Game For Christians

Athol:  Via email I’ve somewhat frequently been asked to write “MMSL for Christians.”  On one hand I dread the backlash for simply daring to write for Christians while wearing my Team Atheist attire (it’s suspicously like a Next Generation Star Trek Science Officer uniform).  On the other hand I also know that a good percentage of my readership are Christian and experience the awkward tension of finding that MMSL “works”, but finding it morally diffcult at times as well.

My primary goal is to help everyone have a better sex life and happier marriages. If via MMSL people happen to get over the image of Atheists as enraged souless baby eaters that’s great. I’ve yet to receieve a single email saying someone deconverted because of my writings. No biggie. It’s not the goal.

Below is an email part of a back and forth with a Christian reader. He asks a lot of good questions. I have some answers to all this myself, but it’s a lot of work to frame them correctly without accidently saying something that triggers violence in the comments. Just please accept that I am taking this seriously. My own answers may not be immediate.

Anyway…. have a crack at some answers in the comments.

 

Reader:  I am mainly concerned about how core Christian values and beliefs match up with married game and where they don’t.  My real question is “What are the mismatches?” and “What do your Christian readers that are taking the red pill think about the mismatches?”

For you, the mismatches are probably not a problem, of course, because you don’t subscribe to Christian beliefs (I respect that).  But I think some of your reader’s might have some problems with some things.  I do.  And it bothers me. I don’t want to go against my faith, but I do want a emotionally and sexually fulfilling marriage (and I wasn’t able to do it without game).  So there I am.  I have no choice but to ask these tough questions for myself.

Like we both have said, there is much that matches up, but here I want to list some of  the mismatches that I would like to get input on.

(1) Attracting other Women 

I can’t deny that it works to attract my wife, but the concept seems to go against the grain.  I think most any Christian has certainly been taught against this.  And even Jesus said “any man who looks at another women… is toast” paraphrased of course.

For me, I have to tone this down.  I just talk friendly with other women whether they are old ladies, homely women, or hotties.  If they show interest in me then they do, its not that I’m really after anything (or am I?  I am doing it to attract my wife, so I have a motive)  But the pre-selection really only happens when your wife sees somebody who is a potential threat to her show clear interest that is not just friendly.  And this, by Christian standards would be inappropriate, since I am essentially soliciting the attention, even though I have no plans to act on anything.  It would basically be characterized as flirting with temptation rather than just avoiding the temptation.

(2) Alpha attitude (at least parts of it)

Cocky, willingness to break the rules, being overtly sexual, indifference to female emotion.  Or how about a personal favorite that my wife and I like to laugh about and you have blogged about “women love assholes”.

I think these pretty much speak for themselves as to why they go against Christian beliefs.  Of course a lot of Alpha traits match up well, confidence, leadership, not being swayed easily off course match up great.

The persona of Alpha is basically bad boy on the outside, but deep down probably a good guy or at least the potential to be a good guy.  The female sex drive wants to have an alpha to try and tame, but if she does tame him (hello Christian marriage in many respects), then the attractions takes a nose dive.

(3) Indifference to emotion

This is one I’d like to hit on specifically.  I don’t know that you have specifically discussed “indifference” in one of your posts, but it has come up in many reader comments to your posts.  This one is important to me, because this is one of the biggest things that improved my marriage.  But at the same time, like some of your readers, this is frustrating too.  I don’t really want to be indifferent to my wife, but she finds it very attractive.  The more indifferent I am to her, the more she is all over me the way I want her to be.  Women are attracted to indifference from men and I understand why, its part of the mystery, its the wondering whether or not he’s into me that gets them going.  This creates the chase.  Indifference also appears as confidence, because when you really don’t care what somebody else thinks, well that is pretty much confidence (or at least the appearance of it).  Indifference to her emotions also sets her free to experience all her emotions without worrying about yours (this is a good thing).

The problem is indifference can’t really be “gamed” in or faked.  It has to be real or she’ll she right through it.  But as I begin to feel indifferent to my wife’s emotions and I see her attraction go up, its kind of worrisome that I actually feel indifferent where as I didn’t before.  To quote one of your reader posts “I can’t love her as much as I want to because she will only take it from me if I won’t give it to her”.  So, even with the Christian matchup question aside, this topic would make a great post.

But, the Christian matchup issue here is that indifference is pretty much the opposite of love.  Hard to match that up.  Isn’t it?

(4) Willingness to walk away

This is at the heart of the red pill.  There really is no such thing as unconditional love in a marriage.  This goes right against Christian wedding vows, for better or worse, til death do us part, yada yada.

This is a tough nut for most people in a long term Marriage.  You can’t be willing to walk away??  But, we all know, if we’ve experienced the red pill that you won’t get what you want out of the marriage unless your willing to walk if you don’t get it.

“Nice Guy” put your needs first.  Insist that your needs be met. Christianity would say always to put the other’s needs above your own.  Yet, we all know how attracted women are to nice guys who do this religiously to their wife, “hopelessly devoted” is major turn off.  But this so hard for a “nice guy” with Christian values to accept.  Personally, I am way past this, but I still wish for the blue pill here “why can’t my wife be insanely attracted to me because I am “hopelessly devoted” to her?  Based on the Christian values I learned growing up it should be this way.

 

(5) Hot Kinky Sex

This one I don’t really have a problem with but thought I would throw it in.  It does present some Christian match up questions and we all know that many Christian women have hang ups about sex based on Christian teachings while growing up (my wife did for years).

The question here is what is acceptable and what isn’t.  Christianity doesn’t seem to allow for anything goes in the bedroom.  Lots of religions have made statements against anal, oral, etc etc.  We all know that both parties in the marriage need to be comfortable with whatever is going on, but is there any basis in Christian teaching for limiting sexual behaviors in a marriage to rule out certain things?  (I’m not talking about hardcore porn stuff here either, just the stuff it actually takes to get your wife sexually satisfied. If this could be done with just the missionary position and only p & v, well then that would be fine I suppose and we wouldn’t have this question).

 

Ok, that just a shotgun of items and I’m just throwing these things out from the hip, but these are all things I have given serious thought to as I have taken the red pill.  I know that you are trying to help people have better marriages and you have helped mine.  So, even though you are not a Christian, I think it would be worth hitting some of these issues for those that are.  I’m assuming that you have other Christian readers taking the red pill with similar questions on their mind.  Of course, maybe I’m your only Christian reader :).  In that case, well too bad for me. But I think you probably have a lot?

Let me know what you think.

Comments

  1. I don’t think there’s much conflict with Christianity; the conflict is with Feminized Churchianity. (‘m a Christian, but essentially agnostic – I don’t believe the Bible is God’s perfect word, but it sure is full of truths.)

    1.) “Flirting” with other women is not remotely adulterous if you have no intention of breaking your vows. The true essence of flirting is flattery. You charming the socks (and ONLY the socks) off of women, displays your high value. It reminds your wife that you HAVE high value. It’s not even dishonest. It’s simply displaying your dominance publicly.

    2.) Alpha is dominance. A Christian husband leads, and there’s nothing in the Bible that says it can’t be done with attitude. Confidence acts a lot like arrogance.

    3.) Are you indifferent to your wife, or to her shit tests, the inconsequential BS she frets and obsesses about? You may ACT indifferent to her as a person, but how would you feel if she died? I’ll venture to guess you’re not indifferent to her at all; you’re just indifferent to the most inconsequential of her “feelings.” Again, a perfectly honest display of high value. As the head of the family, you have more important concerns than her whims. Nothing unBiblical there. Very unChurchian, though; Churchianity demands a husband show his love by spoiling his wife instead of leading her. Real love isn’t all roses and candlelit dinners.

    4.) God may “hate divorce,” but there are Biblically sound reasons for divorce. A spouse breaking his or her vows is among them. I’m not sure if divorce is REQUIRED under certain circumstances, but in the strictest Biblical terms, a man would be abdicating his responsibility by not divorcing. If he doesn’t divorce a woman who cheated, he would be accepting her standards and her leadership. (Besides, there’s a huge double standard here. Churchian women are allowed and even encouraged to divorce any husband they deem an unfit leader. If he’s not following Christ to her satisfaction, she needs to be free to marry a man who will.) Being willing to walk away from a wife who betrays, is another sign of leadership – it shows that his commitment to God is above his commitment to his wife.

    5.) Any sex between spouses that is consensual and not dangerous, isn’t sinful. If God didn’t want us to do it, he wouldn’t have made it pleasurable. Such restriction are nothing but puritanical Churchianity.

    Yes, I realize this is very a simplistic view, and I don’t apologize for it. The Bible can be used to justify pretty much ANYTHING, it merely depends upon who is doing the justifying. Game is a display of dominance. Male dominance is a key value throughout the Bible, and it’s also how men were designed to act. Feminism, within the church and without, refuses to believe that. So what what are you going to believe? The Bible as verified by natural law (and vice versa) or the recently feminized teachings of the modern “Christian” Church?

    Sorry for the rant…

  2. For Christian men, I highly recommend the book “Wild at Heart” by John Eldredge. It frames “alpha” in a Christian light, and describes a man’s need to take risk and pursue his quest in life — and that if a woman forces him to give that up, she also emasculates him.

    Keep in mind that there are lots of ways to be alpha without be an asshole, per se.
    - Physical accomplishment in sports (even if it’s just hosting a weekly basketball game)
    - Flying an airplane or motorcyle (in a responsible way)
    - Wearing a leather jacket
    - Hunting and bringing back meat
    - Disaster preparedness
    - Teaching a woman how to shoot a firearm
    - Martial arts / self-defense classes

  3. LongLostFriend says:

    As a Christian, here is my take on the alleged “mismatches.”

    1. The MAP doesn’t necessarily entail pursuing the attention of other women. Many readers who have written to Athol have indicated their surprise at how the attraction of other women is a surprising natural result of the MAP rather than an end in itself. Remember that, for a married man, the goal isn’t to create options that you intend on pursuing; rather, it is a means of increasing the attraction of your wife as she notices that you are valued by other women as well.

