When Nice Guy Gifts Have Strings Attached

Nice Guys aren’t always as nice as they like to think they are. Being nice is often a calculated strategy to get pussy. The thought process is literally “I’ll do all this nice stuff for her, she’ll have to like me because I’m really nice and that’s what women want and react positively to, plus she’ll be socially obligated to be nice back to me because I was nice to her, so she’ll have to drop her pants for me, because that would be her being nice to me.”

Because that entire thought process is in his head and unstated, it’s what Dr. Robert Glover calls a covert contract. The Nice Guy is in fact running a form of Game on his target… it’s just a really ineffective variant of Game. But make no mistake, he’s after the same thing as an “asshole player type” is after.

So, if you pile on Beta support with the intention of her honoring an covert contract that she’s going to burst open like a pinata of sexual favors, you’ll probably be badly disappointed. If you didn’t explicitly make clear and come to a mutual agreement that if you’ll do X, she’ll do Y… she doesn’t have to do Y. In fact she may have no interest or intention of ever doing Y. If you get angry about being taken advantage because you did X and she never paid you back with Y of it’s understandable why you may dislike her actions, but you’re also a big part of why what happened went down.

Oh WTF!?!?!?  She just did Y with someone else she met at a bar two night ago. She told me she didn’t do Y with anyone unless she was in a long term relationship! Nnnnngggghhhaargh!!!

Anyway… a song. The passive-aggressive chumping is painfully dead on.

And yes of course she’s taking advantage of him because she’s aware of the covert contract in his head. He’d chew her out for that, but he still thinks that he has a chance.

Comments

  1. I hate Nice Guys. In fact, no man should ever refer to himself that way, because the entire phrase has been poisoned by manipulative assholes. This might be one of the best – and certainly the shortest – statements on how creepy they are, and why.

  2. betatester says:

    I recall my first year in college. It was quite a distance from my hometown and it so happened my high school class homecoming queen was also there. I had a car, she did not. She had a reputation for leading guys around on a string. I fell victim to this a few times and realized: I have absolutely NO chance with this girl. The first time she started hitting me up for rides to and fro, the answer was “no”. I wish I could adequately describe the look on her face when I explained “because I have better things to do”. Too bad I did not continue taking the red pills. Honestly interested women will ask to do a mutual recreational activity or an exchange like she makes you lunch if you unclog her sink.

  3. That video is brilliant!

  4. OffTheCuff says:

    The funny thing is, reverse the sexes, and it’s suddenly cute… Taylor Swift “You Belong To Me”. Nice guys act too much like women.

  5. This was one of the main points I took away from NMMNG, glad you brought it to your masses. As a recovering nice guy, it’s gotten a lot better to do things nice my wife (back rub, etc.) without expectations. When you state expectations overtly (such as sex), even if they don’t happen for whatever reason, it’s out on the table and you aren’t trying to weasel your way into her pants (very beta). I say treat your wife with respect, tease her sometimes like a kid sister, do some unconditional nice things from time to time (not all the time) but gifting or wining/dining a spouse to try and get a lay is lame and they see right through that.

  6. @AverageMarriedGuy:

    You have the right idea. There are few things more annoying than the expectation that every flirtation/ass grab/backrub/whatever will result in sex. As you say, it’s desperate and off putting – there’s something Alpha about a guy who can playfully, say, grab your ass without immediate expectations. It shows he’s getting enough sex to be relaxed about it.

    And husbands only doing nice things for her when they want to empty their balls won’t get her hot and bothered. It’s creepy.

  7. alphaguy says:

    The bigger picture thing is what Dr. Glover calls Attachment to Outcome. http://drglover.com/blog/x_post/attachment-to-outcome-00005.html
    I believe it when he says that a covert contract is expecting a particular outcome to happen if I do xyz. This is especially true in an LTR. You cannot expect anyone to respect you if you place attachments to a certain set of behaviors. “If I do the dishes, I’ll get sex tonight” kind of thing. Once a Nice Guy realizes that he is only in this world to please himself (but that doesn’t mean you have to be an asshole about it) then you can break free of the cycle of covert contracts and start Setting the Tone and Taking the Lead as Glover is so fond of saying!

  8. pdwalker says:

    Liz,

    Guys always want to empty their balls.

  9. gardenoflove says:

    I believe our husbands deserve a lot more verbal thank yous and appreciations and noticing what they do on a daily basis. Beta activity can lead to a relief and comfort level that a woman cannot produce on her own. It is also a kind (not just nice) thing to notice and appreciate all that a wife does for her husband.

