Sexy Move: Don’t Get Her Wet

If Jennifer and I are going somewhere – a mall, a restaurant, a school event, the movies – and we get there and the weather is fine, we typically find a parking place and walk in together.

But if we arrive and it’s raining, especially if it’s raining hard, I drop her off as close to the entrance as I can so she can make the quick scurry inside into the dry. After that I find a parking place, and make the longer run to shelter. Sometimes I’m drenched lol, but she’s dry. The other half of the protocol is that she typically gets in line for whatever it is we’re going to see.

This all seems quite Beta and that’s because it is. I’m making a move designed to provide comfort for her. However it’s only a very minor inconvenience for me to drop her off at the door, and it provides her with a lot of comfort. Thirty seconds of heavy rain can undo thirty minutes of hair and makeup, and you’re left looking at her wilted self.

But it’s also somewhat of an Alpha move too in that I don’t give Jennifer the option of walking through the rain. I just swing it around to the front of the building and stop the car. I’m driving the car and this is your stop lady. Out you go. Usually the girls are with us too and that turns it into a three person deployment to safety and warmth. The Captain sees the First Officer and crew to safety.

To her credit, Jennifer has always thanked me for this move, and that’s all I need. If she was bitchy about it… getting drenched is a natural consequence.

Jennifer:  The hair thing is so true.


  1. Being expendable is alpha, not beta. Doing something decent for someone else is not always “beta”.

  2. holdingallthecards says:

    Chivalry — treating her and any woman like a lady — should be taught by example by dads so that sons do it as second nature. And just like Jennifer does, a lady should always acknowledge the gesture with a smile, wink, or a thank you.

    I disagree with Athol that this is Beta. I think it’s simply romantic, or in the case of doing this for another female relative or stranger, just a sign of good upbringing/gentlemanly manners.

  3. Good one, Athol. My husband does this, too.
    I usually try to say “Oh, you don’t have to. It’s ok. Don’t worry about it!”
    And he’ll just say “Hush. Get out. I’ll be right there.”
    So yeah, to me, it seems a bit alpha as well.
    SO right about the hair! Us Texas gals are known for our big hair and rain is our mortal enemy.
    I used to carry a hair dryer in my backpack in highschool for times when I got drenched at the bus stop. I’d get to school and start blowdrying in the bathroom and other girls coming in would look at me like I was crazy.
    So yeah, preserving the hair gets my husband major points.

  4. “Thirty seconds of heavy rain can undo thirty minutes of hair and makeup”

    Awwwwww, That is so flipping thoughtful. I’m so happy to report that Hubby does this for me to. **happy sigh**. I don’t know if this is beta or alpha, but it rules.

  5. Wait, there are people out there that DON’T do this kind of thing?

    (Though here in Phoenix, it’s the long walk through the 130 degree parking lot that gets avoided…)

  6. As a well-known Science officer would say “It’s only logical”
    It’s about accepting the smaller differences between two people and making plans and routines, that accommodate for these differences.

    She wears make-up, has an elaborate hair style and is probably dressed in shoes that cost more than an African family earns in a month. All of which can be destroyed by the rain.
    He wears no make-up, his hair is cropped short and his shoes can take him over a battlefield, not to mention 500 meters of a wet parking lot.
    It is quite obvious who is getting wet and who is getting a ride right next to the entrance.

    Now in a family, where these assumptions would not be true (e.g. he wears more make-up than she does, his hair is longer and more styled than hers, his shoes are more expensive – etc.), it would be natural for the woman to both drive and let the less water-resistant husband run for cover while she parks the car.
    And it’s fine – whatever rocks your boat.

  7. Angeline says:

    I just love this. I never had it in 30 years of marriage, even when gigantically pregnant, so I always protest, and my fella willl say “Shut it woman. Out you go.” He also *always* walks the couple of elderly ladies who are regulars at our local out to their cars. They get such a charge out of it, he gets peace of mind that no one is mugging them.

  8. There’s nothing beta about traditional chivalry. It’s a good thing no matter what the circumstances or who the participants. As an acknowledgement of the natural male/female dynamic, it makes everyone feel great (or should).

