Is Coming On Her Breasts Beta?

Reader:  My wife has health problems and many times can’t take sex in the traditional way. I will get her to give me a partial bj (I call it that because she doesn’t take my in her mouth entirely, just stimulates the sensitive spot with her tongue and lips) because she doesn’t want cum in her mouth. I can get her to give me a hand-job which aren’t anything to write home about. I can jack off with her posing for me or dangling her tits in my face. Or, I’ll titty f**ck her. I guess my question for you guys, is titty banging a beta activity? It feels like it is for some reason. Secondly, a male masturbation toy, is it beta to use one or to have her use one on me since her hand jobs aren’t spectacular? Any thoughts?

Athol: It depends.

Doing whatever it is you like to have happen to get your rocks off is Alpha. You’re getting a woman to please you sexually, that’s Alpha. There’s also an element of erotic humiliation from having someone come on you that many women enjoy as well. Semen is a body fluid just as saliva is, but someone drooling on your breasts or spitting on your face is very likely experienced as a negative thing. But for some women having a man come on their ass, boobs or face is experienced as erotic.

Thus our “In you, or on you” rule in the Kay household. When I want to cum, I tell Jennifer what I want, how I want it and have it. That’s Alpha.

The flip side to that being that if Jennifer wants something too, I absolutely make sure her gets hers and goes to bed happy. That’s Beta.

It’s a common misunderstanding that being a sex god and making a woman orgasm is Alpha. It’s not, it’s Beta.  It’s Beta because a male bringing a female to orgasm is triggering an oxytocin response in her, making her feel love, warmth and trusting of him. The Alpha part is there because a male using a female sexually for his own pleasure, is doing to trigger a dopamine response in her, making her feel excited and in love with his bad self. It may seem to be splitting hairs, but the distinction is important. And yes quite obviously you can both use a woman for your own pleasure and make sure she gets hers all in the same roll in the hay.


I suspect what you’re experiencing is a vague Body Agenda discontent from going a long time between vaginal sex. After about five days your standing army of sperm are all dead inside her and you’ll subconsciously want to fill her up with sperm again. For guys after about five days they experience increasing sexual anxiety to ejaculate inside their partner.

Because she’s struggling with illness, she may simply not be up for a long intercourse session, so the blowjobs and handjobs are workarounds to avoid ten minutes of being pounded on vaginally. So a work around may be an extended period of foreplay and entering her “ready to pop” and keeping it down to 10-20 seconds of intercourse. Provided she can tolerate that. You may find that relaxes you a little more.

The other issue is her poor handjob and blowjob skills. This takes a lot of patience and effort to address. You can’t simply say “You’re terrible at this” because that’s the last time you’ll get it. You can however communicate what works and what’s isn’t working. What you like her doing more than the rest. Experiment with different lubes. And if you haven’t tried her sitting on your face and jacking you off, it’s worth a try.


  1. As with most things it’s how you frame it. I personally have a hard time seeing titty fucking as beta. If you’re that close, start coming on her face. Facials can be fun.

  2. gardenoflove says:

    Went to the Dick-n-Jane blog one day and watched a video there on how to give a creative HJ. Even wrote down notes on it until I could remember the how of it in real time. It did help.

  3. Joseph K says:

    My wife absolutely loves getting facials and considers them very dominating and alpha. She loves to watch me jacking off in front of her face before I come. She says watching that is like watching power in action and it very much brings out her submissive side.

  4. holdingallthecards says:

    IMO, giving a woman an orgasm is not Beta; it’s just being good in bed. If a man — my husband, cough! — cannot so this, I have absolutely no reason to bother having sex with him again (to quote Athol: “You’re terrible at this”). Whether she is your wife or GF or even just a date, the question “What’s in it for me?” will always arise. Note: if she is a prostitute, she will be getting money instead of an orgasm, but the expectations were set before the act began, so no one is disappointed, and she won’t care about your lack of talent.

    For all the men who think there’s something appealing about Money Shots (face), remember that it’s demeaning in nature. Most women will not go for this. However, most women will not insist on standing over you afterwards and giving you a golden shower, either, so chalk it up as a this-for-that avoidance.

  5. CarolinaGirl64 says:

    @holdingallthecards – it isn’t the man’s job or priority for her to have an orgasm. Most times I want to have an orgasm and I have at least one during sex, sometimes I don’t want one and the last thing I want is my SO determined to give me one and I would have to say, ‘No or Please Stop”. There are times that I don’t have an orgasm during sex and then I will please myself with my SO watching or helping or just whispering in my ear. We have sex about 5 times a week and have been together almost 4 years so obviously we know each other and our likes very well. I get the impression from this and your previous comments that you have not read the MMSLP or much of this blog. You cannot speak for “most women” unless you have a study or facts to back those statements up; just speak for yourself and let others speak for themselves.

