Maybe Isn’t A No, It Means Keep Talking…

Athol:  A selection of comments from Flipper…
Flipper: Email exchange sent- she can’t get texts in her office. “Subject: I’m feeling like taking a ride tonight, body: to pound town.  You coming?” 
Her response: “Maybe……”
How do I proceed?
Athol:  You opening question is fine. Her response is “I’m almost interested, can you sell me a little more?”
Flipper:  I went with “If you don’t want to come, that’s your choice.  Then I  can get there exactly how I want to without you giving me direction.”
Athol:  Eeek! Your response basically said, “Well fuck you then, you’re kind of a bossy bitch.” So don’t say that.
Flipper:  This is why I come to this site. I didn’t get a reply from the second one.  I’ve got a lot to learn for sure.  One problem I do have is that it is work email and I can’t use words that are going to trip the spam filters.  So I have to outsmart the filters and use innocent words even if the message is supposed to be saucy.
Athol:  Okay… for now, you should apologize for being cranky with her, and then say you just feel kinda bad tempered today and if you come home you’re just going to be cranky at home too, so you should take some space and go do something to relax / calm down rather than pick on her all night. Go ride go-karts, or smack some balls in a batting cage or something completely benign and male.
Okay… next time around… Jane you’re up…
Jane:  You don’t want to come off in a way that every makes her feel like she’s not wanted.  If your goal is more sex,  you’ve GOT to leave room for her to keep her pride and come with you and you’ve got to TURN HER ON if you want her to come to you.   I’m positive the first email got a smile, it’s very cute and silly.  At that point, she’s sexually neutral, but she’s open to more interaction with you.  She responded in a “if you play your cards right” kinda way.   The problem is, that your response was the equivalent of walking away from the table.  Yeah she could follow u, but she’s not turned on, so there’s no reason to get up out of her chair.
You have to keep playing all day long and you’ll get more an more escalation.   if you keep your cute frame about taking a trip, you can go along the vein of kidnapping her for the ride if she’s generally turned on rape fantasy stuff, you could come back with an email about stopping for something to eat on the way if she’s into oral, you can bring back elements of maybe some memories of car sex you guys have had in the past.
Or you can toss it back in her court with “what do i have to do to get you to yes” (I actually think a while back Athol had a good post where he escalates using a car salesman style sexual escalation – “I could thow in hair pulling for free” etc) but even tossing it back, gives her the chance to play back with you “i might be interested if you threw in a back rub” etc…it’s the GAME that’s the turn on.  It’s the break from the monotony of the day where she’s thinking about you and your evening all day and getting slowly progressively more turned on.
Athol:  I like this Jane, she can stay. (Gives Jane a chocolate.)
Anyway…
If you can’t text her because of the cell phone reception, and have to email her only on her work computer and have to avoid the naughty words, then you have to work around that by setting some code words like people used for prostitution services in the “Help Wanted” section of newspapers back in the olden days of the New Zealand Herald. Though I guess I might have completely misunderstood what Busty Brianna was offering by advertising “French Polishing” for $100 an hour.
My suggestion is discussion of an ongoing plumbing problem in your house. It lends itself well to metaphor…
The water pressure seems unusually high today…
The sink in the master bathroom is dripping again…
So shall I go to Home Depot for a new faucet, or do you want to come pick one out with me?
There seems to be a lot of hair clogging the bathroom sink, I’m going to remove it all tonight.
Oy… there’s six inches of water in the basement waiting for you when you get home.
Gonna try and fix the shower head tonight, but I’ll need your help for a few minutes.
Careful with the spray hose in the kitchen, it’s jammed and it will soak you if you try to use it.
Otherwise as Jane suggested, just keep it playful and engaging and keep it going until she folds and wants to cum with you.
If all else fails, tell her if she comes and behaves herself she can control the radio in the car on the way back. Say that with a very naughty boy look to her.
Jennifer:  Apparently my mind isn’t dirty enough to get all the metaphors…don’t know if that’s disturbing or comforting…)

Comments

  1. "Flipper: I went with "If you don't want to come, that's your choice. Then I can get there exactly how I want to without you giving me direction."

    Ugh. The only point of having sex with you is to have an orgasm. Otherwise, just masturbate and then cuddle/spoon with her in bed later.

    I like Jane's response. Sell the benefits of your talents and toss in the freebies to entice her. Make her envision you kissing the nape of her neck or slowly unzipping her skirt. Her imagination will take care of the rest.

