Ignorance Is Bliss (But Facebook Can Fix That)

There’s a double standard because the sexes are very different around the studs vs. sluts issue. In a general sense I advise both the man and the woman to have as limited of a sexual history as possible. I believe that’s been a massive benefit to Jennifer and myself and our happiness. However I also advise very strongly that you need to be assured that you have a good sexual chemistry together before you get married. I can tell you dozens of horror stories of those that have deeply regretted waiting until the wedding to experience sex with their spouse.
In the comments frequent and appreciated commenter Doug1 said:
I think it matters VASTLY more that the prospective wife have a fairly and ideally quite low partner count for lots of reasons. I think it’s actually better for the prospective husband to have a good lot of sexual experience. It’s better for the captain first mate dynamic if he’s teaching her some things sexually, from a starting point of her having lots of hunger and enthusiasm.
To which my reader Technical Virgin emails me both quotes and asks:
I read somewhere that every sexual partner a guy has before he’s married reduces the likelihood of sexual satisfaction in his marriage. Also, you’ve mentioned the insecurity issue of being with someone who’s had a lot of partners. Kind of seems like a big risk for a virgin to take–increased chance of infidelity and serious insecurity in the sack?
What say you Athol? Should virgins hold out (even longer haha) for a guy with a low/no number, or do the virgin and the Mr. Many Experiences have a shot at happiness?
Athol:  It’s basically a case of having a low sexual partner count for both the woman and the man, seems to create longer lasting and happier marriages. It is a bigger effect for women, than for men.  That being said, these are simply influences on outcomes and not destiny. There’s double-virgin horror stories and slut+stud successes.
The old joke is that you can’t make a ho’ a housewife, and neither do I think you can easily make a player a stayer. I can see how some sexual experience under a man’s belt makes him look good to women in a general sense that he can actually attract women, but after a certain point it all becomes a little bit icky doesn’t it? Once a guy is up in the 20+ range you have to start wondering how rancid some of those holes were.
Also in this day and age, there’s actually zero reason to need prior partner experience to know some sexual skills. This is not 1950 where a teenage boy could only imagine what a girls naked breasts looks like unless he managed to convince one to take her top off. There’s books, DVD’s, toys, websites and enough porn freely available on the Internet to crash the computers on the Starship Enterprise. I mean you thought Genghis Khan saw a lot of pussy…
Half the fun is discovering things together and trying stuff out. Bedsides that, not all women are the same and what works for one doesn’t work for another. It’s the practice together that makes things really click. Prior experience might get you through the first dozen times together more easily, I’m not sure it matters at all after that.
And yes I completely get that “banging everyone” really sounds like fun. I’m not immune to wanting to do that either. Trust me on that account, I write a freaking sex blog, I’m horny as a goat eating three square meals a day of horny goat weed. But at the end of the day, when we’re together, it really is special to me that the only woman I’ve really been with is Jennifer. It’s also special to her that it’s true as well. There’s a mutual cycle of appreciation for being each others only, it helps bond us together and create a sense of what we have is special. So when we talk about having sex every day together, I think all that plays a serious part in our success. When the double virgin strategy works out well, it works out really well, it’s just not newsworthy so it seems a lot less visible than it really is.
If I had sexual experiences with more women, I know I would very much enjoy them in the moment as I’m not shy about body parts or technique. But I’m not convinced that I would be as happy as I am now as a whole if I did that. In any case, Jennifer can get me off amazingly well and it would take months to train someone else to replace her. She gets better and better too, her latest trick is after a lot of foreplay getting me off just by squeezing her vagina on me. I think the correct term for that is ninjutsu.
Plus the insecurity issue isn’t exactly limited to “Am I the best she’s had?”, because any serious prior lovers, or even Beta Orbiters never go away anymore. You’re always one Facebook search away from her old boyfriend private messaging her. You’re a pre-paid phone from Wal-Mart away from her sending naked photos of herself back to him. Old flames can burst into an inferno very quickly. Marriages have their ups and their downs and old lovers emailing her during a down can turn into critical incidents.
The stats I heard on the radio one morning driving to work late last year was that Facebook was now credited as a factor in 30% of divorces.
So yeah you can certainly try it with Mr. Many Experiences, it’s just a influence on outcomes, not destiny.  Ultimately the best target for both sexes is someone that clearly has a good sex drive, that can contain it to one other person.

Comments

  1. Anonymous says:

    Thank you for clarifying!!

