Rough Sex Accidentally Training Her To Be A Brat

First Reader: Thanks for taking your time to reply, I appreciate that you may be a bit busy, things are definitely on the up for us, we seem to be communicating much better especially about matters sexual, and there has been a slight up shift (3 times in the last week)

All I can say about your book, is that on most things you are absolutely spot on!  We had some pretty rough sex last night, and guess what she was all cuddly after, I could hardly believe it. 

She actually told me she was bored doing the same things, and wanted more kissing etc, prior to this it was something she had shied away from, I am taking one day at a time but a big thank you for your book, I can honestly say I have not read anything like it, it is so counter intuitive to the main stream advice, that on first glance I thought this is so crazy it would never work.

Athol:  One of the things that surprises a long time Nice Guy is that most women do enjoy having rough sex.  Maybe not every night, but certainly some of the time. It’s usually a pretty easy experiment to run to see if she likes you pounding her in the sack. Her being unusually cuddly afterward is the sign that she liked it.
If you’re not particularly excited by rough sex yourself, you can end up doing it less than she wants. So once she gets a taste of it from you, it’s possible to have it backfire in an unexpected way…
Second Reader:  My lady upsets me through unjustified bitching around. I tell her my clearly point of view, that I am convinced she is wrong and to leave me alone. Basically, I put her into place, which is hard for her to accept, but she does in the end. Often, she is passive-aggressive but can be calmed down through sexual intercourse – basically by telling her to shut up, throw her on the bed and “half-rape” her. It’s always fine afterwards and she comes back to normal after sex, often she apologizes then…
So far, so good.
But sometimes, she upsets me so much through her behaviour, that I don’t even want to fuck her, I just want to put her in place and then ignore her until she apologizes. I don’t want to fuck her, although I know it would calm down the situation. I don’t want to fuck her because my lust for her is temporarily gone and I don’t feel like doing her a favor.
So, the bitching goes on, sometimes until I hate-fuck her, which can take hours or even days and distracts me from my duties. What would you advice to do in such a situation?
Athol:  My hunch is that you only give her this sort of sex when you’re pissed off at her. You need to be driven into becoming rough with her because you’d rather not have to do it.
So what’s happening is that she subconsciously seeks to piss you off to get the rough sex she wants from you. Which means you’d be essentially training her to be a total brat, because when she’s bad you give her what she wants.

If so, the solution would be to promise and deliver on rough sex for her good behavior rather than her bad behavior. Or put another way, the agreement would be…  “If you can behave today I’ll fuck the shit out of you tonight.”
She may also quite like to be spanked. Whether that’s a light to hard spank on the ass in passing, or something more planned out would be something to explore. Potentially all she wants is stimulation from you. Basically the solution is to pay her a “firmer” level of attention before she starts seeking it out.

Jennifer: I respond to the enthusiasm of sex that way.


  1. "It's usually a pretty easy experiment to run to see if she likes you pounding her in the sack. Her being unusually cuddly afterward is the sign that she liked it."

    And her being cold, unresponsive, uncommunicative or saying something like "Don't EVER touch me again you bastard!" afterward is the sign that she probably didn't, and you've gone so far backwards no MAP on earth is going to get you back.

  2. Yeah. I found that being part of a "kinky" couple can work wonders. We'd already got into the habit of sitting down beforehand and working out boundaries.

    I know it can ruin the mood to do this beforehand, but sitting down and explaining – the more detail the better – what exactly you want to do and have done to you, well, it works wonders.

    So, in response to this, I think it might not be the pounding so much as the not getting the go ahead first.

  3. Not sure if anyone checks comments on old posts, so I am going to post this here. Wife and I sent the kids to grandma and grandpas, went out to the movies, played a board game then gave each other massages. Sounds great, except when it came to the sex acts, she denied me 3 different times for things I wanted to do. First I said I wanted to play a naughty board game called Kama Sutra..nope. Then I told her I was going to eat her out…nope. Then I said "it'd be really hot if you'd give me head before we got going…nope. She also resisted giving me a massage, and stated something like "I get to massage her" when I was doing her's. What the fuck am I doing wrong here folks? I was firm with how I stated my intentions…and got totally owned. I'm ready to just dump her after 11 years and 2 kids because I fear it may be a lost cause..she actively resists my attempts to turn more alpha. Have I poisoned the well too much?

  4. Jestin Ernest says:

    how the HELL do you consider any of that "Alpha", flipper?