  9. Flipper says:

    I watched a guy do the exact opposite the other day. His daughter asked if he would pick them up at the door, and he said “that’s not going to happen.” And they all walked in the rain. I thought he was a total tool. His whole family walked in the rain.

  10. I’ve always done this for Mrs. Ironwood, perhaps because it’s ingrained in the whole Southern Gentleman concept. It IS Beta, but as Athol says, it’s a good kinda comfort-and-safety providing Beta. But it’s also Alpha, because you are not requesting, nor being requested, to do it.

    And that’s an important element about chivalry (and I use this term in its proper sense, not mere civil politeness) that most people, even men, forget: chivalry must come from a place of strength, and it cannot be obligated. If it is not performed with grace, it’s mere social obligation and unworthy of note.

    And yes, Mrs. Ironwood thanks me every single time, too. Because she’s a woman worth of note.

  11. I’ve always done this. And also, there is a bonus feature when you do this at the movie theater: you don’t have to stand in line to get the tickets… by the time you have parked the car and walked back to the ticket dispenser, your wife has already procured them. Win/Win.

    Another chivalric Beta move that I learned from my grandfather and has always served me well: Sometime during the weekend, take your wife’s car and run it through the car wash and top it off with gas. I often take my daughter with me on this excursion (we live in the sticks, which requires “a drive” to get to car wash and gas station) and it is good catch up time for us, plus she sees daddy doing something loving for mommy, which I think is a good example.

    My grandfather took this a bit to the extreme side… my grandmother is 82 and has absolutely no idea how to use a gas pump.

  12. horseman says:

    Its called manners. Dropping off in the rain, holding a door open, helping am elderly gemtleman with a heavy package.
    Every winter I plow by hand my driveway, the preacher’s across the road and the neighbor’s barn laneway. 2Why? Like I son…because I can. If you can do somethimng for others just anners are sorely missing from this world.
    oh. and say thank you to the cashier at the market. do it. No reward needed. Grace and m

  13. Fred Lunge says:

    I don’t think this kind of courteous/chivalrous behavior is beta. It’s done from a position of strength, you do it because you want to/it’s right, not in hope of an unspoken return favor later she is supposed to telepathically deduce. (Just as you cannot telepathically deduce WHAT SHE REALLY WANTS WHAT SHE REALLY REALLY WANTS).

    The beta move would be indecision and self-abasement, throwing it back to her: “want me to drop you at the door? Or not? You decide. I don’t want to suggest I would impugn your personal decision-making capabilities or otherwise oppress you with my male chauvinist pigginess by deciding for you, and maybe you like walking in the rain and that is your valid choice as a fully-formed persun”

  14. you know what frustrates the hell out of me? when i see a couple in the car together with the women driving. it is very metaphorical and revealing imo.

  15. Love this. My husband does it too. He also takes my car to do errands on weekends so that he can fill it up. And I have never checked the oil in 26 years of marriage. I know how to check the oil, I just don’t have to do it. Which I appreciate.

  16. It’s simply polite. Neither alpha nor beta- if you’d drop your mom or aunt off at the doorstep and do it for your woman.

    When simple considerations are reduced to the “is it alpha or beta” gameshow. That’s what it becomes.

  17. RedPillNewb says:

    I’ve always done this, but I have to say that I kind of resent being asked to do it. What, you think I wasn’t going to until you asked? Of course I was!

  18. @holdingallthecards, Fred Lunge:

    One thing I like about Athol’s writing versus a lot of the rest of the Manosphere is that he doesn’t define “Beta” as “the opposite of Alpha” and therefore bad. I think you (especially Fred Lunge) might be confusing Beta with Gamma (actually being submissive to your wife/S.O.).

    TOO MUCH Beta can be bad, especially when paired with a lack of Alpha. But Beta in and of itself is good.

    This is Beta in the very best sense. It doesn’t inconvenience you at all: as the driver of the vehicle, you’re going to have to walk through the rain from your parking spot regardless. It takes maybe thirty seconds to swing around and drop your passenger off. Thirty extra seconds so that only one person has to get wet instead of two or more seems like a good deal to me.

