Is Physical Affection Beta?

Reader:  One year ago, I took the red pill.  I found your blog through Captain Capitalism, and started running the MAP.  Actually ran it for awhile before buying your book.  Also took up Latin dancing ala the captain.  Huge DHV, and I tell my wife about all my dancing experiences……  Dread.  Thank you very much – you, and several others in the manosphere have made a great difference in my life.
One question – I am incredibly affectionate.  If there is a dog or cat in the house – they love me, because I will rub them for hours.  Baby – I am holding it, walking it around, shushing it.  My wife, unless we are actively fighting, I will automatically rub her back, legs, arms, hands head.  I sometimes withhold my affection – but it takes a conscious effort.  I am somewhat beta – but I am quite a bit alpha as well.  Is being affectionate beta???
Athol:  Physical touch is Alpha, Beta, or both depending on how you do it.
It sounds like you are doing lots of affectionate non-sexual touching, and very likely physical touch is your Love Language - you also love being touched in return right? That sort of touching is in fact Beta, by which I mean the good sort of Beta in that physically touching women creates a release of oxytocin in their bodies, which creates a sense of bonding and trust in you. It’s not as strong as the oxytocin release from making her orgasm, but it’s definitely a positive effect in building a huge stockpile of relationship comfort in your wife.
So if your wife likes it, it’s a good thing. Beta is a good thing.
However the question is whether or not you have all that Beta balanced with enough Alpha. You can also do that with physical touch by touching her in more intimate areas of her body. You can rub her back for a while and then slide your hands around and cup her breasts. When you kiss her you can grab her ass and give it a couple little love slaps. You can playfully pounce on her from behind while she’s at the kitchen sink and grind your crotch on her ass as you hug her from behind.
And of course stripping off her clothes, or getting your hands under her clothes is a more Alpha escalation as well.
This sort of thing is exactly what I do with Jennifer. I probably touch her in some way fifteen times in an evening in between coming home from work and going to bed. It’s some of it is incidental touch, and some of it purposely seeking her out. It’s a kiss, a hug, a squeeze and a fondle. It’s the “Groping” part of my “Goofy and Groping” interaction with her. Just talk some playful sexy nonsense with her and physically touch her on and off.
Just mix it up like you’re a cross between a labrador puppy and a sleazy octopus.
Warning: Do not attempt a “Breast Honk” move until things like pulling her hair, erotic spanking and totally forgetting to buy milk on the way home, make her smile.
Jennifer:  Athol is constantly touching me, and it’s a comforting, connecting thing…it doesn’t have to be a nod-nod, wink-wink, meet me in the bedroom baby kind of thing every time. Sometimes, yes, but not every time.

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  4. What’s Alpha and Beta… For A Woman? Part 2 Following on from yesterdays post of What’s Alpha and Beta...
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Comments

  1. Anonymous says:

    I also wonder about this. I love affection with my wife. I like giving it in fun playful ways, but I also like and crave affection back from her. The dilemna for me sometimes is that the only way I can get much affection from her is to either call for it "hey get over and rub my back" said in a playful way or I simply have to ignore her for a day or so and then she starts the unsolicited affection towards me.

    As soon as I start giving her affection then the affection from her slows way down. I'm pretty sure this is most unconciously done by her. The problem is that it seems very beta that I actually want and crave returned affection from her. (I'm not beta overall).

  2. (r)Evoluzione says:

    As a very physically affectionate man, I agree with all of Athol's advice here. I've actually slowed way down with the physical affection, and oddly, I feel far less needy as a result. It's like the research that shows that smiling makes you feel happy. Needy behavior makes you feel more needy. Simple.

    The breast honk is an epic move. Gotta throw that one in the mix. Extra alpha points for sound effects to go with it.

  3. Anonymous says:

    Jennifer's reply is exactly what I find very difficult in women: "Sometimes, yes, but not every time".
    Whenever I try to find out if she likes something I tried, I always get the "sometimes" reply…

  4. Anonymous says:

    "Sometimes" women are suspicious that the affectionate touches increase only when he wants to have sex with her. "Sometimes" we women like affection because there is a genuine feeling of affection coming from you not because it is leading to the bedroom. This is why I "sometimes" feel like smacking his roaming hands away when I am no way in the mood or stressed and busy. Mind you I don't do it but I feel like it. And if the "breast honk" comes at a lousy moment he might get an unpleasant "balls honk".