  5. Stargate Girl says:

    "My lady upsets me through unjustified bitching around. I tell her my clearly point of view, that I am convinced she is wrong and to leave me alone"

    Wow! Just what we want to be told. "i'm right! You're wrong! STFU!" Oh, and put in her place? What is this, the dark ages?

    Has it occurred to you, that perhaps, YOUR"E WRONG! Maybe her bitching is justified. Perhaps you're just an ass.

    Rough sex is great, but it shouldn't be the method by which an argument is diffused. Honestly, that is abusive to me. You don't care what she thinks, therefore you fuck her to shut her up. IMHO, that is wrong. You're not leading. You're not being dominant. You're being controlling in an emotional/physical manner. Never mind she seems to get off on it. It's not sex for mutual enjoyment. It's a power trip.

  6. Flipper,

    I responded to your comment in the previous post regarding what you were planning. I think I said something like "plan on not getting any" (that's a paraphrase). Go back and read that response to your post. Keep in mind that what I related there was after doing the map for a few Weeks.

    I know exactly how frustrated you are right now, and let me say that you need to do EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what your reactions want you to do. Don't sulk, be positive and cheerful, run the Isolate moves on her, and work on yourself… Did you start exercising yet? Most of all, DON'T start thinking about going out and getting some somewhere else. No porn, no masturbation…. Believe me, I've been exactly where you are just Weeks ago, and it can change, but you have to sick to your guns here.

    Now, just run the play…. A solid offense, and you WILL score!


  7. Actually, the issue is the utte nastiness of this kind of reply. Wth is he doing with a wonan that will speak to him like that?? Reacting strongly is understandable. The verbal barrage depicted here means the MAP was doomed to fail from the start. Chances ate she'd say that about anything he'd try.

  8. I didn't ask for sex. I told her what I wanted and got rejected. Subtle difference but a move in the right direction.

  9. I started dieting and exercising a couple weeks ago, pulled off about 5 lbs so far. I'm really training my body out of the food=joy mode and it is working.

    Other than that though, I'm not going to try and get some anyplace else, not yet at least. But it is a real bitch right now.

    One good thing I see is her pulling "alpha" type of moves on me and it is so obvious that she has sex rank superiority on me right now by the way she acts. Its funny to see this in a way because within the framework Athol lays out, it is so obvious. A new paradigm sheds a ton of light on what is really happening here. I just need to consciously work at turning the tables on her subconsious acts. It is really only a matter of time and I know that. But right now it is frustrating me.

  10. How would you have done it better? Instead of just throwing this out there as a question, why not critique and explain what I could have done better.

  11. Agree! That second "relationship" sounds sick, unhealthy and doomed. Why on earth are you with her? Hint: if the answer is "pussy" there's your answer – end it.

  12. SG,
    I suggest you read the site "Taken in Hand". This is NOT my cup of tea, but there are people for whom this works.

    I correspond regularly with someone living that lifestyle and when his wife wants sex and wants it hard, she bitches at him. He bends her over.

    It's not really his cup of tea either, but it makes his wife HAPPY! It's how she knows how to relate to men.

    I think OP needs to disconnect the emotional hose and not get pissed about it, but it MIGHT be the only path on which this marriage will survive.

    Now, my marriage wouldn't survive a week like this. I'm just not interested, but those marriages are out there. They are NECESSARILY abuse.

  13. ARE NOT necessarily abuse.
    (sheesh, sorry)

  14. Ian Ironwood says:

    Flipper, hang in there. This is a solvable problem. You just need to fine-tune.

    After your less-than-desirable results, I'd withdraw and regroup in a way that lets her know subconsciously that she fucked up. As Anon said, don't get sulky or pouty, or even angry. Get determined. You now have the parameters of the sexual relationship as she defines them: It's okay for you to pleasure her, but she must have control of the over-all sexual situation. It's good that you know that, now you know what you have to counter.

    I would advise continuing the MAP but increasing the personal additions to your sex rank (new hairstyle, facial hair style, new clothes) along with a careful emotional withdrawal will put you in a position to re-frame the issue and make a more informed approach next time. But you have to destabilize, and soon.

    Ask her how she thought things went on your date night. Press her for her honest opinion. If she thought it was great, then you know that she felt in control to the point where she got what she wanted, and didn't care about what you wanted. If she had criticisms, see how many revolved around your behavior.