  19. I agree with Ben here. This is definitely a Beta move. And if you are the kind of guy who routinely lets your wife walk all over you and is overly supplicative, this might be a behaviour that you actually would want to withhold for awhile as you up your game: Park intentionally far away from the entrance, in the rain, give her a wink and say, “I know I usually drop you off at the door, but it’s been awhile since I saw you in a wet t-shirt.” Then get out and start walkng towards the entrance before she has a chance to object. She’ll be pissed… but intrigued.

    But when your Alpha and Beta are in good balance, this is an excellent and easy habit for maintaining her feeling of having a protective bond with you. It will reinforce her appreciation of you, but probabably won’t make her all fraught with horn for your love muscle.

  20. A reader says:

    “this might be a behaviour that you actually would want to withhold for awhile”

    Interesting. I’ve read all of Athol’s stuff (books & blog) and I didn’t get the impression that if you lack Alpha you should *subtract* Beta for its own sake (not as “punishment”). Seems like that would force-feed her hamster, since if I understand right, in marriage the hamster’s job boils down to spinning lack of attraction / desire for strange as lack of comfort. So now you’re not just an unsexy Herb, you’re an unsexy Herb who won’t even get the damn doors.

    Maybe I’m wrong, though; a lot of this is counterintuitive.

  21. Changed Man says:

    First, I agree that this both an Alpha & Beta move, as long as it comes from a position of strength. Also, withholding this ‘act of service’ may depend on whether your wife is Donkey or Princess Fiona.

  22. @reader 2:30PM

    That is a fair point, and as Changed Man says I’m sure it also depends on who you are married to and what your situation is. But in some cases I do think part of being Alpha includes making a conscious decision to withold Beta behavior, or to change Beta behavior into something more selfishly libidinous. That’s where the “wet t-shirt” part of that comment comes into play… you’re not just being an innate prick, but a flirty and playful prick. If you do it in an unsexy Herb-ish way, then you’ll get an unsexy Herb-ish result.

    And again, I’d only recommend that as an idea for a guy who has virtually no Alpha game in his marriage and is trying to come up with some. That’s one of the things I really like about Athol’s take on the Alpha/Beta matrix, even if it can also be frustrating to figure out… what may be a good idea for one guy in one marriage may also be terrible for another guy in another marriage with a different ratio of Alpha/Beta.

  23. Where my husband and I live, no one does this. Even the older men don’t. He will pull up for me and the kids if it’s pouring buckets, but not usually if it’s only moderately raining. He did it more often when we lived in a midwestern city where it was common to see a line of cars at the curb driven by men picking up their wives or girlfriends at the door in bad weather. Maybe I’ll ask him to see why he doesn’t so much anymore. I suspect it’s just that he doesn’t see the constant reminders of that behavior from other men doing it, and so doesn’t think of it. Interesting.

  24. GumbyMan says:

    I have always done this to, and I would hope that most guys who actually managed to get married would! Sadly though that is probably not the case. We don’t have kids for the captain and crew safety deployment thing, but when my wife and her single best friend and I are going somewhere I always drop them off at the door and then park (whether raining or not). It has a great double effect – My wife loves it and is always appreciative, but could start to just expect it. The friend always giggles or shrieks with excitement at the special treatment and that helps my wife realize that it is something special, and friend approval is always a good thing. You don’t want your wife’s best friend’s hamsters spinning about you either – as they talk about everything!!
    –Also as a pragmatic element of the move, if we are going out my wife will likely be in some sort of heal and I run faster than she does at the best of times so I can sprint across the parking lot faster so it works all around.

  25. RedPillNewb says:

    One note if you’re going to try this with young children: you can’t be one of those families that takes 5 minutes to get the stroller out, fiddle with carseat straps, stop and discuss what goes where, etc. This is a sub-60 second evolution, people, in or out. Know what needs doing and divy it up in advance.

  26. GumbyMan says:

    Another thought- From reading the No More Mr Nice Guy forum, it seems that there is some misconception that in order for a guy to stop being a pussy whipped nice guy, or a Beta door mat, they almost have to become a Macho Jerk ass-hole. That is obviously not the case, and this blog post and much of Athol’s other stuff have seemed to address that nicely and put Alpha/Beta in a good balance.

