What Happens In Vegas Eats Away At Your Marriage Like A Cancer

Reader:  Athol, I have a question about separate vacations. From what I have googled up they seem like a bad idea unless totally for a guys/girls only trip that is going to some place or doing something that is of no interest to the spouse; even in those cases views seem mixed.

My wife’s queen bee friend talked a bunch of single and married friends into a five day trip flying to a major city. I expressed my extreme displeasure with this since they are doing tons of stuff I would love to do there with her.

I have decided to treat this as a shit test and am agreeing and amplifying now that I have failed to talk her out of it (they scheduled it pretty quickly without much more than a couple of mentions).  I told her I am great now with separate vacations (very enthusiastic). I have also talked with the other husbands and we are planning a similar trip like a Caribbean trip.  Her first hearing of this left her scrambling for reasons for me not to go. She even backed off of doing other girls birthday trips where earlier she had alluded.

PS love your site, your advice has helped my marriage a ton. Other than this incident my marriage has vastly improved and we are both happy.

Athol: Ah the dreaded girls gone wild vacation plan. It’s a double bind in that if you passively sit by and say “Have fun honey!” you’re utterly defenseless to her cheating on you. But if you complain about it and ask her not to go, you’re a controlling jerk. So it’s lose-lose.

Look let’s be serious, the catch phrase these days is no longer “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun”, it’s “What Happens In Vegas Stays In Vegas.” If you’re a good girl who just wants to have fun, I’m sorry but the army of whores have taken over and established that trips to the Big Smoke are not to be good girls. That’s why they eviscerate their husbands about being controlling jerks and shame them into sitting quietly at home. If you want to be a very bad girl, it helps to keep the cockblock three states away and to forget to have your phone on.

So yes indeed, it is a major Fitness Test because it creates the perfect situation to cheat on you. This is why your male Body Agenda kicks in and you feel that all purpose skin-crawling-sinking-stomach sensation of utter dread. It’s like your spidey-sense gets tripped on and never ever shuts off again until there is no chance of this frakking trip happening.

So what to do.

I would tell her that it crosses the boundary of what is acceptable in your relationship. Just like kissing someone else crosses the line, or spending a couple thousand dollars without discussing it crosses the line, or being out all night and not answering your phone crosses the line. Or you getting a lap dance at a strip club is crossing the line. Being married comes with boundaries that define the relationship.

See we all have lines where on one side of the line we’re okay with what is happening, and on the other side of the line, we are very much not okay with what is happening. Where those lines lay is different for each couple, but monogamous married couples tend not to ever discuss them. Couples that are swingers, are into BDSM or are polyamorous talk a great deal about this sort of thing. They have conversations like…

“I was totally okay watching you get double penetrated by Mike and Toby, but then you went into a private room with Mike and I dunno, I just felt like I was starting to freak out about not knowing what was happening.”

“Well okay then, I guess if we’re going to keep doing this, we need to stay in the same room.”

“Okay, thanks. I just need to see you when we do this.”

Or like…

“No I liked being spanked like that, but then you called me a ‘little bitch’ and it just kills it for me and I shut down on you.”

“I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hurt you, this is new.”

“I know, I didn’t mean to cry and be all dramatic. You can call me ‘slut’ or ‘whore’ or something like that, I have no idea why, but ‘bitch’ just sets me off.”

“Well okay then slut.”

Or like…

“I didn’t mind that you had a date with Melanie tonight, I just felt so ignored when you came home.”

“Ignored? What did I do?”

“You barely said hello to me when you came in.”

“But I kissed you and we talked in the kitchen for like ten minutes.”

“I know. Just hold me or something when you come home. Like a few minutes.”

“Oh. Why didn’t you say?”

“Because I feel all crazy sometimes about this, but when you hold me it all goes away after a minute and it feels peaceful and right.”

“Well okay then.”

Or like…

“Hey there’s just something about watching the most important person in my life, leave me at home for five days, while she goes and gets randomly drunk with her single and divorced friends, in a far away city where I have no ability to intervene if something is going wrong, will never get a sense of peace or closure about what really went on and have read dozens of stories on the Internet about other guys getting cheated on in the exact same situation, that just really puts me on edge. I’m trying not to throw up right now.”

“You’re a controlling jerk. Go fuck yourself if you think I’m staying home.”

See?

Anyway, the whole girls gone wild vacation is typically predicated on disrespect and disinterest in the husband. Essentially she’s demanding that you passively watch her construct an entire scenario with a perfect cover for cheating. So even if she does nothing inappropriate, I can’t see how she’s going to respect you as a man after that.

But the more critical issue is that if she goes, she should be under no illusion that things will be the same between you when she comes back. Because like it or not, this is just something you’re going to react very badly about and things will be different. Your Body Agenda is all ramped up that the very worst thing in the world is happening five days in a row, you feel powerless to stop it and your internal relationship boundaries have been utterly disdained by your partner. That isn’t meant to be heard as a threat, just the simple reality that you’re not going to feel the same about her.

What drives you crazy is the implied threat to your oxytocin/vasopressin induced pair bond. There’s only two ways to stop it, either (1) she doesn’t go and the threat to the pair bond is removed, or (2) have the Body Agenda of the husband break off or diminish the strength of the pair bond itself… by which I mean stop loving her so much.

In short, don’t get into an argument about it. Don’t try and rationalize about it, because this isn’t something you have rational control over. I’d just say… “For me that’s crossing a serious line, I’m not going to be okay with that.” Which can’t really be argued against because it’s how you actually feel and will respond.

If she goes anyway after that, I think that’s a fairly clear signal she’s sending you.

 

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Comments

  1. FeralFelis says:

    Athol, you are so right.
    Speak your truth and if your spouse does not care enough to respect your feeings, actions speak louder than words. I had to learn this lesson the hard way; dueling separate vacations just escalated the core problems of the marriage.
    BTW, I really liked all your other examples, too. Score 100 for honesty.

  2. greenlander says:

    great post, Athol

  3. Shanna says:

    I feel so bad for this guy. This is totally unacceptable.
    He needs to put the kibosh on this right now, as Athol recommends.
    Every couple I know where they vacationed separately has divorced. It’s a symptom of what is to come.
    If she goes, it will haunt him and make him ill every time he thinks about it, wondering….

  4. Anacaona says:

    Aren’t there exceptions on this? I’m very anti girls night out and anti “separated vacations” but how about the wife or husband doing a trip let’s say to Mecca, Jerusalem, Tibet… if the husband is not religious dragging him might be more inconsiderate. Heck I know that every Twihard husband/boyfriend is relieved when their SO do a trip in group to Forks to see were Edward and Bella meet and fell in love and don’t pretend to drag them.
    Not trying to stir the pot just asking. I haven’t done my devotional trips to any of those places yet (being married to a non religious twihater) but if the opportunity comes I would like to know what to do, I wouldn’t mind booking a trip for both but I don’t think my husband will love me more if I did, in fact the opposite.

  5. JCclimber says:

    Athol, your advice would normally work, EXCEPT he already tried and failed to talk her out of it.

    Even amplifying and planning a similar trip to the Caribbean hasn’t stopped her from planning to go on THIS particular trip, just future other planned trips.
    See, she’s going on this one, whether he wants her to or not. He’s right to treat this as a major Shit test. He and the other husbands should be making sure they book flights, preferably non-refundable tickets, to a Caribbean destination known for, mmm, fun times. Even if they just sit on the beach and drink beer, those hamsters will be spinning.
    But I bet most of the gamma hubbies back down.

  6. DanG says:

    My wife’s (then married) queen bee friend and some of her other married girl friends in the hive tried to fly the exact same girls trip to Vegas – seeking/touting approval from “all the other husbands” – who “seemed” to be ok with it. A number of the girls had just finished getting in late-thirtys shape and were approaching forty. The premise of the trip was to “celebrate” the queen bee’s 40th bee-day. The sell was that the trip was going to happen no matter what.

    Even though I was in a career-based, forced-betatization, absence from the “bridge” at the time, and knew nothing of Game (per se) or MMSL, my body-agenda did scream, “No!” We went through the “trust me” discussions, and the “all the other husbands” discussions, blah blah. And, there was even the “If you say ‘no’ I’m still going to go” discussion. My counter was, “I’m not going to say ‘No,’ but I do disapprove. If you do go I’ll expect that you won’t say “No” when I spend X-thousand to take a boys trip . . . or failing that, one on my own. THAT was met with HER disapproval: “It’s not the same.” Me: “Yes, both trips are/will be EXACTLY the same!” Her: “Well, you can’t do that.”

    Bottom line, the trip never happened. There was not a lot of discussion. I vaguely remember her saying, “You said I couldn’t go.” The queen bee and another couple got divorced. My wife gained a lot of weight back, the queen bee is trying to unsucessfully compete in the 40+ SMP. I quit my long distance commute job of 18 years. I subsequently discovered MMSL. I’m back on the bridge and been working the MAP for a year. Last week, my wife started working out again. I never even hinted that she should start. Amazing! A copy of the MAP needs to be included with every marriage licence issued. Thanks, Athol.

