Reader Story: MMSL For The Win

Reader story, not much else to add!
Hi Athol,
Just finished your 2011 primer. I found out about your blog through TAM, then found your book via your blog. Man, you nailed it with this one! Let me give you a quick run down on the last 10 years of my life…. and how things have changed!
We married 16 years ago, after a few years, children incoming…. 4 of them, so you can imagine that was a busy 10 years (and yep, we are DONE) talk about changing your life. The wife and I used to have sex EVERY night, except for those few “nasty” days each month. Bring on the kiddos, and the frequency didn’t drop, it PLUMMETED. once a week was a feast, and sometimes it would literally be months between. After the youngest moved to her own bedroom, and we had our alone time again, I full expected things to pick up, and to be fair, occasionally they did… but most often, the schedule was like this- menses ends, sex begins… 3 nights of raw monkey sex, then a night or two off because she was tired, or a kid would get sick, or something would screw things up…. a couple nights of no sex, then another night or two of sex…. then several nights of no sex…… then after I whined and complained enough, or we got in a big enough fight about it, a night of “get on, get off, then get OFF” sex….. by that time we were usually into the PMS ramp up, and it was hands off for a week and a half until the cycle began again.
This went on for years my friend…. many. long. years….
Oh,I still got some great sex in there. We went from ONLY missionary, barely any touching, when we first were married, to fantastic, energetic, multi position, blow jobs and everything else…. when SHE was feeling horny, which was for the first few days after her cycle started again. What stumped me was that when she SHOULD have been most interested, during her ovulation time, we usually did NOT have sex. Red flag there. Now, I’m pretty savvy on biology and such, and just did not understand why it all did not add up. A few months ago, after some big blowouts, one of which I told her I was no longer sure our Marriage was worth the effort, I decided I was done. I started being very frank with her, and open about my feelings, and my expectations. I knew something was wrong, and the only thing it could be was that she had become bored in our relationship. I have been with her for 20 years, and there is no way she was having an physical affair, and I was 90% sure the same was true on an emotional affair. She just had shut down sexually towards me because I had BECOME HER HOUSE BITCH. Yep, I tanked MY own sex life by becoming too Beta!
After selling our business, and me starting to work from home at the age of 35, I took over as the primary house keeper, cook, etc. It just made sense, since I was home, and she was working, that I not make her deal with extra stuff, right? Nothing sexier than a man that turns down help and says “no hon, you had a long day, just relax, and I will get the homework with the kids, dinner done, served, cleaned updisheswashedkidsbathedbedroomspickedpupteethbrushedbackpacksreadyfortomorrowkidsinbedhousepickedup…. all while you sit and play on facebook, or watch tv….. Sexy, eh?
Well, you know exactly what happened, I figured it out a couple of months ago, and changed it. Reading your book was confirmation. I lost the Alpha. I became the beta housebitch. It was a matter of time, and my hot, wonderful wife would have been having fantastic monkey sex with some other dude… it’s not like she would never have a chance. She started a new job in Athletics, and is around jock type guys constantly, sometimes late at night. (yes, I’m 100% sure it never happened, I gave myself ulcers checking) I know it would have, believe me, so that’s why I changed. I am proud to say, I started changing before I read your book. I hope you take that as additional validation that you put in print what some guys know instinctively, and others NEED to know to keep their marriage!
So what is it like now? well, last month was the first time we have had that much sex in many years….. many, many years. Probably since we started having kids. Hot, mind blowing sex, body fluids all over sex, right up to the end of her cycle. So, I figure, “well, after it’s been like this, I can handle almost a week without it” as you probably know, I didn’t have to (insert big, shit eating grin here) to put it in your terms, I got “laid like tile” right on through! Neither of us are into vag during her cycle, and the first couple days she feels horrible bloated and her breasts are extremely tender, but after that…. WOW…. we were lying in bed, spooning, ( just undies on, another side bennie! she used to always sleep in heavy clothes) and I was very aroused… it had been three days after all! She could feel me pressing against her, and she would push back against me and move slightly, just to tease me. It was driving me crazy, so I reached around and started playing with the goodies up top, I gave a nipple a what I thought was a bit too hard of a pinch, and she came unglued! I have never realized she liked it a bit edgy and rough, but she started really reacting to what I was doing, and I figured it would get those hormones racing my way, so why not. I was totally willing to suffer a few days until her cycle was done and we could ravage each other. To my surprise, and FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR MARRIAGE, she turned over, kissed me, then started south…. Never would that have happened when she was in “her time of the month”. Well, my friend, it didn’t end there, but lets just say she let me know that there were other depths to plunge, and I was one very satisfied husband that night. The next night, after several teasing blow jobs, I took your advice, and covered her tits…. She was disappointed! It was so messy that I had covered the head and her tit with one hand so it stopped flying everywhere. She told me afterward that she wanted to see me do it. 45 minutes later, she goes down on me again, and this time she got her show.
Well, that last paragraph is pretty graphic, but I had to put things in perspective. At any time over the last several years, action like that would have only occurred in this house if it was on a porn video. Upping my game with my wife, being more Alpha with her, and working out has changed things so much. I go on the TAM website, as a lurker, and want to bitch slap some of these guys, as I wished I had been bitch slapped years ago! Finding your book showed me that I had started on the right path, and gave me more concrete avenues to approach in changing myself. I’m happy to say that the results have been very worth it. I gave my wife the book to read, I’m confident enough now that I don’t care if she knows she has been gamed. I think she might enjoy it a bit. Last night after a bout of body fluid tsunami sex, we collapsed into sleep (she gets up very early for her work). At 3 am, we were awake again, and rocking the headboard against the wall- several positions, started with spooning, then her on top, then finished doggy style (this was NOT a wife-letting-the-husband-get-his-rocks-off-so-he-will-leave-her-alone bout of sex!). Another huge orgasm for her, then back to sleep for a bit before she had to get up for work. As she was leaving for work, I got a text with a nice tit picture.
Yep, I think I can handle this new life.
Athol, Men MUST read this book!
Athol:  Thanks!
Sometimes the blog just writes itself!


