When She Hates You With Her Vagina

Chimpy:  Like Flying Dutchman, I have run the MAP. Duty sex is the norm. It isn’t that she is not conscious. She consciously reverse plans what I do. Its as if she were saying “I will have more sex with you but I want you to know I think its a shit idea, and no matter what you try I am going to go out of my way to NOT enjoy it.”   It isn’t lay back and think of England its lay back like a sack of shit and think how to be more negative next time.

Athol:  This sounds much worse than duty sex (offering sex but not being wildly turned on; I wish I used the phrase “maintenance sex” now.) and more like hating you with her vagina. The purpose of her doing this isn’t to offer you an enjoyable moment while she gets to feel close to you. The purpose of this is to passive-aggressively make you suffer by punishing you for wanting her.

This is her still trying to maintain control of the relationship via sex. It’s the thing where you obviously want more sex, so she “gives you what you asked for”, but does so in a manner that technically fulfills your request, but violates your intention. This is a Scorched Earth Defense where she removes any chance of you “winning”, by purposely ruining what you seek to win. The intention being to break your will and force you back to your own side of the bed.

Here’s the thing… it’s a really really effective defense because every time you get sex where she hates you with her vagina, you are making a statement that you’re okay with that arrangement. You’re saying you’re so desperate and dependent on her vagina, that you’re willing to agree to what amounts to self-harm to get it. So odds are you’ll approach her for sex less and less. She does after all have you on a behavior plan designed to make you less and less interested in having sex with her.

Imagine if you will that you ask your wife to make you a cup of coffee and she returns with a simply horrible cup of coffee…. every single time.  Plus she shows no ability to learn or interest in making you a good cup of coffee ever. After a while you’ll just fold and say fuck this shit, I’ll just make my own coffee and never bother her about coffee again. Pretty soon you’ll be online looking at the pictures of all the different coffees you could have and ordering one of those fancy coffeemakers that makes single cups of coffee just for you.

So cutting to the chase…

If she hates you with her vagina, she hates your guts. I mean really really hates you…

…but you have something she needs badly enough to put herself through the experience of having sex with you once in a while. You know she needs something from you because otherwise she’d just leave. The sex is acknowledgement that it’s something you want from her, in order to stay around and keep giving her the thing she wants from you.

The Scorched Earth Defense creates a double bind.  You see, if you have sex with her hating you like this, you lose because you’re displaying desperation and weakness to her. But if you don’t have sex with her, that’s what she wants to happen and you keep giving her what she wants… so you lose that way too. Because she’s putting you in a double bind, she forces your hand toward an equally strong response. If you were playing a game of “Heads she wins, tails you lose” for $20 a coin toss, you’d quickly wise up and stop playing into her frame.

You have to admit to yourself that the entire situation has degraded into something dysfunctional. Admit to yourself that the hate sex is not making things any better. Admit that it all looks pretty much over between you.

 If the only thing she is bringing to the table is being a focus of your oneitis, she brings nothing to the relationship. Your romantic attachment is something you are bring to the relationship, not her. On a purely emotional level, you are probably better off having a random hookup, than having sex with someone that hates you. Not that I’m advising to have random hookups, I’m making a point about how bad being sexually hated is. I mean at least a hooker would say “Thanks” and want to do it again sometime.

Once things are this far gone, it’s easier to give birth than raise the dead. Or put more plainly, there are other women out there in the world that crave a man to bond with and sexually yield to. A relationship with one of them may bring you more joy, peace and happiness than anything you can recover with your wife.

***

So here’s the hope…

Run the MAP, prep for the exit like you have to leave. The power of the takeaway is strong. If you stop being interested in sex with her, stop waiting on her, stop circling forever in her orbit… she loses her leverage to control you. Without the ability to control you, her needs may not be met. Thus the balance of power in the relationship starts swinging quickly from her to you. When that happens, whatever justification she used for hatred may be quickly cast aside in a sea of tears and sorrow for her actions. (On one level that sounds completely cynical and pathetically transparent of her, but that’s what the female Red Pill moment looks like. It’s the moment where she realizes shes ruining everything.)

It might work, it might not. But if nothing else it breaks the cycle of hate and gives you something to do to get your life back into a forward momentum.

Comments

  1. OffTheCuff says:

    This is what we call duty sex in the NMMNG forums, and men should always refuse it. The line between tepid and duty sex is fine, but in general, that line is a general attitude off “go ahead, but I’m not going to enjoy it.” it might be a weak dismissal, or a very wrong to verge on hate. Either way it is bad news.

  2. horseman says:

    an alternate way of looking at it is the shift in power of the grown child leavimg the home. at some point the child.has to take control.from the most powerful person in their lofe, the parent and take control.of their life. the parents might resost it but once done only then will the child be truly seen as an adult.

    also at this horrible poimt in the relationship the risks of an EMA are none. really what is the worst she could.do if she found out? divorce? your already there.. im not ever advocating an EMA but it may be inevitable. focus on what she needs. fiances. kids . whatever. that is the true power soirce. the battle is there. sex is her proxy.
    once yoi threaten the power centre only then will she have motivation to change.
    lastly if she truly hates you why stay. no one deaerves that. at least demand civility

    find what she needs from hou. kids. finances. whatever. dont focus on sex. focus on that thing. tha

  3. horseman says:

    read ian fleming’s short story Quantum of Solice. it is EXACTLY this situation. the outcome was a bit drastic but is a great read for someone in this position.

  4. Love me some malicious obedience.

    However “Horseman” is wrong. Either leave or don’t. Threatening is for wankers.

  5. pdwalker says:

    Great choice of music, great advice.

  6. Awful. This guy is also going to build up a seething resentment that eventually will make HIM dysfunctional with women. Get Out As Fast As You Safely/Wisely Can. If she is conscious of what she is doing, this makes her evil, and she deserves whatever she gets. I would have no compunction about cutting off all compassion for her.

  7. Flipper says:

    Sadly my wife has straddled this line in the past. But not just with sex, she sucks the fun out of almost everything and I don’t know how to deal with it. Sex, going out, just general day to day life type of stuff.
    Me: Oh, we get a minute for a little nookie!
    Her: The kids are right down the street!
    or
    Me: Wanna go see Avengers?
    Her: Pfft!
    or
    Me: Kids are sleeping, let’s get nekkid!
    Her: I’m (insert tired, not feeling good, too busy….pick your martyrdom).
    or
    Her playing with the kids…she just bitches at them constantly. Hold the bat this way, you aren’t holding the bat right. If you aren’t going to listen, then I’m not being involved.

