Is There Hope When She Never Was Into You?

Reader:   Athol: There are two types of women writing in.
1.) GF who has orgasms and initiates sex prior to marriage, but loses interest in husband over the years. He begins MAP, wins back the happy days.
2.) GF who does not have orgasms and fakes enthusiasm, marries BF, and then continues to fake enthusiasm under self-imposed ultimatum of “I’d better do this or he’ll find a mistress who’s into orgasms.”
Can the MAP even work in situation #2? Or is he just wasting his time with a wife who’s either gay or asexual?
Athol:  There’s an old cartoon of a groom bragging to his best man that the best part of getting married is that his fiance gives great blowjobs and he’s going to get blowjobs every day now. On the other panel the bride is telling her maid-of-honor that the best part of being married is that she doesn’t have to give blowjobs anymore. I’d show you the cartoon but the Internet has approximately 149 million images of “cartoon blowjob” and it’s not in the first 17 million I looked through. Also in what I hope is a temporary side effect, I am now having stream of consciousness sexual fantasies of Lois Griffin blowing me.  I’m not sure what the precise term for that is… perhaps the word I am looking for is “sick.”
Anyway…
Typically the sexual experience before the wedding sets the high water mark of what her sexual response will be to her husband. As you age together and have sex repeatedly you can certainly gain in skill and knowledge of each other and have much better sex later in the marriage, but in terms of the basic interest in you, before the marriage is as good as it gets.
Or put more plainly… Jennifer is way better at fucking me now than she was twenty years ago, but she’s into me about as much now as she was then.
If the wife was faking orgasms and sexual interest before she got married, she will typically stop the sex after the wedding as quickly as possible. The less interested she is in her husband sexually, the faster the drop in sex will be.  The excuses and BS will come thick and fast and she’ll only be interested in sex exactly when she’s ovulating if even then. Unless her husband makes some kind of truly remarkable transformation upward in Sex Rank, she’s not likely to ever become interested in him sexually.
Most of my readers that run the MAP and succeed probably had themselves particularly together before the wedding when they were actively courting (i.e. Gaming unconsciously) their wives and then let it slip / got Betaized after the wedding.  So it’s like he was an 8 before the wedding and the sex was great, then he fell to a 6 and the sex stopped, then he finds MMSL and gets himself back to an 8 and the sex comes back.
There’s also a compounding of her disinterest when a man allows a woman who obviously has no sexual interest in him to marry him. It is the very worst display of Beta Orbiting / Chumping and that lowers her interest in him further.
My only advice is to make damn sure she is into you sexually before the wedding, and make it plain that a sudden drop off in sex for no good cause after the wedding won’t be acceptable. I suppose I’ll have to cover how to tell if a woman is faking orgasms tomorrow.
Jennifer:  Oh great, now I’m envisioning myself as Lois Griffin blowing you…disturbing…

Comments

  1. "So it's like he was an 8 before the wedding and the sex was great, then he fell to a 6 and the sex stopped, then he finds MMSL and gets himself back to an 8 and the sex comes back."

    Or he gets back to an 8 and is no longer interested in the sex with his wife who herself has slipped to a six but still expects him to respond to her like she is an 8. And he is getting tired of waiting for her to get in shape or even try, even though she is showing some interest now, in the sex.

  2. Anonymous says:

    Guys, try watching her use a vibrator. If you make a mental note about which muscles tense, breathing, noises, her face (and toes!), you'll always be able to tell when she's putting on a fake show.

    Easiest fake position is doggy-style, where she insists you pound hard & fast. You can't see her face, and most fakers will make waaaaayyyy more noise than they would if they were actually climaxing. This position will also ensure that the deed is over and done with ASAP.

    (Fakers also typically dislike cunnilingus, as it drags out the whole sex event too long.)

    –Jaz71

  3. dannyfrom504 says:

    Jen killed me. that was perfect, "OOOOOOH ATHOL!!!!! hehehehehe."

    i'm still scared to death of marriage. i tell a joke to women: "what's the best way to bring a woman to orgasm 100% of the time?" the wait intently and i deliver the line…

    "who care's?" wokka wokka.