  27. @A reader:

    I don’t think subtracting Beta is necessarily a bad thing if one has it in overabundance; I would tend to think that an overabundance of Beta could lead to it being taken for granted / a sense of entitlement on the part of the woman. I want to say that there was something about this in the Primer to the effect that if a man is super nice to a woman and she’s not super nice to him, subconsciously she’s doing this Sex Rank equation where if Man + Major Niceness = Woman, then clearly, Man < Woman. In other words, she views his niceness as a way of compensating for his lack of attractiveness and hence a sign of weakness. Note that this is ONLY the case if his niceness is not reciprocated: if both partners are always doing nice things for each other, it balances out.

    (Unfortunately, "having mad sex with me" doesn't seem to count as a "nice thing" in this equation, as much as men may want it to, and therefore "doing nice things for women" doesn't tend to lead as directly to "women having mad sex with me" as we'd like. Ideally, she's having mad sex with you because she finds you attractive and is enjoying it just as much as you are, not to return some favor.)

    Even if one had decided that he needed to drop some Beta from his routine, though, I sort of think that this isn't the best thing to drop. It takes so little effort; I would tend to think that someone with such an overabundance of Beta that he could stand to lose some could find some other Beta thing he's doing that really is a major inconvenience for him that he could drop first.

  28. Trimegistus says:

    On the other hand, if she’s wearing a tight white top, a little rain never hurts.

  29. Good tip. I never thought to do this in accordance with the weather. I’ve also never did it the alpha way before either, i.e. “You. Out. Leave the panties” (cue grin). That being said, I’m certain it wasn’t beta/creating comfort either.

    Athol – I’d like to see a post on this “omega male” you mentioned when you started this blog. Maybe a “do NOT attempt” list. Also, might be a good refresher course for anyone unfamiliar with the prospect of alpha/beta not being polar opposites.

  30. FeralFelis says:

    We were in the middle of a drought last year, but the man I dated always opened the car door for me and then I would lean across to open his for him. Both of us would say, “Thank you.”
    Sometimes I asked him to “pay a toll” and give me a kiss at the car door before I would get in. And then I would “give him change” with another kiss and a crotch grope when he got behind the wheel.

    Courtesy, fun, appreciation, and a tease all rolled into one little exchange; I loved it!

  31. My dad does this for my mom, especially when she’s got the grandkids. My son has taken to staying with grandpa because “The men are dropping off the girls and going to park the car.” He also takes my moms car every weekend and fills it with gas and gets the maintenance done on it when it needs it.

    My husband, on the other hand, laughed at me when I asked him to drop me off when I was too pregnant to drive myself and it was raining buckets outside. He made a point of parking as far away from the door as possible and told me to “Run, Forrest, Run!” He borrows my car without asking, leaving me stranded more often then not, and leaves it on empty. Our son doesn’t really like to spend much time with him. I’m thinking there’s a correlation.

  32. That’s just sweet. It’s the little things like this that brighten my day.

  33. holdingallthecards says:

    @Kort: Was he like that when you guys were just dating, and you “settled” for an inconsiderate mate? Or is this new behavior? Once a man treats you like a lady, you’re never going to go back to dating jerks. The bar has been raised.

  34. I'm a man says:

    @Kort – Seems the wrong spouse is reading the MMSL. Time to start doing the MAP or FAP and start pulling some male attention.

  35. @holdingallthecards Not like that when we were dating. Is the last 5 years recent? The sex started to go down when I was pregnant with our son about 8 years ago.

    @I’m a Man Oh, trust me, I’ve started running the FAP. New job, working out and changing how I eat (lost 25lbs so far), learning to cook better, growing my hair out and hanging out with the girls at least once a week. It’s my writing group but it’s the first time I’ve made an effort to pursue my writing in 7 years. I’ve actually published a few short stories, mostly to learn a new skill set :-)

    I’ve told him about MMSL, just to say it was an interesting blog he should check out, and he pouted and stomped his feet about me wanting him to do something for our marriage that he didn’t feel like doing. At this point, when I hit the place where I can support myself and the kids financially, if he doesn’t catch on real damn quick, I’m out.