  1. Dude, nice work. Pretty amazing what can happen when you start asking for what you want isn't it?

  2. That is freaking awesome! Nice job brah.

  3. @ anon- no more asking in this house my friend! a couple of racy text messages during the day, then after the kids are in bed, it's body fluid tsunami sex time. I just tell her let's go. "V" day was one O for me, and probably 6 or 8 for her over the course of the evening…. Heck, she wore crotchless panties to work and sent me a text picture to let me know. Once she got home, I was all over that! Tonight is night 5 in a row, I can't remember the last time we had sex that ,many times in one week. The side bennies of her sleeping naked now, the random bj's thruout the evening, and the sexual flirting are fantastic too. For the first time in 20 years v day here was super simple. I made blt sandwiches for me and the kids, she wanted something else, sooooo made it herself. Didn't go out to dinner, no dozen Roses, etc, here, and she was happy with it! Just like athol said yesterday, you can tell if you pass the test. not to say I didn't purchase us anything….. I did go to the grocery store and blow $10 on a jar I of coconut oil…… Athol- item one, priority 1A tomorrow- get you and Jennifer a jar of coconut oil…. It will be worth at least ONE blog post! ;-)

  4. Great Story!
    I'd love to hear some of the concrete changes you made besides working out.
    What actual steps did you take or changes did you make?

  5. What's TAM? The Google is of no help.

  6. "I took your advice, and covered her tits" … huh? Where's THAT blog post?

  7. I feel like you are where I need to get to. I don't know though if I am going to be able to get there with my wife. Last night she said she thinks we need to have "less sex" because she thinks it isn't as great if we have a it a lot. I think that's crazy. But my wife just seems to be slipping further and further into the land of no. I've said for years that when I say "giddyup" she says "whoa!" Not just in the bedroom, with everything. "Wanna go to the movies?" – "Nothing good is playing." Rinse and repeat. I'm ignorant when it comes to depression, but she just constantly tugs on the reigns. Very frustrated about this.

  8. OK… reading this post was hard for me. Here's why.

    Months ago,I started reading this blog and others. I got Athol's book. I started to try to make myself more attractive to my wife and be more intentional about asking her for sex, to be put the moves on her, etc. To be alpha because I was very beta.

    It worked.

    We’ve been married almost 13 years and honestly, I think we had more sex from May-December last year (60 times – 20 in Nov. and Dec. alone)than we had in the rest of our marriage. I know that sounds remarkable, but to put things in perspective, on our 12 day honeymoon we made love just about 5 times (3 coming in one night), and after that in our first year of marriage maybe once every 2 weeks. As the marriage went on, it only got worse… Until I discovered MMSL.

    But here's the problem.

    My wife is pregnant again with our fifth baby (conceived in Dec) and she is feeling quite a bit of nausea at night ("night sickeness" I guess). We have not had any kind of sexual activity in over a month (she is very private and does not like oral [for either of us] or handjobs). So, I have resorted to asking her in the morning when she usually feels *a bit better* (we’ve never done it in the morning – just like she's never given me oral or a handjob). During the day when I get home from work is also tough, as we have 4 kids under 9 and she is a bit uncomfortable with the idea (to my exasperation… : ) ) – again she is very private and gets very nervous about this stuff.

    I said much the same stuff on another blog by a woman and the answer I got was "be sensitive – pregnancy can be really hard" and "just keep telling her how you want to connect with her in every way" (implying sex evidently). I am struggling to know exactly what to do here. Want to stay alpha but not be a total jerk in doing so. Nausea has gotten worse – a couple nights ago she threw up several times and could not get up because of dizziness…

    She doesn't feel good at all, but she still looks so good to me. And reading this post is setting me over the edge. I so want that…

  9. Hi Flipper…

    Just sticking with the movie example… This could apply elsewhere too.

    Instead of leaving it as a question where "no" can be an answer, just frame it as a statement.

    "I'm going to the movies, you should come too." She can join you or not, but if she doesn't then you go out anyway.

    It's subtle, but you might find that it makes a big difference, not just with that example but other things you are requesting.

  10. Dude I would ask yourself if you would interested in sex if you were throwing up at night and taking care of 4 kids?

    It may be in how you are going about it. I may be in the minority here, but I would choose your battles so to speak. You may want to approach her at times when she is rested and feeling better and do it in an Alpha way. But make sure you have been beta enough first with helping with the kids etc…

    I have two young kids, I have found days when she hasn't been up with the baby, and when I am helping out a little more with the house stuff she is more receptive. But I don't approach her with a question, it's typically a statement ("Let's go, I'm taking you to bed") and she is all over it 9 times out of 10.

    So help out (Beta) approach her in an Alpha way, and choose the right time.

    Like I said, I may be in the minority here, but expecting nightly blow jobs, and sex every day with your pregnant nauseated wife may be a little bit unrealistic.

  11. I'm pretty happy for the guy who wrote in here, sounds like he is living the dream sorta speak, and so is your wife!

    Well done.

  12. Ponyboy,

    "Like I said, I may be in the minority here, but expecting nightly blow jobs, and sex every day with your pregnant nauseated wife may be a little bit unrealistic."

    Talk about misinterpreting what I said. I do help with the kids and the problem is there is no "right time" with her (obviously not while she is puking)

    Still, thanks for trying to help.

  13. Ian Ironwood says:

    As Athol says, going there to fix your marriage is kind of like going to a junkyard and viewing crashed cars to see how to repair one. It's instructive, but ultimately depressing.

  14. Ian Ironwood says:

    "Less Sex" = Gigantic Shit Test.

    Counter with, "All right, how about less sex with you, more with other people?" or "I've thought about it too . . . and I want more. Because when we don't have it often the stink of desperation precludes me from having a truly intimate encounter." or "Um, no. Don't know where you came up with that idea, but the fact is that people don't go to marriage counselors because they're having too much sex that's 'not special'. We have a problem."

    Ponyboy is correct, but you need to take it up a couple of levels. You need the Red Pill desperately, and you need to destabilize the relationship. It also sounds like you need to get your wife to a therapist for treatment of depression. But try really owning your Captainship, and quit worrying about whether or not she says yes and start pushing towards a destination where she just automatically says yes. That means you have to learn a dominant presentation, and that takes some time.

    Welcome to the MAP.

  15. I agree! In the letter to Athol that is this post, I said I just about gave myself ulcers…. slot of that was from the crap I loaded into my brain from TAM


  16. Yeah I guess I did misunderstand.

    I guess my point in general was that you may need to sacrifice a bit while she is pregnant, but if there is "no right time" that is a larger issue that I'm not really equipped to even take a crack at – not knoweledgable enough.

