Money and Dating Standards for Men and Women

From Yahoo News…

Overall, 75 percent of women said they would be unlikely to date an unemployed man, with 33 percent saying no outright. Another 42 percent of women answered maybe when asked about the possibility of dating an unemployed man. That answer, however, came with the stipulation that those women would not want to spend a lot of time in the relationship if the man did not have a plan in place. Just 21 percent of women said they would date an unemployed man.

On the other hand, the prospect of dating an unemployed woman was not a problem for nearly two-thirds of men. In fact, 19 percent of men said they had no reservations and 46 percent of men said they were positive they would date an unemployed woman.

And now a translation into plain English…

Overall, 75 percent of women said the chances of them dating an unemployed man ranged from “slim” to “none”, with 33 percent of the women bursting into open laughter at the question. The other 42 percent of women asked for clarification of what exactly the questioner meant by “dating”, when asked about the possibility of dating an unemployed man. Their follow up answer in the affirmative however came with the stipulation that those women would only consider it if the guy was “really hot looking” and he was never to call their cell phones directly. Just 21 percent of women said they would date an unemployed man, but he had to have food at his apartment.

On the other hand, the prospect of dating an unemployed woman was not a problem for nearly two-thirds of men. In fact, 19 percent of men said they were totally desperate for any form of sexual contact and 46 percent of men said that when they were answering the questionnaire they had a chubby.

It all seems pretty black and white as to how the sexes approach the Sexual Marketplace doesn’t it. Money matters, guys. If you have a way to make more of it, more is typically better than less.

Plus if you’re getting into a dating situation with any hope of turning it into a LTR or marriage, you may want to go the SAHM route eventually. But she should at least have some sort of a job now. I mean if she was good enough to hook up with when she had no income, you pretty much set the precedent that you’re cool with pulling money out of your pocket for the remainder of the relationship.

Comments

  1. A lot of the single mature-aged professional men I talk to prefer a lady is financially secure and working. Also, owning a house is important. Most will not date someone who is unemployed and poor. The desperate men (not necessarily successful professionals) consider overseas brides and pretty well anyone that takes an interest. I actually don’t find that much difference between the preferences of men and women in this regard except that women tend to dream of a rich husband while at the same time men actively seek not to be exploited. I think working hard and looking after one’s resources is important for both men and women.

  2. These surveys are funny because people say what they want but it doesn’t coincide with what they end up doing.

  3. Flipper says:

    I wish I could find a way to show my brother this post. He’s got a fiance who doesn’t work, has health issues, and sleeps until 10:00 am every morning while he heads off to work. And now she’s preggo but with her health issues is going to be on bed rest. He’s in for a world of hurt. But if I tell him that, he’s only going to get pissed at me. Oh, and she has three kids already too. Yikes.

  4. As a man, I don’t actually mind if I have to do most of the providing in terms of finances. I will be more than willing to work my ass off if I feel like it’s worth it. What I won’t accept is someone who isn’t putting in the equal amount of effort at home or in the relationship. If I’m out there busting my ass, potentially in multiple jobs, I want her to be equally ambitious. She can be a SAHM, but as Athol has said in the past, she should be that and them some. It’s not a license to sit out the couch and do the minimal amount of work to maintain the house and the marriage. She should have some ambitions and should be planning activities with the children. Maybe she can have a part time job. Once the children are older she should be actively looking to set up in her job or start an education. She should also want to give me what I need (i.e. sex). I’ll give her what she needs if she gives me what I need. That’s a productive relationship and that’s how I define love. It’s equal give and take.

  5. Wow, sorry Flipper, but your brother is screwed, and not in a way he’s gonna enjoy either. She’s gonna use her health issues as an excuse to kill their sex life on the honeymoon, maybe even before. Sounds like she was looking for a meal ticket, and found it in your brother.

    Mention it to him anyway though. Sure he’ll get pissed, but maybe it’ll at least plant the seed in his mind that he’s setting himself up for a lousy marriage. He’s still gonna be stuck with child support though…

  6. Child support sounds like a relatively small price to pay in that situation.

  7. PastorofMuppets says:

    Maybe the only surprise here is that 21 percent of women would date an unemployed guy, even one without a clear plan. Really? Why?
    I suspect that if you switch women for men in this poll and replace “unemployed” with “obese” you’d get very similar results. Let’s face it, in the SMP, unemployed guys are the equivalent of fat chicks.

    That said, I think it boils down to more than just a “more money vs less money” situation, though surely that’s a huge part of it. Fairly or not – and I think it’s fair with some exceptions – the quality of a man is in part judged (by both men and women) by his ability to obtain and hold a job, regardless of that job’s status or salary. Maybe a delivery truck driver isn’t valued as highly as a successful attorney, but I bet he’s judged more favorably than an unemployed dude with a law degree.

  8. FeralFelis says:

    A word about room-mates, which can be a sub-topic of unemployed (presumably if you are unemployed you might not be able to afford your own place. Or, God forbid, you live with your folks (which is different than your folks living with you)). As a disclaimer, I am single and in my 50’s but felt the same when I was in my early 20’s:

    Once a guy is more than a year or two out of college, I expect him to (at a minimum) have an apartment of his own. I don’t care if it’s not fancy and if it’s garage sale furniture. If I can’t come to your place and screw you on your couch or your kitchen table because you have a room-mate, I am not interested. To me, that is WORSE than being unemployed. If you are temporarily unemployed (shit happens) but have the right financial plan into place (VERY Alpha!), you have a 6-12 month cushion of living expenses so unemployed doesn’t mean destitute. But living in someone else’s home is a total turn-off to me.