    It’s exhausting to be quite honest. I feel like she gets no joy out of life at all. She doesn’t really have any hobbies, she doesn’t every go out with her friends, she doesn’t ever get enthused about anything. I’ve suggested counseling but she just views that as weakness. I just don’t get it.

    I don’t really want to leave her to be honest but man, I’m looking at another 30-40 years of martyrdom and just general unhappiness.

    What do you do when you wife just refuses to have any fun at all? It’s like the Offsrping Song : Self-Esteem. She feels “the more she suffers, the more it shows she really cares.”

    I don’t know wtf to do. I’m losing weight, dressing better, ordered teeth whitener, managing my breath, doing great in my house flipping business (best year yet), and she just responds with … but I’m too Tiiiiiirreedd…..waahh!

  8. PocketAces says:

    I could see this two ways…

    a) You have upset the power balance, and she’s kinda pissed about it. She’s going along but she’s going to try to sabotage your victory. Or, she’s just not into it because she’s not used to the increased frequency yet. Mostly, people don’t like change.

    b) She truly hates your guts.

    Situation A is a shit test. Have a great time with the sex, really get into it and enjoy yourself. You need to be mentally prepared to maintain your state and not be dragged down by hers. If she isn’t going to enjoy it, that’s HER problem, not yours. You can even say as much.

    If you exhibit any other behavior, she wins. No sex was her goal, if you refuse the sex, she wins. If you don’t enjoy the cold fish sex, she wins.

    If it’s situation B, keep running the MAP and consult an attorney.

    Good luck.

  9. Been There says:

    Flipper: Get out. As fast as you can. This will destroy you.

  10. I appreciate the willing of the readers to share their very personal problems and pain. As a woman reader, it helps me recognize potential problems in myself or helps me see it differently so I can modify my own behavior.

  11. Surely there’s a good reason she hates him. I’m sure the poor woman can’t help that she hates him. I can guarantee that she either knows or thinks she knows why she hates him, so why not ask her? I think that’ll be a good place to start working toward a better marriage relationship with lots of joyful sex.

    Hi Athol and Jennifer, I love your blog! You’re both incredibly wise, wonderful and, most importantly, not bitter:-D Love it!

  12. As a woman in the reverse situation please replace vagina with your favorite name for the male appendage and you describe my situation. You aren’t wrong about what happens between men and women but please realize it happens the other way around rather frequently as well. There are an awful lot of ladies who like and want a fun and sexual relationship.

  13. Flipper, my condolences. I see some of my frustrations towards my kids as being similar to your wife’s. I like to be in control and kids are obviously free spirits so that bothers me sometimes. However, that sounds like one small part of someone who is bitter or maybe depressed (sounds like my brother). Is she depressed? Drugs like Wellbutrin seemed to help my wife’s general spirits and sometimes has impact on libido. Encourage her to develop interests as well that bring passion back. If she starts to like/love herself, I believe her general disposition will improve. Also, not sure how your family eats, but diet also has a great deal of influence in all aspects of our well being. I highly recommend Rob Wolf’s “The Paleo Solution”. I’d say keep running the MAP, focus on yourself and the joy you can get out of the world (I also recommend “Power of Now” for finding that inner peace in a life of turmoil), make sure you’re eating right and exercising, encourage your wife in subtle ways to find her own happiness, and if all that doesn’t work, figure out a way to pull the ripcord. Best of luck.

  14. FeralFelis says:

    Horseman: “also at this horrible poimt in the relationship the risks of an EMA are none…… im not ever advocating an EMA but it may be inevitable.”

    I couldn’t disagree more. The risk of an EMA is that it brands one forever as a Cheater. There is no rationalization which escapes this, and being a Cheater is NOT inevitable. Perhaps the divorce is inevitable; it would certainly seem so from this angle, and I feel sorry for him (can’t remember if he said there are kids involved, but for them if there are).

    But I would STRONGLY ask that Chimpy just go ahead, run the MAP as quickly as he can, and then get the hell out WITHOUT doing the EMA. Or, even leave and run the MAP while he is separated or divorced. Every day in that toxic environment is harmful to his self-esteem. He can hold his head high and keep his personal integrity intact if he does that.

    In fact, this post is a corollary to a post last week, where everyone was recommending dumping both the girlfriend AND the wife, because who wants a girlfriend who cheats?

    What quality woman wants a man who cheated?

  15. Flipper,
    I think, after a point, a wife acting this way is emotionally abandoning her marriage and family. Schedule a joint/back to back appt. with your dr. ( paying two co pays is worth it) and talk to him in front of her about your concerns–her depression, low libido, anger, etc. and get his advice. He can run bloodwork for hormone and chemical imbalances, blood sugar issues, etc. Just schedule it and then tell her when it is, and that you expect her to come with you. Don’t talk to her about the need for getting help–SHE NEEDS HELP! If she won’t go, go by yourself, get a thorough physical, ask the dr. for advice on diagnosing depression ( or manic behavior, whatever it is) in your wife, and then go home and tell her what you learned, and what your plan is to get her help. Be strong, bc she will push back and not show that she is grateful for it, even though she prob will be relieved that you are stronger than she is and can withstand her meanness and care enough to get help.
    Just my .02 from a wife who has HAD the misdiagnosed hormonal imbalances that caused depression, weight gain, anger, and all the issues that ripple out from those…Medication and -50# later, I feel like a different person.
    If she refuses to even try to follow and get help, you have some hard decisions to make. I guess you have to decide what kind of an ultimatum you are willing to follow through on and put it out there.
    To be more concise, I want to encourage you (and the OP) to hold your wife accountable for her meanness and bad behavior, with strength and confidence bc it is very, very wrong to treat your husband family like that. But with tough-love-compassion for her until you are sure that she isn’t fighting a losing battle with a medical issue. She might be crying out for someone to be strong enough to make her get help.
    Of course, she might just be an out of control meanie, but your aggressiveness in looking for a diagnosis would be a serious wake up call, if she has any sense.

  16. Flipper…

    Sorry if I repeat someone else’s comment, I didn’t have time to read them all.

    It sounds like you wife is unhappy in general. Perhaps there is something in her life that she is missing? Something that she used to have, but no longer does.

    Also, I hate to say it, she could also be mentally tagging out of the marriage too. Being there in body, not in spirit. Only you would know since you are around her everyday.

    I hope things get better.