  6. Re money shots: moreso than the demeaning nature of it, which doesn’t particularly bother me because it’s my husband doing it, it’s really just the ick factor and the chance of getting it in the eye- it stings! Or having to wash it out of my hair right afterwards. So I wind up closing my eyes and then startling when the “shot” finally comes. This totally ruins it for my husband who’s looking for a wide eyed porn star emulation and I wind up feeling bad.

  7. Sarah: put on some safety goggles! Maybe he’ll develop a fetish for them.

    Your husband is aware that porn is FANTASY, right? He could always take just a teensy bit of his semen, stick
    it in the outer corner of his eye – just so he can understand that yes, semen in the eye is painful. Experience – always the best teacher.

    Don’t they sometimes use cornstarch/water mixtures in those “facial” shots? Where’s Ian Underwood when you need him?

  8. Sarah – the pornstars close their eyes too. Ask him for the two second warning to shut your eyes in time.

    CarolinaGirl64 – you said it all.

  9. Lol, I came up with the “In you or on you” determination as well. With the younger girlfriends, it was fun, but I felt massive amounts of shame when I facialed my wife (who was just my GF then). I took this to mean I really LOVED her, because I didn’t want to put her through that.

  10. @Sarah:

    Wear glasses.

  11. Glasses? Seriously?
    I’m not entirely opposed, just don’t think I look all that great in them. I’ll run it by the hubs though, not sure what he would think.
    @Julia: yes, I’m sure he KNOWS it’s fantasy, he still wants to capture the idea of it though. Some things I don’t mind, some things I really do. It has caused a lot of fights in the past and is still something of a sore spot still, just mostly unspoken.

  12. Missed athol’s comment. I still kind of cringe though. Even with a warning it always takes me by surprise. Guess I need more practice?

  13. Joseph K says:

    My wife wears glasses and if she isn’t she closes her eyes.
    Plus, holdingallthecards, for the record, my wife’s first facial came at her request. It’s something she really wanted one time when she was giving me a hand job. She doesn’t find it demeaning at all. She finds it an extreme turn-on and usually has an orgasm the moment I stat coming on her.

  14. Fighting? Because you don’t like semen in your eye? I bet some of the male readers here are doing the facepalm (if only my wife would even do blowjobs!!). Here’s a great quote from the latest Dan Savage column. Athol has linked to one of Dan’s videos in the past, “The Price of Admission.”

    “You alone will ultimately never be able to fulfill your boyfriend entirely… just as he alone will never be able to fulfill you entirely. One person simply can’t be all things to another person—sexually or otherwise—and unmet needs, unfulfilled desires, and unexplored possibilities are prices we pay to be in LTRs. Monogamous, polyamorous, Femdom, or whatever: All coupled people walk around feeling a little unfulfilled. (Single people, too.) Because no one gets everything they want.”

  15. No, not because I don’t like semen in my eye. He’s understanding of that. He just has certain other sexual preferences and fantasies that I have strong objections to which has caused a lot of friction in our marriage. I have rarely ever turned him down for sex, barring physical illness, etc. I have no problem with bjs, hjs, any particular positions (unless they’re painful, which used to be a lot of the time until after having our 2nd kid). But there are some fantasies and erotic ideas he has that I am opposed to on a moral basis. We have very different sexual preferences that never got brought up prior to marriage (I lost my virginity to him prior to marriage, he has had several partners). We’ve done our best to work through them and have seen several counsellors, but basically have just kind of wound up at a stalemate where he wants certain things that I refuse to give him. It’s a diffcult quandry and i’d be very interested in athol or jennifer’s input.

  16. I learned my lesson the hard way with the eye thing…and he saw how my eye looked afterward, bloodshot and swollen, So now he just directs to around the mouth, cheeks, etc. I also wear glasses and he’s into the “hot teacher”/”hot librarian” kinda thing, so for those nights when I’m dressed that way, I keep the glasses on.

    To add to the tally of do the women like this or not. For me, it’s somethign that I’m indifferent on, but he loves it, so it’s in the mix. I love watching him though, so that’s ussually fun for me. I happen to LOVE when he cums on my tits. Love the hot slippery sensation on my nipples and image. I honestly dont find any of it humiliating or demeaning. I often find it really intimate feeling cause I’m so up close and personal….And there’s a huge visual turn on for me as well.

