It’s Really Hot Until It’s Really Not

Reader:  2 points i’d like to add to this discussion:
1. I’m a 30 year old woman and my number is 2. The first 11 years with husband 1 (i was also his first) and now with what will become husband 2 (he’s been with a total of 5) and i will say that the potential for insecurities regarding sex is SOOOOO much higher with number 2! With number 1, he never wondered if his dick was big enough or if he lasted long enough..and neither did I. It was just fact. We never fanisized about other people because all our early sexual experiences were with each other so it was always “remember when” in a good way…With number 2, both of us wonder “did he like the girl with the nice ass, better than he likes big tits?” “does she miss a circumcised penis?” etc. That stuff IS there and it totally wasnt with the first. There’s a level of uncertaintly, which i would expect climbs as your number climbs.
2. I’m mostly a monogomist, but I’ve also been poly for a short while. Guess what happend? I left my husband for my boyfriend. My husband figured when we started “this guy is zero risk, she’d never be stupid enough to leave for him” so he was NEVER jealous. Right up to the very end, he thought he had the boyfriend beat in every catigory….but after a year of hearing “i would NEVER share you if you were mine” from my boyfriend as he got his life in order, i began to resent that my husband didn’t feel that way. I felt that i must be worth very little to him if he didn’t care. The divorce completely crushed him as he didn’t really see it coming. I got things from my boyfriend that I ididn’t get from my husband – passion, play/fun, intense emotion (both my first husband and myself are decidedly practical in all maters, but I didn’t know i LIKED passion, until I had a taste of it…)I thought I had a handle on things, but i fell in love before I knew it was happening and began to resent my husband. I didnt mean for any of that to happen, but it’s what happened. I will never invite another person into my relationship again. I just put this out there, not that people who are happy with poly have to stop, but as a little bit of a warning to people who might be toying with swinging out of bordom. Even if it starts off meaningless, it might not end that way…it’s just too much risk….
Athol:  Your second husband actively strategized to steal you from your first husband for over a year. He meant for it to happen.
The “If you were my wife I wouldn’t share you” line endlessly repeated is the classic husband poaching move. It’s quite intentionally designed to make it look like your husband doesn’t value you, and your lover does. It works so well because it’s true.
So gentlemen, as I’ve said before, I don’t have a moral qualm about non-monogamy. It’s simply another sexual strategy among many. However, the golden rule of swinging / polyamory / cuckolding / open marriage is that you MUST be the most sexually attractive man in whatever is happening. Otherwise push comes to shove, you risk straight up losing your wife to the other man.
If you’re willing to risk losing your wife to gain a few extra exciting sexual encounters, it’s an awful lot to risk unless you don’t actually value her. Once it all falls apart the emotional devastation on the other end is going to be quite spectacular for you. It’s one thing to have your marriage fall apart and a whole other level of nausea to realize that you actively strategized to ruin everything. Once the divorce goes through, you’ll have basically paid half your net worth to another guy to steal your wife.
You risk everything for some additional hot sex. The other man risks nothing for some additional hot sex. Don’t wonder why your wife starts to think you’re a total idiot.


  1. Anonymous says:

    Snort. If you still want to sleep with lots of people, don't get married yet.


  2. Anonymous says:

    Also women tend to be more emotional, so us women do fall for passion/romance. Warning to husbands who neglect on love: prepare to have your wife go elsewhere to look for love she craves.


  3. flipper says:

    Zoe, the problem is, what a woman considers love and affection can be sent through the rationalization wheel several times to become so distorted that the husband has no idea. He might show his love by working long hours so she can stay home with the kids or by fixing things at his grown children's house or whatever.

    But if she wants to view it as such, this is abandonment. See that's the problem men have, women always present a moving target.

    I read something interesting the other day. It basically said that any time a woman says something, men should mentally preface it with "right now I feel like…" So for instance a woman say

    "I love you" she means "right now I feel like I love you."