  36. Draggin says:


    Right now, you are looking a lot like one of those women who is going to bail because she is unhaaaaappy. Check out your mission statement “At this point, when I hit the place where I can support myself and the kids financially, if he doesn’t catch on real damn quick, I’m out.” Not really a good plaque to have up over the First Officer’s chair. If you were truly serious about fixing your marriage and having your kids grow up in a fulfilling full-time relationship with BOTH parents then it would read more like “I am committed to doing whatever I can to save this marriage, including setting clear objectives and boundaries in conjunction with my husband”. By in conjunction I mean with full disclosure and preferably in writing so there is minimal rationalizing afterward by either party.

    If you haven’t had a talk where you said “I am doing this and this for us and I need such and such from you in return or I am going to divorce you”, then your hamster has already got control. Hinting as in “just to say it was an interesting blog he should check out” doesn’t count. Your hamster is trying to tell you that you are giving him every chance, where he may in fact be oblivious. One caveat, such and such has to be reasonable. You are lucky, you have this blog to check your feelings against. I strongly suggest you try it.

    If it ends, you want to be able to know that you did everything you could, or you will have doubts for the rest of your life. It sounds like you have made a start on doing your work, but if he remains clueless why you are doing it, you are just going to be one of those women that left without letting their husband know what they needed from him. From the changes you have had to make, it sounds like you really let things go too. That doesn’t absolve him of his responsibilities, but should help you have empathy enough to give him some time to change back to the guy he was when you were dating. Realize that it could have easily been the other way around and he could have taken the red pill first. How would you wish to be treated in that scenario? I am saying take the high road, for your sake and your kids’. Also, you need to take your kids’ future a lot more seriously. Kids need both parents. You have seen the study that concluded that children of divorce have an average lifespan 5 years shorter, haven’t you?

    The best reason to fix this marriage is your long-term happiness. Your best bet for a relationship is to fix the one you have. One thing that most people won’t tell you is that the odds of you getting another man as good as your husband approach zero. You are now older, have more baggage (kids, emotional issues, locked into a certain city), and the good guys your age that want to be married already are. If you get rid of him, you will be trading down, or running a good chance of being alone for the rest of your life.

  37. @Draggin: Kort’s husband acts like an asshole. If he doesn’t shape up, she should bail. The “plaque” you say she has up over the First Officer’s chair is precisely the same in tone as the one over Captains’ chairs all over the Manosphere. Mocking talk of “unhaaaaaapiness” and hamsters gets incredibly wearying, not because it’s always wrong but because it’s so cheap, predictable, and self-consciously superior. It saps the force of any good advice you may have to give in the same post.

    P.S. You have seen the study that concluded that the force of a study’s conclusions depends on its methodology and consistency of replication, haven’t you? And you do know the difference between correlation and causation?

  38. holdingallthecards says:

    “He borrows my car without asking, leaving me stranded more often then not, and leaves it on empty. Our son doesn’t really like to spend much time with him. I’m thinking there’s a correlation.”

    @Draggin': Even the kid thinks his father is an asshole. Even if she remains single after divorce, at least she’ll have reliable transportation. I see more plusses on the divorce column than in the stay married column in her case. And I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg. Some men (and women) just aren’t good people.

  39. @Draggin We had the talk, several of them, in fact, about 5 years ago when his cousin took a swing at me. Drunk and angry, he came looking for me, called me a bunch of names and put his fist through the wall where my head had been. I ran, called my husband to come home and he did . . . 5 hours later. He thought it was funny that I was freaked out. Th kiddo (just the one at the time) and I moved in with my parents for a while. I was absolutely committed to saving my marriage and he said he was too. Turns out, yeah, not so much. Trust me, I’ve given this a lot of work and I’ve decided to stop beating my head against a brick wall. I’m doing what I can to improve myself and working for the kids at this point. If he decides he still wants to be married, fine, we’ll work on it, but I’m done tying myself in knots.

