Joan Rivers: This is What They Want!

There’s a Red Pill for women just as there’s one for men. Some clips of Joan Rivers from the archives in 1967 and 1974 talking about declining Sexual Marketplace value and what men really want in a wife. It’s quite tame by today’s standards, but the self-depricating humor is only mostly convincing that she isn’t also experiencing a subtle pang of bitter rage.

The rules of the Sexual Marketplace haven’t changed. The players might be exploring a number of new and different strategies, to see if they can somehow gain an advantage, but it’s still the same old song and dance. Men are attracted to youthful beauty. End of story. Don’t waste the pretty.

…and something more modern. About 2004 I think. Interesting that a couple of the 1967 and 1974 jokes make it into the 2004 set because they still work. The rules didn’t change.

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Comments

  1. Anon says:

    Given that about half of your readers and book buyers are women, I’m wondering what your purpose is in posting this? To put us in our place? To make us feel bad? It’s not like we don’t know that the hot, blonde 20-year-old is the archetypal male fantasy. Or that the reality for a single 30-year-old woman is different from that of a single 30-year-old man. What happened to “be the very best you can be,” make the most of your assets,” “your husband tends to see you as you were when he met you,” etc. This post makes me feel like there’s really no point to any of that.

  2. Highlander says:

    Anon, your response is typical of a lot of women who look at advice from men about what men want as always being an attack. This is where a lot gets lost in male /female dialog, women second guess for motives and allow emotions into factual discussions.

    Athol is simply stating a fact of life that no amount of rationalizing will make disappear, the balance of attraction shifts from women to men after 30. None of that negates advice to “be the very best you can be” or “your husband tends to see you as you were when he met you,” It’s just a “heads up” that all things being equal youth and beauty prevails in men’s basic instincts, but in a good marriage most men are loath to go anywhere else for love.

  3. Julia says:

    Gosh, Joan looks about the same in the face from back then to now — how did she manage that? (har har!)

    But seriously, how can you make this statement, “The rules of the Sexual Marketplace haven’t changed.”
    Joan talks about male advantage back in the day; they just had to show up! (umm, not quite true in my experience, but whatever) Now the manosphere can’t stop talking about all the nice buy betas who can’t get laid, get a girlfriend, find a wife because women are only going for the top 20%. If this is actually true and not just a crock, then that qualifies as a huge change.

  4. pdwalker says:

    Anon,

    Take a pill. It’s humor, it’s to laugh. The best humor has an element of truth in, but exaggerated for comedic effect. Pay attention to the word “exaggerated”. Does there have to be any deeper meaning than that? Sometimes it is only what it is. Stop looking for what is not there.

    None of this changes any of of the things that Athol and Jennifer teach. Not a single thing. If anything, it reinforces it.

    This post shows me that some of these little truths are no less true today then they were 50 years ago.

    That is all.

  5. Anon says:

    I get that it’s humor. I was just wondering why Athol posted three versions of the same message given that 1) his regular female readers are already well aware of this dynamic and 2) it’s an extremely discouraging message, especially to women who are trying hard to be attractive, sexy, etc. for their husbands.

  6. Wendy says:

    For me, the first 2 were funny. The second one more so than the first. The last one, I didn’t get past the first few seconds. There’s a difference between talking about sex rank and saying men like them stupid.

  7. I'm a man says:

    @anon – my guess is since we are all married, his point is clear. The grass is not always greener on the other side. If you divorce you may end up with a lower status male and have to do the sexual things you were not willing to do with your husband.

    Is Athol supposed to abandon his male advice book in favor of the feelings of female readers? Just what we need, more female perspective advice.

  8. pdwalker says:

    Because of the time span it covers, 45 years, because of how her attitudes have changed slightly over the years and because of how some of them haven’t, because of how her humor has become more base, more crude and it’s a reflection on how our society has changed at large.

    I thought the three were very interesting to watch in relation to each other. I also think that you are jumping at shadows that are not there.

    If you’re taking care of yourself, if you’re taking care of your husband, and he’s taking care of you, you have nothing to worry about assuming your husband is not a complete cad.

    I cannot speak for your husband or for you and your situation, but I can speak for mine. My wife is coming up on 50, and, well let’s put it this way; I tell her that she’s the woman I want to have my mid life crises with, because that’s how attracted I am to her.

    I blame Athol because he taught me how the engine of attraction and marriage can run better.

  9. pdwalker says:

    Wendy,

    Watch more of it. There are some good bits, but I agree she did them better in the first two because she want so crude and blatant in the third. In the first two, she left something to the imagination which can make the humor have a much larger impact assuming you can follow the joke.

    I think age and disappointment in marriage(?) has left her a little bitter. I’m guessing here since I know nothing about her, but I suspect she got divorced and her ex husband remarried? (time to look that up now). If so, it would explain where all that comes from.