    For some bizarre reason, the last two guys I’ve dated/almost dated have lived as permanent room-mates in someone elses home (ie, not an emergency situation). It had a major “ick” factor, but the first one convinced me it was because he was living a low-impact lifestyle. I bought it for a while. In hindsight, I see he doesn’t want to grow up and have to take care of his own place. When #2 came along, I was grateful to have learned that and he didnt’ make it to the dating phase.

  9. Peregrine John says:

    Yay Sue Cree Stay. And they say men are shallow.

  10. @Flipper:

    Unemployed, seemingly not looking for work, pregnant, AND with three existing kids (presumably not his)? Even the most diehard Blue Pill “love conquers all!” chanter should be able to see the red flags. If your brother doesn’t see them, I don’t know that there’s anything you can do to make the difference. Sad to say, I think he might have to crash and burn on this one. Nothing teaches a lesson quite like falling on your face.

    @PastorOfMuppets:

    I’d strongly suspect that those 21% of women are either using a very loose definition of “date” (i.e. they’re looking only for a casual short-term relationship with no plans to try to convert into an LTR or marriage) and/or they’re in college where it’s pretty common to live off mommy and daddy or student loans/scholarships for the first few years and/or they have a very low dating market value themselves and are well aware of it and willing to settle.

    I know the economy is crap right now, but if you’re out of school, there’s no excuse for being totally out of a job for more than a month or two max. There are jobs out there. Maybe not the ones you want, but any port in a storm. Being willing to take on a crappy job while you’re searching for something better is a DHV for someone of either gender in my opinion. It shows a willingness to work hard and make sacrifices and not make excuses.

  11. PastorofMuppets says:

    @Feral
    Things may well be very different where you’re from, but in my city an early- to mid- 20something who hasn’t hit the lottery or have wealthy, doting parents has three realistic choices for living arrangements: 1) find a roommate(s) 2) live in a distant suburb or 3) live in a crappy apartment in a crappy neighborhood where robbery and burglary are daily threats.

    Understandably, most choose option 1. The suburbs are a bore in your 20s, being robbed tends to get tiresome after a while and the great majority of young people can’t afford a decent place in a decent neighborhood alone. As such, having a roommate isn’t looked down upon. It’s expected and accepted.
    You, of course, are free not to date people with roommates, but where I come from you’d be severely limiting your prospects that way.
    Now, if you’re talking about guys in their 30s and 40s having roomies, you may be on to something.

  12. @PastorOfMuppets:

    To be fair, if Feral is in her 50s now, she would’ve been in her 20s in the late 70s / early 80s, so things very well may have been different where she was back then.

    Agree with you that nowadays, having a roommate into your late 20s is not uncommon and shouldn’t be an automatic disqualification as long as they’ve got the rest of their house in order.

  13. FeralFelis says:

    Pastor-
    I live in Dallas, where you can get a decent one bedroom apartment in a safe neighborhood for $750 a month. Most room-mate rentals (not friends, a business arrangement) are around $500-650.
    I had mentioned “Once a guy is more than a year or two out of college”; perhaps in your city that should read “once a guy is more than 5-7 years out of college”. Had not thought about varying real estate markets; thanks for pointing that out. And yes, by the 30s, he should have his own place unless HE’S the one renting out the room or taking care of his folks. But I still want to be able to have my way with him at breakfast if that is my desire :0

  14. PastorofMuppets says:

    @Feral
    You guys are lucky down there in Dallas. A one-bedroom in a good neighborhood here in Chicago will run you about $1200-$1300 a month. Tough to do for anyone earning less than $50k+ a year, especially if you’re paying off school loans.

  15. FeralFelis says:

    Pastor-
    I am an urban pioneer and live in a 60yo mixed neighborhood at the edge of a not-so-good neighborhood. 950sf frame house and 1.5 acres within 10 miles of downtown Dallas was $52,000 in 2006. We are indeed lucky…except that it’s 106 degrees today!

  16. Changed Man says:

    @Feral
    Ouch! Chicago’s very toasty today too… supposed to hit triple digits.

  17. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    Building on what Peter said, what women say and do are two very, very different things.
    What they say: “I’ll never date anyone unemployed!”
    What they do: Shack up with the tattooed bad boy on unemployment while leaving the nice guy computer programmer to jack off to internet porn because he’s “boring” or “wore the wrong sweater” on a date*

    Don’t even tell me all of you haven’t seen this in real life. Virtually every single, professional woman I know goes down this road, sometimes for decades.

    * Actual sentence said to me by a nurse who turned down a lawyer and is now dating an illegal alien “contractor” who has no contracts.

  18. FeralFelis says:

    @ Days WRT * – OMG!!!

    Yes, I’ve seen women choose what was apparently the worse choice, but never because someone wore the wrong sweater???!!! How is that even possible? I’d like to think it was just an excuse she gave and what she was really thinking but didn’t know how to say it was, “The lawyer is a dick”

  19. @Days

    You can get mad and spiteful about it, or you can learn the game outlined on this site and accept it for how it is. If you want to be the boring beta nerd, that’s your choice. Don’t get mad at the women for being the way they are. You don’t have to necessarily like it and you can wish it were simpler where everybody gets to be themselves and love each other unconditionally, but that’s not reality. Relationships do in fact have to be managed and it’s a skill to learn like any other.

  20. FlyingDuthman says:

    I am a big fan of Athol’s and I like his approach and agree with most of MMSL. However, when it comes to the importance he puts on money as part of sex rank for a guy I’m not sure if it really factors into attraction much at all. I’m sure money is a nice plus and women are attracted to money to be sure, but they are not attracted sexually to the guy with the money unless he is also very, you guessed it, Alpha.

    How many successful doctors and business men do you know who are also in a sexless marriage? I know plenty. Ever seen the movie, Unfaithful? I hate to say it, but money has very little to do with female attraction. Yes, of course, they will marry for money, but it won’t necessarily create any sexual attraction.