    In the early days of the MAP, you're really still information gathering, and a vital piece is just how critical she is of your performance as husband. How she reacts to you sexually is at the core of this critique far more than anything she says. If she asks how you felt about the date (unlikely — she doesn't care how you felt) then let her know in a calm and reasonable tone of voice that you found it disappointing and lacking on several fronts, and that it was so bad and unsatisfying that you are rethinking your whole approach to interpersonal relationships. Then walk away while her mouth is open and be elsewhere for a few hours. Days.

    But don't take it out on her. Don't blame her, not yet. Don't go elsewhere. She's not an enemy, she's an obstacle, and one you can figure out and overcome, with time, patience, energy, and cunning. You come here for the cunning, the Red Pill advice. Mine is this: back away, redouble your efforts, and start making her crazy for a while. Like, don't initiate sex. At all. That sort of thing.

    Because if she thinks that what you got the other night is acceptable, then she's just naturally gonna expect you to be satisfied with it again in the future. If she knows you aren't happy and you're doing something about it and she has no idea what that might entail then you start to reduce her comparative sex rank to yours.

    You see, when they think they've got you figured out, they deduct a point from you and add a point to theirs. When they're confused about you and your intentions, the excitement of the uncertainty (as long as the actual structure of the LTR isn't being directly threatened) is intriguing (YOU: +1) and her lack of control makes her feel less confident in her actions (HER: -1).

    Play the long Game, my brother.

  15. @Christy:

    Actually, I'd say it's a perfectly normal reaction to someone doing something you really don't want sexually. Or not getting the go ahead first.

    (As a heat of the moment thing, obviously, not a calculated verbal slap.)

    There is a huge difference between rough sex, or even rape fantasies on the one hand, and someone pounding her (which might hurt or scare someone) without permission on the other.

  16. Ian, flipper,

    I have to respectfully disagree with one thing in the above comment… I would NOT ask her how she thought the weekend went. What matters is that you don't feel it went well. She already has enough power in the relationship, asking her is beta. If she ever brings it up, just say that it was unsatisfying, and leave it at that.

    IMO, what should have gone down was more like a business transaction. You- massages and sex. Her counter-massage for me only. You- no deal, walk away.

    By all means spend the weekend doing things, but things you want, treating each just like the above example. upbeat, positive, but you get something from the deal too.


  17. Never discount the possibility that a wife has worked out you have been here, come here herself, read all this stuff, and decided to counter-plan you.


    If you marriage is, or has ever been, a power game, that's why. She sees you trying to gain power, and works to undermine it. She has deliberately decided to reverse-plan the MAP and all the alpha stuff.

    Let's face it, the playbook is neither very subtle, nor very thick. There aren't many variations she has to work out how to counter…

  18. There's people out there who like being beaten with hanks of chain, but they ain't much of a model either…

  19. "Actually, I'd say it's a perfectly normal reaction to someone doing something you really don't want sexually. Or not getting the go ahead first."

    Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

    WTF is it so far off most people's radars here that a lot of women will react like this. Unless you're at least 90% sure she's going to love it beforehand, this sort of experiment is a kind of sexual Russian roulette!

  20. Rough sex is definitely foreign territory for most nice guys. Quite the shock for instance when I found out how much some women, even the nice girl types, like to be spanked. Or pounded into the bed. Or both. Or other rough stuff. But not all women like that and some of those that do only want it done lightly. It's hard for us nice guys to distinguish that and figure it out before the relationship goes downhill because the woman who likes it rough is not getting what she wants from him. In my case, I am most comfortable pushing the envelope a little bit at a time and gauging her reaction. If she does like it at least a bit rough, then it becomes easier to talk to her about it beforehand as I can be relatively sure she won't tee off on me about it, then the boundaries can be made explicit and the "safe" word arranged.

  21. Calling him a bastard is not acceptable. I *did* say reacting strongly is understandable. Swearing at him *is* a calculated emotional slap. Cold, unresponsive and uncommunicative is also calculated.

    Fear and shock, when genuinely expressed sure doesn't involve calling him a bastard.

    I absolutely agree that guys may underestimate that "turn it up 10%" and go much more. This can be scary or unwanted. But beligerent language is not a usual expression of that fear.

  22. Exactly! Amp it up bit by bit and check in. If she's calling you a bastard, you probably didn't amp it up too much, you just discovered that your relationship has problems that rough sex isn't going to solve. ;)

  23. Stargate Girl says:

    Sidebar: hubby got me a nice little tablet today. How shall I thank him?

