Playing For Keeps

Ponyboy said in an earlier comment:  I think the double standard here isn’t that it’s OK for a guy to bang a lot of chicks, but not OK for a woman. To me, it’s that the other day on Athol’s site all these married guys were complaining that their wives don’t have sex enough. They were talking about leaving them, cheating etc… Now we have a girl who obviously likes sex, but she is getting taken out to the wood shed and deemed not marriage material – which is it?
Athol:  The quick and dirty answer is to say that both are extremes to be avoided. My viewpoint is that a very low partner count is best, but you should establish you have sexual compatibility before getting married. I’m generally advocating a modified virgin strategy.
The longer answer is that I think we’re confusing two separate issues here. There isn’t a frigid vs slut sliding scale at work where on one end are sexually dead women and on the other sexually exciting women.
The sexually dead women that the husbands were complaining about on earlier posts have a very low Female Alpha Trait level and likely a decent Female Beta Trait level. So they aren’t at all sexual, but they are basically reliable stable women who aren’t going to blow up the relationship at any point.
The lady in her late twenties with 20+ lifetime partners seems to enjoy having sex and doesn’t have any trouble attracting new partners, so she has a high Female Alpha Trait level, but she’s displayed a persistent pattern of relationship failure at on average the six month mark. To be blunt, twenty different men either didn’t meet her standards or weren’t comfortable being in a relationship with her. As such her Female Beta Trait level appears quite low. Marrying her would be creating a serious risk for a quick divorce.
So these are two quite different relationship stresses. If these were men we were talking about they would translate fairly directly into a Nice Guy Beta Orbiter who can’t get laid, and a PUA player that is a constant moving target incapable of a long term relationship. Would anyone recommend to a woman to marry a known player? Would anyone recommend to a woman to marry an insipid chump for anything other than his money? If not, why the double standard that men should pony up for it?
Just like men need to balance their Alpha and Beta Traits, so do women. If a woman is a sexually dead cold fish in the sack, she shouldn’t be shocked if her husband develops a wandering eye for pussy anymore than a Betaized Nice Guy husband should be if his wife hooks up with her old boyfriend on Facebook. If a woman can’t hold up her end of an emotional relationship without it blowing up within six months, she shouldn’t be shocked if her boyfriend dumps her for someone less pretty that can cook and likes kids. At least no more than an eternally absent Alpha professional husband should be shocked if his wife bonds to one of the dads picking up his own kids from her kids’ school.
Marriage is an incredibly serious decision to make. In terms of the way family court plays out right now, it’s more serious for the man than the woman to get married. If you’re a male, your default setting should be that you shouldn’t get married at all. What you need to get married is an exceptional woman who has some of both Alpha and Beta Traits working for her.
There’s NO requirement to marry anyone at all. If anyone tries to guilt trip you into being committed to a woman by marriage, it’s because they have her interests at heart and not yours. Any time you hear the phrase “man up” you should hear “be a chump.”
If you do decide to get married, my most serious advice is that you do your due diligence and evaluate her most practically. You want to know her medical history, you want to know her criminal history, you want to know her credit history, you want to know her family history and you sure as hell want to know her sexual history too. Nothing in particular need be a deal breaker, for no one is perfect, but you need to advance into the most serious relationship of your life with open eyes and full disclosure.
In a general sense I advise both the man and the woman to have as limited of a sexual history as possible. I believe that’s been a massive benefit to Jennifer and myself and our happiness. However I also advise very strongly that you need to be assured that you have a good sexual chemistry together before you get married. I can tell you dozens of horror stories of those that have deeply regretted waiting until the wedding to experience sex with their spouse.
Look, let’s be serious about this. Marriage is hard. Monogamy is hard. And it’s a really long time to be together. If you’re going to walk this road, you want a common sense woman who likes to fuck and is going to stick it out with you. Even then you have to work at it together. The upside is you have a family, you have a legacy and you have a constant friend and companion with a shared history together.
I mean seriously, try and shut your eyes and imagine me without Jennifer. Who the hell would I even be?
Monogamous marriage is a life strategy. I 100% seriously do not give a rats ass whether or not you choose to do it yourself. MMSL is not a moral crusade. There are other strategies you can choose to play, and I wish you well in the playing of them. I’m completely serious on that account, I really don’t care what you do – I have poly friends, I have single friends hunting for hook-ups, I have gay friends, I have married lesbian friends, I have friends on their second marriages and player friends too.
I’m just here to explain how to play the monogamous marriage strategy to your best advantage.
So anyway, just to make my “I don’t give a crap” point, here’s a fabulous drag queen with a great message that married guys can use… I think.