    And, having lots of money can help to create a spoiled brat rather than the sweet wife you want. Ever seen the housewife’s of Orange County in real life? I have. Having more money, can make the task of maintaining the hot sexual passion more difficult if your wife becomes entitled by all the money.

    The lack of money is a problem for sure, but too much can also be problematic. Just saying.

  21. A reader says:

    FWIW, I’m engaged to a woman who has very high educational credentials and makes 2x what I do (with far greater job security to boot). She has stated that the income/status disparity isn’t a problem. What does bother her is when I express dissatisfaction with my work or imply that my job isn’t secure (compared to hers, it’s not) or that I’m doing it half-assed (which I am). Mainly she wants me to be happy and doing something I’m passionate about. That’s partially her hamster talking (in my favor), but there’s truth in it.

    What drove this home for me is how she seemed to get the ‘gina tingles for our wedding photographer. He’s not (overtly) rich or particularly “hot” or charismatic (he’s soft-spoken and effeminate), and his IQ is probably 30 points lower than hers, but he is passionate about his work and very good at it and somewhat renowned (a relative out of state had heard of him), and makes a polished presentation. The fact that it’s an aesthetic craft helps, I think. Susan Walsh blogged on this. Passion + mastery + demonstration = sexy. I’m not sure if that’s Alpha or what.

    My own experience has shown that having a Major Definite Purpose for your life and being obsessively engaged in it, even if not cool/artsy or high-status, helps a ton. Talking about it obsessively will bore the hell out of her but won’t turn her off, curiously.

    Earning power itself is really a Beta (in a good way) trait with only a weak correlation to Alpha. Unemployment without game is a big DLV, of course.

  22. “46 percent of men said that when they were answering the questionnaire they had a chubby.” Thanks, this gave me a good laugh.

    Still working the map, and making headway on a long over due structural improvement. In event, this is going to lead to happiness for both of us (and the kids) or for me alone (and the kids will know I tried). I remain thankful for your book and blog. Glad you are now doing this as your main gig.

    I had a friend buy a copy of your book, and I want to buy some copies of the new edition as soon as it’s available (any new estimate on time to availability?).

    Once again, please allow me a couple of questions.

    1. I know the book says to shy away from alcohol, but is having a few beers with the boys two three times a month a positive thing (alpha in any way?) or is it a bad idea.

    2. getting her to have a couple of beers seems like a good idea. is it good for me to join in a bit or should I just nurse mine as I keep her glass filled?

    Sorry if you already directly addressed this points. Please keep thinking and writing. Thanks to Jennifer too.

  23. Days-
    THAT’S the whole purpose of this site, I believe. Demonstrating that the ladies will be drawn toward the Alpha sexually, and while there might not be enough Beta for her to marry him, she will find dating his bad-boy self a lot more exciting than the sweater-wearing nice guy. Guys who wear sweaters need some seriously edgy and dangerous hobbies to counteract the cashmere.

  24. horseman says:

    Yes but at the start of the relationship she has something to bring to the table…youth and enthusiasm. Flash forward twenty years and you have an unemployed SAHW with kids grown, no job skills and her rank has dropped like a stone post 45. So the morale of the story is yes unemployed is fine and SAHW is great for young kids but have an exit plann post kids for the two of you otherwise you get entitlement princess to the nth degree coupled with no semnse of purpose and the ilybinilwy speech…and alimony at 40% plus for years.
    Think of it like a 401k you get out at retirement what you put in in youth.

  25. My policy for dating was always, I could care less if they work or not, as long as they are hot and fun. For my wife, I chose the combination of all three, hot, fun, and employed as a doctor. Marrying an unemployed woman would have been a deal breaker for me, unless she had some exceptional Stay at Home Wife skills.

  26. LovelyLauren says:

    I think you can balance out $$ signs with other job factors. My husband is a firefighter/paramedic. There’s not a lot of money there, but there’s job stability, great benefits, room for advancement, and a pension after 20 years. If he wanted to, he could collect retirement and go work for another department.

    And I’ll echo what a reader said about passion for work. If you’re making some money at a job that requires some amount of skill and are really passionate about that, I’m really into it. To me, it’s hotter than someone who’s constantly moaning about how much they hate their job.

  27. RedPillNewb says:

    My husband is a firefighter/paramedic.

    And we all know how much the ladies just HATE muscular men with obvious physical courage, useful lifesaving skills, and the abilty to stay cool and make good decisons under extreme life-and-death duress.

    But no, tell us all about his health benefits!

  28. [quote]Quest: “1. I know the book says to shy away from alcohol, but is having a few beers with the boys two three times a month a positive thing (alpha in any way?) or is it a bad idea.

    2. getting her to have a couple of beers seems like a good idea. is it good for me to join in a bit or should I just nurse mine as I keep her glass filled?”[/quote]

    I believe Athol says that alcohol/meds/drugs can affect libido or sexual performance. If you’re having problems, then it’s worth looking into them as cause. I doubt he would say that a few drinks with friends on occasion would hurt (but no DUI, m’kay?).

    MMSL/MAP is about changing yourself and being your best, not about manipulating your partner, certainly not with alcohol.

    [quote]A Reader:”FWIW, I’m engaged to a woman who has very high educational credentials and makes 2x what I do (with far greater job security to boot). She has stated that the income/status disparity isn’t a problem. What does bother her is when I express dissatisfaction with my work or imply that my job isn’t secure (compared to hers, it’s not) or that I’m doing it half-assed (which I am). Mainly she wants me to be happy and doing something I’m passionate about. That’s partially her hamster talking (in my favor), but there’s truth in it.”[/quote]

    I’m new to game, but a core belief is to follow what people (women) do, not what they say. I’d be careful about this one, at least cultivate your passion. I’m in a similar situation, after 20 years together and it feels like s**t.