  2. Anonymous says:

    My wife rarely says yes to a requested sex act. But then again, she rarely says no either. I get "maybe" all the time. I just interpret this to mean yes if I initiate. If I get a "maybe", it means take charge and proceed. She has never refused sex after a "maybe". So, bottom line for me, I keep adding enticements until I get from a no to a maybe.

  3. See this is where it gets confusing. On the one hand you are supposed to request sex, never apologize, and play it off like you don't give a rip when they deny you.

    Now, I get that I misinterpreted the maybe, but apologizing for my response is beta, no? Its so confusing sometimes.

  4. Ian Ironwood says:

    Yes, she was inviting you to be a playful tease, and you stepped on her toes, instead.

    When texting with your wife, "no" almost never means "no", it means "I haven't thought about it yet, give me some compelling reasons to drop my panties." Even if the end-result is disappointing sexually, you can't look at it like an all-or-nothing game. Your marriage exists on a continuum, your flirtation should, too.

    Remember, "You're never interviewing for just one job."

  5. Ian Ironwood says:

    You aren't apologizing for your response (if you do what Athol said) . . . you are apologizing for your tone and attitude, which were ungentlemanly and prone to misinterpretation. That's a subtle but important difference.

    One of the 16 Commandments of Poon is "Never Apologize", and while this works in Single Game, the conditions shift in Married Game. Politeness and manners become essential, and when you do transgress the agreed-upon bounds of the relationship — say, slinging an ignoble and crabby response to a suggestion — then it is perfectly appropriate to apologize for the way in which you did it.

    Please don't misunderstand — it's appropriate for a man to express anger when he's genuinely and justifiably angry about something. But a gentleman never loses control, and a Red Pill dude doesn't unless he wants to crash and burn around bedtime. Casual indifference beats emotion 90% of the time.

    But if you do happen to lose your cool, it's perfectly appropriate to apologize for it. Just as if she gets hyper-flaky and you call her on it, it would be perfectly appropriate for her to apologize for that.

  6. FWIW, I did recover. I went over to work on a property for a while last night and texted her that she should probably start stretching. Then she said I should stretch out my jaw. I told her I was chewing gum.

    Got home and chatted a bit and then nailed her pretty hard. She was into it pretty heavy. But I was able to keep it light and playful which is a lesson learned.

  7. =) much better

  8. Ian Ironwood says:

    Nice recovery.

  9. I'm not making excuses but offering a possible explanation for how a woman may be processing the request for sex from her or her own desire for it.

    I am 43 and was raised under the motto that boys are only after one thing and good girls don't…and they especially don't do THAT. Once I was married and sanctioned and sex was suddenly okay, it was hard to accept and transition that good girls really did do THAT…and it was even okay to ask for it.

    I sometimes want to unreservedly shout YES! YES! Fuck me now and just like this!! to my husband but I have a hard time and feel so slutty. Heaven forbid if he didn't hear me the first time or hesitates because it is so difficult to ask a second time. I have worked hard and am still working on accepting that it is okay and desired by my husband for me to be this way.

    When I can break that barrier and actually ask for or enthusiastically participate in all kinds of sex with him, I often times can not look him in the eye afterward and need time to not be embarrassed.

    Maybe it is worth pursuing a conversation with your woman to explore if she feels inhibited in this way.

  10. I think the "maybe" response is also the ingrained anti-slut defense that a lot of women have.

    She is likely looking for you to escalate or make a move because she doesn't want to come across as "slutty" by escalating or making the move herself.

    My wife is the exact same way, she rarely responds in kind. She typically is vague and plays along while I escalate the conversation.

    Nothing wrong with it, but something to keep in mind.

  11. There is nothing wrong with apologizing. In fact, real men apologize when they are in the wrong. At least in my opinion.

  12. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Red

    Sexual inhibition due to religious or social prohibition is a HUGE thing to get over for most women, and some never do. It's good you recognize this for what it is, and aren't trying to internalize it in some "Am I a bad person because I like cunnilingus?" Hamsterization.

    The problem is that this is an emotional, not a rational response. Rationally I can tell you that until MILF and cougar came along, there were no words in the English language to positively denote a sexually active woman. Therefore you don't even have a word to describe yourself without shame issues arising. Perhaps if you start seeing yourself as a MILF — a wife for whom it is perfectly acceptable to act like a total Sexually Liberated Untamed Tart (S.L.U.T.) for her husband. Try visualizing it, and realize that instead of doing something "dirty" or "wrong", you're participating in the glue that holds the universe together. Yes, your vagina can be that powerful.