    And as for having let things go . . . not so much. I had an undiagnosed thyroid condition for 3 years. I’m still working to get rid of all the weight gain. I cut my hair off when some guy kept following me home from the bus stop and telling me he liked it. I started bleeding to death at work after having baby number 2 and lost my job because I was out of sick leave. I worked my ass off and gave up almost all of my hobbies to pay for a master’s degree that he doesn’t use. I used to make a mean lasagna, now I make killer stuffed mushrooms and I’m learning more. Basically, I’ve stopped giving up on myself and I’ve stopped trying to change him. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

  40. RedPillNewb says:


    On the one hand, I’m a child of divorce/remarriages and it sucked. On the other hand, in my car, anybody, man or woman, can get a ride to the door in the rain, and pregnant women get driven to the door even if it’s sunny and 75. If my wife is frightened I will come running–hell, that’s job #1 right there. Your husband’s behavior as described is outlandishly bad, the sort of thing I wouldn’t tolerate in a casual friend, never mind a spouse (and only you know if that’s the whole story or not).

    Is there any possibility of some kind of mental issue, such as depression?

  41. @RPN If it’s a mental issue, his whole family has it. I will admit to reacting badly in the beginning but as I’ve learned to control my reactions and my emotions a bit, I’ve seen more of it. It almost seems like the less emotional I am, the worse his behavior, like he’s trying to provoke a fight. His parents were known for having knife fights in the kitchen, something I didn’t hear about until after our son was born. It’s definitely a family problem but I’m not sure if it’s fixable. I do know that, at the moment, he’s not willing to fix it.

  42. RedPillNewb says:

    I do agree with Draggin that your expectations should be crystal clear–women do that “you should have known!” thing WAY too much, for issues both large and small–but if he’s not willing to stop being a USDA Certified Grade-A asshole, then that’s his fault.

  43. Trust me, expectations have been communicated, there’s even a written list. Along the lines of “I will do A, B, C and I expect X, Y, Z.” He made a list for me, too, which I’ve followed to the letter. Him, not so much. When I say I’ve done everything I can, I really do mean I’ve done everything.

  44. I'm a man says:

    @Kort – sounds like you have great folks. Why wait, lean on them and get out now. What you want in a marriage and what Mr. Kort is capable of giving are two very different things. I know it sounds like a contradiction but Mr. K may benefit from the No More Mr. Nice Guy book/website. Sounds like his parents are F’dup and his pouting is nice guy behavior.

  45. @I’m a man lol, I do have pretty great folks. They adore the grandkids and are keeping them for the summer, both because they want to and the kids pretty much begged. They’re 30 minutes across town so it’s not really that big a deal. However, my mom and I in the same house for longer than a few hours will result in bloodshed. I love my mom and would like to continue doing so, so I can put up with Mr. K for a little while longer while I get my shit together.

  46. Draggin says:


    You have gone above and beyond what I advocated and that is a great testament to your character. I apologize if I missed your back story; I was simply going on what was posted on this thread. I am by no means encouraging you to stay with him any longer based on what you have shared here. I was simply laying out the steps that more people should follow before it becomes too late (like my ex) and so that your personal regret is minimized. I obviously did catch that he was acting like an asshole but I was giving him the benefit of doubt and attributed it to pushback to your actions or his unresolved childhood issues. Looks like it is the latter and he is unwilling to work on it, so you do have your answer.

  47. Draggin says:

    @Kevan at 9:03

    I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. My stance remains that divorcing someone because “he/she acts like an asshole” is the LAST step. You chose them in the first place and for a reason. With that comes responsibility to do your best to make it work. Therefore there is a sequence of steps to work up to delivering the devastation that divorce causes. This applies to men and women. Barring actual abuse, every person deserves a chance and time to show they are working on their behaviour. Too many people get the message that you appear to propose i.e. “He’s an asshole. Divorce him.” paraphrased from “Kort’s husband acts like an asshole. If he doesn’t shape up, she should bail” Because my kids and I bore the fallout of that type of advice to my ex without the other person knowing all the facts, I try to make sure that other people are clear on how to make a proper decision and what the consequences of those decisions are. Yes, many people have the same reaction you did, but some of them learn.

  48. Texas Lady says:

    I am confused here in regards to Kort. I have been reading a lot but still new to this. Why does it seem that if you tell the woman in the relationship to ship up or get out but for Kort; she is told that children need both parents. I don’t disagree both parents are needed, just the responses seem to conflict. I am still new to this perhaps I don’t understand what the heck is going on.