    2. The “backbone” that a Beta has when exhibiting Alpha is very much in keeping with Christian leadership. Without trying to twist the Gospels into something more palatable to the manosphere, Jesus exhibits both the Alpha leadership of his church and the Beta nurturing and self-sacrifice. Both co-exist perfectly and harmoniously.

    3. Perhaps “indifference” to her emotions would not be the best way to frame it in a Christian context. Instead, does Christ bend to every capricious whim and emotion of those who belong to him? I wouldn’t say that Jesus is indifferent to our fallen emotions, but he is going to perfectly lead and not cater to our selfishness or pettiness or resentment.

    Within the context of a marriage, we men are, of course, imperfect. But so are our wives. Being the captain does not mean being completely indifferent to her desires, but it does mean that you and your decisions will not be governed by them. Furthermore, there are a lot of passages in Scripture that urge God’s people to seek him. It is nonsensical to consider seeking God (or Christ) if he is at not, at least in some sense, aloof at times.

    4. I, too, have a problem reconciling the “willingness to walk away” with the Christian view of marriage. What I can say is that the church should be taking a much more biblical and active role in stepping in to discipline wives who act treacherously toward their husbands. If a wife is withholding sex on a regular basis, threatening to divorce her husband unbiblically, or not submitting to his headship within the family, that is when pastors and elders should be alerted and get their hands dirty with addressing her sin.

    (For those not married yet, there does indeed need to be a complete willingness to walk away and serious examination of her character BEFORE making the vows.)

    5. While the Christian may have a hang-up with certain things that fall within the realm of kinkiness (degradation and humiliation of the spouse in the bedroom comes to my mind), there is still a wide range of thrilling sex which is kinky and playful and very hot. It is not a choice between the missionary position and scat, in other words. Do what is honoring to your wife and to God, but the bedroom is not a zone for you to become uncomfortable with asserting your dominance and leadership. Your sexual relationship is the erotic expression of what holds true in all the other spheres of your marriage as well.

  4. rycamor says:

    Yes, as a Christian reader, I don’t see what the big problem is. The sum total of what the New Testament says about marriage doesn’t really take that much space, and it mostly boils down to

    - Wives should willingly submit to husbands (as game teaches, this is sexy–what a surprise), but not to the point of disobeying God’s moral code (ergo this is not a question of making an unreasoning slave of the wife)
    - Husbands should love their wives and protect them (so this rules out the husband taking advantage of or emotionally abusing his wife)
    - Neither husband or wife should deny each other sexually, except for short-term devotional/meditative reasons.
    - Divorce is a last resort, and should only be used in cases of unfaithfulness (but the possibility is out there).

    Looks to me like there are some fairly good checks and balances in this system.

    Now obviously there is a lot expected of the Christian in general and all of that should apply to marriage as well, but the traditional Biblical picture of the Christian man is not of a doormat but one of boldness, and being completely unimpressed with the trappings of power (I.E. being uncowed by the alpha-ness of other males). Look at the interactions of Jesus with society and you see Alpha all the way. You see a man with hardly a worldly possession to his name willing to call out the hypocrisy of preening religious and political leaders of the time, and do so with cutting wit and no apology. Alpha.

    The biggest question modern Christian men should ask themselves is do they have the balls to be a real Christian? Or is this the Christianity of syrupy self-help messages and constant calls from the pulpit to pedestalize women while tearing down men? Modern popular Christian culture has quite a lot of soul-searching to do these days, methinks.

    In fact, the only area where I at one time had some difficulty was the concept of self-sacrifice and how it applies to marriage. Too often Christian men think that being called to a life of sacrifice means they have to put up with whatever crap the woman throws in their faces, and just… take it stoically, meekly. First: both husband and wife should realize that marriage itself is a sacrifice for a man. That applies especially in an age when sex and female attention can be gotten so easily without any commitment. Secondly, the point of sacrifice is not the sacrifice itself, but the result. If you make a ‘sacrifice’ (for example, giving in to her shrill request to serve her in some way, or to buy something you can’t afford), and the result is a less happy wife and a less happy husband, and a weaker marriage, then this is not a meaningful sacrifice, is it? So boundaries must be drawn, and women respect a man with boundaries. It becomes a little harder when you must stand your ground in an occasion where you can benefit by being a little… unethical, and your wife wants you to take that road, but again holding firm and sticking to your honor is the mark of a true man. And if you do sacrifice for the good of wife or children, it must never be with a “see what I gave up for you?” attitude. Never ever. Again that is not true sacrifice. Act as if you made no sacrifice at all, but did exactly what you wanted to. It’s the Christian way, and the Alpha way.

  5. The Biblical answer: King David sinned when he lost his mission, decided Bathsheba just “had to be” his, and acted decidedly unalpha: the white knight, who, for the sake of a woman, abused his leadership and sent his loyal follower to death.

    The theological answer: follow the Example and model Alpha and Omega (how is this so different from Athol’s “beta/alpha” mix?).

    The satanic answer: Understand that Game may only be the rules of this world: playing by the world’s rule only makes you in the world, not of it.

    The eternal answer: Understand that Game may be a blurred reflection of the Kingdom of Heaven. Playing its rules may give you insight and wisdom.

    The creationist answer: Like it or not, dude, its how we are made. Understanding the creation (in the right frame) helps you to better understand the creator.

    The practical answer: better relationships result from learning and advancing in Game. Period. Better relationships are a model from God Himself. Do what is right, and rest easy.

    The feminist church is godless idolotry. Nice guys worship Asherah poles and mistake them for crosses.

  6. I think the indifference thing is a critical point, and I’m sure a full post on the subject would be great.

    In my mind, MMSL and game (at least in practical application) are about behavior modification. So is religion.

    The former is intended to improve your personal relationships, the latter – community at large.

    Or put another way, if it’s ok for your pastor to encourage you to live a better life, why can’t you change yourself to have a better wife?

  7. Strong Man says:

    Great questions. I’ve already written a review of mmsl from this perspective, but I wasn’t trying to tackle the whole blog and comments.

    I believe a careful reading of the whole Bible and especially the New Testament shows Jesus was alpha. He boldly pursued his vision, harshly attacked others at times, showed a deep commitment to His principles and mission that could come across as indifference, and entertained multiple women at once. He also was a good beta with his love for children and his kindness to sinners and dregs of society.

    As to married bedroom activities, in genesis, God commanded us to “be one flesh” completely separate from the command to mutiply. Not having sex is breaking a commandment-but the bible gives no rules about what that looks like.

    I do struggle with threatening divorce especially when kids are involved, but I’m now thinking with some people that may be the only way to get their attention and actually fix the marriage. I also disagree with Athol’s casual attitude about porn and feel that could be a bigger concern for many Christian women. Having said that, I’ve also written that religious people are probably much more uptight about porn than they should be and that might be making the problem worse.

    It would be interesting some time to take game principles and match them up with the Bible. I’ve done a little of that in my blog, but not a lot-mostly because the Pick Up Artists have disgusted me and I don’t like their descriptions of using game to “bang” lots of different women.

  8. I actually think you should write a version of your work for Christians, if you personally have no problem with it.
    First you were a christian yourself so you know a lot of the rules, you might not be spiritual compatible with them anymore but you are morally compatible (married a virgin and in a monogamous relationship with children…) and Christians need the help, Dalrock’s has a lot of analysis of how bad the state of christian marriage is, having something out there for them is better than what they have and its also good business there is a huge market for Christian advice and most of it is bad (Fireproof levels of bad).
    I think you just need to be honest about your current spiritual state and let them choose if they want the help or not. There is no harm in that I think, YMMV.

  9. Jack Dublin says:

    1) Don’t confuse attraction with temptation. We don’t require cute 22 year-old girls to wear fat suits and bad make-up at church. Be an alpha manly man. Be attractive. Serve the Lord.
    2) Wealthy exec, starving artist, drug dealer. All three can be alpha. All three are very different. Yet only the dealer would qualify for ‘bad boy’. Don’t constrain yourself to a cliched definition. As for ‘taming an alpha’? Wrong. Women want to BE tamed. To be putty in your hands.
    3) You are the lighthouse in the storm of her emotions. She rages, you stand as before. When the storm passes you remain as her unmoved center. Remember this: indifference to her fleeting and irational emotions is NOT INDIFFERENCE TO HER.
    4) Willingness to walk is not equal to divorce. It can be walking from a childlike tantrum. I don’t just sit and listen to a nine year old whine. Why would that change with the addition of a decade. As to the second part, as head of the family you may have to put her needs ahead of your own. Her NEEDS. She needs food clothing and shelter. She does not need to be a petulent child.
    “Based on the Christian values I learned growing up it should be this way.” The world isn’t fair. A girl should be able to walk through the bad part of town in nothing but sandals. We don’t live in a fair world. Do what I do. Make it unfair in your favor.
    5) “Lots of religions have made statements against anal, oral, etc etc.” We are not interested in lots of religions. Lots of religions are wrong. Read your Bible. Go through it with a fine-toothed comb if you see fit. Start with the laws of the OT. After you have finished to your satisfaction…Wreck that Chick

    note: If any of this came of as offensive to anyone…then its time to stop being a wussy.

  10. Suz says:

    1.) “Flirting” with other women is not remotely adulterous if you have no intention of breaking your vows. The true essence of flirting is flattery. You charming the socks (and ONLY the socks) off of women, displays your high value. It reminds your wife that you HAVE high value. It’s not even dishonest. It’s simply displaying your dominance publicly.
    ==============

    I would agree with that, but I’d also add that flirting is only okay as long as both you and the object of your flirtations know that it’s going no further. You don’t have to break it down with The Talk, just keept it light and superficial – something that briefly brightens up two peoples’ day and reminds your spouse that you’re high value.

    As long as you’re doing all that, I see no reason to not flirt, and many reasons to do so.

  11. Just about my comment above:

    I know it’s probably deeply obvious to a lot of people, but there are some Christians (and people of other religions) out there that struggle with flirting. I remember the “relationships and marriage” talks in church as a teen, being told that flirting was wrongwrongwrong.

    Apparently, women must avoid it because men automatically think that they’re getting sex. And men must avoid it because women think that the men either (1) want to bone them or (2) marry them. The saying was something along the lines of “women must guard men’s eyes, men must guard women’s hearts”.

