How To Get Over Resentment Toward Women

Chatting on teh Facebooks…

Alpha Dude:  I need some advice. I had a guy email me, been going through a divorce for two years (he says she’s managed to drag it out that long) and now he just feels resentment towards women and doesn’t know how to get over it (long and short of it).

Athol:  What was the cause of the divorce?

Alpha Dude:  Wife cheated and left and they have a kid.

Athol:  Why did she cheat?

Alpha Dude:  He doesn’t say. I’m guessing he AFC’d it up and made her vagina as dry as the mojave.   (AFC: Average Frustrated Chump)

Athol:  So the way forward is to stop shifting all the blame for the relationship failure onto her, accept that he made mistakes, and self-improve so he doesn’t repeat the same mistake with future women. Sometimes it’s just easier to hate women than accept you made any mistakes.

Alpha Dude:  Thank you.

Athol:  It’s a very common pattern that this happens btw. I’ve seen so many guys admit they ignored her fair warnings in the aftermath of affairs and divorce.

Alpha Dude: Yeah, I understand where he’s coming from with the bitterness and resentment.  Though I’ve never been divorced, I have been cheated on and left when I thought we had a good thing going.

Athol:  But in the aftermath could you see anything you could have done better?

Alpha Dude:  Oh yeah for sure well but like not in the aftermath afterwards.

Athol:  Oh yeah I mean not in the middle of it.

Alpha Dude:  As things were failing, as I was trying to put it all together – I was angry.  But after, looking back, yes.

Athol:  After it’s basically over and you’re moving on.

Alpha Dude:  Pre-game aftermath, no.  Post game, yes.

Athol:  It’s basically the final step to moving on.

Alpha Dude:  Right.

Athol:  The basic issue is inablity to forgive her, and understanding is the road to forgiveness. Once you can say “Oh I see why she did that now.”  You’re there. Most women aren’t random lunatics doing things for no reason. They just have different motivations than men. But they do rationally seek to meet those motivations.

Alpha Dude:  Imagine if game had never been stumbled on.

Athol:   Yeah Game is important. So many relationships could have been saved or happier for it.

Athol:  Which is not to say some women aren’t batshit crazy or evil.

Alpha Dude:  ^lol

Athol:  But then you shouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place.

Athol:  I can’t think of a post for today lol. I think this is it.

The only thing I’d add to that exchange is that it is completely normal to be deeply hurt and angry by getting screwed over in your relationship. Being cheated on sucks. Having your partner dump you sucks. I’m not making light of any of that. But at the end of the day, you still being twisted all out of shape over your ex doesn’t affect them… it affects you. And forgiving them doesn’t really affect them… but it does affect you. So ultimately forgiveness is something you do for you.

I’m not talking about you taking on all the blame for the relationship failure either. She could have always not cheated or not left you. I’m saying it’s finding your fair share of the failure and finding a way to move forward as best you can. If you want to be able to have a loving intimate sexual relationship with a woman at some point in the future, holding onto resentment and anger ensures that can’t happen.

Jennifer:  Even good marriages have bad moments where you really hurt each other. You have to move past those moments or it stops being fun to be together.

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Comments

  1. Bill says:

    Borrowing from Jennifer’s quote, it stopped being fun about a dozen years ago. The anger is so great, that even when she wants sex (twice in the past four months) I haven’t had the slightest bit of interest.

  2. Brian says:

    I will say it is still a little frustrating at times that I have to constantly game a woman, even after almost a year together. Sadder still is that I had to finally accept that I have better odds of finding a woman worth keeping outside of church than I do at church.

  3. Ceer says:

    I’m against forgiveness for a woman who doesn’t do the equivalent of a man’s taking the red pill and learning game. In our society, most men are required to have some form of training to be attractive to the opposite sex. Women need to shoulder some of the responsibility too…

    There’s a difference between forgiveness and letting her all the way back in your life like nothing had happened. It’s about letting go of the pain and being able to advance into a happier future for you. Which she may or may not be a part of. Often that “not being a part of” aspect is what finally feeds the woman her own Red Pill.

  4. Alpha says:

    Cross posted over at The Alpha Persona: Harboring Resentment. Throw a bit of my personal experience and immaturity into the mix, makes for a good read.

  5. Liz says:

    @Brian:

    “I will say it is still a little frustrating at times that I have to constantly game a woman, even after almost a year together. ”

    So you’re basically whining that you can’t rest on your laurels? So many marriages and LTR relationships have, I think, been ruined by one or both partners not doing what attracted the other person to them in the first place.

  6. Ted D says:

    Liz – “So you’re basically whining that you can’t rest on your laurels? So many marriages and LTR relationships have, I think, been ruined by one or both partners not doing what attracted the other person to them in the first place.”