Comments

  1. tacomaster says:

    Athol, very good reply to Ponyboy. I think you hit the nail right on the head. To add to what you said–it's important to be "equally yoked". By that I mean, have similar sex drives/libidos. I'm finding this out after the fact but anyway that's my current situation. I know women at work, beautiful, young nurses who tell all of us about how their husbands do not want to have sex with them, never have. I think it's important to be upfront with people. Put all the low sex drive/libido together and they'll be happy. Hell, maybe we should even start an online dating site for them!

    And Ponyboy, I took my marriage vows seriously and wouldn't cheat on my wife despite the low sex count. I would get a divorce before cheating on her. I'm trying to fix the problem before taking it to the next level.

  2. Anonymous says:

    There's no double standard ponyboy, I actually prefer women who like to bang other chicks!

  3. Phoenix says:

    I advocate that guys go out and play the field before they settle down (get it out of your system). So when they are ready to get married they don't have a wandering eye and wonder what it would be like to be with other women (romantically and sexually).

    For guys, a woman who has taken a long ride on the cock-carousel is not something that is valued.

  4. The Outsider says:

    Of course there's a double standard! When people express surprise about that, I wonder if they're paying attention at all or if they are simply being obtuse to make some kind of point about how life is unfair.

    From a woman's perspective, a man with "many" sexual partners (whatever that means) has been pre-selected. Other women have confirmed that he is desirable, so any sons she has by him are likely to be desirable too, and therefore likely to pass on her genes.

    From a man's perspective, a woman with many sexual partners is likely either a) to continue having sex with lots of men, making her a good candidate for a one-night-stand but not a commitment of resources, or b) to be carrying some other man's baby already making her a good candidate for nothing at all.

    We don't explain it to ourselves that way. We talk about "sluts" and "players." But those are just stories we tell ourselves to explain why we act the way we do: the genetic incentives are plain to see. Because of them, it's impossible to imagine a world in which there won't be a double standard.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Good post; it covered quite a bit of what to consider in both your own personality but also of a partner's.

    I'm an alpha female that made the mistake of marrying an alpha male. We had a lot of explosive arguments and a lot of passionate sex. But ultimately we divorced because I couldn't muster up the energy to handle a husband that acted like a coked-up drama queen all the time. I enjoy dating and answering to no one, plus my job requires 70 hours a week. It's not a "nesting" lifestyle.

    To add to Athol's background checks, I'd research your state's laws on alimony and consider a pre-nup. Talk to each other about how you'll handle the money, children, jobs, and aging parents, preferably with a therapist or religious counselor (who knows what trips up couples).

    And lastly, ask yourself if she's into YOU, or if she's just into the idea of getting married. So many women just want babies, or a big house, or to stay at home, or to just be able to flash her ring (as proof that there's nothing "wrong" with her — someone loves her!). Her goal should be you, not a lifestyle or acceptance among the Married People Club.

    –Jaz71

  6. Anonymous says:

    Let's hear these first time post-wedding horror stories!

  7. The way you (or Ponyboy) have phrased things, it sounds like there's an apparent contradiction here: that men are inconsistent and simultaneously put both a high AND low value on a woman with a strong sex drive.

    But the contradiction is merely an illusion. It reflects a limited understanding. The truth is, men almost universally value a woman with a strong, healthy sex drive. That's what keeps his interest and keeps our species procreating. …But what men value 10x more is a woman with that same strong sex drive ACCOMPANIED BY strong self-control over it. Such self-control is most convincingly demonstrated by a low (zero is best) historical partner count. Otherwise, the woman is a cuckold risk and, as social research shows repeatedly, marital happiness suffers.

    It's not very complicated. A woman wants the man who could obtain any woman he wants yet chooses her. A man wants that woman prized by every man but chooses only him.

  8. Anonymous says:

    I'm not so sure that there is a double standard.

    Women seem to be put off marriage with men who have slept with too many people. They either get seen as just for sex, or the women start questioning why none of the others stuck around.

    I've had to advise several men in the last few months (men who are looking to settle down) to be more circumspect when talking to prospective wives about their past sex lives.

    It looks bad if he claims to want marriage but has been a ho. It also looks bad if he wants simple sex but women don't seem to come back for more.

  9. >I can tell you dozens of horror stories of those that have deeply regretted waiting until the wedding to experience sex with their spouse.