    Even at the time, it completely contradicted everything I saw in the real world, where people were perfectly able to flirt without sex. marriage or hurting each other’s feelings, and where it seemed to improve peoples’ moods and their relationships. But it’s a very hard mentality to get beyond.

  12. Hai guise. I’m a Christian and I will endeavor to explain the answers to your questions that I have found.

    Firstly, I don’t think Athol should write a ‘Christianized’ version of MMSL. As we’ll see as I answer the gentleman’s questions, the problem in most cases isn’t with Game, but with the modern Christian’s shallow and PC-ified understanding of Christianity.

    As always, the usual caveats about any Christian teaching apply. “By two or three witnesses let every word be confirmed.” Look this stuff up yourself, pray it over, alone and with your wife. YMMV.

    1) Attracting Other Women
    What Jesus said on this matter was: “Any man who looks at another woman to lust over her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Then he said: “If your eye offends you, pluck it out, for it is better for one member to perish than for your whole body to be cast into Hell.” I don’t know any Christians who are prepared to literally pluck out their own eyes to stop themselves from sinning.

    I think you can go a bit further than just being ‘friendly.’ Teasing and light negging other women in the same way you might a guy mate or a kid sister. Remember too that relationships need both Alpha and Beta to work, and the Beta side of being able to demonstrate that you are attractive to other women is that *you choose to be with your wife.*

    2) Alpha attitude
    Dear Lord. Jesus was the biggest Alpha male there was. He goes to the house of two women and one cooks him dinner and the other kneels at his feet and listens to him speak for hours. When was the last time your wife knelt at your feet to listen to you speak? When was the last time your wife washed your feet and anointed them with scented oil? Jesus had total strangers doing this to him *all the time.* Aggressive? “I come not to bring peace, but a sword.” Rulebreaking? He turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple and beat them with sticks. Cocky? “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world”

    Women don’t love assholes. Women love strong men who can lead them. Assholes lead them astray. This is one of the areas where modern Churchianity has strayed most obviously from Christ and his disciples’ teachings, as First Peter 3 starts: “Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands”; the first letter of Paul to Timothy, chapter 2 verses 11–12, on the subject of women and spiritual teaching: “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.”

    Over and over the teachings of Jesus and his disciples is that the proper role for a man is Godly leadership and dominance, and the proper role for the woman is submission.

    3) Indifference
    Indifference to your wife’s emotional state is not the opposite to love. Your emotions come from your flesh, from the meaty instincts of your mind and body, and can be influenced by drugs, hormones, and temporary circumstances. Part of being human, and most of being a Christian, is being able to override your emotions with your rational mind and spirit. Love between two humans is a bond between their spirits and rational minds, and transcends whichever particular emotions are raging back and forth in the meaty sacks we have to wear to walk around in this world.

    Lets take a concrete example: Your wife is pregnant. It is a dark and stormy night. Thunder flashes, lightning strikes. Your wife goes into labour. You are rushing her to the hospital in the car when it breaks down on a remote road. Your wife starts freaking out that she’s going to have to deliver the baby in the car, and she verbally lashes out at you for being lax in your car maintenance. You’ve been standing outside in the rain peering under the bonnet with a torch doing diagnostics and suddenly there’s a screaming harpy in your face, ruining your concentration. The unchristian and unloving thing would be to take her insults personally and strike back at her. The Christian and loving thing to do is to understand that the screaming harpy is not your wife, and her words do not reflect how she really feels about you. As her Christian husband you must be her rock that she can rely upon to remain steadfast and look after her, no matter how her emotions rage and roar. You do not raise your voice. You look her in the eye. You summon that spark within yourself — within every man — that has led men into battle and faced down packs of ravenous wolves with only a sharp stone on the end of a stick: “Get back in the car.” She gets back into the car, you fix it, get her to this hospital. For the rest of her life she will remember her big strong husband, her rock, who wasn’t swayed by her emotions or the horrible things she said to him, but took control and made things alright.

    4) Willingness to walk away
    This is an easy one. Yes, the wedding vows are ‘to death do us part,’ but marriage is also a contract, and you are entitled to act if she breaches her half. The Bible never talks about the guy walking out on the marriage, because in the customs of the time the man was the head of the household. If he wanted out he sent the wife away. If she had not done anything justifying divorce they would remain married, they would just not live together. If you have children and your wife beats them with iron rods, or locks them in a coal bunker with a dirty mattress and not enough food, it is your right and your duty as the man of the house to be prepared to — as a final resort — send her away and remove that malign influence from your childrens’ lives.

    Even if you don’t have children, there comes a point where you have to say ‘enough’: when your wife is compromising your own walk with God, with your ability to be a witness to your friends and family. Sometimes when a man walks away that shocks the wife enough to make the changes needed. Does this mean that what she needed was the man to walk away?

    5) Hot kinky sex
    Really, there are no problems here. The only things the Bible proscribes are adultery and male homosexuality. That’s literally it.

    Have fun!

  13. Oh, and another thing. The reader may be interested in the blog Alpha Game which is moderated and predominantly written by a Christian called Vox Day (not his real name).

  14. Over It says:

    From my understanding, oral and anal sex AREN’T disallowed in Christian teaching…it’s just that you aren’t supposed to EJACULATE (“plant the seed”) anywhere but her vagina. So there’s no reason why you can’t use oral/anal as pre-cursors to the good old P+V proper sex.

    Overall (and I say this as a Christian myself), I don’t think that using game to improve your marriage goes against Christianity at all. You can flirt without lusting; you can be slightly more of a individual (that’s the real thing in the “aloofness” that’s attractive–you have your own life and your own interests outside of her); you can be the alpha who makes family decisions without being the alpha jerk who likes to pump and dump.

    The point is, make the game work for you. Having a strong Christian belief is an asset to game because you know that while you can get awesome and attract other women, your convictions will help you stay faithful to your wife even in the face of overwhelming temptation. It’s an asset–use it!

  15. I have struggled with these questions about MMSL and Christian marriage too, but in the end I am trying to apply the “girl game” stuff to my own marriage. I also recommended the book and blog to my husband and older son (age 23) – with a caveat to my son that he should take some of it “with a grain of salt” because it doesn’t match up with Biblical advice on marriage. I think that Christians can apply 80% or so of the advice without guilt, and probably end up with very good results.

    In response to the comment about indifference, I find it hard to believe that most wives (Christian or not) want to be treated with indifference by their husbands. If they do, then I am in the minority. I think Suz is right, though, that they may want their “stuff” to be treated with indifference. I don’t tend to fitness test my husband or engage in big emotional outbursts, but I do tend to worry excessively about things that I either cannot change or should not worry about at all. If he got all involved with and emotional about my excessive worrying, that would not be attractive and wouldn’t accomplish anything. So I am okay with him treating that stuff with some indifference (while also doing the male thing of figuring out how to solve the things that are real problems!)

    Regarding concerns about the kinds of activities Christian couples can enjoy in the bedroom, the Web site Christian Nymphos has been very helpful for me. The authors are not currently posting new articles, but all of the past articles are archived and available on the site. These ladies pushed the boundaries of what might be considered “typical” for Christian couples, and really helped me in my thinking about and comfort with some things. The book “Sheet Music” is also good for Christians. It’s not as “edgy” as Christian Nymphos, but presents a very positive view of sex in marriage. For a marriage in which the wife is having trouble overcoming negative teaching about sex that she received about sex while growing up, “Sheet Music” may be a good place to start.

  16. Flipper says:

    Preselection happens when any women pay you attention. Not just potential threats. At least that is my understanding of it. It may be amplified when a potential threat does it.

  17. “For Christian men, I highly recommend the book “Wild at Heart” by John Eldredge. ”

    As long as they have taken the red pill… without that knowledge, it’s easy to take a lot of the advice in Wild at Heart and double-down on blue pill thinking (I know, because I did it with less than desirable results years ago).

    Another book I would recommend is “No More Christian Nice Guy” – not sure if the author was familiar with the manosphere per se, but a lot of his concepts are echoed here and other similar blogs.

  18. Flipper says:

    Point 4 is just nice guy hangover. Doesn’t the bible say a wife is to submit her body to her husband and he should also submit to her?

  19. Modern Christianity is highly feminized to a disgusting point. There is a reason that more women than men attend church on a regular basis. And yes, there has been a lot of bad things said about sex by Christians over the years with little regard for Biblical relations. Hell, most Christians believe that not having a State supported piece of paper means you are fornicating. So while the perception may be that Game is incompatible with Christianity, I think that it is merely incompatible with feminism.

    While I think Athol is on the right track here, I know that Vox Day has written some interesting points on Game and Christianity as well. Basically he states that it really is no different from “regular” Game. Your principles may be a bit different, but since this blog is devoted to married men and Game, that shouldn’t be a huge hurtle since all sex is fine in marriage under pretty much all denominations so long as it is with your spouse.

  20. AnonJohn says:

    doesnt dalrock have the market on this cornered already?

  21. “Are you indifferent to your wife, or to her shit tests, the inconsequential BS she frets and obsesses about? ”

    I struggle with this a ton. I can’t find a way to be indifferent to her “stuff” without being indifferent to her. It isn’t something I’ve managed to separate, because to be indifferent to her moods/feelings, I have to be indifferent to how she feels, which generally just makes me indifferent entirely. And like the original reader, I too find that I do not feel as “in love” with my SO when I am intentionally being indifferent. Surely I still care about her, and would be upset if she were gone, but the actual “in the moment” feeling is just not as strong. It ‘feels’ more like fondness than love, and although I’m certainly fond of the people I love, I want/need a deeper connection of some sort. So far, anytime I fully re-engage that deep connection has still been there and strong, but I am concerned that over time keeping that distance between us is going to erode our connection, and I’ll end up living with someone I am simply fond of. I lived with my ex-wife for several years in that state, and truthfully sometimes I get that same perception with my current SO. To remain unaffected by her “stuff” I have to treat her like a roommate.

  22. Dalrock does NOT have the market on this covered. His site doesn’t offer the kind of positive, practical advice for improving your marriage that Athol offers. To me the two sites have totally different purposes and goals, and this site is the one that has really helped me.

