Sex Rank Affects Every Relationship You Have

Reader:  I wanted to ask you something do you think the principles of game can work with female-female friendships?

I think I’m my best friend beta husband. She kind of did something disrespectful and unconsidered that I know she wouldn’t do to our bitchy common friend and I think me being too nice has to do with it. This is a woman I had known for 12 years and I always being nice and accommodating and I think she kinds of decided that if I treat her like a queen is because I’m her slave. I told her that what she did was mean and she kind of laughed at my face and say that I was being “silly” even though she did something that I make sure not do to her like four years ago because I knew it was not right… anyway  I decided to cut contact and not call her (She is unemployed now, so I call her so she doesn’t spent money but then she does calls our other bitchy that lives in Boston) and it took her a week to call me  to apologize properly.

Now I wonder if I should add more Alpha to our relationship (call her less, give her less gifts and other stuff)  or you think I’m being paranoid? Has Jennifer noticed anything like this in her girlfriends?

Athol:  Sex Rank is in effect for same sex relationships too. It’s always the most attractive guy that’s leading the male-male friendship. It’s always the most attractive female leading the female-female friendship. We all fall somewhere in the pecking order.

This effect is why a lot of guys running the MAP find their work environment changes for the better even though they were trying to work on their marriage. Their status in the social group rises because they are more attractive and people start treating them nicer. They stop taking crap at home and they walk into their office feeling more confident and assured, people notice and respond to it.

In general, you train people how to treat you. If you’ve been deferring to your friend for years and years, she is in charge of the relationship. She’s dominant and you’re submissive. By bumping back on her you upset the social order a little lol. It may well be that you’re pulling level with her, or the dominant/submissive roles are going to change. I’ve also had some minor amount of email confirming that in same sex romantic relationships, MMSL works pretty much on cue too.

There’s always a dominant and a submissive partner in any dyadic social relationship. This is simply what humans do on an unconscious level. I know people go crazy when I talk about dominance and submission, but it’s extremely important to grasp how dominance and submission exists in every interpersonal exchange. When you get on a bus, the bus driver is dominant and you pay your fare and sit well behaved and appropriate… i.e. submissively… on the bus. When a cop pulls you over, the cop is dominant and you’re the submissive. The middle manager is dominant over the staff, but submissive to the director. You can have a dominant role in one social place and a submissive role in another. Stop thinking dominance and submission is only about wearing black leather and consentual whipping lol. It’s everywhere and happening all the time.

Most interpersonal conflict arises from attempts to maintain threatened dominance and/or evade being in a submissive position. When I started “breaking free” at work, I got into “trouble” several times with my superiors. Once it became apparent I wasn’t going to be contained, and in fact was becoming someone that could bump back on them rather firmly, they backed off and were much nicer. For the reader in question, there was a big blowing up of the relationship when she bumped back and then it resolved after a bit.

This is also why the Captain and First Officer approach creates a low conflict marriage. If you’ve already decided on the power structure and agree to it, most points of potential conflict are side stepped. Otherwise the alternative is somewhat akin to the Rule of Two of Sith Lords. There’s a Master and an Apprentice and eventually the Apprentice seeks to kill the Master and either succeeds or is killed themselves. So it works great for a while then always blows up somehow.

It is very very rare that there are genuinely equal relationships. Usually when one couple says they have an equal relationship, that’s the viewpoint the dominant partner wishes to believe in and the submissive partner states agreement because they wish to not displease the dominant partner. I’ve often seen quite bullying dominant wives get very angry when it is pointed out they don’t in fact have an equal relationship because they are running the show. More ironic than that is if a husband acted to a wife, like they act toward their husband, they would be outraged at the dominance and “abuse.” The Rationalization Hamster is strong.

Dominance is not a good or bad thing, it simply is. You can use it for good or for evil. You can exploit others, or quite benignly lead the way. There’s no requirement that the male has to be the dominant one and the wife the submissive one, it just seems to be the way most people are wired for eroticized relationships.

