many weeks I noticed that she would never knock on my door, it was always me asking her to come out and play. I told her how I felt sad about this and she said "I just assumed that if you were not busy and wanted to, you would come get me."

    I think women get into this habit of assuming that if you men want sex, you'll initiate sex. For people who take rejection really hard as Anon seems to, it's almost a preemptive defense. If it's not explicitly stated that her initiating is part of the thrill and makes you feel loved, she can start thinking "oh well we're having sex anyway what does it matter who started it."

  63. I can't tell you how many times I've been laying in bed with my partner and my brain has this process going on. "I kind of want to have sex tonight…maybe if I start kissing him? Ok, that didn't work. Maybe I should get under the covers and pleasure him? Maybe he's just trying to let me down easy because he doesn't want to have sex tonight? He does have to get up in the morning…I guess I'll just wait til tomorrow."

  64. Anonymous says:

    KatF,

    You have to be more subtle with a man. Get him hard, mount him and then use him for all he is worth.

    I don't know about your man, I think most men could take the hint from that point.

    - pdwalker

  65. Anonymous says:

    Anon @ 01:41pm

    Your feelings are understandable. Your resentful and feel betrayed. "Why should I have to do these things if she really loved me?". It gets under your skin like a poison.

    The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I still want to be in love with this woman?"

    If the answer is yes, then practice daily being in love with her, even if you are not feeling it. In time, assuming the other parts of your relationship are still healthy, your feelings will change. Let go of your anger and resentment. It'll just poison you. (eek! I sound like Yoda!)

    Just remember Athol's advice and practice that daily.

    - pdwalker

  66. Put me down as another one whose husband hates lingerie. Found that out about the third time I wore something sheer and silky. I cried a lot at the time (where he couldn't see me) and took quite a while to get over the perceived rejection.

    "Looking back, I missed out on a very large number of opportunities that I did not realize were in fact opportunities before I was married"

    I've experienced this from the female side. I have, several times now, told my husband stories about "this weird guy, he kept doing this, that and the other, and was really annoying…" and then my husband rolls his eyes and points out that the guy probably was trying to flirt with me.

    *blink, blink* Really?

    It tickles my husband no end that I was so naive back then.

  67. Anonymous says:

    every time i want her to, and then very easily. but i dont elect to make her orgasm anymore than about 20% of the time we have sex.

  68. I am similar to your husband, I do not care that much for lingerie. I mean, yes, it is nice to look at for about 30 seconds but… now come over here and let me take it off, because what I REALLY want is under the lingerie.

    I would much rather my wife spend that money on a nice outfit or some perfume or a blender (ha, just kidding!). Because there are some outfits that she use to wear that, to me, were even more sexy and a turn-on then lingerie.

    And good for you, being here and looking for ways to improve yourself for your husband.

  69. Anonymous says:

    Lingerie is for the woman's benefit. Makes her feel sexy. Men don't care. Short skirts or denim shorts. That's where it's at.

  70. Anonymous says:

    "But equality? While the male and female ends of an extension cord are both of equal importance, one side or the other has to have the pointy bits".

    Nice one Ian!!

  71. In my wife's case she actually dislikes it, because it makes her feel unsexy. And she has always felt that way… going along with the body issues that go back to her teenage years.

  72. Again, you opinion. My man *loves* when I dress up. And he loves nothing at all. You just gotta figure out whay works for you. And don't accept judgement from others on what you should or shouldn't like.

  73. Anonymous says:

    And just to drive everyone's point about different preferences home – my man absolutely loathes denim skirts :-)

  74. Ian Ironwood says:

    Anon 1:41:

    You might not be attracted to her at the moment, but don't write her off just yet. Once she starts realizing that the relationship is in jeopardy (and when you start getting attention from other women, that will be clear) then she'll redouble her efforts or throw a massive shit-test or both. Be strong, wait it out, hold her to account . . . and then calmly explain that you have had ENOUGH of this bullshit, that you recognize your sexual value even if she doesn't, and that if she doesn't start making a concerted and dramatic effort in the future then there is no telling where this will lead. Keep any potential consequences purposefully vague, to avoid the whole ultimatum idea. But blowing up next time she complains about your sex life in any way and stomping out of the house is a good way to reinforce in her mind that the rules of the game have now changed . . . and she's losing.

    In the meantime, look at other women. Let her see you looking at other women. Improve your wardrobe, hairstyle, mannerisms, and start acting like you're looking for strange. She'll take the hint. If she's not busting her ass to be more attractive to you in three months, you have a serious issue on your hands.