  24. Introducing rough sex is done by a gradual escalation of intensity or pressure of whatever you are doing. This includes pinning her down, pulling her hair, fucking her harder and harder, and biting. The important point is to watch for the cues that she likes or dislikes it and respond appropriately.

    Talking about it beforehand can work but a lot of women will deny it even if they want it and have enjoyed it before. I speak from experience in this. I happened to notice her hesitation in the denial though…. It is part and parcel of the anti-slut defense, especially for "good girls". This is once again where leadership comes in. Try what you want to try and she gets to decide if she wants to follow along or not. It is her responsibility to take care of her boundaries and safety after all.

    Unfortunately, Anon and Chudley seem to have had bad experiences about rough sex and/or the way their partner would implement it. No one is advocating throwing her on the bed and punching her in the face. If you ever hear "Don't EVER touch me again you bastard!" instead of "Please stop. I don't like that" then you should think hard about GTFO of that relationship or you are just waiting around for a domestic violence charge.

  25. Do not tell her you what you are going to do unless you are sure that the words are foreplay. Women like surprises (pleasant surprises). If telling her you want to go down on her gets her wet, go right ahead.

    You are not in a position where you are turning her on by talking, so talk less. By telling her ahead of time what you are going to do, you are giving her all kinds of time to reject you. If she is used to being in the position of power, she will not like being told what she is going to do, which leads to an automatic no so that she retains control. My ex once said to me just after rejecting my advance "I just realized that I am automatically saying know just as a reflex". She started crying and said "I don't know why. I want it to be yes". That may be what you are up against. You need to take control and manage it so her current rejection habits don't have time to kick in. Google dicarlo escalation ladder and apply it to your marriage.

    Be more mysterious alpha during sex. Don't tell her you are going to eat her out, just work up to it and do it. Do not ask for head, put your dick near her mouth. She knows what to do with it and will suck it if she wants. If she doesn't want to do something, be non-reactive and don't push it so hard that she has no choice but to harshly reject you. Plan ahead how to laugh off the rejections that you might get.

    That is what you need to do in the future when things are a bit better. In the meantime, I advise you follow Ian's 9:51 advice, including not initiating sex and cultivating the mindset that you are not needy for sex anymore. It can really change things around when you are still fully involved with your wife but don't seem interested in sex with them. I even advocate turning sex down once in a while if you ever get that option. It will drive her crazy because it is so out of the norm.

  26. Thanks, anon. That's more my point. The issues are much.larger than whether or not she likes rough sex. This is abusive.

  27. Christy, she sees being fucked hard and rough as abuse – simple as that. She fights fire with fire – simple as that.

  28. Hmmmm……. For a man, a strip tease and then a BJ is a great way to say thanks…. Or a massage and oral…..

    We men are simple creatures!


  29. Good idea, but we do that every day, anyway! Wifey is extremely generous.

  30. Flipper

    I've been running the MAP for a full two years and just starting to see results. A few weeks is not enough to see significant changes. It is long enough for her radar to pick up that something is different but you are not strong enough to change the power structure.

    Sounds like at this point we are not dealing with sex rank/attraction issues yet. We are talking about pure power issues right now. And she is still in the position of power. Ian (I think it was) or whoever said deny sex don't initiate is right on.
    Currently her power largely comes from controlling when and how sex is. She know you NEED it. So your NEED creates POWER for her. So you need to remove her POWER by removing your NEED. Quite hard for the male of the species.
    It won't truly take effect until the next time you would normally approach and or she offers/is open to sex as a reward/incentive for you to do something she wants. You need to stop the behavouir cycle. That is what destablization is all about.
    It is not until the dominant partner male or female actually feels that the power is in jeopardy will they notice any change in you.
    Until then she is literally running on autopilot, blinded by her set patterns of behaviour to any change in you. You can try brute force to MAKE her notice your new alpha. The better way is to remove her captaincy to create the void for you to step into.

    And re the second scenario I think we may be dealing with Borderline Personality Disorder here. Fits the pattern of needing love to manifest as semi abusive.

    Good luck.

  31. Anon 200 am and Christy

    I think Christy nailed it. NO ONE deserves to be treated with such disrespect. It is a sign of contempt and it there is contempt there is no view of value of the person as a human being let alone attraction. This one may be irredeemable.