    I don't doubt there's the occasional bizarre story. But in reality there are very few un-fixable cases that didn't show some signals WELL BEFORE the wedding–yet these signs were ignored or swept aside. Put differently, if there's a sexual or communication issue so big as to be "deeply regretted" and cause "horror" on the honeymoon, then the couple likely failed much, much earlier at something else other than just sex.

  10. Anonymous says:

    I'll share my friend's honeymoon horror story because I know he doesn't view this site. Him and his fiancee were both virgins, met in church, went through pre-marriage counseling everything. They were both excited about the honeymoon according to him. No red flags, nothing.

    They get to the hotel room and she immediately
    goes to the bathroom to "freshen up". Well this turns into a three hour ordeal and he's trying to get her to relax and coax her out of the barricaded bathroom.

    My friend is kind of strange with definitely a guys
    warped sense of humor. He gets naked and waits
    on the bed in the doggy style position. She comes out and immediately sees his butt (first time ever) and goes ballistic about how he doesn't respect her, he's treating her like a sex object, etc. She gathered all her stuff, stormed out and filed for an enullment that following Monday.

    Tacomaster

  11. Spot on. Thanks.

  12. Athol Kay says:

    The trouble is that "I want to wait until marriage" can be purposely used as a smokescreen to cover up those issues until it's too late.

  13. Athol Kay says:

    You sure that his "drama queen" behavior wasn't related to expecting he'd be getting a wife and mother of his children than a 70 hour a week career woman?

    You've spent the last week talking about him like a fangirl non-stop in dozens of comments.

    Kinda seems like he was the one.

  14. Anonymous says:

    My wife was a "technical" virgin before we got married–we did everything but. The first year of marriage was hard–I look back now and totally think it was the birth control pills. Still challenging but she is a great girl.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Great post Athol.

  16. Dreadpiratk says:

    I think it's incorrect to say that you have to have a full on, hot and heavy sexual relationship prior to marriage to find out if you're 'compatible'. That's just a pair of rationalization hamsters spinning in concert. Seriously, you couldn't tell by making out with you wife that she wanted it or not? And how often she wanted to make out, or perhaps go a bit further? And more importantly, that she was willing to follow your lead sexually while remaining true to her values? Sexuality is a continuum, from first eye contact to intercourse. You don't have to go all the way to the end to see where you'll end up.

    On the other hand, the supposed 'super virgin' strategy is also foolish because you won't have any idea where you'll end up after you cross the finish line. Trying to go from 0 to 100 mph in one night is silly.

  17. Anonymous says:

    Ponyboy is just echoing his feminist indoctrination, courtesy of virtually all media and education today: you can't say that something a woman does is wrong.

    If she has sex with fifty guys and you call her a slut, you hate women and want to enslave them (see the current assault on Rush Limbaugh).

    If she doesn't want to have sex with you at all, then you're objectifying her and don't respect her as a person.

    The rule is simple: what men want is WRONG and what women do is ALWAYS RIGHT, and Ponyboy is sincerely repeating what he has been taught.

  18. Dreadpiratk says:

    Sounds like your friend handled his wife's issues very poorly and without understanding. That can't necessarily be chalked up to the virgin strategy.

  19. Stargate Girl says:

    Sounds like the bride in question has some seriously misconstrued ideas. Feel bad for the guy. But ultimately, he's probably better off without her. Reads like Bat-shit crazy was simmering just below the surface.

  20. tacomaster says:

    Dreadpiratk–what was he supposed to do? He was so shocked she behaved like that. Worst of all, the church they grew up in practically turned against him. She told all of her friends that he was a sexual deviant and a pervert, practically tarnished his reputation.

    Stargate Girl, ya when he told me I felt bad for him too. He's a pretty cool guy, good job, responsible, all of that. This happened to him several years ago and he's better for it.

  21. tacomaster says:

    @Athol

    True.

  22. Ponyboy says:

    Don't worry man, my sex life is A OK.

  23. Ponyboy says:

    That's a pretty funny move on his part, nice way to "break the ice" sorta speak. Too bad (or maybe not) that it back fired.

  24. Athol Kay says:

    I thought it was a good question actually. Hence my post.

  25. Ponyboy says:

    A few days ago, guys like you were whining that they weren't getting enough tail from their wives. Then the next day, a girl who likes sex was being villified for not being marriage material by the same group.

    I guess you fail to see the irony in that.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Just been applying all your theories because they're so different from female ideas. I prefer to not repeat my mistakes.

    If I've come across overly generous about him, it's because I'm trying to be respectful about a man on a guy blog.