  10. Julia says:

    PD: her husband had a chronic illness and committed suicide.

    Joan’s main comic schtick has always been about being the “ugly” girl. She was one of the first female comediennes and probably the very first who also got heavily into “insult” (neg for you youngsters) humor.

  11. pdwalker says:

    No, I’m talking out of my arse. Married for 22 years, and widowed when she was 54.

    However, she did have a few affairs during her marriage.

    She definitely suffered from image problems, and given how much plastic surgery she has had, she still does.

    What’s interesting is the joke she made about Donatelli Versache’s(sp?) face, and by 2010, her face had become just as grotesque.

  12. pdwalker says:

    Thanks for the info Julia.

    She was funnier when she was less into the personal insults.

  13. Julia says:

    I’d agree with you, PD; I still somewhat like Joan’s humor but she does look like the female Joker.

  14. Another Anon says:

    Yeah, I’m not getting the point of this post, either.

    Taking the Red Pill for a man makes sense. Up until a man gets to be rather elderly, he can always significantly increase his SMV by understanding the rules of the game and taking well-considered steps. But what’s the Red Pill for women, and what advantage does it confer for her to take it? It just seems to be this: You’re in steep decline once you hit 25, baby, and there’s nothing you can do about it — hope you married young, otherwise you’re hosed. How is a woman supposed to use this information to improve herself and therefore her marriage?

  15. GC says:

    Agree that this is discouraging. Women see or hear almost every day something that sends the message, “If you’re not 25 and hot, you’re nothing.” Husbands get frustrated when they say, “You’re hot, you’re beautiful,” and their wives don’t believe them. It’s because so many competing messages say “You’re old and unattractive.”

  16. FeralFelis says:

    I am female and “of a certain age”.

    I know that Athol and other men say they find occasional value into reading the female perspective, but in a way, I feel sad that the men here have lost their “back room” where they could just be guys and hang out talking with each other.

    Athol, is there a possibility of considering a room on the forum where women can lurk but not comment? Just a thought….

  17. FeralFelis says:

    “occasional value in reading” not into. Sorry.

  18. I'm a man says:

    @FeralFelis – ditto for the back room. You just jumped +2 on the hotness meter. I enjoy looking at women of all ages but who the hell wants to spend time talking to a 25yr old women? Females of a certain age win with me.

  19. NH says:

    Love JR!! yeah she tells it like it is…..glad I quit cleaning the house and take an hour just to blow out my hair….

  20. Athol Kay says:

    Message = Don’t just slouch off into the future relying on his wife goggles to sustain his attraction to you. Keep your appearance well maintained.

    Don’t waste the pretty.

    The Red Pill doesn’t taste of chocolate.

    Also I’m making the point that women have a Red Pill and experience the potential for extreme loss in the SMP. The general opinion of much of the Manosphere being that the entire SMP and culture is so heavily rigged in women’s favor, that men shouldn’t consider joining in.

    I won’t be playing games of different forum rules for different sexes. Marriage is a team sport and we need awareness of both sides of the coin.

  21. Another Anon says:

    “Message = Don’t just slouch off into the future relying on his wife goggles to sustain his attraction to you. Keep your appearance well maintained.”

    Athol, that’s a very reasonable message. Certainly, we can make sure our figures are trim, our hair is long, we behave sweetly, get it on regularly with our husbands, etc. The problem (for me and my girl friends who read manosphere blogs) is the emphasis on YOUTH. There’s nothing we can do about getting older, and it’s a source of great pain for many of us to hear repeatedly that men crave YOUNG beauty. Unless, of course, what’s meant by that is a wife doing her best to preserve her youthful vigor for as long as possible. That, at least, offers hope and therefore incentive for a woman to put a lot of effort into maintaining herself.

  22. Linanati says:

    I LOVED the 2nd one. Funny, funny.

  23. Athol Kay says:

    Another Anon – The importance of maintaining youthful appearance is a very important message the Manosphere has for women. 40something married women getting hit on is common. Divorced 40something women getting a better man than the husband they divorced is rare. Knowing that is wisdom and can change your behavior and get you a better outcome.

    The truth is the source of the pain. Not my saying it.

    Also for the husband who has been denied sex and love for years to decades from his wife, to understand that his value is greater than hers, that the whole time he has been turning into an 8 while she is sinking to a 5… that’s a life changing thought. After years of rejection and soul crushing scorn for his interest in her, realizing that the primary source of her value to him is the value he imputes to her… is like waking from a bad dream.

  24. GC says:

    “Message = Don’t just slouch off into the future relying on his wife goggles to sustain his attraction to you. Keep your appearance well maintained. Don’t waste the pretty.”
    Thank you, Athol – this makes me feel less discouraged.