    I would say let her know that you need a right time and speak for yourself and your needs. But there may be some deeper issue.

    Good luck. And congratulations on baby number 5!

  17. I can sympathize with being worried about the kids walking in. This can be a bit scary. However, if this is the only time of day she feels up to it, (that dizziness and puking is horrible. I had that with mine as well) here is my suggestion. Put on the kids favorite movie, something that will give you 10-15 minutes (hell, at this point 5), warn your children that they are not to bang on your bedroom door on pain of death. Lock the bedroom door and proceed to bend her over the bed. Make it a quickie too. You might have to be happy with this for a while as she is likely to not be in the mood for quite some time. But at least this way you are getting some sex and to feel her up a bit and she is giving you some pleasure even though it is quite brief. The kids will never know what is going on.

  18. I need to reread the MAP. I'm going to talk to her tonight about my concern for her. That's a truly wacky thing for her to say. I mean, that's the equivalent of me saying I am going to actively try to make this marriage less enjoyable for her so she and I can appreciate the good times more.

    I've mentioned depression to her years ago and she just blew it off. Her upbringing does not allow her to admit to problems like that because it is considered weakness. So getting her to see a therapist is going to be a chore. But she doesn't really enjoy anything. I've asked what I can do to help her and I get answers like "be more organized" and "let me sleep more."

  19. I dont know it Athol put in a blog post about it, but it was in his book!


  20. Flipper,

    I would NOT talk to her about it! Here is where I was, and it sounds like you are near, or there already… Im a pretty beta type guy- the one that always had lots of great lady friends, and no dates. In my letter to Athol, I said that it got to the point that I told my wife I wasnt sure our relationship was worth the effort, here is the expansion on that night, you might relate…

    She was working, off around 9:30pm. We had been texting occasionally back and forth all evening, my stanard "so, how turned on are you" (no response from her) "think I can get you naked tonight" her response "have to see how I feel", on and off like that. at 10pm I get a text "boss lady needs me to show her how to deal with ______. be home in a few" an hour later, she's not home, and no text, so I stared calling and texting, several times, no response. My final text "when you get home, we need to talk. I'm not sure our relationship is worth the effort any more"

    Then I started drinking.

    yeah, that was smart.

    so, shen she gets home, real late, we get into a big blowout, she wanting to know WTF and me saying I'm tired of a sexless life. More back and forth, her concerned that I'm leaving, me telling here I cant, I love her too much, and ending up curled in the fetal postion on the bed sobbing.

    well, what woman wont get wet over that? Here is her man curled like a baby sobbing and snotting, after putting the stability of her relationship into question.

  21. Ponyboy,

    Thanks. Well, obviously its not a need – I have gone over a month after all… it is nevertheless a strong desire/want.

  22. that was the low point, and the next day, I was pissed at myself for even going there. Keep in mind, this brought NO more sex thatn any other fit I had, so as a play, it was a total loss.

    Here is what I started doing, hoping the poster above sees this too…

    since I work from home, and deal with most of the house work, and all the cooking, before I would let her come home and hit the couch. She would get on the internet and surf, or on Facebook and just veg. Now, when She comes home, I engage her in helping out- simple stuff, like
    "could you make the juice for the kids to have with dinner, or "stir this, I need to go check the oil in the car". Oh…. whenever she walks in the door, I impliment the 10 second kiss. before, we NEVER really KISSSED, just a couple of pecks.

    Peacock… since i work outside a lot, Im usually in grubby clothes. she works in an office, and dresses very nice for work. I find a reason once in a while to dress up. I can go from a visual 4 sex rank to a visual 8 just by the way I dress. Athol is probably crying bullshit to that, but no exageration. I can up my game like mad. Bright clothes- I bought this sweet red button up dress shirt…. panties get wet when I put it on… I can tie a full windsor knot in a necktie… things like that. I can game when I need it, so I started. not often, but once everyfew weeks was enough for our sitiuation.

  23. I stopped yelling at the kids. We have 4, and the can be quite a handfull at times. bellowing to get them to do something became the default. Now, I ask, then tell, then face the consequence. That has made things more emotionally stable on the homefront.

    I stopped asking "what would you like" I used to ask it about everything (beta, remember?) what would you like for dinner, what would you like in bed, what would you like me to do in the house today…
    I had reasons, but lets face it, it is not Alpha to be someones bitch. Now, I do what I feel needs to be done. If she wants something particular, lets say dusting or cleaning the bathroom, she does it. I dont run in and say "here, let me" like I used to. When she is done, I recognize it verbaly, and thank here, and go on with whatever I was doing.

    I mentioned working out… I did start, nothing heavy, im in pretty good physical shape, but I used to have an awesome upper body, very defined. I started working on that again. Panties get wet when you have your shirt off and you streach and flex the bod "innocently". Peacocking, remember?

    I Met her immediate boss friday. Kind of… He and I know of each other of course, and honestly, he intimidates me a bit… not physically, but here is a guy who makes about 4x what I make, is 8 year younger, and is a jock… well, I dropped by her work as a surprise (another thing I would never have done before) just to say hi, and as she and I were walkign to her office to grab something that one of the coaches needed, boss came back in through the front doors to get something. She was at the office door opeing it with her key, he walked in the main door 3' away, so was in close proximity to her. I was standing about 3 inches from her, just at her back. I have been teaching myself to walk correctly… head up, shoulders back, stomach flat, so when he walked into us, I was in full male position, and it turns out he is shorter than me, so here he practically walks in to us, and has to look up at me standing confidently and by proximity, posessively, over my wife. She talked to him for a few seconds, while he kept glancing at me. I stood there with a positive, but non commital look on my face, but did not acknowlage him, or introduce myself. I did this conciously, as I wanted him to make the beta move of introduction. (an aside, I dont think introducing yourself is always beta, in some instances its very Alpha, you have to have a "social sense" about it to know if you are doing it right) I figured he walked into us, he was "invading" my territory, so I was just looking at him like "yes, Im here, but I belong. What are you doing?"

    well, this is a long, crazy reply, I hope Im not wasting my time here. If anyone else wants more elaboration, I can. Things have been flowing so well, I kind of expect to wake up from a dream! Maybe its from lack of sleep? Woke up at 3am last night with the wifes hand on my tool…. apparently when we went to bed was not enough for her. Thats 8 orgasms for me since Saturday, and well over 20 for her… after we were done for the second time last night, I looke at her and asked "who are you, and what did you do with my wife?" She smiled and streched like a cat, and said that she has really enjoyd this week. This is F'ing crazy, as just a few months ago, we were arguing about not having sex! I was desperate, and chasing here constantly, now I'm getting chaffed on my tool from the constant Blowjobs, handjobs, and sex!