  5. Anonymous says:

    I Likes the Balls Honk, You are soooo Kinky!

  6. IndyGuy77 says:

    Breast honks are great, butt slaps are a total must. Even in public, not even totally secluded. The shock wins you points, IME.

    "Just mix it up like you're a cross between a labrador puppy and a sleazy octopus." I love this line, BTW.

    As for giving her affection:

    Can't you ensure you rub her on your terms? Like if she's TELLS you to rub her feet you either blow her off or get some major concession first. Make it transactional.

    But then be sneakily affectionate. If you notice she looks sore, you just grab her without a word and start rubbing it better. Then take a quick peck of a kiss as payment, don't immediately go for the lay after. Go play Xbox or something.

  7. IndyGuy77 says:

    Oh, HELL NO. That would get her an attention-getting hand-slap with a VERY loud and sincerely stern (well-faked sincerity anyway) declaration of "HEY! I am NOT a piece of meat!"

    This works wonders in public. Again, the shock on her face makes it all worth it.

  8. CantBeJustMe says:

    I like to be touched…by my wife. People outside of my family invading my personal space are going to know very quickly. My wife still tells people about what happened when we visited a very "touch feely" church YEARS ago. They have a part of the service where everyone talks to their "neighbor" and they HUG visitors. This guy went to hug me…I mean HUG ME HUG ME..I'm not homophobic at all..but if you aren't paying my bills, sharing my bed or you don't have my blood running through your veins, you don't need to be touching me unless I permit it.

    I wanted to pick him up by the nuts and the neck but after my wife saw the look on my face and squeezed my shoulder a bit…she interjected with "My husband's not a big hugger."

    I countered with putting out my hand for a handshake.

    Now I'm very physically affectionate with my wife. I know NOW that she KNOWS I enjoy this. Especially a smack on the ass when she walks by, or a quick rub of the shoulder. So I've cut the frequency way down.

  9. Stargate Girl says:

    Affection transactional? seems at odds with the very nature of affection to me. Some people just aren't touchy-feely. I would get pretty resentful and pissed if I had to negotiate affection from my husband. neither partner should have to "pay" the other for affection.

    Give your partner a hug. General rule is the hug isn't done til the hugger lets go.

    OTC and I are a physical couple. Not always in obvious ways. On the couch there is usually someones foot pressed against the other person. Footsies under the table. Casual caress in passing. And there are plenty of the boob honk/ass slap maneuvers. We've always been that way. Think it's part of the reason he still gives me tingles after 20 years :D

  10. IndyGuy77 says:

    Sorry, that didn't come off the way intended.

    I just meant if SHE is coming off as even semi-demanding, then re-frame so it's on your terms.

    Personally, I love the whole "all day slow-simmer" flirting. A stolen kiss here, a butt-slap there. The stuff that makes her protest with that involuntary smile, sometimes with the blush, too. And if it makes her impulsively or passionately return the favor, all the better.

    But some women like to outright demand things. Sometimes in an obnoxious manner.

    I don't accept demands. It's far easier to slap that behavior down right from the start.

    So if keeping "hand" as it were is seen as being not affectionate enough, that's a cross I'll have to bear.

  11. Anonymous says:

    I am affectionate and my husband is not. I feel touch hungry all the time but have learned it is useless to want it as he isn't interested. He touches me more when he is working up to having sex later. This depresses me for some reason.

  12. Anonymous says:

    "So I've cut the frequency down"

    What do mean here? Do you mean you've upped the frequency? Why would you cut it down based on your comment about how effective it is?

  13. Anonymous says:

    My wife used to be very touchy feely with me, but has stopped. If I touch her she'll move away after a moment. If I ask her for sex, 90% of the time she'll say yes, but she's stopped having orgasms. Not sure what to do.

    She was overweight for a while, and I told her that I wasn't all that attracted to her and would leave her if she didn't lose the weight. I put up with her being fat for years and it was long enough. She cried and yelled at me for two days and after I held my ground, she started dieting and working out. She lost 40 pounds and is maybe 10 pounds away from what she weighed when we got married. She looks great. She started dressing better, wearing makeup, changed her hair. We still had sex while she was losing the weight, but she wasn't into it anymore. She'd say lets just have a quicky since you aren't really attracted to me. Well now I am very attracted to her and she's still not having an orgasm during sex and not interested in trying to have an orgasm with me. She does use her vibrator in the shower sometimes.