  23. Pretty simple!

    Step 1:)
    Read Athol stuff. Everything you can.

    Step 2:)
    Head over to Dalrock’s blog and find out that none of it contradicts Christian belief.

    Have fun.

  24. Adding to my answer, if Athol allows the linkage… read everything post that pops up in the link below:
    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/category/game/

  25. Habakkuk says:

    I think the reader (OP) is confusing Christian culture with Christianity. The only thing in Athol’s book that goes against Christianity is the Porn watching. Nothing else does. The man is to be Christ unto the wife. This implies dying for her, but also ruling her. He is to be the rock and foundation that she rests on. Game doesn’t conflict with what the Bible teaches at all. Some things need to be tweaked a tad, but nothing of significance.

    And leaving the wife if she offers no sex? Jewish rabbi’s interpreted the Torah when it talks about marriage and said that if a man doesn’t offer his concubine food, shelter, and sex then she has a right to leave him. This, in a society that didn’t allow divorce. If this is true for the concubine, so the Rabbis said, then how much more true for the wife. It is not a stretch to (in our modern society where women can, and will, divorce at will) to say, if she denies me food (man should be making the money), shelter (man should provide), or sex (women to provide) then he is permitted to leave her. The issue is that Christians suffer badly from Oneitis. It is ingrained in us. Let it go. Call her on her shit, call her to the things that God commands her to do, and @#$% the hell outta her ;)

  26. Ted,
    Thanks for elaborating on the “indifference” issue; you gave me a Light Bulb moment. One of the reasons Game is effective is that you eventually become what you practice. I guess there’s a real danger of internalizing aloofness deeply.

    Makes me wonder if it’s feasible for a man to say very frankly to his wife,”I don’t care about BS; when you present me with too much BS, BS is all I see when I look at you.” Might that not give the wife a little push to take responsibility for how she behaves toward her husband? Of course that does bring #4 into play, but #4 is something she needs to understand as well.

  27. PastorofMuppets says:

    I think “indifferent” to her emotions probably is a poor word choice. Be indifferent to your wife’s emotions when a family member is diagnosed with cancer, a close friend goes through a divorce or she loses her job, and you won’t find your wife getting all hot and bothered.
    A better way to state it is to be stable and in control in the face of her emotions. This goes for matters both important and trivial. I a family member dies, be her rock, her shoulder to cry on. Just don’t become a blubbering mess with her. If you think she’s being overly emotional over something silly, don’t ignore her, just don’t respond with overwrought emotions (anger, frustration, contempt) of your own.

    In my experience I’ve found that the female co-workers who tend to be the most flirty with me are the same ones who comment how calm I am with the crap hits the fan. It’s not that I’m indifferent to those moments of crisis. I’m anything but that. But I’ve taught myself to stay calm and relaxed in those situations. One should deal with his wife’s emotions in the same way – act like it matters, but don’t get swept up in the moment.

  28. anonymous2 says:

    I find it more helpful to change that word about being “indifferent” to the word “calm”. It is actually helpful to see a man respond with calmness when I am spiraling into nervousness,fretfulness or worry. This might include situations that are not very important or ones that are very,very important but I am having a difficult time dealing with them. I have actually used calmness in tone and posture with my children. Following that, I might ask a few questions,become a listening ear but not comment much,make a final brief comment and then get them diverted to work,another activity that is relaxing or even a little rest. As an adult I can clearly see that some of their behavior is over the top for the situation but the response from me needs to be slow and calm. Serious matters can also be dealt with better when they are calmer,too.
    Husbands do not have to feel the same way about what is behind a wife’s behavior but he can use his strength to remain calm and safe and then draw the line if need be as to where he stands in whatever is going on.
    Be careful about calling all difficulties coming from your wife a shit test. Remember that men can do these behaviors too , especially when being too self-centered or frustrated and unable to deal with something.

  29. Christians should only use Game ONCE, then retire it during the lifetime vow to their spouse.

  30. anonymous2 says:

    Maybe it is self-selecting that a number of Christians coming to this site make the claim that Christians are uptight,confused and puritanical about sex in marriage. Re. the Puritans ,Victorians and others that are often slammed for passing on unhappiness to couples this seems to be unwarranted if you read to any extent their letters and observe their marriages. It is equally probable that behavior in marriage ,esp. adultery or refusing to have sex with your spouse (forbidden in the Bible) is destructive in Christian marriages and outside Christian marriages. Agnostics and atheists do not have a corner on vital,thriving marriages and its concurrent sex life or none of them would be here either.
    The statistics regarding sexual satisfaction and lower divorce rates have been consistent. Evangelicals at least,report a high sexual satisfaction percentage and a lower than average divorce rate. The oft quoted statistic that Christians have as high a divorce rate as nonChristians is way out of date. It does not take into account differing teaching among various denominations, individual churches and even families. Personally, I was never taught in my church or my denomination to feel that sex or various sexual acts in marriage were wrong or dirty and that was a very “conservative” church. The vast majority of my friends are in happy and longterm marriages. It is starkly evident to me that those who had sexual problems were reared in a different denomination than ours or had severe family problems that led to a distortion of view of such things. There are now quite a few Christian books out that try to help with questions that have come up as noted here, but not everyone who is a Christian needs them or reads them or goes online to get advice. They are too busy frolicking with their Christian spouse. One last thing to Christian Dudes: maybe what you think is reluctant,uptight wife is a wife that needs a spouse she is intensely attracted to and here is where Athol’s advice comes in.

  31. Churchianity twists that verse where it says that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, laying down His life for it (Ephesians chapter 5, I think). They extrapolate that, hey, if Jesus was willing to die for the church then that means men should do absolutely anything, up to death itself, to keep their wives happy. But that’s not correct at all. If you look at how Jesus treated the church—other than dying for it, because that’s not really useful as a day-to-day example of married life—you get a considerably different picture. The apostles became the core of the early church and if you look at how Jesus treated them you get a clearer view of how the church was loved. Jesus spent a lot of time guiding the apostles, teaching them, calling them on their faults, telling them what to do, and living His own life’s purpose of bringing hope and life to others. Jesus also protected, cared for, and provided for them as well, of course. But it’s hard to imagine the apostles coming to Jesus and calling the shots, with Jesus responding, “Yes, dear(s)! Whatever I can do to make you happy!” Somehow that’s become the modern version of a husband loving his wife. It ain’t the way it ought to be.

    When it comes to attracting other women, I’d slightly reword that to say that you become attractvie to other women. I get flirted with all the time when I go out. I don’t do anything in particular to encourage them, but I am naturally confident, happy, and outgoing. If that attracts women on a fairly regular basis, well, so be it. I don’t flirt back, but I can be playful and friendly. So I recognise the attention and kind of tease them in the sense that I respond in a casual sort of way, without showing any desire for them.

    Women love displays of testosterone-producing behaviours. Testosterone is increased by leading, winning competitions, physical activity (especially weight-bearing stuff), and talking to women. Therefore, those activities are viewed as alpha and manly. The Bible says that we should adopt an attitude of helping others and not being arrogant. You can do those things with that attitude. It’s all a balance.

    Women know, deep down, that their emotions rule them. So they like men who are not only on top of their own emotions, but also can show a resistance to the effects of women’s emotions, because it indicates that they are able to be stable in this area. Women are not attracted to men who can be easily emotionally-manipulated, because it shows that they are unable to lead the woman through her emotional rollercoaster. It’s not so much that you are indifferent to what the woman feels, it’s more that you are able to be rational in the face of their tidal wave of emotions, just like a general keeping his cool in battle. You need to be able to see through the emotions and give the woman what she needs most. Caring is great, but being manipulated by her every word is not. You show caring by leading, not by being led.

    The willingness to walk away is actually a DLV in a Christian household. After all, if you are the spiritual head of the house, this is a lousy example of Christian strength. It shows that you’ll give up, which is never an alpha trait. I think the major problem here is simply that our modern society sucks for Christian guys. We have very few good options when it comes to what to do when our wives are lousy towards us. So it’s not that the Bible is wrong in saying we shouldn’t just up and leave, it’s that society has gotten so far from biblical principles that we are completely emasculated in the face of stubborn women. A few thousand years ago, if the wife was a pain in the butt the man had much, much more authority to have her get her act together. For one thing, he could just up and marry a second wife. Monogamy is a relatively recent development and even in the New Testament it was only a clear directive for elders in the church, rather than everyone. So, if your wife wouldn’t put out anymore, get another one. You had to keep the old one, but you could get all the sex you needed from the new one, so long as you could afford to keep two wives. Plenty of the Old Testament guys had multiple wives. It was the norm for men who had the means to support them. Your first wife would know this and so if she didn’t want to be replaced in the bedroom, she’d keep her husband interested. Also, procreation was a much higher priority back then and women who birthed sons were highly-regarded. So for her own sense of importance, she’d be willing to jump her husband as often as she could get pregnant.

    These days, if our wives don’t give us sex, or if they have horrible attitudes, what recourse do men have? None. You go to your pastor and he’ll probably say you’re not being enough of a leader (fortunately, my pastors are nothing like this—yay! Two of them have actually read MMSL and agree with much of it). You go to the State and they’ll take everything you have and give it to her. So, it’s not that the Bible is at fault here, it’s that our modern society robs us of decent options, so that we are left with two options that suck either way: do the unChristian thing and leave; or put up with her crap. Neither are good, but there is simply not much you can do about it these days.

    As for hot, kinky sex, I suppose it depend on what you call kinky. In my opinion, unless your sex includes other people, or desire for other people, then you are free to do whatever you like, short of hurting each other. I think that a lot of out-there stuff comes from places of hurt in people, though.

  32. Attractive, not attractvie. Stupid typo.

  33. I will ditto John Eldredge’s book. Another fantastic book is “Way of the Superior Man,” by David Deida. If you will forgive the posturing title, it should be reference material for any man who wants to maintain his masculine composure while dealing with the feminine. It takes a very spiritual view without being Christian-centric. Deida doesn’t portray the masculine and feminine as opposing forces that must do battle but as different forces that should find their complement in the other.