  24. sorry for the lentgh folks! maybe I need to start my own blog! "the Althol fan club blog" ;)

    the comments had to be broken in sections do the the limit on comment lenght.


  25. This reads like a pretty bad advertisement: Here I am overweight looking nasty and then presto here I am slim and healthy! Just read the book!

    I was hoping instead that such a long post would include some concrete examples of things that worked for the guy.

  26. Stingray,

    Wish my wife had that attitude. Thing is, she is not a "quickie" person – she really needs to warm up. Also, we've never locked the door yet, so this is something I think we need to gradually get our kids used to… "Pain of death" – no, I can't say this – it will make them so curious they will *definitely* be outside the door trying to figure out what we're doing…

    My take: she needs to become a "quickie" person – just not sure how to get there (she really dislikes the idea of these).

  27. It's going to happen for you again, just keep up the A/b balance. Pregnacny is tough. As I said, we have 4 kids, and every pregnancy was bad. She would eventually do me just out of pity, but she did not have any desire- even kissing made her stomach litterally heave.

    Be very careful my friend, as this is when your relationship is at is most vulnerable, and if you screw up, it will destroy what you have. No flirting with the ladies, I would even stay away from Porn, as you dont want those prego hormones to go off… and they can in unexpected ways as you know! One thing that I had to accept, was that her cuddling up next to me and me taking my own issues to hand (so to speak) was going to have to be enough. Fortunately, being pregnant, my wife always slept on her side, so it was not uncomfortable for her to drape a let over my let, and put her hand on my chest while I did the deed. sometimes she would kiss me when I got close, or touch. Not nearly as good, but damn, I cant imagine carrying around all that extra weight, feeling yourself get streched out of shape by the baby, and going through birth…. I was willing to forgive the lack of sex durring pregnancy, and glad I was not the one that had to cary the children!

  28. Anonymous,

    I didn't mean for you to say "pain of death" just to imply a punishment. Sorry, I was trying to be silly. We close our bedroom door fairly often, just to have 5-10 minutes to have a conversation that is just the two of us. In that way, the kids have gotten used to it being closed. (We have three under 7, not as tough as four but I can sympathize some). They know not to knock or bother us and do a fairly good job with it. Especially in the evening when they are settling down.

    I agree that she needs to learn to be a quickie person. I don't get the big O, ever from quickies, but I love to do them for my husband. They are not about me at all. That is not to say that I don't enjoy myself, I do. But the biggest point here is that it gives my husband pleasure even when I may not be feeling it. Lube might be necessary, but I love that I can give these to my husband and he loves doing them. You should try to frame them in that way. It is a wonderful way to please you, when she might not be in the mood. If she goes for this, show her how much you appreciate it as well. Becoming mommy to number 5 is a lot of work and I think she would enjoy hearing that. It will also make her feel good that she is making time for you and that you notice that she is doing this for you.

  29. It does read like an advertisement… I have not had time to get on here and post comments, too busy banging my hot wife, having body fluid tsunami sex!

    no, I was not horribly over weight, now slim and healthy. I am 5' 10", and weight 195lbs. not thin, but not a rolling tub of lard either. I am down to 184 now, and want to drop down to 170. My sex drive has increased with the weight loss, I dont know if its the excercise, or the loss of weigh. I do know that body fat nukes a guys testosterone, use that as you will.

    If you read in an above multiple post, you will get some of the concrete things I have done. I will get back on here off and on through the day, but I dont have time to be here constantly any more than Athol does.

    In a nut shell, Im doing more of "taking controll", "meeting my wifes needs" and "building and expressing my own self confidence".

    look up Athols "sex rank" info, that is mostly what I have been implimenting. I think that he puts it too simply, and my own thought is a bit different, actually encompasing overlapping categories such as your spouses love language, your self worth, and your objective sex rank (subjective sex rank being your spouses view of your, but they are biased). the center overlap of the 3 circles is the "sweet spot" that gets you body fluid tsunami sex. Just becoming a objectively sexier you without meeting your spouses needs make you a dick, and that might get you laid by some skanky party chick, but not build a hot relationship with your wife.


  30. Well I have always framed it with my wife as a need, not just for me, but for a good marriage.

    She tends to agree when I put it that way, cause she agrees that sex is important to a marriage.

    When it's framed that way you may get a little more buy in.

  31. Thanks guys – appreciate the help. I think I just need to be patient… telling her I want a quickie every time it seems it could work… Right now she doesn't want to hear that – and she simply doesn't want to show love for me in this way…. but I will keep trying, and maybe, when she sees that I am not attacking her for not responding, but keeping a good and confident attitude…she will find herself wanting to show love for me in this way.

  32. Thank you for the reply. I really need a good resource for the Alpha stuff. Like the proximity and not introducing stuff. I'm really bad with that stuff. Always the nice guy.

    As for me, I'm about 25 pounds overweight. She's still pretty tight but is getting flabbier.

    And it isn't really a total lack of sex. We have sex on average 6-10 times per month, but almost always the same way. And it's usually wham-bam, hurry before the kids come down here. It is kind of bland and not very fulfilling to me. Better than nothing I guess, but still not quite where I want it to be.