  2. Anacaona says:

    Outstanding!
    One more for Team Virgin/Low count. :)

  3. Humans are innately curious. It's how we've ended up here.

    Any plan that depends on members of a species like that deciding to remain ignorant appears to involve the triumph of hope over probability.

  4. Dreadpiratk says:

    On the other hand, there is something called self control. Athol has done yeoman's work here pointing out that, morality aside, self control can also be in your own self interest.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Exactly. It's another case of, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." Or ultimately want to. I love hiw Athol points out how much better his relationship with Jennifer is since they were onlies from the beginning.

    I ended up with my first love. But, we both had a few in between our first relationship when we were young and now. Even though we didn't have sex then, we still imprinted on each other. We're able to let the middle part go, but I still wonder "what if." But, we're treating each other like our only now. No Facebook antics. total bonding. It does take a suspension of reality, so I'm here to support Athol's theory on low partner count.

  6. thanks to that.

  7. I really appreciate your arguments in favor of the virgin/low partner count strategy. I know you are going against the grain of much of the manosphere and sex blogging sphere in advocating that strategy.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Yes, it's possible to find people friending exes on Facebook, but people usually cheat with coworkers, neighbors and friends in your social circle.

    Coworkers aren't going to chit-chat via Facebook.

  9. Dreadpiratk says:

    I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but it seems to me that we bond with every person we have sex with. Call it spiritual, chemical or emotional, whatever you like, but a bond is formed or perhaps cemented with intercourse, like it or not. We are just not built to bond with very many people. Each time you do it with a new person the bond gets weaker and weaker. This happens more quickly with women then men, but it happens to everyone. If you want to be as firmly bonded to another person as possible over the long haul make that person your first, or as close as possible. On the other hand, within the LTR intercourse reinforces the bond each time you do it. That's it's purpose.

  10. Anacaona says:

    ITA.
    Is very funny that this is the same argument of fat shamers have. "I don't care if a woman craves food all day I won't get involved with a fattie" I do agree with this but why would they think sex is different? Just because you might crave sex with many partners doesn't mean that is a good idea to actually act on it.
    Of course the consequences of lots of sexual partners are in the personality and relationships so is not as obvious as 50 pounds overweight but I think anyone that thinks promiscuity is harmless is very naive we all know the type that cannot keep it in their pants or can't keep their legs closed I don't think anyone believes they were just born this way.
    Doug1 himself has to keep fucking other women on the side no matter if he has a partner because he cannot quit control his cravings for variety so obviously he has been affected by his "experience" but is incapable of seeing it as a bad thing. So his advice of men having a lot of experience means so they can never truly commit to a woman is bizarre and not effective in the long run, YMMV.

  11. Anonymous says:

    I think this is absolutely true.

  12. Anonymous says:

    All through this website you find "this is biology, you can't beat biology" "this is an evolutionary response, she won't be able to help herself" "this comes from the hind brain, you can't control this response", and yet here it's all about self control overriding evolution. A less charitable reader might think you're just making it all up as you go along…

  13. Anonymous says:

    Lousy sex doesn't bind me to anyone. I just start thinking about all the things I need to get done tomorrow while I wait for him to finish pretending he's a porn star.

    Being in love binds us to people. Hopefully the person you're in love with is also a good lay.

  14. Well the way I see it, you can accept biology being a HUGE part of people's choice while asking for restrain in the most destructive parts of it. You cannot pretend to have a faithful partner just out of their word without you making any effort to remain attractive but your partner shouldn't get a free to cheat/abandon card just because the marriage is less than perfect or they are not "haaaaapy".
    This is called moderation. Ni tanto que queme al santo, ni tanto que no lo alumbre.

  15. Anonymous says:

    There are plenty of people that are not suited for marriage.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Is it possible to remedy promiscuity with periods of abstinence?

  17. Anonymous says:

    Sorry, is it possible to remedy the *effects* of promiscuity with abstinence, for instance before starting a serious relationship with someone who's had less partners?

  18. Anonymous says:

    Why would you want to? Bring your sexual techniques and experience to the table to be enjoyed by your partner.

    Just because you kissed a lot of frogs before you found your prince doesn't mean you're in need of a "remedy."