  7. JCclimber says:

    Oh, and notice the girls pulled the trip planning off pretty quickly and quietly. With only a few passing mentions to ensure that they have plausible deniability.
    The men should be able to do the same. Man up. Buy those tickets quickly. Make sure to mention that you’ll only be hanging with the men, you won’t ever look at the hot, friendly, local women. Because, hey, you’re all married. Said with completely unshakeable frame. And thank her for giving you the fantastic idea.
    In fact, I’d make a point of thanking the queen bee for helping give the men the idea of what a fantastic idea this is for all of you.
    She’ll spend her entire 5 day trip with the girls worrying about your upcoming trip.

    I get the feeling that at this point, the man’s vacation is all just talk. I’m glad he has made progress with your advice. Obviously though, his woman needs a serious lesson here, and it won’t be learned at this point by having that talk.
    Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, or similar. Cozumel or Cancun if you must.

  8. TPoke says:

    Wow, this really hit the nail on how I feel. The science behind this is fascinating. A follow up question would be, how far does this apply? Will all these mechanics be there if say the trip is only a weekend girls only trip to say a local cabin on a lake? I have generally been less opposed to that then a girls night out to restaurants/bars due to the environmental aspect. Thanks.

  9. Mr Burgundy says:

    OK, how would you frame it if you were the guy who has already had his road trip with the boys? I speak as someone who recently did just this and had a great time. Nothing outside the wedding vows occurred, honest! But it was certainly wilder than a family vacation.

    So I’m not sure how I could say Mrs B doing the same thing is unacceptable, without being a total hypocrite…

  10. T says:

    So my husband told me that I could take a girls trip to Vegas for my birthday. He even did the planning, found the best hotels and whatnot. Now that the trip is almost here he is freaking out about it. I think that I should go anyway because I have been looking forward to it and I already paid! He also used not to care about girls night out, but suddenly that’s a problem too. I think that it has something to do with the weight that I lost (50 pounds and then had a tummy tuck). He didn’t care before because I was fat. He won’t admit it but I can tell that’s what it is. I’m probably going anyway.

  11. Trimegistus says:

    Coming home from an all-girl Vegas vacation to an empty house might get the message across.

  12. Jack Pine says:

    This is an interesting post, and it is something that I can relate to. One of the girls in my wife’s group of friends suggested a “girls trip” to Vegas for their 40th birthday. There are about five of them or so, and all married, with none of the relationships on the rocks, but it still set off my “spidey sense”.
    I handled it by inviting myself along – “Oh Vegas, sounds great! I’ve never been and it sounds like a wonderful time away from the kids!” I put my foot down when she suggested that it was a trip just for the girls, and the trip then morphed into a get together in Vegas for all the married couples in our group of friends. I think that I suggested that there was “no way in hell” that I was letting her go to Vegas on her own, and that went down surprisingly well, actually.
    I figured that I dodged a bullet, and it really should be a nice time… and I’m looking forward to pretending that I’m young again and making tons of noise in the hotel room!

  13. Jack says:

    You should do a column on talking to ex boyfriends and former lovers. It would fit perfect with what you are saying right here in this column. I had a past girlfriend who would do it and then lash out at me for complaining. She called me insecure. Weak. Controlling. “You’re notn going to tell me who I can talk to?” “Do you not trust me?” “I have given you no reason to no trust me?” “I can’t be with an insecure man.”

    It really sucks that’s how women react to these situations. It’s a lose lose situation. I think it’s self destructive behavior at it’s very core. A woman in love doesn’t go on that trip.

  14. Jane says:

    :( I feel so sorry for the poster. I’d never do that to my husband regardless of how much these “friends” meant to me. Not cool at all.

  15. horseman says:

    One better. When we could no longer afford to live in a metro area we had to look at commuter communities. Wife liked an area three…3 hours away where she used to live. After a year of arguing I as a beta back then gave in to the mother of all shit tests and moved there. I lived in the city in a basement apartment and went home on the weekends. Kids were under 10. Did that for almost ten years. The day we moved I knew I was a meal ticket. Now at late forties with the kids gone in sight her hampster has finally woken up. Too bad the exit plan has been in the works for three years. One too go.

  16. Geoff says:

    If my wife approached me for a 5 day girls 40th in Vegas I’d book a trip to Ibiza for myself. Pretty sure that would halt things quickly and send a clear signal.

  17. LovelyLauren says:

    Is it the fact that it’s Vegas that gets people so bothered? Seriously curious. My mom took a few weekend-y trips with her most-all married sisters and her mother when I was growing up that never caused problems with my parents, but she went with her mother and sisters to places San Francisco. And none of them drink.

    But my parents both had to travel regularly for work, so I wonder if the trust factor just had to be higher.

    I don’t know if I would ever travel without my husband, but honestly, I would just rather be with him than a bunch of girlfriends if I’m having fun on vacation.

    “With her mother” is a major safety factor there.

  18. Wendy says:

    Well, I have not gone on girl vacations since getting married, and with the kids still being litte, any trip hubby and I were to manage to put together we’d definitely wanna do together. So far we’ve only managed quick weekend get aways which we love.

    However I have to say that I did go to Vegas for two bachelorette parties before I got married, and being good girls as we were in my group, we definitely did Vegas tame style. I mean you can watch shows and play black jack and go to dinner and have drinks without getting drunk. The funnest part is of course sharing those big double suites with gorgeous large bathrooms with the girls and talking our ears off until we fell asleep. Honestly we did not have a single hook up, nor a single drunken incident, but one of the girls did walk away with $1000 from black jack!!!

    So I don’t know if things change so dramatically when you hit your late 30′s, or turn 40. If a friend of mine wanted to do a girls only 40th birthday trip, I would consider it. Of course my husband gets full decision making on it because it very much depends on the circumstance and most of all the company, but I don’t think a girls trip necessarily means cheating and slutting it out. Same with a boys only trip, depending on the circumstance and the company, I wouldn’t immediately veto it for my husband.

    And also this would be a unique, once in a blue moon thing, not the routine way to do vacations….

    But as far as the OP, , it seems he has some reasons to be ticked off, and that’s not the way to take a vacation, leaving your SO back home all ticked off. Not cool for sure.

  19. Dale says:

    On a religous trip; my wife is planning on going to Pittsburg by bus for an overnight with the Church’s womans group. Not much worried about it.

  20. DG says:

    FWIW – I’d say that for guys, it is perfectly legitimate to do a fishing or camping trip on your own or a handful of guy friends. OTOH – the environment is completely different from a girls night out, or a trip where there are plenty of people of the interesting sex, with inhibitions cut loose.

  21. Angeline says:

    The OP needs to get his trip booked ASAP, to a place that has a nude beach, and leave brochures and ticket info layinng around. It’s a shame it has gotten to this tit-for-tat stage, but so be it. I can’t imagine managinng to block out some precious time off, and NOT wanting to go with your spouse. The basic unsavory, salacious nature of these Girls Night Out and Girls Week ought to be part of the “I will feel differently about you” converstaion – he should point out that if it was all completely innocent, none would have any problem with spouses being there.

    That said, I see a week at a lake cabin with the guys or the gals for fishing and campfires and yakking it up with the friends totally differently than a week slutting it up in Vegas.

  22. Reader says:

    Yea, they went on the trip (not Vegas), and all the other husbands are so whipped that they will never go anywhere on their own since their wives forbid it. All the wives think I am king of the assholes. I have embraced this role and may have caused such a ruckus that I save the other husbands from having to go through this again for the next trip too. I wont be doing a boys trip both because I would be going by myself and I don’t want to put my wife through what I have gone through.

    I need to defend my wife here some though. She was hard sold on this trip by these women and it got bigger and bigger on her from what she was initially on board with. It was partially my fault by not shutting trip talk down more vehemently as other posters have done. I don’t believe she meant to plan this trip behind my back. It was planned via emails that I missed and over so many months that I missed the bits and pieces of it… Had it ever just came out “hey we are flying on a girls trip to here and doing this stuff for 5 days and $1500 bucks” it would have never happened. I thought it was all silly talk until the tickets were purchased. We both have room to improve our communications.

    She now understands how much this type of behavior can hurt the abandoned spouse and nothing like this will ever happen again. She is a wonderful person and we have a closer relationship than any of the other wives on this trip have. So she will NOT come home to an empty house. Although I told her any souvenirs will be destroyed upon her return. :)

  23. GC says:

    I basically agree with your advice on this, and generally think that either spouse should not do something that the other strongly opposes. But, having said that, I don’t think that all girls-only or guys-only trips are created equal. I take one or two weekend trips with my sisters every year – we talk, eat, work out, shop a little, and maybe sightsee a bit – totally boring stuff, but fun for us. My husband is fine with these trips – I think that he and our boys enjoy having the house to themselves and eating take-out all weekend! I would be very happy for my husband to take similar trips with his brothers or married male friends. So I think that the purpose of the trip, traveling companions, cost, distance, etc. all go into determining whether a trip is a good idea or not.