    Deida’s book will help in understanding the “indifference” problem that Ted hit on. Pastorof Muppets has essentially condensed the proper response. Sympathize with her on the truly important stuff. Don’t get wrapped up in her more frequent and less important emotional roller coaster rides. That is who she (the feminine) is. It should not be who you (the masculine) are. I think it was Roissy who said that the you (the man) should be the rock that her emotional waves crash upon.

    Lastly, please be sure that the OP is clear in what the biblical teachings are and what the church teachings are. Eldredge touches on this. The church has taken great steps in feminizing men, and it has done so without a firm biblical basis for this. Even Christ was known to kick a few tables over when the situation called for it.

  34. I say this as a Christian for most of my adult life, a bible college graduate and a firm, if sometimes uncomfortable, red pill faithful.

    (1) Attracting other Women : The Bible says that if a man lusts after a woman, he’s already committed adultery with her. It in no way says not to be attractive to anyone because, frankly, short of a burka, its impossible to not be attractive to everybody. My goal is to be attractive to every woman I meet from puberty to the grave. I have no intention of using that attraction for most of them but it seems to help when all the ladies in the church kind of sigh when you’re around. The fact that you attract these other women but stay true to your wife will add to the attraction of all involved.

    (2) Alpha attitude (at least parts of it)
    “Cocky, willingness to break the rules, being overtly sexual, indifference to female emotion. Or how about a personal favorite that my wife and I like to laugh about and you have blogged about “women love assholes”.
    I think these pretty much speak for themselves as to why they go against Christian beliefs.”

    Have you read the Gospels? Who has been more willing to break rules than Jesus? Seriously? He took on the religious leaders, political leaders and occupying powers ALL THE TIME. Did he break God’s rules? No. Break the social constructs, do what is right even when its uncomfortable; that is breaking the rules. Personally, I do cocky/funny all the time. Just cocky is a bit problematic. Cocky/funny…I have no issues with. I am always astounded by the fact that I can say something both she and I know isn’t true but she giggles and laps it up anyway.

    Being overtly sexual….With your wife there should be no trouble with this at all, Biblically at least. With other women, or women you are dating before marriage, I think the key is to express that you are a sexual being without talking about what you want to do to them or grabbing a handful of T or A. Honestly, something as simple as complimenting a woman on her jeans/shorts/etc can do this. “Those jeans are a good look for you.” “That blouse really suits/fits you.” These may not even be the best examples but they demonstrate that you can say, “I have a penis and (would) like to use it.” without being blatant or offensive.

    I agree with the others above. Indifference to her mood swings, fitness tests, etc is the way to go. If you are indifferent to her genuine problems, you’re a bad husband and a bad Christian. This is where Athol’s Alpha/Beta spectrum concept applies well. Being concerned about her when the storms of life come may be a little Beta, but remaining aloof to her mood swings is certainly Alpha.

    (3) Indifference to emotion: See above.

    (4) Willingness to walk away: I’ll admit, I wonder about this one too. I tend to lean towards the idea that there are expectations and consequences for those expectations not being met is a good way to handle it. She might know you are bound to her for life, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t positive things you can take away from her if she’s not fulfilling her obligations. (Read Athol’s chapter on behavior modification.) There’s also the fact that if she sees you attracting other women (See Part 1) then it will probably always be in the back of her mind that you could, if she pushed hard enough, replace her. You may have no intention of ever doing so but just the threat in her own mind (not explicitly spoken by you) should do the trick…mostly.

    (5) Hot Kinky Sex: Anyone who’s read the Song of Solomon in a good translation knows that this is not a problem. The whole “spilling the seed” thing about oral etc is taken out of context from ONE VERSE…in a book of 1000′s of verses. In context, the sin wasn’t the man not ejaculating in the wife, it was that he didn’t love/respect his brother(s) enough to do what was right and take on the burden that entailed.

    Hope I added to the discussion.

    DD

  35. JCclimber says:

    Fairly simple:
    1) Once you internalize game, you won’t need to take any action toward women, for them to be attracted to you enough for your wife to notice.
    2) Attitude: Moses (not Charlton Heston) was extolled by God as the most humble of men, yet he led 100′s of thousands of unruly stubborn people for 40 years. He also faced down a Pharoah with nothing but his brother and his shepherd’s staff (and God). Be Moses. Be confident. Be adventurous.
    3) Reasonable indifference to her emotions, not complete indifference. IF you are grounded in the rock of salvation, the storms of her emotions won’t move you, yet you can still have emotions and show them. They just won’t control you, at all. Jesus was not swayed from His path by the emotions of others.
    4) You’re not walking away. The problem is, as a Christian… GOD is supposed to be your first love. Most “christian” marriages have made their wife number one in their pantheon of gods. Once your wife realizes that God is number one, and that her behaviors, feelings and actions won’t interfere with THAT relationship, then things are in better perspective for her. It is a very attractive feature.
    5) Please show me in the BIBLE where God forbids hot sex with your wife? Onan was killed not for spilling his seed, but for the fact that he was deliberately doing harm to Tamar.

  36. Anonymous says:

    Disclaimer: This sounds rather Calvinist and deftly avoids answering anything directly.

    Did God create you in his likeness? Has He ordained to greatness? Are you assured of your faith?

    Then believe it. Act like it. Exude being favored by God.

    I can’t think how much more Alpha one could be in attitude than having the honest belief God Himself has chosen them to honor.

  37. Much of what has been said here is good. Christianity has been overly sentimentalized.

    1) Men should not want to tempt other women. That said, sometimes this may happen as a man acts like a man should. Temptation will happen. Sinful impulses and sin will occur. Strength inspires women – and not always in the way it should (i.e. lust goes with this).
    2) Confidence – which sometimes might only look like sinful swagger – is another thing that inspires women (see concerns above). And men should be “overtly sexual” – if this means desiring to pull one’s wife’s attraction and also assuming that there will be regular times where the husband aims to woo/pursue/ravish his bride (this is like the Christian message really – see this post inspired by things I’ve learned from places like this: http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/a-husband-and-father-like-no-other/
    3) Men should be strong, driven, and have clear goals that they won’t be sidetracked from. They also should be level-headed. This is not indifference to female emotion, but reacting appropriately for the situation. Sometimes what one person feels needs to be put into a larger perspective.
    4) I can’t justify men divorcing women because they are not intimate as much as the men would like. That said, this may indeed be a serious problem that needs to be addressed (see the beginning of I Cor. 7 and read slowly…). Adultery is another matter.
    5) I think much of this depends on people’s individual consciences before God (see Romans 14 and 15). Just because something is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible does not mean a person should feel like they must do it if another wants it (we must be concerned for the “weaker brother” – one who’s faith is not as strong). At the same time, they also should refrain from saying “Christians absolutely can’t do that or they are not really Christians” though.

  38. anonymouse says:

    I strongly agree with the distinction between Churchianity, and Christianity. They are two fully separate things, and I would contend that most American Christians practice Churchianity more than anything else.

    That Churchianity and puritanical type of teachings about sex hurt me for a long time too. At one point I decided to step outside of that (of my own accord, before hubby even found MMSL), and decided I liked hot sex a whole lot better than lame sex. ;)

    As for the divorce issue…. from a Christian perspective that is definitely a difficult one. I agree that sometimes it needs to be used. One thing my husband has done that I think has worked well, (infuriating but it does get the point across), is to say “I am going this direction. You can either choose to come with me, or you can leave.” It places the choice of leaving the situation onto the woman. The man is the head of the household and is going to go the direction that he feels is best for the family, and if the woman doesn’t like it, she doesn’t have to participate, but she also doesn’t get to stay within the protection of the family unit. It’s a hard pill to swallow, and most women, I think, when faced with that choice, are more likely to choose to stay with the family, rather than venture out on their own.

  39. anonymouse says:

    JCclimber, Onan’s sin was that he wasn’t being obedient. He wasn’t hurting Tamar as much as he was sleeping with her but refusing to impregnate her. He was deceptive and dishonest, and disobedient.

  40. I really enjoy your blog even though I’m not in a relationship or married. Why is Christianity even on the table? Your blog seems very secular to me (only been reading for about a month). I would suggest doing a separate blog (if you’re interested) for Christians. That way, us non-religious types don’t have to hear about it and everyone is happy (well, at least until the Muslims and Jews hear about it and insist on their own religious blog from you). #slipperyslope

    Keep up the great work!

  41. Haven’t read all the comments but wanted to say that, as a Catholic convert, I don’t find a significant amount of your advice is in conflict with Christianity. Anything that is should be obvious really, but I understand that’s not always the case. I think it is best for Christians to realise that there are few scripturally based legitimate prohibitions on what a husband and wife can do.

    As far as I can tell, a lot of the problem comes from erroneous teaching within churches, not from the Bible itself. Best to discern as a couple what is moral and what isn’t. Many things passed off as immoral are simply those things that the passer offer finds distasteful, which doesn’t necessarily indicate immorality (although obviously sometime it can, which is why discernment from a well-formed conscience is needed more than a bunch of rigid rules that end up being a hindrance to the intimacy that is reserved for marriage).

    @ Firepower

    Christians should only use Game ONCE, then retire it during the lifetime vow to their spouse.

    I respectfully disagree with this, because it sounds too much like “alpha up, then go full on beta”, and we all know how well that works. That may not be what you meant, but there are certainly aspects of game that can be used throughout a marriage (particularly with something like upping the dominance during the ovulation period) to keep it running well.

  42. I haven’t commented before, but as a member of a VERY conservative Christian denomination, I think I can offer some insight to this reader’s questions. I’ve definitely recommended Athol to other Christians before, as well!