  19. Those people are probably not reading a blog with "married" in the title.

  20. Athol Kay says:

    All through this website you find "this is biology, you can't beat biology" "this is an evolutionary response, she won't be able to help herself" "this comes from the hind brain, you can't control this response", and yet here it's all about self control overriding evolution. A less charitable reader might think you're just making it all up as you go along…

    The entire point of the website is to understand biology in order to be in more conscious control of our sexual relationships.

    A less charitable blogger might just think you're a troll.

  21. The MacNut says:

    Affairs happened before Facebook. What Facebook and sites like it do now though, is make it easier for an ex to find their former lover. If they've both got Facebook pages, it really is as simple as doing a Facebook search on their name.

    Thanks to the wonders of modern technology, a past ex is just one private message, text or email away from becoming a present problem.

  22. Anonymous says:

    No, what I mean is, you can't spend half the time saying that the biological / evolutionary / hind brain impulses are totally irresistible, and that no woman can stop herself reacting this way, and the other half saying that she can. These things are either irresistible or they're not. They aren't both according to whatever today's message is. Either biology trumps concious thought all the time, or it doesn't. But if self-control can trump biology in this case, it can with all the other things that you say no woman can possible help herself from doing because that's how she's evolved.

  23. Athol Kay says:

    I've never said they are irresistable, I've repeatedly said they are influences.

    One of the primary themes of the blog/book/MAP is that your wife may not respond to your attempts to change things, but even if she doesn't, you're in a better place to attract someone new.

    I use plenty of behavior modification ideas as well. I simply point out the ways she is already predisposed to act. Hitting on her when she ovulates is a classic example. She can always decline the sex then if she likes, but she is strongly influenced to have sex when she ovulates.

    Essentially you're complaining that I'm not taking a side in the Nature vs Nuture debate and sticking to it. Both play a role in MMSL.

  24. I agree with Anacaona. You can't control attraction, but you CAN control your ACTIONS. If we couldn't, we would be like dogs.

    Athol teaches you to generate attraction over your wife, and if you are married, she doesn't (or shouldn't) have to control herself.

  25. Anonymous says:

    I understand the exes were before Facebook. But most cheating is done with new lovers, and mostly with co-workers or neighbors.

    Most of us do not want to have anything to do with our exes. New is exciting, though.

  26. Anonymous says:

    No, I'm saying you nail your colours to both sides of the debate depending on how it suits what you're trying to say that day.

  27. "Lousy sex doesn't bind me to anyone. I just start thinking about all the things I need to get done tomorrow while I wait for him to finish pretending he's a porn star.

    Being in love binds us to people. Hopefully the person you're in love with is also a good lay."

    Hamster alert.

  28. Athol Kay says:

    Blog posts are short and aren't a Master's Thesis paper. There's no way to write a carefully evenly balanced post every single time without turning the blog into the most dense and dry reading experience.

    Both biology and behavioral choices are at work. My book very clearly reflects that is my viewpoint, as does the whole of the blog.

    You're obly taking issue with the words you put in my mouth.

  29. Anonymous says:

    "I also advise very strongly that you need to be assured that you have a good sexual chemistry together before you get married. I can tell you dozens of horror stories of those that have deeply regretted waiting until the wedding to experience sex with their spouse."

    Athol – what kinds of horror stories (could you do a post on this?) Short term (wedding night) horror stories or long term? What kind of long term horror stories? What kind of incompatibility are we talking here? (size? I.e. the "rabbit man" or whatever from the Kama Sutra). I just have a real hard time trying to figure out why any "incompatibility" cannot be overcome – especially if both people were virgins.

    Hope you have time to answer this. I confess that I have religious reasons for writing as I do now. But I really do want to hear what kind of real evidence you've got for your assertions here.

  30. Dreadpiratk says:

    Which is an excellent example of what happens when you have multiple partners.. eventually you can't bond to anyone, even when you want to. Fine if you want to be PUA the rest of your life, problematic if you want to get and stay married. Trust me 'being in love' only lasts so long, and not as long as you think. No long term marriage survives on 'being in love' without the unique bonding that true sexual union can bring, and once you've 'burned out' that ability to bond you can't get it back easily. Why do you think people with a low partner count are so much more likely to stay married?

  31. Anonymous says:

    I'd be really curious about these horror stories too. It seems sexual chemistry can be felt strongly even within an abstinent relationship. So it's not likely you will find out on your wedding night that your spouse is a closet homosexual or asexual or not sexually attracted to you. I can't think of other reasons except disfiguremnt that really make two healthy individuals in love sexually incompatible. Ok maybe some sort of weird fetish developed through watching porn. But that can't be too common and can surely be negotiated and healed in a healthy loving respectful relationship.

