How Do You Get Past Your Anger About Women?

Cutting and pasting to create the question. “Typical Male” is a forum member.

Typical Male:  I am sometimes surprised at how much anger I carry from all that rejection during dating.  Even now, you try chatting up a normal looking woman in the supermarket and she gives you the blow-off.  Bam there’s another one. When I read articles now about females getting older and that they cannot find quality men to marry.  I just wanna scream.    I know I shouldn’t care.  I know i gotta just get over it.  But it’s still there.

Perhaps this post was inspired by the feeling that it sucks beyond belief to be rejected by 5 females just to get a date with 1. This post makes It feels good to know that Karma is alive and well. That those girls that would not give me the time of day in high school are now fat ugly cows and I am so glad that things did not work out between them and me. And now *I* would never give *them* the time of day. Most every man I know carries some level of bitterness of these countless rejections. Knowing that men become more eligible as the age and women less eligible is satisfying. It’s like watching another car doing 100 MPH pass you by on the highway and then you passing them as they get pulled over for speeding by the state police.

Females do not carry this bitterness because they don’t have to do any asking out for dates. Females don’t get rejected in that way. What makes it more galling is that I have always been a good-quality, high earning potential (actualized now), standup man. Women ignored me and could not have cared less about those qualities. It was only after I learned asshole game, became selfish and arrogant, that I got female attention. Go figure.

I’m happily married for 25 years so this is all water under the bridge to some extent. But it leaves a mark.

Do you have any pent up rage like this?

Athol:  I think I have been very fortunate to have learned the Red Pill in a very user-friendly manner. Yes indeed I’ve been shat on in dating situations in the early days quite firmly. I’ve been lost and confused as to why different girls just weren’t interested in me. Three years of long distance waiting for Jennifer can be just as easily seen as the most pathetic desperation and oneitis, as it can be seen as a wonderfully romantic story of love and commitment.

I also got very lucky with Jennifer being the way she is, she was a genuinely sweet, caring and undamaged girl, from a good family, virgin, smart, active, in shape and all the rest. I was also lucky in that I quite unwittingly did some amazingly Alpha things with Jennifer that I’d never done with anyone else. I think we match up genetically very well and we both just activated on the other and that was that. I was different with Jennifer than I had been with prior girlfriends. A decent part of me learning the Red Pill was realizing I had a good thing and tried to reverse engineer what that was.

But I’ve not had that crushing divorce experience. I’ve not been cheated on. Our two girls are mine. The sex is good. Jennifer holds up her end of the marriage. So I’ve not been down the razorblade studded slide that some men have had to experience.

That being said, I’m quite familiar with pent up rage. I was taken advantage of in my job fairly badly for quite some time. As I’ve said a few times on the blog, me running my own MAP was very much along the lines of making MMSL my exit strategy from my employer. I did Phase One, Two, Three… and then had my supervisor try and give me a ranting Phase Four ultimatum (Literally… “you will X and like it, or get out”)… to which I calmly advanced into Phase Five… and Six and here I am in Seven. Watching your female supervisor have a hysterical fit at you like you were dumping her is a bizarre experience. I didn’t so much quit my job as divorce them lol. So I didn’t really get angry, angry over all that. I just ran a long term plan and executed it. They had literally forced me into having to find more income, wouldn’t let me work overtime, so I had to “look outside the marriage” so to speak. In the end I simply wasn’t going to stay and be screwed over. I mentally checked out of the situation years ago, I kinda feel sorry for them, but even that’s fading into blanket disinterest.

The one thing that I have struggled with rage over though is my departure from Christianity. And no I’m not getting into why I left the faith, beyond making it clear that I did so for nothing more than no longer believing. I’m a truth and honesty guy. Nor is being an atheist a source of being angry, it’s the ex-Christian bit that does that.

 After having spent age 16 to 25 being extremely committed to faith and plotting a career of full-time Christian ministry, I left the faith with what amounted to a fairly well ruined educational plan in terms of earning an income. I had to return to school to get a nursing ticket. Also being someone with a very high sex drive, my entire justification for jumping through the virginity-until-marriage hoop was my belief in Christianity. Once that was gone, I felt I’d lost a great deal of opportunity for enjoyment and my religion had destroyed my sex life. I could also look back at my best prior girlfriend and release that when she had green-lit me having sex with her, I did the good Christian thing and declined… and she tore me apart by Fitness Test after Fitness Test after that. If I had dropped my pants and nailed her, who knows what would have happened. Maybe good, maybe bad. But I know now why I lost her.

So whether or not you agree with my belief or lack of belief doesn’t matter. All I know is I couldn’t set foot in a church for about a decade without this seething coming to a slow boil inside of me. All those wasted years. All that nonsense crammed down my throat. My stolen sex life. Some of the things I had done in the name of belief I’m not proud of either.

But I don’t feel that rage now. I think I feel more of a sense of the pangs of memory of distant times. There were plenty of good times along the way and I went along with them at the time. I was young then.

What I have found to be the cure for anger, is understanding.

Assuming they aren’t sociopaths, once you start to really understand why someone “did something horrible to you”, often you can discover misguided attempts to do the right thing. Or more commonly, just going about the business of trying to get their own needs met.

My girlfriend wasn’t a Fitness Testing bitch… she was just a hot girl trying to figure out if I was the one for her. I wasn’t.  The church people I ran with weren’t out to ruin my career path and cheat me out of a sex life… they are in fact a bunch of quite nice people who earnestly and genuinely believed they were doing the right thing. We don’t agree on some stuff, but I do quite miss some of my old friends. My old nursing job is stuck with a never-ending task of every year trying to do more, with less. It’s the economy more than anything. There was some anger on their side because I was getting out of there and leaving them behind.

What I have found to be the cure for anger, is acceptance.

Also a lot of the worst things that have happened to me, have come with a silver lining. A little gift of something that somehow plays a role in what is happening now. For example my real estate career attempt… I really tried… turned into a dismal failure. I quit my nursing job way too soon and crashed and burned. When I left to do MMSL, I took my time until I had a proper income already happening. I also wrote a real estate blog for about 18-20 months that got some decent attention and if nothing else proved I could write. When I started MMSL I knew what I was doing with the blog and it made a big difference. Not bad for a guy who had a high school English grade of 55%.

My stolen youthful sex life… has in no small part helped with my marriage to Jennifer. It’s a fine line between fucking monogamy and fucking monogamy! some days, but Jennifer is my greatest joy. Our three year long distance trauma makes us appreciate being together just a little more somehow. It’s given us a magical story to tell as well.

What I have found to be the cure for anger, is getting into action and giving.

Look I’ll admit it. I actually feel deeply spiritual some days now. That’s come from finally turning my life around from being a more passive victim of my fate and only sucking in information, and changing to someone actively trying to give something back. When someone comes to me a mess and leaves with a plan and hope… and it works… it’s an amazing feeling. I think 90% of my own gaming of Jennifer is now is just showing her reader email.

What I have found to be the cure for anger, is hope.

Your anger is a message to your conscious self that something is wrong. Figure out what the problem is and set about fixing it. Things can get better, or at the very least you can try to make them better and know you tried. Anger wants to do something about what ever is wrong. If you have anger without the hope of solution and you do not try, the anger has no place to go but cycle around inside you turning into a dark rage. Rage can be expressed, but only grows stronger for the expression.

What I have found to be the cure for anger, is apologizing.

Because if only in part, sometimes it really was your fault.



  1. Wow. Thank you for the reminder that anger doesn’t have to be the end. It’s only the end if you let is consume you. You didn’t explicitly state the other “magic” ingredient – time. Anger is similar to grief in that deep woulds take time to heal, no matter what proactive steps you’re taking.