    1) You’re on the short track to wearing a burka for the rest of your life with this one. It’s not LOOKING at another woman – it’s LUSTING after her. Big difference. Police your own thoughts, and as long as what you’re doing is clearly on the “friendly and engaging” side of conversation, and not the “let’s hook up later” side, you are allowed to speak to members of the opposite sex without wearing a bag over your head. Don’t try to overthink things – that’s your wife’s hamster’s job, to take what is objectively only a friendly interaction and spin it into a “threat”. If you treat all women with the same pleasant demeanor, as you say you do, it’s not on you if one of the young, attractive ones starts showing interest – just don’t up the ante when she does, and use that “indifference” to act oblivious to her flirting with you. Don’t insulate yourself from members of the opposite sex out of fear – for one thing, it’s hard to witness your faith to somebody if you’re refusing to speak to her in anything other than monotonous clipped phrases and running away the first chance you get! ;)

    2) “Cocky, willingness to break the rules, being overtly sexual, indifference to female emotion.” The only potential issue with this one is WHICH rules are you willing to break? There are a lot of “social” rules that can be broken with moral impunity. The other side of alpha is leadership – aka, enforcing your rules. Make Biblical rules part of the set you enforce, and silly social rules the ones you’re willing to flout. Spiritual leadership is very alpha.

    3) Indifference to emotion. This should be “indifference to emotional storms over minor details,” not total indifference. Your wife needs an anchor, an objective, logical perspective on things to counterbalance female hormone-driven emotional hurricanes. You can’t be her rock if you’re caught up in her storm. Grieve with her when it’s time for grieving, and rejoice with her when it’s time to rejoice – and give her a gentle push towards reason when she goes off about something that’s really not the end of the world. Apply your best judgement to the situations as they arise.

    4) This is the big one for committed Christians – no walking away allowed! What you can do is tell her very clearly what will happen to your romantic love and attraction to her if she persists in treating you a certain way, etc. For further reading, see C.S. Lewis’s “The Four Loves” – unconditional love, which is what you swear to have in marriage, is different from the romantic or erotic feelings of love, which no one can swear to have at all times forever, because it’s impossible. For one thing, unconditional love isn’t an emotion at all; it’s a decision of the will to always seek the best for the object of your love. “Tough love” is one application of this. And if she’s not holding up her end of the marriage covenant – I Corinthians 7 – and won’t listen to you , take her before the session of your church for discipline. I’m totally serious about this. If you don’t go to a church that disciplines its members when necessary, find one that does, and join it. Your marriage was (presumably) witnessed by your church, and it’s the church leaders who have the responsibility to discipline anyone who willfully flouts that covenant. If I ever behaved badly in my marriage and didn’t listen to my husband when he tried to correct me, I fully expect that my pastor and my elders would come down on me like a ton of (loving but immovable) bricks. And that’s the way it should be.

    Christianity does not require absolute self-negation for the sake of another human being. Christianity requires absolute self-negation for Christ, and for Him alone. The blue pill “total devotion” is obviously not the kind of love that women need from men, no matter what anyone tells you – so it’s up to you as a husband to learn the truth about expressing love to your wife. God is the author of all truth, even the truth of Game, so don’t be ashamed to learn it, and as far as the commandments allow, to put what you learn into practice. Game respects the God-created differences between men and women, and gives men the tools they need to be the leaders that God calls them to be!

    5) I’m so sorry to hear that your wife got caught by lies about sexuality. The church is not infallible, and some do a lot of damage on this issue. There are resources available for Christians seeking wonderful sex lives with their spouses, though! Two of the books my husband and I were required to read as part of our pre-marital counseling for our church were “Intended for Pleasure” by Ed and Gaye Wheat, and “The Act of Marriage” by Tim and Beverly LaHaye. I have to say, that although I know Roman Catholics do have restrictions on male orgasm, the aforementioned very conservative Reformed churches I was raised in don’t have any. Zip. Zilch. Nada. If you’re married, and both comfortable with it… no restrictions. Once again, presuming good judgement is used – I don’t think any “kinky stuff” that results in actual injury is going to be “allowed” – because it’s not loving to intentionally do harm to your spouse. Even if he or she asks for it and you’re comfortable doing it. We don’t think teenagers cutting themselves is a healthy behavior; why would intentional infliction of damage during sex be okay? (This is when finding a good therapist is a really great idea.)

    So there’s one Christian perspective on Game for you. I’m sure there will be a lot more in the other comments! :)

  43. Christian here and I have no issues with Athol’s stuff. Well, the use a little porn is an issue for me but it doesn’t detract from the message Athol is trying to say.

    I think as some other folks have said, Christianity seem to encourage men too nice to their wives and some women don’t respond to hopelessly devoted men. I am not going to debate Christianity and Churchianity and all that jazz.

    1] Attracting women. I want to get to the point where other women see me as a great catch. More glances etc. I am not going to cheat on her but I dont see why a woman being overtly interested in me is goign against my values.

    2}Alpha attitudes- no issues there. the mix of Alpha and Beta evens out. I might be a jerk to my wife in some ways and yet be loving to her in other, It evens out.

    3] Indifference to emotion: that is simply not letting her emotionally manipulate you. All legit emotions need to be addressed to understood.

    4} Willingness to walk away is tough but I do agree that a life where my wife doesn’t make any attempt to put out or try to rectify the situation is not a great marriage. I might not walk away but I will make sure that she knows that any separation is because I tried my best.

    5] Kinky sex? What is the problem here? I married her and hot wax and nipple clamps work to the glory of the Lord. Her orgasm is praise as far as I am concerned. I am very serious here.

  44. “But I’ve taught myself to stay calm and relaxed in those situations. One should deal with his wife’s emotions in the same way – act like it matters, but don’t get swept up in the moment.”

    OK. So “indifference” in this context is not “not caring” about my mates emotions, but not being effected by them? That makes sense, but without not caring about them I guess I don’t know how to NOT be effected.

    I get the idea, and in fact I work very well in this mode in an emergency situation. Shut down all emotional responses, concentrate on what needs to be done, deal with my emotional turmoil later. The issue with my SO is that there is no emergency, and the actual issue IS her emotional state. Further, shutting down my emotions for these cases works brilliantly, but it leads to a general feeling of not caring as much. And to an extent it makes me feel like a jerk for being so aloof to something she is obviously in turmoil over. I’m not talking about a death in the family or something similar. I have no issue being her “rock” for those. But, when she is angry or frustrated with me (or I am the object of her frustration at something else) it is damn difficult for me to remain calm and “in control” unless I really don’t care that she is angry at all. And if I don’t care if she is angry, then I’m heading down the path to not caring what she feels at all. I mean, I don’t have problems with people at work being angry with me, but that is because I really don’t care about them at all. I dislike it when my children are angry at me, but it is my job to set boundaries and enforce them. And to be honest, I do have to keep a bit of “distance” between myself and my kids in order to be able to perform those duties. I’ve truly had to “lay down the law” with one of my children and then go to my room and cry because it hurts me deeply to make them feel bad. My oldest just turned 18 and is graduating from HS next week. I can’t tell you how relieved I am that my “duty” to her is done and now I can simply enjoy her for who she is without needing to keep that distance between us so I can be her father. I want to be her friend, but I always stayed just short of that, because once I become her friend I am no longer her authority figure. That is the problem for me in this with my mate: I want to be her friend, but I don’t know how to do that AND be her “leader”.

  45. I always have a good chuckle when people ask about game for christians and how Athol’s specific brand applies. If people that called themselves christians took the time to read the gospels and what they actually say about marriage. Sometimes I have a sneaking suspicion Athols actually a christian but he just says he’s not to gain a wider readership, I say this because 90% of what he says is backed up biblically. See what the apostle Paul has to say about marriage and the husband being the head of his wife, and how sex should not be withheld from either the husband or the wife except in situations of fasting. Also some people tend to skip over the Old Testement book Song of Songs or Song of Soloman, that describes a Godly relationship that DOESN’T abstain from sex. All these reasons are why christians are supposed to read and study the Bible on their own, so that the church leadership is held accountable for what and how they preach.

    Cheers!
    And thanks to Athol for spreading such great knowledge.

  46. Mark – “Women know, deep down, that their emotions rule them. So they like men who are not only on top of their own emotions, but also can show a resistance to the effects of women’s emotions, because it indicates that they are able to be stable in this area. Women are not attracted to men who can be easily emotionally-manipulated, because it shows that they are unable to lead the woman through her emotional rollercoaster. It’s not so much that you are indifferent to what the woman feels, it’s more that you are able to be rational in the face of their tidal wave of emotions, just like a general keeping his cool in battle. You need to be able to see through the emotions and give the woman what she needs most. Caring is great, but being manipulated by her every word is not. You show caring by leading, not by being led.”

    Wow. I need to think on this a bit, because it makes perfect sense to me. I think my hang up here is that I can function perfectly in this capacity, but it is a ‘mode’ of thinking I have to put myself in, not the way I naturally operate. By this I mean, I can be very good at focusing on the goal (as a general keeping his cool during battle) but not if I’m the one being attacked. When she is upset at external stuff, I have no problem being her “rock” and helping her through it. But, when I am the focus/cause of her emotional state, I find myself caught between wanting to be logical, and getting pulled into the emotional current. Or put another way, when she is raising her voice AT me, it is damn hard to keep my cool. (And I’m in NO WAY implying we fight a lot. In fact, we mostly suck at it because we don’t do it much) In those cases, the only way I can remain calm is to not care that she is angry, which of course makes her angrier. If I respond in a similar manner, of course things escalate and get worse as well, so I feel like it is a no win situation.

  47. I too try to make people understand the difference between Christianity and Churchianity. It hurts to see how many people are misunderstanding the concept of Christianity and believe that Christianity is all Beta, no sex except for impregnating etc. I also think that the whole body chemistry is designed by God, so how could MMSL be against Christianity? It just provides a clearer understanding of our bodies and how they work.
    I find MMSL very helpful, even as a wife. Hubby doesn’t really agree yet, but a lot of things simply work. As a woman you can also “make” your husband more Alpha, simply by allowing him to be Alpha and giving him opportunities to show it. I think every man tends to be Alpha by default, deep deep within. Maybe we just scared them too much to act Alpha…

  48. Just wanted to say that my Christian uniform looks a lot like a TOS dress (if only I looked as good in it as Uhura…).

  49. YAWN
    …In other news, a Christian leader in North Carolina would like to put gays in fenced concentration camps so they can stop breading and the Vatican is caught up in yet another corruption scandal.

    Athol give me a break! Me thinks you’re getting a shit test and failing.