    As for Athol’s post, having sex in this situation I think is a mistake. The OP needs to destabilize the relationship as soon as he can. Run the MAP – look, act, dress better, go out with friends, take up new interests outside of the marriage etc…

    Athol acknowledges that either situation is a loss (sex or no sex) and I agree. I think having the sex is the greater loss for the OP as she will surely look at him as weak and as someone who is putting her pussy on a pedestal.

  17. Flipper –

    Definitely sounds like she’s not happy. She’s probably not happy with herself and that’s why it comes out in everything. I’m assuming she was not like this when you guys first met. What was she like when she was really attractive to you?

  18. Random Angeleno says:

    Regarding Athol’s reader: He’s being played into her frame. He needs to up his MAP, carry it through *all* the steps. Don’t cheat but do destabilize the relationship. And be prepared to lose the marriage.

  19. While I generally agree with Athol’s assessment, I would also caution those of you currently in this position that it can be a passing thing, part of the development of the relationship, and one that will ultimately fade as better communication and better understanding arise.

    Or it can just be a tall stack of pure hell with a side of anguish.

    There was a point where a woman tried to hate me with her vagina. This was in my Blue Pill days, but I still wasn’t stupid. The first time I took what she offered without comment. The second time — which was far worse — I tried to joke about her discomfort and lack of eagerness, which didn’t earn me any brownie points at all. The third time, about three minutes into the lackluster experience, I stopped and pulled out.

    “What’s wrong?” she demanded. “I thought this is what you wanted?” in mocking tones.

    I sighed and rolled over. “No, I wanted a freaking decent girlfriend who knew the first thing about how to fuck. This isn’t sex. This isn’t even masturbation. And if this is what you think of me and our relationship, then it’s time to re-evaluate. I’m done talking about it, I’m going to think about it tomorrow, and in the mean time don’t even fucking talk to me.” I didn’t raise my voice, I didn’t call her names, I merely challenged her sexual ability. I didn’t make it personal about any other issue. And more importantly, I stuck with it. She tried to engage and was rebuffed. She tried to argue and got silence. She tried to make a scene (difficult to do in a bedroom with no audience) and I ignored her.

    The next day I dropped the temperature about thirty degrees and for a solid week we spoke maybe three words to each other. After a week, she started to squirm and made an overture, which I rebuffed. She tried asking me to “be reasonable” and “just talk to me”, and I walked away. She tried to get our mutual friends involved (they were smarter than that) and use other sorts of leverage to raise the temperature . . . but when it came down to it, she couldn’t really complain that I was being a dick because she sucked in bed, because that would be quite embarrassing. I had established a certain bar for sexual response under which I declined to go. There would be no more hating me with her vagina.

    And once her vagina had no more power over me, the rest of the relationship opened up. “Wanna watch TV tonight?” became “Will you please watch TV with me tonight? I miss you!”. The longer the temperature stayed low and the silence stony, the more she squirmed. And every time she would try to talk about “the night”, her recollection got softer and softer. In her mind, her Hamster had taken it from Angry Vagina Sex to Sweetly Submissive Sex That He Refused, and every time she tried to frame it in that way I strongly corrected her . . . until she actually apologized for being “that way”. By that time, however, I was already good and pissed and was on a roll.

    Of course within three weeks (right on time for ovulation) she got a whole lot more repentant. She also tried the “flirt with other dudes” approach and tried to get me jealous — and after a particularly horrid, drunken attempt in which she actually kissed another dude, kinda, to piss me off, I just looked at her blankly and said, “sure, but what is he going to say when he actually sleeps with you and has an experience like I’ve had?” and walked off.

    I was cruel . . . but then, so had she been. We were young. But the point is, once I made her feel utterly shitty about what she had done by holding her accountable — not for her emotions, because its not my place to regulate how she feels, even if she thought it was — but for her technical experience, that hit her in her already tender self-esteem. And since my cold front looked (to her) an awful lot like a Preparation To Exit, that got her Hamster spinning in a different direction all-together. The result was another year-and-a-half before we ended up breaking up on an unrelated matter — but a year and a half in which my one-time invocation of her sexual insecurities was enough to not only keep her from ever hating me with her vagina again, but reinforce the fact that — with an Ironwood, at least — my sexual expectations were far beyond the “lie back and think of England” stage.

    Just a suggestion. This isn’t necessarily an insurmountable obstacle. But if you try the Deep Freeze with thinly-disguised contempt for a few weeks, you will probably find out the answer to the “should I bail or not?” question.

    Good luck!

  20. FeralFelis says:

    @Ian-
    Just curious; once you have experienced (or was it feigning) contempt, how do you then re-develop affection and/or (presumably?) love for the same person?
    One of the reaons I’m curious is because I think my last relationship was with someone who had BPD and once he grew to hate the way I tilted my head back and laughed out loud (he got kind of negatively obsessed with my giggles and laughter, even if they were appropriate to the situation), he was never really able to feel full affection for me again.

  21. Flipper –

    Dang, you described the way my wife was a few years ago. Major depression. Nothing was right in the world. Things eventually improved, she came out of it but dipped back in every now and then. Sex was infrequent but pretty good whenever we did.

    Low and behold the red pill! Started running the MAP and decided I didn’t need her to make me happy. Don’t LET her suck the fun out of anything. You INJECT the fun. She doesn’t want to go to the movies? Then stay home while I take the kids! When you come home, make sure she sees what a good time you had. You can lead her out of the darkness by being positive and showing that her blues have absolutely no effect on you! Since I started the MAP my mood has improved drastically which has caused her mood to also improve. Sure, there are times when she’s down but most of the time I’m up, and she usually follows.

    If she stays stuck in the darkness well then shit, that’s all on her and not on you. Be your own man but be a good man. Have fun and enjoy your life. Don’t let the first mate drag you down. Ignore the party pooper.

  22. FeralFelis says:

    I believe this poster was meant to provide a political statement, but it also occurs to me that it is the PERFECT poster for those trapped by Oneitis.

    I can’t figure out how to make a live link (or do italics, or quote…I’m not normally technically challenges, but this has me flummoxed).

    http://humoresyamores.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/the-beginning-of-dissent/

  23. “Just curious; once you have experienced (or was it feigning) contempt, how do you then re-develop affection and/or (presumably?) love for the same person?”

    It ain’t easy.

    In a lot of ways, you have to start the relationship over, almost from scratch. Once this kind of impasse has been reached, then one or the other of you has to make an acceptable overture — and if enough overtures are made and refused, usually the one taking the initiative takes the initiative to start seeing other people. So there is a danger to permanent or long-term intransigence.