    That being said, agree with Liz that the nice guy tit for tat approach for sex is downright creepy and if married it can be annoying,frustrating and maddening. If I suspect that a Beta type effort activity means I must,must “reward” (notice the word reward is in parentheses because don’t agree with that concept), with a sexual response it flattens my desire. It also reduces my gratitude for the Beta. Perhaps men won’t understand that though.
    In my past I even had men get angry because I didn’t want to converse with them or go out with them! I was usually quite polite in turning someone down but that isn’t sufficient for some nice guys with a hidden agenda. And don’t get me started on what is expected for a simple dinner date…shudder.

    Husbands that don’t work the Alpha in to their relationship in a positive way only continue and perpetuate this Beta behavior and expectation. It must have worked at some point in their relationship,of course. If you tried to describe Alpha vs Beta to some women they might think Beta-nice, Alpha-mean. The Alpha has to be shown as a plus for them and not just the man. Manly =yummy,can’t help myself I must respond and mean,selfish jerk whether coached in Beta terms =leave me alone.

  10. holdingallthecards says:

    @Athol: LOL video! The basic problem: she was way out of his league, and they both know it. That’s why she treats him like crap. She has the goods and she knows that’s what he wants, so she toys with him.

    The other really big problem going on here is If she’s such a bad person, why is he wasting his time? Is this a conquest thing? He thinks he will be The One that will change her into a caring, unselfish person? These guys need a reality check.

    @Pdwalker: We women all know men have booty on the brain, but there’s no need to be so obvious about it. Being obvious is a turnoff because you’re acting one-dimensional and are not interested in us for all our talents and great qualities. I was flirting with a good-looking 25 year old the other day (I’m 39), and he was fascinated by my take on music, books and the things I’ve accomplished. He kept asking questions and then asked for my number (which I gave a fake one), but it was a supreme high to be seen as a complete, interesting person, and not just a MILF/Cougar. So I have to agree with Liz: if you’re just doing it for ass, you’re with the wrong woman and she’ll pick up on this immediately, turn away from you, and wait for you to catch on and get on the right track.

  11. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    holdingallthecards: You’re dreaming if you think the 25-year-old cared what you thought about music or anything. That’s the EXACT same M.O. I used as a 19-year-old to reel in older women. I personally hated the bullshit folkie leftist Dylan shit they liked. At least I got real phone numbers, so I guess I was a better phony.

  12. In defense of Nice Guys, this what they’ve been taught their entire lives. And on a surface level, it seems to make some sort of logical sense: if you’re nice to other people, they should be nice back, right. And sex is just about the nicest thing there is. Ergo….

    That’s not to say that it’s any less wrong. Just that it’s hard to blame people for getting this terribly wrongheaded notion when there’s such a lack of good positive examples to the contrary. And such a plethora of women who will consciously lead a Nice Guy on, giving him dribs and drabs of affection while knowing that she will never ever reciprocate his feelings the way he wants.

  13. FlyingDutchman says:

    Remember most women actually say they want a “nice” guy, but they respond to the alpha frame which is pretty much the opposite. The main problem with the “nice” guy is that he comes across as needy and this is a major turn off. Its such a fine line, because if he just shifts his frame to being overtly and sexually interested in her, instead of passively wishing she would be sexually interested in him, and does this with confidence that he doesn’t care if she responds or not, she probably will respond. Even to this same creepy guy as long as he has the right confidence and frame. Women are so easy when you have the right frame and so mind-numbingly confusing when you have the wrong frame.

  14. FlyingDutchman “Women are so easy when you have the right frame and so mind-numbingly confusing when you have the wrong frame.”
    I’m putting that on my wall!

  15. MILF in Training says:

    For me, the issue isn’t so much the transaction “I do this, so you bang me” but the covert part. The “Why didn’t you lay me like tile, after all I washed the dishes?” whine, when he never said anything in the open.

    My ex was the poster Nice uy this way … I had no clue he was doing things for sex until he got mad at me for not noticing.

    There’s nothing wrong with bargaining for sex, if he’s definitely Alpha, there’s some humor involved, and the couple is getting enough sex anyway. “I’ll do all the dishes tonight, you give me a Supersized BJ with hot sauce,” would be fun.

  16. Over It says:

    If your wife is attracted to you and appreciates you, she’ll want to put out. Don’t be one of those guys who pushes the same button over and over and over until the spring falls out and it stops working. (Think of those push-button start grills. Those things always die eventually).

    @Holdingallthecards: First you brag about your mad money vacation account, then about how you attract younger men so easily? Maybe you should start your own blog about how to be the most awesome, perfect woman in the world!