  50. Firepower says:
    Christians should only use Game ONCE, then retire it during the lifetime vow to their spouse.

    Sounds nice, but it won’t work. All Beta and no Alpha makes hubby a dull boy in the eyes of his wife, and sets the stage for her to eventually give the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” speech. Even in a committed Christian marriage, it’s your responsibility to keep the tingles going.

    I don’t see how Game, as Athol presents it, is in any conflict with Christian ideals of marriage. Athol says “be the Captain.” The Bible says the husband is the head of the wife. Athol says take her to pound town on a regular basis; the Bible says to rejoice in the wife of your youth. Athol says frequent sex keeps a marriage healthy; the Bible says do not deny yourselves to each other. Flirting isn’t adultery; letting your wife see that you are valuable isn’t a sin.

  51. FeralFelis says:

    @ John Durant-
    :O
    Oh man, THIS is my problem!!!
    *I’ve* done everything on your list!
    The leather jacket was made from the skin of an elk I killed. (My boots were made from the warthog I took in Africa).

  52. FeralFelis says:

    @ Ted:
    I just want to say you have some of the most personally insightful comments made on this blog. I really appreciate the self-awareness you have and the way you communicate.

  53. FeralFelis says:

    @ Mark and everyone else:
    Isn’t it true that back in days of yore, most people only lived into their 30′s or 40′s?
    And most women lost all their teeth from the pregnancies they had every year or two? What is the sex rank of a woman with no teeth? What is the sex rank of a woman who can care for 8 children, sew clothes, herd sheep, make butter, and bake bread AND have sex with you when she is not pregnant?
    It seems to me that people back in the time of the Bible were much more focused on survival. And most women were treated like chattel (thus the admonitions on how to treat them better, like the various admonitions on dietary restrictions, etc).
    It is my observation that sex rank, game, discussions about Alpha, etc., are unique to modern societies, and perhaps even to certain cultures, where women have achieved a certain level of rights and even financial freedom.
    While I understand the concept of Christian MMSL, I am not sure you can literally compare Jewish men (for that is what Jesus was) in the years surrounding 1AD with men today.

  54. FeralFelis –

    People often died young from injury, diseases related to poor sanitation, and the odd famine, but other than being taken out by these things, people lived quite long lives. They didn’t die of old age at an earlier age. And you can dig up skulls from thousands of years ago that have all their teeth intact and few, if any, cavities. If you didn’t lose your teeth from being clubbed in the face, you kept them all your life. The average length of life is artificially low, because people died in childbirth and infancy more often. That’s the problem with averages.

    I’m not sure that I get your point about not comparing the ancient Jews to modern Christian-type men, because I was trying to highlight the differences between society then and now. Game is necessary because of modern society. It was rather less necessary when women existed in a society where they faced serious consequences for being antagonistic towards their husbands.

  55. Ted –

    Thanks. I’m a pretty emotionally-expressive person, so I don’t think that being cold and calculating is the way to go. Women like men who are passionate. They don’t like men who are weak. There is a big difference, but it’s hard for most guys to find.

    Look at someone like Jackie Chan, for instance. He’s quite openly expressive, but he’s still a real man.

  56. OP: check out http://www.amazon.com/Real-Marriage-Truth-Friendship-Together/dp/140020383X

    It’s by a popular young pastor of a very large protestant church named Mark Driscoll. It’s the Christian version of MMSL, and pretty much mirrors the marital issues that Athol and Jennifer had. The personalities are almost identical, too, which is amusing. And yes, it’s loaded with sex questions and answers that they have been asked by their own congregants.

  57. not driscoll says:

    @Jaz71: You and the OP might be interested in seeing how what Driscoll is selling is feminism wrapped in the “Churchianity” that has been described by the earlier commenters — this is amply fleshed out by Dalrock, who was also mentioned earlier. A good start would be this article:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/mark-driscolls-feminist-foolishness-posing-as-christian-wisdom/

  58. @not driscoll: I read Driscoll for fun. I’ve been Atheist since the age of 10.

  59. Was recently reading Chesterton againist divorce, and he expresses the traditional teaching as barring remarriage, not seperation (which would sometimes be necessary)

  60. “If God didn’t want us to do it, he wouldn’t have made it pleasurable.”
    Which is why drug use and stabbing people you don’t like is TOTALLY okay with God…oh wait.

    1 Corinthians covers a great deal of these topics. See chapters 7 and 10 for starters.

  61. gardenoflove says:

    As a Christian I agree that refusing sex with your husband is not right,especially if this happens frequently without apparent good cause. I say apparent cause because coming to this site helped me understand why I was turned off by my husband. Gentlemen, it is not enough to just state the obvious (she isn’t having sex with me let alone varied sex) and not look carefully at why. Sometimes her reasons are bogus and sometimes they are very real. Athol states his ideas on how to deal with both. Truly, not all wives are refusing because they are trying to be cruel or are indifferent. They are often aware of their husbands anger or frustration but feel helpless in the face of their growing lack of attraction to their own husbands and sometimes don’t even know why they feel that way!
    I see men quite angry and frustrated with their wives here but didn’t Athol say he saw on another site the same repeated issues coming up with wives there as to why they were turned off? If you blame her and don’t think you need to make any changes Alpha or Beta you and she will remain frustrated and with greatly reduced sex lives. Christians are the product of radical sacrifice and opportunity to change. This seems like an opportunity to do the same with very pleasant results. Just being angry that she isn’t into having sex with you is only the beginning of observation. Doing something about it in a positive way and forgiving her seems to be the next.

  62. Mark – “I’m a pretty emotionally-expressive person, so I don’t think that being cold and calculating is the way to go. Women like men who are passionate. They don’t like men who are weak. There is a big difference, but it’s hard for most guys to find.”

    Yeah I have no idea how to approach this. I do my best to minimize my emotional responses to anything, mostly because I’ve always felt like emotions were misleading, and the best course of action is always to be logical. That emotional detachment works splendidly when cold logic is required, but it really doesn’t help in the least when dealing with other people, especially ones I love and care about. And being emotionally detached when my SO is angry or upset at me is nearly impossible without causing her to feel like I don’t care. And I don’t really know of any way to “manage” those types of emotional states other than completely shutting them down and waiting for whatever the crises is to pass before taking a closer look about how it made me feel.

    I believe this is some personality quirk of mine because on the inside I am actually a very emotional person. I am certainly passionate about many things, but for me passion while in an angry state generally leads to bad outcomes. Don’t get me wrong, I can and do control my anger very well, but it isn’t something I can do in varying degrees. For me emotion is either on or off. If it’s on during some kind of highly charged situation, I pretty much can only go along for the ride. Turning it off protects me from the effects of other people’s emotions, but it also completely cuts me off from feeling empathy for their feelings and situation. Mostly because empathy requires an emotional context, and when I’m “in the zone” I don’t have an emotional context to use. Normally if I find myself in this situation, I can choose to remain cold, or I can choose to allow an emotional response and go along for the ride. And again, for me emotion during anger results in hurt feelings and bruised egos.

    I have strong emotions, but I’m really not that emotionally strong. I can appear to be, but that is only because I simply suppress my emotional responses. I can be easily emotionally manipulated if I don’t keep a strong hold on my emotional responses, but the result is that I appear to be very cold and callus. Of course having to keep that “strong hold” with my SO makes me feel like I am distancing myself from her, and the end result is I feel like I am not being caring enough. And honestly, it feels a bit like I’m keeping part of myself from her. I guess I’d always hoped I would find someone that wouldn’t take advantage of my emotional state so that I wouldn’t have to wall myself up from them. I suppose that is asking a lot from anyone, but even more so from a woman that is in love with me. But it really feels a bit like I can’t trust her knowing about things like “shit tests”. I don’t want to feel like I have to be on guard with her, but it doesn’t really seem like there is a choice.

  63. @FeralFelis:

    As a history major (yeah, yeah, I know, but I was lucky enough to get a decent job out of it) I have to object.

    “Isn’t it true that back in days of yore, most people only lived into their 30?s or 40?s?2

    No. Once people survived the first year (infant mortality), didn’t die in childbirth (maternal mortality), from epidemics or war, they had a very good chance of making it at least to their 60s. Even from the more recent data:

    “If a person living in 1900 managed to survive childhood and childbearing, she had a good chance of growing old. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a person who made it to 65 in 1900 could expect to live an average of 12 more years; if she made it to 85, she could expect to go another fouryears. In 2007, a 65-year-old American could expect to live, on average, another 19 years; if he made it to 85, he could expect to go another six years.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-unrealistic-views-of-death-through-a-doctors-eyes/2012/01/31/gIQAeaHpJR_story.html?wprss=rss_opinions

    You see similar dynamics in places like sub-Saharan Africa. Swaziland has a life expectancy of about 30, not because people die at that age, but because disease, childbirth, under nutrition, etc., just wipe them out, bringing the average down.

    Also, do you really think that the underclass slums of 19th century Britain had male life expectancies of 17, because the males all dropped dead around 17? Of couse not. The health conditions were so appalling that they wiped out vast numbers, but if you survived that you had a great chance of living to a fairly good age.

    It’s not that I’m disputing your overall point. It’s that I’m not sure what your overall point *is*, because the alleged facts that you’re bringing up make my eyeballs bleed.

  64. Juste Sommeguy says:

    People in the modern west and Americans especially tend to think that because western culture was founded by Christians, Western morality = Christian morality. But we are coming to the Bible from a vastly different perspective than its writers. The Bible was written in a world where people were primarily concerned with acquiring ‘honor’ (which to them meant publicly recognized status), and male dominance was the norm. The culture was already naturally alpha, so the book is more heavily weighted towards admonitions to be more beta. Our culture is highly beta-ized.

    To apply the teachings properly, we would have to look at them from the perspective of patriarchy. Churchianity looks at them from the perspective of weak Feminism plus Mommy Worship, with a Hamster that is devoted to ignoring anything that isn’t nice. Thus, Jesus can call his enemies snakes and his right-hand man satan and and wade into the temple with a whip he personally braided to drive people out and yet Churchians instantly denounce name-calling as “Un-Christlike.”

    Thus “Wives, submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives”, whenever read in a western church, has some magic mumbo-jumbo about “mutual submission” applied which somehow transforms it into “Husbands, submit to your wives, and wives love your husbands so long as they are being good boys.”