    When I say “start over”, I mean re-focusing on those primary causes for you being together to begin with. But if he’s grown to hate the sound of your voice . . . yeah, that’s going to be a tough one to overcome.

    Good luck!

  24. You should read Roissy’s blog. He writes a post about how women subconsciously sabotage the relationship when they feel you are beneath them and have gone too far beta. I think the post is on a girl texting her ex boyfriend. The effect isn’t the issue, it’s the cause. It’s really enlightening, because what he writes is pretty much what i have experienced to a “T” and it’s very similar to what this lady is doing. When Athol writes about “the Scorched Earth Strategy” he has nailed the hammer to the head. Totally spot on. She is destroying the relationship and at the same time trying to feed her rationalization hamster. The only way you beat that game is to not play it. You utterly and totally withdraw and start looking for new prospects. The only way to save it is Dread on steroids. You know you’re making progress when she starts showing up in lingerie and with a wet pussy begging you to have sex. Until that point has arrived…..turn up the dread knob and withdrawal. This deal could take months to have any effect.

    Here is the link:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/girlfriend-talks-too-much-about-her-exes/

    Here is the blurb that nails the issue:

    Talking about exes is a very female oriented manipulative tactic designed to instigate relationship war, and thus feed her rationalization hamster. “Oh, I was great to him, but then he just started getting all jealous and possessive. So I dumped him. What’s that? Texting exes? I don’t remember doing that. Anyhow, there’s nothing wrong with keeping in touch with old friends. Don’t be a creeper.”

    This sort of insidious bullshit is what women do when they want to express disapproval about their man but lack the balls to say so outright. A woman’s coin of the realm is subterfuge and sabotage. They have mastered these arts over millennia to compensate for their weaker physical strength. Don’t ever let a feminist dope or manboobed blubberboy who hasn’t seen vagina since his mother’s birth canal tell you otherwise. In the deception and manipulation sweepstakes, women are furlongs ahead of men.

  25. practicallyperfect says:

    Flipper,
    New to this site and the manosphere, so I hope I don’t trample on any rules and beg everyones forgivness ahead of time if I do.
    Your discription of your wife reminded me of myself. Several years ago I was doing all the things your wife is doing, and while it may be depression it could also be an inner conflict between her true nature and what the feminist world expects the role of women to be today. For me and perhaps for your wife it may be a trust issue. Hoping not to get long let me explain my trust issue and where it came from.
    I didn’t feel like I was of any value as a child and had to primarily look out for myself from a young age. Lets just say my home life was rough. But my independence and self reliance was a source of pride for me, and for a female child growing up in the 70’s and 80’s I was well on the way to becoming what every feminist wanted me to be. The down side to that is what those influences in my life taught me; the only way I was ever going to be happy was to be in control of everything in my life. I didn’t trust anyone for anything and became very controlling, cold and domineering. I didn’t trust anyone to meet my needs emotionally or physically because no one ever had but that was okay wasn’t it, because women don’t need men, right? I was a woman and here to roar!
    What I did was used feminist ideology to cover up and bury the pain of a sad childhood and most of all a true submissive nature because it had been ingrained in me through family and society that there was never going to be any one out there for me to trust with my true essence except me.
    How wrong we were. It wasn’t until I did some soul searching and some reading that I came to understand and accept my true nature. I didn’t reveal it to my husband of then 18 years for almost two years because I was afraid to trust him with this very vulnerable part of me. Fearful of what he would think and more importantly could I trust how he would or would not act on the information, so I kept it from him, but in the mean time I saw how for lack of a better discription “ugly” I had become, not only physically but also mentally. There was no joy in life for him our child or myself. I was afraid what his response would be. Would he be appalled or would he be the first person who would really want the real me. When I finally revealed to him my new understanding of myself it was a terrifying challenge for both of us. Since then we’ve been making slow deliberate headway and for the first time in my life I am free to embrace and be that loving woman I was meant to be and always wanted to be. Trust came when he didn’t shy away and took control. He became the man and I finally got to become a women.
    So take control Flipper.
    Hold her, then tell her its okay she can let go and trust you, you’ve got it from here.

    practicallyperfect

  26. In the comments section of a previous post, one commenter suggested dividing “duty sex” (as we were calling it then) into two categories. After reading this, I’m thinking there might be three distinct, useful categories:

    “Gift Sex”

    This is what Athol and Jennifer talk about when they say it’s okay to have sex sometimes even when she’s not in the mood to try for an orgasm. She is active and engaged and enjoying the fact that she is able to give her man pleasure. There is little or no physical discomfort for her and there may be some sexual pleasure even if no orgasm is sought or desired. This sort of sex is to be enjoyed in the spirit it is offered.

    “Duty / Maintenance Sex”

    She may be consciously trying to provide Gift Sex; she may even think that’s what she’s doing, but for whatever reason, it’s not working. Maybe she is not engaged enough in the process; maybe her body is not cooperating. Maybe her man has not done a good enough job turning her on / attracting her / whatever. Maybe she honestly thought she was up for it and it turns out she really is just too tired to get into it enough for it to be enjoyable for either partner. There is likely to be a greater or lesser degree of physical discomfort involved. This is to be tolerated when it happens and not worried about unless it begins to constitute a majority of the sex you’re getting.

    “Vagina Hatred Sex”

    She is consciously trying to make this unpleasant for you (and, incidentally, herself). Athol already described this situation and how to deal with it better than I could.

  27. Flipper says:

    Great posting Ben. I’d put my wife generally in the Duty/Maintenance even if she uses her vibrator to come during the sex. It generally needs to be her choice of position and time. And if she comes first, you’d swear she looks at her watch. And no kink either….you know because the kids might wake up if I came all over her tits or ass…lol.

  28. Flipper says:

    On the other hand, she does cut loose a little bit if we go out of town. In a motel she’s usually a little more open to the cherry on top, so to speak.

  29. Ben – i really like the term “gift sex” so much more clear!

  30. The times I have wanted to use the hate sex defense have been in two categories:
    1) He has done something really awful (cheating, EA, really heinous fight) and I don’t want to do anything that makes him think I have forgiven him, or make it seem like I have already gotten over it. Basically, I’m trying to punish him for whatever he did.
    2) The relationship is really, seriously on the rocks and I am not willing to bond myself to him further until I know he’s not going to walk out tomorrow. This is less angry and more withdrawn, for self-preservation.