  2. And Balls says:

    I’m glad you were able to accept your anger over past stuff. As someone who has felt anger directed at past employers, the church, and women, I feel compelled to state that anger at women is a different animal. When you aprach a woman and she blows you off, you believe at the time that she’s rejecting YOU–heart and soul, flesh and blood. The social conditioning that’s beaten into the heads of boys and young men adds confusion to injury. Rejection from enough women will destroy a young man’s sense of identity, confidence, and self-esteem. My employer nor the church ever had that kind of power over me.

    Moving beyond bitterness requires acceptance, as you said, and a series of reframes. Women are bipedal, emoting incubators–they are neither logical nor rational. She wasn’t rejecting YOU rather she rejected your approach. You caught her at a bad time when she was preoccupied and upset. Second reframe: she rejeced your approach because it was lame and did not stand out amongst the 7 other approaches from other men that same day. You failed to show her who you are. Third reframe: she’s a victim of social conditioning and a product of her environment. Women by and large do not think independently. Is it really her fault that she has been told to be strong and independent while deep down she desires to submit to a strong leading man? This must be confusing. Furthermore, is it her fault that she’s surrounded by the socially-created manginas all day long and she’ll lump you in with them as a heuristic unless you display obvious signs or markers of balls?

    I’m speaking as someone who carried around bitterness towards women for several years and was miserable until I let go recently (and started seeing positive results with them–surprise).

    They really are confused, insecure little creatures who are trying to make the best of the short time they have to be young and sexy.

    Compassion >> bitterness for everyone involved.

  3. This is not going to go over all that well, but I dealt with my frustration with women by just dialing down how much of a crap I gave about the women I was pursuing. In other words, just stop taking them so seriously. I suppose there’s some element of latent contempt here, but it’s really that a woman has to earn my being concerned about her feelings.

    I used to be really invested in the whole thing, evaluating a woman for whether she liked me and whether we’d be good together and everything. If I found out we disagreed politically or she had slutted it up or something, I’d be very disappointed as my fantasy image had been shattered.

    Now I go for the sexy-and-pleasant game first, and worry about the paper compatibility later. I don’t get drilled if someone I’m interested in doesn’t hold my opinion or goal on something. She’s angry about something? She can get over it.

    In a bigger sense, I’ve backed away from this idea that a woman was/is going to “complete my life.” Fuck Jerry Maguire. Not all of us can have the Athol Kay plan and build pretty much his entire adult life with a woman who’s worth building with. I would have loved to have that, but women rejected me at that age (partly for my own lack of game, partly for their own foolishness) and that opportunity was lost.

    It’s very sad to say that as I get older, my faith declines that any particular woman will be able to provide an indispensable benefit to my life.

    I don’t pump and dump women (I have been pumped and dumped, interestingly) but they get a fairly high-standard audition to be a part of my life, and if they don’t read well for the part I move forward and look for another one.

    People may think this sounds shallows and disconnected, but in fact it allows me to relate to women on a more easygoing personal level. Because I’m more or less putting myself first, I’m confident I’m not going to get fleeced because I went uber-beta in the first month of dating – so I have more confidence that she’s with me because she enjoys my company and not because it’s some kind of a free ride.

    Also you can displace some of your latent anger via fucking her silly, which leaves everybody happy ;)

  4. RedPillNewb says:

    I’ve told my wife I don’t blame her for our lousy sex life (because I’ve been an unattractive Beta) but I blame her if she thinks our lousy sex life is OK and we don’t need to do anything about it.

    I’m not angry at the girls who rejected me, or even at the ones who were cruel about it. They were young, I was skinny and pimply. But I am angry at those who, today, persist in cruelty when it is pointed out to them, or attempt to distract from their bad behavior by claiming it was justified (oh, that guy was a creepy jerk), or minimize gratuitous female cruelty in general by saying you just have to man up and get over it.

  5. one cannot simultaneously be “extremely committed to faith” and be “plotting a career of full-time Christian ministry”

    I have had several hundred hours of instruction to the effect of being committed to faith required a lifetime committment of Christian service. To the point of advice on which college degrees we should do to better serve the church.

    obviously, in yr youth (as with the vast majority of young guys) you received exactly the wrong messages, and information, about what a “full-time Christian ministry” is

    You make my point for me. If I was receiving the wrong messages on what amounts to a daily basis, you can see how that could result in anger once discovered could you not.

    it damn sure isnt a comfy, upper-middle-class lifestyle with “breakout ministries” one can oversee like fiefdoms :O) the example of modern (pseudo) ministers and pastors gave you the wrong idea of what it means to actually serve Christ desiring to “earn an income” is probably not too high-up on God’s priority list of attributes in his servants

    This is abundantly clear from the grinding poverty many Christian workers experience. I’ve known a number of people coming back from being missionaries who are now basically homeless. The average pastor in America is probably living paycheck to paycheck, has crappy retirement savings and doesn’t own a house. It is a career, it’s just a very poorly paid one.

    The irony is that it did used to be a quite respectably paid career. Not quite doctor or lawyer money, but fairly decent. In many churches now though it feels like walking through a K-Mart just before it went under. The lights are on, the door is open, but this is a big building with increasingly empty shelves and not enough money coming in. Some denominations are inching closer and closer to essentially “not being able to make payroll”. I can assure you that when that happens, that denomination will look just like a failed business chain in very short order.

    Plus I’ve seen the effect of being in ministry has on family life and your children. I’ve seen familes uprooted and moved repeatedly against the desire of the minister and their congregation, and clearly to the pain of the children involved. The PK syndrome wasn’t a selling point to me.

    I think this is a fairly obvious set of structural problems the church is facing.

  6. ray: “that was pretty darn pathetic, there. athol kay”
    No… No it was not!
    I think Athol is being very fair here..
    Unlike you, he takes a balanced approach.

  7. Understanding, acceptance, giving, hope.

    If that is the pattern, then I am somewhere between understanding and acceptance. For me, understanding has just led to more anger and frustration. Understanding leads to knowledge of the more Machiavellian aspects of why women do what they do.

    I now understand now that many women will cheat on husbands or BFs if the circumstances are right for them. I understand now how utterly unfair divorce laws are to men. I understand now that if my wife wants to blow it all to hell, there’s very little I can do about it. I now understand how I was used, defrauded, lied to and shit tested. I now understand that women not only need a touch of asshole game, they actually like it and expect it.

    Contrary to what some believe, it is not true that women in the hookup culture are just looking for boyfriends and husbands. They are not looking for love. They are in it for the hot sex with alpha men. I now understand that left to their own devices, many women’s mating strategy is to fuck as many hot alpha men as they can until they can’t do it anymore; then step off the alpha cock carousel into the arms of a waiting beta whom she will marry, then divorce for cash and prizes.

    Right now I’m working on accepting all this as simple facts of life. It is what it is. Much of me still wants to say that this just cannot be; that my entire worldview up until about 18 months ago simply cannot have been completely false. But it was. From here on out, I have to live a life of accepting facts as they are, rather than as I would like them to be.

  8. Who am I to blow against the wind?
    I am a friendly guy. When I was an obese(r) friendly guy, the reactions to me were more poor than they are now. I wasn’t quite fat enough to be “chris farley” but I was too fat to be attractive. So innocuous conversations with women got met with rejection signals. My first thought was “don’t flatter yourself , you broken down bitch”. But where does that get me?
    It’s WAY more powerful to believe that you are capable of doing more on your own. Some sort of vicious cycle takes over, right? The MAP is all about breaking that cycle, right? Getting in a loop and controling it with your own.

    (Incidentally, you should read Boyd: the fighter pilot that changed the art of war amazing stuff about building strategy from the tactical level – you seem to already have a grasp of it, but the idea is the OODA loop).

  9. RedPillWifey says:

    Ray: You really expect anyone to take you seriously when you have a modified swastika as your avatar?

  10. Flybynight says:

    Try this.. post a profile on a internet dating will find yourself rejecting many women. It helps to remember there is a balance when dealing with rejection.

  11. Good post, Athol. Here’s my take.

    I’m still carrying around anger from rejections I got 25 years ago.

    And I’m OK with that.