    We didn't want children and we hired a cleaning lady, and we went out about 4 days a week, so I know he wasn't looking for Earth Momma. But I was the first woman he'd fallen for that was his equal in terms of education, income, independance, etc. So when he tried to boss me around, I fought back or just did my own thing. In the end, I think he blew up out of frustration. I left because I couldn't live in a warzone.

    Currently am dating a woman, so the guy theories are more for ah-Ha moments of my past and stuff I can pass on to my guy friends (have already recommended your blog).

    –Jaz71

  27. Ponyboy says:

    Hahaha my comment was directed at Anon not Athol. We must have been typing our comments at the same time, or me shortly thereafter.

  28. Ponyboy says:

    Athol…

    Thanks for the post. My question was more rhetorical to draw attention to the irony in the previous two days posts. But maybe you did that on purpose?

    Eitherway, I appreciate your response. The part about alpha-beta balance for the women reasonated with me, as well as taking other things into account other than sexual history when choosing a wife or husband.

    The latter I am really glad that you mentioned.

    I felt that the last few days everyone's basic response to a "frigid" wife was to dump her or cheat on her without considering other aspects she may bring to the relationship.

    Conversely, the highly sexual female was also looked at as off limits without considering other things she may bring to the relationship.

    So I am glad you made that point clearer.

    One thing that the last few days posts have really said when taken as a whole, is that marriage/relationships are complicated.

  29. OMG, that guy dodged a full metal jacket! What a humorless, stiff wench! Hope he found a normal woman who knows how to laugh and doesn't fear the penis?

    I would have been laughing till I collapsed on the floor; my kind of guy!

  30. Anonymous says:

    you work 70 hours a week, how do have the time to be on here all day. working hard?

  31. Anonymous says:

    No kidding. Quick annulment >>>> sexless marriage and messy divorce years later.

    True game would be exploiting that deviant rep with a few curious church ladies. It's a massive DHV.

  32. Anonymous says:

    The problem is this, many pf the same women who choose this easy lifestyle are the same ones who don't give it up after marriage. This makes the whole thing worse, husband feels she liked it before but not with him. Back to the i had my fun now i will settle down with this nice guy and have a family. Five years later she gets the itch again and, i never did love you. I am all for low to no partner count. All the horror stories about waiting till marriage are skewed because most people waiting till marriage nowadays unfortunately have other issues attached that may be the actual reason the are abstaining.

  33. Anonymous says:

    anon, this page stays up on my computer all day. And to stereotype, women are great multitaskers.

    –Jaz71

  34. There's a double standard because the sexes are very different around the studs vs. sluts issue.

    In a general sense I advise both the man and the woman to have as limited of a sexual history as possible. I believe that's been a massive benefit to Jennifer and myself and our happiness. However I also advise very strongly that you need to be assured that you have a good sexual chemistry together before you get married. I can tell you dozens of horror stories of those that have deeply regretted waiting until the wedding to experience sex with their spouse.

    I think it matters VASTLY more that the prospective wife have a fairly and ideally quite low partner count for lots of reasons. I think it’s actually better for the prospective husband to have a good lot of sexual experience. It’s better for the captain first mate dynamic if he’s teaching her some things sexually, from a starting point of her having lots of hunger and enthusiasm.

  35. It takes skillz and higher status for guys to sleep with lots of cute and especially hot girls.

    All it takes for a woman to sleep on a casual basis guys two sex ranks higher than herself is a willingness to spread her legs for him.

    Girls who do spread their legs a lot without demanding indicia commitment and a long lasting relationship first are rightful thought of as sluts. Sluts can be lots of fun for casual sex and flings. It's a poor idea to fall in love with one however much less a marry "former" or "reformed" slut.

  36. Anonymous–

    I enjoy dating and answering to no one, plus my job requires 70 hours a week. It's not a "nesting" lifestyle.

    I'd never marry a woman who works 70hr weeks or who described herself as enjoying answering to no one and having no nesting instincts at all. You sound like a man. No thanks, no matter what you look like.

    I used to work 70hr weeks sometimes and sometimes longer, but I'm a very high earning man. Also it was important to me to taper that down.

  37. Jaz71–

    At least you haven't ripped his children from him or been able to extract huge divorce theft from him, or the indentured servitude of alimony when the wife is no longer doing anything for the husband.

    (In 2007 96% of alimony was paid by men to women.)

  38. Well put.

    Personally I don't mind a few prior partners.