    @Another Anon – agree with your points. Also, that is why I have pretty much given up reading other manosphere blogs. Too discouraging – and not necessarily representative of average men. I am just working hard to do the things that attract my husband and make him happy. I think he appreciates the beauty of youth, but is not craving it.

  25. RedPillAwakening says:

    FeralFelis said: “I know that Athol and other men say they find occasional value into reading the female perspective, but in a way, I feel sad that the men here have lost their “back room” where they could just be guys and hang out talking with each other.”

    As a male reader I totally feel this way. It may not be true that 80% of the comments here now are from women, but it feels that way. It has been said that the moment one female walks into a room full of males, the entire social dynamic changes. I believe this. And there is also the lingering bitterness of realizing the lie of the blue pill, and understanding that it was largely women who force-fed it to us during our most formative years. The damage takes literally years to undo. I often skip the comments from women or ignore them outright due to the jarring red pill realization that most women don’t even understand themselves well enough to know what they want, and everything that they say they want is all blue pill lies that they also happen to believe. I understand what Athol is doing is growing out of the Manosphere, and is probably too big for the Manosphere to contain anyway, but I do sometimes still feel irritated by the female invasion. I apologize if I am being too blunt, and I do plan to stay around here and play nice, but the red pill is all about truth and honesty, right? Even when it hurts..

    But I do appreciate you and thank you Felis for acknowledging it. Stay around.. I know Athol will keep everyone on track and all hamsters in check. I have been exploring other Manosphere destinations as well, but so far none have the combination of positive attitude, insight, and hope that mmsl provides. And I freely acknowledge that I am still struggling with the dark side. My marriage was virtually sexless for probably about 2 years, my wife ran up a ton of debt, and by the time I understood what I had to do and took control again I had become very angry about all of it. I am very fortunate that I discovered Athol at the same time that I discovered the rest of the ‘sphere. If I had discovered it just a couple of years earlier, I would have been sucked into some of the more negative woman-bashing sites like they were black holes, and crossed the event horizon never to return. I probably would have divorced and MGTOW’d. Since I didn’t, my marriage is turning around, my wife is responding again the way I need her to, and things are getting better. There are good days and bad days, but overall the trend line is going up. Thanks to Athol’s patient explanations of the cold hard truths about women, I finally have hope.

  26. Athol Kay says:

    Jennifer and my female commentators are my best defense against a feminist themed backlash. There have been a number of times in recent months where my beloved female readers have kicked in the shit of feminist styled trolling. There’s nothing quite like having someone leave angry comments about how MMSL is oppressive to women and have 3-4 different female readers angrily tell them to get lost.

    The forum has a lot of wives comparing notes and cooing about being First Officers. Do they mess up sometimes and say some Blue Pill stuff? Sure they do. But then so do the men. MMSL is an educational experience and you don’t silence students on the first day because they aren’t already graduates. Female readers aren’t just tolerated at MMSL. They are encouraged and frankly required for my continued success and safety.

    I’m playing a deep strategy here. ;-)

  27. AnonJohn says:

    Amen.

  28. Me says:

    I agree that men of all ages are more attracted to younger women. But most of them won’t have one because there aren’t enough to go around. For the most part young women prefer young men. The marriage stats confirm this. Really there’s no reason to get worked up about it. Game or no game most men won’t have enough money to make a significantly younger woman want to be with them and put up with the child support alimony and ex baggage that they are carrying. But it makes them feel better to imagine that the only thing keeping their balding, chubby, approaching middle age middle class selves from bliss with a hot 23 year old is their dedication to their spouse. Don’t ruin the fantasy. Tell him that any hot young thing would live to have him.

  29. Another Anon says:

    “Knowing that is wisdom and can change your behavior and get you a better outcome.”

    I think I understand now. This is wisdom for a certain type of woman — the type who doesn’t take her marriage vows seriously. I’m a Marriage 1.0 kind of woman. It’s inconceivable that I would leave my husband, therefore this knowledge changes nothing for me.

    “The truth is the source of the pain. Not my saying it.”

    Certainly, but saying it bluntly reminds one of the pain, just as poking a finger in an open wound reminds one of the pain. Vox Day dealt with this truth in a very gentle, uplifting way not that long ago. He didn’t minimize the truth, but he put it in a highly motivating and uplifting context. “Don’t divorce him, because by now your SMV is circling the drain” is not motivating to a woman like me. “As long as you put in the effort, your husband is the one man on earth who will always see you as the youthful girl you were on the day he fell in love with you” was a REVELATION, and it makes me want to do backflips to bring him joy. That’s the wisdom a Marriage 1.0 woman needs.

  30. Joe Commenter says:

    Anon and AnotherAnon and the other female posters: The site may have many female readers but the message is about MEN as in Married MAN Sex Life. Changing the message to make women feel better about themselves is not productive. The whole rest of the world is all about “you go girl”.