And whether dominant or submissive, I don’t advise putting up with abuse, deception or neglect in your intimate relationships.

Jennifer:  Athol is dominant in our relationship, but he’s so light about it that I don’t feel controlled by him. It’s not like he runs my day or micromanages me. I like following his lead. Also he does respect my input and listens well. It works for us. I’m not oppressed lol!

 

Comments

  1. pdwalker says:

    I’m not oppressed lol!

    Ah ha! More proof that he has you under complete mind control!

    Quick! Assemble the doogooder team to rescue her from her obvious oppression!

  2. Not to be too difficulty and picky…but could you correct your readers’ grammar and writing before you publish their questions? This reader’s comments/questions are so poorly written that they are difficult to understand. They detract from the overall quality of the post.

  3. This is fascinating to apply in same sex friendships/relationships.
    I have noticed my mother-in-law seemingly throw fitness-tests at me. At first I was perplexed why she would attempt to dominate/influence me on things that were of such little import that did not effect her at all. I held my ground in these instances by default (not conscious of the fitness-test dynamic), but it really does make me angry that she should attempt this with me. She is by far dominant in her own marriage, but cannot dominate my high Alpha husband (her son). What makes her try to dominate me? I don’t think it’s a case of testing if I’m strong enough for her son….I get the feeling it’s far more personal.
    I have read that a (unhappy?) woman with a Beta husband will get catty when around other women who have Alpha husbands. They will take it out on their Beta husband and the wife of the Alpha male. This seems pretty acurate as far as my MIL goes.
    Do you have any further insight into that Athol? I’d be interested in your opinion of how to deal with it and why it happens in more detail.

  4. @girl4 – OMG, my MIL throws fitness tests at me, too! I didn’t recognize them for what they are until a couple months after coming to MMSL. I’m very submissive by nature and I always try to “avoid confrontation” (i.e. … submit!) and that woman walked all over me! EVERYBODY submits to her, and she’s become absolutely AWFUL to be around. I’m not quite sure how to step up and dominate the relationship I have with her, but I do know that I no longer just submit to her. In fact, she fucked up really badly at Easter time and I refused to go to her house or even speak to her for six weeks until she sent me flowers and an apology. I don’t know how to proceed with her from here; I am quite interested to hear if Athol has a response to your question!

  5. “I have noticed my mother-in-law seemingly throw fitness-tests at me. At first I was perplexed why she would attempt to dominate/influence me on things that were of such little import that did not effect her at all. I held my ground in these instances by default…”

    OMG this is so true. My MIL is now submissive to me, now that I think about it. But boy, was I bumping back hard there for a while, ESPECIALLY after I had my first kid. I guess that must have been the maternal/lioness instinct going “oh no you didn’t!”

  6. @ girl4:
    Another possibility is that she’s losing control of her son (an Alpha, no less. Quite a feather in a domineering woman’s cap!) and she’s losing it to YOU.

    @ Jennifer:
    Submission sin’t oppression, it’s trust. But you knew that.

    @Athol:
    Please keep using the words “dominance” and “submission!” Desensitize the brainwashed public. They are both excellent qualities but nobody knows that because they are continually mistaken for “domineering” and “passiveness.”

  7. Anon
    That was my question and problem. Sorry I had been writing to Athol for so long that the fact that English is not my first language kinds of doesn’t register anymore for him.
    I sent the question to Athol in hopes to have something informative to add to the blog. This is the same friend I mentioned here before the change, that is always late but that if you made her wait raises hell, she also cheats at games, but if you so much make a mistake again, you will be lucky to get out with your head intact, reason I don’t play with her anymore . Some people told me that she didn’t sounded so nice and I was like “Oh but she is if you only knew her as I do’…oh love can be so blind.
    Now I’m having the same issues men that drink the red pill have. I enjoy being nice to people why can’t they just reciprocate with more niceness instead of becoming bitchy and demanding?… Stupid human nature. :(

  8. You can be nice, simply demand nice treatment in return. If someone is not nice to you in response, it’s bump-back time. Either they’ll shape up or they’ll stop being friends with you, in which case good riddance anyway.