  4. Anonymous says:

    If that's what you're into…How 'bout you, in the the nude, pretending to be Lois too…

  5. Anonymous says:

    The first part of this piece of advice obviously can't be applied to wives who find vibrators disgusting and to whom the whole concept of them masturbating is alien.

    The other giveaway is "lay there like a sack of shit no matter what the husband does, tries to do, or suggests", and when he asks what will work for her shrug, say "dunno" or "You should just know".

  6. Anonymous says:

    Why on earth would you marry someone who just lays there like a dead fish or who hates adult toys?

    What did she like before she tricked you into tying the knot?

  7. tacomaster says:

    Athol, this post and the previous post "If that's what you're into" brought out very serious and bitter emotions towards my wife. She wanted us to wait for marriage but assured me she had a strong sex drive and had a "need and want for it". The first six months were like 1-2 a month and I almost filed for divorced. She said she felt "guilty" which is most likely from her warped view of Christianity. I suggested porn so she could get some ideas (because it was always on the bed, at night, missionary-telling me "just do it"). She was adamantly opposed to porn (her mom threatened her dad with divorce over it)even though she's never viewed it. She actually thought they were actors and only having simulated sex. Long story short–she always orgasms when I go down on her but everything seems so mechanical and scripted. By that I mean it's always in the bed, always missionary, etc. There's no passion involved. Although we are up in numbers, like 2-3 times a week, most of the time I dread doing it now. It feels like a chore, like just more work for me. The 10 second kiss suggestion was very helpful btw which is why it's up to 2-3 times a week (although she's not into foreplay). I've been using your methods and she is strongly opposing me, telling me I'm a "woman hater" when I am dominant and take the lead. What do you suggest when beliefs interfere with having a healthy sex life? I strongly believe her mom also f'd up her thinking big time. Sorry so long.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Athol, this post seems to indicate there is no hope for me other than starting over. I am married 25 sexually starved years. She seemed into it until about 6 months before we got married, then stopped citing feeling guilty about the premarital sex (we are Catholic) and promised it would pick up after marriage. We had sex one time during our 8 day honeymoon, and since then it has been twice a month ovulation and day before period sex at best. In the last 5 or 6 years even that has tanked so much that last time was 3 months ago, and last year was 4 times. She's let herself go, gaining some 80lbs since we got married while I am within 10 lbs of my wedding weight. I make good money, enough to support her being a SAHM and sending the kids to private schools. Like you said in one of your responses, pretty much all women look good to me now and while I have been tempted to pursue, I have not. My point, is I think I already outrank her in sex rank by several points. Is there any prayer of pursuing your MAP doing anything for my relationship, or is my only option to ready myself for an exit when it becomes financially viable (i.e. when the kids are out of school..which is another 10 years)? I'm over 50 now, so waiting seems to also put me into declining years.

    –Mr Feeling stuck and ripped off

  9. Athol Kay says:

    There's usually some hope that she will start pulling herself together and improving to an 8 too, but agree that it doesn't always happen.

  10. Athol Kay says:

    She has no sexual interest in you and/or in general.

    My question would be what happened six months before the wedding as that appears to be the change point. Catholic pre-martial guilt seems like BS in that she didn't have guilt before then and after the wedding the "guilt" didn't resolve either. Just seems to be an excuse for not having sex with you. I have to ask, but was she involved with someone else and that relationship stopped six months before the wedding?

    In anycase no matter the cause, she'll never be interested in you sexually. Agree you have been ripped off.

    I don't see you waiting ten more years before you want to make serious changes.

    Oy… four times in a year. What's the tally on the Hooker Math per lay?

  11. Anonymous says:

    Thanks for the reply. I don't know what happened then, she still will not say despite my asking numerous times. At about that time, her father found out she was spending the night during a snowstorm and came by to take her home. I agree she's got no sexual interest in me, that is patently obvious, especially the few times she does as she is obviously not into it then. As far as I know I am the only one she's had…or at least that is what she has told me. She also claims to not masturbate, will not entertain using toys, will not wear lingerie, etc.
    So, the hooker math, well that works out to something like $50k/lay. Ouch. With all the kids, her being a SAHM and the way our state does alimony and child support, I'd be totally broke if I split right now. After reading your writings, it sounds like there really isn't much hope for getting her to find any sexual interest in me.