  29. A reader says:

    I’d bet being a fireMAN is much more advantageous post-Cultural Revolution, since it’s high-Alpha (at least, its image is) but low-Beta (read:$$). Today’s liberated slut doesn’t want or need much Beta, so the lack thereof is no longer a detriment. I’ll bet LovelyLauren’s badass husband doesn’t have to endure any bitching about wanting a bigger house — unlike the married programmers and spreadsheet jockeys I work with who make 3x what he makes. Income is a red herring except insofar as it denotes purposefulness and winning, and we habituate to it fast.

  30. It’s good to note that this isn’t just about the number on that bi-weekly paycheck. The poll in the OP didn’t say anything about how much money people made: it was a simple yes/no, on/off, 0-or-1 binary between “employed” and “unemployed.”

    Quite apart from the financial problems it can cause, total unemployment on any kind of long-term basis carries with it a largely deserved stigma. It doesn’t speak well of one’s character if they’re not contributing to their standard of living at all. Even if your ultimate ambition is to be a SAHM (or SAHD) partnered with someone whose job can support a single-income household, you should have SOMETHING going on in the meantime while you’re still in the dating market. Even a lottery winner or a trust fund baby should contribute positively to society even if its charity work that doesn’t bring in a paycheck.

    @a reader:

    My lady makes more than I do, not by anywhere near a factor of 2, but still by a noticeable amount. I’m passionate about my work, though (until recently I worked at a public library; like teaching, it’s low-paying but very rewarding), whereas her job to her is a necessary evil. She’s always talking about how jealous she is that I’ve found a career I’m motivated at and enjoy, so maybe there’s something to that.

    The other thing that I’ve found can offset a relatively low paycheck is upward mobility. I loved my library job, but after beating my head against the system for years chasing after a promotion that just wasn’t happening (it’s not a good time to be trying to make a career out of non-essential public service), I transferred from the library to an office job in another department with more chance for advancement. I don’t love my current position quite as much, but the pay is better, the hours are more regular, and I’m still building up seniority so that I can try to transfer back to the library on better terms when/if they actually have a good opening (as opposed to the crappy one I was filling before). And damned if eliminating that extra bit of frustration hasn’t been super nice for my relationship with my lady, too. From her perspective, I suppose I’ve still got the advantage of being motivated about my career (in the long term if not so much the short term) plus I’m no longer stuck in the same dead-end position within that career.

    I think Athol said something at one point in the primer to the effect that you’re better off being the best teacher at your school than the worst lawyer in your law firm, even if the worst lawyer makes twice as much as the best teacher. I think there’s something to that.

  31. @Athol
    “you pretty much set the precedent that you’re cool with pulling money out of your pocket for the remainder of the relationship.”

    Who said anything about pulling money out of my pocket? I do love having a park down the street. Heh.

    @FeralFelis
    “Once a guy is more than a year or two out of college, I expect him to (at a minimum) have an apartment of his own.”

    WTF? I have a roommate in a 2 person apartment and we had to designate a bowl to keep all the stuff women left behind. I’ve literally never had a girl make an issue of this (the living arrangement, not the bowl. That’s been drama. Heh)

    @FlyingDuthman
    “I’m sure money is a nice plus and women are attracted to money to be sure, but they are not attracted sexually to the guy with the money unless he is also very, you guessed it, Alpha.”

    More is better than less, but having a job is more of a prerequisite. (http://genuineapproach.com/2012/06/prerequisites-for-men-and-women/). It’s only once you can contribute a significant bump in her standard of living does money become a factor. Note: more true for younger women than older.

  32. RedPillNewb says:

    The other thing that I’ve found can offset a relatively low paycheck is upward mobility.

    This is an issue for me. I’m happiest as a ground-pounder, doing the things that ground-pounders do. My wife has vicarious ambitions to put me in the upper echelons of management. But then I’d just be shuffling paper and yelling at the people doing the real work. I don’t want any upward mobility, because any movement is a movement away from what I actually like and towards stuff I don’t like at all.

    There are other career paths where I might do well and be happy in management–but I can’t stand what the ground-pounders in those paths have to do, which means I’d have to somehow turn in good enough work to get promoted while hating my life. It’s a weird dilemma, but hey, at least I have a job.

  33. A woman that had never worked would be a bad sign, but a woman that had recently been laid off should not turn most men off.

  34. RedPillAwakening says:

    Agree that Feral’s roommate hang-up this is kind of bizarre, and probably says more about her than about guys that have roommates. But basically saying that a guy needs to “man up” and get his own place, regardless of what is in his financial best interest, ties in nicely with Athol’s other recent posts :-)

  35. LovelyLauren says:

    Re: Firefighter/Paramedic

    Actually, all of the “saving drowning kittens, puppies, and babies”/intense manly courage is mostly Hollywood. Most of what your local fire department does is run medical calls. Yeah, there are some life or death decisions and yes, it’s quite alpha, but that’s not what sells it to ME and it’s MUCH different than what most people think.

    And in today’s economy, an employer-provided heath care plan with no premiums and a full pension after 20 years is a definite attraction factor for me. Call it beta or whatever you want, but it’s a huge selling point for this gal.

    And an FYI to A reader on the “fireMAN” comment, most firefighters I’ve met prefer the term “firefighter.” A lot of manosphere-type blogs don’t like that sort of thing, but most firefighters prefer it because there are, in fact, women in the field ( 2-3 women who work in my husband’s department) and most of them think it sounds more professional and more of an “action” oriented word. If you ask them about their career, they’ll call themselves “firefighters.”