    Perhaps this post was inspired by the feeling that it sucks beyond belief to be rejected by 5 females just to get a date with 1. This post makes It feels good to know that Karma is alive and well. That those girls that would not give me the time of day in high school are now fat ugly cows and I am so glad that things did not work out between them and me. And now *I* would never give *them* the time of day. Most every man I know carries some level of bitterness of these countless rejections. Knowing that men become more eligible as the age and women less eligible is satisfying. It’s like watching another car doing 100 MPH pass you by on the highway and then you passing them as they get pulled over for speeding by the state police.

    Females do not carry this bitterness because they don’t have to do any asking out for dates. Females don’t get rejected in that way. What makes it more galling is that I have always been a good-quality, high earning potential (actualized now), standup man. Women ignored me and could not have cared less about those qualities. It was only after I learned asshole game, became selfish and arrogant, that I got female attention. Go figure.

    I’m happily married for 25 years so this is all water under the bridge to some extent. But it leaves a mark.

  31. Another Anon says:

    Just so you know where I’m coming from, I’m totally on board with the MAP. I’ve recommended your book to a couple of male friends who are experiencing marriage problems, and I think every man needs to know this stuff. I’m just not on board with the context-free reminders to wives that their appeal is declining rapidly, but I understand their value to women who are not fully committed to their marriages.

  32. Another Anon says:

    Joe, unless I’m mistaken, this particular post had a message for us women. Out of respect, I never comment on the posts aimed at men, but I do occasionally wade in on the ones aimed more at us gals. The problem is, the message is lost in translation for some of us. We use the same words as you men, but we don’t always speak the same language. And we have a difficult time with bluntness. I saw this with my parents growing up. Give the truth to Dad straight up and unvarnished, and it’s no problem. Try the same thing with Mom, and you’re dead in the water. Anyway, it’s not about “you go girl,” it’s about framing the truth in a way that’s going to be productive. In other words, in a way that’s going to make your First Officer give 110% instead of wondering why she shouldn’t just throw herself overboard.

  33. Joe Commenter says:

    Another Anon says: “In other words, in a way that’s going to make your First Officer give 110% instead of wondering why she shouldn’t just throw herself overboard.”

    Well said. I missed your point originally. With a good quality captain, your giving 110% will get you back 110%. Going the xtra mile does make you more vulnerable. In the best world you will not get taken advantage of. I believe that most everyone on this board is aiming for that kind of dynamic. Where both parties are fully committed.

    Married men really do have those “wife goggles”. We always will see our wives as when we first met. Objectively speaking my wife may be anywhere from a 6-8 SMV. But I see her as much higher than that. I always will. My hunch is that your mate has those goggles too.

  34. Another Anon says:

    “With a good quality captain, your giving 110% will get you back 110%.”

    That’s the great thing about you men. :^)

    “My hunch is that your mate has those goggles too.”

    Lucky for me, I think he probably does, Joe.

  35. RedPillAwakening says:

    Joe Commenter said: “Anon and AnotherAnon and the other female posters: The site may have many female readers but the message is about MEN as in Married MAN Sex Life. Changing the message to make women feel better about themselves is not productive. The whole rest of the world is all about “you go girl”.

    Perhaps this post was inspired by the feeling that it sucks beyond belief to be rejected by 5 females just to get a date with 1. This post makes It feels good to know that Karma is alive and well. That those girls that would not give me the time of day in high school are now fat ugly cows and I am so glad that things did not work out between them and me. And now *I* would never give *them* the time of day. Most every man I know carries some level of bitterness of these countless rejections. Knowing that men become more eligible as the age and women less eligible is satisfying. It’s like watching another car doing 100 MPH pass you by on the highway and then you passing them as they get pulled over for speeding by the state police.

    Females do not carry this bitterness because they don’t have to do any asking out for dates. Females don’t get rejected in that way. What makes it more galling is that I have always been a good-quality, high earning potential (actualized now), standup man. Women ignored me and could not have cared less about those qualities. It was only after I learned asshole game, became selfish and arrogant, that I got female attention. Go figure.

    I’m happily married for 25 years so this is all water under the bridge to some extent. But it leaves a mark.”

    Joe, you freaking rock. This is my feelings exactly. Rejection, rejection, rejection is all you ever experience as a young man. Every women around you sees straight through you, you are invisible because they all think they are better than you, they think the sun shines out of their bumholes. Now at age 37 I finally have a career making great money, I have confidence, I am physically fit, dress well, and I know it. I’m only getting better each day. This is my time. And yes I am angry, and yes it did leave a mark. And I guess that is why it now feels so good to know all of those girls from back then got so fat and now look so bad.