    By the way, someone should make a page for all the acronyms on this site. Half the time I have no clue what is being said.

  49. Draggin says:


    If the confusion comes from Kort being told to try everything including direct communication, I would like to point out that the same directive is applied to men. If Kort had been a man I would have written the same comment, but probably not with the same urgency, because I believe most men that get here already understand what I wrote. Realize that men with children, unlike women, don’t have much incentive to divorce. They don’t need to be told that, yes, fathers are a necessity in a child’s life. The main reason men divorce is to get away from someone truly crazy or completely uncaring about the health of the relationship. On the other hand, women are force fed a multitude of reasons through the media. That needs to be counterbalanced with harsh truths for the sake of the woman when encountered (or in Kort’s case, apparently encountered).

    You may also be inadvertently focussing on the way the advice is being delivered, instead of on the intended outcome of preserving the marriage. Both men and women are being told to use a full arsenal of direct and indirect communication. However, the advice is delivered differently depending on the sex of the recipient. Men have to be taught and pushed into using indirect communication. Women have to be taught and pushed into using direct communication. You may be picking that up and feeling conflict from that.

    Men don’t get pushed on direct communication because men usually try the direct and logical communication FIRST. That doesn’t work, mainly because women respond to action and corresponding emotions, not words. At that point, those men end up here. That is when they are pushed to try the indirect communication styles that work so well with women. As a woman, this may fly under your radar as it is business as usual for you.

    Women, however, are more comfortable with indirect and subtle forms of communication. They try to manipulate situations without any direct actions so they have have plausible deniability and can avoid the appearance of making waves. This apparently works well among women and they try this first in their relationships (pouting, withholding sex, silent treatment and with the guy not even knowing what is wrong half the time). The problem comes when their intended audience is men who have been raised to take words at face value. So women try indirect communication and think it is enough. They typically need to be told that it is actually MORE respectful and more effective to communicate directly with men, including threats of taking action. As a woman, you will certainly pick up on this as it feels unnatural to you.

    Remember, if a message is not getting through, it is the speaker’s fault. They need to tailor their speech to the audience. Society’s message regarding communication has been one-sided until now: Men need to communicate more like women to be heard effectively. that has to change. We have to remind women that they have a responsibility to learn to communicate like men to be heard effectively.

  50. @Draggin I would alter what you said to say “MOST women” do those things or possibly “MANY women” do them. I’m very logical and analytic with my communication, to the point where I am deeply baffled by many of the women I meet in various situations. I usually avoid them. This is why I didn’t take offense to what you said, though others may have on my behalf, and just explained the situation a bit more. Of course, if you’d come off as a woman-hating troll, I would have ignored you and gone on my merry way.

    @Texas Lady Everybody here has a story for WHY they’re here, and many of the men here are distrustful of women and their motivations, or lack of, on some level. The best thing I can advise is to take the advice that addresses you and your situation and ignore the stuff that doesn’t. And ignore the woman-hating trolls. They come out every now and then, though it’s been rarer lately.

  51. pdwalker says:


    Another thing to consider: if crazy is in his family, is that something you want passed onto your children? Think very carefully before having more kids with this man.

  52. Back on the original topic, we just had a huge rainstorm in my area yesterday so I got the chance to put this advice to good use. I live in the godforsaken desert so I don’t get to do this too much; it definitely came as a surprise to her to hear, “Out. I’ll park the car. You. Out. Now.” She’s too proud to admit that she likes getting what she thinks of as “special treatment because I have a vagina,” but chivalry aside, I’d do this even if she straight-up told me not to because it just plain makes practical sense. Why both get soaked when only one has to?

  53. holdingallthecards says:

    @Ben: why did you have to order her out of the car? It’s not chivalry or good manners if you have to do that. Just lean over, give her a kiss, and tell her that her hair is pretty and you wouldn’t want her to re-do it inside. Then you’re the considerate gentleman.

  54. @holdingallthecards:

    It probably sounds harsher in plain text than how I actually said it. (-:

  55. @pdwalker I’ve been fixed. There will be no more children.

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