  17. @Sarah:

    “Guess I need more practice?”

    Or you could just not do it? Having a healthy, mutually satisfying sex life, and occasionally doing stuff you’re neutral towards to please your partner is one thing. Doing something you hate because you don’t want to restart the latest round of fights is another.

    Does he do stuff he doesn’t like because *you* like it? Is he on a forum trying to get over how he doesn’t like it? A porn fantasy is fine, but not at the expense of your real life sex partner.

  18. @Liz: I appreciate the sentiment. Having him come on my face isn’t something that I hate. There are other things that I DO hate which I won’t do, re: my above comment. He is very good about giving me what I like, but my preferences are pretty vanilla, as he puts it. He enjoys pretty much anything even remotely sexual, so to find something that he *hates* in the bedroom that I enjoy would be well nigh impossible.

  19. @Sarah:

    Fair points. I actually felt a bit embarassed about butting into your life like that, just after my comment was posted. So yeah, sorry about that I’m working from (necessarily) limited info here.

    It’s just that if you’re “cringing”, then why not switch to him coming elsewhere?

  20. He often does, he’ll come on my lips or chin or breasts or wherever, which like jane above said, I like a lot. He has said that the hottest part of our sex life is how much his come turns me on. I guess I feel like because we have those areas where I know he’s frustrated that I should in all fairness do the things I don’t hate to the best of my ability.

  21. Milf_in_Training says:

    sarah, I had the same issue with my ex-husband. He had a few things that he thought were incredible hot but are complete instant turn-offs for me. I would tell him, quite bluntly, that they were turn-offs, but he kept teasing me about them: “But Milf, it feels so good. You don’t know what you’re missing.” And when I still said no, he’d whine, “Awww, you never let me have any fun.” Next week, same thing.

    Need I say he was *not* Alpha?

    We never solved this one satisfactorily. Eventually he began complaining I was frigid and asexual (though there were dozens of other things I liked) and he started looking for kink partners outside the marriage.

    Athol, how do you solve the “turn on for one, turn off for the other” problem?

  22. FeralFelis says:

    @ Sarah and x1134x:

    With the exception of sex with minors, I have never thought any aspect of sex with a partner was immoral or shameful. However, my previous partner was full of guilt and shame when it came to sex (no pun intended!). I honestly never understood him.

    For instance, I explained that changing a poopy baby was probably disgusting but he did it anyway. And he enjoyed semi-public sex, which is even illegal, if you get caught. So how is it that some sexual situations with a significant other or husband are deserving of the “immoral” or “shameful” stamp and some aren’t?

    I’m not judging; I’m really trying to understand this. Could either of you explain to me how it is that someone can’t let go of those feelings if they are not serving the relationship well?

  23. @feralfelis: since you asked for specifics, the main things that my husband and I are at odds about are concerning a fantasy he has of being cuckholded. He wants me to describe to him imaginary situations where I have sexual encounters with other men or get gangbanged, etc. I find this not only distasteful and a huge turn off, but I find it wrong on a personally moral level, despite the fact that I know it’s not real and merely a “fantasy”. I know others might not have any sort of problem with this, but I do. He also wants me to wear a strap on and penetrate him, which I just can’t get on board with, for various reasons. Again, I understand that these might not be issues with others and I am well aware that many people find these things very erotic. I don’t.

    I have found that the things that I object to are those things that have more to do with a mental state than a physical one. I don’t want to imagine myself with anyone other than my husband and don’t want him imagining it either. I don’t want to penetrate him like a man in that way (although I don’t mind doing it with my hand while we’re having sex.)

    So, yeah. There are a few other issues there that would take a lot more time to elaborate, so I won’t, but that’s lessentially the crux of it. Hoping not to incite a bunch of “prude” comments after putting it so plainly.

  24. My apologies, feralfelis, for all that I didn’t really answer your actual question, which was how can someone not let go of those feelings if they are not serving the relationship well?

    I can only speak for myself when I say that I personally feel that the things my husband wants would be far more detrimental to our marriage and sexual relationship than even the frustration caused by me witholding them. Much of the time his desire for these things is brought on by stress, by his own admission, and once the stress is over he no longer wants them.

  25. holdingallthecards says:

    @Carolinagirl: “it isn’t the man’s job or priority for her to have an orgasm.”