    And Athol, I know you are right, and I apologize that my dark side and anger keeps showing in the comments, I know it doesn’t help you or the cause any. I’m working on it and you are helping me more than you know. But I have so many years of being ignored, taken advantage of, being friendzoned, and being rejected by females to work through, it may take a long time. Keep doing exactly what you are doing. You are destined for greatness. If my bitterness shows too much and you have to ban me I understand, do what is best for mmsl. But above all, keep doing what you’re doing. It will make a difference. It already has to me.

  36. Joe Commenter says:

    Right RedPill: Women don’t understand where this anger comes from. But it comes from the many actual to your face rejection. In addition we men get rejected tens of times per day thru women’s nonverbal comm. I try to start up a convo w/ any random woman and at least half of them are going to brush me aside. Some not so nicely either. I remember all of these rejections. I wish I didn’t but I do. For females, this is all just a normal as drinking some water. And the women feel none of this indignity and pain. Women don’t care. They say, just get over it. Man up. \

    THe girls just have to remember that Karma can be a bitch.

    REdpill, i don’t think you’d be banned for anger. I think you get banned for anger dumping on other posters or insulting them. In my mind, well thought out anger is just as valid as any other emotion. As long as it’s not directed at other readers.

  37. JCclimber says:

    Ah, red pill awakening….
    here is your problem. You are (justifiably) angry about being steeped in a tea made of blue-pill tea bags. No problem with that. The problem is that you are focused on the people who made you suffer back then.
    Give. It. Up. Cut almost contact with your age group women. And those who insist on feeding you further blue-pill poison.

    Start dating women in their early to mid-20′s. Unless you are already married, and feel stuck. In the latter case, move your family somewhere else and run the map. You need to be clear with your wife that she needs to run the map to keep up with you, or lose you permanently.

  38. BlackCat says:

    move your family somewhere else and run the map.

    In the event a move away from negative influences must be made, I think it is important to start running the map before making the move, even if this means fighting against the negative influences for the time being. The reasons for this are:

    - You will be uprooting wife (and kids?) from friends and familiar surroundings, and you need at least a little hand (alpha) to do that.
    - People grow to be like those around them expect them to be. This is what psychology refers to as a “self-fulfilling prophecy” whereby people treat you according to their impressions (= expectations), and you unconsciously respond to those expectations. If you move without changing yourself first, expect to be treated the same way (and have your wife start by making the same kinds of friends) in the new location.
    - Moving takes time to set up and execute. If you are truly in a bad situation where moving is necessary, then you don’t have any time to waste. Start running the map now while making preparations.

  39. The MacNut says:

    What many of you ladies objecting to the message of this post fail to realize is that it’s a female-oriented version of the same message Athol’s been giving to men since the start of this blog, namely if they want their wives to be attracted to them, then those men have to make themselves more attractive. That’s what the MAP (Male Action Plan) is, a plan for husbands to make themselves more attractive for their wives. In this post he’s basically saying women need a Female Action Plan to keep their husbands interested, especially as they get older.

  40. RedPillNewb says:

    Some years ago, in a conversation on a non-PUA blog about PUAs, I told some true stories of rejection. The women in the conversation all denied that anyone could be so cruel or offensive, and the men (many of them good friendzone betas by their own admission) jumped in to say they had similar stories. And then some of the women told us of rejecting men cruelly, while still denying that my stories were true, AND insisting that the cruelty was justified by the fact that the guy rejected was an asshole (or unattractive, whatever).

    I think women don’t even realize how cruel they’re being much of the time. Even my wife will sometimes repeat the rejection stories I have told her to me for a laugh–which I really wouldn’t mind, if she wasn’t also rejecting and friendzoning me. Subconsciously, she wants me to be a sad pathetic puppy that she rescued from the pound–partly because that’s what I was when we first met, and because that means I can’t ever look elsewhere (not that I even WANT to look elsewhere). So she reminds me of how I was hurt in the past and calls it humor.

    Men don’t have feelings, right?

  41. Athena says:

    I keep seeing the comment that a 40-something woman who divorces is usually going to get stuck with a husband worse than the one she divorced. Absolutely not true for me, and I’ve about decided that this gem is actually the male rationalization hamster trying to keep women hanging around while you guys get off your lazy asses and run your MAP. I got tired of waiting. I kicked him to the curb and found someone older, wiser, sexier, healthier, and with better long-term earning potential. And being with him had made me improve myself. Since I met him I’ve quit smoking, lost weight, gotten fit, stopped some of the medications I was on, And I just feel better about myself and my life.
    So go ahead and keep reminding us that we are getting old, guys, but just remember, you all are, too.

  42. I'm a man says:

    Many of the women here are so worried about loosing their men’s attention but statistically women initiate the divorce.
    @Redpill and Joe…this is why divorced women face a huge fitness test when they start dating again. Early sex and oral sex are a requirement. The divorced men have been clearly educated on what it means to be passive with women and have paid a high emotional and financial price for that education.