  33. And this is why readers of Sheila Gregoire's crap should just send their husbands here.

  34. Flipper,

    for me, there was a sure fire way to go Alpha… I dont do anything instinctively, I take a second and think about what Im about to do… then pretty much do the opposite. I'm sure there is lots out there about it, but taking the time to read it all, well, not my cuppa. you may be different, or have more time than I.I would start on "you" as a first move… first thing you do is some sit ups and push ups each morning. I will admit that I could do a whopping 10 sit ups, and 7 push ups when I started. pretty sad! I used t eat fast food around 3 times a week, I cut that completely. If im going to be in the car, I will grab a couple granola bars or something high fiber (filling) to tide me until I get home. I made it a policy not not drink any of my calories… if you drink soda, coffee with all the crap in it, etc, cut them. cut the junk food a bunch too…. I was the master at sitting down in front of the TV and downing an entire bag of potato chips by myself. It drove her crazy, and was not healthy for me. I still snack, I love to eat, but I cut it down by alot. Working on yourself, and your self confidence increases her interest in you, I dont think there is anything you can do to MAKE her have more passion, at least from my life and expirence. We would fight, argue, I would beg, plead, tell her how unfair it was… I as the same as you, it was not that I didnt get any, it was that I wanted PASSION in my relationship with my wife. we have that now, and as you can read, I'm stoked! Dude, I bet if you start from now, in at most two months you are going to be in amazement at how much your life has changed. Start stocking up on the towels my friend, going through 3 a night to keep the bed from getting soaked is a reality that will be your future shortly!


  35. I encourage you to keep presenting that idea to her in a positive, confident way. Quickies are just a very good solution when the wife is not really in the mood, but would like to do something nice for her husband. It's kind of hard to understand why she wouldn't want to do that, especially since your sex life had improved greatly before she got pregnant, although I know that the first trimester of pregnancy can be truly miserable. Again, that Alpha-Beta balance should really help you in this. Good luck.

  36. I don't have any advice for you except that I saw your post at Sheila's blog. Don't go there for advice – for the love of all things holy, don't listen to anything those women say. They don't know what they're talking about and it's all thinly disguised femDOM bs. Sheila's favourite sex toy: the kitchen timer.

  37. Well, I brought up a quickie in an off-hand way when she got back from an appointment today, and she basically said, "its never going to happen", and kind of got disgusted with me… I plan on talking with her about it tonight – just asking her some tough questions. The thing is – my wife is super shy – she doesn't like the idea of a 10 second kiss (or even 5) during the day (not in front of our kids), she always wants the lights out during sex, she never likes it when I come into the bathroom when she's in the tub, etc., etc.

    I know some of you are thinking: "she's got issues". Still, I love her very much and really do think she loves me. I know some might think she'd eagerly jump in with some alpha if she got the chance, but I'm not so sure. She is a very faithful -and shy – woman.

    This will take time…

  38. Have you looked at Athol's post on breaking down the shy wife? Is there any way to convince her that it's healthy for kids to see their parents being affectionate?

    I think I saw my parents kiss once in my whole life and my mom pulled away and looked all "whoops" when she saw me (I think I was around 6, but I don't really remember). All that does is make the whole home uncomfortable. It's sad when people can't be affectionate in front of kids. :(

  39. Actually I *think* I said "learning about marriage by reading TAM is like learning about cars by working in an ER."

    Everyone comes in fucked up from them. It's not exactly a clear picture lol.

  40. CL,

    Plenty of affection in front of the kids (lots of hugging, pecks, that kind of stuff). Just no even remotely passionate kissing…. : )

    I think I did read that post and concluded it wouldn't work for us… Try the *exceptionally shy* (but hot) wife.

  41. Its a great point – thanks

  42. Anonymous 5:55 pm (originally 6:37 am),
    I relate very much with what you are saying about your wife. Many details resonate such as number of children, severe pregnancy sickness with all of them, which worsened at night, "shyness", need for complete privacy, etc….

    I am a regular reader of this blog and the "other blog" you referenced. I didn't like the advice you got over there because you were basically told to lie to your wife. "Connecting in every way" implies that you wish to discuss Kierkegaard with her and have couples Bible studies. SHE may want that but you want sex, as you have clearly stated. The advice you got here, to tell her plainly what you want, is better but as you saw, she reacted badly when you did so.

    I know you admired the OP's marriage and wife but from what he has said here, his wife is attracted to a "bad boy" persona, highly visually stimulated, and athletic/with athletically oriented career. I doubt that any of that is true of your wife and so I wonder how much, if any, of his situation can carry over to yours.

    The huge frustration in marriage is that for men sex=love and for women, abstaining from sex=love. If you went to your wife and said you wouldn't expect anything sexual from her until she felt better, I believe she would feel greatly loved by you. Of course, you would feel used and put upon. If she came to you and said she was willing to do two quickies a week while the kids howled and beat each other up with the sofa cushions, you would feel greatly loved. Of course, she would feel used and put upon. Only one or the other of you will feel loved, not both.

    I don't have advice but just some sympathy about the general unfairness of it all.

  43. I don't know why either the man or woman in a relationship should feel "used" or "put upon" when helping the other half with it's needs. IMHO, this is a twisted and unhealthy view of a relationship.

  44. Yeah, I definitely need to work on some things alpha. According to my period tracking software on my droid, she is ovulating today. We have the kids going overnight to grandma and grampa's tomorrow. We haven't had sex since she made the comment about having less sex. So the table is set.

    G – we have tons in common, almost eerie. I am a house flipper so I currently work half days while the little one is in kindergarten and work my schedule around my wife's (beta). I'm also a natural nice guy (beta). So this weekend I'm going to turn up the alpha in a big way. See where it gets me.

  45. So much of Athol's work seems to be based on what is natural for the "body", what he calls Body Agenda. Much of his advice centers on working with and not against the Body Agenda. In cases where what the body wants works against what the mind wants, techniques can be employed to essentially "trick" the body into thinking it is getting what it desires. One example is that the average man who comes to this site probably wants a monogamous relationship in theory but his body would really like to experience multiple women. Hence, Athol's suggestions about lots of variety in positions, locations, all kinds of ways really. It is not natural for a man to be monogamous.

    In this case, it is not natural for a pregnant, barfing woman to even think about sex. She is already pregnant (the goal of sex for her "body") and she is ill to the point that movement and smells trigger vomiting (at least that was my experience). There is no reason at all for sex to even enter her brain and I don't know what the "trick" would be to get her body to agree to such an idea. Helping out her husband would be 100 percent cerebral and 0 percent bodily instinctual. That is where I think the resentment and feeling put upon arises.

    The husband is still the same as always. He is living with a "hot" woman and his body is telling him to have sex. Again, what idea or technique could trick his body into thinking that several months of celibacy, corresponding to the first half of her pregnancy, is actually a good idea? I don't have any clue about how to answer these questions and I don't remember that Athol has written much about pregnancy. It would make an interesting post.