  32. Athol Kay says:

    I know of one lady that discovered her husband had a micropenis on her wedding night. I've had many emails where the marriage begins as a sexless marriage and stays that way. Several bride freak outs on the wedding night. Some erectile dysfunction stories and some gay ones.

    The difficulty is that if one half of the couple is in love, they tend to be blinded by that emotion. If the other half of the couple is purposely hiding something about their sexuality, the "virgin until marriage" line acts as the cover for that.

    I've also heard many stories of the "she lied about being a virgin" too. With cheating happening during the engagement.

    All that being said, I don't have stats for that, just emails. So decide what to do with is as you wish. Frankly I think marriage is a huge decision, I don't understand why you wouoldn't see if it works together or not.

  33. Anonymous says:

    Well, we both were virgins and it worked out well.

    Now… not so well that I didn't need MMSL to help me out though (thank you), but it was never a disaster…

    I don't know, it seems that a "bride freak out" could be fixed eventually. All that others stuff (erectile disfunctions, homosexual inclinations, "micropenis") seems like stuff that honest people would be concerned to *talk about* before things get to serious.

    So maybe, character – how well do you/can you know a person? – could be the thing you want to be sure about…

    That's what I'll be telling my kids.

    Thanks Athol.

  34. The MacNut says:

    Having a micropenis is something most men won't want to mention except maybe under torture. Maybe. And I can see a woman who's never laid eyes on a penis (since she's a virgin) freaking out at the sight of one-especially if she's not really in love with the man it's attached to. Or even if she is…

  35. Anonymous says:

    As a virgin and “never seen a penis” girl, homeschooled and married to my first/only just three days out of college, I can attest to the situation everyone seems to fear. Our wedding night was gentle and special and wonderful. It is probably hard for someone with lots of experience to imagine having none before committing to someone forever. I think, though, it can be compared to the decision to have kids together. You can babysit and keep nieces and nephews for a weekend and all that, but you cannot do a trial run of pregnancy and those dreadful/wonderful newborn days, episiotomies and hormones, to make sure neither of you have any issues and can make it through the first kid. You simply have to get to know each other and read up a lot and love each other through the hard spots, and agree to go get counseling if some big issue does show up.

    As sheltered as I was, I didn’t “freak out” at the sight of my new husband’s body–I wasn’t stupid, and knew he had parts I didn’t. Duh. It was amazing seeing all of that for the first time, but I wasn’t some quivering, bashful, flannel-clad prairie muffin who would only undress in the dark and lay there terrified. I think that my limited experience actually let me be more confident because I already had the security of a wedding vow and a deep friendship and love for this man. No one had seen me naked and then left for someone else. Even if you’re engaged and then have sex to check for compatibility, I think you are taking a huge risk emotionally. I can’t imagine thinking we were meant for each other and then having him decide AFTER we tried sex that I wasn’t a good fit. Talk about dealing with scars in the next go-round! If you have doubts, wait and talk and get better premarital counseling.

    And for what it’s worth, my husband was also a virgin, though he had porn and guy info going into it. I don’t recommend getting your sex ed from photoshopped photos and full-time strippers. There are plenty of blogs books and articles about how to have hot married sex, and that is a better place to start, IMHO. Porn is like training for the Appalachian Trail by eating twinkies. Calories, yes. Enduring Sustenance, no. Healthy mind and body, no. Distaste for the Cliff bars in your pack, yes. It just sets you up to expect and value the wrong things.

    For some background, bc im posting anonymously–We are heading toward our 13th anniversary, I’m 33 and he is 35, both college-degreed professionals, 4 kids ages 4-11. We have a great sex life, easily averaging 5x a week, with plenty of fun and experimenting and satisfaction and lingerie. And I have many friends who started out as naively as I did, with similar happy lives.

    Hope that helps someone. :)

  36. Anonymous says:

    Oh–and sorry to be rude! I appreciate your blog! The Alpha/Beta concept is very, very helpful. Our world seems to groom guys for betas and girls for alphas, but it doesn’t make most people very happy that way. Any thoughts on raising boys to be confidently Gamma? I have three, and I cringe at the demeaning way many girls/women already speak to and about them in groups. I don’t want arrogant chauvinists but Id love to see them grow up confident and proud in their manhood. Not many parenting books address this.

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