  9. @Suz – How would you define the two terms? I do tend to view both of them negatively, although I don’t view the way that Athol and Jennifer describe their relationship as negative. I guess I do tend to think ” domineering” and “passive” when I hear those words.

  10. GC,
    I like to analyze behavior in terms of primitive survival – how would a certain behavior benefit a small prehistoric tribe?

    A man must dominate his environment to survive, but he must do it with judgement, with an eye to the future, a conservation mentality. He can’t afford to destroy what he dominates, or he will have to waste time and energy replacing it. In interpersonal relationships, I agree with Athol; a good leader (a True Alpha) has a balance of Alpha and Beta traits. He has the wisdom to know when to negotiate instead of obliterate, and he does it from a position of strength. He invests himself into what he dominates. To him, kindness is not weakness. A domineering man (or woman) is striving unsuccessfully for dominance, and frequently APPEARS dominant, but everything he does, he does out of fear of losing rather than with confidence. He’s a control freak. He’s capricious about what he controls and how he controls it, because he lacks the judgement and discipline to develop and maintain a “conservation” plan. He never negotiates, he only dictates. He sees kindness either as a weakness or as currency, because he doesn’t comprehend how his own kindness can benefit him.

    A woman has to dominate much of her environment as well. A passive woman can only survive in a wealthy society where she can afford to do nothing productive. A strong, smart woman can survive indefinitely on her own, until she has a child – then she is dependent on either a man or a social/familial support network. In order for her child to survive, she must submit to a dominant man (whereas submitting to a domineering man can be dangerous.) Submitting is giving oneself completely, committing and trusting completely. That’s not passive. It requires patience and discipline, because if a woman even remotely intelligent, she’s going to have ideas that conflict with her man’s ideas. She must be able to present those ideas to him without attempting to undermine his authority. She must reinforce his self confidence so he matures into a better leader. (That may sound like she’s “topping from the bottom” but it’s not. Her alternatives are to rebel or contribute nothing.) She must have the strength to dominate her smaller environment – her job, her home, her children, so as to be less of a burden to him. This frees him up to dominate more outside resources. She must have the will to defend her marriage/family from destructive outside social influences, such as meddling in-laws, her friends and coworkers, and men who would cheerfully destroy her family for a fling with her. She is the primary protector of the home and the children while her husband is out hunting more resources or battling to acquire and keep territory. A passive woman can’t submit thoroughly to her husband, because she will submit to whatever influence is right in front of her face at any given moment. A passive woman won’t speak up to her husband when she has a “better idea” that could prevent or mitigate his failure. She has no agency and takes no responsibility for herself. Submission requires guts and determination. How passive is that?

    Broken couples are domineering/passive. Strong couples are dominant/submissive.

  11. Changed Man says:

    Suz, well thought out, excellent post.

  12. horseman says:

    Look up group dynamics on Google. lots of theory out there that this is what happens in any work situation. SoCal did lots of great work in the 80s.

    Basic theory is there are 22 roles in a group from 3 leaders styles, surf who does the grunt work to mediator who is work useless unless there is need to solve conflict within the group.

    on dominance any group has up to three leaders. one based on positional power e.g. manager or cop. one based on percieved strength either physical intellectual or resources and one based on attraction or charisma. any group rapidly gels into this hierarchy. think of the last all day conference you went to. not including the speaker think of the attendees. someone quickly rose as the voice even though you didnt know each other and wouldnt again.
    I teach a course on this using the movie twelve angry men. the remake actually works better. the premise is that through the movie at different points each juror rises to the leader based on thier strength, makes thier arguement and returns to a less role.
    game as such and athols approach in general is to make us aware of how this happens to everyone in every situation. share a cab with a stranger and after a 10 minute ride you will know who is capt and who is FO.
    MAP helps you increase you hold on leadership in every situation.
    i personally would love to see the primer modified to a business model i can use at work. i use the concepts but telling my student mamagers it came from mmsl wouldnt go over well

  13. horseman says:

    Suz
    Brilliant post especially the difference between dominance and domineering.
    Reference Picard vs Ron Cox captain while Picard held by the Cardasians. prime example.
    I cant believe i blanked on the name. have to turn in my tricorder.