    Well duh. I was told most of my young life that all I had to do was “be me, be nice” and my marriage would be hunky dory. I believed that the “hard work” of a relationship was paying the bills, taking care of the house, and making sure the kids do well in school.

    Turns out that is the easy shit. The hard shit is constantly having to “keep her interested”, or it can be if a man’s spouse is particularly excitement seeking or easily bored. I still catch myself being resentful that I have to “entertain” my SO by gaming her so that she will stay interested. To me, all I expect from her is to be loving and affectionate towards me, be responsible, and work with me to accomplish stuff. So yeah, I am still in the mindset that ‘gaming’ her is asking for extra effort from me, because I don’t expect her to “game” me back.

    I’m working on changing my line of thought about this to something like: gaming my SO *IS* showing her affection in the manner she needs to get it. Meaning, I can’t show her affection the way *I* want/need it, because we want/need different things. When I keep that in mind, the resentment and bitterness fade. But I have to admit, it is a daily chore for me to keep on top of this. I have to make the conscious decision to remember this: every. single. day. Because honestly, it was never a thought in my head going all the way back to my first “serious” GF when I was 15 that perhaps she needs something different than I do from the relationship. I always understood that a relationship involved a lot of give and take, I just never realized that what was being given and taken may not be the same. I may take physical affection from my mate, but I need to give her ‘emotional excitement’ in the form of some mild game. To me, that feels off balance and counter intuitive, that is, it feels wholly unnatural to me. I want/need physical affection (not just sex, but hugging, snuggling, etc.) and naively assumed that she needs it as well. She does, but not nearly as much as I do. She has other more pressing needs that I must meet, but the real gotcha is that most women don’t seem to know what they need any more than I knew they needed something different at all.

    So please Liz, can we stop with the shaming language and taunts? I can assure you that I put in TONS of effort the entire time I was married. Unfortunately, much of that effort was going to the wrong things, and the end result was a divorce. It doesn’t mean I was lazy or “resting on my laurels” at all. It means I had NO idea that all the effort I was putting in wasn’t doing any good for our relationship.

    It makes me think you are a bit of an entitlement princess when you toss out “lazy man” comments. I certainly know a few of those, but I find that it is much more common to find a hard working guy that just doesn’t have a clue.

  7. GardenofLove says:

    Yes, some women do not know what they need or want and it takes some time to figure that out. I like what Athol has to say because it made me feel unashamed to admit what I needed was ok. However, as some of the women here have stated, they did go to their husbands and say what they needed quite clearly. I did that and was also clearly told that it was: not necessary because he was doing enough, my needs were not valid, it was too much to do, wasn’t sure how to do it (but wouldn’t look into reading anything) and the real problem was me.
    Is it really that hard to be Alpha? Is it abnormal and just a game? I am saying the Beta and Alpha seem like they should be normal in men.

  8. Brendan says:

    It’s quite true that forgiveness of offenses against oneself is critically important to moving forward with one’s life. It’s very hard to move forward oneself without that — it’s really about you and not about the other person.

    At the same time, however, this is not the equivalent of accepting blame or “being understanding of why she cheated”. Cheating is wrong. Period. There are always reasons for cheating, just as there are reasons for anything else anyone does, but this does not mean that the cheating is justified, understandable, or in any way the fault of the cheatee. The cheater’s unhappiness may be, in part, the fault of the cheatee, but the cheating itself is 100% the fault of the cheater in terms of it having been the cheater’s decision to act that way as a result of whatever dissatisfaction they were feeling in the relationship. That is, it’s important to distinguish between what the cheatee may have done to make the relationship an unhappy one, on the one hand, and the unilateral decision of the cheater, on the other hand, to act out on that unhappiness in the form of cheating. No-one is forced to cheat, and the decision to cheat is always 100% on the person who decides to cheat — it’s a separate thing from the underlying unhappiness, because the decision to cheat in response to that unhappiness is only one of many possible decisions the cheater could have made — it was their choice, and it’s their responsibility for having made that choice.

    I may take physical affection from my mate, but I need to give her ‘emotional excitement’ in the form of some mild game. To me, that feels off balance and counter intuitive, that is, it feels wholly unnatural to me. I want/need physical affection (not just sex, but hugging, snuggling, etc.) and naively assumed that she needs it as well. She does, but not nearly as much as I do. She has other more pressing needs that I must meet, but the real gotcha is that most women don’t seem to know what they need any more than I knew they needed something different at all.