  24. a says:

    Wow. Whatever happened to trust or even respecting time with friends? Do people cheat? Absolutely. Do people go on vacations and do things they would not normally do when at home? Most definitely. Does this mean every single person who is in a relationship will automatically betray a relationship if they spend some time with their friends? No.
    I am actually shocked by your response as well as many others. I am in a long term relationship and we both have taken vacations without each other and I never thought he cheated or lied to me while away nor did I while I was away. Going to Vegas (or anywhere else for that matter) does not equate to ugly behaviours and it saddens me to think so many people think so poorly of those they love.

    Advice can be given by anyone and sadly so many will take it.

  25. BlackCat says:

    If the wife wants to go on a girls trip but gets upset or protests about the husband going on a guys trip, she either a) doesn’t trust him which, unless he has given her specific reason not to do so in the past, is a bad thing, or b) is projecting, which is a really, really bad thing. Think about it.

  26. Z says:

    I think a lot has to do with the fact that it’s Vegas, or some other city where men and women are in a glamorous place, where pickups happen all the time.

    An overnight trip to the huge outlet mall 4 hours away with the girls would be different, just as a fishing trip to Lake Nowhere with the guys is different.There’s nothing wrong with a little 100% non-sexual time with friends.

    But Vegas? Who goes to Vegas for 5 days of hanging with the girlfriends? A cabin/lodge is much cheaper (and safer to the marriages).

  27. cecil says:

    See, this woman is NOT single now.

    And therefore the expectations for her behavior and priorities have to change.

    The husband must speak his mind and not allow this. The wife should NOT want this or there is already a problem in the marriage.

  28. Linanati says:

    Either the husband should refuse to let her go or he should go with her. If she doesn’t like it, tough. A normal woman will usually back down if the man who regularly puts his semen in her calmly and firmly puts his foot down. If she isn’t at least somewhat submissive to him, I’d suggest an attitude of calm, firm leadership on his part plus more sex. If he shows his mastery of her in the bedroom, she should be easier to handle outside the bedroom.

    I wouldn’t recommend a separate guy’s vacation. That’s fighting like a girl and isn’t likely to impress her with his calm authority.

  29. ZLX1 says:

    It’s just disrespect from her to him, nothing less. Her position and message to him is pretty clear. F-You, I’ll do what I want, when I want and you’ll just take it. If I may pontificate for a second – because of divorce laws, many women know that they can pretty much pull whatever crap they want and still come out the winner, at least financially. The hubby always has the sword of Damocles hanging over his head. I digress again, sigh…

    Now back to this situation. Book a solo trip to Thailand. Giggle. But seriously doing something like that is really no solution, it’s just going to turn into tit for tat and degrade from there. In my opinion when separate vacations are happening and a lot of GNO, just start planning for the divorce. The message is clear – and the response from her to his upset over this trip idea was the proverbial middle finger. So there you go OP, your wife did you a favor, she told you EXACTLY where you rank on her totem pole, you rank well below her friends. How does that feel? I can tell you how it feels because I lived it myself for twelve years, it feels like shite doesn’t it?

    Let’s say she doesn’t in fact gobble a bunch of strange wiener in Vegas. He’s always – always is going to be wondering if he got the truth from her. If he goes to Thailand or whatever with the boys, she’s always going to be wondering what he did and if he told the truth. So even if neither party did anything out of bounds on their respective trips, one or both partners will always think they did, and in my opinion they will both value the marriage and each other less as a result and will therefore lower the threshold required to cheat on each other in the future. Please don’t do these things to each other. Just don’t.

    Girls Night Out, and separate vacations are just really bad news.

    I’ve been to boys’ nights out. Yeah there is some drinking, and sometimes some drunken attempts at flirting, but face it – most dudes are so clueless about dealing with women that your average hubby couldn’t get laid if he tried – so there’s not much danger.

    Also, it has been my experience that men (not 21 year old boys), but most regular men out for a night will generally reign in their buddies if things get out of hand. They do this both to help out their friend from doing something stupid but also because they don’t want to be pronounced guilty by association if something truly stupid happens, lol. Ladies if you married a player-ish sort, then yeah, keep that leash tight or go out with him, hehe.

    I think it is the opposite with a GNO. There is a always some 35-40 something divorced or married slut that just wants to egg on all the others to “let it all go”, “don’t let that man tell you how to live your life, etc.” The peer pressure and group think to act out to the detriment of your marriage can be enormous.

    Even a “good girl” can get pressured by her frenemies to do something bad after a couple drinks. And you know what? That is exactly what the queen bee bitch wants so that she has something juicy to gossip about, or to drag everyone down to her level of whorish-ness so that she doesn’t feel so bad about herself. It would be really rare IMO, for a woman in the middle of group think to stop her friend from doing something stupid, especially if they are all three states away and in someplace like Vegas. Why? Women don’t like to be judged, especially when it comes to sexual things, so they are less inclined to render judgement.

    I encourage those of you still married out there to feel very F-ing free to firmly remove people from your life and your spouse’s life that you damn well know do not have your interests, your spouse’s interests or the interest of your marriage as a consideration.

    Because after the Queen Bee Bitch instigates the drama, after all the drinks are drunk and the empty condom wrappers are on the floor and thoughts turn to “Oh my God, what did I do?” and the tears come, the Queen Bee is nowhere to be seen except to laugh at you behind your back and tell everyone what a slut you are. Then, you have to look in the mirror and face you…and then you go home and face your spouse and kids.

    Try to live by this rule: “Don’t do things that would make your kids ashamed you are their parent if they found out about it – and they will eventually…”

  30. I'm a man says:

    I’d be pissed. Its the nature of the trip that’s bothersome…I’ve encouraged my wife to spend time with female friends away from home, at a cottage for a weekend, camping or visiting family. Nothing wrong with good clean fun but I’ve done enough partying in my past to know shit happens when drinking and clubbing.

    Frankly i think my wife is more worried about what I would be doing while she is gone:-)

    I don’t like the idea of retaliation because that comes off as petty, I’d treat this as a re-mapping of boundaries without consent and its NOW party time for the boys starting today! Perhaps the poster might opt to snag some new clothes and disappear for a night or two before she leaves for her trip. A simple cheerful voice mail or txt message saying you won’t be home and offline for the night should do the trick. Go into the city and stay in a nice hotel. Live large and burn some cash.

    I’d also raise the discussion of an open relationship with limitations…, you’d been thinking about it and not cool with her banging random dudes with scabs on their dicks or some weird crap leaking out of their pee hole. This is graphic and nasty but that’s the point. You’re the safe guy and random dudes pose health threats. I’d be insisting she takes condoms too. You’re not giving her permission you’re protecting her health. Upon her return from the trip I’d insist on an STD test before sleeping with her again.

    And no, you don’t trust her since she disrespects your boundaries.

  31. Joe Commenter says:

    Any man or woman that gives more weight to the opinions of their friends than their spouse just simply does not understand what it takes to have a successful marriage. All long term successful marriages start w/ the idea that the spouse is more important than their friends and their family when the opinions of those differ from what the spouse wants.

    It really is as simple as making the marriage the #1 priority.

  32. Mark says:

    Oh, man, if only I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen a GNO go bad!

    The wife might not intend on cheating at all, but after a few drinks and some wild dancing, then all kinds of things happen. People who know a few things about picking up girl find married women on a night out to be very easy pickings–usually easier than the single girls.

    It’s one thing to go out with the girls and just chat and laugh together. It’s another thing entirely to go out partying and into environments where men specifically go to pick up women.

    Oh, and this is besides the fact that I’ve seen trips away “with the girls” used as covers for affairs more times than I like to remember—

    “Oh, you heard Mike from work was there with me? No, he was just in town for a conference! Nothing happened. Well, we had a few drinks. Okay, I did talk to him in his hotel room. But nothing happened! Alright, we kissed once, but that’s it! You want to know something? I love you, but I’m not in love with you . . . “.

  33. Carlotta says:

    Serious question here, why doesn’t he just say “NO!” If she still goes, then she went against him and the deal is basically off. She can kick and scream and everything, but I would literally think my Husband would have my stuff packed and waiting at the door if I told him this and he said no and I said I was going anyway. And the door would be locked. No kidding. He did it once to me before when I was very young and let a shit test get way out of control. Calmed my ass right down to be locked out of my own house in front fo the whole neighborhood and I NEVER PULLED IT AGAIN.

    And before people get crazy, he has gone on many trips with his friends but I haven’t because we have small children. If I wanted to go somewhere with friends in the future he would be fine with it as long as it wasn’t dangerous and it wasn’t ridiculous. She is booking a trip where people go to get drunk, drugged and to cheat. Period. She knows it, her friends know it and he knows it. Whether she personally wants to do those things or not, it is very, very likely she will be a party to one of them or witness them. Not safe and not for someone in a committed relationship. I think it is shitty! Once you get married the other person gets veto power or what is the point?

  34. Mark says:

    BTW, IMO very few things in a marriage are more alpha than making a firm, unpopular decision for the greater good and then sticking with it no matter what.