    ?. who is better alpha beta mix capt Picard or capt Mal Reynolds. major argument at my house.

  14. On Athol’s original post: yes it does.
    Since adding Alpha to my life, it has completely changed the dynamic at work. I shoot past others who have been in the profession far longer. Why? Because I’m better and I won’t back down when I’m right and they’re wrong. It also doesn’t hurt that the majority of the profession is female.

    Yesterday, clueless wife was being clueless. She was bumping back, shit testing and being pout-y.

    Then she checked facebook. She saw the picture of me and the kids on the bike ride. 200+ likes. 60 comments. 90% female.

    THEN, one of our female friends cut out my picture and reposted it with the sole comment, “YUM” and tagged me. 100+ likes. 100% female. (well, two gay friends)

    Wife performs an attitudinal midair 180 and attacks me in the bedroom.

    Giggedy.

  15. ExtremeBalance says:

    Any good suggestions for reading on social dynamics?

  16. Outstanding post.

    @girl4: I have read that a (unhappy?) woman with a Beta husband will get catty when around other women who have Alpha husbands. They will take it out on their Beta husband and the wife of the Alpha male. This seems pretty acurate as far as my MIL goes.

    This is an important part of the Female Social Matrix, that is, the way in which women interact together at a social level. I’ve been talking about this on my own blog for a few weeks, and I completely agree with Athol about the effectiveness of adding Alpha to your same-sex interpersonal relationships like the one discussed. A woman’s position within the Matrix is highly conditional and context-dependent; indeed, her husband’s social rank in the Male Social Matrix adds to hers, but not the other way around. So a woman with a low-ranked husband (a Beta male who is not highly ranked among other men) will seek to “level” the Matrix, improving her position by attempting to subvert the influence of a higher-ranking female (the MIL), basket-of-crabs style. And a woman with an Alpha husband enjoys the buff she gets to her own social rank, which makes her a prime target of the lower-ranked woman.

    This is one reason why women don’t like clear-cut hierarchical social structures with clearly-defined roles and responsibilities, ala the military, sports or naval hierarchies. They prefer more egalitarian social structures, wherein decision making is done by a consensus that can be influenced overtly or covertly. That allows them more power to influence the entire group and improve their own position without seeming to go against the consensus. It also keeps such low-order hierarchical groups from accomplishing much of anything.

    Improving your Alpha in such a situation is almost always going to improve your position within the Matrix, because even if you piss off your bitchy friend with your new display of backbone, the other women in your close Matrix will see or hear about the event (gossip is the life’s blood of the Matrix) and your relative position will rise accordingly. Women respond very positively to successful displays of dominance, regardless of where they see them.

    Again at the risk of bleeding traffic, my recent post about how the interactions between the Male and Female Social Matrices play out can be found here: http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/06/female-social-matrix-playground-rules.html

    And I fully agree that running the MAP has incredible unintended side-effects when it comes to work and social relationships. If you aren’t going to take crap from your woman, why would you take crap from anyone else?

  17. horseman says:

    @extremebalance
    try Google Hinkin, Schriesheim in the 80s or French and Raven early 60s.
    Psychology Today or Harvard Business Review.
    Also Henry Mintzberg out of McGill on the roles of management, he defined a dozen or so.
    General Google on scholarly articles has hundreds.
    Also try social power, group roles, group formation

  18. @GC:

    “@Suz – How would you define the two terms? I do tend to view both of them negatively, although I don’t view the way that Athol and Jennifer describe their relationship as negative. I guess I do tend to think ” domineering” and “passive” when I hear those words.”