    "I like my job" she means "right now I feel like I like my job."

    "I hate giving bjs" she means "right now I feel like I hate giving bjs."

    They are all subject to change without any notice. The same woman who is cold in the marriage bed can be a total slut with somebody who makes her thump.

  4. Anonymous says:

    It is true. There are plenty of divorced men who strives to show their love in everyway that their wife expressed a desire to have it shown. When a girl tells me Passion and romance I blank them out because it could mean a number if things.

  5. Anonymous says:

    @Flipper: exactly right, and what anon at 6:25 says is the classic beata trap. Which is why a lot of us are here for anyway.

    Woman "You don't love me! I want 'X'"
    Man: "Sorry, here is X"
    Woman: "I don't want X/ I don't want you to give me X because I just told you to give it to me, you should *know* I want 'X'/ etc…"

    And a lot of us are guys, being logical and stuff, have realized that there is something of a disconnect between what woman says she wants and what she really wants/needs.

    That's why I always smile when someone mentions that movie "What Women Want" It should really be a very short film with a guy holding up a card saying "She doesn't know either"

    I recently read the "Follow Your Heart" post at The Red Pill room

    and would like to hear Athol's opinion on that, as I think it relates (increasingly) this issue of "what women want"

  6. Anonymous says:

    "He might show his love by working long hours so she can stay home with the kids or by fixing things at his grown children's house or whatever."

    If you're not home, you're not being romantic. All you are demonstrating to her is how much you love not being around her.

    This is why military wives stray so much.


  7. Anonymous says:

    What if the "urge" to sleep with lots of different people comes after getting married?

  8. Anonymous says:

    "With number 2, both of us wonder "did he like the girl with the nice ass, better than he likes big tits?" "does she miss a circumcised penis?" etc. That stuff IS there and it totally wasnt with the first. There's a level of uncertaintly, which i would expect climbs as your number climbs."

    Actually, it works the opposite way. As with anything, the more you do, the easier and less scary it gets.

    Forgot to also mention that this poster is an insecure mess. She needs dating experience and to just go out and have fun. Work the female version of the MAP. Confidence comes with practice.

    Hopefully then she'll start being more selective with men and not choose thugs or abusers that treat her like property.


  9. Anonymous says:

    "Actually, it works the opposite way. As with anything, the more you do, the easier and less scary it gets."

    And the more devalued as well. Easier to write off at a whim.

  10. Anonymous says:

    "Woman "You don't love me! I want 'X'"
    Man: "Sorry, here is X"
    Woman: "I don't want X/ I don't want you to give me X because I just told you to give it to me, you should *know* I want 'X'/ etc…"

    Okay, let's flip it:

    Man: "You don't love me! I want sex!"
    Woman: "Sorry. Here." Spreads legs.
    Man: "I don't want it like that! I don't want you to give me sex just because I told you to — I want you to seduce me and crave and initiate sex!"

    People do/don't do things because they do/don't WANT to. At some point, if it doesn't get better, we should recognize that we married someone incompatible.

  11. Anonymous says:

    Then get a divorce.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Anon 6:25, "When a girl tells me Passion and romance I blank them out because it could mean a number if things."

    Passion and romance is paying attention to her, kissing and cuddling (not just because you want to have sex), touching her skin, spending time together as a couple, showing interest in what she's doing. The list goes on…

    If you give up on it so easily, she will give up on you too.


  13. Ian Ironwood says:

    That's what porn and fantasy are for. The fact is that the physiological experience of sex with another person, beyond the hormonal surge of the novel experience, is not materially different from sex with your spouse in most instances. What you're craving isn't different people, it's variety and novelty in your sex/romantic life.

    Porn and fantasy play help give you novelty you desire without screwing the help. It means a greater intimacy and sexual understanding with your partner ("what do you mean, you want to pretend I'm a six foot seven Jamaican fisherman named Devon?!?") but if that's the price of faithful monogamy, you should consider it.