  12. Ian Ironwood says:

    This is where destabalization and even Dread come in. But you should give her a few fertility cycles for her body to realize that she's in danger and change accordingly before you proceed with such tactics. More than likely, she just needs a little more time for it to click that –CRAP! When did he get hot? And who is that blonde talking with him?

    All Game is Long Game. It isn't magic, it's method.

  13. Athol Kay says:

    You're going to have to expose her to sex positive material and slowly lure her to getting more and more enjoyment from it.

    Porn is probably way too much for her to handle at this point, you should be aiming at explicit sex ed rather than porn.

    It's going to take some time. It sounds like you've made a lot of progress to date though.

  14. Anonymous says:

    I got ripped off too. Good premarital sex, but then huge stresses starting 6 months before we married took down the frequency. Then after they were mostly resolved, the sex never really came back. Found during a huge fight that she only married me to look good to her family. That was the turning point putting me on the road to divorcing her. It did not help her cause that we had sex just twice during the last 9 months together.

    At least there were no kids so I dodged that bullet.

  15. Ian Ironwood says:

    Hmmmm…

    This isn't going to be easy, but it isn't impossible.

    Firstly, the "woman hater" comment shows that you haven't adequately convinced her that you are the Captain. Her calling you a woman hater is essentially her calling into question your authority AND your masculinity. Next time she does it, call her on being disrespectful, leave the room, lower the temperature, and tell her that you will more than happy to resume the conversation when she is willing to apologize for her disrespect. It might take a couple of days, but a few days of low temps is going to be instructive. Wait her out. DO NOT allow anything else to be said until she apologizes for her cheap shot.

    Next, in a neutral setting, remind her about her assertion that she had a decent libido before the wedding and hold her to account on it. Either she was lying to trick you into marriage or (more likely) she had no freaking clue about sex in the slightest, and figured that the occasional gina tingle meant she had a need and want for sex. That's false advertising, false pretenses, whatever you wanna call it, it's false. Make her own it. When she admits that her initial ideas about sex were far from the mark (and light-years from what you wanted) then you have a place to start.

    Next, make her study. Regardless of her guilt complex, she married your ass and is required by her religious principals to favor her husband in some way. 3 times a week of unenthusiastic pokage is not acceptable. If she's ignorant about sex and her body, I highly recommend Sinclair Institute's Better Sex series, a fairly clinical approach to basic adult sex ed. Insist on sitting down with her and watching the videos from start to finish without an expectation of sex. But if she's suffering from 19th century ideas of what is proper and improper in the bedroom, you're going to have to aggressively re-educate her about her own body and about sex in general.

    Good luck — it's not going to be easy. You might have to start being a bit of a dick, but sometimes the Captain has to do that before the FO realizes that he's in charge. And if you don't do that, then nothing else is going to run smoothly. Good luck!

  16. Athol Kay says:

    Unless she can come up with a proper story, I'd just assume she was cheating on you back then. Her father yelling at her for being a slut doesn't seem to be enough of an explanation for 25 years of sexual disinterest. You are most certainly owed an explanation.

    Run the MAP anyway, you need that for you.

    It would seem that your remaining choices are toleration of the situation or going outside the marriage for sex.

    She's put you in a terrible situation where I know you don't want to be.

  17. Ian Ironwood says:

    Yeah, I'd hit her with some serious cold temps and a dramatic Dread-inspiring performance. If you don't destabilize, there really is no impetus for her to even consider changing.

    I don't think it's hopeless. I've seen women late in life suddenly rebound into a more sexually-aware place. But it's rare, and it almost never happens without a compelling reason.

    If she understands that you are considering leaving/having an affair, that might be enough to get her to investigate her own sexuality. If not . . . then start your exit strategy.