    Not to get too deep into this again, but I think this raises an interesting point: if you’re constantly having to re-explain that when you use THESE terms, you really mean THIS, then are they really the best, clearest terms to use?

    Actually I think Athol strikes a really good balance here. Some days he speaks in terms of dominance and submission. Other days he speaks in terms of leadership. By varying up your terms while sticking to the same basic message, you can help that message by understood by the widest possible audience.

    On an entirely different note, I’d be fascinated to hear more about any feedback Athol has received from gay readers. His writing is always in terms of heterosexual male/female couples, which only makes sense as it’s what he has first-hand experience with and targets the broadest possible readership. Still, it’s always interesting to hear input from a vastly different point of view, and it would be fascinating to hear what it’s like to try to apply Athol’s ideas in a situation that lacks the sort of predetermined gender relationships that straight couples enjoy.

  19. Girl4 and Suz – It’s just a straight up pecking order thing. She’s just trying to dominate you to be above you in the pecking order and carry more social authority in her sons eyes than you. The fastest way to stop it is to have your husband express discontent with his mother about the way she is treating you.

  20. Thank you, Suz – very interesting and thoughtful explanation.
    Ben – Yes, I have the same question. Those two words have such strong negative connotations in our society, I wonder if it’s productive to continue to use them.

  21. Yeah, the terminology is still a bit confusing. For example I would consider it offensive to tell my MIL to her face: “now you are submissive to me. I am dominant in my nest, back off. ” And I generally don’t like calling people names I wouldn’t call them to their face. The way I always saw it in terms of my relationship with her, was that she was being disrespectful in terms of overstepoing boundaries and crossing into my territory. So to me it was an issue of respect and treated it as such. Tell her to her face, excuse me this or that is unacceptable. If my husband was present he would back me up and step in because we do that for each other with each of our mothers. But sometimes my husband wasnt present, I had to handle it, and I did. But I guess I never saw it as having to “dominate her” as much as seeing it as me protecting my turf. I think there is a difference of perspective there? Gotta think about that one….I guess I see a strong person as someone protecting what they want and I see a dominating person as someone going after others, taking from them? I see dominance more as aggression and leadership more as self-assurance.

    Been thinking about other same sex relationships, and I don’t tend to be Queen Bee amongst my girlfriends, I am the listener usually, and the planner and many times the initiator, but I’ve never considered myself to be above my girlfriends, and I’ve been happy to step back when my plan is not the popular one, and someone else has a better plan, so I guess I am not sure that the hierarchy is always vertical.

    Those are my issues with the dominant/submissive perspective that I am not so sure about…

    Very useful input in the above comments though.

  22. “She must be able to present those ideas to him without attempting to undermine his authority. She must reinforce his self confidence so he matures into a better leader. (That may sound like she’s “topping from the bottom” but it’s not. Her alternatives are to rebel or contribute nothing.) ”

    Suz: i am gonna reread your post a few times, because it so hits the nail for my situation. Any insight / pointers as to how I can reinforce him into a better leader without undermining his authority? You are absolutely right, I feel cornered because my only options are to rebel or do nothing. I will die if i do nothing, that’s not my nature. I will not rebel because I do love the guy, and I live for my family unit. It is my goal in life actually, to keep this family unit intact, because I didn’t have one growing up.

    So case at hand: there is something he needs to take care that I cannot do. I am not joking when I say this should have been done at least 2 years ago. So at present, I started reading this blog and decided to be cheerleader wife. Whatever he wants he gets. He’s loving life right now. But what about the fucking thing I need you to do? During one of his happy moments, he’s just all over me in a non-sexual way at that particular moment, I mentioned that it would make me so happy to get that thing done. That was 2 weeks ago. I have been extremely careful to not nag at all. Have only mentioned the issue at hand, in a very wishful, hopeful manner, only twice in 1 month. So what the hell?