    And if you're reading this and thinking "but Ian! My spouse shouldn't be thinking about anyone or anything but me when we're having sex! Thinking about someone else is tantamount to infidelity!" then you need to get your Red Pills refilled. Human sexuality is one of the most complex and convoluted aspects of all human behavior, and the idea that your charming ass is the end-all and be-all of experience for your spouse is a conceit that could prove disastrous.

    Should every coupling be a porn-and-fetish night? Of course not. But ignoring their need for novelty (and your own) does no one any favors.

  14. Ian Ironwood says:

    It's not "love" you're craving, it's excitement. There are plenty of Betadudes out there who have nurturing love in bucketloads — but if he can't excite you, it's on to the next chump. Call it a need for "passion and romance" but it's really a need for emotional entertainment that the Hamster pretties up to make you feel better about it.

    I'm not judging, just pointing it out.

  15. Ian Ironwood says:

    Anon has a point.

    Any guy out there can kiss and cuddle you with a degree of adequacy. If that's all you needed, then that would be simple enough.

    The problem is, it isn't. The simplistic idea that a little cuddling and kissing is going to make your wife love you and respect you is BS. That's why Athol's book and the Red Pill in general is so helpful — it tells you the real deal. Just telling a man to "pick up the romance" is essentially telling him "you just need to kiss her ass more", when in fact that might be the LAST thing he needs to do. Romance and passion can only exist in a properly managed long-term relationship, and while PDAs and cuddling are important, they are so only in the context of a wider and more comprehensive response.

  16. Anonymous says:

    'Compliment and Cuddle' game. Roosh wrote that up a while back for the lulz.

  17. Anonymous says:

    Thanks Athol for running this post. I needed to hear this today. My wife and I are in a struggle with this very thing. My instincts have been against an open-marriage ever since the conversation came up because of a dastardly alpha interloper. Initially, I thought I was just being "close minded" and "unadventurous" or something beta like that. But, in the pit of my stomach, the idea from her frame has always rung false and damning. Fortunately, I found your site.
    Open relationships are fine for dating, but for a marriage, that shit is trouble. You can bond way, way too easily with the person outside your relationship. And if the sex rank is off, you're really asking for it then, as is our case at the moment. I wish more women and men would really examine their biologies and the realities of what can happen. Personally though, I don't want to be just the shoulder to cry, or even just the snuggle-bunny, I want to be the man. That's a tall order, but I have feeling deep down inside she would prefer that too. Who wants to manage a bunch of other relationships, especially if your primary one is off and maybe brought you to the point of even consider going outside of it. I gots to get my game on to pull us off this precipice. This post just reassured me that I'm the right path, now if only she'd swallow that damn red pill…to be continued…

  18. Anonymous says:

    I *was* going to say "but how often do you see men leaving because his wife puts out all the time," then I realized you're actually dead on: that's why men have affairs. Because she's not into it (and by extension, him).

    But, I think society views it very differently if a woman "follows her heart" vs a man "listened to his dick."

  19. Anonymous says:

    You could try flipping the game on her: "Aren't I enough for you! You don't love me!" but I can see that back-firing too readily with a long list of ways you're NOT enough for her, and cementing her decision to leave.

    Probably the best is to firmly smack that idea down with "No, that is NOT acceptable," with the ability to deliver an Ultimatum of kicking her now skanky ass to the curb. Could just be a shit test to see if you think she's worth fighting for, and are going to Captain.

  20. Anonymous says:

    I'm the person who left the original comment.