    While I tend to agree with your philosophical conclusions, I would also add that — for men — anger is a powerful motivator. I believe that part of this is how men process and express their anger, and how we can use it as a tool. Female society (“The Matrix”) sees anger as disturbing to the consensus, or conversely a plea for group attention within women, but see male anger as an almost universal negative. While I don’t often agree with Ray’s perspective, for forty years as men we have been told that our anger is evil and wrong, regardless of the source. Too often we are castigated for that anger, particularly our “anger toward women”. We are made to feel ashamed, and told that we are flawed for expressing it or even feeling it. It is blatantly obvious that women — even women with a keen grasp of masculine sensitivities — do not understand just how profound this anger can be. And while acceptance, understanding, hope, etc. are good long-term strategies to cope with this essential element of the human condition, the fact is that men, all men, carry around that store of anger within them for a reason. And how they express it is telling of their character.

    One of the worst things a woman can say to a man (after “You need to man up!”) is “Don’t be mad!” or “You’re getting angry!”, as if it’s a sin or medical condition. One of my exes was fond of “Don’t be mad” , and it was a serious contributor to my betacization, because she attempted to undermine my emotional motivations as a means of winning an argument. Sometimes, Gentlemen, it’s perfectly OK to be mad. Even about shit that happened decades ago. The key is how you handle it.

    Your anger can become a powerful motivator, but only your character can choose in which direction it will motivate you. It can help you get in shape, run the MAP, meet a girl or six and run real game on them. It can inspire you to get a better job or go back to school to improve your condition. It can give you reason to make great changes in your life. But it is an essential characteristic of the mature man that he can control his anger. It can be a powerful servant, but it makes the worst of masters. If you can’t handle your anger, then that should be the very first thing you should tackle. Once you learn how to control it, then it becomes an integral part of your system, like hunger or lust.

    I suppose that’s one reason I left Christianity myself: I was told for years that “the seven deadly sins” should be avoided because of their dangers, instead of instructed how the passions of the human soul are wild horses waiting to be tamed to your command. Sexual rejection wasn’t even covered in Sunday School -it was celebrated. As it is one of the primary influences in a young man’s life, and can lead to all manner of horrors if ignored and inflamed, I think Christianity does young men a great disservice in many ways by this approach. It’s poor spiritual technology, akin to demonizing hunger or pain.

  12. @ Badger:

    Agree with what you wrote there, lock, stock and two smoking barrels.

    On the post topic in general:

    Something that helped me:

    We want guarantees about things. People love guarantees (ask any salesman) and they get upset and angry when they realize that many of the things they thought they were sure of, turn out not to have any of the guarantees that they expected.

    Whether that is the game of love, what we were taught as kids about women and the dating/marriage market/the world, how our future would pan out, wedding vows, whatever. We love to give and get guarantees, and it is a source of great anger when we find out that it really doesn’t work that way, or that someone gave us a guarantee and lied or decided not to live up to it for whatever reason. Usually, it is even more anger inducing when we judge that the reason they or it, failed to live up to the guarantee is something seen as incomprehensible, foolish or senseless to us.

    It also angers us a lot when what we were taught would guarantee us a certain outcome, does not in fact work. We don’t want to believe that what we were taught is incorrect. There must be something wrong with everyone else. Lolz.

    For example, many men are taught to “Be yourself” and then you get rejected by tons of women, well what is wrong with all those women? They must be defective. Then when you learn and you internalize that perhaps the problem is not them but that you dress like a dork, talk to women like a dork and approach them like a sweaty nervous teenager, you get angry.

    “Those miserable bitches!” It’s easier to be angry at others than it is to do the introspection and work necessary to change our dearly held beliefs about how things “should work” versus what we keep seeing in front of our faces. Don’t beat yourself up too badly about that. We all do it to a degree because we overestimate the importance of our role in how the Universe is unfolding. “If only the Universe would operate the way that I think that it should, then everything would be great!” Lolz. When you can get to where you recognize when you are doing it and you take a course correction to stop doing it, you’re on the right path.

    When we are no longer children, we all know on a subconscious level that there are no guarantees about anything in life, including the ability to continue breathing. As humans we don’t like that thought. So we set about trying to build a life, relationships, ‘rules’, society, etc. that we think will insulate us from that.

    Even game is an attempt to create a situation or set of circumstances for ourselves where we can be guaranteed an outcome that we like. That’s not bad. It’s just what we do as people and it does bring many positive things and order to our lives in many ways. We try to bring understanding and order to the chaos of life. We do it through learning, through the development and adherence of beliefs, rules at school, laws, codes of conduct we expect of others, vows, etc.

    However, when it doesn’t protect us from this truth or a bad outcome, and something bad happens, we get very mad. “How could this sort of thing happen?”, “How could you do such a thing?”, “I can’t believe you would do something like that to me.” , “I don’t understand how I got to this place.”, are all manifestations of our inner struggle with this disconnect between the truth we know, ‘there are no guarantees in life’ even if you “do all the right things” and the truth we would like to have: ‘guarantees exist and they work 100%’.

    It’s also why it is very hard to change someone’s mind about a fundamental belief they have until they are ready to make the change. Why? Because whatever this belief is – “All women are saints” or “All women are sinners” or “The sky is green”, is a fundamental building block of their psyche that they use to build an inner world for themselves in which there are guarantees and the guarantees work.

    If you challenge or try to take away the belief that they are holding onto that does this for them, you are putting them in a scary place where they have to confront the truth that in life, and especially when dealing with other people, there are no guarantees, there are no promises that cannot be broken, there never were, there never will be, and you have to get comfortable with that.

    Once you do, you can approach things more like Badger relates above. You lose the urgent need to have everything go right, to make this interaction perfect, to have to be perfect yourself. It’s quite freeing and I think it actually produces better long term results for you in all aspects of your life that you can come to terms with about this.

    It’s not that you don’t care about the outcome, of course you care about the outcome unless you are uber-Zen, but you can accept that there is no outcome, good or bad, that you can be guaranteed with certainty will happen. So you will instead play the hand you have been dealt at that moment as well as you can, but you will be under no illusions that you are a cinch to collect the big jackpot. If you win big – hooray! Beer!, If you do not – it is not a shock to your psyche, because you knew all along that – there were no guarantees…

    In regards to women and anger at them:

    I used to be in the “all women are evil bitches” out to suck your soul dry camp. I carried my membership card in the “he-man woman hating club.” I’ve since resigned for the most part. I try very had to take it case by case, woman by woman now. Even if I am a bit of an ass to many, and give the surface appearance of the occasional curmudgeon, I no longer really believe that “All Women Are Like That”. Instead I believe that “all women have the potential to be like that” on some level and in some circumstances, but you have to examine the facts in front of you case by case, woman by woman using the knowledge and experience you continue to accumulate.

    If you’ve made a really bad decision in terms of what women you chose to let into your life in the past and it cost you very dearly in blood, treasure and tears then you are probably going to be a very angry fellow for a while. Especially if she went against a guarantee (vows) you thought you had with her. It will upend your world, and that will make you mad for the reasons I suggested earlier.

    That anger won’t go away overnight but it will go away if you start to let it. It also doesn’t mean that you reinsert yourself into the Matrix and pretend everything again works as you thought it once did, unless that is your only coping strategy. It would be childish to think so. The best outcome is to take your new experience and knowledge and apply it to your life and the world around you, case by case, new woman by woman. Or just work to be a mega-pimp. Huzzah!

  13. “When I was an obese(r) friendly guy, the reactions to me were poor than they are now.”

    Young men really need to be reminded more often that their looks matter when trying to attract young women. Confidence and personality are important qualities, but a man’s looks are also important to young women. A man’s “niceness” doesn’t cancel out his fatness.