  31. To me Duty Sex is a problem because it’s not just a matter of tiredness or something like that. It’s reluctance. It’s an attitude where she actually doesn’t want to have sex with you. It’s not to the level where she actively dislikes you (hates you with her vagina), but it’s a distinct disinterest. Along with that disinterest is the fact that this is probably the only sex you’re getting, when you get any at all.

    Consistent Duty Sex is demeaning, because it takes the most intimate connection you can share—not to mention something that should be fun—and turns it into a mechanical process. It’s like being excited for a gift and then finding out it’s just a new tie. Or planning a night out with your pals only to have everyone want to see Sex And The City.

  32. John Que Smith says:

    It’s over. Get out as cheaply as you can, move on. 30-40 years of that and you’ll want to shoot yourself.

  33. practicallyperfect says:

    Please pull my earlier post. I’m not sure its suitable for this site.
    Sorry for the inconvenience.

  34. Where to start?

    One thing I didnt say was she is capable of a good sexual performance. I know she is, and she knows I know she is. It isn’t that she has no interest in learning to make a good cup of coffee. She already knows how, she is going out of her way not to, and making sure I know she is.

    I think this is about power not sex. She has read the book (parts of it at least). I think she wants to prove that its all a pissant little trick that works on weak women but that she can “beat it” and show that shes too clever to fall for the stuff. She doesn’t buy the idea of sexually yielding at all.

    I can’t see a way to win at this.

  35. Flipper says:

    @chimpy.

    Well, you win by becoming the best man you can be. If that’s pissant to her, then you move forward as a single man….and find a woman who is compatible with you. As hot as I might get, there is no way I’m going to bone Kate Beckinsale. I know I can become hot enough to bone 25 year old single moms though. And if they view me as a hypergamistic opportunity, they’ll screw me as if they are screwing upwards. Does that make sense?

  36. Flipper says:

    Oneitis is your biggest problem… I know because I have the same affliction.

  37. If alls I want to do is fuck, I might as well just pay for it. I dont want to poke single mums because they think Im some sort of opportunity, and so find myself another woman who once she has got me stitches it back up again. Or a series of these. I just cant be fucking bothered with that kind of old crap.

    Alls this is about is her not wanting to buy into the idea that by being a better man, her sexual attraction for me might rise. Way she sees it, if that happens, it makes her mindless and willless, not a thinking individual.

    What its like is that she knows about Game, and so reverse-games it on purpose, to prove shes “above” that kind of thing. Try a mind prick on her and she will ties a knot in it, or pull it out by the roots.

  38. Anonymous says:

    One thing I read on a different blog was that women crave attention as much as men crave sex. Ian’s story is the perfect example. As soon as he went icy cold, she started acting the same way most guys act when they get rejected for sex.

    What most men do is sit and listen to their woman go on and on about something in the hope that they’ll get some sex afterwards as a reward. What you’re doing is giving her what she wants and there’s no reason for her to reciprocate. So flip the script on her. If she gives you sex, you start listening to her. If she refuses sex, start ignoring her. Do a push/pull by listening for a minute. Then as she starts getting worked up, excuse yourself to do something else. Stop texting. Go to bed early. Don’t give her a kiss when you leave or come home. Alpha Persona mentioned that his high Alpha grandfather stopped talking to his mother for 3 weeks when she was acting unreasonable.

    But don’t do it with bitterness. Just act like nothing is wrong except that you’re not paying as much attention to them. Keep smiling. Do something fun for yourself. Go see that Avengers movie without her. If you don’t already, learn to cook (because she might try to starve you into submission). For most guys, doing something in silence is pretty normal, so this won’t be too hard. After a few days, she’ll start warming up again. As she warms up, so do you. But start escalating, so that she knows your attention isn’t free. If she gives you the cold shoulder, start ignoring again. In my blue pill days, I would never believe women crave this so much. It seems so trivial to just sit there and listen. But having tried it and seeing the results, it is absolutely true.

  39. I hate you with my vagina sex is the act of a woman who is playing the martyr. If you have sex with her you’re living up to her depiction of you as a rapist and her the innocent saint who is forced to comply with your filthy lusts. Don’t let her drag you into that game.

  40. @Chimpy:

    Oof. Might have been a mistake to show her the book (assuming it would you that did so). There’s a lot of stuff in there that, written primarily for a male audience as it is, could be taken the wrong way when read by a female audience that’s predisposed against it. Oh, well. Spilled milk and all that.

    As I understand it, Game doesn’t work because women are mindless: it works because on some level, they WANT it to work. It’s not about forcing or tricking them into finding you attractive, it’s about becoming the most attractive man you can be in and of yourself and letting the rest take its course because what sane woman DOESN’T want to be with the most attractive man possible? The caveat there is the qualifier, “what SANE woman.” There’s no sense trying to cater to someone who’s actively working against her own self-interest.

    “I can’t see a way to win at this.”

    To paraphrase War Games, sometimes the only way to win is not to play. If I’m playing poker and I’m holding 7-2 offsuit and the other guy is holding pocket kings, I could try and convince him that I have aces and bluff him into folding… but 99% of the time, the smarter move is to fold myself and look for a better hand next time. Or in this case, a better woman who’s willing to meet you halfway.

    Whichever way you play it, good luck, man.

  41. There’s something else not yet discussed that might explain why a woman is only giving gift/duty sex: Her man might not be turning her on.
    My ex could bring me to the Big O any time he wanted to only he usually didn’t bother. Well, he considered sex a failure if I didn’t orgasm, but he wasn’t concerned about *me*, just that my chimes got rung. “Did you come? Yes? Good. Goodnight.” He used the exact same method each time. No variations, no experiments. “I know this works and 50% of the time I try anything else it fails, so why bother.” It wasn’t wham-bam, thank you mam, but it ALWAYS was the same.
    Did I lose interest? You bet I did! Did he get my best efforts? If he didn’t give me his best, why should I put myself out for him. I got better action from my hand. I ended up turning him down about half the time, and doing duty sex the other half. No vagina hatred, just not a lot of effort.
    If he had shown even a tiny bit of caring, a little concern for my mind and heart, and an understanding of Athol’s 70%/30% rule. we probably wouldn’t have gotten divorced.

  42. enlightened1 says:

    You’re spending too much time analyzing this. Any woman who gets “upset” that her man is getting more attractive and TRYING to improve has some incalculable control issues. So sorry Chimpy. The above advice to just continue being the best man you can be is good. You cannot join her game and “control” her into the right response. You can do everything right and well and she still has a choice. There isn’t some magic combination of behavior that will elicit the right response that you want that will fix everything. All this stuff should dramatically increase the odds of success but she still has a choice. So do you.