    I'm not sure what to do next. The MAP and ultimatum worked to get her to lose weight, but she's basically giving me duty sex. She's not cold exactly. She's polite and distant and won't tell me what she's thinking. I can't find any evidence of an affair, but I bet if I asked her about her feelings she'd say that she loved me, but isn't in love with me.

  14. Soga says:

    Have you discussed that with him before? Sometimes, some guys just need more than a subtle push to get the message.

    Speaking from experience, not everybody is aware of the games people play in relationships. Before I became aware of Game, I was one of these men that just didn't really get it at all. I always thought I was a great guy any woman would be blessed to be with, but I didn't realize how much things like that really counted.

    Don't give up on your husband. You might want to try to introduce him to Game. It should help.

  15. Anonymous says:

    In my view either she doesn't respect you or she has a medical/hormone issue going on and really just has no libido. If she was have orgasms she lost the weight then I would say she has lost respect for you.

    Respect is not something you can demand you have to earn it. This is where the beta stuff comes in I think. Are you meeting her emotional needs? I don't mean buying her flowers and all the nonsense, I mean really leading out to make sure you are taking care of her outside of the bedroom as well as in it. Dates, time-off from kids (if you have them), getting her to talk about her dreams and aspirations, listening. Still leading while you are doing all this.

    I used to get hung up on "how can I be Alpha and Beta at the same time". I think you can frame many of the beta elements she needs in an Alpha way which means you leading out. ie. Jump in and help her when she least expects it. Tell her you love her when you playfully swat her bottom and etc. But look at her and really "mean it".

    My wife was in the same boat until she finally came to believe that I actually do have her best interest in mind. Once I regained her respect then the passion exploded back in again. It took several months to get her to really believe it and follow my lead on the emotional front along with the bedroom.

    I hope this helps.

  16. Anonymous says:

    to add, I really do love her deeply and I am crazy about her, so much so that I can fall into the nice guy trap if I'm not careful, and I have before.

    I think its amazing that you were able to insist (lead her) to lose the weight and not cave to the 2 days of emotional upset. What a gift to her really. She just has to know inside herself that you absolutely love her and that you won't take too much crap from her, or she won't respect you.

    I might not have had that much nerve. And I've allowed my wife to control me with that kind of emotion in the past which sent her into overweight, depression, etc etc.

    But, Athol is right, you have to have both Alpha and Beta to really get what you want out of the relationship. Its a fine line. Too much of one without the other causes problems.

  17. Mark says:

    This is a concern I have with the ultimatum part of the MAP. I can see the potential for it to cause lingering resentment.

    Anyway, at this point, I think that it wouldn't hurt to really confirm to her that you love her and would not really want to leave her. Make sure that your own attractiveness is still higher than hers, but maybe do some loving beta stuff, too.

  18. Anonymous says:

    I am a wife whose husband pulled the weight loss ultimatum, though not as a result of MMSL. And I am just as Anon 3:07's wife is. I lost the weight alright. I dress better, changed my hair, updated my makeup. We did not have sex until I was a "tolerable" weight. Once I met the bare minimum on the attractiveness scale, relations resumed. How kind of him to lower his standards. I had no libido as I had no desire for someone who would leave me because I no longer was hot enough for him. I WAS good enough to work outside the home so he could afford his hobbies and spend thrift style of money management, good enough to raise the kids with minimal help from him, good enough to do 95% of the housework AND yard work. I just wasn't attractive enough because I was overweight.
    Now that I am at goal weight, we have sex. I am no longer interested but view it as a marital obligation and I am very good at meeting obligations. That part of me that wanted to share my innermost feelings and desires with my life partner is gone and along with it went the libido. I no longer long for his touch and often find a caress annoying. I am not having an affair, nor do I want to have one. Will I ever feel the same about him? Very likely not. I certainly never dreamed that after nearly 40 years of marriage, he could do anything that would change the foundation of our marriage in such a profound and negative way. As with Anon's wife, I love him. We have a long, shared history and many happy memories. I am simply not in love with him anymore.

  19. Polly says:

    Anonymous 3:36, your comment is the best I have ever seen on the blog.

    "Are you meeting her emotional needs? I don't mean buying her flowers and all the nonsense, I mean really leading out to make sure you are taking care of her outside of the bedroom as well as in it. Dates, time-off from kids (if you have them), getting her to talk about her dreams and aspirations, listening. Still leading while you are doing all this."