  14. Athol, I’ve experienced both anger toward women, and anger toward my faith.

    My red pill experience began when I stumbled across Haley’s Halo online. Her site eventually let me to Dalrock, the chateau, your site, etc. All of what I read summed up my experience pretty well. I was a nice Christian man who was heavily involved in ministry for the last 10 years. Basically when I began to take my pursuit of women seriously, I ran into nothing but rejection. I was dumbfounded because for years I was told that what Christian women wanted was a nice Christian guy who was heavily involved in his church and made his faith a priority. Needless to say I spent ten years of my life so involved in ministry the I neglected the development of personal hobbies, my own masculinity, etc (because hey you need to die to yourself, what does this life matter when you have heaven on the other side). Meanwhile I saw the of strong, handsome, masculine men my age (who did not serve as much as I did, who were not nearly as nice) enjoy their hobbies and eventually married a hot babe. The message continually was that God had someone for me, and it would happen in due time. I recognize now that I was duped into trying to meet my needs indirectly. That somehow if I became a great Christian man than. an attractive Christian woman would want me. I am pretty pissed that I spent three to five days a week involved in ministry, when what I really should have been doing was going to the gym, pursuing hobbies, establishing my own direction for my life, etc. I wrestle now with my faith at a lot of different levels because I recognize how I was lulled into this spiritual passivity. My attitude was that somehow God would make it all happen, but it seems the reality is that things won’t happen unless I make them happen (this is for all areas of my life – my emotional/personal growth, securing a mate, career growth, etc). I also look at how naive and wrong the church is when it comes to relationships and can’t help but ask what else they’re wrong about.

    As I see it there are two major problems with the church/Christianity:

    1.) the message that your life doesn’t matter – it does matter, you have to live your life, you have emotional and physical needs and they won’t be met unless you make it a priority to see that they are met.

    2.) a complete naïveté on the reality of hypergamy, biased divorced laws, telling men to man up etc.

    Now in terms of women, I was definitely frustrated to learn that everything I was taught and bought into was a lie. I can’t say that I was pissed at women so much that I was pissed at society and the church for lying to me. Having to overcome the white knight handicap is challenging. I’m thankful that I was smart enough to not get LJbFed or to be used/duped by a broad. Needless to say I can see why my previous attempts went no where.

    At this point I’ve decided that I’ll be spending the next few years focusing on building my SMV (I’m 27). I am hitting the weights, and my career is going well. I am debt free now and am currently earning a great income, in the next few years (with some long term overseas assignments) I see nothing but good opportunities for growth. In otherwords I’m in the hope phase now. I know I can only grow more attractive, and that in a few years there’s a great chance I can land a girl in her twenties.

  15. Oh hi, Ray! Nice of you to show up and give a shining example of a man who is consumed by his anger. Legitimate anger? Of course, but YOU are the person being eaten alive by your anger. Nobody else. Wallow if you must, but you will wallow and accomplish little else.

    Do you not see the irony in the fact that you continually comment on the sites of men who have channeled their (also legitimate) anger into something productive? And I don’t mean “productive to feminist-dominated society,” I mean productive to themselves, their families and to other men.

    Athol is writing for men who don’t want to spend their lives embittered by the injustice they suffer. You are not one of those men.

  16. FeralFelis says:

    Your post translates into everyday English what I learned in 3 years of studying Buddhism! They call it letting go of the attachment to specific outcomes, and it supposedly allows for the presence of Enlightenment to enter one’s life.

    I kinda had to laugh as I was reading this post and the comments (OK, admittedly, it was a short, somewhat sarcastic snort). This whole Game thing goes both ways; I have been told, “you’re the sweetest girl I’ve ever met” as someone was dropping me off for the last date (we nearly always stayed friends, and then I go on to watch my male friends date a succession of woman who treat them like crap while they lap it up like honey).

    I have watched and studied the girl/boy, female/male dance of misery (although sometimes, a pair of fortunate souls like Athol and Jennifer find each other and figure out how to succeed in their relationship) since 8th grade. I decided early on that I would say yes to every man who gathered his courage, walked across the room, and asked me to dance. It was one dance; I only had 5 minutes of my life to “lose”, and if I decided during that dance that I didn’t want to dance again, I would still tell him thank you for asking. Same with dates. If I wasn’t particularly attracted to a guy, I would tell him, “you seem really X (funny, smart, interesting, etc) and I appreciate that you took the time to ask me out (acknowledging that he had a certain amount of rejection risk involved in asking me), but if we go out, I’d like it to be just as friends, and I’d like to pay my own way. Some guys understood that this was my gentle way of saying that we’d never be a couple and said, “that was the nicest rejection I ever had!”. Some of them said, “OK”, and we went on to have very nice friendships.

    I guess the point I’m trying to make is that perhaps those of you who have daughters can help teach those daughters that there are ways of declining a man’s request for a dance or a date without crushing their nuts and spirit in the process. Teach our daughters and sons that rejecting another person’s overtures without some compassion is NOT a belt-notch of success.

    On the other hand, I’m 54 and single (albeit with a lot of male friends, some of them going back more than 30 years) so I clearly don’t have it right, either! This post and the subsequent comments remind me that it is a tough, sucky world out there and unless we are really lucky, maybe it’s not such a bad thing to get by with a little help from our friends! I have learned that lonely single-hood beats lonely marriage every day of the week.

    Here’s a toast to all of us who keep putting one foot in front of the other, trying to figure it out, and trying to maintain our sanity and humanity in the meantime!

  17. this is Jen says:

    I like this post. Even as a woman it has helped me with some ofmy anger at my ex husband.

  18. Redaing David Deida is VERY good for learning to be comfortable with red pill gender dynamics without becoming angry and frustrated.

  19. kryssie says:

    The female version of this is that there are women who were not as physically attractive when younger. Maybe they were overweight, or maybe their lack of self esteem came through in their personal grooming. That was me and my close friends in high school. We were rejected then. Mostly in a kind way, but there were assholes who went out of their way to mock “ugly girls”. I’m sure everybody’s familiar with stupid jocks pretending to ask out a girl they consider unattractive as a joke.

    Well, things have changed. It’s a rare person who cannot make themselves more attractive once they find the self esteem to do so. I’m hot and sexy now. In my case, my sexiness came out even more once I found my man. But I do pull a lot of male attention, which is neither here nor there for me. Should I be bitter that I didn’t pull as much attention when I was single and looking? I would laugh at those “asshole” types who actively bullied me if I met them now, but there’s no point in me being mad at the ordinary guys just trying to figure life out for not being attracted to me at the time. That would be a collossal waste of time. They didn’t see the diamond in the rough, but perhaps this diamond is better off with a more discerning and more skilled jeweller.

    Obviously, I had great potential, even before I came into my sexuality. One person was wise enough to see it. So I ended up with somebody wise, who can see various layers of a situation and can see the long term picture. I lucked out. :-) I’m honestly grateful for that.

  20. MILF in Training says:

    Rejection happens … and it’s about as pleasant as other stuff.

    But there’s a lot of it … if I’m looking for a man with certain traits, I’m going to have to reject the 75%, 90%, 99% without those traits. As men will do with women.

    The big question, and the one I’m asking the angry men, is how can a woman tell a man that he’s not in her “Yes List” without making him feel like crap for asking.

  21. Ray, I’m sure you’re familiar with the apex fallacy, right? Well you’re applying it to the clergy as well. I have many friends in the ministry (considered it myself for a time), and every single one of them are in the upper 20s to lower 40s in terms of income. If you’re in a connectional church such as the United Methodists, you may eventually be promoted to a church large enough to pay you a decent salary – once you’re in your 50s. Only bishops or megachurch senior pastors sniff 100K, and that’s in high cost of living areas like Chicago.

    I’ve seen my church’s financials. Our pastor makes about half of what I make, and my family lives paycheck to paycheck (despite having zero debt, two low end cars to boot. etc.) He’s certainly not getting rich off what we’re putting in the collection plate.

    The church doesn’t pay for his home either. The idea of a “parsonage” where pastors can live rent free is largely a thing of the past. A couple of my friends live in 50-60 year old ranch homes that the church has owned for decades – but have you seen houses of that vintage? Two bedrooms, one bath – one and a half if you’re lucky – crappy wiring, terrible insulation, etc. But most of them have to fend for themselves in terms of housing.