    What I am doing with my anger is using meditation as far as counting my blessings. We are indeed a blessed family in many ways. But there is no way that if this thing doesn’t get done in another month or so I will
    not know what to do with my resentment. I do not know how to prevent a blow up then.

    Oh and so, I havent bought the book because I figure it is not my job to get him the book. So is it recommended for couples to read this book together? Isnt that counter to the C/FO thing?

  23. Been thinking about other same sex relationships, and I don’t tend to be Queen Bee amongst my girlfriends, I am the listener usually, and the planner and many times the initiator, but I’ve never considered myself to be above my girlfriends, and I’ve been happy to step back when my plan is not the popular one, and someone else has a better plan, so I guess I am not sure that the hierarchy is always vertical.

    It seems to me that you are like me a “Power behind the throne” kind of girl you rather have something that benefits the group even if you don’t get recognition. I had been forced into leadership out of charisma and knowledge but the moment someone manifest the slightly interest on leading I give away ASAP and step back into a counselor/influencing sort of role that is far less stressful and more emotional rewarding.

    I think part of the reason my possibly soon to be ex-best friend was so mean to me was because originally we were a herd of 5, now is just me and her do to life taking over for the rest, I still talk to the others on facebook but is not like the other one where I’m even godmother of her son, so there was a more distance in which my defferring to all of them make the niceness more widespread, now focusing my attention on keeping our friendship alive ended up with her on top and she doesn’t handle the top well. The brief moments I had been Queen Bee I try my best that everyone is taken care of, maybe I shouldn’t be so adverse to leading if allowing other queen to reign might end up like this, The herd of 5 as destroyed by power struggles among the queen’s to be, but then my sex rank was not high back then so it wouldn’t had worked taking over the power, I think my sex rank is higher now who might also played a part on the conflict…just thinking out loud.

  24. Wendy,
    That’s where patience comes in; there’s more but I don’t know what it is, besides praise and encouragement. It might just require some time for him to come to trust that you want this for non-selfish reasons, especially if you have a history of nagging. Nothing substantial is going to change overnight.
    A few years ago we went through a rough patch, and I had to put my foot down for my husband to understand how important a particular issue was (to all o f us.) It was all but a blatant ultimatum. Even though I didn’t say the words, the possibility was there. I must reiterate something Athol has said about ultimatums – you must be prepared for the consequences; you might not like them. I knew I was risking everything, but I also knew that the damage being done could have become permanent, and at that time, I was the only one who could prevent it. (It was an unusual situation, in which he had become temporarily “weakened” and unable to lead with good judgment. Very painful for the whole family.)

    Ben,
    I agree with you in principle about the problems with using the words “dominant” and “submissive.” However, women tend to rationalize terms into what they want them to be. Using words that make people uncomfortable, can make them think. “Captain” and “FO” are excellent terms, but how many women consider themselves FO’s and are unconsciously angling for a promotion? “Dominant” and “submissive” indicate the undeniable differences between the roles. I think you have the right idea in using similar terms interchangeably, which is why I asked Athol not to hesitate to use “dominant” and “submissive,” at the risk of setting some people off. I’d like to see more people *who are interested in relationship dynamics* become emotionally desensitized to the words. Athol has the power to accomplish that.

  25. Also, Wendy, have you given him the book? Solid masculine leadership doesn’t just “happen” even in good circumstances. If he was raised in the West in the last 40 years, I can assure you he has not been taught to lead. He has been taught to suppress his masculinity and defer to the feminine.

  26. FeralFelis says:

    @ Athol- I love a man with a big DICtionary! “Dyadic”, indeed! Made me swoon!

    @ Suz-one of the best posts I’ve ever read on any topic, anywhere. Well done!