  18. horseman says:

    anon
    ian and athol are bang on. i am in the same boat as you. 20+ years in to a fridgid wife. ran the map and am plannimg exit strategy. in some cases, mine for sure, there is an underlying predisposition either learned or character to not like sex. some just dont. running the map will trigger a change to keep you as ian says but watch for the nature. my wife sensed the change and has accepted fo position by being very wifey. even getting more chore sex. but like yesterdays column, who wants someone not into it. she wamts me as provider amd friend but i honesstly believe she will never want any man sexually to any great extent.
    i have had to decide what i want. a friend with no sex…no. fool around..cant do it ethically. or leave a good woman to find a sexual one…choice. this makes departure even tougher. hating a cold bitch would be easier. leaving a good person who cant help who they are tougher.
    to be clear the map had a huge clear response in attitude attention behaviour for the good. sex just isnt in the cards. so you have to run the map and see if it is a beta issue, a power issue or like me a non sexual issue. good luck withwhat hoi choose

  19. Anonymous says:

    Mr. Ripped off, it doesn't sound like she was cheating during your engagement, but rather she was spanked by her overbearing parents for not waiting till marriage. If she was still living with them, they probably made some house rules about you.

  20. Anonymous says:

    Alternatively, do the MAP in order to get YOURSELF to a better place and leave. The chances of you being able to do what Ian Ironwood suggests without building the worlds' biggest resentment shitpile in her are somewhere between vanishingly small and non-existent.

    Example: "When she admits that her initial ideas about sex were far from the mark ". She will probably go to here grave before admitting this.

    Leave. NASA put a man on the moon with less effort and a far greater chance of success.

  21. Anonymous says:

    I've seen people recover from life-threatening conditions and go on to live long lives without sequalae. On the other hand, most of them just die. Spectacular recoveries are spectacular precisely because they are rare and unusual. It's great if it happens, but as a plan to rely on, it's piss-poor.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Just have the affair. If she's a SAHM, she knew she was taking a serious risk in not screwing you with enthusiasm and not learning how to have orgasms.

    Dollars to donuts, she's staying with you for the money, too. Cheat away — she's stuck.

    –Jaz71

  23. Anonymous says:

    You can re-educate, dominate and cold-shoulder someone into doing something.

    You can't re-educate, dominate and cold-shoulder them into liking it.

    Getting your wife to pretend to be enthusiastic out of a sense of contractual obligation or in order to avoid a cold, snotty attitude isn't a long term strategy.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Horseman, leaving on good terms is actually better for your relationships with your kids. You will still bump into the exwife at birthdays, weddings, etc. The adult kids will appreciate that the two of you don't hate each other.

    –Jaz71

  25. Anonymous says:

    Athol,
    Great discussion! I am in the same boat as ROI, Tacomaster, and Anon. I'm running the MAP, reached Stage 3, did the ultimatum, and now get regular sex with it being mostly chore(4 to 6 a week, no bj) and she has opened up to alpha approaches. But, she's still fat, aged quite a bit (hit the wall), and has a very limited sex repertoire. It might as she claims, asexual or non sexual, or premenopausal. Could you do a post on this? It would be great. BTW, married 17 years and am age 57.
    Thanks for all your advice, it really worked!
    Mike

  26. Maybe a Christian book that has a very positive view of sex, like Sheet Music by Kevin Leman. I know that one book won't do much, but it could be part of your education "arsenal."

  27. Anonymous says:

    Mike, if she's giving you duty sex in response to your ultimatum, are you ok with this? Seems like a very temporary and shallow "victory," like telling a teenager they can't borrow the car unless they take out the trash.

  28. Anonymous says:

    Isn't this the whole point? YOU CAN'T ULTIMATUM THEM INTO LIKING IT!!!

  29. I think it is highly plausible that the combination of "her father yelling at her" and the Catholic guilt could have been enough to traumatize Anon's wife around the issue of sex. She just may not be aware of how devastating the parental rejection was for her. Added to that would be the religious implication that God is similarly displeased, an idea that again, might not be consciously acknowledged but the 80lb. weight gain may belie what she actually says to herself and others. It sounds as though she could be struggling with self-hatred.

    That said, I agree with Athol that the purpose of marriage is not to save or rescue the other person. But perhaps for his own peace of mind, Anon might want his wife to explore the mental health aspect of the problem. Counseling, meditation, EMDR, EFT, bio-feedback, hypnosis, etc., could be one of the conditions when and if the ultimatum stage is reached. Those are just various suggestions off the top of my head…..anything that would help move past the long-held trauma. Only he knows if it would be worth sticking around to see if that helps but he does have a lot of time, money, and emotional investment already put into his marriage.