  22. Oh, I forgot to mention that those lavish low-five figure salaries come with a crushing load of student loan debt from seminary.

    Yup, that too.

  23. The lyrics to Toby Keith’s song “How do you like me now” should work just fine for many good men.

    Truth is: I have an exceptional woman; we bonded in 1963 and are just fine, thank you.

    I went with my lady to my 40th high school reunion. Wow! I had been to my 10th but not others. The women who had turned me down because I wasn’t a jock, because I was a nerd, because I was poor, because I wore glasses (“four eyes!”) are all now real porkers. The men they are with, if they have one at all, are the same jocks they chased after in the 1960s. Losers, the lot of ‘em. Small town grunts, the football coach (himself now quite the pork chop), and on it goes.

    It was nice chatting with some of these people. I’d ask and be asked the same questions: how long have you been together? How did you meet? What did/do you do for a living? The contrast in response myself and my former schoolmates was interesting and eyeopening. My life’s achievement exceeded them all. My relationship has endured longer than almost all. My station in life is better than any of my former schoolmates.

    So, to the bullies, the good looking girls of 1963, the girls that turned me down, the boys that made fun of my nerdiness: “How do you like me now?”

    That is all.

  24. Wow guys. The bitterness in some of these comments is incredible. I can say that as a woman, I’ve been rejected by men I truly care about (and some I haven’t cared so much about) a number of times. And for me it’s made me understand that not everyone wants the exact same thing that I do, and that sometimes my timing is completely off. I wouldn’t dream of resenting men in general because of these missteps on my behalf.

    I have however been asked out by men who – like the “Typical Male” in the text – already resent women, and all I can say is that that resentment shows big time. I would never go on a date with someone who already has a negative opinion of me because of my sex. Passive aggressive men are a fucking waste of time for a nice woman. And they fucking suck in bed. Just saying.

    Just as women need to differentiate between gutter rats and genuine men, you men need to learn how to set apart bitches and good women.

  25. JZB – thanks for your comment. Let me know how the battle goes once in a while.

  26. Joe Commenter says:

    @IAN “Too often we are castigated for that anger, particularly our “anger toward women”. We are made to feel ashamed, and told that we are flawed for expressing it or even feeling it. It is blatantly obvious that women — even women with a keen grasp of masculine sensitivities — do not understand just how profound this anger can be. And while acceptance, understanding, hope, etc. are good long-term strategies to cope with this essential element of the human condition, the fact is that men, all men, carry around that store of anger within them for a reason. And how they express it is telling of their character.”

    “I’m still carrying around anger from rejections I got 25 years ago.”

    You nailed it. This anger does not run our lives. But it is there. It has a presence. We are not running around on a daily basis with veins throbbing on our foreheads. No men here are going around hitting the children and kicking the dog. But the anger is part of what makes us who we are. Yet men are shamed for even having these feelings. Shamed for even saying “I’m angry”.

  27. holdingallthecards says:

    For the men who’ve been rejected and are still carrying around chips on their shoulders: without seeing you or witnessing the approach, we ladies don’t have anything to coach you on. Perhaps there’s too much sexual innuendo, or you twitch, or you are aiming for a 9 when you are a 5.

    Try being just neutral-friendly at first, without expecting anything. This dating thing is a game, after all — you win some, you lose some. But I think your chances increase if you slow down and relax (if you are not a smoothie player type).

  28. Purjo,please. This post is specifically designed to discuss how men can address their anger about women (it even says so in the title). It really doesn’t help one iota to have a woman leaving comments saying “you angry guys are so unattractive.”

    It just validates the sense we have that society is out to INvalidate males’ frustration and shame us as losers who had it coming.

    “I would never go on a date with someone who already has a negative opinion of me because of my sex.”

    You think you have a perfect anger detector; I think you’d be incredibly surprised at what opinions men might have of you because of your sex, and how rejection and anger has shaped their successes with women (per Ian Ironwood above). I can say with high confidence that not all of those “not-resentful” men have always been that way.

    holdingallthecards left a lucid comment recently saying “when the nagging stops, maybe she’s just stopped caring.” That goes for men too…when the anger stops, maybe he’s just stopped caring about women (see my comment above). Oddly enough, that’s where a lot of men start to get great results. There’s this weird quirk in female sexuality where their attraction seems inversely proportional to how much a man cares. I can’t explain its purpose but I know it enough to use it to my advantage. I’m not making moral judgments, it is what it is.

  29. jzb,

    “At this point I’ve decided that I’ll be spending the next few years focusing on building my SMV (I’m 27). I am hitting the weights, and my career is going well. I am debt free now and am currently earning a great income, in the next few years (with some long term overseas assignments) I see nothing but good opportunities for growth. In otherwords I’m in the hope phase now. I know I can only grow more attractive, and that in a few years there’s a great chance I can land a girl in her twenties.”

    I am heartened by the end of your comment. If you’ve taken the red pill at 27, you are in GREAT shape to reap great rewards. Investing in yourself is a great thing to do at this age, so long as you are investing to self-actualize and to become more attractive to women, not to drop out of the game entirely and become a mindless consumer of short-term entertainments.

    Try to get in pretty good physical shape before you’re 30 and your body starts to decline from peak potential. As you’ve said, pick up a couple of hobbies to replace your church time; they will/should help you meet new people. Think of a personal project you’ve wanted to take on, like bicycle a hundred miles, play in a band, become a great homebrewer, read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, competitive rifle shooting, become an internationally-famous game blogger – anything that can serve as a long-term, consistent passion of greater stature in your life than a hobby which can be done off and on.

    And find places where women you are interested in hang out, go there and talk to them. Don’t get too invested in any one interaction, learn to hit women’s attraction triggers. A word of warning: it’s easy to spend too much time on the Internet reading about this stuff. What you want is to get actionable advice you can put into practice quickly. Athol’s MAP is one example.

    Please stop by and keep us posted; you might want to check out my blog and a few posts that might help get you started (hope Athol doesn’t mind the altruistic self-promotion):

  30. Californio says:

    “Anger is unmet expectation….” another saying I heard recently – “if you are experiencing frustration it is becuase you are believing a lie.”

    As someone who has had to let go of a huge disappointment relating to an ending 24 year marriage, I have to say it is best to let it go. No need to walk around angry and feeling like your have been aggreived the rest of your life – even if you have cause.

    Remember, those women who rejected you did not “owe” you anything.

  31. Well said, Badger.
    holdingallthecards and purjo, why are you shaming these men? Do you honestly believe that a man who doesn’t act “bitter” toward women HAS no anger toward us? If so, you are simply deluded. It’s real. It’s there. How a man manages it over time, says a lot about his character and maturity, but you seem to be oblivious to one very real fact: Many MANY men here are relatively new to Red Pill thinking. Whatever their ages, they are just now discovering that their long suppressed anger is actually valid. This blog advises men on how to deal with men’s issues and problems. Of course they’re going to express their anger freely here!!! You really have some nerve telling them how “unattractive” it is, and that gee, maybe they’re to blame for the rejections they have suffered. I don’t care if you think it’s true, I don’t care if it IS true. They don’t come to the Manosphere to be judged and advised by smug, superior women; they come here to escape from the judgment and advice of smug, superior women. Comments like yours undermine men’s self confidence, and are counter to the purpose of this site. Shame on both of you.

    Please forgive my tantrum, Athol.

  32. pdwalker says:

    You know what really makes me angry? It’s the whole “nice guys finish last” (with women) thing. Everything I’ve been taught, everything I’ve been told is a flat out falsehood. I’ve been lied to by women for most of my life. I’m angry about it because I *believed* it in the face of all evidence to the contrary because it is what women told me what women want.

