If She Doesn’t Want You, Others Will

As I’ve repeatedly stated, the MAP isn’t always going to make your wife more attracted to you and save your marriage. But it will make you more attractive to women in general and put you in a better place to attract women after a divorce. This particular reader tried for well over a year to turn things around and she still pulled the plug on him.
Reader:  I just want to pass this on to you for what it’s worth.  As you know, I came upon your advice too late to save my marriage.  However, I took to heart your observation that whatever happens, working the plan is to my advantage: it would either help save the marriage or put me in a better position afterwards. 
I was married for a long time, and I’m not 25 anymore, so a lot of the PUA stuff out there is not really for me.  But the basics of pickup and MMSL are the same.  Confidence, humor, playfulness, etc., so even though I’m more or less a mess after the divorce I’ve focused on not letting that show – and definitely not leading with it, which might have been my instinct fifteen years ago.  Beta.
The end result is that it’s awfully easy to create attraction.  Twice in the past month, I was surprised to hear girls I was with comment that we had, “good chemistry.”  In fact, it’s almost too easy.  The progression from the meet to the date to the bedroom is seamless, and I have to remind myself to be careful not to take things too far too fast.  I feel like I could make them crazy obsessed with me if I wanted to, and if my conscience would let me get away with it. 
Athol:  I’m happy for you. At least now you have real proof that the trouble in the marriage wasn’t you. If you can pull other women with ease… that’s not a bad thing.
Stay up. Keep me posted.


  1. Anonymous says:

    I went through the same thing. Picked up MMSL as things were starting to crumble. It was too little too late unfortunately as things were already dead for her (though I had no clue it was that bad at the time obviously).

    Fast forward to 9 months later, its all coming together now and I like the reader finally see the proof in the pudding. I easily take over groups now and can command attention/attraction so easily it makes me laugh/wistful at how poorly I operated before. There is light at the end of the tunnel if you're willing to do the work, the world is truly your oyster…

  2. Anonymous says:

    I'm not 25 anymore, so a lot of the PUA stuff out there is not really for me.

    I have a question regarding this. Athol or anyone else, could you recommend a good PUA/Game training company that either specializes in or caters to single men in their 40s and 50s. I'm 41 and sadly not 25 years old anymore. Would the Mystery Method work at this age? A 41 year old doing magic tricks and opening up 6 sets? Really, I don't know.

    Any recommendations would be appreciated


  3. pdwalker says:
  4. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Anon 8:25

    There are a profusion of Game blogs for older men, although the one I recommend would be The Private Man. He's working game in a small town in Florida, and he's in our age bracket. He's also fairly insightful and a good writer, which helps.

    It's important to remember, however, that the fundamentals of Game are the same regardless of your age. While there are differences in Married Game and Single Game, as well as Young Game and Mature Game, the core is the sexual attraction response in female psychology, how to trigger it and how to exploit it. Mystery's specific methods might not work for you, but between Athol, Mystery, Roissey, Roosh, and others you should be able to master the basic scales. After that, it's you variation on their themes that will make the magic happen.

  5. Anonymous says:

    " At least now you have real proof that the trouble in the marriage wasn't you."

    How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    There are lots of men who can attract women but cannot get/stay married to one. Is that not one of reasons for this blog? Married Man Sex Life, no?

  6. Anonymous says:

    Is this what we can expect from men? To have a gaming technique used on us until we are bedded and left? Just another notch on the bedpost and hopefully without a disease from their frequent conquests? I hope I am not single again anytime soon,it makes me shudder. Is this what you want for your daughters and sisters? Gaming may "work" but isn't there a cost for women here that is rather sad and possibly for healthy relationships of trust between men and women?

    There is still an implied "should" or "must" list here for wives. The man follows the MAP and the woman should or must respond with increased interest. All you have with the men writing in is their word for it (no one to blame for that circumstance) that they did the MAP and it didn't work. Does this mean the wife was very wrong to still be uninterested in this man? Do not be so quick to judge. A man can work out, add some income and flirt ,etc. but have some core issues as a man and husband still present. Marriage is complex and it is unknown if men following this blog do not succeed because they did not follow the MAP thoroughly or for long enough a time period. Or maybe they have other unaddressed issues as husbands and fathers that cannot be improved with the MAP. Do you see some of the comments from women stating how they tried over and over to get through to their husbands? Were they all just a bunch of cold,nagging females unaware of how great they have it? Really, ALL??