  39. Can I ask if you have any kids and how long the marriage has been?

    Especially if the answer to the first is no and the second is only a few years, I'd tell your wife that though you love her and want her as a life partner, good sex is essential to you and her lack of enthusiasm just isn't working for you. It's either got to be solved or you've got to more on. (Divorce.)

    Why so many American wives think that providing only as much and only the style of sex they're most comfortable with initially is acceptable in a marriage to a man with any options at all, I really don't know.

  40. Yeah, he's fortunate indeed.

    After she claimed he was a pervert because she walked out to him naked and could see his rear end, I'd have trashed her in that church as a total prude afraid of sex and sexuality.

  41. Have you tried the copper IUD?

  42. I think the double standard here isn't that it's OK for a guy to bang a lot of chicks, but not OK for a woman.

    Yuup. That's exactly what I think, so far as a girl I'd consider falling in love with in a LTR not to mention living together or getting married.

    Sluts are fun for casual and flings though.

    I thorough embrace the double standard. It's based on sex differences.

  43. Unfortunately, Doug, many churches, especially the fundamentalist type, are themselves scared shitless or disgusted by sex and sexuality to some degree. Women are supposed to be prudes; a sexually healthy, unashamed woman sets off the slut detector.

    A man displaying his naked rear end in such a fashion (even for laughs)? Must be gay! I'm sure that's how the Virgin Bride played it to her sympathizers.

  44. Anonymous says:

    Hi Doug1,

    With regards to sounding like a man, I am actually a very typical modern college grad who has a metropolitan life. I don't date people that want a nest.

    I didn't ask for alimony because my job pays well, the same as his. We had no kids because I don't want any. All I wanted was out of a marriage that started off with my best friend and ended with someone who clearly thought I was to be a subservient trophy wife.

    –Jaz71

  45. Anonymous says:

    No need now, I have been fixed. I agree with Athol, I don't recommend vasectomy to anyone–it caused a crash in my testosterone.

  46. Jaz71 – you are looking for something other than a more traditional marriage. I don't mean this as an insult in any way, but you are in NO WAY what I would be looking for, if I was looking. As stated above, I think being in a LTR with you would be very much like being married to one of my guy friends. Again, not a rip, just an observation. In fact, I tend to always look for woman in "nurturing" fields like medicine or teaching. I am definitely looking for a nester. I do want my SO to be my best friend, but I'm not looking for a "buddy" to go bowling with.

    In short, I really don't like the aggressive, advanced degree, career driven, "too busy for kids" type woman at all. Which is cool. But, that means you need to be picking your mates from a totally different pool of men, if/when you get back to dating men that is…

  47. I'm 41. I wouldn't expect to find a virgin. Hell, a handful of partners isn't a deal breaker. What I want to know is: how did she get to her number? Where they all ONS/Casual? Did she have LTRs. Did she have both? Were the LTRs more recent?

    See, a high count to me means, check further. Not necessarily run and hide. Unless the number is truly shocking, and then I wouldn't be able to even conceive of it. Whats a high number? For the age bracket I'm looking in, probably 15 at max. And, of those 15, the casual stuff would have to be WAY in the past, as in like over 10 years ago when she was in her early-mid 20's. And, I would want to see some proof that she has managed to have and maintain at least a few LTRs previous to us getting together.

    In general, the less previous partners she had, the less I would feel the need to dig further. Up until that high number, at which point I wish her good luck and walk away.

  48. Ponyboy – not all men are hypocritical about the double standard. I'm all about my SO having the lowest previous partner count possible, but my own count is low as well. Instead of going the casual route, I did the serial monogomy thing from the time I was 15 on. The shortest relationship I've had was four years (not counting my current, which I'm hoping makes it longer than my previous marriage of 12 years!) The longest I ever had to go completely "without" was about 10 months straight. Now, the last four years of my marriage were sexless by definition, but I did still manage to snag a quickie here and there. (of course I realize now it was probably when she was ovulating…)

    So, that is how I managed to get to 41 and keep my count low. I wasn't going without sex at all, I just always tend to have some type of LTR going. And, I bet I had far more sex than plenty of PUA guys. Just that all the sex I was having was with the same few woman. :P

  49. Oops. to be clear I am 41 years old. I certainly don't have 41 previous partners. LOL

  50. Ponyboy says:

    Hi Doug1…

    I'm not sure where the confusion here came from, I am very happy with my sex life.

    I appreciate your suggestion, in fact I had that conversation with her about 15 years ago when we first started seriously dating. I let her know up front that a good sex life is important, should be part of the fun being together for so long.