    On this point, it’s critical to figure out what she actually needs. Different women actually do have different needs. The needs of my current girlfriend are very different from the needs of my ex-wife. Some women also require quite a bit more gaming and so on than others do. Of course, no-one should ever take their partner for granted, but at the same time it’s also true that different women require different degrees, and different amounts, of gaming than others do. A big part of success, it seems to me, is finding a woman who is a good fit for you in this regard, both in terms of what you are comfortable providing, as well as what you are proficient at providing. Different love languages and all that.

  9. GardenofLove says:

    Also, Athol untangled my confusion about the ongoing complaint of men wanting wives to initiate with them. If I have this right he says they react rather than ordinarily initiate. Anecdotal, but I do initiate if my interest is regularly stimulated and engaged. My mindset becomes of wanting to get more of that good thing.

    However, we developed a roadblock where he wanted to have sex when he was in the mood (not often) . When I was in the mood he was too busy. He wanted me to initiate, to initiate more sex and to initiate sex in the form of things done exclusively for him. He did not want to change anything per Athol’s Alpha suggestions to add to my interest. I go too discouraged to want to do anything.

  10. Ted D says:

    GardenofLove – “Is it really that hard to be Alpha? Is it abnormal and just a game? I am saying the Beta and Alpha seem like they should be normal in men.”

    I really can’t tell to be honest. Much of it is probably learned behavior from a young man’s environment, and of course there is the MBTI personality types that outline different characteristics of certain personalities.

    But, let me answer you from another angle. If we set aside the alpha/beta labels for a moment, what you are asking is: “is it really that hard to be attractive to women?” The answer of course is: maybe, depending on what women you are trying to attract. For some men, being dominant, cocky, and aloof come naturally, and those traits seem to be exciting to a great many women. For me, I’ve always associated “dominance” with “bad”, “asshole”, or “selfish” because I was told all through my childhood that being dominant and assertive was a bad trait, and that a “good” person doesn’t impose their will on others. I’ve always been a bit cocky and funny, and I can see looking back that this is probably why I had any luck with women at all. I am very aloof with most people, but have a VERY difficult time being so with someone I love and care about. I tend to naturally go “all in” once I’ve decided I want to be with someone, and I find it VERY difficult to pull away if/when necessary. I struggle with this a lot because I want more attention and affection from my mate, and my natural instinct to get it is to be more attentive and affectionate myself. Not only does it not work, in most cases it makes things worse. But, when what I really need is a hug, its damn hard to be aloof.

    So now, to the alpha/beta stuff. Your question of “is it really that hard to be Alpha?” Yes, for many men it is damn near impossible to BE alpha because it just isn’t in their nature, or if it was, it was forcibly removed from them when they were young. I can’t tell you how many boys I’ve seen be reprimanded for just being a boy and doing what boys do naturally. Every time a parent or teacher “smacks down” natural male behavior, they are very possibly chipping away at that young man’s “alphaness”. I wasn’t that child though. I was always the quiet child that no one remembered was around. I was the kid that would sit and happily read a book for hours instead of playing with kids outside. I have always been introspective and considerate. Couple that with an early Catholic school environment and a single mother, and I became a very good candidate for poster man of the beta world.

    When it comes to my relationships, I can’t tell you how much effort it takes me to simply push back on my SO if/when necessary. My instinct isn’t to analyze every request to see if it is legit or a ‘shit test’ and it is distracting for me to put effort into that analyses. I never imagined that the person I am with might be “testing” me to see how much she can “bend me to her will” since I never would consider doing so to her. I don’t naturally lead, mostly because I am the type of person that does NOT like to make a decision until I feel like I know all the facts. I get frustrated when I am forced to make decisions quickly, and become rather angry when a quick decision turns out to be a bad one. I also very much dislike having to concentrate on the details of anything. I’m a “big picture” person. I like to come up with the ideas, and then set other people to the task of figuring out how to make my idea work. For sure, I like being involved in that process, but I prefer to actually leave the small decisions to someone else. In a relationship, this translates to me not giving a crap about what we eat for dinner tomorrow. Or what vehicle we should take to the store today. or any number of the daily mundane decisions that have to be made. I’m working on it because I realized that if I was single, I’d have to do this all myself anyway. But, to be fair, if I was single there would be FAR less of these to worry about at all.

    For me, yes, being Alpha is hard.

  11. Random Angeleno says:

    Forgiveness is something you do for you.

    @Ceer among others: this is the single most important quote in Athol’s post. When you forgive the other person, you’re not telling them they’re off the hook, you’re not necessarily forgetting what was done to you, you’re not telling them they get to escape the consequences for what they did. That isn’t it.