  43. enlightened1 says:

    Btw Chimpy, when I say “you’re spending too much time analyzing this,” that’s coming from someone who spent over 15 years analyzing this!! And, it was a no brainer to everyone around me!! LOL! But I sound decisive now!! Don’t make that mistake! You got a life to live man, and you’re supposed to be enjoying it!!

  44. At some point couples need to stop the war, what with lobbing bombs at each other trying to cause damage and “win.” You win NOTHING by making each other hate the other, whether aggressively by arguing or passively by duty sex/hateful vagina sex.

    So if no one wants to call a truce or time out, then it becomes this resentment-fest of who will be able to drive the other into filing for divorce first. If you have kids, I don’t see how prolonging the inevitable will do anything but drive the kids out of their own home to spend peaceful time at their friends’ houses.

    Seriously: separate for a few months. It is very possible that she hates you but is in the very precarious position of not making enough money or having enough courage to strike out on her own, so she’s forcing you to comply with her new “roommate” rules. There are so many men out there that have been completely used for money or babies, where she was never into him at all. A trial separation for a cool-down period should make it clear whether or not you’re a victim of a marriage con game or if there’s just some bad kinks that need to be ironed out.

  45. Ben, I bought the book as a paper copy (its more portable that way, as my workplace has “issues” with personal IT kit), and since it isnt exactly pocket size, she saw it.

    I can only think she read some of it, didn’t like it (felt threatened or insulted by it) so went all out to actively reverse-plan everything in it, just to prove that it isn’t as obvious as Athol makes it sound.

    I don’t think she hates me. I think she hates what Athol has wrote and what she thinks is his view of women and by reflection my view too. She wants to prove it doenst work and that women are smart enough to know when they are being played with and to piss on your bonfire.

    I can make her orgasm. I have don e it a lot. She wont let me make her orgasm now. She wont let me do stuff she knows will work. Just lay there like a sack of shit while I pump away.

  46. horseman says:

    feral
    Im never advocating an EMA. they are hurtful and destructive to all. im just pointing out the high possibility of thhe temptation. i would bail immediately but if there are kids financial restraints etc then some have to stay. just be aware of the dangers and make an informed decision. i am in that but have a specific exit strategy in play waiting for certain key events to make t doable.
    what i dont get are those who choose to stay if its that bad. learn to be alone its not that bad and even if its a one in hundred chance of a new relationship its still better than one jn ZERO of this type of relationship improving.

  47. horseman says:

    people. is this about sex or power? flipper and chimp ask yourself “who are you alone yourself and nameless? does that person really want this SO? do you want to spend your one shot at this life like tbis? can you do what needs to be done either stay or go. only you can answer that. what she does is irrelevant to that decision. make it wait for it and live for that eventuality.
    in either case good luck and as you can see from.all.of us here you are not alone.
    of

  48. Its about power. Its about proving me and Athol wrong. End of.

  49. Chimpy:

    How much have you talked to her about this? Has she told you that this is why she’s acting unreceptive in bed, or is this an assumption on your part? Not everyone who reads Marx is a socialist, and not everybody who reads Athol’s book has to agree with 100% of what he says or apply 100% of what he says to their own situation, even if they find enough useful in his view of sex and marriage to follow some of his advice.

    If communication between the two of you has broken down as completely as your posts here would seem to indicate, it may be too late for this, but if her anger at you is based on what she thinks you’re doing based on a partial read of Athol’s book, if you haven’t already, it certainly couldn’t hurt to sit down and say, “Look, here’s what the book says. These are the parts I’ve taken to heart; these are the parts I have some problems with; these are the parts that I don’t think apply to our situation at all.”

    At least that way you’d be working from the same set of facts, instead of you guessing what she’s feeling about what she thinks you think you’re doing.

  50. MCM said
    “Flipper –
    Dang, you described the way my wife was a few years ago. Major depression. Nothing was right in the world. Things eventually improved, she came out of it but dipped back in every now and then. Sex was infrequent but pretty good whenever we did.
    Low and behold the red pill!”

    This described me as well. I was always so angry, apparently didn’t really smile or laugh.
    Changes began within our relationship but didn’t know exactly what. This was before we knew it was called red pill. Then found some books, mainly MMSL and learned the reason’s why and what else was needed.

    The way I see it now and understand it, Dave was pretty beta and I saw apathy. I figured if things didn’t bother him, he didn’t care, therefore why should I. Following MAP he began caring enough to make changes. We each concentrate on changes to ourselves and our relationship gets the benefits as well. It’s been pretty much a play off each other. I still battle depression at times, but I am more proactive about it and I push myself. I look in the mirror and I can find good things to focus on and like what I see. I tend to see the world differently. Dave tells me often that I now have a real smile, and he tells me that he loves to hear me laugh since he didn’t hear it before.

    We’ve gotten involved in mutual interests, some I had to get involved in because he was pretty much going to do it whether I did or not, so I went with him. I am much more confident in myself and comfortable with my body that I am not only willing to have sex, but I enjoy it (which was not so before) and my drive has increased.

    I have to admit that in the beginning I had the fear that with all the changes that I would lose him, that he would just get tired of our life or improve beyond me and leave. Therefore I wasn’t sure I wanted the changes at all. The fear hung over me like a dark cloud. Change is difficult, I knew we needed it, but not sure how the outcome would be. Once you begin to see the positive rewards, it gets a little easier to embrace.

  51. JCclimber says:

    @Chimpy: Here is part of your problem. She sees you reading a TEXTBOOK to fix HER. So you can get more sex. Of course any modern American woman steeped since childbirth in feminist dogma is going to go ballistic over this type of thing.

    You can try sitting down with her for 2 minutes and going over the following points.
    1) You still love her and made a commitment to the marriage
    2) You’re trying some changes, including some ideas you got from Athol’s book to improve yourself
    3) She is welcome to enjoy the changes and work with you on making the relationship the best it can be
    4) You’re still going to make the changes whether step 3 happens, or not

    Part of the problem is that you’ve got oneitis. You’re too emotionally invested in your marriage partner. You’ve allowed her behaviors and opinions to count too much in your life. Of course they count, but you’ve let it go too far and you’re not your own man anymore. If you were a Christian, I’d say you’re breaking the Commandment “Thou shalt not have any other gods before Me”.