    Over 20 years ago, I met very a nice young woman who I was not really interested in, but dated. Because I was not really that interested in her, I decided to run an experiment. I treated her badly. No, not really badly, just little things like, if she made me wait more than 5 minutes, I’d leave and not talk to her again for a day or two, or was just, in general, an uncaring inconsiderate asshole.

    HMFS! Did she ever go out of her way to treat me well! The whole time I felt (but never showed it) like a complete heel! Lower than low! It was awful. I had to break the “experiment” off after a short time because of how shitty I felt, and because of how “effective” it was becoming.

    Men are rational animals in general and this behaviour is completely irrational! It does not compute!

    Had I known about game when I was younger, I would have very quickly learned to treat women as disposable objects not worthy of my consideration because they behave so apparently ‘effin nuts.

    I am thankful that I found out about it later in life when I was (hopefully) mature enough to understand and use the knowledge properly.

    Knowing it, understanding it, means never being angry because the sun rises in the East instead of in the West where I really want it and was told it would do if I wished for it hard enough

  33. RedPillNewb says:

    An honest rejection sucks, but a fake number is 1000 times worse. If you simply must lie, make it a believable lie like “I just got out of a bad relationship and while I enjoy flirting with men like you, I’m not ready for more.” That has it’s own problems but just NEVER do the fake number thing.

    Or carry a copy of MMSL and hand it out to the unattractive guys who hit on you. :)

  34. Here’s another perspective. Relating to girls in high school was difficult for me; university not much better. Poured effort into my first marriage; as the adjective suggests, that ultimately wasn’t a success. Triumph of hope over experience, marriage again, to experience growing frustrations over intimacy and sex, again.

    I first learned about the red pill about two years ago; changed attitudes and behaviors followed. Was it too late for a beta-centric nice guy in his mid fifties to better himself, learn about women, and re-build his relationship with his wife? Base on results to date, no.

    I mention my age because most readers, guys and gals, seem to be quite a bit younger. Good for you that you’re here, thinking about these resources, reading illuminating stories like jzb’s. We each carry our own baggage. There are as many different red pill approaches as there are authors — cf. Athol, Badger, and Ian Ironwood upthread — and a lot to be gained by taking the first hesitant steps on one of these paths. “Anger towards women” may never heal, if “heal” means “disappear.” But action plus tincture of time can transform it into one of many elements within a complex tapestry. That’s its own reward.

  35. A reader says:

    Don’t forget too that as bad as we Beta Schlubs have had it, it’s worse still to be a facially ugly woman. Also, in my case at least, if I’m objective about the younger version of myself, I just wasn’t that attractive.

  36. many women’s mating strategy is to fuck as many hot alpha men as they can until they can’t do it anymore; then step off the alpha cock carousel into the arms of a waiting beta whom she will marry, then divorce for cash and prizes.

    So don’t play along with divorce-rape. Only marry a woman who makes a lot more money than you. That’s what I did!

  37. RedPillNewb says:

    Don’t forget too that as bad as we Beta Schlubs have had it, it’s worse still to be a facially ugly woman.

    Indeed. They get implicit rejection (men don’t hit on them) instead of explicit rejection, which is better. But on the other hand, they can’t become beautiful as easily as beta can turn into alpha.

    Speaking of gratitude for what we have, reading MMSL and the forums especially have made me grateful for my sometimes-crabby, bossy, sex-denying wife. Because she’s so very much better than what I could have wound up with, and she’s responding to the MAP. Soon she’ll be perfect!

  38. Great post & alot of good comments. Sure, I get angry with women & with my wife. But I also get angry with myself, especially about things I did (or didn’t do) in my younger days. I had mixed success with women in high school & college. Had I observed myself & others more closely, I could have figured out a good deal of the whole Alpha/Beta thing & how to mix and match the two. There were certainly times I went about my business with women the right way, but w/o totally realizing what exactly I was doing right. But there were many more times when I was being too much of a Beta yet kept expecting different results for the same actions (the very definition of insanity).

    A tip of the hat here to jzb for figuring out what he has at a young age. I was counselor by age 27 (sort of a secular version of the ministry, I guess) and hurt my chances with women off the bat by having such a low income. I have since switched to a line of work that pays better.

    Hat’s off to mgwk, too, for taking the Red Pill in his 50’s. Makes me realize that 45 y.o. isn’t too late for having taken the Red Pill.

  39. holdingallthecards says:

    Suz: “holdingallthecards and purjo, why are you shaming these men?”

    Huh? Perhaps you are refering to Liz and her comments from yesterday’s post?

  40. Highlander says:

    At 57 I’m probably one of the older guys here, one year past a marriage of 24 years. The anger thing I dealt with for a long time, I saw the “Princess’s” of High school fall repeatedly for the “Black Knights” who pumped and dumped them, who would cry on my shoulder about it all, but repeat the same scenario over and over again, none of them ever went out with me though.

    I lived with that, thinking that I was not willing to change my personality to something I wasn’t, the end result I did not have any serious relationships until after high school, most of them LTR’s that ended with them cheating on me with… you guessed it “Black Knights”. The last LTR before I met my wife was a widow who had married one of these guys, but even though he’d died he was still a lot of competition ;~). After that one I was 30 and thought “Well might as well join the club”, I red pilled in 1985 before such a term was coined. For the next three years I just went out and did my thing, randomly hooked up with party girls, but still in the back of my mind looking for “The one”.

    I finally did meet her, she past all of the tests and I thought maybe I was wrong, my distrust was unfounded just me being “angry and bitter” and I spit the red pill out. We lasted 24 years, two kids, mortgage paid and no conflicts within our marriage…then Bam, I got ” I’m not happy” which translated to “I’m having an affair”…. So am I angry, no, for 23 years of the 24 it was about as good as it got as far as I was concerned and I’m grateful for that. I’m more sad than anything else that I have to once again swallow the red pill. While younger and even more attractive women than my wife are interested in me, there is a wall I can’t scale anymore , I’ll never get that feeling of total trust back again.

  41. Understanding:

    About nine years ago, when I had been dating my lady for a couple of months, there was another girl who seemed interested in me. We got on well, she wasn’t bad looking, when she opened her mouth the stuff that came out tended to be worth listening to, and she used to draw these doodles as she sat next to me in class that were better than sketches that art students spend weeks on. There was some real chemistry there, I think.

    Finally she got fed up with waiting around for me to make a move and asked me to go out to a movie with her. She was shy about it (I can relate) and did it in a way that made it seem like a big group thing, not a date, but the way she asked me told me that it was ME she was asking out, and everyone else in the group were accessories to make me feel less pressured. That was when I realized how into me she was.

    My lady and I were teetering right on that edge between casual dating and getting serious. We hadn’t discussed exclusivity, but it was definitely on my mind. At this point, I should have, A.) accepted and made a mental note to gently break it off with one or the other of them in a couple weeks when I had a better idea of which of them was a better long-term prospect, or, B.) politely declined, saying that it was bad timing and I was already seeing someone I was getting pretty serious about.

    Instead, like a dumbass, I accepted, thinking, “It’s okay, it’s a group thing, not a date.” Because I liked the attention and didn’t want it to end.

    Mysteriously, one by one, everyone else in the group dropped out, until it was going to be just me, The Other Girl, and The Gay Chaperone. And at this point I should have revisited Options A and B, but instead, like I dork, I thought, “It’s okay, as long as The Gay Chaperone is there, it’s not a date.” Because I liked the attention and didn’t want it to end.

    I showed up at the theater at the indicated time, and The Gay Chaperone was nowhere to be seen, but The Other Girl was, and she was done up like she was going on a date. And we watched this movie and then we walked out into the parking lot and I made some lame excuse about how I needed to be somewhere, and she gave me a goodbye hug, and it was not a friendly hug. It was an “I would like you to kiss me now, and then take me someplace where we can make out for several hours,” hug.

    And at this point, I REALLY should have been a man and told her that I was flattered and she was wonderful and it kills me that this timing is so bad, because there’s this other girl and it’s getting sort of serious. Or else been a man and kissed her and taken her someplace to make out for several hours.