    What forgiveness is: it’s you saying “I am done with letting this get to my head, therefore I am going to set this aside so that I can move on.” Think of all the feelings you have about the other person: anger, bitterness, hatred, resentment, etc. Think of how your feelings are holding you back from moving on, getting on with the rest of your life, dating again. You want to date again? How many women think an angry, bitter man is attractive? Finally, think of how little your feelings affect the other person versus how much they affect you. Forgiveness has absolutely *nothing* to do with whether the other person deserves it or not. It is *all* about you and your attitude going forward.

  12. ExtremeBalance says:

    “Is it really that hard to be Alpha? Is it abnormal and just a game? I am saying the Beta and Alpha seem like they should be normal in men.”

    We could turn that around and say:
    Is it really that hard to be Feminine? Is it abnormal and just a game? I am saying that the Appreciation and Femininity seem like they should be normal in women.

    Many mixed signals are given to both men and women by people in our lives (some with good intentions), media, etc.

  13. Hung says:

    I don’t know…..about this theory. At some point game can only get you so far. The partner has to have morals and a general sense of decency or you’re going to get screwed over. Game or not…. I think the mansophere still places far to much blame on the man for not maintaining the relationship and just lets the women play the beta card as an excuse to ever awful move or action they do to their husband or boyfriend.

    Game doesn’t solve everything. If they girl is a pile of junk person, game is only going to get you so far. YOu can’t maintain the “love” feeling for years on end. Eventually the person has to be committed to what they are being provided by the male.

  14. Firepower says:

    WHY is it the guy’s responsibility to be Mr. Fix-It
    when SHE is the adulterer?

    Pay your child support like a man. That pain will teach ya
    What your dad didn’t

  15. Hope says:

    Ted D, that’s like saying, “for me, being masculine is hard.” Likewise if a woman said, “for me, being feminine is hard.” Maybe it is, or maybe you’ve just been brainwashed into thinking that being true to your birth sex is a bad thing. Men are told to act like women, and women are told to act like men. In the end men and women are all neutralized and told they’re “the same.” That’s not attractive.

    One does not have to be some huge jerk to be masculine, or to be super slutty to be feminine. Find your own masculine/feminine core and cultivate it. Whining and being pissy/negative/bitter would be neither masculine or feminine. Self-development and being positive/content/interesting could be either masculine or feminine. You will know it when you see/experience it.

  16. M3 says:

    When i separated from my wife a year and a half ago, i was seething in rage. I believed i did everything right. Loved unconditionally, supplicated, put her before me on all things, supported her, etc.. i left feeling like i had done everything right and stabbed in the back.

    I’ve let all that hate go (with the exception of not forgiving her for quitting on me. marriage vows should matter) but the reasons behind why she became dissatisfied with me became more obvious the further into game and the manosphere i delved into. i recognized myself for the doormat i was.

    I could have sat there and stayed bitter, thinking i did nothing wrong. My friends could have continued to convince me that i was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that 100% of the break was on her. It takes an immense amount of courage to introspect and understand where you went wrong even when your mind and the world around you tells trys to absolve you.

    I realized i was unattractive. I felt entitled. I didn’t do anything to foster attraction, i simply took it as a given that it should be granted for all my awesome betaness. I began to see every part i played in my own marriages demise. Of course she had her own issues and wasn’t blameless.. but her issues were not for me to resolve (nor was anything of hers my responsibility to give a damn about at this point either). Focusing on her failings would do nothing to address my own.

    The man i am now 1.5 years removed from my marriage is a complete departure from who i was, not in terms of character, but in terms of knowledge and understanding (and sexay boaday yeah). You can scream and fight against nature, or you can understand it and adapt to it. I look at it through new eyes, and enjoy the prospect of staying on my toes and never becoming complacent wrt attraction triggers. I don’t look upon it as being a chore, i look upon it as my role as a man and will enjoy fulfilling that role. The level of game required to keep a woman excited is dependent on each woman individually, so if you require one that requires massive amounts of ahole game to keep around, chances are you’re going to tire quickly. Most will do well with light flirting and innuendo just to keep their women feeling sexy. Admit when you’re wrong, never back down when you’re right, always try to learn something new everyday and attempt to look your best everyday.

    I will never go back to the way i was. I only wish i knew back in highschool what i know today. But i can’t reclaim 2 decades of waste.. i can only enjoy the time i got left. And i intend to.

  17. The Outsider says:

    Athol, you’re being way, way too easy on the (ex) wife, here. Not having the hots for your husband might make her unhappy, but that’s not an excuse to cheat and divorce. She is every bit as much responsible for seeking solutions to an unhappy marriage as he is – the fact that he could have avoided it all if only he’d known about MMSL does not give her a pass.

    For better or for worse; richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, ’til death do us part*.

    * Unless he doesn’t make you horny anymore. Then you can whatever your hamster says will make you happy.