    Jaz71 – as to an insecure mess, you have know idea!!! This experience actively distroyed who I was! i would never do it again and would caution anyone who's thinking about a poly lifestyle to really really think twice because it's so dangerous!!! To have such a colossal failure under my belt with something so important is heartbreaking. And has made me mistrust my feelings on so many levels. Its tough to go through something so aweful and then to have the people around you constantly saying "well they're fools, that would never happen to me" I understand people need to do this in order to feel safe, but the fact of the mater is that i would have said the same thing way back when…The depression that followed the divorce resulted in not sleeping for a few months which lead to poor performance at work and that I gave up my marathon running durring that time. So in a very short while, i felt I had lost everything that was ME. Before all of this, I would have said that i was highly secure, I rarely doubted myself and had been extremely successful in every endevor. Afterward, I question everything I do and I'm doing the best that I can.

    As to your comments regarding my selection of men; i find that offensive. So far I've picked excellent men and I don't know why you got the idea that I didn't?? Perhaps the decision to go poly? Perhaps I should explain how it happened…

    For the record there was ZERO deception at any time. To this day I can say that I have never once lied to either of these guys. My husband I actively discussed the desire for more sex and companionship durring our frequent periods appart. He traveled for his competative sports every weekend (I agreed this was important as it was his dream, but I was unable to travel with him – I stayed home and held down the fort). and we worked 60 hours a week durring the work week. At this point we had been together for 11 years wihtout ever straying (has anyone else read that the '7 year ich' is really the 11 year ich?) We were having sex about 3 times a week at that time. We discussed options and both admited that we were really curious about what sex would be like with someone else as we'd both only been with each other. We researched heavily and even after finding that 90% of swingers end in divorce we were cocky "that wont happen to us, we're way to secure in our relationship, we wont get jealous" and guess what happened? We didn't get jelous. We were right. And I think that was a bad thing. In fact we had fun, gossiping about our experiences to each other about what it was like and what was ddifferent. It made OUR sex life better for a while bc there was renewed "fun" over our little expariment. Over time I spent more and more time wiht my boyfriend who took the place any time my husband didn't want to or wasnt able to do things with me. My boyfriend made me feel vitally important to his happyness while my huband felt more and more like my business partner. Yes we were kicking ass at the game of life; we had a life anyone would envy, but it felt like we were just living together and working on the same project…eventually I started to wonder what my husband offered me. And unfortunately there wasn't much left at that point.

  21. Anonymous says:

    As to your coments that it gets easier the more people you sleep with – maybe that's true? But i'm not all that interested in finding out. I had always hoped my number would be 1, but I'll settle for 2 and way happier.

    As to showing love – I have no doubt that my husband loved me. And I loved him. even when i developed feelings for the boyfriend, I convinced myself "I can love 2 people at once, one doesnt detract from the other" but as it turns out, there's only so much time in your day, and someone alway WINS when it comes to how you spend it. My husband was happy that he had a situation where we could both be happy – he could travel and get a little varity in his sexlife and I was taken care of while he was gone. we both thought it was a win/win. but by the end we were way wrong. I still care for him tremendously and we maintain a casual friendship.

    I'll say again, I didn't do this purposefully, I just misjudged what the results would be.

    I share my story here because i think there's a lot about my marriage that rings completely true with what Atol preaches. And this website is what finally got me to fully understand what happened. Even at the split, I didn't really understand why I never wanted to kiss my husband (sex was fine, but the kissing not so much) and why i constanly felt trapped. When I left, I was in therapy for a while which resulted in me finding some peace with everything, but never a good understanding of what really happend. Everything sort of clicked when i found this site.

    Atol, I think you're doing good work. I think this info needs to be out there. NO ONE WANTS TO BE DIVORCED!!! And I wish we would have found it a long time ago.

    I'll say that i am the happiest now that I've ever been in my life, but jesus christ was it a tough road to get here. I share my story here because I hope it can help some of the men who are where we were. I really wouldnt wish that kind of pain on anyone – and that's with ours being an EASY divorce!! No kids, split everythng down the middle wihtout any fighting (I tell you we're both practical and "fair" to a fault).

  22. Anonymous says:

    (i'm the orginal poster, jane) Please please dont agree to it. Jesus if he's hotter than you, then you shouldnt even consider it!!!! You need to shut this down as an absolute "No, sleeping with someone who's not your spouse is unacceptable" And I'd actually suggest insisting that she not see this guy at all because you don't want the attraction growing on either side.