  35. BlackCat says:

    ZLX1 said: “I encourage those of you still married out there to feel very F-ing free to firmly remove people from your life and your spouse’s life that you damn well know do not have your interests, your spouse’s interests or the interest of your marriage as a consideration.”

    This is solid advice, and has been for well over 2,000 years:

    “A FARMER placed nets on his newly-sown plowlands and caught a number of Cranes, which came to pick up his seed. With them he trapped a Stork that had fractured his leg in the net and was earnestly beseeching the Farmer to spare his life. “Pray save me, Master,” he said, “and let me go free this once. My broken limb should excite your pity. Besides, I am no Crane, I am a Stork, a bird of excellent character; and see how I love and slave for my father and mother. Look too, at my feathers– they are not the least like those of a Crane.” The Farmer laughed aloud and said, “It may be all as you say, I only know this: I have taken you with these robbers, the Cranes, and you must die in their company.”
    Birds of a feather flock together.”

    -Aesop

    People come to think, act and be like their friends. If your spouse is associating with divorcers, sluts/players and/or people who are disrespectful to their partners or the partners of others, then guess what is going to happen to your spouse. Nip it in the bud.

  36. Rachael says:

    OMG you ppl have trust issues.
    I feel sorry for you.

    Thanks for confirming how men are shamed if they express discomfort at this sort of thing. You make my point for me.

  37. Been there, done that says:

    As a number of commentater’s have pointed out, it all depends on the type of trip that is planned.

    My wife has had weekends away with some of her friends and sisters, these were weekends away to do craft and hobby activites and were to a rented house/hall and I had no concerns at all about these weeeknds, likewise I have had weekends away hunting and or camping with my mates with no extra curicular activites taking place.

    Wife came to me and talked about a Girls Pacific Cruise holiday, which I put my foot down hard on. One of her friends is divorced, now in a LT relationship but has real attention seeking behaviour, and she was one of the people really trying to get my wife along. I made the point that if it was ok for her to go on a cruise, then I and my card night mates would also be looking to go on a boys cruise, at which point she was not at all keen on that happening.

    She then tried to run the ” nothing will happen ” argument, at which point I said ” something may as well happen, because I will assume that you are having ” fun ” on the cruise, then I will be having lots and lots of “fun” back at home”. That did put the fear into her that if she was going to go on the cruise then I absolutely would be having “activities” back at home.

    Some might say that that is being an asshole, but I didn’t care, if she thinks that going away for a girls trip like that is acceptable, without the partner, then I will treat the relationship with the same lack of respect that she is treating the relationship.

    Upshot was that she did not go on the trip, but the others did, and apart from some carry on at the time of the trip, about how her friends were having fun, there has not been much more said about it.

  38. enlightened1 says:

    BlackCat-
    I don’t disagree with your premise that people come to be like the people they associate with. However you took one big bite of judgement when you lumped “divorcers” (I’m assuming you mean people who’ve been divorced) in with “sluts/players and/or people who are disrespectful to their partners.” Many of us “divorcers” are actually divorced because we finally held the higher moral ground and had standards.

    Your comment bit a sore spot….

  39. JCclimber says:

    Wow, within 1 sentence I could always spot the (empowered, feministized, American) woman commenter.
    Some on here get it, so I’m not talking to you.
    Also, why is everyone assuming his wife is going to Vegas? The person asking the question never said Vegas. And it doesn’t matter where they’re going.
    OP, is your wife expressing ANY discomfort now?
    Also, I notice you said your betasized fellow husbands have all backed out, exactly as I predicted in my comments. I’m afraid your comment that you don’t want to put your wife through the same experience that you’re going through explicitly shows that you are still choking on the red pill.

    Most women thrive on the anxiety. You don’t have to turn on the dark triad and deliberately inspire the dread and anxious thoughts every day in order for this to work for you.
    And have you noticed that you’re still treating your wife like she’s a little child? She can go along with her friends, because she isn’t responsible or she didn’t know what kind of deal it would turn into. Once again, the woman is the victim of the big bad queen bee, and she could never stick up for herself and say “no”. And of course she must be protected from feeling exactly the same way as you’re feeling. I’m guessing some men prefer being married to perpetual children.

  40. BlackCat says:

    The wife might not intend on cheating at all

    This. This is a very, very important point.

    Most women naturally want to be swept off their feet, to be dominated (no, not hard BDSM, you aspie feminist… well, okay, maybe a little bit in that sense, too, heh), to give in to the moment and yield to emotion. How many times have you heard a woman say that, “I just couldn’t help myself,” “He/the mood/whatever was irresistible,” “I was swept off my feet,” etc.? Look at the most popular romance works (Harlequin-esque novels, 50 Shades of Grey, etc.). What percentage of those fit the above pattern? Damn near most of them? And if/when something like that happens, that hamster runs, and runs, and runs, because that’s what it’s for – to rationalize things.

    So why would a wife actively place herself in a location and situation where things can go wrong, amongst people who may see nothing wrong in “pushing the envelope” a bit? Why make her partner uncomfortable and worry?

    If one of his friends was a known ‘player’ type and they wanted to celebrate a birthday by taking a trip to any big city (doesn’t even have to be a Vegas type city), how would a wife feel about that, even if he told her to “trust him” and “promised not to do anything bad?” What if she protested and asked him not to go, but his friends teased him or otherwise convinced him to go anyway? i.e., What if he chose to go with “the guys” on a questionable itinerary trip over her protests, and with the knowledge that it was making her extremely uncomfortable? After all, fair’s fair, right?

    OMG you ppl have trust issues.

    Babe (euphemistically speaking, of course), trust’s got nothin’ to do with it.

  41. Rachael says:

    Athol i was not referring to the OP, the woman in that situation was sneaky and evasive and gave good reason not to be trusted. I was refering to the “absolutely do not trust Girls Night Out” comments here. The insinuation in the comments has been that all women cannot be trusted because they are basically whorish.
    This…
    “The wife might not intend on cheating at all, but after a few drinks and some wild dancing, then all kinds of things happen. People who know a few things about picking up girl find married women on a night out to be very easy pickings–usually easier than the single girls.”
    And this….
    “There is a always some 35-40 something divorced or married slut that just wants to egg on all the others to “let it all go”, “don’t let that man tell you how to live your life, etc.” ….
    Even a “good girl” can get pressured by her frenemies to do something bad after a couple drinks. And you know what? That is exactly what the queen bee bitch wants so that she has something juicy to gossip about, or to drag everyone down to her level of whorish-ness so that she doesn’t feel so bad about herself. It would be really rare IMO, for a woman in the middle of group think to stop her friend from doing something stupid, especially if they are all three states away and in someplace like Vegas. Why? Women don’t like to be judged, especially when it comes to sexual things, so they are less inclined to render judgement.”

    Broad generalizations I would say, and definitely lacking basic trust in women as a whole.

    do you really think that this level of mistrust is healthy in a marriage? My husband and I rarely holiday separately, But we do understand the desire to get away with girls, or get away with the boys occasionally. The issue of ‘how do I know you won’t drink too much, and start behaving like a whore.” does not arise because we trust each other implicitely

  42. Rachael says:

    Crap I wasn’t finished and I accidentally hit the post button.
    All I wanted to say is that if your wife has given you no reason to NOT trust her then expressing discomfort over such a thing implies a lack of trust and responding to that lack of trust is not necessarily about shaming.
    I am not as eloquent as you, so cannot express my true intention as readily. I hope I at least redeemed myself somewhat.

  43. Ben says:

    First time I’ve disagreed with Athol, and also the majority of the comments here. The whole idea of forbidding the girls trip shows massive insecurity. Not sexy. A man showing that he’s paranoid about his partner cheating on him is just demonstrating his lack of self confidence, and giving his partner the message that he couldn’t replace her if he wanted or needed to.

    Guys, when your woman suggests that she may be spending a night or 2 away, just say something along the lines of ‘that sounds like it’ll be a fun trip, and it’ll be nice to have the house to myself for a few nights, maybe I’ll arrange a few beers with the boys while you’re away’. The implicit trust you show her will make her less likely to betray it; the average decent human would feel way more guilty about betraying the trust that someone gives you than they would about cheating on a partner who is suspicious of them. And the whole positive attitude you show about her being away will remind her that you CAN live a fun life without her, and that she’s not the only option in your life if you so chose; is this not the whole philosophy behind MMSL?

  44. Phinn says:

    “OMG you ppl have trust issues. I feel sorry for you.”

    Yes, my “trust issue” is that I do not trust people who announce that they are untrustworthy, and then dare me to ignore it.

  45. Mark says:

    Ben, there’s trust and then there’s foolishness. I’m not calling you foolish, however not everyone is trustworthy and not every situation is appropriate to every marriage. If a spouse’s trust and openness is all that’s required for a successful marriage, then virtually no one would ever have any problems. Everyone would be having great sex within their marriages on a regular basis and never lusting after the girl or guy next door. However, the sad reality is that lines must be drawn and each spouse occasionally has to bring the other one back from the brink of a stupid decision.