  46. Polly,

    I really appreciate your words. Puts things in perspective…. you don't have a blog, do you? : )

    "It is not natural for a man to be monogamous…

    …The husband is still the same as always. He is living with a "hot" woman and his body is telling him to have sex. Again, what idea or technique could trick his body into thinking that several months of celibacy, corresponding to the first half of her pregnancy, is actually a good idea? I don't have any clue about how to answer these questions…"

    Hence polygamy. But I do think polygamy is bad for society – it certainly seems "greedy" to me (alpha males taking all the women… : ) ) Not like I have the money to support two wives anyways…

    I probably could manage the celibacy for 3 months… (its already been one – and I have resisted masterbation as well) but in a way I am cautious about capitulating to her here… I do believe one of the reasons why our sex life improved is that I became more observant (of how she treated me) and with that assertive and aggressive (in a stoic kind of way – making every effort to kill anything in me that lacked manly quality [still beta but not in a wimpy way]) – I don't want to take steps backwards….

  47. "I know you admired the OP's marriage and wife but from what he has said here, his wife is attracted to a "bad boy" persona, highly visually stimulated, and athletic/with athletically oriented career. I doubt that any of that is true of your wife and so I wonder how much, if any, of his situation can carry over to yours."

    I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. My wife is a lover of nature, a reader – and she does enjoy cross-country skiing and swimming, but she's not highly athlestic….

  48. Polly:

    "In this case, it is not natural for a pregnant, barfing woman to even think about sex. She is already pregnant (the goal of sex for her "body") and she is ill to the point that movement and smells trigger vomiting (at least that was my experience). There is no reason at all for sex to even enter her brain and I don't know what the "trick" would be to get her body to agree to such an idea. Helping out her husband would be 100 percent cerebral and 0 percent bodily instinctual. That is where I think the resentment and feeling put upon arises."

    Here's the deal though. When it comes to doing nice things for my wife that make her feel loved, its almost always 100 percent cerebral – there is nothing natural about it… Lots of the things that I do for her to try and make her feel special are not things that I particularly enjoy doing – I just do them because I know it makes her feel loved. For husbands, there is no reason at all for "flowers, chocolates, etc for the wife" to enter the mind. I do these "romantic" gestures like these because I want her to feel loved – even as I am careful to do this in a non-sappy way (try to be alpha about stuff like this: I make sure that I message that I do this for her just because I know she likes it – not to get all sappy about it). I tell her I love her often to.

    And isn't a handjob easier?

  49. It took a few Weeks to get to this point, so I wouldn't get huge hopes for a change right away, maybe even plan a ok if it doesn't happen type weekend, and do things that turn her on, but don't "go all the way". My wife would be very horny a couple days after her period ended, and we would have great sex up to the time she ovulated, she lost interest then. Last month, on the day I knew she usually was very turned on I Told her I was going to give hera massage. I sprayed my cologne lightly on her pillow, put some heated towels under the covers to warm the bed, then started my game. I had her get undressed, lay on the bed, and put r heated towels on her back, and covered her up. Had the candles lit, music for relaxing, stage was set. After she relaxed for a bit, I got out one of my silk neckties and blindfolded her. I then proceeded to give her a very thorough rub down, responding lightly to any comments she made. Any comments about me expecting sex were put back on her- "no, you're not getting that from me tonight, so just relax"… Then I would rub a hand high on her inner thigh so it brushed her crotch firmly….

    When I was done, I covered her up, got into bed and was ready to sleep. She did try to initiate sex, but I just kissed her deeply and told her she needed to lay back and relax. She ended up waking up in the middle of the night and we had wild sex. That was last month, and the sex was fantastic all month. Oh, forgot to mention that I had started the 10 second kiss whenever possible. Forget once a day, whenever possible! Age will probably push you away sometimes, mine does, but I look her straight in the eye with a cocky grin and let her.
    Hope this helps some!

  50. Im going to post a couple of emails I sent to my wife a while back. This is the real deal, these are the actual emails I sent her because everytime we talked nothing changed. They make me sick to read now, as I realize I was doing the oposite of what I was trying to do!

    Email#1, sent on 11/3/11
    "I honestly dont know what to do. Our marriage is unhealthy now because of my need for being desired, and for my need for sex. I know that you are tired at night, but there has to be something else going on.

    You probably don't realize it, but this has been getting steadily worse for the last 10 years. When we had our busineses, you were not interested because you were pretty much a single parent of small children. With me being gone so much, I accepted it, although it hurt deeply.

    I'm not sure what is going on now.

    I try to remove as much of the household pressure from you as possible with the things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, kids homework. I honestly don't want to say this to make you feel bad, although I know you will. I hesitate to even bring it up, because instead of talking to me, you just say "I don't know" or blame yourself, and get even more distant. I honestly, truly want to know what I can do to earn back your passion and desire. I know I do not do things like housework the way you would prefer them. The only things that I can think of as causing this, you say are not the problem.

    I want you to feel that you can be completely honest with me about this, no matter what the problem is. I dont care if it's how I look physically now, body odor, or you are finding someone else more attractive, or someone else is meeting your emotional needs, so you don't desire a physical relationship with me anymore. I can even handle it if you are bored with our sex life and need to experience something or someone else, as long as we talk about it, and set some boundaries so that it does not lead to other problems.

    I do not know what else I can do or say that will help. I am willing to do as much as I possibly can to work through any problems, or pain, or frustration that you may be feeling, but I need you to be willing to talk to me about it.

    I don't know what else I can do or say that I haven't here…

    I hope you will not take this and use it to pull away further, although that is the biggest risk that I had to accept when I decided to write this.
    If we cannot work this out, I want you to know that I will continue to do as much as I can to support you and eliminate the stress of things here at home from you. I dont want to keep hurting you by bringing up our sex life, so I am not going to do so any more. whenever you need me physically, please let me know so that I can be ready for you. I do realize that I'm not often upbeat and positive, and I need to be better at that when you are around. I want to be someone you desire to be with, and who is your escape from the worries of life and work.

    I truly love you, and am sorry my physical needs have caused so much pain to you. Please help me understand what is going on and what I can do for you, anything at all, so that our relationship and you, do not suffer any more."