    I have spent a lot of time out in nature (bush, woods, wild, whatever you want to call it) observing all manner of animals, including primates.
    I have dogs and have had cats, chickens,goats, sheep, and horses.
    I’ve worked in small companies and big corporations.
    I’ve had relationships with just one friend and with groups of friends.
    There is no discernible difference.

    Those who have mentioned that there is ALWAYS a pecking order, ALWAYS an heirarchy, ALWAYS a dominant/submissive duality, are 100% CORRECT.

    I’m not sure it’s 100% related to sex rank, but that’s as good an explanation as any. The point is, you’re either higher on the ladder or lower on the ladder, and one’s placement on the ladder is not a judgement of “good” or “bad” (assuming that those above you are not crapping on you).

    If you want a visual training class on becoming more dominant in an effective way, watch Cesar Milan in the early days of the Dog Whisperer shows. I can walk up to a group of people (or dogs) and dominate more than half of them nonverbally (with eye contact, posture, attentiveness (or lack thereof), and social space alone). It’s an interesting experiment for the more Beta folks out there. I don’t think it has anything to do with sex rank, but as you’re working on upping your sex rank, if you learn these other behaviors, you will get more bang for your buck (also very sex-rank oriented critters, not necessarily having much to do with size of antlers).
    What a fun post!

  27. @FeralFeris:

    “Those who have mentioned that there is ALWAYS a pecking order, ALWAYS an heirarchy, ALWAYS a dominant/submissive duality, are 100% CORRECT.

    I’m not sure it’s 100% related to sex rank, but that’s as good an explanation as any.”

    I think it’s less a causation thing than a correlation thing. The one with the highest sex rank isn’t more likely to be the leader because they have the highest sex rank. They have a high sex rank because a lot of the qualities that support sex rank are the same qualities that make an effective leader: decisiveness, charisma, etc.

    If there are a group of men setting out to accomplish a task and all the men are deferring to a natural leader among them, it’s not because their project is building a gay bar and the other men want to jump his bones, but if a woman walking by happens to see that this guy is getting the lion’s share of deference and respect, that might very well make HER more likely to want to jump his bones.

  28. Suz: many thanks for your reply. I got patience, I am good for the long haul. I just need to see a sign or two to make sure I am on the right track. I will not benefit directly by what he needs to do, other than my satisfaction of seeing him be a captain. We are not at a rough patch yet, I enjoy doing the cheerleading thing, we’ve been having fun. I do wanna know though how to keep doing the praise, the encouragement, etc without seeming like I am the captain. For now, all I know is how to keep him happy, so I’ll keep at it and see how it goes. I’ll give it the whole Summer, Summer is a good time to cheer and have fun.

    I feel like if I buy the book and say “here read it”, that’s a captain move on my part. Plus the fact that if he just puts it aside and ignores it, I will have blown that bridge. I honestly really want him to read that book though. That’s why I was wondering if in my case reading it together will be better. I don’t care either way, I just want it to get read.

  29. You could buy the book and say that you heard about it, and people say it’s great for improving a couple’s sex life (which is true). Then start reading it and leave it around the house.

  30. AnonJohn says:

    athol, can you start a blog about relationships geared towards men?

    a place where men can talk amongst themselves and enjoy some brotherhood?

    it seems i’m only able to find marriedwomansexlife.com

    Grow a pair of balls yourself and write about male dominance on your real name and get back to me.

  31. Joe Commenter says:

    @Wendy said: So case at hand: there is something he needs to take care that I cannot do. I am not joking when I say this should have been done at least 2 years ago. Have only mentioned the issue at hand, in a very wishful, hopeful manner, only twice in 1 month. So what the hell?

    Wendy, men do not follow helpful hints. You need to tell him what he needs to do, how he needs to do (in excruciating detail, don’t make him guess), and why it’s bad if he does not do it. You are not doing anyone any favors by beating around the bush. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

    I am going to guess that there is some grey area. That it is not as simple as you are making it sound. I mean that if it were really so blindingly obvious and helpful for everyone that your man do this thing, he would have done it yesterday. Men are very simple creatures. If doing this thing were going to make his life better it would be done. There has got to be some reason that it is not to his benefit to do it that is making him hesitate.