  43. Highlander says:

    Redpillnews,

    My experience on other blogs with women has been much the same, particularly those dealing with Peri/menopause. They’ll post page after page about the vitriol they feel towards their husbands, then say feel they are going crazy because he hasn’t done anything to deserve it.

    The sad thing is though, when a husband posts what’s happening to his marriage since his wife entered Peri and asks for advice, he’s told to “suck it up”, even though if he treated his wife in the same manner her girlfriends would be all calling for his head and to leave him. One dare not mention this fact though, because then it’s automatically dumped back on him because ” your wife FEELS that you did not( fill in the blank)” . There is almost never any responsibility taken for the wives action’s, and when cornered with quotes from their own statements about being “unfaithful, borderline insane and verbally abusive” to their own husbands ,they attack you as being bitter and angry ;~)

    The red pill is bitter, particularly for those of us who only ever wanted a life partner, wore “Husband Goggles” and put our total trust in the one we married. For men who have gone through this, after you go through all the soul seeking and tearing apart your whole married life looking for answers, it is like a rebirth. If you’ve done it right you’ll never look at women and relationships the same ever again.

  44. holdingallthecards says:

    I have been staying at a hotel for the past few days on business, and I can assure you that most of the moms look horrible — overweight, short hair (or shoulder length with bangs — the “mom” do), and ignoring their husbands. Age has nothing to do with it, and I believe this is an easy out for women.

    Put on your bikini, ladies, and head down to the pool. Do men stare at you, do they do fancy flips and dives and cannonballs in front of you to grab your attention? I might be 39, but the gym has worked wonders for my hips and waist. If you are genuinely repulsed about the way you look in that swimsuit, then quit blaming the 26 year olds for turning your man’s head.

    With regards to “I’m a Man” scaring wives into staying in sexless marriages rather than divorcing, I have to repeat one of Athol’s comments: “Do not (re)marry unless the person is exceptional.” And for goodness sake, don’t settle for a jerk who makes you uncomfortable with his demands. The goal is to be happy and have great sex, not to marry out of desperation to just be married. Good men are out there; hold out for them.

  45. Joe Commenter says:

    Now, whenever I complain about this cruel treatment to my wife, she reminds me that had she not given the could shoulder to a whole bunch of men before I met her, I would never have had the chance to be with her. And I understand this concept. 25 years of happy marriage now. She stayed a virgin until she met me. She tells me she always hated the process of trying to ignore the boys hitting on her and I believe that.

    It’s like a job search. I interviewed with 10 companies to find my current job. I’m happy that I am where I am, but I’ll always have a chip on my shoulder over those other firms that thought I just didn’t have the total package of potential.

  46. The MacNut says:

    One of life’s great ironies is that many of those same overweight short-haired bangs-sporting moms, if/when they divorce some years down the line, will drop the weight like it’s nothing and grow their hair back out as well. They know that’s what it’ll take to get the attention of the opposite sex again when they rejoin the SMP, so they do it. God help their husbands if they suggest she could stand to lose a few pounds though…

  47. Highlander says:

    MacNut your point is bang on. So many times we hear of how a husband has ignored his part in the marriage, didn’t communicate, wasn’t attentive enough etc.. meanwhile the wife is content to let herself slide until she gets a tingle on for some other guy. This tells me women are just as bad as men in getting complacent in a long term marriage, but coasting along with the bare minimum of commitment until a better deal comes along.

  48. Liz says:

    @Joe Commenter:

    “Right RedPill: Women don’t understand where this anger comes from. But it comes from the many actual to your face rejection. In addition we men get rejected tens of times per day thru women’s nonverbal comm. I try to start up a convo w/ any random woman and at least half of them are going to brush me aside. Some not so nicely either. I remember all of these rejections. I wish I didn’t but I do. For females, this is all just a normal as drinking some water. And the women feel none of this indignity and pain. Women don’t care. They say, just get over it. Man up.”
    =========================

    “This post makes It feels good to know that Karma is alive and well. That those girls that would not give me the time of day in high school are now fat ugly cows and I am so glad that things did not work out between them and me. And now *I* would never give *them* the time of day.”
    ======================

    “…but I’ll always have a chip on my shoulder over those other firms that thought I just didn’t have the total package of potential.”
    =========================

    Well, yeah, man up. I have no sympathy – none whatsoever – for you. FWIW, I have no sympathy for women who whine that no man wants them either. So, please, no bitching about “feminist shame talk”.

    No woman has any obligation to talk to you, much less date or have sex with you. You can try to initiate conversations with “random women” (your words). She owes you nothing, and if she wants to reject you for whatever reason, then that’s life, cupcake. I can guarantee that there would be little sympathy for you here, if you were a woman complaining that men gave you the cold shoulder, but you were talking about situations where they owed you nothing.