  51. here is an older one from 10/1/11

    this is the day after I had the big melt down,Told her I wasnt shure our relationship was worth it, then curled on the bed in fetal position, sobbing.

    "If I could take back last night, I would! I'm saddened that I let myself get that emotional, and destroyed your complete faith in my commitment to you. the emotional roller coaster is from feeling sexually unfulfilled most of the time. This is not your fault. With the demands on your time that work places, and the demands on your energy and emotion that are from every thing else, you cannot be aroused and passionate constantly. I know that I cannot either. I don't know what the answer is to this. If I did, I would do everything I could to fix it!

    I think part of it is because of my personality, things build until they feel like a crisis, then once I get it out, I feel better. With last night being a combination of sex, loneliness, and frustration from you not being home when I thought you would, it hit me harder than it should have.

    I could tell on the phone that you are hurt, and I am so sorry I did that to you! "


  52. Ian Ironwood says:

    Please report back so that we can see how things go. Good luck!

  53. I suspected you were worried about losing the great progress you had made before your wife conceived. A couple months without sex is bad but the thought of going back to "before" is far worse. I think, though, that if everything else proceeds normally with the pregnancy and everyday life, there is actually a very good chance of picking up where you left off in Dec. From you wife's perspective, your lives are in emergency mode. Everything is different. She is probably not cooking as much so you are all eating differently, accepting more help from friends and family, you are picking up some of the slack around the house and doing more childcare. Nothing is "normal" so she also expects that your sexual relationship will go into emergency mode. When she can eat without barfing and stand without becoming light-headed and open the fridge without gagging, then all systems can go back to normal.
    Considering the changes you have made, I think you can be assured of good future progress. In fact, you could even start talking now about what you envision happening."I can't wait until we can resume the great time we had in the fall. Remember around Thanksgiving when we _______. I am looking forward to (March, spring, 2nd trimester) when we will definitely do that again." If you express it as something you have every expectation of doing in the near future but not right now, you make the concession to her condition at the same time you are declaring your firm conviction that this is a very temporary situation. That doesn't do you much good in the meantime but at least by spring you can be off and running.
    I will be curious how things play out. Please let us know, if you can.

  54. I think your example of buying the flowers and candy is certainly somewhat analogous to a woman doing sexual things to please her husband. A wife can overcoming her disinclination toward those activities in the same way the husband can overcome his disinclination to go out of his way to go to the florist and spend his hard-earned money on flowers that will die within days. He could be going to the hardware store and use his time and money in a more sensible and profitable way but chooses the flowers for his wife's benefit only. That is where I think the analogy is good.

    The point at which it goes astray, is the point at which feedback is coming in through physical/biological/hormonal channels, or whatever we want to call that. The pregnant woman or the non-ovulating woman can not get pregnant and so her body is just "meh" about sex. But then what if you add vomiting and exhaustion to the pregnant woman? Her body is telling her to conserve every morsel of nutrition possible (I found the best way to do that was to lie perfectly still in a dark room, trying not to smell anything). Also, getting every minute of sleep possible was important due to the unearthly exhaustion. I was fascinated when I found out that all the organs and bodily systems of the child are formed in the first trimester. The last two thirds of the gestation is just growth. It explained the unreal exhaustion, since 13 weeks is a very short time to form a complete human being.

    So a sick wife is just trying to avoid anything that will get in the way of the imperatives of keeping some food down and sleeping. It gets even more intense, hormonally speaking, during lactation. Then her body is actually giving her danger signals about sexual activity because the baby that she is nursing takes priority over a possible new pregnancy. Her mind may know that she is using a reliable barrier method of conception prevention but there is no way for her body to know that. Her body, therefore, tells her "stop" and "do not enter".

    The point I was trying to make in the first post was that the wife has to overcome whatever is telling her that someone's life depends on her NOT engaging in sexual activities. The body is trying to conserve its resources. The florist shop doesn't hold similar dangers to life and limb.

    Perhaps I am overstating the case for biology but one of the main reasons I read this blog is for Athol's presentation of how much that factor can motivate us without our being aware of it. It is still not easy, though, to use the mind to overcome the body because the body is very powerful at extracting revenge if it is crossed. Of course,I agree that it CAN be done.

    (I don't really know which thing you are referring to in your last question. It is not easier than buying flowers and it is not easier than a quickie but maybe you meant something else.)

  55. Polly,

    I thought giving a handjob would be much easier than getting flowers even… (not when she's totally nauseated of course). From a [or this] guy's perspective, this seems like a no-brainer….

    But I'm wrong, huh? That makes no sense to me.

  56. Anonymous, you paint a picture very similar to many mens experiences, and you have shared some of the steps you took to turn it around and work more on your alpha side. I for one, would like to hear much more on that side of things. I mean, when you stopped doing so much and started requesting her to "woman up" etc she must have noticed the shift and put up some initial resistance. Also, during the transitions to where you are now… did you keep relentously trying to initiate sex? Could you describe your actions you took, and the steps you went thru to get to where you are now?

  57. I will try to fill in a little more, but there was never any resistance from her. she did make a comment about me being "different", but that was it. Last night after the evenings acrobatics, I asked her "what changed" in regardes to us… ie, why were we suddenly wearing out sheets, when before it was not happening very often. her response to what changed was: "you"…. in my-wife-speak, that means "something about you has changed, but Im not sure exactly what it is".