  36. RedPillNewb says:

    Actually, *my* local fire department is working on avoiding medical calls because of the expense. But I take your point. Most police activity is traffic tickets and “there were some teenagers here half an hour ago” and most soldiers are air conditioning repaimen or truck drivers. Even the average “medical” call is often some drunk idiot passed out in the gutter.

    Still, I’ve been to fire scenes. I don’t mind running towards gunshots, but it’d pretty much have to be my actual kids to get me into a burning building.

  37. Chicago Gal says:

    In response to the few posts regarding women not working or wives staying home:
    Prior to marriage, my Husband insisted that I agree to be a SAHM/wife when we started a family. It was fine with him if I choose to work until I was expecting. It was a deal breaker for him if I would not agree to stay home and raise children, cook, clean, schedule the appointments, do laundry, etc. when we had young children. He defines “young children” as up until they start Jr, High. I enjoyed my high paying career (in corporate property management) prior to falling in love with him, and had planned on always “working”. After he explained his reasons why I should stay home with young children – I was in complete agreement and the rest is history.

    I have never met a stay home (or working) Mom who sits on the couch all day and does the minimum to keep the house in order. Stay home wives DO work – we just don’t get compensated formally. Our remuneration is:
    – A bread-winning Husband who can devote the majority of his “work” life to income earning without distractions. All non work related chores and processes are delegated to us so he can spend his “family” time actually with his family or relaxing and his “work” time making money.
    – A comfortable, safe, and organized home. I am always home to notice a maintenance issue and nip it in the bud. In addition I keep the house “company ready” with things as mindless as cleaning the toilet and as involved as acting as a GC for bathroom remodels.
    – Well adjusted and constantly supervised children. Our children are less likely to be psychologically or physically harmed in any way since Mom is the person responsible for their care, not underpaid strangers.

    Additionally, stay home wives benefit every family who has a working wife. We chair the fundraising committees that raise money to build playgrounds, fund trips, and keep tuition costs low at school. We run the Moms & Tots groups at church your children attend (it is unlikely your son will get raped by a Priest in the bathroom if there are a bunch of moms hovering), we sign for your UPS deliveries when you are at work. We organize block parties and tell you when your Nanny leaves your daughter unsupervised for 20 minutes at the park to flirt with thugs. We also watch your daughter while Nanny works on get murdered and thrown in a dumpster because we would be devastated if that happened to your child.

    We keep your property values high. When the parkways are full of trash and there is graffiti at the park, we are the ones who go park our rears in the Alderman’s office (only open during business hours of course) and fuss at him until he has graffiti blasters cleaning with streets and san picking up the trash.

    All Mothers work. Some of us love our jobs, some don’t. Some get paid with direct deposit, some don’t. The stay home wife bashing comments do not contribute to a strong marriage. Each Husband has an ideal of what a family is and each wife WORKS to embody that ideal. Not all families are the same.

  38. holdingallthecards says:

    Job-less by choice is just another word for slacker or leech, whether male or female. The type of person who dates this mess is obviously just in it to selfishly feel good (ooohhh, a Project! I’m such a good person to help them out!) or they want to feel superior and have the powerful feeling of having the lazy person kiss their butt for cash for food or rent.

    Your young children should be the only unemployed people in your life that should be needy and begging for cash. Life costs money, and all mentally healthy adults should work (economy permitting).

  39. Actually to those who say most fire responses are medical runs, it depends on where ya work. In my neck of the woods, we still have a steady fire activity and some really hard work.

  40. Annoyed says:

    @chicagogal, I *have* met plenty of moms who do sit on their asses all day long and ignore their children. I used to try to mentor them when I ran children’s church, but the church justified their “right” to let their men take care of them. By which I mean work their asses off and cater to every whim of his wife and children. Please don’t start justifying SAHMS as a concept, because I will come back with Proverbs 31 every time. YOU are doing Proverbs 31 by being the best wife and mother you can. But please don’t assume everyone else is like you. I wish they were!! And you are not the SAHM we talk about when we say that a SAHM needs to be “that, plus.”

  41. When debt comes to the door, love goes out the window

    It’d be interesting to see the stats of how often women divorce their husbands after the guy becomes out of work. Or gets very ill, for that matter. In my observation, women tend to abandon you when you need them the most. “You said you’d look after us.” “I can’t take the stress anymore.” Etc.

  42. I don’t believe the “I’d be with a poor guy teehee!” line.
    #1: most women lie.
    #2: all of them lie in surveys.

    NEVER have I seen a high-value/hot stay with one long. It’s their version of a pump n’ dump – if he’s hot.

  43. holdingallthecards says:

    @Mark: I’ve weathered the storm in a LTR where he was unemployed for 5 months. It wasn’t the layoff that did the damage; it was his wounded pride, which made him snappy, overly critical, mean and almost impossible to live with. Some men also dip into severe depression or seek the solace of alcohol/drugs. It’s the way men REACT to a devastating situation that’s the problem. Men should go to a therapist or to the gym if they need to vent their frustrations and not take it out on their supporting spouse.

  44. PocketAces says:

    Wealth is less about your income than your spending. I know plenty of attorneys that if they lost their job they would be out on the street in 2 months.

    I weathered some unemployment just fine some years back. My industry went in the tank for a while and I was out for around 6 months. During that time I studied to take the entrance exam to go back to school and generally didn’t sweat it I knew it wasn’t going to be good for a while because I’d bump into my coworkers in waiting rooms at interviews. Heh. It drove my then-gf’s roommate nuts that I was so relaxed about it. The roommate really almost had a meltdown when she saw the engagement ring I bought my now wife during my unemployment. Heh.

    The roommate had absolutely no idea how I did it.