    What is holding him back? What is in it for him if he does what you want. Maybe your are not selling it properly? Maybe he doesn’t think it’s worth it.

    Just one Joe’s opinion.

  32. Thanks Joe. There’s no point in obsessing with this particular issue at hand, my overall question is how does a wife help her husband become more of a leader.

    I didn’t mean to hijack the thread, I am just figuring out Suz’s post, which resonates a lot with me.

    GC: yeah, I might as well do that. It is not my normal modus operandi though, I dont do well with sneaky. But what the hell. I might as well just go for it.

  33. Joe Commenter says:

    @Wendy. I still think you are being too vague. Have you asked him specifically to be more of a leader? If so, what do you mean by be more of a leader? To some people being a leader means being an asshole jerk bossy type. Some people think a leader just makes the money in the house. Athol’s captain / FO model is pretty good. But even that leaves a lot up to interpretation. How would you define it for him? You have to tell him what you want. If you can get him to read MMSL, great. But many guys are gonna do that.

    You can train him by Catch him doing leadery things. Example. My wife and I heard my son dropping the F-bomb a couple of times. I told her that I would handle it. No big thing. I just told him to knock it off. My son stopped it. Afterwords my wife made a big deal out of how great it was that I was “the man around the house” and lead the discipline. She’s training me to be the leader.

    Something I use on my wife a lot: When she has an interaction w/ me or the kids that doesn’t go well, I will tell her, “hey hon, would it work better if you did xyz instead of abc”. Most of the time xyz had never occurred to her. In other words, I am GIVING SPECIFIC ACTIONS that my wife can take that will make my life better. But I am not making my wife guess what I want. I just told her.

  34. @ Joe: “You can train him by Catch him doing leadery things…Afterwords my wife made a big deal out of how great it was that I…” Yes, I have started to do that and will continue to do so.

  35. AnonJohn says:

    “Grow a pair of balls yourself and write about male dominance on your real name and get back to me.”

    WOW. you totally misread me. I was trying (failing) to insinuate that your blog has been taken over by women and the comments sound more like a sewing club than a bunch of dudes trying trying to help each other.

    I’m one of your biggest fans, so I’ll just turn the other cheek on this one!

  36. @Ian – thanks for you response. (I’ve been enjoying reading your blog) For a long time I did not really try to dominate my MIL’s social status (within the family). I think I just ‘gave’ it to her from respect of her position as the elder/my husbands mother. I made the mistake of never challenging her for years because of this ‘automatic respect’ – which of course led her to have very little respect for me in return. I have started pushing back in recent visits (long overdue), for my own self respect.

    @Athol – yes, pecking order. The challenge I have with my husband saying anything is, he seems oblivious of the insult to me. It’s always ‘implied’, ‘subtle’, in ‘woman’s speak’….he doesn’t see it if it’s not direct. Nor does he understand her motive behind her trying to control my actions (indirectly)…it’s all too subtle for him.

    What I notice though is the counter-effect of his indifference. When he never challenged her on the implied insults to me – he was (unknowingly?) condoning her behaviour by his inaction. No one else said anything either. Now however, the same applies – when he, and others, do not challenge me on pushing back on her, it condones the behaviour. Social consensus at work….if no one stops the behaviour, everyone is agreeing with it. To my great advantage in this, is the families desire to push back on her – but they are all too scared of her dominant self righteous act when challenged. I shall have some fun with this….. she might become a much nicer person for my effort.

  37. So, AnonJohn, you object to women discussing how to be better wives?

  38. FeralFelis says:

    My sewing club must really be missing the mark :)

Trackbacks

  1. [...] And her husband has gotten a lot better looking than she is now. Doesn’t bode well. [...]

Speak Your Mind

*