    Those starting MAP should start every day with three simple questions regardless of if they are the dominant or the subordinate.
    1. Do I WANT to still be with this person.
    2. Do they WANT to still be with me
    3. What am I going to do about it.

    The first step is to understand where you are so you can decide where to go. The second is you taking RESPONSIBILITY for where its going vs where you want it to go. You can only change you and you can only change YOUR future. Don't be shackled by the past

  32. Not buying it. If she needs to call the cops, she should do just that. him a bastard and treat him like sh!t.

  33. Ditto on the BPD guess..i just divorced one. Sounds damned familiar. Maybe that's why this discussion is getting heated.

  34. I don't think she's on here. I read Athol's book last year and made it known and she just kind of laughed it off. I didn't continue to follow through during some rough emotional turmoil our family went through. And when I'd haphazardly apply ALPHA behavior it would even sometimes elicit a "ooooh big alpha male" type of response. I really had no idea of the depth I had drilled to. It's like I hit the ocean floor and then got out a shovel.

    Anyway this time, I am taking this more seriously. As Ironwood says, a long game approach is what is needed here. I took 10 years of marriage to dig this hole with my beta supplicating and misplaced faux affection. I thought you were supposed to treat them like a princess. What a sucker.

    But now I realize this is pretty damn serious. I've got two daughters and they are living in a home with a tolerant marriage at best and a fairly contentious one on the bad days. Their entire lives will be affected by my ability to follow through on the journey here. I've always thought our gender roles were confused and wishy washy. Now I realize what the source of the problem actually was.

    Long journey ahead but the stakes couldn't be higher. I'm 38 years old. I own my own business flipping houses, I have a wife with a good job and two little girls (8 and 5). If I can't regain control of this thing, I'm going to be looking back and wonder what I might have done differently.

    This simply isn't working. Game on.

  35. To Anon 11:29. That very well could be the case, however the move where I walk away and seek other vaginas is completely uncounterable if I have the proper resolve. It's unilateral and in my situation, I'll be fine financially. See unlike many guys, I can make as little or as much as I want in a year. I can do 2 houses or 7 houses. My income is up to me and be necessity we put as little on paper as possible. To quote Carl Spackler "so I have that going for me, which is nice." My nuclear option doesn't nuke me.

  36. I'm fairly sure the first comment is a troll.

    I've been over the slow increase in roughness and communcation and consent beforehand dozens of times.

  37. SG – I've experienced relationships like this. You try and be nice and she fitness tests harder and harder until you snap. It's not a particularly rational thing that is happening.

    She likes the sex rough and he's desperate to be a Nice Guy with her.

  38. Athol,

    Maybe he (I guess he) missed those posts? And, don't discount that he is in the situation that Christy describes and is just with a bitch.

    Just saying…

  39. What I'm not getting my head around here is that is the woman feels the rough sex is disrespectful to HER, she should just suck it up because she's supposed to like it really (hey, it says so here, so it must be right j/k!). This is regardless of how she actually feels.

    She calls the man a bastard because she feels he's disrespecting her, and he should kick her into touch. She's disrespecting him and that's the end of the line, but his disrespect for her is something she should learn to love.

    Something doesn't add up. This isn't about respect, but deference.

  40. No one said she shouldn't speak up. No one said she has to like it. No one said she can't say she never wants to do that again.

    If there's any hope for the relationship, she needs to do so with just a.shred of respect for him as a human being. Forget respect for her husband for a moment, just as a person. Her husband isn't her personal whipping post

  41. Anon New-ish Poster says:

    I am a new poster around here over the last few weeks, and I have a regular user name that I use and that some may recognize, so I prefer to be anon for this.

    I wanted to address the issue of rough sex in the context of a relationship, and the discomfort it may stir up in the man, feeling like he is a rapist.

    Two years ago I was raped. The man who raped me was someone I had met on an online dating site and had gone on one (1) date with. I decided it wasn't something I wanted to continue, so I declined to go out with him again. The following weekend he showed up at my front door, forced entry into my home, and raped me. He beat me, gave me a black eye and a bloody nose, pointed a gun at me. He told me he would kill me if I didn't comply with him. In short, it was a terrifying experience. Also, he is a federal police officer and thus the local law enforcement service was not too keen on assisting me in getting justice. (Read: he walked free, no trial.)