    When it comes to GNOs or trips away, these quite often involve drunken partying at clubs—from what I’ve seen, though it does depend on the demographic. It’s not a bold and confident alpha hubby who cheerfully allows his wife to attend such events; it’s a fool who is asking for trouble. You might as well let her chat online to ex-boyfriends late at night and then meet them for “coffee”.

    Confidence and trust are great assets, but they are not substitutes for appropriate boundaries.

  46. Mark says:

    BTW, my wife goes away with her sisters every so often. They have even travelled internationally on their own. I’m fine with this, because I know they will be okay together and they won’t be going into situations that are no good. But my wife is also incredible conservative. I am by far the more adventurous one in our relationship.

    I used to travel a lot for work and every time I travelled I’d be at a party somewhere. I spent about three months every year in hotels around the world. I’d be hit on by girls every so often and I’d be in situations where it would have been incredibly easy to have an affair without being caught. My wife kept in touch while I was away and, while I still could have cheated if I really wanted to, having a safe routine with a lot of contact and openness kept her okay with it.

  47. Badger says:

    “That isn’t meant to be heard as a threat, just the simple reality that you’re not going to feel the same about her.”

    This gets roundabout to a key idea in the LTR sex life, the difference between refusing sex because you’re pissed about something, and refusing sex because you’re not attracted to your spouse at the time/your body is just not interested in getting intimate with them at the moment.

    The former is a move outside the bounds of reasonable marital rules. The latter is the human sexual system working, more or less, as intended.

    I’ve said it more than once to a woman – “[that thing you did today/tonight] was just a really big turnoff, I don’t feel like sex right now.”

    It’s not a threat, or an admonishment, just a statement of fact that certain behavior -> Badger goes back into his sett for the night.

    One problem with the former attitude is that you can quickly get your rational side to talk your visceral side out of being interested in sex. If you train yourself to associate displeasure with your spouse with a lack of sexual activity, the Pavlovian conditioning takes over and you become a sexually shut-down harpy before you know it.

  48. ZLX1 says:

    Trust is good. Trust is fine, just don’t be willfully naive. When you are in a relationship with someone you have a truth bias towards them in that you will naturally always want to believe the best about them and to take their word on something as true. In many respects this is a noble thing. However, the flip side of this truth bias is it can make it very easy for the other person to lie to you if they should choose to take advantage of that trust.

    Ask anyone who has been on the receiving end of an affair or a major deception and they will often be utterly shocked to learn just how long all that monkey business has been going on and the extent of it. Despite the utterly ridiculous stories and excuses their spouse made up along the way, their truth bias won out over uncomfortable gut feelings and they plowed ahead with the blinders on.

    It seems only when it becomes blatantly obvious, a confession happens or someone is caught red handed that there is enough psychological shock to tear off the blinders and neutralize the truth bias. It takes a shock like that because you don’t want to believe you married someone that would do those kinds of things. Sad truth is, lots of people will do those kinds of things. Some more willingly than others, some only in very certain circumstances, etc., but there is always the potential within everyone of us to perpetrate a cruel act, with malice and planning, or just in a moment of drunken retardedness. The smart play is to not put yourself in such a circumstance, or to allow your spouse to be put into or to place themselves in situations with that kind of potential.

    To pretend as if people do not do these types of things to each other every single day is absurd. If Athol had a dollar for every time he’s probably heard “My wife or husband would never…” followed a few weeks later by “I can’t believe she did that…” Well, I suppose he would have been able to be doing MMSL full time within the first few weeks.

    I do believe that trust is essential to a relationship and that it is a good thing. However, I also believe that sometimes people out of ignorance, intent or whatever motivation can place themselves into a situation, unwittingly or not, that puts the marriage at risk. If either spouse sees such a situation developing I see nothing wrong at all with the other partner nipping it in the bud. It’s the smart and “alpha” thing to do (for all of you insecure types obsessed with labels – lolz) because you have a heck of a lot to lose if things go bad, and I’m speaking to both men and women here.

    Oh and another Alpha quality (gender neutral here) is that Alpha people know their value and they don’t accept other people intentionally doing things to shite on them, especially after they have clearly stated to the other person that the behavior is not acceptable. They don’t accept poor treatment from others because they don’t have to.

    Be like Ronald Regan – “Trust buy verify…” Don’t think for an instant that your spouse is above acting out poorly. Human behavior for thousands of years would tend to indicate that they are not the exception to the rule, not matter how “good” they are or how much you trust them, etc. EVERYONE, can be weak in one moment, everyone can do something horrible that they regret. You have a responsibility to your marriage, your partner and your kids to guard your marriage like a hawk.

    No one else is going to do it for you. Not your spouse’s friends, not the neighbors, not your pastor, not your parents, not your partner’s parents. Y-O-U, are responsible for protecting your marriage and when one or the other partner is not shouldering their share of the responsibility, you have to step up and assume command. Sometimes that means you have to be the “a-hole”. So be it.

    If they continue to shirk their responsibility towards the relationship, well then, they have told you what it means to them and what you mean to them, so I think you know what you should be doing with that information…

  49. Badger says:

    I wonder if people know what Vegas is like. I’m younger than a lot of the readers, but I’ve NEVER known a trip to Vegas involving anyone I know, male or female, where at least one person didn’t have a romp with a stranger. People can cheat anywhere, but there’s just no illusion in my mind that a “girls’ trip to Vegas” is going to involve somebody slutting it up. And that sort of behavior is contagious.

    Unless it’s a trip of married couples where nobody is without their spouse for the bulk of the time, the group is going to get pulled into a meat-market situation where sex is on the offer for anyone who gets the urge to say yes.

  50. Doug says:

    Came here to say what Rachel said. I was going to say “wanna know how I know you’re female,” but that would be petty. Also, note that that commenter was in a LTR not married.

    To add my own two bits to the story, my wife pulled that GWO to Vegas crap about a year ago. Fortunately right after I found this place. She offered all the arguments: it’s just so and so from work…. nothing is going to happen… it’s not in my nature, etc. I said a firm NO, and kept at it. I recognized a shit test as such, and was not going to put up with it. Only a few months before, I would have blue pilled and just dealt with the dread and the slime feeling forever.
    Sure, she bitched and moaned, and complained, and even said “I can’t believe you’re putting you foot down! Over this!”
    And damn straight I was. She called her mom, her friends, her brother and tried to get support and to make everyone see how unreasonable I was being. Didn’t work. I told her I didn’t mind the girl time, combination of the venue and girl time made me uncomfortable. She could have her friends over, and I’d go hang out with my father in law, how did that sound? No? Ok then.

    In the end, it overall improved her respect for me, by standing up to the shit test.

  51. Draggin says:

    Response to Ben:

    From looking at the infidelity rate in marriage, it seems that a lot of spouses had reason to be insecure and would have been better off to have set some strong boundaries around who their spouses were allowed to spend time with and where. Ben does have a point that not allowing your partner to go away may be due to insecurity. It works both ways too, as you see from the wives that thought it was a good idea for them to go away, but wanted nothing to do with their husband doing the same. (Projecting?) The problem with worrying about appearing insecure in a relationship is that it is a slippery slope. If letting her go away with the girls shows your security, then letting her go away with the guys would be even better because that shows you are really secure, right? Of course that is pushing the point, but where you draw the line should be up to each couple, with emphasis on the individual that is being asked to do the trusting.

    In my case, my ex had an emotional affair with her “friend” and almost left me. We worked on our marriage, I forgave her and worked on my issues, and through counselling allowed/forced myself to trust her again. Part of that was was learning a bit of game online. In alphaing up, I allowed her to continue talking to her friend as everyone proposed that showing my insecurity would be unattractive and diminish whatever amount of respect she had for me. Of course she also insisted over and over that I could trust her, that she would never do something like that again, and that she had learned her lesson. So of course the emotional affair became more physical as they continued to spend time together. Stupid me. In hindsight I should have put my foot down and, instead of viewing it as exhibiting insecurity, reframed it as “This person is bad for our marriage. This is unacceptable to me and you need to make a choice here. Work on your relationship with me (and kids) or on your relationship with them. You can’t have both.” I learned too late that Alpha leads and decides what is good for themselves and their family and holds that line. Bending over trying to appease her just delayed the inevitable.

    To sum up, if your main concern is appearing insecure to your wife, then likely you are an example of the person that actually needs to be putting your foot down, as you are in a position of low respect and therefore she is more open to cheating on you. In relationships where the wife truly respects the man and is afraid of displeasing/losing him, she would go out of her way to avoid any situations where her fidelity could be questioned.

  52. Badger says:

    ““With her mother” is a major safety factor there.”

    Even that is losing signal power. I see a lot of 45-55yo cougar moms at bachelorette parties with their daughters.

  53. Jane says:

    My first husband and I vacationed separately. NOthing inappropriate ever happened on any trips. We had different interests and limited money, so it made sence to vacation separately we thought. Looking back, I think the fact that we didn’t spend this crutial “fun” time together was a harbinger of death in our marriage. It had nothing to do with infidelity. We trusted each other completely and I don’t think that was misplaced trust. But I think that choosing to spend those PRECIOUS vacation days with people other than each other, was a sign of how little we enjoyed each other’s company and vacationing apart created further distance.