    To answer your more direct questions, we have two young kids, we have been together for 15 years, married for six.

    Her enthusiasm is just fine for where we are at at this point in our lives.

  51. Doug1 – Hey man! Long time no see. ;)

    "I think it’s actually better for the prospective husband to have a good lot of sexual experience."

    I won't disagree, but I would like to point out that having a lot of sexual experience doesn't necessarily mean a lot of different partners. I would even say that at least for some men, they might benefit a great deal by trying for LTR style relationships with lots of sex, since a monogamous marriage is exactly that. I know I learned how to be responsive to what a woman wants, learned how to read a woman during the 'act', and how to build off what I learn to improve the overall outcome over the long haul.

    Surely if the choice for a man is no sex or lots of casual sex, many will see casual as the way to go. I would say that any guy like myself that has real issues about engaging in casual sex (for whatever reason), there is nothing wrong with serial monogamy. I pretty much just tried to see if each of my GF's could become my wife. Because of the age when I started dating, my first several LTRs were rather long without the wedding bells. I certainly had NO desire to get married at 20yo, but at that time I intended to eventually marry the woman I was with. In the end, the age difference (and my lack of maturity) did those relationships in. My marriage tanked because I sank into betatude about five years in, and rode that sinking ship all the way to the ocean floor. :P

    I'm now on my fourth LTR, and I'm hoping to keep this one healthy now that I figured out what the hell I was doing wrong!

  52. The economist in me says look at the winning behavior. Everyone wants to appear attractive. To that end, men exaggerate their number higher than reality and women purport smaller numbers than reality. Both men and women acknowledge the double standard. It is neither good nor bad; it simply is.

  53. Anonymous says:

    Horror story of my friend:

    She waited until marriage for sex that she was OH SO EXCITED to finally be getting. He did not, but once he got back into church (and where they met) he decided to wait til marriage. They did other things during their engagement and she said their 8 day honeymoon was AWESOME (as in getting twice a day). They come home from honeymoon and have sex exactly 4 times the rest of the year. Not because of her but because of him. She tried everything to get him "motivated" but he turned her down all the time. She stayed with him for another four years wherein they had sex less than 20 times over that period. Finally filed for divorce. Where did that one go wrong?

    -L-

  54. Anonymous says:

    He didn't find her sexualy attractive. Maybe he is gay, has a low sex drive, or she's ugly.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Athol, my question probably doesn't belong here, but there isn't a MWSL blog. Married Woman.

    How does a married woman increase her Alpha?

    I do just fine on the Beta female traits, but even though I'm good looking and healthy, guys see me as the Girl Next Door, the one to protect from the PUAS. Even my husband thinks I'm not sexy enough. Cute, not hot.

  56. I should have made it clearer that my above questions were to Tacoman. This reply nesting but not very deep commenting structure can be a bit hard to navigate.

  57. The MacNut says:

    Read the "Girl Game" posts on this blog, they give good suggestions on upping your female Alpha.

  58. Anonymous says:

    Ted, after perusing through quite a few posts, I've concluded that most men here just want a woman who looks up at them adoringly. Ignorance is bliss, right? So her count must be lower, her education less, income lower, and her travels fewer.

    Interestingly enough, Athol & Jennifer do not fit this profile, and they're the ones whose marriage works great.

    –Jaz71

  59. haha cool. no problem.

  60. Anonymous says:

    "It's not very complicated. A woman wants the man who could obtain any woman he wants yet chooses her. A man wants that woman prized by every man but chooses only him."

    I just stole this quote and will use it in the future

  61. Anonymous says:

    I second what MacNut says. Read all of his "girl game" posts. In general 1) up your physical attractiveness as much as you reasonably can according to HIS taste(you probably already know what he likes to see when he looks at a woman) 2) Make yourself more sexually available and responsive when he initiates

  62. Anacaona says:

    So you did the exact opposite of what men want and your marriage still failed (and yes even if you walked out your marriage failed) why in the world would any person with one cent of common sense will listen to you if they want a marriage that last? I would say the fact that you rather work 70 hours a week than spent it with your SO means that you loved your work more than your man and you proved it so again why would anyone look at you as a source of marital wisdom?

  63. Anacaona says:

    Raised Catholic and if that would had happened in my church the bride would had been the one mocked endlessly for being "afraid of the penis" and probably labeled a closeted lesbian, sent her to counseling and I have plenty of fundy friends that would react the same way. Adam and Eve were naked and the first mandate in the bible is to multiply and be fruitful so yeah… Not all churches get their women to be afraid of sex.