  30. Anon 11:35, absolutely!

    In order for the older wife (40+) to respond from her "soul", she may need stimulation of the soul.

  31. God, I can just hear Lois Griffin say that. I should cut back on family guy episodes.

  32. horseman says:

    Jaz et all
    re leaving. as anon said he would be broke as he is a one income family. in my case i make 100k but witha 20 year SAHM with no job skills i have to assume running two households plus put two kids through college on one salary. and up here in canada i am in a 35% bracket and we cant write off mortgages.
    so for me and anon we choose to make the best of a situation rather than expose our kids to poverty and risk thier futures.
    and my main point is map can fix the overall relationship but in some cases tje sex is irretrievable. so we balance our sexual needs vs the overall needs of the family. it is not rarionalization hamster. we did the ultimatum and she changed what she could just her natural sex drive is minimal. if i was less uptight i would affair but i cant do it personally.
    some of us have to make hard decisions then live with them. thats the trick. choose what you must but EVERYONE lives with the outcome.

  33. horseman says:

    agreed. no sex is better than the emotional baggage of chore sex. just find a way for physical.release as needed. thats why we have opposible thumbs.

  34. Ponyboy says:

    This is why no one wants to be married to a hole in the mattress. Sex is up, but if it is because she feels obliged I'm not so sure it's worth it. Up to you I guess.

  35. Or Sex God by Rob Bell

  36. tacomaster says:

    Thanks everyone for all the good advice and replies. I'll look into those books you guys recommended. I can't write much because I'm at work right now.

  37. Anonymous says:

    Hi there-
    So, My wife seems to be into me, I am working on the MAP and upping the Alpha to make that more so…
    We have good sex. Not frequent enough for my liking (4-6x/mo), but it is getting better. So, my question is about vibrators…
    I have a 'love-hate' relationship with her vibrator. It has been part of our sex life for years now, and she really needs it to get off. She just uses a little bullet that she puts on her Clit and it helps bring her to orgasm. I would like to be able to do that for her, she likes me going down on her, but isn't really excited by it and she will pull me up and I start screwing her and she adds the vibrator and she is happy. I like the vibrator as it helps her have great orgasm – she very rarely or never will if no vib, and it means that I can cut out a lot of foreplay and get right to business. other times it is a case of she isn't in the mood, but she'll be ok with a quickie and the vib gets her excited and she has a good time and an orgasm too. Sometimes she is horny and just wants to have an orgasm and she 'uses' me-she rides me and uses the vib and has an orgasm (i don't mind being used for this!) usually this is when she didn't have an orgasm during sex and she still wants one. Most of the time she prefers having my dick and her vibrator. Am I over-thinking it and just go with it as that is what she is into and what works for her? or is she not really into me and needs the vibrator to get through it.

  38. There are many things I'd love to say, but I think the most productive comment I could make is this:

    To those of you in 20+ year marriages who love and enjoy your spouses but are having no sex or unsatisfying sex – I highly recommend that you read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. It's about developing passion and intimacy in a long-term marriage and, yes, sex is the main topic and it is discussed openly with lots of examples. My husband's favorite chapter is, "Doing, Being Done, and Fucking."

    Dr. Schnarch is a world-renowned sex and marriage therapist (*real* credentials).

    We started the practice of going to bed an hour earlier (and yes, we have kids to deal with, too) so we can read together. Passionate Marriage is the second. Getting the Love You Want was the first. We read about 10 pages every night and we almost always end up talking about what we've read and how we feel about it, and what we want. Our agreed-on default is that we plan on sex every night after we read – so we both need to be ready for it – but either one of us can choose to bow out of the full experience, but that doesn't get you out of "doing" the other person. For example, if I'm "not in the mood," I still need to give him head. If *he's* not feeling up to it (pun intended) because every day is a lot of pressure – most men couldn't keep that going), then we pull out one of the many toys we've purchased for such an occasion and he gets to do me. Half the time, that gets him in the mood.

    However, all of this started by just agreeing to read together and talk about it – a prescribed time, every single night.

    I think many people (both men and women) fail to understand a couple of key points:
    1) Just because you are "not in the mood" doesn't mean that your spouse should not get sex. There are lots of things in life we do whether or not we are in the mood.