    My point in describing this experience is to give you some idea of where I am now. I am in a relationship with a wonderful man, and we are planning to get married soon. Our sex life is great together. Early on in our relationship I did have concerns that I might have a PTSD-style freakout during sex, especially rough sex. My worry about this possibility was nearly paralyzing. It caused me so much anxiety it nearly killed the sexual aspect of our relationship. Finally, I told him that I was having this worry, that I was kind of embarrassed about it, and it was really churning up a lot of stomach acid for me. There was once an occasion where, during sex, I had to stop due to some PTSD symptoms, but he handled it like a champ — assured me it was no big deal, snuggled up to me, kept his arms around me and assured me over and over that I was safe. (It is a little embarrassing for me to admit all this — it was very upsetting at the time that I had a freakout.) Bottom line, my *worry* about a potential freakout was much worse that the *actual* freakout turned out to be.

    Also, I love sex. I love oral. I love vibrators and toys. I love my Sybian. But most of all I love love LOVE good old-fashioned man-on-top missionary-style pounding. I love it rough. It doesn't make me feel abused, it makes me feel desired.

  42. I already said I think it's a troll Chudley. You're trying to make sense of someone who purposely seeks to not understand the post and inflame things.

    If she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it and you don't do it. If she likes it, she likes it and you do it more. You don't jump to crazy rough all at once, you slowly increase things to see how she responds. You talk about it together.

    It's really not complex.

  43. Didn't know where to post this question but will go ahead.

    It seems that the last few posts and many of the husband's comments and replies to comments run along the same theme. The theme is that the sexual relationship has improved if the frequency increases and especially if they are getting more BJs and handjobs (and maybe throw in a different position).
    I can see where this might be more pleasurable for the guy but don't see how this is all that much more pleasurable for the woman. She gives him more orgasms but she gets what?

    My husband is all for the BJs and handjobs but he is very particular as to how they are done and he wants them to go on a lot longer than sometimes I have the stamina,jaw and mouth strength for or even interest in. I find myself wishing he would just cum already and sometimes partway through I just feel utterly bored. It doesn't make me want to do this for him as often as he would like. He also pokes and pulls on my breasts during these times not to get my interest but because he is using that to add to his stimulation.
    I have asked for several changes to add to our sex life (sex toys, learn more ideas for sexual together time,play a sexy game,etc.). He will never do any of this and then wonders why he doesn't get the frequency he'd like from intercourse. He just says he has no interest in those things and we just need to have sex more often (and I_ just need to give him a BJ or handjob more often).

    As a shy wife it has taken a lot of effort to even let him know what I would like to do to pique my interest and since he doesn't seem to want to do any of those things I am now embarrassed I said anything. I also look at some of these "success" stories and wonder why I don't get all excited at the idea of giving more BJs or handjobs . It seems like these wives are all wildly turned on now but I don't understand the transition or why the things they weren't doing before now turn them on!!

    He doesn't like to kiss much or do slow sexy neck kissing or anything like lifting my mouth up for a kiss. I miss that kind of stuff.

    He just says we need to have sex more frequently (complains about me) but what he means by sex is more handjobs,more BJs ,no kissing,little foreplay and intercourse in a perfunctory way. I tried to do it his way for three weeks whenever he wanted it and he seemed to like it just fine but I ended up bored and depressed. He probably felt things were going a whole lot better in the sex dept. but they weren't for me so I just dropped off on most of it again.

    I guess I'd like to feel wildly turned on like these improved marriages show but don't know how to get there.

  44. Oh no! That really sucks. Being in the happy group of wives, i'd guessthe difference is that my hubby *does* the neck kissing, holding me, creating comfort…. And he took the time to learn what turns me on. He knows i'm willing to give him bj's, but he ABSOLUTELY reciprocates.

    MMSL focuses oh what *I* can change, but I can't imagine anything I'd be able to change in your situation.

    Everybody, help! Is she sunk??

  45. At work so have to make my comment quick. RE: Anon 8:07 comment. If doing what your husband wants sexually is an Alpha move on his part and a dominant move why doesn't it get me or other women mentioned here turned on more? Just wanting it,insisting on it, withdrawing from her or destabilizing might,I say might, get you more sex but is it getting her more turned on? I am skeptical having tried this a little. It was more but not any better.

    When I tried this what he liked doing was more but still centered on him (viewing porn he liked, oral sex on me which isn't that great to me and more handjobs and blowjobs for him.)