    It is if he wants me to have sex with him a second time. I have had enough partners to know when someone knows what they’re doing or not. My husband started off great, but after the twins were born he couldn’t be bothered to make the effort. So given the choice between him or my vibrator, the electric man wins every time.

    Put it this way: if he was as lousy at sex when were dating as he is now, I never would have married him. Red pill, men. There are a lot of fish in the sea, and as soon as my kids graduate, I’m jumping back in the ocean.

  26. CarolinaGirl64 says:

    if you really were holding all the cards you would be winning not in the place you are now, which is in a nonsexual, unsatisfying marriage. When you jump back in the ocean with the same bait you used before, don’t be surprised when you catch the same type of fish. Apparently he wanted to please you at one time and now he doesn’t. What changed when you had the babies ? What responsibility for your marriage and you & your husband’s happiness are you taking ?

  27. FeralFelis: I didn’t consider it taboo at all either, and it was MY idea. Just the INSTANT that I did it to HER, I didn’t feel GOOD, I feld BAD. That’s about all there is to say about it. Perhaps it was just my body agenda saying “hey that should have gone INSIDE her”. I really don’t have “taboos” about sex. I’m a sex, nerd. I’ll try anything once. Perhaps that was the beginning of my becoming beta to her alpha in the bedroom. I still can’t command her around like previous partners.

  28. Ok, a little more thought and I think i’ve got it: Bukake (facials) say: you dirty little whore, you have to take my cum but you can’t have my babies. I don’t want to send that message to my wife. Perhaps after we’ve had some babies. But to have babies, we’ll have to have SEX again.

  29. @CarolinaGirl64,
    Totally agree with the way you’ve responded to what’s her name here. However, one small correction. She won’t be jumping back into the ocean with the same bait. She’ll be jumping back into the ocean with old, stale bait. Now, I’m don’t know whether you like fishing, but I’m just a country boy and I do. I can sure tell you that when it comes to old, stale bait (as we say down here) that dog won’t hunt. Sounds like Cosmo and Carrie Bradshaw have fed ol’ what’s her name here a heeping helping of relationship f_ck up. Anyway, CG64 you rock, but as for your foil, ol’ what’s her name, tell her the Tank said, “Good luck” with that bait! Tank, out.

  30. TANK – sorry but I really get quite peeved when people stereotype mature women as unattractive. It is natural for younger people not to find older people sexually attractive, but older people find older people attractive! Any husband of a not-young woman who thinks he can be less than his best self and neglect his wife because he thinks she can’t find a new husband is setting himself up for heartbreak. I have become more attractive as I have grown older through self development, career development and paying close attention to grooming and presentation. Now I have an awesome man in my life and actually could choose him rather than be chosen. I’m not suggesting women should leave their marriage without trying very hard to make things better as divorce is an agonisingly terrible thing to experience and certainly those expecting a lot for nothing will be dissappointed, However, saying a woman is necessarily unattrative is untrue, cruel and creates a moral risk.

  31. @Candice:

    It’s not necessarily aimed at you – if the stone didn’t hit you, don’t yelp. I think it’s more a reaction to the strong sense of denial that permeates a lot of the older female discussions. Like it or not, a 25 y/o woman has a strong advantage, in looks at least, over a 50 y/o woman. If that 25 y/o is confident, mature and self assured, she’s not only likely to appeal to an older man, she’s more likely to be open to a relationship with one.

    I don’t think anyone on this website is claiming that men should neglect their ageing wives because older women can’t do better. That’s a strawman – you need to react to what people are actually saying. Seriously, find me someone here who claims that it’s okay for men to do that.

    It’s more a call for a greater sense of realism. Dating is harder for older people in general, and older women in particular.

  32. holdingallthecards says:

    I am 39 and have kept up my looks and finances. My husband loved the idea of having twins, just not raising them. My situation is no different than a million husbands’. I doubt that I’ll have the same problems in the next relationship(s) because I will not be having any more kids, and since mine are almost 18, it’s not like I’m going to be pissed that the new guy won’t help changing diapers.

    I need to get laid, properly, and that’s where a lot of bitterness comes from. I will divorce, not cheat, but I tell you, I’m just as excited as the twins about moving out and getting on with my life.

  33. Dating is actually easier for older men. Look at the worlds sexiest men lists they range up to the 60s mostly around 40s. This is the power band of confidence and wealth. Also men aren’t attracted to the same thing women are… “confident, mature and self assured, self developed, career women” are fishing with ineffective bait. Give me hot, fun and feminine any day.