  45. A reader says:

    As a man, one thing of the best things you can do for your wellbeing is to have LOTS of money in the bank. I work in a very volatile industry, don’t have a strong resume and am a slacker. But I’m debt-free (NB: not “except for my mortgage, student loans and car loan”) and a net worth of almost 6 years’ gross salary, including ~$100K in a taxable brokerage account I can tap anytime. I know that if I get laid off I can go YEARS without working, and even more years if I pare expenses to the bone. This radically changes the stress level at work, and I assume it would dampen the ego blow were I to become voluntarily unemployed (which I never have, amazingly).

    If you’re the typical American up to your ass in debt, start with Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover. Just going from God-how-am-I-going-to-pay-this-bill-on-time to a one-month cash buffer is life-changing. If you’re intermediate level (have your shit together and savings equal to a few months’ expenses) go to Bogleheads.org and spend hours and hours reading.

  46. @ the “those money-grubbing women will dump your ass the second you’re out of a job” crowd:

    I can only speak for myself, but my lady stuck with me through one short bout of unemployment and another rather longer one of severe underemployment (getting maybe 15 hours a week, not enough to hold up my half of rent and expenses, which had always been our arrangement) without outward complaint. She didn’t leave me or cheat on me, but it DID put a strain on our relationship and her attraction toward me, and rightfully so. I didn’t handle it as well as I should have (or as well as I’d like to think I would now, with the benefit of years of experience and MMSL / married game reading). I have no doubt that if either bout had continued much longer, things could have gotten really bad. But to her credit, she gave me a fair chance to turn things around, and I did both times.

    I don’t think you can ask for much fairer than that. There ARE good women out there. They’re worth the trouble of finding, they’re worth the trouble of winning, and they’re worth the trouble of fighting to keep.

    @Chicago Gal:

    I don’t doubt there are plenty of women like you who take the SAHM thing just as seriously as they would a traditional “job” with a paycheck. I also don’t doubt there are plenty of the other kind. I wouldn’t presume to know which there are more of without hard data that I don’t have.

    I do think it’s telling that before making the decision alongside your husband to go the SAHM route for the first dozen or more years of your childrens’ lives, you had what sounds like a good career. That speaks well for your work ethic and was likely a good predictor of how seriously you’d take your SAHM duties. If I were still in the dating market, I’d take a much dimmer view of an unemployed woman who swears she’ll get off her duff and make a great SAHM just as soon as some handsome prince puts a ring on her finger.

  47. horseman says:

    @Chicago
    Its not when.the kids are young. we agreed twenty years ago that the best thing for tje kids was for a SAHM. But now the youngest is a senior the oldest is in university and how much mess do two adults make. There is maybe an hour of work a day plus laundry once a week that I do plus dinners. I clean up.

    SAHM is great. I highly endorse it. Question is what is she or he once the kids are grown??

    Twenty years of me working 50+ hours to support us was initially balanced by all the work of young kids. Now I still work aa hard just to keep my job and hers is getting progressively easier. Next year it will be juast her aat home for 8-10 hours a day…doing what? if a woman wont marry an unemployed man why should I stay with an unemployed woman.
    Kids of a SAHM going to university or on their own..IS a LAYOFF notice. period.
    If you Dont plan for this it hits hard

  48. My wife is a SAHM. I supported that for 7 years with 2 jobs, but have stopped one of the jobs and she is now looking for a job. I even did her resume up for her because she would not. Normally I wouldn’t do something for her like this that she should do on her own, but in this case it’s in my best interest so I essentially chose to fail this one shit test. She will work. There are only a few more years left before all of our children are in school full time and she should have full time employment by then. There is no reason for her to stay home at that point.

  49. holdingallthecards says:

    @horseman: I think you got screwed. I stayed at home with my twins until 1st grade, then went back to work full time. SAHMs absolutely despise moms like me because we are proof that you CAN do both if you are organized and you teach the kids to clean up after themselves. As their allowance increases, so do the chores. It boggles my mind when moms treat their 12 year olds as if they’re only 2. A SAHM just wants easy street, and she’ll fight for it tooth and nail. Sadly, the only way to motivate a stubborn SAHM is to yank their allowance (access to the joint bank account). If I were the dad, I would call around and find out how much a maid would charge to come in and clean once a week or every other week. They can give you estimates on time, too. Now compare this to what your wife can earn with a part-time or full-time job. Then tell your wife you are outsourcing to save money.

  50. horseman says:

    @holdingallthecards
    Agreed. As the kids age and need less care a SAHM will fill in with other make work gardening home improvement to look busy. But when they are teenagers and never home anyway then it becomes real apparent.
    Discovered Athol a year ago and fran the map. at ultimatum stage she basically collapsed and did nothing so now I am outsourcing her but have to wait until the kkids are goe to make it work.
    It didnt work for me but others can learn from me. SAHM are fine just have a plan to convert gradually as the kids get less dependent. otherwise it is the mother of all shit tests and its not the SAHM fault. if she is not made to work of course they will be entitled…its human nature.

  51. I’m new to the red-pill world and have found the experience enlightening. I have a few challenges to deal with, but I’ve begun to frame them in a different light than I used to. I was diagnosed with a debilitating disease about ten years ago that led me to leaving work and going on SSD insurance. Luckily I had some private insurance as well, so my income isn’t the bottom of the barrel, but I moved in with a friend in order to live more comfortably.

    I used to be extremely open about my situation when first meeting someone without giving much thought as to how it might be interpreted. Now I’m a bit more choosy as to what I talk about and how, bringing the descriptions from the passive to the active. Instead of saying that it sometimes can be hard just to stand up off the sofa, I say that it feels like I’ve already run a full marathon. In describing my pain, instead of being run over by a herd of buffalo, it feels like I fended off a pack of hoodlums with lead pipes.

    That’s if I talk about it at all, but if I’m going to be spending time with someone, it needs to be covered at some point. I’m still working out the particulars. If she’s into rockclimbing and a lot of other outdoor activities, then things aren’t likely to move along. I just can’t participate.