  18. Phinn says:

    I think that it’s a total waste of time trying to figure out how to apportion blame.

    I believe this is true in all aspects of life, but it is especially true in the realm of intimate, personal relationships.

    The only way to be in a satisfying relationship with a woman is to accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for EVERYTHING that happens.

    If she cheats, then it’s your responsibility that the relationship failed. It means that you did not do what was necessary to inspire sufficient attraction to you, or that you chose to become involved with the wrong woman who did not share your views, or that you failed to impress upon her the consequences of her cheating.

    Is her lying wrong? Is her breaking promises of fidelity wrong? Of course they are. There is no need to belabor any of these issues. The answers are obvious to everyone. The problem with even asking these questions is that assigning apportioning fault is a completely worthless exercise. It means nothing. If there were a court system for relationships, even if you could plead your case to 100 juries and win all 100 verdicts in your favor, it wouldn’t mean anything. It is not worth one single second of your time trying to figure out the extent to which you or your wife/girlfriend was at fault.

    If you adopt the mindset that you are FULLY responsible for EVERYTHING, then you will naturally begin to take action where action is needed. You will see that the results you get are entirely in your hands. Even if you only have 1% control over the outcome of a situation (e.g., a marriage, relationship, job, project, etc.), then you had better focus all of your efforts on that 1%, because that’s all you have.

  19. (R)Evoluzione says:

    About 4 years ago, I went through a big breakup with my fiance wherein I learned about hypergamy and betatude the hard way. I was a lesser alpha with hard beta tendencies in relationship. The destruction of that relationship left me scorched, chewed up, and almost, but not quite fully broken.

    To say I had some resentment towards women was an understatement.

    I got over it through the following methods:

    1. I focused on my own needs, wants, desires, and dreams. I took up the sports I always wanted to (hunting) that she didn’t like.

    2. When the Red Pill found its way into my life, I dosed heavily. This meant acknowledging my failures (betatude) and shortcomings, taking full responsibility. This also meant forgiving my ex, and by extension, all hypergamous women. Understand that it’s a biological drive, just like my strong libido is. Accept human nature for what it is, and resolve to make the most of it.

    3. Learn game, practice game, enjoy game. One must learn to enjoy it, to the point where there’s no possibility of resenting a woman for having to game her. Every man needs a worthy opponent, and in finding this in women, I am actually grateful for their tendencies, for it makes me a better, stronger man.

    I will admit it did help that in the process of the above three, I had and continue to have a lot of amazing sex, multiple partners, threesomes, soft harems, etc. I actually thank her for this when I talk to her 1x or 2x a year.

  20. Ted D says:

    Hope – “Find your own masculine/feminine core and cultivate it. ”

    I completely agree, and am working on this wholeheartedly. But, I will still never be “alpha” by definition, and I was answering the question regarding if it is “hard” to be alpha. Yes, it is hard for me, and I will probably never succeed at it to be honest. I can certainly foster alpha traits, and that is where I am putting some focus. But, I will never BE alpha.

    Perhaps I didn’t understand the question correctly. I have no problem being masculine, but I am willing to bet that MY definition of masculine does not match others, or even the popular meaning of the word. I don’t think I was brainwashed into believing being “male” was bad. I was brainwashed into believing that looking out for my own best interests first was bad. Also that putting my needs before others was selfish.

    Essentially, I was raised to “know my place” and serve my masters, whoever they were. I was never once told I was the master of my own life. Not once. I was made into a cog in the wheel.

    And I agree, complaining and whining isn’t attractive. If I’m coming across as such, then I’m writing poorly. I’ve come to accept that I will never be “the man”, or the “top dog”, because frankly I don’t want it. I don’t need to be super attractive to all women, I only need to be super attractive to one. Along those lines, I have no desire to BE alpha at all. Any and all appearances of alphaness from me will be a side effect of my desire to keep my SO interested. What I want to BE is myself. If someone else wants to put a label on it, it doesn’t concern me.

  21. Ted D says:

    (R)Evoluzione – “Learn game, practice game, enjoy game. One must learn to enjoy it, to the point where there’s no possibility of resenting a woman for having to game her. Every man needs a worthy opponent, and in finding this in women, I am actually grateful for their tendencies, for it makes me a better, stronger man.”

    This is my biggest issue at the moment. I don’t enjoy game at all. For that matter, I don’t enjoy a “worthy opponent”, at least in terms of my relationships. In fact, it is exactly the concept of my mate as an “opponent” that I find so distasteful. But I also hate office politics and most types of social hierarchy type battles. I can’t stand power struggles, and very much dislike people testing my resolve. All the “jockeying for position” to me is a waste of time and effort. I have very little competitive drive, and in fact competition is a very poor motivator for me. I honestly can’t understand what motivates someone to simply be “better” at something than another person. So what? It probably just means they spent more time doing that particular thing.