  34. CarolinaGirl64 says:

    I don’t believe that Tank was using “old & stale” to refer to “age & attractiveness”, but that he was expanding on the bait & fishing analogy. I think he was referring to attitude & expectations. I am not sure why holdingallthecards thinks she would want to be with a “Red Pill man”, or if she thinks one would be interested in her. IMO her posts (not only to this blog entry but earlier ones as well) sound petulant & demanding; like a child who wants things her way and only her way. That is why I think holdingallthecards will wind up with the same type of man because she has the same attitude or worse and also, until a person takes responsibility for their side of the street they will always look at the mess on the other side to avoid looking at their own mess.

    I believe there is a market out there for men who had unhappy marriages and may be looking for “Miss Young Hottie”, but would be really happy to find “Miss Sexy with a Brain”. I am 47, divorced for 15 years, and my SO is 52, divorced only a few months after a 30 year relationship, when we met 4 years ago. I am not now and have never been “beautiful”. However, I am not overweight, I wear clothes that look good on me, I do my hair & use just enough makeup for my SO to know I care about how attractive I am to him, I am a naturally sweet & friendly person, I smile (light up actually) when I see my SO, and I enjoy having sex with him. He could have probably worked his ass off to snag a younger, more beautiful woman, but he was looking for the whole package and a LTR (actually he did kind of work his ass off in being persistent because I was not looking to date or have a LTR when we met).

    @holdingallthecards – if you can; stop being defensive, take responsibility for what was your part, let go of the anger & bitterness and envision what type of relationship you want and then go fishing. I also think a part of a successful relationship is trusting that you don’t have to do everything & it doesn’t have to get done the way you want or the time frame you want (especially now that the babies are grown). I hope that you will find a relationship that is built on mutual desire, trust, respect & shared goals.

  35. Up the bum, no harm done. :)

  36. @Candice

    TANK – sorry but I really get quite peeved when people stereotype mature women as unattractive. It is natural for younger people not to find older people sexually attractive, but older people find older people attractive! Any husband of a not-young woman who thinks he can be less than his best self and neglect his wife because he thinks she can’t find a new husband is setting himself up for heartbreak.

    The test is how many hot 25 yo guys pick 50 yo women… Seriously, if you think you can divorce your husband and find another man willing to commit past a certain age, then with the greatest of respect, yout setting yourself up for heartbreak.

  37. RedPillNewb says:

    As I said in another thread, I have a high need for Girl Beta. Having her face light up when she sees me and having her show she cares means a lot. A nice meal when I get home, some cuddles in front of the TV, her cheek on my chest when we hug–if, heaven forfend, I’m ever 52 and single, that’s what will win me. And that may well mean a plump older woman who is content with that kind of slow lifestyle and affectionate devotion rather than a young hottie who wants to go dancing every night.

    But Girl Alpha is just pure hotness and an older woman is going to lose to a younger one in that match up. I like hot girls, too, but my wife can tell you that if she shuffles around the house in a shapeless t-shirt and sweats she still gets me groping her.

    Note that career, “life experience,” and being self-assurance don’t make my list. Those are what women want from a man, so don’t project your own desires onto others.

  38. Women are different than men. They are attracted to different things. Your hindbrain has built-in double standards to accommodate these differences. Athol covers all of this, go back and read the first posts here.

    Generally speaking, if a woman is anywhere near 35-40 and still not married, her best chances are going to be with a man in his 50s who would still see her as a catch. Physical beauty, not a good job/career/financial assets, are what guys are attracted to most. Those may be things that you as a women find attractive because they are indicators of social status, which you find attractive, often over physical beauty.

  39. Heck I’d just like to thank all the ladies for being so transparent and honest in their above responses. That information alone is the gold within this blog.

    Regarding the @holdingallthecards remarks. It’s pretty clear she’s very frustrated with her current situation and sometimes that can come across as selfish anger or the “I’m unhaaaaaapy” mode. So I’d cut her a little slack folks. For what it’s worth, I’d suggest her working it out somehow. The problems I’m picking up on from the posts go far beyond the bedroom. As a formerly single 30something I can say the dating world is brutal and will shape things up real quick. I dated women from 21 to 39 tossed them aside at the first whiff of a bad attitude or substantial baggage. My default mode was not to get married again, ever. I married the one with the best attitude and self-esteem after her passing several “fitness tests” as the winner. It wasn’t conciously meant to be that way but that’s how it worked out. I treat her like gold because above anything, she appreciates and values our relationship above all else and will protect it at all costs.

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