    That being said, once a year I take a weekend to spend with my siblings. We don’t bring spouses or kids. Just us, to maintain that bond between us. I think we’re all better for it. Nothing terrible happens, we mostly eat and reminise. If my husband put a stop to these, I would be seriously heartbroken and angry. Although all the spouses mope a little bit about us leaving, they tend to think it’s “really nice that you guys are so close, i wish i had that with my family.” and the hard feelings come only from being left out. I also occasionally spend the night with a girlfriend who lives a 4 hour drive away when her husband goes out of town. We drink wine, paint our nails and stay up all night talking. No offence to my husband, but he wouldn’t fit in in that situation. I absolutely LOVE this time and I’d be heartbroken if he didn’t let it happen.

    I’m wondering everyone’s feeling on bachelor/bachelorette parties? This was a major area of contention in my relationship when my best friend got married and was responsible for planning it. Although I had no interest in doing anything that would make MY husband uncomfortable – the bride wanted a stripper. Hubs flipped about it. I felt completely trapped. The maid of honor can’t skip out on the bachelorette party! I was either going to make my husband pissed or the bride pissed….I basically felt like he was forcing me to be “rude.” We eventually happened upon a comprimise that made everyone sort of happy. but i’m wondering how others feel about this? I don’t want my hubs going to strip clubs normally, but I’m not bother by him going at a bachelor party, so flipping the script wasn’t helpful….

    Also if my husband jumped for joy when i left for the weekend, I’d really be hurt….and probably glad to be leaving. I like that he’s a little mopey and misses me…I’m probably terrible for thinking that, but I really do need to be needed by him…

  54. Changed Man says:

    I agree with many of the posts stating the OP’s situation could be problematical or a possible red flag, but there’s also a bunch of broad-brush painting going on.

    My take:
    1. If both partners are in a ‘conscious’ marriage (i.e., red-pilled) and respectful of their partner’s boundaries, then a GNO or ‘girl’s road trip’ doesn’t necessarily imply that it’s a fitness test or there will be shenanigans. But if your marriage is struggling and you’re currently working the MAP, then you should acknowledge your gut and assert your discomfort.
    2. As ZLX1 properly pointed out, people who are not ‘friends of the marriage’ are not to be trusted. If there are no friends of the marriage on this trip, then it’s a potential breeding ground for trouble.

  55. Ben says:

    @Other Ben: Umm… this is going to be confusing if you and I are going to be posting here under the same name. Especially since I sort of disagree with just about everything you said. How do you feel about being called “Other Ben” from now on? (-:

    Agree with the many people who have said that the environment and her traveling companions play a huge part in determining whether a girls’ outing is acceptable. I’m lucky in that I know most of my lady’s close friends pretty well (and one of them is my sister, so I know she’s got my back). They don’t favor the “dress to the nines, go barhopping, have five drinks too many, and see who gets hit on the most” sort of outing, so when my lady is out with them, I can be pretty well assured that she’s not putting herself in a situation where she’d be tempted to do something she wouldn’t otherwise do.

    And she ALSO knows that if anything I wouldn’t approve of DID happen, it would 100% definitely get back to me, leaving that much less room for the Rationalization Hamster to run. There are two justifications that people’s (not just women’s) hamsters love to trot out when they’re faced with the temptation to cheat: 1.) “He’ll never find out, it’ll be like it never happened,” and 2.) “He must not care or he wouldn’t have let me go.”

    You can pre-emptively shut down both of those rationalizations by only being okay with outings that include a de facto chaperone and checking up with that person after. You don’t have to be obnoxious about it: after a girls’ outing, you just ask the most trustworthy person in the group other than your S.O. how it went, and make sure your S.O. knows you did it. In my case, “I talked to my sister today, it sounds like you girls had fun at her house the other night.” In other words: I know where you were, who you were with, and what you were doing. I am satisfied that nothing went on that I wouldn’t approve of, and if I weren’t, we would be having a very different conversation. She does the same thing if I go out with the boys. If I tell her I’m going out to poker night, she can be well assured that that’s all that’s happening.

    Trust but verify. It’s as simple as that. That’s what I’ve always done, so I’ve never HAD to face a situation where I’ve had to put my foot down and forbid a trip. When she does go out with her friends, I don’t just tell her “Have fun!” I make sure I know where she’s going and what she’s doing and who she’s doing it with, and she feels all the more valued because of it.

  56. Anacaona says:

    If one of his friends was a known ‘player’ type and they wanted to celebrate a birthday by taking a trip to any big city (doesn’t even have to be a Vegas type city), how would a wife feel about that, even if he told her to “trust him” and “promised not to do anything bad?”

    Oh this reminds me that my cad Dominican friends offered to throw a bachelor party for my gringo fiance. I was pretty much “Hell No!” I love him and trust him but I’m sure that their lack of morals wouldn’t had minded enabling a mistake that night and alcohol is not to be trusted. Funny enough when his good and all married friends offered going on a trip to Vegas as a similar bachelor party. I was like “Have fun honey, take pics” Because I knew his friends were going to just have “clean good manly fun” . The company you keep does says a lot about you, IMO, YMMV.

  57. Dan says:

    The answer to the separate vaction request is simple….you tell her
    that if she goes to pack ALL of her clothes as there won’t be a coming
    back. It’s just that simple….and whether she goes or not you need to
    see a lawyer, start making plans and preparing for the worst because
    no woman/wife/GF is going to broach this subject unless she’s already
    had a long hard conversation with herself about you, the relationship
    and the next swinging dick she’s hunting for.

  58. SentWest says:

    I have a similar dilemma but with work trips. I’m female and I work in a virtual position from home, so the rest of my team is scattered around the US and my boss is usually in another state. We have meetings somewhere in the middle for training and what have you every few months. I’ve been traveling once a month or so for work since I was in my early 20′s, so no big deal for me, same old same old.

    My fiance though has major problems with it. He’s never traveled very much (been on a plane 2-3 times in his life) and sees it as me going on all these “fun” vacations (where I sit in boring meetings for 10 hours a day), and doing all these fun things with all these men, as I’m in a male-dominated field. It really gets bad when the company organizes a dinner or an outing to go with the meeting. I don’t feel I can refuse the social events (which are mild stuff like going to a restaurant or a baseball game) because they are an excellent networking tool, and I would look like an asshole if I were the only one who refused to go all the time. I do go, but don’t drink or behave in any unprofessional way, and text the man the whole time so he knows what’s going on. Half the time though, I’m sending texts like “I’m going to the restaurant” and I get something back like “yeah right.” FYI if I’m actually going somewhere cool (ie. not middle of nowhere Kansas) I always try to get him to come with, but he never has the time.

    Anyone have any advice on how to get him to stop freaking the hell out like I’m going on a girls trip to Vegas (which I would never do)? We’ve been playing this game for three years now, and I’ve never misbehaved in any way, but the week before and week after my business trips are hell with him treating me like I’m about to go to a week long orgy.

  59. Ted D says:

    @Jane – I’m not really a fan of “gentlemen’s” clubs. I don’t see the point in getting all riled up by women I’m not going to have sex with. That being said, it isn’t really difficult for me to give up the standard bachelor party “stripper” event, and I most certainly would be upset if my SO participated in the female equivalent. So perhaps it is unfair (since i’m not really giving anything up) but that is a boundary I have and clearly stated. The last bachelor party I attended started at a club and moved to the strip joint. I simply said my goodbyes and left. I’ve seen too many examples of that kind of behavior ending badly, and as has been pointed out here already, the best way to keep from doing something stupid is to stay out of places where stupid stuff happens. And that is exactly how I stated it to my SO. It isn’t that I don’t trust her, but to me intentionally putting herself in a situation where she will likely be tempted is just disrespectful to me and our relationship. To be honest, I really do trust my SO, and I believe that she would not jeopardize our relationship. But even if she sat there blindfolded, I would still be upset for the lack of respect just being there shows. OUR relationship comes before all her (and my) other relationships, with the exception of our children. By default that means if her friends (or mine) are doing something that goes against the intent of our relationship, the friends lose. If she ever chooses her friends over us, that is a clear indication to me that I should start checking out.

  60. deti says:

    SentWest:

    How important is your fiance to you? How important to you is marriage to him?

    Marriage comes first, before the job, before work, even before the kids. If you value him, you’ll find another job that doesn’t give him pause. If not, you’ll continue to do what you’re doing.

    Marriage is either important, or it is not. There is no in between. You say “but what about my career?” What about it? Is your fiance important to you, or not? Are his feelings, his wants, his needs, his desires, important to you or not?

    And I’m not talking here about marriage in the abstract. I’m talking about marriage TO HIM, to this one man. Is he important to you , or not?

    When you marry, you will have to make hard choices. Might as well learn how to do that now.

  61. zdfbdbd says:

    I generally like the advice on here, but I dunno about this one. So, 5 days away with her girlfriends is no bueno. What about 3 days? 1 day? An afternoon?

    There’s a kernel of disrespect implicit in going on a trip and not inviting your spouse, I suppose. Reason # 325235 to not get married in the first place.