    I have no issue with being a better, stronger man. My issue is I don’t believe that learning to game my SO will make me either. It will teach me how to keep her happy and interested in a very similar manner to learning how to drive a car. I’m by no means a better man because I can operate an automobile, and I don’t expect to be a better man for learning how to “operate” my SO.

  22. GC says:

    M3 – Most will do well with light flirting and innuendo just to keep their women sexy.

    This is so true. The average woman (as opposed to the high-maintenance drama queen!) is looking for relatively modest levels of alpha from her man – sexting, flirting, sexy affection, some direction of the sexual relationship. Of course, it helps if said man has followed Athol’s MAP and is becoming the best man he can be. (And women should be doing the same – becoming the best women they can be.)

  23. Ponyboy says:

    Nice work Ted D, you have made many a good point on this topic.

  24. Ponyboy says:

    I think getting over the resentment is to just accept that “game” can also be called “self-improvement” if you are making yourself the best you can be that’s all you can really do. And it ends up being about you and not about her.

    The guy got cheated on, he now probably understands a bit better why. It doesn’t excuse his wife’s behaviour but perhaps he would do things differently knowing what he now knows.

  25. Anonyman says:

    Any advice for a man going through a similar situation as the divorce example, but still hanging on to a sliver of hope to not end up divorced?

    To expand, I’ve basically been going through an on/off separation reconciliation cycle for over 2 years. To be brief my wife wanted to “separate”..mostly to try to see someone else and not do it behind my back. her attempts at other relationships didn’t work out. I dated, reluctantly, outside the marriage also. We were doing a same-house separation with kids. My situation got hot and heavy too fast and decided I really wanted my wife and to chill on anything else until I knew for sure how things were headed. We basically got back together after 4 months being semi-separated as far as the relationship status. We’ve had our ups and downs since. I’ve read a lot of sites like this one and forums, learned some uncomfortable things about myself, but I’ve carried a lot of resentment and hurt ego over these other guys ( she kinda dated and kissed 2 guys, but no sex sex). A lot of it has been a struggle with my esteem and basically trying to rationalize things in ways that can’t make sense to me- basically feeling really down on myself because she really traded down, IMHO, and what that says about my value.

    Anyway, a lot of these things come out in trickles, and it’s been 2+ years but there are still things i’m trying to understand and things came to a heated conversation with me pushing her buttons to get reactions/insight. And for the first time I looked at her and listened to her and in a single moment I saw MY role in the breakdown of the marriage. My own narrative has been pretty victim-centered and basically being pissed that she threw away a good thing for a chance with some lowlife, I guess that was easier than confronting what i contributed to lower my value. I saw my role for the first time and was left shocked and speechless because all I could think was “Wait. She’s right.” it seemed like ancient history to me but my behavior years ago was a catalyst for her seeking outside validation. That said, i can accept my role but I still disagree with her choices. I don’t believe I “deserved” it. i feel a lot better, if this is the end. Now maybe I’m just being stubborn, but I don’t really know to approach her with this and attempt move things forward. because the reality is i messed up, and I’ve never owned it. My ideal outcome would be to express how I understand my behavior played a role in things down, apologizing, and trying to move forward and that I will get over my resentment over her past acts as well. But i don’t know the process for this without just coming off like a wimp and basically giving approval of her behavior because I was bad and somehow “deserved it” and sort of embolden her to have some crazy feminist empowerment bs triumph over the situation, when the problem is at least 50% her and her cake-eating immaturity, among other things. So much for keeping it brief- though I didn’t really get into that much.

    Summary- I’m getting over the resentment before a divorce is necessary and while there still is a chance for things to turn around, and my own resentment has probably been the main obstacle to a real reconciliation to this point.

  26. (R)Evoluzione says:

    Ted, you’re wrong about learning “game” not making you a better man. The hangup probably comes from the fact that we call it “game,” and not something else like “charisma,” or learning to be a convincing, persuasive orator.

    But that’s exactly what it does. I’ve used the concepts that Athol and others in business, in my non-sexual personal life, with family. It comes in handy daily in my profession. It WILL make you a better man.

    Just like learning to drive a car makes you a more useful, more powerful, more mobile, more fun man, and a happier human being.

    I’ll leave you with Formula 1 hero Ricardo Patrese demonstrating both wife-handling and car-handling skills in a Honda Type R:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIhGJyLR6TI

    That, gentlemen, is frame control.

  27. anonymous says:

    I cant remember where I read this or who wrote it but I love this quote….
    The difference between forgiveness and holding on to a hurt is the difference between sleeping on a pillow made of rose petals and sleeping on a pillow made of thorns.