  52. JCclimber says:

    @ Chimpy
    One other thing, I said a 2 minute discussion, that should be enough time to go through those 4 points. End. of. discussion. No further talk about her feelings, what is wrong with the relationship, how much she hates that book, etc……
    These are the facts (they are true, right?)
    Letting her (or yourself) add ANY other elements to this discussion means you allowed the frame to change. Expect her to be angry. Expect emotional outbursts. And have an expectation of yourself to be a rock in the storm, end the discussion on your original terms. Tell her to think about it and set a time 4 to 7 days later for it to be discussed again. Tell her if she wants to talk about it before then, to pick up her phone and start dialing.

  53. Z – “There’s something else not yet discussed that might explain why a woman is only giving gift/duty sex: Her man might not be turning her on.”

    I thought that’s what this whole site was all about. :)

    Chimpy –

    Decide to enjoy sex with her anyway. If she can’t spoil your mood, she’ll give up eventually. JCclimber’s points are worth trying, too. She might just think you are trying to manipulate her—and who likes that? Explain that it’s not any more manipulative than doing anything that she might respond to, like cooking dinner for her or buying her something nice. Explain that you’re doing this to learn how to do your best towards having the best relationship posible and that sex is one aspect of your relationship. And like I said first, enjoy sex with her anyway, regardless of how she responds. If she brings you down, she wins. Don’t let her.

  54. Flipper says:

    You know what is scary to me as I approach 40? That sometimes, I don’t even give a rip if she wants to fuck or not. Like just a little while ago, she started preemptively with the tired bullcrap and I really didn’t even care. I’ve gone from anger to apathy in a sense. I made a half-hearted play at her but I really didn’t care if she said yes or no.

  55. Flipper,
    If it might be of some encouragement, Dave and I are 46 and 49 and things didn’t change for us until about two years ago or so. It’s never been this good and it’s only been getting better.

  56. pdwalker says:

    Flipper,

    And that’s how you want to live your life?

    If that’s not a sign that you need a change, any change, you might as well bury yourself now as you’re already dead.

    Or run the MAP, tell her what you are doing and why and leave the rest up to her. She can either make her changes, or you bail and start a life free from the millstone around your neck that will drown you otherwise.

  57. @Flipper: I’m going to be really blunt. Are you not able to attract any other women? There’s a whole ocean of fish out there looking for love and definitely wanting to spend it with a great man (you) that will make them super-happy.

    Your wife is NOT playing hard-to-get. Seriously. Stop chasing her. You lost, she “won,” so why not shake hands, swallow your pride, and get yourself into a lawyer’s office? At least at this point you can make an educated decision about money and joint custody arrangements. This part of accepting that your wife is not attracted to you and has no interest in having quality sex with you is Athol’s fork in the road, where it’s decision time. Shit or get off the pot.

  58. Ben said: How much have you talked to her about this? Has she told you that this is why she’s acting unreceptive in bed, or is this an assumption on your part?
    She has said that she thinks it’s a silly little kiddie game book that is too stupid to work on an intelligent woman with some self-esteem. That if the book suggests playing mind games to get your own way, that you have to expect the other person to play mind games back at you, and if you arent clever enough to win, tough shit.

    JCclimber said: She sees you reading a TEXTBOOK to fix HER. So you can get more sex. Of course any modern American woman steeped since childbirth in feminist dogma is going to go ballistic over this type of thing.

    At a certain level, it does read that way. She’s British, so she is stubborn too.
    You can try sitting down with her for 2 minutes and going over the following points.
    1) You still love her and made a commitment to the marriage
    2) You’re trying some changes, including some ideas you got from Athol’s book to improve yourself
    3) She is welcome to enjoy the changes and work with you on making the relationship the best it can be
    4) You’re still going to make the changes whether step 3 happens, or not

    Been there, done that. I reckon she thinks she can hang on longer than I can. As for your second bit. She will definitely see an unwillingness to discuss as proving that shes right, that its a mind game scam.

    Mark said: Decide to enjoy sex with her anyway. If she can’t spoil your mood, she’ll give up eventually. She might just think you are trying to manipulate her—and who likes that? ,

    She can carry on not enjoying hersrlf for ever. And beyond a certain point, the lip chewing and eye rolling are just a turnoff. She thinks its all about manipulating her, and that even if she would enjoy the result she wont be manipulated by anyone about anything
    I could walk out and win any time I feel like it, but if we are chucking quotes about, I reckon Id be like Pyrrus of Epirus “one more such victory would utterly ruin me”

  59. @Chimpy: It’s a bit disturbing what passes for marriage these days.

    War: Who can dominate and control decisions and destroy the other’s will to just be themselves VS. Best friends who want to love each other and make each other happy.

    I do appreciate this website for the sheer honesty of men, as unreasonable and frustrated as they get. But seriously, your wife is not the only woman out there. Sometimes we marry the wrong person and for the wrong reasons. Marriage is not meant to be a prison life sentence.

  60. Does she think women wearing makeup is manipulative too? Because that is based on the same type of science that game is. Only difference is men are attracted differently.

  61. Michael says:

    @Chimpy,
    Sounds like your wife is a feminist, approaching the wall, and probably loosing look-points by the year. Sounds like you’re a good enough person to blame. Ask her if she wants a divorce and see what she says. Anything other than no, divorce her. How many heartbeats do you have left? What will you do with them?

  62. John Q Galt says:

    Athol, where you’re off the mark is that SHE ALREADY OWNS YOUR ASS. I have looked into divorce, and she would be able to move the kids out of state without my consent, poison their minds against me, and collect alimony for 6 months per year we were married – to the tune of 40% of my salary.

    Unless you have brilliant suggestions, I’m stuck in hell until my kids are grown and I can escape to Mexico or something. Or put a load of 00-Buck through my skull. Both of which are appealing.

  63. enlightened1 says:

    Galt~
    Seriously!!! She does not OWN YOUR ASS! What state is this?? Please make sure you are listening to someone reliable. I hear this fear stuff all the time. It’s a favorite past time to talk about how screwed people got in their divorce just to scare the crap out of the next guy. A form of peacocking in reverse. And no one can poison kids minds against their Dad if they have a relationship with you; and if they don’t have a relationship and you want one then get cracking and have one! Kids are remarkably perceptive. Hold off on the short barreled shotgun. There is life after this and it gets good.

  64. John Q Galt says:

    Colorado.