  23. Anonymous says:

    This sounds too good to be true. What I mean is, I've heard so many poly stories over the years that your tale seems like an exception to what poly's claim is possible. But I will definitely heed your warning…it doesn't gaurantee an affair won't happen, but there's no reason to walk willingly into the fire of disrupting your relationship if you don't have to.

  24. Anonymous says:

    I happen to think poly is one of those things the people really really WANT to work, but there's a reason that there aren't a bunch of polygamists running around in the US, it just doesnt work out well here. And trust me, if you wife wants to screw this guy, she will find EVERY success story out there to prove that you should let her. And I'm quite sure that she ONLY wants him for sex right NOW. When i started my poly relationship, the boyfriend was a chaotic mess in his life but very alpha….and by the end of year, he had gotten it all together and was suddenly husband material…

  25. Anonymous says:

    you are ruining this blog for me. all you do is argue, now you are saying this woman who had two sexual partners, both husbands, to be more selective. should she wait for the first guy to give her orgasms 90% of the time like you.

  26. Anonymous says:

    "Actually, it works the opposite way. As with anything, the more you do, the easier and less scary it gets."

    you are desensitized to the issue here. maybe you don't know what feelings you would have on the matter because, well you can't go back in time and not sleep with all those people. I question what is rationalizing you to be adamant about arguing this topic, maybe deep down you wish you could change the past.

  27. Anonymous says:

    Bingo! I was going through a rough time emotionally and asked my man fir more beta. He piled it on, because this was a bona fide "thing" that I needed to heal and fix. After 2 days, I still felt destabilized. We're still learning, so out of the blue, I just said, "i need a huge alpha move from you, not beta." Claim me. Tell me to knock it off.

    Perfect! He did the Athol aloha/beta/alpha "wrap." He told me to get over it, he loves me, and I had better be ready to be fucked proper when he got home.


  28. Anonymous says:

    That's it. The problem is that I feel under the gun. I called this guy out, so hopefully he'll be shamed into backing off, but the hamster's out of the bag and I'm racing frantically to get my shit together to thwart her from making a "mistake" with him. What's the one thing you wish your husband had done to prevent all of this from happening? Do you even have a perspective on that from that time? How do you kill the hamster before it kills the couple, especially when the MAP takes time?

  29. Anonymous says:

    Aloha?? Try alpha/beta/ alpha!

  30. I know I wish I could change the past. Doesn't make me love my husband any less.

    I choose to love him more and make up for lost time. :)

    Doesn't mean it's easy to have those regrets. They can pop up and wreak havoc, if you let them.

    Good discussion.

  31. Anonymous says:

    well, it's not that i WISH my husband would have done anything different, because i'm head over heals with husband #2 and I really couldnt be happier NOW.

    But i think what you're getting at is could my husband have stopped it? and i think the answer to that is yes. This did not happen over night, it was a series of small cuts…and one thing would have been to smack it down right at the start. And maybe make me feel bad for considering it. I think there should be both an alpha and a beta appeal there to work well: "I ONLY want to be with you, i married you because you were THE ONE and i you are absolutely not ALLOWED to sleep with anyone else and your friendship makes me uncomfortable now that i know you want to sleep with him, i think you should stop seeing him all together, if you break our vows, I'll leave you" he also could have done that at any point in the course of things and i would have stopped. Up until the very end. Hell, if he would have raised hell when i said i wanted a divorce "lets go to counsiling" or ANYTHING, I probably would have hung around and tried…He just took it as a "mature," unemotional, mater of fact "this is what's happening, so why fight it"…it was only AFTER it was too late that he started showing signs of being "crushed" by my leaving….