  75. Ian Ironwood says:

    It's what I do.

  76. Anonymous says:

    "every time i want her to, and then very easily. but i dont elect to make her orgasm anymore than about 20% of the time we have sex."

    Are you saying that since she orgasm easily, you don't worry about the 20% she doesn't? I'm a bit confused with the wording. Could you clarify if you dont mind?

  77. Anonymous says:

    yes she orgasms easily.

    i only give her orgasms 20% of the time as it is always my choice as to when she has orgasms.

    otherwise sex is for my pleasure and her pleasure is found in giving me mine.

  78. To the woman whose husband doesn't like lingerie, stop wearing it expecting to turn him on! If it makes YOU feel sexy or whatever then go ahead, but it's totally unfair to wear it and get mad that he doesn't escalate.

    Like serving him a dish he doesn't like then getting mad he doesn't appreciate it.

  79. Anonymous says:

    Like serving him a dish he doesn't like then getting mad he doesn't appreciate it…

    Didn't you get the memo? It isn't about the content, it's only the intent that counts! Lol!!!

  80. I did not read all 79 comments before me, but I will say that my first marriage was all about my husband denying me. Turned out he was gay. So if I have a lady friend say anything about her partner denying her, I say it's medical or he's gay. Period.

  81. Pickle,

    "I did not read all 79 comments before me, but I will say that my first marriage was all about my husband denying me. Turned out he was gay. So if I have a lady friend say anything about her partner denying her, I say it's medical or he's gay. Period."

    You do know that your experience doesn't necessarily translate to everyone else, right? You're doing a real disservice to your friends telling them to consider their man husband physically or psychologically defective because they don't hop at the chance to have sex, instead of encouraging them to find out what's really going on (she's doing something to turn him off, he's really stressed, her beta traits have faltered, etc).

  82. Pickle, that is funny that you mention that because 1 of the 2 times I denied my wife, in the 10+ years we have been married she did bring up me possibly being gay.
    I don't think so… I like women too much and guys not that much, to be gay. So limiting a guy's denial to only two things is pretty short-sighted. Many times the guy is no longer attracted to his wife. Especially if her attitude is, "Just love me like I am!" And how she is, is 50 lbs more then their wedding day.

  83. This is definately true, my husband has always had a low sex drive apart from the first 2 years we were together….I was very young (20) when we met and am 34 now. I have never gained weight and am the same weight now as when I was 17. He did sexually reject me at different points and has never been always up for it….maybe he is gay…people have often made jokes that he is…..regardless, I am still angry at him for past sexual rejections and have recently completely given up on trying to be sexy (for him). I will not wear lingerie, do not even really let him peck me on the lips and we dont hug in bed. Recently it has been over 2 months since we had sex (although he has been constantly asking for it) and I have decided I don’t want him anymore. I really borderline hate him for the fact that I wasted my most beautiful years on him, I will never forgive him and although I will hold on for my son for as long as I can (or he can) I will not allow myself to trust him again. He bought me a lovely gold heart chain for our anniverssary, I wore it a few times and threw it in the bin, I bought him nothing and plan to ignore our ‘meeting anniversary’ altogether. In short, he is nothing to be but a flatmate, the father of my son and a source of income. And this is entirely due to his sexual rejection/low sex drive.

  84. I have a higher sex drive than my husband of 1 year (which I had never previously encountered with former lovers) It was a huge shock not to be hounded for sex and took me a long time to understand initially. Although my husband never initiates sex, he allows me to wake him to have sex. He always reciprocates the effort that I put in and makes me feel like a goddess when I put the effort into riding on top. The noises he makes and the way he grips my skin makes me feel like the only person for him.
    I too associate sex with love, it developed from the feeling of closeness and sheer happiness we have after sex. Also, that he is more willing to help round the house or engage in the activities that I enjoy after a good session followed by a quick back scratch.

  85. Well.

    I Have met a few women on the internet And I Have to say that they are crazy.
    The crazy only comes out after you get to know them better.
    I Have a lot of stories but I Wouldn’t want to bore you with that

    The problem I Am having is I Feel that I Am good friends with these women talking to them for multiple years even Then the day comes when they want to come meet me sometimes get a motel and probably bang Some even just come out and say they want me to come to them

    Well I Have rejected Quite a few of these people whom I Thought were my friends and pretty much after the rejection after years of talking Two little letters makes it all go away

    So all I am trying to say is I Am just sad :/

    I

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