  64. Anonymous says:

    We had sex 7-14x/week. That's why anyone would listen.

    Also, many marriages split because of verbal, physical abuse or mental illness. It doesn't make my advice on how to get laid by your wife any less valuable than the next person who has success in that area.

    Thank you for pointing out the fact that working 70 hours a week is because we'd rather earn money than be with our spouse. You just admitted the biggest reason why wives cheat and divorce their workaholic men.

    –Jaz71

  65. Anonymous says:

    No children and we are about to have our 2 year anniversary. I'm 31 by the way.

    Tacomaster—-

  66. Anonymous says:

    This is Tacomaster—

    Kind of off topic but related to what Julia said. In regards to being called gay, have you ever heard of a man falsely accused of that by a woman who was dumped by a guy?

  67. Anonymous says:

    @ -L-
    Sorry to hear about your friend's experience. Some men have low sex drives (see my first reply way up at the top). Did she nag him or disrespect him? That could effect things. I'd need more information. Ages? Looks?

    —Tacomaster

  68. Tacomaster–

    Well then I'd seriously consider an exit strategy. That is divorce.

    Be SURE you don't have kids until this is resolved one way or another.

    If you otherwise are very happy with your wife I guess I'd give her a chance but I would say that you're contemplating divorce if this doesn't get dramatically better soon.

    This business of her not being comfortable watching porn. Screw that. She's gonna watch porn with you or you're filing.

    Really, I'd read her the riot act.

    Her sexual behavior is simply unacceptable.

    With no kids and only a three year marriage you thank god are in the fortunate position of her not having mountains and mountains of legal advantage on her side. She won't get alimony in almost any state if she's being working at all. Yeah there'd be some divorce theft most likely, since you probably make more than her, but over three years it can't be too enormous.

    I'd tell her it's up to her to turn the sexuality in the marriage around or you're out of there. Yeah be will and eager to help. But it's up to her.

  69. Oh, only two years. Even more reason to do what I suggest above. Even less divorce theft.

  70. Anonymous says:

    Warning: it takes time & money.

    1.) It's all about heels, so no more tennis shoes (except for exercise). Year round pedicures are necessary.
    2.) Nothing baggy. Clothes should fit, but not be skin tight or show 2" of cleavage. Skirts and sundresses as much as you can.
    3.) Thongs under clothes in public, commando at home.
    4.) No sweats around the house.
    5.) Go long hair, stay away from bangs (cute, not sexy), and no feathered back mullets. Simply tell him you're going to grow your hair out, then hand him Cosmopolitan Magazine, and ask him to pick out about 3 different hairstyles he likes.

    You didn't say whether you are in a sexless marriage or not. Some of the biggest killers of a man's desires can be your behavior, so looking like a sexy vixen won't change much. A nagging or harping wife is death. So is depression or anxiety. And if you are a clingy, begging, or whiny person, you will disgust him.

    So here's what has always worked for me: smile, do activities that make you happy, watch comedies and laugh. Sing and dance around the house, pay strangers compliments, and enjoy the way your ass sways when you walk in those heels. Every guy is attracted to a happy girl.

    Final Warning: you will inadvertantly attract Married Men in crappy marriages.

    –Jaz71

  71. One thing to keep in mind. Many women will threatened by divorce might subconsciously want to get preggers hopping to keep her man, or a good part of his income (esp. if it's strong). Do NOT rely on her taking the pill. Implanon is a lot safer. But she could always go to the doctor and have it removed secretly.

    I don't know. Personally I think I'd just stop having sex with her and file for divorce. You've given her awhile to try to turn the sex around and she's a cold fish. I don't think that tends to change all that much, after a woman has had sex a good lot. She's unlikely to ever be a sexual firecracker.

  72. Also, many marriages split because of verbal, physical abuse or mental illness.

    American women call just about any arguments including ones they were by far mostly responsible for mental "abuse" these days in this highly misandrous feminist environment and are absolutely not to be believed without corroborating evidence. They also lie about and / or enormously exaggerate about physical abuse. Especially heavily feminist careerist women like you do.

    American wives cheat and divorce their workaholic men after they pressure them to make more money, buy a bigger house in a more expensive neighborhood and spend most of his money.

  73. Also raised Catholic, Ana, and my experience was as I mentioned; I've also known and worked with many fundamentalist Christians and again, what I posted, holds true. The level of ignorance (some women confided in me) about sexuality was truly amazing.