  28. Joe Commenter says:

    The secret to not having to always having to game your wife and keep her little hamster entertained? Marry the right woman, one that is bat-shit crazy — for you. She should love your beta and your alpha. Marriage isn’t supposed to feel like it’s just another job or a bunch of extra work. Revolutionize has the proper attitude. If you’re not getting what you need from a marriage, there are probably greener pastures out there. I am all for doing what you can to save a marriage, but there comes a point where moving on is better.

    Off topic. But since reading the primer I see this all of the time, so common it’s cliche. At the office, I’ll see a previously overweight, dowdy woman lose the fat, start dressing better. Sure enough, within a few months she’s going back to her maiden name.

  29. Joe Commenter says:

    Revolutionize said: “But that’s exactly what it does. I’ve used the concepts that Athol and others in business, in my non-sexual personal life, with family. It comes in handy daily in my profession. It WILL make you a better man.”

    I was shocked at what a positive influence game has had on my professional life. I work in a co-ed office. Bantering with and Gaming the women has earned me more social respect from them. And the guys now see me always walking and joking with the women. Bonus respect points. There is that halo effect where people assume that because I am socially adept, that I must be adept at my job too. And when you project a personal confidence that says “I am valuable person” you get more respect. People treat you the way you demand to be treated.

  30. Doe says:

    “I am still in the mindset that ‘gaming’ her is asking for extra effort from me, because I don’t expect her to “game” me back.”

    I have an issue with this. Athol has produced a number of posts on having certain expectations that your partner must fulfill. A woman paying attention to her looks is Girl Game. Your wife enjoying sex with you readily and often is Girl Game. Being pleasant, keeping nagging to a minimum, supporting you in your endeavors, and meeting your specific needs are all ways she can “game” you back.

    I think this type of resentment is a response to being asked to meet needs that are different from your own, and that you don’t fully understand. (“You” meaning anyone.) Women have resentment too, especially wrt their partner’s sexual needs. A woman’s desire for an emotionally exciting relationship is just as valid as a man’s desire for a physically exciting relationship. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s disappointing to realize that our partner doesn’t feel “unconditional love” for us.

  31. Ted D says:

    Revolutionize – “The hangup probably comes from the fact that we call it “game,” and not something else like “charisma,” or learning to be a convincing, persuasive orator.”

    The thing is: I’m already decent in this dept. I will admit that it is part of my “work persona” but I’m fully capable of leading a presentation in the board room or making small talk in the kitchen at work. And I’ve done a few stints as the lead singer of rock/metal bands, so I’m not afraid of speaking or performing in front of people. And I did debate team in HS, which I very much enjoyed. I simply don’t like people for the most part, and don’t engage with them unless I have to.

    Doe – “I think this type of resentment is a response to being asked to meet needs that are different from your own, and that you don’t fully understand. (“You” meaning anyone.) Women have resentment too, especially wrt their partner’s sexual needs. A woman’s desire for an emotionally exciting relationship is just as valid as a man’s desire for a physically exciting relationship. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s disappointing to realize that our partner doesn’t feel “unconditional love” for us.”

    Yep this sums it up pretty well for me I think. Like I said above, I get that my SO needs some ‘gaming’ and since I accepted the job of SO for her, I will learn to meet her needs. It doesn’t make it feel any less like extra effort though.

    And, as far as it goes, she shouldn’t be “paying attention to her looks” for me, she should want to stay healthy and look good on her own. I feel the same for being pleasant and not nagging. I will give you that supporting my endeavors does begin to fall into the “extra effort” category to me, as does meeting my special needs. However, “supporting my endeavors” mostly means not complaining if/when I spend a few dollars on some musical equipment or gadget, and I honestly don’t feel like I ask for anything too special. Maybe that is a problem in and of itself. Should I be asking for something special? I do request high heels and lingerie in the bedroom occasionally so perhaps that counts.

  32. Changed Man says:

    This post hit pretty close to home for me, especially Ted’s comment about “hard working guys not having a clue”.

    I had a very similar philosophy to Ted where I thought I was doing my job by being a loving and supportive husband and father and a good provider. After 20 years of a mostly good marriage, my 1st wife has an EA with an old high school beau with no interest in reconciling. It wasn’t until my 2nd wife’s PA that I realized that I had been handed ‘bill of goods’ and took the red pill. I have been doing the MAP now for 3 months and my wife’s response has been unprecedented. I’ve lost over 60 lbs and have been strengthening my alpha skills. She has taken full ownership and shown complete remorse, is busting her ass to deal with her personal demons, and has become my healer.