    You're going to have to get out of your own head and give yourself permission to act like a sexual being, with your husband and with yourself. There's no shame in that, and a whole lot of good comes from it.

    And if you're worried at the social aspect of it . . . just remember that nearly a majority of adult American women have made at least one sex video with a partner, and yet no one is screaming SCANDAL unless it gets freaky. One of the great things about the 21st century is that both men and women are coming to terms with the fact that yes, everyone has sex.

    And that's . . . okay.

  13. I didn't read any comments before mine, I guess I kind of repeated what she said.

  14. Ian Ironwood says:

    "real men apologize when they are in the wrong. " Emphasis added.

    It's Blue Pill to apologize for something you did or didn't do. It's Red Pill to apologize for the way that you did it. Apologizing graciously for an error that you recognized and corrected yourself without prompting is Alpha. Apologizing because she had a bad day at work and thinks you should have had pizza instead of chinese is Beta.

  15. I honestly don't think this about feeling like a slut or not. I think it really is about "sell me this idea." If you're in the middle of work and your husband sends you an email, you're (ussually) just dripping wet and ready to run out to the parking lot for a quicky. You're thinking about all the things you have to do at work today and what you need to do when you get home. Now the email flipper sent originally, my response to that if my husband sent it would be a smile. It's cute and entertaining. And if i'm stressing about work or just bored, a smile is a good thing. But "do you want to take a trip to pound town" really isn't gonna get me all hot an bothered in ANY situation. it's funny, not some huge turn on. Funny and clever are good things and contribute to your attractiveness overall but I'm not "push to start." The "maybe" response is an invitation to get me warmed up. It's not really about not wanting to be a slut. It's about the fact that when i'm NOT turned on – the journey to orgasm seems like it's gonna be kinda time consuming and a lot of effort. Once i'm turned on, feels like no big deal. It's a precieved effort thing i guess. So if he says "I'm out" then I just shrug and go back to what i was doing. At the maybe point, you feel no loss if you miss out on sex, cause it's not somehting you're actively craving.

    It might help to think of it like food? If you're super hungry and someone down the hall at work says "we've got cake down here" you're ready to sprint down the hall! But if you just finished eatting and someone says, "cake down the hall" you kinda think "well, cake sounds ok, but I don't really want to walk all the way down there." If you're bored at work, and people start coming back from eatting the cake and they start saying "oh the cake's so great, remember that cake we had for jill's birthday? it's the same one! wasn't that good?" then time passes and you start to really want that cake! You're getting more and more hungry as people talk about it and maybe there's more fun things about that cake than the cake itself "They have party favors!" "EVERYONE is down there!" "there's also chips and salsa!!" then it starts to seem worth the walk and you're really starting to crave that cake…but you didn't even really want it in the begining…same wiht sex..you have to make her want it.

    The "I'm going without you response" was the equivilent of just never hearing about the cake "there was cake down the hall, but now it's all gone" at which point you just shrug cause you don't really care. I mean if you WANTED cake, you could get it anytime you please, so it's no big loss….If you've built up the craving and THEN you get there and the cake is gone…well then you're about in tears when you see that…and you're probably willing to stop at the bakery on the way home to get your own…

    I'm on a diet right now training for this stupid marathon…god damn i want cake.

  16. Ian Ironwood says:

    You seem to be obsessing about the cake thing.

    Take two cupcakes and call me in the morning.

    But I think this is an excellent opportunity to remind everyone that while men demonstrate SPONTANEOUS desire, women usually exhibit RESPONSIVE desire. That is, dudes, if you don't lead, she can't follow. You have to take that first step, and then keep leading her until she's where she needs to be. And "wanna fuck?" isn't exactly the best tactic to use for Responsive Desire.

    When I'm starting to Game Mrs. Ironwood into bed, I start early, plant a few seeds, and let 'em grow. I'll hit 'em again in the afternoon, then just before she gets off from work. By the time she gets home (unless she's had the Day From Hell) then she's 75% of the way there, and I just have to "sink the putt" with a little Beta-how-was-work-today-you-have-20-minutes and a little Alpha-gosh-is-it-time-to-exercise-in-the-nude-in-front-of-the-mirror-again-already? and she's ready to go.

    Of course, fellas, you could always just smear cake on your body and standing around enticingly. It seems to be a real motivator for some women.

  17. Lol – I probably would be ready to leave work for THAT…

  18. @Ian You are so right on the spontaneous and responsive reactions of men and women.