    And instead, what I did was left and went to go see my lady and talked about exclusivity with her, and then the next time I saw The Other Girl I started dropping the phrase “my girlfriend” into the conversation at every possible opportunity. And The Other Girl took it as gracefully as anyone I’ve ever seen to my face, and was probably super pissed at me and considered me a flaky jerk for leading her on behind my back.

    And ever since then, I have had ever so much more sympathy for every girl who has ever started dropping the phrase “my boyfriend” into conversations with me RIGHT when I think I might actually have a shot with this one. That doesn’t make that a good way to treat people, but it makes it a helluva lot more understandable.

    (Probably also should’ve taught me something that the fact that I was flighty and evasive and always seemed to dangle myself juuuuuust out of The Other Girl’s reach just made her chase me harder.)

  42. @holdingallthe cards:
    “For the men who’ve been rejected and are still carrying around chips on their shoulders: without seeing you or witnessing the approach, we ladies don’t have anything to coach you on. Perhaps there’s too much sexual innuendo, or you twitch, or you are aiming for a 9 when you are a 5.
    Try being just neutral-friendly at first, without expecting anything. This dating thing is a game, after all — you win some, you lose some. But I think your chances increase if you slow down and relax (if you are not a smoothie player type).”

    7:27 pm, July 22. Your name was above it. Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that ‘Maybe you guys are doing something wrong, and I could show you how to fix yourselves if I knew what it was. Here’s some advice. I’m a woman and we women know these things.’ If not, what WERE you trying to say?

  43. “An honest rejection sucks, but a fake number is 1000 times worse.”

    There was a big dustup about the direct vs indirect rejection thing on another board, and I’ve come to chalk it up to gender differences. Men generally favor direct communication so they know exactly where they stand. Women seem to favor going around the problem to avoid any kind of confrontation, and while they do seem to believe it’s better for the man to not receive a direct rejection out in the open, a men would rather get a clear signal so they have good information.

    There’s a certain respect angle to it for guys – it’s a sign of mutual respect and esteem for men to be direct with each other (whereas women are under a social code to never criticize each other), so when a woman does the fake-number/fake-boyfriend routine, we feel she doesn’t respect us as a person even enough to politely tell us she’s not interested.

    Likewise, it’s a major disappointment – I mean a huge letdown – for a man to find out a woman faked an orgasm, even though women think it’s somehow worth it to stroke his ego and/or avoid the discomfort of having a conversation about why she’s not finishing.

  44. god works in mysterious ways. if your so called sexual youth was not stolen from you, i would bet you would not be with jennifer and have those beatiful kids. When i look back at my regrets and mistakes i brush them off as, they made me who i am, and i would not have my daughter if not for those struggles. Sure i was a hapless beta for years and would have loved to nail all those girls i could have but i would not trade any of that for my daughter. besides i am a chamged man and life is pretty good right now so i do not focus on the past because it was just a path to today.

    Oh I completely agree that if I knew what I knew now, I would have done things differently enough that I would have never met Jennifer in the first place. It would make a good time travel movie script where I go back and change things and unwittingly return to a Jennifer-less future and then go crazy trying to correct the timeline.

  45. @Highlander

    Sigh. Every time I start to get a glimmer of hope back for humanity, another tale of anguish.
    Sorry you had to go through that. It’s the pits, speaking from first hand.

    I guess something to keep in mind is that when we come to sites such as this we get sort of the evening news effect. That is, we have a collection of pain concentrated in one spot and lots of us, (self included), have a bad tale or two to tell.

    So, like watching the evening news and nothing else, you could start to think that the second you leave your house you’re going to get kidnapped, shot and robbed at every street corner, you can start to think that this is all that’s going on out there between men and women.

    It’s going on a lot to be sure, but I’m still working to get a little more cheery about it I guess.


  46. My red-pill story is different in certain ways. I’m mid 30s and discovered Game 5 years ago but only started approaching 3 years ago due to a number of factors. I was a beta-male my whole life and was rejected and LJBFed by women since 18. I did manage to have sex with three women that I would say were hot but that was purely by luck each time and I went beta and fucked up the relationship.

    In the start of 2010, I took a PUA workshop and have done about 500 approaches a year for the last three years. I have had some incredible adventures since. I have also been rejected or “flaked” on more times than I can count. Oh well, “charge it to the game”.

    But I don’t have any anger against society because of this. It was not because of feminism or fem-centric “schemas” that I sucked with women. I don’t know why I sucked but I have been aware of the “nice guys finish last” phenomenon since I saw the movie “The Last American Virgin” (great 80s movie) when I was a kid. I even had a natural as a friend who would constantly tell me to “not be so nice”. It just didn’t register.

    In short, I needed to be handed a system of seduction (Mystery Method or any of the dozens of systems out there now) PLUS I needed to understand the psycho-biological foundations of attraction. Once I understood that on an intellectual level and I saw how this expressed itself in modern society my bitterness pretty much dissipated. In the end, what is there to be angry at?

    When I look back on it, every time I was rejected or LJBFed was because I was either uncharismatic or non-dominant. Why would a female primate want a weak male? That’s the crux of the matter. Beta’s have no one to blame but themselves. Beta-provider game went out with the 50s. That’s just the way it is and barring economic collapse (which is a distinct possibility) that’s the way it will be from here on out. Men better get used to it.

  47. Good post. I think that anger comes from all-or-nothing thinking based on a personal frame. The first part, all-or-nothing, tries to apply good or bad labels to everything. The second part, the frame, is the viewpoint from which you make your judgments. As you suggest, changing your frame to view things from other peoples’ frames can sometimes make you understand things better, and can tend to dull the all-or-nothing thinking which clouds so many minds.

  48. I feel for men, getting rejected up front. That must really suck, and I appreciate being spared that. When women do get rejected, though, it’s usually further along in the relationship, and subsequently, much harder to argue that rejector doesn’t know what they’re missing. They’ve gotten to know you and they don’t want you.

    The two that plague women most are rejection by disinterest (not getting attention from men at all, or men who vanish after you don’t put out fast enough) and rejection by neglect (finding out late in a relationship he’s only playing along for the easy sex and pleasant company, but would never marry you.) These are particularly unfortunate because there is never a definitive rejection, leaving ample room for our hamsters to whip up a tornado.

    It takes a strong person to get rejected over and over, and keep on entering relationships with the same openness (note: not naivete).

  49. Athol,

    Thank you for giving me a forum to share, and thank you for the blog. It is certainly helpful to a young single man who is contemplating the idea of getting married someday.

    I’ll make sure to try and comment when relevant and fill you in on my journey.


    Thank you for the kind words and for the linkage. I’ve been devouring everything I could find on the sphere since November. I’m not sitting in a terrible place. I’m tall (6’2″), debt free, well traveled/cultured (missions trips and several business trips. In fact I’m writing this on my iPhone in a hotel in south America right now), have a great group of friends, have been shooting for a few years but am looking to make it more of a regular hobby. I am outgoing and really can run a room when i don’t care about the outcome (I.e. there aren’t any pretty girls I’m interested in around). Though the issue is that I have been a spineless nice guy for most of my life, and I’m fighting to break out of that mold (thank you manosphere and The book “No more mr nice guy”!).

    I am trying to make sense of it all in terms of what my direction is in terms of women. I am a virgin, and that is mostly because I really wanted to be a sincere Christian and follow Christ. Obviously the fact that I wasn’t an alpha with opportunity helped keep me that way, but at the same time I did not pursue casual relationships or date for the sake of dating. At any rate I’m unsure of what road I want to walk down a this point. Part of me is saying F it, just pick up chicks and bang, but at the end of the day I don’t think that puts me in a healthier spot emotionally (I certainly can see the confidence I gain, but I think there are some negative consequences as well). Truly I desire a relationship/companionship/intimacy along with sex, but given the fact that I’ve taken the red poll and have been exposed to the realities of hypergamy, American family law, etc I see a lot of challenges on this road as well. The only conclusion I can come to at this point is I need to become a better man regardless of the road I take. So I am striving to stop being nice, to stand up for myself, to pursue personal interests, etc. It’s overwhelming a times because I’ve just begun to grab a hold of the reigns and decide what I will live for/where I will go.