    We have never had a bad relationship outside of the differing sexual needs. We are very compatable in morals, life view, and pretty much all other aspects. What had happened is that she slowly just lost interest in sex. We still talked, she wanted to cuddle, etc, but you know how hard it is to "cuddle" when all that means is blue balls for you. The only strife in our life was sex. if you read through the above posts, I laid out some general things, I'm going to try for a couple of specifics to help, feel free to ask more questions and I will try to respond… might take a day or two this weekend, and I have lots going on, but I will get back…

    Texting- one thing that really frustrates me and brings on the beta is texting her and not getting a response. Im not talking about immediately, but sometimes it will be a few hours. this is because of her job, and honestly there are times she just is running too much. I have even gone so far as checking our cell account online to see if she is responding to any texts when this happens, and she doesnt, so its not just me that she is not responding to. My natural inclination would be:

    text from me: "hey, how is your day going? I miss having your here next to me!"

    before, if I didnt hear from her, I would text again after about a half hour, usually something like "hey sexy, looks like you are busy… thinking of getting you naked later!"

    if i still did not hear from her soon, then I would start in with things like "wow, are you really that busy?" or "hey, can I CALL you?"

    continued below:

  58. so that is my NATURAL inclination… needy, beta doormat, begging for attention…

    now, I text, and if I dont hear back from her, no more text messages until SHE responds back to my last one. If she sends a text that ignores my last text, unless its something that is an emergency, I ignore it.

    good example is a couple days ago. we had sent a few messages back and forth, I told her that grandma had the kids, I was going into town to run some errands. Didnt hear back from her for a while, then I get a text "see if your mom will watch the kids on Saturday, I have to be here the entire day" (saturday Im not going to be home either) So I text back, "you have to be at the tornement from 8am to 7pm?" I didnt hear back from her for 2 hours after that question. She responded with "yes". I sent her back "didnt hear back from you, so I did'nt ask mom to watch the kids. when you pick them up, you will have to ask her"

    her response was "OK, I will do that"

    she was not pissed off, or anything. I treated it as a ball check (ball check= her testing to see if I still have a pair). Didnt create any strife or anything, and we had great sex that night.

    some of the other things are actively asking her to participate in things I am doing to assist me, even if she really would be slowing me down or getting in the way a bit. "Could you make the juice while I dish out the kids plates" kind of thing. I try to proactively ASK her to do things instead of letting her find something to do, or to wander off and not help.

    well, running out of time, so one last thing to respond to a question in your post about requesting her to "woman up"…. I have not requested her to do that, or honestly did I have any thought of that. I changed how I was acting because i was sick of how I was feeling, and knew that the way I was acting was pittiful, and that could not be a turn on for a woman. basically growing a pair, and being the head of my home. hope that answers some! if you have any other questions, or a specific example that you are curious on how I would handle, write it out, and i will give you my thoughts.


  59. Polly,

    if you're still here… I never said thank you for all the stuff you said above (especially about the baby being constructed in her during those first 3 months… that was awesome).

    No, last time I responded I had limited time and was therefore really terse.

    Again, when my wife is not feeling nauseated, it seems to me that expecting at least a couple handjobs a week is not unreasonable at all…. this is the frustration. If were both laying in bed together proximity is not an issue… this can all be taken care of pretty quickly. But you think this is unreasonable?

    Would love to get your thoughts before I start telling my wife I think this is reasonable, taking care to be cheerful and cocky about it of course…

  60. I guess the initiating side of things. What did you do at the beginning when you initiated and got a "meh" kind of response or a negative one? Water off a ducks back? I get the the concept but how long can one pull this off before it pisses them off? Did you just keep initiating regardless until you started to see some success?

  61. This may be a stupid question, but do you and your wife practice birth control? I don't mean to be insensitive, just saying that if your wife has difficult pregnancies and/or already feels overwhelmed that might explain some of her hesitance to have sex.

    Also, why are you refraining from masturbation?

  62. I would initiate wherever I was in the mood for it, which was often since I wasn't getting it frequently. I would get upset when she didn't want to, sulk, and generally sabotage myself. I wanted her to be passionate, , not just give in. With I started changing my response, I did it whenever I got the chance, even if I knew she wasn't into it. Remember, semen is a chemical cocktail, and you need to give her a dose as often as possible! If she turned me down, I just kept my reaction non chalant and tried again the next day.


  63. Anonymous,
    You are on the right track with the cheerful, cocky (confident) attitude but before you tell your wife what you want, I think you need to find out what is going on in her head. I am going to suggest what she might be thinking or feeling, based on the information you've given so far.

    The situation might be one in which the wife has a temperament that is sweet and gentle; she is prone to be idealistic and dreamy. Growing up, she was drawn to fairy tales in which the "sleeping beauty" was rescued by "Prince Charming". Even as she got older, that was the template in the back of her mind for what her future relationship would be like. And in this daydream, Prince Charming never asked for a handjob.

    At some point, religious ideas were added into the mix when she becomes devoted to her faith. More than likely, the teaching on sex that was coming from church was a dichotomy that was almost impossible to integrate (for her and for many women). The teaching is that sex is very, very bad before marriage and social punishment is swift and sure for females who transgress. Sex after marriage, though, is not only a duty but a pleasure and a very good thing…one of the best gifts humans were ever given.

    The wife enters marriage with some expectations, therefore, that are sure to be dashed, expectations both about marriage and sex itself. Sex is not so much the ethereal experience she was counting on but much more "earthy" than she dreamed. She learns to lose herself in sex under the right conditions, some of which probably are lights off and eyes closed. If she has a long enough warm up time, she can get into it and somewhat forget that she is doing something she still feels slightly uncomfortable and embarrassed about and something she has a hard time believing deep down is truly pleasing to God, since God is only pleased with it in certain very specific conditions. Her head says it is a good thing but her feelings have not caught on to that.

    With a handjob or quickie, she is not lost in the moment and her mind is telling her that something seems "off" about such a "clinical" procedure. To add to all this mental difficulty is the fact that she feels unsure about what she is doing technically. She feels she is doing it "wrong", even though to the husband there is no right and wrong. But she thinks that, unlike other wives, she does not know what she is doing and the learning curve is intimidating.

    Even though she may not be conscious of it, she is angry at herself for not measuring up and having so many "hang-ups", she is angry at her husband for not being Prince Charming, and she is angry at life in general which gave us such mismatched sexuality. In order to avoid all that anxiety, she avoids the handjobs.

    Know what you are up against. She needs to tell you what is going on. It might be any or all or none of the things I have suggested and she might say she doesn't know. I think your alpha response will be to assure her that you ARE going to talk about this as a couple and you are going to make a plan for how to overcome it. The beta comes in when you are sympathetic and accepting of her feelings even when they don't make sense to you.

    Maybe nothing I said here applies to your wife but the take-away is still that there is something deeper behind her disinclination for handjobs (and quickies and oral and morning sex, etc.). Dig for the reason(s). If she says "I don't feel loved when giving a handjob…", dig deeper. Keep going until you get there and then you will know what is reasonable to expect in terms of lightly pushing against her comfort zones.

  64. You MARRIED someone who doesn't like oral?

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