  62. Ben says:

    @SentWest:

    It sounds like you’re doing everything right. Constant texts, inviting him to come along so that he can see for himself that nothing shady is happening, all that stuff. The only other thing I can think of is that if you’re giving any indication that these trips are something you look forward to, flip that around and make a point of talking about how much you’re dreading going away / how boring it’s going to be / how much of a hassle it is to pack / how much you hate sleeping in a hotel room and the beds are uncomfortable and the food is terrible / how much you wish you could just stay home instead. You could also bring along a laptop with a webcam and video Skype him from your (conspicuously empty) hotel room every night, I suppose.

    The thing is, if you’re already doing the texting and inviting him along, just doing that little bit extra probably isn’t going to make the difference. At this point, you’ve probably got to start asking yourself if this paranoia of his isn’t the outward form of some larger problem. If you’re sure that you’ve done nothing to give him cause to worry and your relationship is otherwise strong, then is there something about him that predisposes him toward irrational jealousy and paranoia? Self-esteem problems? Weed habit? Neurotic personality in general? Mom cheated on his Dad when he was little?

    Whatever it is, probably better that you figure it out and deal with it now rather than after the wedding. Good luck to you.

  63. deti says:

    @ Rachael:

    “Broad generalizations I would say, and definitely lacking basic trust in women as a whole.”

    “do you really think that this level of mistrust is healthy in a marriage? My husband and I rarely holiday separately, But we do understand the desire to get away with girls, or get away with the boys occasionally. The issue of ‘how do I know you won’t drink too much, and start behaving like a whore.” does not arise because we trust each other implicitely”

    “All I wanted to say is that if your wife has given you no reason to NOT trust her then expressing discomfort over such a thing implies a lack of trust and responding to that lack of trust is not necessarily about shaming.”

    Generalizations become generalizations because, generally speaking, they are true. Sure you can cry NAWALT all you like. No man here or anywhere should take a chance that his wife/GF/LTR is the exception to the rule. GNOs, separate vacations — uh, NO.

    A woman telling her husband she is going on a separate vacation or a GNO and she doesn’t care what he thinks is saying “I will not submit to you. I am in open rebellion against you, your leadership and this marriage. I am more important than you. My wants, needs, desires and feelings are more important than you, or this marriage.”

    The proper response to such brazen, in-your-face rebellion is “OK. Go ahead and go. When you get back, your personal effects will be packed up in a storage unit with the first month’s rent paid. The bank accounts will be separated out and the locks on the house changed. My lawyer will be in touch.”

  64. DG says:

    Deti – I usually agree with you, but here I have to say “it depends”.

    One, having the final say is not license to have it your way all the time when it comes to the other people around you. An alpha / leader will only have followers as long as their needs are met. A steady stream of income qualifies as need. Also – as some here have noted – it depends on the purpose and the atmosphere of the trip, and the degree of trust. It’s highly variable. Factor in that she’s been doing this since long before they met – has her history of impulse control/etc. acceptable within that context? Last, some guys are insecure. Jealousy and emotional neediness are not solely the province of women.

    So I don’t know the full story, but if they’re dependent on that income, they either need to cut back (and gain more free time at the expense of operating budget), find her a new job that doesn’t involve travel (and since he’s insisting, he should support her in that, AND realize that that may STILL involve cutting back, as part of her income is based on availability), or figure out what he’s afraid of, and if it’s a rational fear in this case. If not, he needs to get over it. She did invite him along – was it honest or did she do it knowing he wouldn’t go?

    I just think it’s too gray an area with too many unknowns to assume the guy doesn’t have his own issues, “nice guy” or otherwise (lord knows I’ve had mine and am still working on them), and to be so absolute. He wants to decide if she can work in a certain environment that may be gray-area, he also needs to accept the responsibility of dealing with the consequences. He always has the choice of saying “this is not acceptable, but there are no options that you don’t work in this job where we can make it work as a functional family.”

    But then everyone has different boundaries, or we wouldn’t be discussing what trips are valid, and which trips aren’t.

  65. Wendy says:

    @ Badger: “I wonder if people know what Vegas is like. I’m younger than a lot of the readers, but I’ve NEVER known a trip to Vegas involving anyone I know, male or female, where at least one person didn’t have a romp with a stranger.”

    So I was in Vegas in 2000 and 2001. Group of 9 girls. Stayed at the Bellagio both times, we shared a double suite. We got there midafternoon, mingled and catched up with each other as we settled into the suite, preceeded to take a solid couple hours to get ready to go out. Dressed nice but not slutty, no one was as at any risk of flashing a panty or spilling a boob. Midsize heels since we knew we were gonna be walking all night. Go to Dinner, get a couple of coctails with dinner, we all walk perfectly balanced as we head to Circque Du Soleil, then we went to New New York and I don’t remember what other show type thing. Then we took over a black jack table, since it was 9 of us. Awesome to have the table to ourselves, the dealer very cordial and fun. Some of us are playing some of us are watching the game, piggy backing on the bets and chatting away. How many guys do you know that are gonna approach a table of 9 girls chatting with each other and playing by themselves. That’s right, zero. We got the various random shout outs, and other from-a- distance guy noises, very easy to ignore. Some of us had another drink while at Black Jack, some didn’t. It was past 1 am by the time we were done with Black Jack and we all were more than ready to head back to our suite and spend another hour chatting away until we fell asleep. We did not set foot in a club. Sleep in the next morning until whenever we wanted. Wake up, spend a solid 2 plus hours getting ready and packing up, go down, eat at the all-you-can-eat buffett. Leave town. That’s how that went down when I did it twice with the same group of girls. I am still in close contact with 4 of those girls, we are all married with kids. Now all you need is 1 girl in the group wanting to get the guys’ attention and open up access by returning a shout out, or approaching a guy. Then it is fucked. The rest of the girls are playing defensive all night. Girls, don’t ever drink if you find yourself in the company of a girl like that. Get sparkling water with a lemon and ice. As a married woman, I don’t know what a friend like that will bring to your plate, but it is certainly the friend you do not want at a girls night out or girls trip.

    But a group of girls that is keeping a tight circle of girl only, clean fun, and ignoring the rest of the environment, is a pretty solid barrier for cocky jerks, who won’t be bothered, and the shy dudes won’t touch it with a ten foot pole either.

    Or maybe I am just a marcian from outter space with alien friends who don’t go fucking insane anytime they are out of the sight of their husbands / SOs

  66. Anacaona says:

    @Wendy
    Is funny but your experiences are not that alien up to the “the crazy one ruins the fun for the rest” that have to spent the whole night making sure they are not mistaken for crazy ones too, and she then wonders why no one invites them a second time. Not that it doesn’t happen the way the guys say but again the company you keep and all that, YMMV.

  67. NG says:

    @ Wendy & Anacaona,

    Well add me to the Marcian club. I’ve done Vegas and Atlantic city with a group (10) girls for birthdays. Half married/in rlsps, the rest single. We went to a club once (no one got drunk or hooked up), a couple of shows, shopping and sightseeing. So, I definitely agree about the company you keep being a factor.

    As for the guys who think going to Vegas means a woman is a 1/4 step away from letting her true whorish/sluttish self out, if she really is an undercover whore/slut, she doesn’t need Vegas to become one. It will come out whether she’s in the middle of nowhere rural USA with a population of 50.

  68. Kiwi the Geek says:

    @SentWest
    If a secure, confident man had concerns about your trips, he wouldn’t be making a fuss like this — he simply wouldn’t be engaged to marry you in the first place. I would take this as a major red flag. A man who marries a woman expecting to change her is acting like a woman, and you’ve already seen how FRUSTRATING that is.

    If you insist on marrying this guy in spite of this issue, you do need to be prepared to submit to his leadership. This is why it’s SO important to choose a husband wisely — he’s steering the ship you’re on.

  69. Kiwi the Geek says:

    Actually, frustration isn’t the right word. When a guy acts like a woman, it’s a huge attraction-killer.

    I suspect that if you read game blogs awhile, you’ll realize that this guy acts like a woman. Just extrapolating from my experience.

  70. Bb says:

    @SentWest

    “Anyone have any advice on how to get him to stop freaking the hell out like I’m going on a girls trip to Vegas (which I would never do)? We’ve been playing this game for three years now, and I’ve never misbehaved in any way, but the week before and week after my business trips are hell with him treating me like I’m about to go to a week long orgy.”

    You’ve been doing this since you’re early 20′s, and I’m assuming you were in this field when you started dating. Has he always had a problem with the travel associated with your work, or is this something that has cropped up lately? Did it change suddenly? If so, can you pin point when/why and then talk and really address those concerns together?

    So you need to ask yourself the hard questions:

    1. Are you going to continue in this field and this line of work?

    2. What happens if he’s never comfortable with this idea? Are you willing to change fields / work situations?

    3. Are you and he straight up discussing what’s happening, and why each of you are feeling this way and how to manage it and working together for a solution? Or is it a reactive / passive / reactive chain between you? That’s an unsustainable, wearing dynamic in a marriage. Figure out how to work out solutions together now before you get married.