    Isn't it remotely possible these men are not good lovers ?
    There are certainly plenty of stories on here of cold fish wives but not many confessions of men admitting they don't think they are that good at lovemaking or any admittance that what they like their wives may not.

    Long ago I made love to a very handsome man,very fit and successful also but he was lousy in bed. Tried again several times but it never was better. Considering he later played the field with quite a few women in his life I wondered if they quickly found out the same thing I did and he just kept telling himself that he was a great player with so many women coming in and out of his life. Could husbands reading this blog get more action but be leaving their wives in the same low interest dilemma as before?

    And about the 10 second kiss mentioned several times for God's sake men brush your teeth,use a mint or some mouth spray or gum or something. My husband wants to do this in the morning (doesn't brush his teeth before going to work) and coming home at night when he has still not brushed his teeth and has been eating and drinking coffee all day. Yuck! And yes I have mentioned this but it does no good he just stopped kissing me. Nice.

  46. Hee,hee also at work and not getting anything done after looking up old and new posts here.

    What do you do if you are a super shy wife but sexually curious and interested?Add to that I am very submissive.
    Would like nothing better than to be initiated with firmly and to try things at his instigation. I'm so submissive it turns me off to do any suggesting (it feels like we have switched roles). Try to be enthusiastic and cooperative whenever we have sex but I would just love it if he told me what to do to him,for him or with him. He just doesn't understand and he thinks if I don't initiate I'm not interested. Maybe I was born in the wrong century where my "duty" would be to serve his pleasure. Just daydreaming…

  47. Athol, thanks for the reply.

    I get the last bit – just move on.

    What I don't get is how all these guys here are huffing and puffing about her being "disrespectful" and not getting that the woman might feel disrespected too, or if they do, that it doesn't matter because, well, she's a woman.

    Hey, if you want to take the kid gloves off on other people, don't get bent out of shape when they are similarly careless of your finer feelings ;-)

  48. Don't you get it? Her orgasm isn't his responsibility.

  49. "Could husbands reading this blog get more action but be leaving their wives in the same low interest dilemma as before?"

    Yes. Husbands might be getting more simply out of guilt, fear or obligation. There's a post on here that says it isn't the husband's job to sort out the W's "sexual problems" and another that says the role of the W is irrelevant, providing she's giving out plenty.

  50. Then I'd say his orgasm isn't her responsibility. Let the selfish putz jerk off! It would seem she's just become a vending machine that dispenses blow jobs and hand jobs. Sex is supposed to be a mutual pleasure.

    Sorry, Anonymous at 8:07, but that's what your man is behaving like. You need to loose the shyness and be very upfront, very direct about what you need to get turned on so you will therefore, be inspired to turn him on. Go ahead and buy that sex toy; use it alone if you need to.

    I'd also make an appointment to see a marriage counselor together; one with an emphasis on human sexuality.

  51. If a man or a woman is a bad lover it's because they aren't interested in being a good lover. Athol's blog is about being the best version of you that you can be i.e. upping your sex rank so they DO get interested. That will work for a good percentage of the marriages that have "normal" people. But, there are those of us married to narcissists. You don't need a psych. evaluation to diagnose. Does this person try to meet your needs with actions? When they know you have needs and you've expressed them clearly do they WANT to meet them? If they don't then it's not love and it's not marriage. It's bondage. Choose your poison: tolerate, cheat, divorce. Improving yourself doesn't work with a narcissist.

  52. Some men are just terrible in bed and always will be, despite their good intentions.

  53. Intentions are worth nothing…EVERYONE has the capacity to be a good lover. They have to WANT to be and use some effort. If you're not worth the effort, he's/she's just not into you. OR, they will never be into anyone as they are into themselves. AVOID these people. And if you're married to one of these, run, don't walk to the exit.

  54. Then, try some anal! hehe!

  55. "…viewing porn he liked"
    That just sounds like selfishness to me and a more tit-for-tat strategy needs to be implemented. Change it up with either insisting on porn that you like or no porn at all. It would seem to me that these husbands who are 'upping their alpha' yet their wives post messages like the two above really probably need to actually up their 'beta' instead. "Look! I'm more of an asshole! Now give me a blow job! What? Your jaw is tired? The girl on the video wasn't tired yet, how come you are?"

    Remember, alpha and beta are two knobs on the tuner, not a single knob to turn to one extreme or the other.


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