    You get what women want. You must have a very happy wife.

  20. horseman says:

    My wife has always disliked being touched period. Her folks slept in seperate roms so likely a learned thing. In 23 years she has spooned me in bed exactly 6 times. Hates holdimg hands etc. Sex well ok once a month but i gave up lomg before the map so i dont bother. I can live without poor sex but no oxycotin touch is tough. That is actually the marriage ender. Question. In newborna lack of touch is bad. Is it biochemically as bad in adults. 3 more years til the kids are gone and i can leave.

  21. Anonymous says:

    Anon at 5.15. First of all, thanks for your honesty. Just curious and on the assumption (correct me if I'm wrong)that your husband has kept himself in shape, at what point in your marriage did your weight/appearance etc not become a concern for both yourself and how your husband might perceive you in terms of desirability? There quite often seems to be a real disconnect between men and woman in LTR's on this issue. i.e. a guy is perceived to be `shallow' for wanting his wife to stay in reasonable shape (not swimsuit model, just realistically healthy/sexy) and women believe it to be no longer important due to overriding family responsibilities etc. Had your husband subtly asked you to address the issue at any point prior to the ultimatum?

  22. Anonymous says:

    @anon 12:43

    Given that I don't see him stating anywhere that the physical affection towards his wife is effective, I would take him at his word and believe that he has cut down on the frequency. I'd also guess that it is along the lines of she is taking it for granted and therefore it has lost any effectiveness. Unfortunately most of us only value something when it is missing. He is making sure she begins to value it again.

  23. Anonymous says:

    I am his (anon 3:36) wife and am here to say "YES!" I am a very happy wife! Our sex life was very poor, I was not into it at all, not attracted, I didnt respect him at all, had hidden resentments I was too ashamed to admit to myself or express to him. 19 years of arguing, contention, and poor communication had added up to misery. I let myself go gaining 50 pounds and dressing poorly. Sex was a terrible chore that I tried to avoid at all costs and I refused to orgasm, making excuses about being tired.
    In the last 5 months of his taking the lead and becoming alpha this has all changed. It has not been an easy road and we are still figuring out parts of this new dynamic, but he definitely meets my emotional needs. Now that we are communicating openly and honestly (no more hidden agendas, feelings, or shame) and he is meeting my emotional needs, I have regained respect for him. I trust him. I believe what he says, and he means what he says. He leads as Captain, and I follow. This has allowed me to become attracted to him in new ways and I have been able to give him the gift of my sexuality that I buried long ago.
    During this wholeprocess he told me that he knew the only way to regain my attraction was to do this. It worked! Its happened gradually and naturally and is still increasing. Sex has been better than ever, and I give myself to him willingly and completely.
    Yes, he gets it. Yes, his wife is a very happy woman!

  24. Anonymous says:

    Husband has always been thin, but not necessarily fit. My health (b/p, cholesterol, thyroid) was excellent, actually much better than the husband's at the time he dropped his ultimatum.
    My weight had crept up over a period of about 20 years. It was a combination of overwhelming responsibility, stress, and not paying attention. I never stopped looking after my appearance. I wore stylish clothing, appropriate makeup, and had my hair done quite nicely. I received frequent compliments on my appearance. Intellectually, I was aware I was overweight, but it was pretty much a non issue, or so I thought.
    I was completely blind sided by the ultimatum. There were no prior allusions to me being unattractive to him. Just BOOM! Get thin or we are over!

  25. Anonymous says:

    She slows down because she does not want it to escalate to more than just playful. There are times when women want to be playful and know that it will stay just there.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Dude, if ever there was an endorsement for MMSL, Game, The Red Pill, this was it. You have just given me great encouragement to continue through this difficult transitional period in my journey to achieve alpha/beta balance.

    Thank you.

    K_C

  27. Anonymous says:

    I am always left scratching my head over why men marry women that dislike touch.

    Sounds like she's either a gold digger or gay.

  28. OneFootOut says:

    Yuck. I can’t staaaaand how much my husband touches me. I’ve been on the blog a few days now, looking around, and this was the first time I felt compelled to post. It’s just non-stop. He gives me no space, omg I’m cringing and want to throw up just thinking about it. It’s. Non. Stop.

    Needy. Gross. Sucking the life out of me.
    Then again there’s no alpha to back any

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