    As others noted, you really need to ask yourself the hard questions before you get married. You both have to be able to handle life situations like this comfortably, and you’re definitely not together on this.

  71. Doug1111 says:

    Athol, your advice would normally work, EXCEPT he already tried and failed to talk her out of it.

    Even amplifying and planning a similar trip to the Caribbean hasn’t stopped her from planning to go on THIS particular trip, just future other planned trips.

    He didn’t try in the proper way. He tried to argue her out of it. Instead he should express his feelings about it. It’s not alright and don’t do it if you want to have a continuing relationship with me.

    This is girls night out with divorced and single women x100. Tons of cheating goes on in Vegas by all accounts. They even market it, as Athol implies. “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.” It’s suspicious as all hell. I’d be pissed if she even asked me, and I’d let her know that. I’d say you’ve got to be kidding. Absolutely not. Further don’t expect to be sleeping in our bed when you get back if you go in spite of my telling you I consider it a major crossing of the line.

  72. Doug1111 says:

    Anacaona—

    Not trying to stir the pot just asking. I haven’t done my devotional trips to any of those places yet (being married to a non religious twihater) but if the opportunity comes I would like to know what to do, I wouldn’t mind booking a trip for both but I don’t think my husband will love me more if I did, in fact the opposite.

    Any kind of trip apart carries some risk, but it’s vastly less and the woman’s motivations are vastly less suspect when it’s to somewhere that not associated with casual sex and licentiousness. I would think that the first place most American women would think of taking a short vacation to if they wanted to try to pull casual sex with a hot guy that runs little risk of getting back to their husbands with any hard facts, is Los Vegas. They even market themselves for that: “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.”

  73. Doug1111 says:

    GC–

    I basically agree with your advice on this, and generally think that either spouse should not do something that the other strongly opposes. But, having said that, I don’t think that all girls-only or guys-only trips are created equal. I take one or two weekend trips with my sisters every year – we talk, eat, work out, shop a little, and maybe sightsee a bit – totally boring stuff, but fun for us. My husband is fine with these trips – I think that he and our boys enjoy having the house to themselves and eating take-out all weekend! I would be very happy for my husband to take similar trips with his brothers or married male friends. So I think that the purpose of the trip, traveling companions, cost, distance, etc. all go into determining whether a trip is a good idea or not.

    Good points. I have no problem with my wife before she became ex having those sorts of family trips either and she did a few times, or my current live together gf. She does them less, because her family is fairly close and we see them sometimes on weekends, mainly at the big holidays.

  74. Doug1111 says:

    OP–

    I have decided to treat this as a shit test and am agreeing and amplifying now that I have failed to talk her out of it (they scheduled it pretty quickly without much more than a couple of mentions).

    It is a shit test of a sort, in part (though it’s probably a mostly trying to be able to cheat motivation), but in either case agreeing and amplifying is absolutely the WRONG response. It is in part a test of your backbone, which is a type of shit test. But agreeing and amplifying to her request to be given your ok to her having a near perfect situation for cheating if she runs into an attractive enough guy in a very target rich and anonymous environment, about the most so for tourists in the country, is NOT the way to go. Say what Athol at the end of his advice to you advised you to say – verbatim. Don’t back down whatsoever.

    Saying you forbid it in this feminist saturated cultural environment isn’t the best approach esp. since you undoubtedly haven’t laid down a framework of anti-feminist views with her, and gotten her acceptance. Flip the script. Imagine your telling her you wanted to go to Vegas with five guys some single and some married, without wives or gf’s. You think she’s be ok? She wouldn’t despite the fact that if she wants to have casual sex with a guy above her sex rank it’s far more likely she can, than you can have sex with a girl one or two sex ranks below yourself (due to female hypergamy, and the male lack of it, for casual sex.)

  75. Doug1111 says:

    Timegistus–

    Coming home from an all-girl Vegas vacation to an empty house might get the message across.

    BAD move. Why should he move out? He should change the locks and put her clothes in storage.

  76. Doug1111 says:

    Mr. Burgundy –

    OK, how would you frame it if you were the guy who has already had his road trip with the boys? I speak as someone who recently did just this and had a great time. Nothing outside the wedding vows occurred, honest! But it was certainly wilder than a family vacation.

    So I’m not sure how I could say Mrs B doing the same thing is unacceptable, without being a total hypocrite…

    A road trip with guys is very different than a single and married girls five day trip to Vegas. They don’t call it sin city for nothing. The only sin isn’t gambling. It’s also cheating on your spouse with like minded married and single people. They even market it as such.

    It’s girls night out to big city bars/clubs times 100. If non obese married women want fast casual sex or a five day fling they can easily get it with guys of a higher sex rank, esp. in Vegas.

  77. Doug1111 says:

    a-

    I am actually shocked by your response as well as many others. I am in a long term relationship and we both have taken vacations without each other and I never thought he cheated or lied to me while away nor did I while I was away. Going to Vegas (or anywhere else for that matter) does not equate to ugly behaviours and it saddens me to think so many people think so poorly of those they love.

    You’re deluded.

    It was not long ago absolutely not acceptable for a married woman to go on a vacation other than with family without her husband. It should remain so. I’ve never had a woman who lived with me want that, nor did my ex wife. Yeah she visited her parents in Florida a couple of times for brief periods without me, long weekends, but not much. We also went together a couple of times.

    This whole girls night out fairly recent phenomenon is pernicious and largely unacceptable.

  78. Doug1111 says:

    Rachael–

    OMG you ppl have trust issues.
    I feel sorry for you.

    For very good reasons when a wife wants a combination single and married girls without husbands or bf’s vacation to sin city Vegas. Anyone who doesn’t realize this is a PC / feminist indoctrinated fool.

    I feel disdain for you.

  79. Doug1111 says:

    Carlotta–

    You’re gold girl!!!

  80. Doug says:

    DG

    FWIW – I’d say that for guys, it is perfectly legitimate to do a fishing or camping trip on your own or a handful of guy friends. OTOH – the environment is completely different from a girls night out, or a trip where there are plenty of people of the interesting sex, with inhibitions cut loose.

    Completely different. The opportunity and likelyhood of cheating in such a trip is lower than when at home, not higher. Also, cheating is easy as hell for women who have a mind to do it, but vastly harder for men, on a quick time basis, due to sex differences.

    Women who want to go on girls only, single and married, five day vacation to Vegas have a strong likelihood of having an admitted or unadmitted but real likelihood of wanting to, if someone attractive enough shows interest. And Vegas is the place for that to happen fast, for tourists.

  81. Doug says:

    Badger–

    I wonder if people know what Vegas is like. I’m younger than a lot of the readers, but I’ve NEVER known a trip to Vegas involving anyone I know, male or female, where at least one person didn’t have a romp with a stranger. People can cheat anywhere, but there’s just no illusion in my mind that a “girls’ trip to Vegas” is going to involve somebody slutting it up. And that sort of behavior is contagious.

    Unless it’s a trip of married couples where nobody is without their spouse for the bulk of the time, the group is going to get pulled into a meat-market situation where sex is on the offer for anyone who gets the urge to say yes.

    Absolutely right.

    However an all male trip to Vegas involves fewer marital risks, if no one is a compulsive gambler. Unless they’re all alphas. They have the same or maybe even greater motivation to cheat, but less ability to easily do so with females attractive to them, on a very short term basis. (The less ability to do so is because women want casual sex a lot less than men do, even these days, though the culture has narrowed the gap a good bit from former, normal in history, days.) Though still, between cheating and strippers/whores, some guy of the group at least probably will in Vegas.

  82. Randy says:

    I thought the advice you gave about setting boundaries and talking it out was great.

    Then you said this:

    “Anyway, the whole girls gone wild vacation is typically predicated on disrespect and disinterest in the husband. Essentially she’s demanding that you passively watch her construct an entire scenario with a perfect cover for cheating. So even if she does nothing inappropriate, I can’t see how she’s going to respect you as a man after that.”

    I mean, isn’t that a little insecure? How is she supposed to plan this trip that would make it not her trying to cheat on him? I’m confused.

  83. Joe Commenter says:

    @Rachel said
    “do you really think that this level of mistrust is healthy in a marriage? My husband and I rarely holiday separately, But we do understand the desire to get away with girls, or get away with the boys occasionally. The issue of ‘how do I know you won’t drink too much, and start behaving like a whore.” does not arise because we trust each other implicitely”

    It’s good to be in your situation of trust. But not everyone’s marriage is as structurally sound as yours. An astounding percentage of people cheat on their spouse. Don’t you think the victims of that cheating implicitly trusted their spouse? Aren’t most victims of cheating utterly shocked when they eventually find out? Why are they shocked? Because they implicitly trusted. People will do all kinds of things they would not normally do when they believe they will not be caught. Going to VEgas without the spouse constitutes a situation where the cheater might believe they might not get caught.

  84. JPH says:

    Wow, am I the only guy here who would be overjoyed to have my wife go on a vacation without me? Have the whole place to myself for the weekend? Sign me up!

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