    I do try to emphasize the things I *can* participate in. I have a bit of an OCD approach to hobbies, so I absorb them very quickly. One of my hobbies is sim racing on a service that a lot of the pros use. I ended up approaching it as if it were my job. (I have good and bad days, but don’t have to worry about taking a week off if I need to, unlike a paying job.) I’ve learned so much about how to set up a race suspension that a pro NASCAR driver asked me to join his sim race team. I now work with guys that are immersed in that field in the physical world, both drivers and guys in the garage.

    At first I thought it would be too geeky for most women to care about, but now I realize which aspects I should emphasize. Rather than talk about how anti-roll bar asymmetry affects the way the car rides on the bumpstops, I talk about the “work” aspects and how the sim and physical worlds of racing overlap. I can take a set, make a few adjustments, and a driver will use it in the sim to hit his best times. I talk about how I can text a congratulations to X after I see him do well on TV, or how Y’s spotter will hop onto TeamSpeak when he gets bored sitting up on the (real) spotters’ stand. I talk about how I used my sim experience to drive a real road course and shocked my instructor with how well I did, or how I’m one of the go-to guys on the forums when someone is looking to learn about how a particular piece of suspension works. A lot of what I am doing may take place in a virtual environment, but it all has real-world applications—I’m not slaying trolls here.

    And now thanks to Athol, I’ve begun my journey into men’s sartorial matters and can tell you which shoe is appropriate for a tux, suit or sport coat (and the difference between a pair of balmorals and bluchers).

    I don’t look at this as deceptive, rather, I’m highlighting the better parts of my life. This is something I do with myself too, in order to stay sane. I know a few people that spend their days in bed or on the couch. Everyone has their own coping mechanisms, but I’ve seen that situation end in divorce a few times. I’ve never been that kind of person to begin with, but I’ve really taken that lesson to heart. Now I’m trying to advertise that aspect as well.

    For those who have read all that, I’m curious as to your opinion:

    For many in my position, it’s normal to avoid showing someone else that you are having trouble. If a situation will lead to getting weak or other issues, then it’s simplest to just avoid the situation to begin with. For instance, if it gets much above 80ºF out, my muscles turn even more into mush. I can walk with a cane normally, but if I’m going to an event that required me to be on my feet much at all, like a street faire, I need to use my power-chair. If it’s in the summer and a hot day, then I’ll need to wear one of those soakable hats and keep my shirt wet with cold water, and even then my hands/arms may tremor more than usual. This is in stark contrast to how I might come across in a climate-controlled restaurant. Echoing holdingallthecards, my thought is that as long as I have fun despite the difficulties, that it’s best to get out and do things, even if I look a mess, than to avoid excursion with my health as an excuse. Thoughts?

  52. DB:
    My wife is a SAHM. I supported that for 7 years with 2 jobs, but have stopped one of the jobs and she is now looking for a job. I even did her resume up for her because she would not.

    No offense, but leakage like this, is PRECISELY why I avoid marriage.

  53. @A reader: I second David Ramsey. Thank you for the link to http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_Started
    Seems very useful indeed, will forward to my captain and see if we can have a C/FO meeting about some of the info there.

    I think the SAHM discussion is so important. I am still a SAHM, since my youngest is 2, but I am definitely already plotting how to get back into the workplace in the short term future. For now, part-time would be ideal to allow me to keep my feet in the water, so to speak, while remaining fairly hands on with the kids.
    The SAHM decision is risky for both parties unless the husband is loaded, then it may not be so risky for the woman, but still risky for the man. If a woman becomes a permanent SAHM, she is financially vulnerable to whatever the husband does (whether it be bailing on her or sticking by her but making poor career/financial decisions). Sometimes I try to discuss this with my SAHM friends and they are in major denial. They do bot want to worry about the math of this SAHM choice. On the other hand, if the husband permits his wife to be a permanent SAHM then yes, he is making himself vulnerable to having someone who depends on him forever, or someone who will take a chunk in a divorce. I was a kid raised by a divorced working mom, and as a kid, that sucked on various fronts, so I am very happy to provide my kids a different experience for their early childhood, and I definitely think they are currently better off for it. But the SAHM decision is definitely a weighty decision that I think benefits very much from a well thought out C/FO approach. It should not be something that happens by accident or that either party has concerns about that are never voiced. I am learning about this as I go, because again, the SAHM/SAHD thing is never honestly discussed in the media or anywhere else. You think the fairytale works one way and then real life is very different.

  54. horseman says:

    sahm or sahd is great way to raise kids if affordable. security, parental interaction, school involveme.t etc.
    BUT by age 12-14 the sahm has less duties. unless planned for the job skills pre kids are ten years obsolete. even a brain surgion cannot go that long without skills degrading. the eventual return must be planned upfront.
    the media doesnt help or sahm discussions. they all focus on the 0-8 age group. of course sahm is the way to go for that age. what is needed is a frank discussion of afterwards.
    unfortunately the answer is always I put in xxx years at home I deserve a break…no I put in xxx years the same years at work. I dont get a break from my employer so why do you.
    Sahm is the ony career where done right its job is to eliminate its own job.
    hard hars hard red pill to swallow.

  55. I find this quite astonishing. When I was young I neither knew nor cared how much money any of the men I went out with earned. in fact my longest relationship (apart from my husband) was with a student who earned nothing. Are women nowadays really that mercenary? What do they do, ask to see a man’s payslip before they will go out with him? How bizarre.