    Where I still struggle is processing the anger and resentment. Many of the comments here have been very helpful and have given me much to think about. Thanks all, and especially to Athol for bringing me to the light.

  33. ExtremeBalance says:

    Brendan makes the point that one’s feelings are separate from one’s actions and while I agree with him, it reminded me of this post I read a while back:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070110024257/http://www.john-ross.net/advice.htm

    part of which says, “Women base their actions on how they feel at the time. This means that if something no longer “feels” right, they won’t do it, period.” I don’t think things are quite that cut-and-dried but I do think in general the sentiment is correct. Judge it ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ if you like but it may be one of those things that just *is* and accepting and dealing with it will get one a lot farther than resenting it or trying to change it. Great topic, Athol.

  34. Ted D says:

    EB – “Judge it ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ if you like but it may be one of those things that just *is* and accepting and dealing with it will get one a lot farther than resenting it or trying to change it.”

    By that logic, pushing back on shit tests and generally making your SO angry would be relationship dynamite for a man. If she is angry, she isn’t feeling “good” and will likely make decisions that will not be in the relationship’s best interests.

    Seriously, this goes back to Athol’s “exotic pet” post. If women cannot be expected to act properly because they act on how they feel, then they are at best a liability and a constant drain on a man that wants a stable, loving relationship. In that case, men should go Athol’s suggested route, a fleshlight and streaming porn. Dealing with a person that bases their decisions on how they feel will result in frustration and heartache, and it is in no way a responsible way for an adult to live.

    From the article you linked: “If you can keep a woman in the state of feeling excited, anxious, off-balance, and emotional when she’s around you, you can pretty much lead her wherever you want. ”

    I can’t think of anything more tiring than trying to “keep a woman in the state of feeling excited, anxious, off-balance, and emotional”. Those are the types of things I try my best to avoid because of the chaos it creates. Why anyone would actually WANT to be this emotionally unstable is beyond me. Furthermore, none of those ‘feelings’ seem to be very conducive for the formation and long-term success of a relationship. It may work fine in the early stages of dating, but I would simply not get the sense of security I need out of a relationship with so much emotional turmoil. And that sense of security is way up there on my list of things I need from a relationship, along with companionship, physical intimacy, and emotional support.

  35. DB says:

    The thing with game is that it doesn’t promise anything. It just tells the truth. You can do what you like with it. You might not like it, but at least it opens your eyes. If you want a long term relationship that retains passion, excitement, and intimacy then you’re going to have to spend a) a lot of work picking the right type of woman for you, and b) continually working at keeping her interested and sometimes this means being someone you really aren’t. That’s just human nature. You can choose to not like it if you want, but it won’t change anything.

    It’s empowering in that you can now choose whether you think the effort is worth it. A guy can decide, “you know what, it’s not worth it to me to have to continually pretend to be more alpha than I am.” That’s good. You can go and be yourself and choose to be alone as well. The choices aren’t easy and I don’t think anybody said they would be. It can certainly be frustrating when all you want is to find a girl who is just that into you and gives herself over to you without expecting you to be something you’re not. Only in the movies.

  36. Höllenhund says:

    ‘Fair warnings’? What’s the difference between a wife’s ‘fair warning’ and her ‘unfair warning’?

  37. Jaz71 says:

    Every single woman I’ve met that cheated did so because her husband was never around and prefered spending time at work/golfing/fishing/barhopping (pointless to have a spouse or kids if you don’t want to spend time with them), or the the husband cheated first, and she was out to have a revenge fuck and give him a taste of his own medicine.

    Talk long enough with a cuckholded man, and one of these two explanations usually arise.

    But yes, forgiveness is key, as the goal is to simply feel indifferent about the ex, rather than hatred and distrust for women you don’t even know.

  38. Draggin says:

    @Jaz71: You’ve been here long enough to learn that the viewpoint that it is ok for women to cheat if their husbands/boyfriends do not pay attention to them is just a rationalization for bad behaviour. Repeating your girlfriends’ rationalizations for cheating is not helpful. After all, did you expect them to admit their error and say “I’m a cheater just because I was horny and couldn’t control myself?” Of course they are going to give you a reason justifying their actions, even if they have to make one up. Taking these women to task and telling them they are wrong would be a great first step. By stating the reasons as fact and not saying they are wrong, you are implying that those reasons are valid for women. I am curious to know the circumstances where you feel it valid for men to cheat.

    Women may feel neglected, but they have control over what they do to address those feelings. Women are capable of rational thought (NAWALT). That being said, if they cheat, they have made the CHOICE of going back on the relationship agreement of monogamy. Even a revenge fuck is a choice. No one made them do it. No one forced these women to spread their legs, much less their partners. After all, most men will not tie up their women so that some other guy can dump a load in them.

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