  32. Athol Kay says:

    That's it. The problem is that I feel under the gun. I called this guy out, so hopefully he'll be shamed into backing off, but the hamster's out of the bag and I'm racing frantically to get my shit together to thwart her from making a "mistake" with him. What's the one thing you wish your husband had done to prevent all of this from happening? Do you even have a perspective on that from that time? How do you kill the hamster before it kills the couple, especially when the MAP takes time?

    You make it exceptionally clear to her that if she does anything with him you will consider it cheating on you. You will be very angry. You will be very upset. And you will not take it lying down.

    It's okay to get loud about that.

    Dealing with cheating/potential cheating is different than the MAP. You have to lay down the law up front and get it to stop asap, and then run the MAP get into marriage counseling et al.

  33. Anonymous says:

    I haven't been in this situation, but I think too that most women want to hear "NO, we aren't going to do this" from their husbands. Plus you need to run Athol's MAP at double speed to get your best Alpha and Beta in balance. Odds are that she's looking for some Alpha excitement, so you need to provide it.

  34. Anonymous says:

    I'd also add here – you don't need to find "evidence" of why you two shouldnt do this, you just have to say "no." She will likely say "why do you feel that way?" and then try and logic you out of your feelings. Rather than tell the truth (I think you might leave me) you might go for "it's gross, i don't want sloppy seconds with my WIFE" This isn't an argument for logic, it's gut emotion time….

    Also i'll add that although what i'm telling you sounds manipulative on the part of the wife, when it was going on wiht ME, I didn't really have good perspective on the "why" part…when people talk about the "rationalization hampster" you have to understand that that is largely unconcious. She's rationalized it to HERSELF, she actually DOES believe what she's saying….

  35. Anonymous says:

    also on reread here, you mention you "want to be the man and she would prefer that too" I just want to say that's right on the money – i really really really wanted to be attracted to my husband. I even went to a therapist and asked for medication because i was convince there was really something wrong with me that i "loved him but wasn't in love with him." Did you ever see the movie Eat Pray Love? In the opening scene she says "I had actively participated in every decsion that brought me here and yet I wasn't happy" and that's exactly how i felt (ps. if you havent seen it, dont bother, it's stupid, but that opening line rang true for me post divorce….). She WANTS you to be that guy. Life would be easy if she was madly in love with you…

  36. OffTheCuff says:

    Come on. It's not that hard to invent a name, everyone. Stop picking "anonymous". This is like watching schizophrenic talk to herself.

  37. Anonymous says:

    Taking in all the posts and the people kicking & screaming in their marriages. Men angry, women seemingly sabotaging their marriages by agreeing to infidelity experiments.

    Athol, please explain why ANYONE should get married. If 50% end in divorce, and probably another 25-30% limping along in loveless/sexless marriages only held together by the crappy economy or minor children or scary divorce expenses, why not just live together in a rented apartment?

  38. Athol Kay says:

    Deleted a comment from "Ethan" for calling the the women in question a cunt. She was kind enough to share her story as a very honest warning to other men, and name calling is unhelpful.

    Unfortunately the way Blogger works two comments in reply to that also get deleted.

  39. Anacaona says:

    Cosign that.I'm like how many people we have actually talking.

  40. DirkDiggler says:

    To the guy with he wife that wants to swing: Just tell her NO, and if she asks why say "You are MY Wife and I DONT SHARE. End of story, no other reason need be given. Also, let her understand that if she strays you are finished. If she still strays then follow through, dump her. If she strays knowing your feelings she wnats it to end AND she's not worth it

  41. Anonymous says:

    Hi Jane. You wrote: "As to your coments that it gets easier the more people you sleep with – maybe that's true? But i'm not all that interested in finding out. I had always hoped my number would be 1, but I'll settle for 2 and way happier."

    You seriously cannot play a comparison game because you'll start questioning everything. If he discreetly looks at other women on the street, or picks up the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated, or watches porn, you will be stressing. We've all seen women overreact, and it's just scary (though funny later on).