    Roissy’s game focuses on fallen human nature, and has to be picked through carefully, but it -does- bear study because understanding human nature is part of the Biblical concept of wisdom. Athol’s Alpha/Beta Captain/First Officer Game is anti-Biblical in some details, but not most, and the theory of it is basically a perfect description of Biblical Morality applied to a patriarchal culture.

  65. FeralFelis says:

    @ Liz and Mark-
    I actually asked that as a question, because even aside from the misunderstanding generated by statistics (average vs mean vs range), I was NOT sure if I had understood the lifestyle and life expectancy of the Jewish culture in the years leading up to and including 33 A.D.

    Mark’s explanation helped a lot; yes, that was what I was wondering.
    Liz, sorry my question made your eyes bleed; that sounds pretty painful!

    Thanks for the clarification.

  66. @FeralFelis:

    lol. I kind of overreacted there, I know. It’s just such a common mistake, and it drives me insane to see so many people spout it with so much confidence. If I can figure out – very – basic maths and statistics, there really is no excuse.

  67. General thoughts on the question:

    This reminds me a little bit of something Socrates went through with his buddy Euthyphro. Socrates wanted to know what Euthyphro meant when he used the word “pious,” and ‘phro (as his friends called him) answered that he defined “piety” as “that which is loved by God.” Socrates thought this over and then said, “Well, that makes sense as far as it goes, but I’m not sure I really understand. Does God love the pious because it’s pious, or is it pious because God loves it?” They hashed it out a little and had a good chat about the qualities a pious person has, and ultimately decided that it was those qualities that God approved of. Defining “piety” as “that which God loves” is circular; defining it as a certain set of qualities and declaring that God loves it because He happens to be an excellent judge of those qualities makes more sense.

    What does this have to do with the question? Well, I tend to think that God created us with certain faculties, among them reason and judgment, and that He did so because He intended us to put them to use. He does not want us to blindly obedient to Him; he wants us to obey Him because what He wants us to do is right and proper and good for us. It’s not right and proper because God commands it; God commands it because it’s right and proper.

    Therefore, good advice tends to be the same whether it’s coming from a secular source like Athol or a religious source like the Bible or your pastor or wherever. If you get some advice from a religious source and it doesn’t seem to be right and good and proper advice, then you’re either understanding it wrong or your religious source is getting their message mixed up. And if a nice well-meaning secular guy like Athol offers you some advice, and you’ve thought it over using your God-given reason and judgment and come to the conclusion that it’s right and good and proper, then chances are it should jibe pretty well with your religious mores.

    God wouldn’t tell you to do something that was against your own interest. He’s been doing this for thousands of years and He’s gotten pretty good at it. So rather than taking a bunch of religious constraints and then trying to figure out how you can make yourself happy within them, I’ve found it more constructive to figure out how to make oneself happy first, and jibing it with religion second. It’s not that religion shouldn’t enter into it, it’s just recognizing that any time religion seems to be telling you to do something that flies in the face of logic or common sense, then something must have gone wonky with either the religion or the logic because in the natural course of things, they should almost always agree.

  68. @Ted:

    It’s a balancing act, no doubt. One way to look at it is as the difference between “sympathy” (recognizing another person’s feelings) and “empathy” (actually feeling what they are feeling).

    You can be sympathetic to your wife’s feelings even when the reason behind them is flat-out wrong. In fact, you can come right out and tell her that, in a calm and controlled way. “I can see that you are very angry right now.” You’re not blaming her for being angry. You’re not making a judgment on whether that anger is justified. You’re not apologizing for making her angry, or letting her anger provoke you into getting angry. And you’re not ignoring the fact that she’s angry. You’re just stating a fact that needs to be dealt with before you can make any progress.

    Your cold, rational “crisis mode” isn’t a problem unless it becomes the default way you relate to her, and if that’s the case, then there probably really is a deeper crisis with your marriage that needs to be resolved. In fact, having it to call upon is a useful tool as long as you can switch it off when it’s not needed any more. It shows her that when she’s pleasant toward you, she gets Warm Caring Husband, and when she’s angry and unpleasant, she gets Cold Businesslike Husband. Cold Businesslike Husband will still recognize her feelings and take them into account while working to solve whatever problems she brings to him, but he’s not very pleasant to be around. Therefore it behooves her not to be unpleasant toward you unless she has a very good reason, and to bring up any problems she does have in a civilized and appropriate way so that they can be handled by Warm Caring Husband instead.

  69. Anonymous7 says:

    I truly hope that Dalrock’s readers aren’t going to start hanging out here. Their constant whining about the feminization of the Church, their rights as men, the evils of modern women, etc., etc., etc. is incredibly tiresome. Plus the fact that they believe that they, and only they, have a complete lock on how to interpret the Bible when it comes to men, women, marriage, and the family. No one can change anyone but himself (as Athol has said many times). So run the MAP, be your own man, be positive and strong, and stop whining.

  70. LongLostFriend says:

    A lot of Dalrock’s readers and Athol’s readers are the same people. Venn diagram fail.

    Sheesh, one post with a religious flavor on MMSL, and all the Christ-haters start acting like we are “invading their turf.” Take a deep breath, Anon7. We have already returned to regularly-sceheduled programming.

  71. FeralFelis – Happy to help with the clarification. I’ve been enjoying your comments, but don’t spoil it by bringing statistics into things. Lol!

    Ted – Yeah, it’s a work in progress for me, but I’m finally getting to a place where I’m doing noticeably well. I’ve had some really difficult stuff to overcome that affected my emotions, in a lasting chemical sense, so it’s been an uphill battle. When I became Christian I had a lot of my old anger drop away from me instantly. Other things have taken longer. Prayer helps and so does practice. I’ve turned away from so many negative influences in my life and trained myself to focus on the positive as much as possible. That has helped. Now when I face negative situations I am more balanced. somehow, being positively-focused allows me to restrain the potential negative emotions without as much struggle.

    It’s like when you exercise and after a while you get to a point where you really notice the difference. Maybe after a few weeks you have to run up a few flights of stairs or something and when you reach the top you feel alive, rather than out of breath and old.

    I’m avoiding blogs and forums I used to visit that got me worked up and arguing. I don’t follow the news (it’s amazing how much you take in without trying, though). I don’t listen to depressing music or watch depressing movies. Etc. As the Bible says, “whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.” I’m far from perfect—or even as obedient as I could be—but I’m being blessed with a peace I never knew I could have.

  72. Anonymous7 says:

    Interesting assumption LongLostFriend – I am not a Christ hater at all, but a Christ lover. I just happen to think that a lot of the posts at Dalrock are whiny complaints by men who think that they are entitled to more “rights” than they are receiving. How you got “Christ hater” out of that is beyond me. It is possible for someone to love Christ yet strongly disagree with some opinions in the Christian”manosphere,” just like it’s possible for someone to love Christ yet be completely fed up with most of the “church.”

  73. Re: 5. Hot Kinky Sex…

    Clearly I’m late to the party, but I figured I’d toss this out in case it helps someone who needs it. Not sure if it’s been mentioned yet (I scrolled through the comments to check and it didn’t pop out–but maybe I missed it?), but there’s a great site for Christian women interested in exploring their sexuality… it’s called Christian Nymphos:

    http://christiannymphos.org/

    It’s written by women for women, and gets right into the nitty gritty of sex (yes, even anal). If the name “Christian Nymphos” doesn’t grab you, their slogan is “Married Sex: spicy, the way God intended it to be!”

    Unfortunately, the ladies who ran it no longer have the time to update, but they’ve kept the articles accumulated thus far up and running on the site for future visitors. And one of them has gone on to start her own blog in a similar vein, called Monogabliss:

    http://monogabliss.com/

    Thoroughly enjoy your blog, Athol. Cheers!

  74. Angeline says:

    @Ted – correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re just starting out in this journey, no? Are your wife’s angry outbursts justified by things you haven’t done/improved in yourself yet? Or are they just temper tantrums? It’s a legitimate reaction to feel attacked and emotional if the anger is her own crap, misdirected at you. And I’m not sure that a sharp, abrupt rebuttal isn’t called for. Another issue I see a lot between people who have been married a number of years is the casual way we can heap abuse on the person closest to us. You see couples in a restaurant speaking viciously to each other, and then giving the waitstaff charming, considerate manners. Sit her down when you’re NOT fighting, and tell her there will be no dirty fighting. “Stop, woman, and consider how you frame your upset to me. Is your interest in this to “win” the argument, or to move forward as a couple?” Pick out the angry tantrum from the legitimate beefs. After this conversation, tell her there will be no discussion unless she can speak to you rationally, like an adult. Perhaps that will cut down on the emotional tirades directed *at you*. Shouting something aand flouncing out of the room with slammed doors isn’t accomplishing anything, it isn’t constructive – it’s reality TV/soap opera theatrics.

  75. Write the Christian edition of MAP/MMSL and cite a few scriptures, and watch your sales double.

    If you did so, you could blow the doors off your sales figures, and help a TON of people in the church. If you did a Christian edition, I would buy copies to give to Pastors everywhere. Man, the Christian boys are so beta it is ridiculous, and families are being destroyed and children harmed, all for lack of the red pill.

    Seriously man, please write that.

  76. “As far as I can tell, a lot of the problem comes from erroneous teaching within churches, not from the Bible itself. Best to discern as a couple what is moral and what isn’t. Many things passed off as immoral are simply those things that the passer offer finds distasteful, which doesn’t necessarily indicate immorality (although obviously sometime it can, which is why discernment from a well-formed conscience is needed more than a bunch of rigid rules that end up being a hindrance to the intimacy that is reserved for marriage). ”

    Er, no.
    It’s all there in the Catholic Catechism. No, a couple does NOT discern what is moral and what is not. You are in grave error, here.

    Rationalization hamsters working overtime. ;)

    You could always start your own religion if you find the rules of the Catholic faith unpalatable .. :)

  77. I’m laughing here because my husband could write the “Christian” version of all of this just because he really
    is such a manly man..lol…and he has never read any of this stuff.He just lives his life as a Christian man is supposed to and loves the Lord also!

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