    If some of them (pastors, church groups) are getting out of the "sex is dirty filthy nasty and only for sluts" mode, then good. About time.

  74. Anacaona says:

    Well I'm latina I think there is a difference between puritan land christians and catholics and the rest of the world.
    In here it seems that most people have sexual issues that they at least attribute to the church teachings while on our culture I had never heard such a thing.
    I often had this discussion with my husband about Islamic women, I meet many of them in my country and they were happy smart capable women but they came from Lebanon and Morocco so their faith had a different cultural context than in the really oppressive countries. Funny enough till I started to live here I didn't noticed that all faiths get modeled by the context including ours.

  75. Anacaona says:

    Not buying it.
    The sex was explosive and lasted as long as the relationship was tolerable I think there are more than enough men that could teach that and the people that come here don't come from tips of how to have a healthy sex life and then get dumped or dump their spouses.
    So your husband should had cheated on you? Good to know that you find cheating so justifiable.
    No to mention that women that don't want workaholic husband can just try and talk to them, get a job themselves, seek counseling anyone that that fist reaction to a marital problem is to dump or cheat shouldn't be married in the first place.

  76. On a Journey says:

    So sad. This could be my friend but there were other compounding issues. I am so sorry but good to know you got out of that sexless marriage.

  77. Anonymous says:

    Anacaona,

    Okay, alot of personal attacks based on what? I don't know you. Sure I worked long hours; so did he. I do believe my ex was manic depressive, because I could find no evidence of cocaine use to explain his rages and yelling.

    As far as taking my advice, no one has to. Why are you getting all agitated about my personal story? Mine failed because my husband married me to change me, then went ballistic when I didn't want to "dumb it down" to feed his insecure ego.

    Ignore my posts if you don't like them.

    –Jaz71

  78. Anonymous says:

    Doug, domestic violence is across all education and income levels:
    http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/

    This blog is about fixing the sex to prevent divorce, and that is definitely an area in my own marriage that worked great. Athol has made it clear that ABSENT mental or physical problems, his methods will usually work, and I am in full agreement.

    –Jaz71

  79. Is not a personal attack what you had failed to do is accepting responsibility on the failure of your marriage or your failing to select a man that matched your dreams of long hours and lots of sex.
    Then you say that women that are in your partner situation are justified on cheating and divorcing.
    Then you say "I do think he was manic depress" unless you are certified psychologists all this is your speculation.
    I take issue when people with egos of the size of the moon come here claiming that their marriage failed but they didn't had a thing to do with it when is obvious that they do and come to latch in wiser's people methods as to look wise and cultured and all knowing.
    No to mention you are missing the point. Athol's recommend Alpha and Beta you were all Alpha and no Beta you have no idea how to make a marriage work, can you accept that? You might know how to get laid like tile but guess what getting hot sex and nothing more also means your marriage was crappy.
    You could also ignore my responses if you don't like the harsh truths of life.

  80. Anonymous says:

    Thanks for your upset response to my marriage, Ana. I understand you are upset that I would leave a marriage to a man I believed to be mentally ill, instead of confirmed mentally ill. Guess what? You can't reason with Crazy.

    You can be mad, write angry posts, but I'm guessing that it does nothing to change your own situation.

    –Jaz71

  81. Anacaona says:

    Yeah yeah yeah. A man yells at you and he is Crazy. Is not like men ever can get frustrated and upset, specially at a workaholic wife.
    I'm not angry you get angry when you read the truth and go back to lalaland were you are perfect and never do anything wrong.
    Good for the people here to see exactly how good is to listen to your advice.
    And you can ask Athol he knows how happy my marriage is and guess what includes good sex and meaningful connection and we both are crazy..for each other. But I'm sure your desk at work and your bank account give you all the love you need but if they don't, are you going to divorce them too?

  82. Jaz- do I want my wife to adore me? Sure! That sounds pretty good. But, more importantly, I want her to put me higher on her priority list than her career, her hobbies, and her friends.

    I look at my LTRs as a lifetime investment. I'm not looking for a female friend to also have sex with, I'm looking for an investment partner of sorts. That means, our relationship comes first before all other things, other than our children. Until they are grown and on their own, they come first, our relationship second, and then she and I can do things for ourselves. Yep, I put her interests before mine, and I expect her to do the same for me.

    What I won't do is sit around while my SO works 70 hours a week. I assume if she is doing that, then her career is more important to her than me, our children, and our home. I'm all for splitting household tasks equally, but is,she is working that much, then I'm picking up the slack.

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