  7. Anonymous says:

    @Anon 6:24

    The MAP has nothing to do with you. It has to do with him. The MAP is not a pill, a cream, or a 60-minute video with some get-your-wife-horny-schemes. The MAP is HARD WORK. When he has finished the MAP, he will be:

    - Physically fit
    - Be a person that his wife MIGHT want to follow
    - Be a person that his wife MIGHT be attracted to

    Most men who have found this site and start running the MAP are already in a relationship that they do not want to be in. The MAP gives them a guideline for determining if it's time for them to move on or not. And when they move on, they will be ready for a better relationship.

    What you choose to do is your business. You do NOT have to show increased interest. But if your husband loses 30-40 lbs, begins taking charge of decision making so that you don't have to, helps out more around the house, etc., the ASSUMPTION is that you will respond positively to this. But if you don't, someone else will. Your advantage in this is that you have first dibs at a relationship with this person. If you choose against it, it's his option to walk.

    Your comment shows that you have no idea what the problem is in your marriage. You use words like, "core issues," "complex," "unknown," and "unaddressed issues." You do not know what the problem is. You are only stating that there is one. Perhaps by letting him run the MAP, you will find that the nagging issues that you cannot articulate will be solved. And wouldn't that be something that you would respond to with "increased interest?"

  8. Sometimes too many fights or silent treatments along the way harden the heart. Especially if the fights were dirty (name calling). Resentment can be permanent.

    Not to mention if there has been a past of the obvious marriage killers: physical abuse (of spouse or children), alcoholism, infidelity, or drug abuse (including prescription pain killers).

    It is reasonable to believe that trust may never be re-attained, nor deserved.

  9. JR…

    I would read up on different "game" sites and choose what you feel is most comfortable for you and suits you best.

  10. Anon @6:24am

    "Is this what we can expect from men? To have a gaming technique used on us until we are bedded and left?"

    You're projecting.

    You assume that there aren't females out there who WANT to be bedded and left.

    Game in general to me, when applied properly, is about one thing – self-improvement.

    In any relationship all we can do is improve ourselves, we can't force others to change.

    Properly applying "game" to their life shouldn't be about bedding women, it should be about making themselves better Men, Father's, Husbands etc…

    More sex will likely just be a natural consequence.

  11. JR @ 8:25 PM –

    For what it's worth, MMSL clearly attracts many readers in their 40s and 50s. Men and women, married and single. So don't feel left out.

    I think you're on the right track to recognize that much advice and insight isn't particularly germane to a 40-something single guy. But much is. Your task is to identify what's meaningful to you, and apply it.

    As a small f'r instance, here is a link to Badger's post on engaging in conversations that build emotional rapport. Age won't stop me from trying this with my wife.

  12. The Outsider says:

    It's clear what Athol means when he said, "the trouble with the marriage wasn't you," but I would suggest the opposite conclusion is equally valid. The trouble with the marriage was the reader, and we know that because once he got his act together things started working better for him.

    Anonymous, the distinction you make between attraction and staying married is a little misguided. If you think about what it is that most guys struggle with – what Athol is correcting – it's an excess of "beta" and not enough "alpha." It seems to me that as a first approximation alpha is about attraction and beta is about comfort. So the typical guy with a failing marriage is actually struggling with attraction. In other words, staying married for most of us really involves many of the same skills as attracting women. Athol uses the phrase "gaming your wife." Exactly.

  13. Been there.. says:

    Anonymous – 8:25
    The first thing you need to do is change your perspective that you are "sadly not 25 years old anymore". Seriously?!? Don't think that! I am a hot, fit, beautiful (I'm told), educated, classy, 49 year old female. The men who are attracted to me and have the guts to ask me out are younger range (35-40). Yipes!! I DON'T WANT YOUNGER!! I'm looking for a fit 50 year old man who is playful, intelligent, mature and enjoys gaming (not MW3!).You have so much to contribute to a relationship because you are 41! It's a positive. Work on yourself, get happy, fit and take an interest in the world around you. Sexually attractive people are smart. Athol doesn't talk about it much but smart people ARE sexy, add a fit body in there, some emotional honesty and some alpha confidence and lookout! Uhh…one disclaimer; you actually have to be smart to enjoy smart.