  56. Whenever Athol mentions anything about employment, I can feel it coming…”Here comes the SAHM slam!”
    Feminists are always blasting SAHM’s as hurting their cause. Do you really want to align yourself with their opinions??
    I’m a hardcore SAHM who keeps the house spotless, cooks from scratch every day and also homeschools.
    My husband told me, as well, that I would need to be a SAHM when we had kids.
    Out of all the other SAHM friends I have, there is only 1 who is a sits-on-her-butt with a disgusting house gal.
    I totally disagree with Horseman that after age 8 there is less to do. The laundry, cooking and housekeeping are the same! And homework gets longer and more difficult.
    Any income I could bring to the family would be 1/5 of what my husband makes. He would WAY rather have zero house duties and home cooked meals than a stressed out, exhausted, corporate wife. I worked for a large computer company for many years before we had kids, and trust me – our sex life was not great.
    And yes, I have plans to “do something” after my child is grown.

  57. holdingallthecards says:

    Shanna–not buying it. I have twins, and they have always had chores. I am not their maid. They make a mess, they dirty their clothes, they eat, so as soon as they were tall enough, I taught them to clean, wash their own clothes, and cook. Someday they will have families of their own (I hope) and they need to be capable, responsible parents, too. Lazy “royal” children simply become lazy adults that choose to get married to a spouse that coddles them just like their mommy did.

    Like Horseman said, your SAH gig should eliminate itself over time, unless you are using the housekeeping chores as an excuse to stay unemployed.

    My only exception is full-time homeschooling, but then you aren’t a SAHM but an unpaid teacher, right? Still, no excuse on the chores.

  58. Joe Commenter says:

    @Shanna. The feminists are jealous of what you have. None of the fems ever found a a partner that was wealthy enough and loved them enough to have them be SAHM. That’s why they try to shame you.

    There’s nothing wrong with staying at home and never going back to work. Seriously, if you are happy staying at home and your family has money to pull it off, why not do it?

    I would have loved to have made enuf money to have my wife be SAHM. But we couldn’t do it. Even with all the child care expenses my wife made more money that those costs. So working was the fiscally better way to go

  59. PocketAces says:

    Shanna:
    http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=1

    I love the part about 3 year-olds wielding machetes.

  60. horseman says:

    @shannayou are the exception. homeschooling is very difficult and to all I FULLY support sahm until teenage years. However once tje kids are gone in university or working what then. how much mess do two adults make with one working. so shanna once the kids are gone what will you do for the rest of the day assuming 1 hour to clean 1 hour for breakfast and 2 hours for a scratch evening meal. still leaves 4 hours to offset hois eight per day.

  61. holdingallthecards says:

    @Joe C: uh, no, I’m not jealous of women who stay home to clean and cook all day. Feminism was born from bored women who wanted to use their brains and work, who dreamed of becoming surgeons and judges and everything that men did. Would you like to stay at home and vaccuum and do laundry all day? Of course not. Even if I derived pleasure from cleaning, I would at least start my own business and make money from doing it.

  62. @horseman – I get the feeling whatever Shanna says she will do with her time must suit your definition of ‘productive’ use of time? You are projecting a male value system onto non-feminist women. I know men find great self respect, achievement and pride in thier jobs – it is where most men (feminists have adopted this) find thier value. No so for non-feminist women however. Her value is in her family and community. This is not in ‘competition’ with her husbands productivity. It’s not ‘equal’ and should not be compared that way. It is ‘complementary’ to it. Society needs both to function. Don’t expect your wife to do what you do equally. Expect her to complement your role in her female way (whether or not it involves a job).

    If a SAHW (after kids) gardens for a couple of hours a day – is that productive use of time, or is that just her ‘hobby’ and not a worthwhile contribution to her household or society? Will her grandchildren not learn about flowers from her well cared for garden? Will the kids walking home from school not benefit from seeing all those blooms and how beautful it is? Will they not learn that seeing her in the garden every afternoon shows how much time and dedication it takes to make something look so good? Will her husband not take pride in it also? If she walks out to meet the person delivering the catalogues to the mail box and says hello and thankyou, is she wasting time or is she making that person’s day better, giving them value for their job, perhaps cultivating a ‘positive community spirit’ that serves her and her family? As she does the shopping and sees kids out after school – and some of them up to mischief – she gives them a stern look of dissaproval – if it’s bad she reports it. Is she wasting time or is she possibly making a difference to those kids to watch what they are doing – that society expects them to be responsible?
    Little things men at work don’t even think about because they have their own work/money productivity to manage (their strong suit and important contribution to family and society). But women at home care very much about these ‘little things’ – it’s this environment her children are growing up in, that her grandchildren will grow up in. It’s not ‘equal’ to her husbands role, it’s complementary and just as important.

  63. holdingallthecards says:

    @girl4: Horseman’s wife doesn’t put out. She’s just a freeloader.

    After seeing the kids off to school, you can go to work. I do.

  64. FeralFelis says:

    @girl4 and Shanna-
    IMO, you’ve been getting slammed instead of being engaged in a discussion of differing circumstances and opinions.

    I hope you don’t worry about it. There are some very mean-spirited people on this site. In giving the benefit of the doubt, I hope it’s just that some of the niceties of normal discussion don’t always translate well to the written word. Each of you sounds delightful, and I for one took heart in the wonderful mental pictures of the non-corporate life you painted.

    I’ve volunteered in hospice, and I can tell you I’ve not run across ONE person who wished they’d spent more time at work or had earned more money!! IMO, you have your priorities in order.

    My mental picture would include living a life-style that was debt free and modest enough ( I LOVED “a reader” ‘s post!) that my husband could feel relaxed enough to join me in the garden occasionally, or take a day off to host the homeschooled field trip.

    MMSL is designed to enhance the quality of life for both partners in a monogamous, sexy, satisfying relationship. If anyone here is in a relationship that’s working, it ain’t broke and we shouldn’t be trying to tell you how to fix it!

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