    There is something so unbelievably Omega about a grown man still bitching about being rejected in High School (after 20+ years of marriage!), not least because it was always at least partly his own fault. Get councelling. Do something, rather than working yourself into a hormonal tizzy about it.

    Part of Game is numbers. Not all, but part. A real player succeeds because he can approach women nonchalantly, without this fury if he gets shot down. There’s no pressure. There’s no fury or whining self pity because he’s rejected – if you react with this level of anger decades after the fact, then women don’t feel safe around you. With good reason.

  49. MILF in Training says:

    I agree with MacNut, and I’m on a red pill mission to make myself the hottest 50+ woman in my social circles.

    I did not want a divorce, but when the Captain goes batshit, sometimes the First Officer has to mutiny to protect herself and the crew. So I’m back in the marketplace, without the benefit of wife goggles.

    I’m glad that not all men in my age group are looking for Starfish girls. They’re willing to sacrifice a point or two for more beta and skill. They won’t accept a 4, but maybe if I’m a 6.75 (especially when my competition is 4-5), I’ll get a second look.

    As with most comediennes of her era, Rivers is over the top, with just a little truth that hurts. There’s no freaking way I’m going to compete against a 20-something 9 WITH A MAN LOOKING FOR A 9. I’ll never be a 9 again. But there are plenty of men who no longer want the 9. Aren’t there, older men?

  50. RedPillNewb says:

    Liz,
    Look at the story that started this. Holdingallthecards got a nice ego boost from a flirtations young man, and…she kicked him in the nuts with a fake number. That is a shitty thing to do. If she’s been perfectly honest–in an unhappy marriage but unavailable until the divorce was final–they both could have walked away with that someone-flirted-with-me glow. Instead she got the glow and he got a cruel rejection, for no apparent reason. I’m starting to think she and her asshole husband deserve each other.

    I agree that no woman owes me sex, or conversation, and I can “man up” and take that reality. But they do owe me basic human decency, and for some reason many women disagree.

  51. Joe Commenter says:

    @Liz. Don’t need your sympathy. I am quite successful and nobody feels “unsafe” around me. Yes you are certainly free to call me all kinds of names, omega may not be the worst you’ve got. But judging from the fury in your post this omega seems to have hit a nerve with you. Is everything OK back at the ranch?

  52. AnonJohn says:

    “But there are plenty of men who no longer want the 9. Aren’t there, older men?”

    HAHAHAHAHA NO!

    Well, no man of quality.

    I mean seriously, what man of quality says to himself, gee, I could get a 9…but i’ll settled for a 5?

    NONE

    That there, is the point.

  53. I'm a man says:

    @liz – you’re right, no one has to be interested in another person. I think the guys were angry about the rejections due to the tone of the rejection. Bitchy and haughty can carry a sting and its not necessary. Personally i now consider that dodging a bullet, my old “nice guy” self would see it as a challenge to win her approval and make her laugh….stupid me.
    I made sure my son was clearly educated and bought him “The system” by Dr. Love over at AskMen.com it clearly explains how to qualify quality women. He ate it up and has had great success and is currently dating a giving, funny, caring girl. Only if his buddies would follow his advice….many of his friends have been raised by single moms, these boys have a difficult time with girls. They are good looking, physically fit but have zero game and don’t know how to behave. One day my son may need MMSL, hopefully never.

  54. Badger says:

    “I keep seeing the comment that a 40-something woman who divorces is usually going to get stuck with a husband worse than the one she divorced. Absolutely not true for me, and I’ve about decided that this gem is actually the male rationalization hamster trying to keep women hanging around while you guys get off your lazy asses and run your MAP.”

    Just because you’re an exception doesn’t mean the rule is wrong. If you got a better deal in middle-age remarriage you’re very, very lucky (and probably of good quality which you can take credit for).

    This is a bizarre but predictable tendency among people and among women in particular, to insist that a counterexample means that a generalized or statistical truism is all of a sudden false. People survive not wearing seat belts but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

  55. Liz says:

    @Joe Commenter:

    Everything’s fine. I was just sick of the self pity spiral that I was seeing. You can’t indulge that stuff.

    Also, all I can see is what you write. You were whining about rejections from high school. The anger you felt, and the fact that you still say you have a chip on your shoulder…it *is* Omega.

  56. CarolinaGirl64 says:

    @MILF in training – I am a 47 y/o GILF and my SO is a 52 y/o professional with a PhD. He was married/together with one woman for 30 years (no kids). My ex never went to college and could not hold onto a job until after I left him and he had to in order to live. I stayed single for 15 years while raising my kids (my ex did a better job of staying involved with them once we were divorced). There are older men out there looking for quality and to them a 7 in looks with a brain = a 9, while a 9 in looks who can’t hold a conversation = a 7. Hold out for the quality guy who not only wants to be Captain and is looking for a First Officer, but he has the ability to BE the Captain. THAT guy will value you for the easy going, sexy fun loving, red pill woman that you are. And you will value him for all the great qualities he displays as well.
    There are men out there who will want you. Good Luck finding your Captain.