  65. John Q Galt says:

    And I got the 40% figure from my divorce attorney. More worried about the kids than anything else – do you have kids, enlightened? Even net of the 40%, I make well more than the average.

  66. enlightened1 says:

    Yes, 4 children. Alimony is up to the discretion of the court and not close to a “given” in Colorado. Being willing and interested in the support of your children goes a long way.Keep it clean and take the high road. Your children will benefit and you will come out smelling like a rose later if you do. Think long term. If your wife has worked in the past she will be assigned a percentage of support and you will be too. Possibly 40% but not permanently 40% because your wife should be working towards working outside the home if she is not already. I would be actively working toward negotiating for a scale where the spousal support (if there is any) is decreased as in states that are called “rehabilitation” states- most are going that direction. If it is possible to reason with wife explain that attorneys make more money if you argue a lot and it’s taking it out of the children’s mouth. Realize attorneys are not even a little bit creative, but judges frequently are. Give yourself 2 years after the gavel to adjust, mine took more. I focused on trying to keep it stable for the kids and let them know how much they were loved. You will get through this and you will get your peace back.

  67. enlightened1 says:

    One other thing; keep in mind the children have been observing really bad behavior. You’ve effectively been modeling to them how NOT to have a functional relationship. Keep talking to them about choices and consequences. Divorce is a consequence of people NOT actively loving each other. But you can’t MAKE somebody love you no matter how hard you try. Kids get this. I think my own children have an edge over their peers in this regard.One day if you keep loving them and supporting them and showing respect to their mother they will thank you for the peace and showing them that relationships have standards of behavior and you respected yourself and loved them enough to require that.
    Thank God this is at the end of a post that’s a few days old or I would get the heavy artillery for that last statement from the “duty and obligation” crowd!

  68. John Q Galt says:

    Colorado isn’t a “Rehabilitation” state – she does not have to ever get off her ass. But knowing her, I believe she will. LIke I said before, she is, in fact, a good woman. I’ve been advised to push for a finite term in the negotiation.

    Thanks for the advice. What you say rings true to me.

  69. Statistically, divorce hurts kids more than dysfunctional marriages, even when your new marriage is stable and the first one was very unstable. These stats are consistent across the board.

    Women’s perspectives of divorce are useless for men, since men get absolutely reamed, while women get constant preference. Know what you’re getting into. You could start HERE.

  70. enlightened1 says:

    Gault,
    Colorado isn’t a rehab state but neither is it an alimony state. They are kinda riding the wire on this right now. Good plan to push for a finite term.

    There is no evidence that “divorce hurts kids more than dysfunctional marriages.” Simply none. There are no studies citing dysfunctional families (perspectives of children) and divorced happy or even unhappy families (perspectives of children). None. Yes, children in divorced homes have financial disadvantages and their lives have lost something. Some of the things they’ve lost are good things, some are bad. And yes, divorce bites.And yes, children would rather have 2 biological parents raising them. Duh. But sometimes that’s not possible. But no, the women does not always get constant preference and the men get reamed. Yes, it happens and yes it also happens that the women get reamed too. Case by case. Marks comments designed to polarize men and women and make you afraid benefit only the lawyers.

  71. enlightened1, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about whatsoever. But, I have better thing to do than argue with people online.

  72. some guy says:

    @practicallyperfect
    I actually found your post very helpful as it seems your background is almost identical to my wife’s. I don’t know if she feels the same way but it gives me a different possible perspective as we work through things. So even if the post is pulled as you requested, I appreciated it! (And I think as you read through some of the older posts on this site it is actually quite appropriate.)

  73. LovelyLauren says:

    No woman likes to feel like you are playing games with her to get more sex, even if you are. If I’m not in the mood, my husband will talk me into it. I know what he’s doing (and it works) but I don’t like feeling like I’m being “gamed.”

    That being said, Chimpy, if she feels like she’s “above it” and making sex horrible, she’s doesn’t really get the “red pill” at all. I sometimes disagree with “game”philosophy, but my understanding is that it’s a way for both men and women to get the best behavior, and consequently, the best sex and relationship out of their partner. Even if it involves a little manipulation, is that really a bad thing? And can you explain that to her? Framing things in terms of “improving your relationship”(which includes reasonably good sex) might go a long way if she feels like this is all a manipulative scheme.

    I mean, I totally get what Athol is talking about and I consider myself a very independent and yes, feminist woman. Doesn’t mean I don’t like it when my husband spanks me.

    Maybe someone said this upthread, but is there a physical/emotional reason she might not want any sex? I only ask because I had a yeast infection for literally a year (nothing worked to fix it) and it made sex miserable. It was easier to say no than to discuss how physically awful is was for me.

  74. Maybe someone said this upthread, but is there a physical/emotional reason she might not want any sex? I only ask because I had a yeast infection for literally a year (nothing worked to fix it) and it made sex miserable. It was easier to say no than to discuss how physically awful is was for me.

    If I have to guess I would say control issues probably underlying something deeper, like past abuse. Purposely sabotaging their sex life just to proof a point sounds too extreme and self harmful for a mere “I’m better than to be gamed” I will say MAP, and Ultimatum that includes seeing a counselor and find out what is wrong with her, and something is deeply wrong, IMO, YMMV.

  75. “Maybe someone said this upthread, but is there a physical/emotional reason she might not want any sex? I only ask because I had a yeast infection for literally a year (nothing worked to fix it) and it made sex miserable. It was easier to say no than to discuss how physically awful is was for me.”

    I can see why you would say this, but from the man’s perspective, it would be MUCH better to hear that there’s a simple, physical explanation for the lack of interest (response: up the Beta to help her know that I understand that it’s not her fault and don’t blame her) than have to wonder what the hell I’m doing wrong (response: anger, frustration, resentment).

    Lack of communication never helped anyone, but it can hurt. A lot.

Trackbacks

  1. […] Originally Posted by Thundarr What you call duty sex could be called because I love you sex. She doesn't have to love sex. Actions speak louder than words so where's the rub. It depends on what the duty sex is. Some women will happily provide sex when they're not in the mood as part of their contribution to the marriage and as a way to connect with their husbands. And some women will hate you with their vaginas. When She Hates You With Her Vagina | Married Man Sex Life […]

  2. At Impasse says:

    […] You're really in a no-win situation. If your wife offers sex and you decline, then you're giving her exactly what she wants. However, if you accept, you're weak for accepting pity sex because you have no other option. It's heads she wins, tails you lose. Athol Kay called it When She Hates You With Her Vagina | Married Man Sex Life […]

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