    I have put my faith aside at this point. I don’t see how God matters. It seems like its all up to me to grow, handle my baggage, become succesful, find a mate etc. And so if it’s all up to me, then what does God have to do with anything? At any rate I’m so burnt out from striving to live my life as a Christian I don’t even care to try to find the answer. I just want to live, which I have not been able to do without filtering every decision through a Jesus worldview (am I loving people enough? Am I sacrificing enough? I need to pray more, see e more, etc etc etc).
    For so long I thought Christianity had primacy and that I knew/was being taught everything I needed to know about life. I see now how sorely mistaken I was, and where I was led astray. I feel betrayed in a sense, even though the people I encountered were sincere and had good intentions. I’m angry at the lost time, I’m angry because I needed to be taught masculinity, I’m angry because the guys I hung with who landed hot babes did so because they were masculine (handsome, aloof, bold, confident, passionate about their careers, decided for themselves etc), not because they were Christians.

    Anyway I don’t mean to be all over the place, I’m processing all sorts of things, I haven’t even touched the tip of the ice berg in these two comments. Again the only conclusion I’ve reached is I need to be better. Who knows what conclusion I’ll reach in regards to faith in Jesus Christ.

  50. JZB – you’re just not the sort of guy that’s going to be able to pump and dump anyone. You’ll deeply care about every woman you have sex with… forever.

    You’re welcome to email me about anything.

  51. holdingallthecards says:

    @JZB: If your God can love murderers, thieves, and pedophiliac clergymen, I think he’ll be able to love you even if you aren’t a virgin on your wedding day. Athol’s right — no pump & dump stuff. Love your neighbor instead, emotionally and physically.

  52. Danceny says:

    The pain of rejection, as bad as it is, is NOTHING compared to the pain of betrayal.

  53. @JZB

    I ditched the church and the churchians when I realized that they are more concerned with enforcing and replicating the peculiarities of the cultural world they have built for themselves than they are with the content of the New Testament. I’ll take my Christianity but hold the Churchianity.

    See my post above about “people like guarantees”. I feel like the church culture, is organized around this premise. You do it our way, and we give you this guarantee. Sticky sitch since they proclaim that they speak directly for God to back up their sales pitch. “If you will only believe and act in this particular fashion you will get this guarantee.” “Like what?”, you might ask. “Um, like a special, beautiful flower of a wife will be yours when the time is right!” “You don’t even have to do anything!” “Awesome!”, you say. “When?” you ask. “When the time is right”, they say. “Just keep waiting…it’s not yet the [Season] for that…” Bummer.

    Stickier still that each denomination is “right” and each has their own bent on things. So, I cut out the middleman. I have personally only read a couple of ironclad guarantees that God gives in the New Testament and they don’t seem to involve too much mention of getting guaranteed to be matched up with the hot chick that sits three pews over or of being fabulously wealthy or whatever they promise in the Sunday sermon that will come when the “Season” is right. I could be wrong though and I guess that’s why we have elders and pastors to set us straight.

    JZB, you don’t have to be some pumper and dumper, rogue bandito if that’s just not your way. You can certainly use all of this information to go about your quest for an LTR partner that is suitable and satisfying for you, and to maximize your potential to attract and retain the best quality you can get. There is nothing wrong with looking out for you first and screening for a girl that is good for you. [Trust me, you really, really, really want to do that, or you will be very sorry, for a very long time.] If you don’t take care of yourself first and look after your best interests, how can anyone else respect you enough to do it?

    Translation: If you don’t care about you, no one else is going to care about you either. First step: Get a little selfish. If it helps, you can think of it like this: If you aren’t in a good place and have your strength, you’re not going to be in a position to do much good for anyone else. Other people will try to leech your strength in various ways. You must not let them.

    You also mention that you get nervous if there is a girl around you like because you are not outcome independent. That’s okay. You can work through it. There are a lot of different takes on it but…

    I thought like that for a bit, that I should be outcome independent about everything, but as I said in my earlier post in this thread, I do care about the outcome of things. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be bothered to do anything other than eat Cheetos and watch TV.

    [I would be like the people of the planet Miranda after the PAX. Or my luck, I would turn into a Reaver. If you don’t know what I’m saying just go rent the movie Serenity or NetFlix it.]

    If you can free yourself from thinking that you are guaranteed a good outcome if you do X,Y,Z or because you are a good person, or because these other people promised you that if you believe X you will get Y, I think that is better. Least for me personally. I try to think like this: “I want this to go well, and I will do my best with my abilities, but even with that, I know that there is no guarantee it will go 100%.” If it does great! If not, I was mentally prepared for that.

    I accept ahead of time that “it” (whatever it is) could not go well, and though I do not prefer that outcome, I accept that it is always there as a possibility. I am able to be calm doing “it” which will actually increase my chance for success. Contrast that with “I don’t give a crap.” And? “And nothing, I don’t give a crap.” Um, okay. Or, “If this doesn’t go well, I don’t know what I’ll do, I’ll F’ing die of embarrassment!” Lol, what?

    You may also find that this frees you up from being mad about some of the things you state you are currently upset about. You might be upset because you were taught things and guaranteed by others that if you did as you were taught, you would get X,Y,Z. Now you know better. It doesn’t work like that and you are a bit upset. Understandable. Understand why people like to give and get guarantees and then you can be more understanding. When you are more understanding, you tend not to be so mad.

    Or option B, train hard to be a Mega-Pimp.

  54. It’s not like women get off scot-free on the agonies of mating and dating, back-stabbing, betrayal and sorrow. The guy who “loses” the condom and then can’t even be bothered to give you a lift to the nearest abortion clinic. You know he ain’t NEVER gonna pay child support, either.

    Oh ho, those were good times! Might have had my highest SMV back when I was eighteen but I’m sure glad I don’t have to do it all again.

    Maybe we’re just likelier to seek each other out and howl it out in real-time instead of letting it fester for a couple decades. Something to be said for that. :D That, and realizing, “not all guys are like that. Pick better next time.”

  55. I understand women are mostly shallow, often devious, hind-brain controlled creatures designed to ensure the natural reproduction of the species.

    I accept that my sex drive forces me to associate with them and tries to make me deceive myself about their true natures(see “original sin”).

    I´m effin´GLAD that after 4 decades the testosterone fog has cleared up a bit and the red pill is holding, so I can finally enjoy my inadvertent freedom and peaceful loneliness. Watching all these former hotties, now single mums and/or cock-carousel rejects hitting the wall at 35-45 years per hour is just the added bonus.

    Just another viewpoint.

  56. I like how men ONLY chased after the hot babes, ignored the ugly fat fatties and then complain that women (the attractive young ones) ignored them. Typical male hypocrisy.
    As an ugly woman myself I am glad I do not have to deal with any man. I can have a high paying job, kids on my own via sperm bank (that’s what they’re there for) and many other things without men.
    No….I am not longing to be dominanted by a man, I do not love them,I am not illogical or irrational.
    I call for all the women in the world (who aren’t attractive enough) to stand your ground. Men don’t like you so theyext time they trip over you to get to the hot babe in the club remember this…..we are not living in the stone ages. Get a job and raise your future kids….ALONE.
    Yes men karma is a B*tch and I can’t wait for women to learn that not every man is as wonderful and lovely-dovey as you men keep shouting. Only the attractive ones get that luxury. When karma catches up to your future daughters (since the hiot women ignored you, now you see them lonely you like to gloat about it and encourage other men to do the same) will have to deal with men you HOPE treats women like crap to get a date. Unless she’s ugly then you can lie and “honey you should go for a man that will love you for you”, bullsh*t.

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