    2) The more you have sex, the more you want sex. A woman who hasn't enjoyed sex for 25 years is not going to get struck horny no matter what you do. But starting to have sex, and hopefully more adventurous sex, will breed the desire for more.

    Finally, and I hate to say this, but a couple doesn't get into a situation of 25 years of lousy or infrequent sex just because the wife isn't into it. It takes both partners to get into a situation. IT will take both to get out.

  39. The Woman Formerly Known As Beautiful says:

    I'm loving this conversation and really feel for all the men being short-changed here. When I was single in my early 30s and wanting to marry I was always surprised that men were afraid sex would stop after marriage. I had no clue sex would take a nosedive after marriage. Now I get it.

    Athol — I find my husband sexually attractive. More now even than before we married (we're together 15 years now). However, I desperately miss the beginnings of a seduction. The first kiss, the chase. Recently I made my husband role play with me at a bar where we pretended we didn't know each other. But I'd love other suggestions.

  40. Anonymous says:

    hey anon, I say use the vibrator as a stepping stone. Just experiment around it.

    As an example, my (ex)husband never ordered food at a restaurant that he was unfamiliar with. He was afraid that if he tried something new, and it tasted awful, that he'd go hungry (and had wasted his money.) I am a big foodie, though, and love to try new things, and eating something great is an experience you want to share.

    So at home, I would make a brand new main dish but also make 2 filling but familiar side dishes that I knew he could fill up on just in case he hated the new food. Eventually he got braver and more experimental in restaurants.

    So try some new positions, different methods of cunnilingus, and anything out of Cosmopolitan Magazine, but let her bring the vibrator. This way she knows she won't go "hungry."

    –Jaz71

  41. Anonymous says:

    You might pick up a copy of Kosher Adultery by Boteach. Lots of good suggestions for creating that feeling again…

  42. Anonymous says:

    Hi, Horseman. Looks like you've wasted half your life with the wrong woman. But the good news is that you have the opportunity to use your mistake to guide your children.

    –Jaz71

  43. Do you watch the show Modern Family?

    If not, you should check it out, it won't help your sex life, but there is a pretty funny scene where two people are doing the role play in a bar.

  44. As a whole I don't know how to comment on all of this.

    I guess all I can say quite simply is, a good lesson in how easy a guy is to please and a good lesson in how to take responsibility for your sex life and not let it get to a point where you are in a 20+ year marriage with a roomate instead of a spouse.

    It takes two people for it to get that way not just the woman, a few months of the MAP is not going to fix 20+ yrs of no sex.

  45. Try starting her out with a movie like Unfaithful with Diane Lane and Richard Gere. Diane is smoking hot, and the movie is just this side of porn.

    As for the guilt, ask her to show you one part in the bible where a husband and wife were struck down for engaging in some reverse cowgirl.

    As for getting her to be dirty, well, not to be crass, but kinda force her into it. Grab her hair and forcefully kiss her; if she's only into missionary, put her ankles by your neck and spank her; finish on her chest…

    However, don't count on a sexual routine vanishing, especially when you both know what works best for you.

  46. Anonymous says:

    If a woman is a frigid, orgasm-free woman for 20-25 years of marriage, it is because SHE WANTS TO BE FRIGID.

  47. My marriage has reached the point where I think of my wife as a third daughter. Sex really fell off after her miscarraige (she was pretty old to be trying, anyway.)

  48. Excellent points

  49. Anonymous says:

    There is a blog called christiannymphos, I've only checked it out a couple times, but getting your wife around sex-positive attitudes can only help.

    G

  50. Anonymous says:

    @Anonymous Mar 6, 2012 07:16 AM

    A possibility unaddressed to date is _shame_. If a (future) wife turned up pregnant in a Catholic family 6 months before her marriage, it's not likely she'd be taken for the Blessed Virgin. Add abortion to relieve the _public_ humiliation, but still leaving _private_ shame and sexual issues would be virtually inevitable.

    Especially if her family paid for the abortion to avoid _their_ public shame.

    It would be a wonder if she ever got aroused ever after that. She wouldn't likely confess to her husband to relieve her guilt. Hence perpetual sexual issues.