    Thanks for fleshing out your story/failed experiment. It cleared up some misconceptions.


  42. My ex-boyfriend and I got into the swinger scene after we had been together about three years. He was the only guy I had ever slept with and he had a very high desire for variety and novelty that was hard for me to keep up with even though I was cool with most of the things he wanted to try (I'm not criticizing him here, his desire for variety allowed me to explore what I wanted in a sex life pretty thoroughly). It started with same room sex with other couples, which I enjoyed because it was like porn but with people who actually like each other. Then we progressed into him penetrating other women (I made it clear up front that I refused to be penetrated by another man). Same thing as the OP said earlier in the thread-we did not feel a lot of jealousy and that was a bad bad sign! We were separated at the time by a short distance and I started feeling attraction for another man. Long story short, I asked if I could sleep with this guy, he said NO WAY, I did it anyway and now I'm with the other guy. So if she's asking you if she can sleep around, smack that down because she probably already has someone in mind and it's not going to be good for you.

  43. The MacNut says:

    This blog is for people who are already married who are trying to make the most of their marriages. As such, your question is rather beside the point.

    Yes, marriage is a risk, especially in these Marriage 2.0 days. I for one wouldn't blame you if you decided not to take that risk. However, most on this blog have already taken the plunge, so to speak, and are trying not to drown. Better to throw them a life preserver or two, rather than mock them for jumping in, right?

  44. Anonymous says:

    I like this analogy that I heard the other day:
    See the whole story as a key and a lock…
    A master key is a great thing, it can open any lock, but a lock that can be opened by any key… This lock is basically broken and everyone would toss it out as useless.
    Classic traditional gender roles. And that from a guy who is dating a female lawyer, lol.

    Great blog, Athol!

  45. Anonymous says:

    Anonymous – this blog i think draws a lot of people who are in rough patches so it may seem like marriage is all bad, but when it's good, it's REALLY incredible. Honestly, that feeling of completeness and home and living with your best friend and unlimited access to sex…it really is great more than it's bad….

  46. Ok, um, how do i do that? I've been picking Anonymous bc i dont want to have to go through a bunch of "creating an account" stuff….I shall attempt

  47. success!!!

  48. Man: "I don't want it like that! I don't want you to give me sex just because I told you to — I want you to seduce me and crave and initiate sex!"

    And I add the man also says: "And because you don't initiate sex enough for me, I'm going to go have an affair, and I'll keep having affairs until you get hot for me."

    Does that qualify as Batshit?

  49. Anonymous says:

    Zoe my point stand kissing and cuddling are romantic until the woman decides it isn't. I've long winced stopped putting stock in comments like that and do my own thing. My ability to get laid has increased not decreased since then

  50. Anonymous says:

    After reading on a several swingers and sexuality boards and reading stories such as yours and by the other woman who tried poly when in a LTR with the guy she lost her virginity to I have concluded that womens sexuality is VERY maleable to circumstance. THere are SO damn many couples who get into swinging or do a little bit of threesomes etc. that have only had 1-5 or 1-10 sex partners prior to this and have been perfect good girls only having relationship sex that it undermines my faith in there excisting any women that are only able or willing to have sex with a man they love in a mono relationship. The common theme amongst these women is that they NEVER thought they would do something like that and suddenly they are having FFM and MMF threesomes year in and year out. So anytime I read a woman saying she always turns down attractive alphas wanting casual sex and she only has sex in committed relationships and that she is a classic good girl that would never do this that or the other thing I always think to myself that she probably is speaking the truth as she sees it and most likely will keep this up but just put her in a relationship with the right man pushing for swinging or place her on a caribean island with the right hunk(s) after a bitter divorce and suddenly she is slutting it up like crazy. For a while. Then she might go back to her old self. So when women say NAWALT I do agree that not all women will in practice end up doing certain things guys don`t want good girls to do but I disagree they don`t have it in them and that that can`t be let out rather easily given the right conditions.

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