  57. NG says:

    One thing I learned in High School, which made my dating and relationship life easier afterwards was
    **** Not every boy I liked was going to like me back.
    **** Not every boy who liked me, was I going to like back

    However, when the two things above collided it was always great.

  58. Joe Commenter says:

    @Liz: I have no grudge against you. Yes my rant is totally omega. I will own that. I come here to get my omega on because I have to be bullet proof in real life. I have made a science of shoving down any of those vulnerability feelings. I do not carry around balls of rage on a daily basis. I have a pretty cushy life. But once in a while something will remind me of the shittiness of having to put myself out there to get any action. So this is where I do my Beta/Omega. I”m human, indulge me a little. Seriously who am I gonna talk to about this, my wife? Not a good idea. My manly man friends? No that’s not good either. The people that work for or with me? No, can’t do that. I guess MMSL is all I got.

    I am really a bit surprised that the Joan Rivers thing made surfaced this mood in me. I am in no way, shape or form dating or even thinking about it. So it’s not like I’ve been turned down in the last 25 years or anything like that.

    I will say tho that I believe this rejection anger is more common in men that you would think. The guys that I can talk to about this experience the same thing.

  59. Liz says:

    @Joe Commenter:

    Yes, MMSL is a safe haven for those less than, uh, attractive feelings. But, again, all I see is what you put down.

    I will admit, however, that a lot of my comment was directed just as much, or more, against the other bitter guys as against you. And I can guarantee you that if a woman whined in a similar way about past rejections, even as a way of venting, these same guys would have no sympathy for her.

  60. ffp20 says:

    @Athena: regarding all those things u did to improve yourself….if you did them when you were together maybe you’d still be together.

  61. Ben says:

    Sorry, I know this was about forty posts back at this point, but I didn’t check the comments all this weekend so I’m just now reading through them:

    “Athol, that’s a very reasonable message. Certainly, we can make sure our figures are trim, our hair is long, we behave sweetly, get it on regularly with our husbands, etc. The problem (for me and my girl friends who read manosphere blogs) is the emphasis on YOUTH. There’s nothing we can do about getting older, and it’s a source of great pain for many of us to hear repeatedly that men crave YOUNG beauty.”

    Imagine we were talking about literally any other difficult, challenging task you had before you. Imagine we were talking about mountain climbing. “Certainly I can make sure that I’m properly supplied and equipped and that I’ve trained to take on this mountain. The problem for me is the emphasis on HEIGHT. There’s nothing I can do about how high that mountain is, and it’s a source of great pain to hear repeatedly how HIGH that mountain is going to be when I climb it.”

    That mountain is going to be as high as it is whether you acknowledge it or not. That mountain doesn’t care about your feelings. If that mountain is too high for you, it’s totally up to you whether or not to climb it. But if you set out to climb that mountain without taking proper account of every bit of elevation you’re going to have to surmount, best case scenario you just fail to climb the mountain. And worst case scenario, you’re badly injured or dead.

    “Unless, of course, what’s meant by that is a wife doing her best to preserve her youthful vigor for as long as possible. That, at least, offers hope and therefore incentive for a woman to put a lot of effort into maintaining herself.”

    That is why it’s of utmost importance that you assess what you’re up against realistically. Wishing that mountain were lower won’t make it so.

  62. Charles says:

    Liz, this site isn’t about men posting to seek the approval of a pack of women; it is about married men getting their sex lives back to what they ought to be. Each time a man makes himself vulnerable here only to have such women as you point and say “loser”, you make this site’s mission harder to accomplish.

  63. Myrtle says:

    I have to disagree that it is “rare” for a divorced fortysomething woman to remarry or re-partner pretty well, if she wants to. Lord knows I know plenty of divorced fortysomethings of both sexes. They mostly seem to hook up with… each other. lol (Granted, I wonder if some of these repairings represent an objective improvement over the old ones.. especially once you knock off some points for a certain inevitable amount of step-family conflict, but they mostly seem pleased with their new arrangements.)

    Joan Rivers lived, and lives, among a much richer, prettier and more idle set than most regular people do. I am sure her idea of what constitutes an eligible guy is a lil different than most women’s. On the flip side, Hollywood, unlike most places, DOES have a river of freshly-minted hotties flocking to it every year, hoping to make the cut.

    Not to mention, what motive *is* there to remarry for women in their forties? You are past childbearing age, and (presumably) you are at least employable enough to not need someone to keep a roof over your head– so why *would* you be chasing legal marriage? Makes sense for a gal in her twenties, thirties maybe, someone looking to start a family, but after that… a nice gentleman caller who GOES HOME after his visit might turn out to be just the ticket. :p

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