    Apologies if that's all-too-Holmes-ian

  51. Ian Ironwood says:

    Don't sweat it. You're overthinking it. Go back and read Athol's advice on "You aren't responsible for her orgasms". If she needs her plastic pal who's fun to play with, then don't get in the way — in fact, buy her a variety. It's not you, it's physiology, and making it psychology will make you psycho. Just relax, let her do what she needs to, and give her whatever you can to help out. But don't sweat it.

  52. Ian Ironwood says:

    I agree . . . but Athol's book is far more direct and to-the-point than that. I've read plenty of books by folks with *real* credentials, and I've even worked with folks with *real* credential, and in my opinion the only credential that makes any difference is whether or not something works. After twenty years of near-misses, MMSL encompasses all that you discussed, and a lot more, but puts it in a practical context a man can use. Frankly, I'm skeptical of books by credentialed authors, simply because so many of them hide their lackluster ideas behind their initials.

  53. Ian Ironwood says:

    Got to Prom together.

    This time of year there are proms happening everywhere. Rent him a tux, buy a prom dress, and go out like you're in High School. Even rent a limo, if you want to be extravagant. But pretend like you're in HS again and you'll see some of that seduction return.

  54. Anonymous says:

    Here is some advice from Roissy for men who are "trapped" in a LTR

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/another-game-concept-confirmed-the-allure-of-male-choice/

    Interestingly, today he advocated the beta game for LTR for both alpha and beta men.

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/the-other-three-weeks/

    Alas, no advice on handling the older woman who has a non or asexual tendency. Probably, he would suggest just have a serving of young cutey pie on the side and be happy.

    Mike

  55. Jaz- do you really think that they will stay on good terms if he leaves an otherwise good wife because she doesn't enjoy their sex life?

  56. What? Unfaithful? That's one of the most infuriating movies ever made. The woman cheats on a good husband 'cause of tingles over a bad boy. And the stupid husband almost fucks his own life because of it. I cannot stand this movie, it sickens me.

  57. Anonymous says:

    A, Horseman's wife has had many years to bite her nails about being dumped for not putting out.

    She has chosen to be dumped.

    Because this is a rational decision made, rather than a surprise with divorce papers out of the blue, I believe that the two of them can act like adults around each other.

  58. Personally if you don't have kids especially if the marriage hasn't gone on too long, I'd tell her that if the sex doesn't greatly improve and start doing that right away, you're going to divorce her.

    You were sold a bill of good by her.

  59. I think you should have a talk with her and say you need more sex, but with someone who enjoys having it with you. You should tell her that you feel to meet your own needs you feel you need to find a lover, and don't want to go behind her back about it. You don't want it to be a breach of trust, which is why you're talking to her about it. Tell her you enjoy being her friend and life partner but need someone who wants sex with you to have regular sex with you.

    Several of the women on here I think and I know on Hooking Up Smart have said in a situation like yours it's a reasonable thing for a husband to ask his wife to agree to, and that she should.

  60. Anonymous says:

    "…a reasonable thing for a husband to ask his wife to agree to…"

    There's only one flaw in this – that in a situation like this, reasonableness (yes, it IS a word!) actually applies!

  61. JiltedByaSkirt says:

    I love this site. I am a nearly 25 year professional at this sexless marriage craziness.
    I have plenty to offer but what is this MAP you all are speaking of?

    Athol: The MAP stands for Male Action Plan and the intro is here… http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/the-map/

  62. I’m surprised that no one mentioned, regarding “Anonymous” of the relatively sexless wife, the possibility that she went on the Pill and her libido dropped.

    Yes, I know he specified they were Catholic, but apparently that hasn’t been sufficient to deter a large number of Catholic women from going on the Pill. And, yes, I know that not all women have their libido plummet on the Pill, but either a small majority or a large minority do…and the degree of libido reduction tends (a.) to vary from one woman to another, (b.) to vary from one pill formulation to another, (c.) to have been more pronounced 20+ years ago when the hormone levels were higher, (d.) to increase as the woman gets older, and (e.) to take longer to flush out of one’s system as the woman gets older. All of that is to say: Perhaps she’s one of those women for whom her pill formulation, or her own sensitivity to hormone balance, produced a particularly nasty flatlining of libido?

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