  14. Anonymous says:


    thats a dark dark road

    (with great results)

  15. The key point is "if you're willing to do the work".

  16. What I Learned from game/Evo psych is that women don't know what they want. I did questionnaires and such with my wife and and she consistently told me giant lists of beta things, which I fulfilled ASAP. This only made things worse. I realized when I landed her in college I was A1 alpha cocky, but since marriage and kids I was nothing like that. A large injection of game and passing fitness tests have been a world changer. The first times doing this stuff I would think there is no way this would work, followed by being amazed at the reaction I would get. I figure that is why it is appropriately referred to by the red pill analogy; it changes how you perceive things.

    Athol's book was a kickass handbook for saving time researching it all. Science is good.

  17. Sometimes as a woman, it's hard to admit to even ourselves that we like the alpha stuff. we WISH we didn't like it cause beta guys are the ones who make good husbands – take care of you. I think one of the reason's Atol's blog is so excellent is that he pushes the idea that you can and should have BOTH. You don't trade one for another. And he pushes alpha from a responsible strategy, not from an asshole strategy and that really is something that feels good on every front.

  18. The Outsider says:

    Anon @6:24, that's not really a fair interpretation of what's going on, here. You didn't read either the "reader" Athol quoted or the first commenter blame their wives. In fact, the most likely interpretation is the opposite of what you suggest. They seem to be taking on a large share of the responsibility by saying, "I had to change, I didn't do it soon enough."

    You don't have any information about what the wives' roles were in any of this. Maybe they tried to get through, as you put it, maybe they didn't. Maybe they were nags, maybe they weren't. Maybe they were screwing the milkman. You don't know. And nobody's even mentioned any of that as an important element.

    You're fighting a straw man.

    That being said, the statistics suggest that you are being far too kind to the wives in giving them the benefit of the doubt. The large majority of divorces are instigated by women. I'm sure you'll argue that their husbands left them no option. Maybe. I find that pretty implausible, but whatever. Even if you're right, here at MMSL you find examples of guys who have taken it on themselves to do what they can to fix their marriages. You can't make somebody else happy, but at least you can make yourself the kind of person that somebody else could be happy with if she was of a mind to. If you want to stick up for all the poor, poor women trapped in loveless marriages, you're probably in the wrong place. These women had husbands who were consciously trying to make things better.

  19. My husband takes care of me best when he delivers those beta elements with an alpha frame. It's a mix.

  20. if.you.see.kay says:

    This combination is something that I had to deal with my whole life. I say "deal" because it was confusing for kid growing up this way. To always feel self assured and confident well never feeling comfortable anywhere or at anytime in my life is f***ing strange. This behavior confuses and frustrates adolescent alpha males and I would often end with us in physical confrontation initiated by them yet they never really have a good explanation as to why. Maybe it was in the fact that they believed I was beta yet I was still giving off the vibe of a threatening alpha. And when it came to girls, they had no idea of what to make of me and that intrigued. the hell out of them. From te ages of 15-18 I was never seeing anything less then 3 girls at one time. I never had to lie to them, we were always just friends, they all new I had other friends and they usually did too. I always treated them right. It would never get to my head and I would only hang out with girls that I genuinely like but even though it was fun I eventually grew out off it an at 18 I had my first child and I married my wife who I truly cared about and enjoyed being with anyway since that was the only type of girls I would spend my time with. Fast forward 15 years and we're still married, we had 4 more kids and I'm happy and content and never wish to go be back to my younger days. I enjoyed them but I also enjoy now. I can still feel awkward at times though it becoming a lot less frequent which is due to majority but I know that it will always "some what" be there. It a part of me and I wouldn't want it any other way.

    probably because I'm the only person I know that can be comfortable with feeling awkward…I'm such a weirdo

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