    I always wonder why my husband thinks parading around nude is going to get me hot and bothered. Oh I look, trust me, and it's a very nice view, but I don't get instantaneously horny like he does when I parade around nude.

    Some clever banter before the parade and a little time to let the mental aerobics of visualizing what we could be doing and I'm ready to get started.

    @Jane I think a lot of men are "push to start" and it's so easy to give and do what works for you.

  19. All I was getting at was that preconceived, ingrained notions of a woman's sexuality to be "a good girl" may bring on the "maybe" response.

    Of course, women need to be primed more than men, trust me I know this! haha

    But, my point was simply that she may be a little hesitant to escalate the conversation based on her feeling of needing to "be a good girl".

  20. "play it off like you don't give a rip when they deny you."

    This is true. But reread that response. Does it sound like you dont give a rip? Cause to me, it sounds like you're ANGRY…

    Also, I'd encourage you rather than trying to act like you don't care, think of your interactions more from the terms of "she's obviously eventually gonna have sex with me; she'd be crazy to turn it down" and play forward as thought you KNOW that the end game will be sex. Which I think you did in your later interactions. Over time, it gets a lot easier when the default becomes sex. When you're on her to do list daily, just liek brushing her teeth, but until then, just ACT as though that's the way it is…"she's obviously gonna have sex with me, but she needs me to sell her on it first"

  21. "start streaching" = We're having sex so get ready. Good job! You didn't ask, you told.

  22. pdwalker says:

    Red,

    I think that one of the greatest compliments you can pay your husband, and one of the greatest turn ons you can give is the strong vocal desire for him.

    does your husband understand your reticence? have you ever shared it with him? maybe you should.

    either way, he's lucky to have a woman who's so into him, even if she does feel guilty about it *sly wink*

  23. <<…while men demonstrate SPONTANEOUS desire, women usually exhibit RESPONSIVE desire…>>

    This is true for a majority of women. I hope it helps flipper, the reader from yesterday ("Captain on an away mission"), and other husbands realize that it usually doesn't mean anything when their wives aren't immediately turned on and ready to go. It just means that they're women and they are likely to respond sexually if their man initiates in a fun, positive way. Although wives can do things to promote getting themselves in the mood, it's still going to be a response for most women.

  24. I was never one to be accused of beating around the bush. I am very direct and we have talked at length about my sexual inhibitions and my sometimes skewed views on sex.

    I try to vocalize my excitement and desire for him before and even during sex. I am much better at sexting or emailing my sexy thoughts before we are together and I try to be vocal during sex but it feels so fake and contrived. In my head I'm roaring my enjoyment and yet he says he can barely hear me.

    I am not raising my daughters with that view of sex at all. In their marriages I want them to be free in their sexual appetites and activities.

  25. pdwalker says:

    then text him;

    "a might be quiet as a mouse, but inside I roar like a lion when you…"

    who knows, maybe you'll startle him to ..um.. a quick conclusion if the day comes when you do let out a roar

    in the meantime, don't obsess over it. you seem to be doing ok

  26. Anonymous says:

    Witty, flirtish and bantering does not come naturally for most men. I could have spent all day coming up w/ a reply to her "maybe" response, and would not have been able to think of anything. It is unfathomable to me that some women require this kind of stuff to get them primed. Small surprise that so many men complain about not getting any.

  27. Well, that can be very frustrating, sometimes. You try to create a fun, sexy environment all the time… and most of the time you get only moderate enthusiasm… you start to get tired of it…

  28. the reason witty banter is hot is that
    a) it shows you're inteligent, you have to think quickly in real life to get this down, but by email you get more time to think.
    b) it makes her think about you sexually. You're not her friend, you're her lover, you have to differentiate that. You don't want to be her best friend, seriously…

    The way to get better at it really is to practice. You can come up with your own kinda game that works with your personality, you dont have to copy others. The poster above showed good use of analagies (remember your SATs, those are on there for a reason) and creativity in his email. It was also funny and smiling makes you feel good. Now he gets associated as being the one who makes her feel good. The further you take the analogy and inuendo, the more she has to THINK to keep up. That makes you interesting and engaging. You want her ATTENTION so you have to do something to keep her mind engaged. If you're not comfortable with the overtly sexual stuff, you can go a funny angle, you can go a deep thinker/haunted artist type angle, you can be politically knowledgeable. You can be goofy silly, the idea is just that you need to pull her attention as much as possible. It's about being fun.

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