  17. @FlyingDutchman:

    And half those women who claim to want nice guys actually believe it, because they’ve been taught all THEIR lives that it’s what they SHOULD want. And then they feel confused and guilty when some guy who seems perfectly kind and generous and wonderful somehow fails to push any of her buttons: what kind of monster is she that she can’t respond to that?

    What can I say, the Blue Pill is shit all around.

  18. holdingallthecards says:

    @Days of Broken Arrows: He’s a drummer in a jazz band, so yes, discussing music and artists was interesting for both of us.

    @Over it: Bizarre that you should be jealous of me, considering that my marriage is crap because I married someone who doesn’t like being a parent, and I haven’t been properly fucked in years. Just like Athol suggests, I have been taking care of myself physically and financially so that I can hit the ground running (Girl Game). The FAP may not be working magic on my husband, but it would be nice if you could chill out and recognize that Athol’s plan works to attract men in general.

  19. @holdingallthecards

    Are you planning on working up to an ultimatum if your husband doesn’t improve? Just wondering.

    BTW, I had an interesting experience the other day with a 23 or 24 year old delivery man. I couldn’t swear to it, but it seemed like he was actually trying to look down my shirt. It’s possible to still attract younger men when you’re in your 30’s if you take care of yourself. Typically, they just want sex though, not a relationship.

    I’ve noticed a lot of divorced women in their 30’s, especially late 30’s, and 40’s who end up getting remarried get men who are a step or two down from their ex-husband. The exception would be if there is something really bad about him, like he’s abusive, or addicted to drugs and/or alcohol, or wants a sexless marriage. A decently attractive woman, even if she’s not in her prime, can probably get someone better than that.

  20. I should mention that I was NOT trying to flirt with the delivery man, and I was NOT trying to get sex from him. Just in case anyone was wondering. I was friendly though. Maybe he mistook that for sexual interest.

  21. Nah, boobs are boobs. If someone has a nice rack, I’m going to notice. Doesn’t mean I’m fantasizing about having sex with them.

  22. @Rico

    Well, I don’t know if he was thinking sex or just looking. In general though, if a younger guy is interested in an older woman for more than just looking, he’s only interested in sex. So if a younger guy is flirting with me, I don’t assume that I can get someone his age to want to marry me if I divorced my husband. Which I’m not going to do anyway.

    The point is that holdingallthecards’s 25 year old guy she gave an incorrect phone number to probably wouldn’t be interested in marriage or an LTR. If she leaves her sexless marriage, and no one would blame her if she did, she’s more likely to be able to get another husband a little older than her, not much younger. If I were in the situation to be looking for a husband in my 30’s, I’d look for someone up to 10, maybe even 15, years older than me. That would greatly increase the chances of success.

  23. I'm a man says:

    @Linanati – you’re thinking too much about it…men look at all boobs. If you are wearing a low cut top we take that as an invitation to look. that’s what you wanted right?
    @holdingallthecards – you proved the point perfectly, the nice guy wasted his time and got a fake number. He didn’t even figure out you were married…worse you didn’t have the guts to tell him and not give a fake number. Whats wrong with saying your married? How about being honest with people? Seems you had a convert contract with this stranger. Now the guy is left feeling like a dick, maybe if he meets 10 more like you he’ll start getting angry. Grow up.
    @Liz “empty their balls” +1

  24. @I’m a man

    I’m thinking the same, but about you guys. You’re thinking too much about my comment. It’s pretty typical for a woman to relate an experience, then another woman to say, “Yeah, I had something like that happen to me too.” The two then go on to discuss it. Sharing a somewhat similar experience also softens it if the second woman is going to disagree with part of what the first woman said, or what the second woman thought the first woman may have been thinking or implying…

    The important thing isn’t whether or not the delivery man wanted sex or just enjoyed trying to sneak a peak at breasts. The point I was trying to communicate (after sharing a somewhat similar recent experience to soften it) was that even if a younger man actually is trying to get an older woman in bed, it’s usually just that. He isn’t wanting to marry the older woman. Interest from younger guys isn’t an accurate indicator of her value in the marriage market.

    This is all woman speak, OK? It doesn’t work if you try to hear the conversation in the same way as if you were talking to one of your buddies.

  25. @holdingallthecards
    I’m really sorry about your marriage situation.
    But seriously, giving a guy (whose company you enjoyed) a fake number is so mean.
    Couldn’t you just have said something like, “I’m not really available right now. But talking to you these past few minutes made me wish I was. Have a great night.”
    Then you could have both left the scene feeling good.

  26. pdwalker says:

    @Shanna +1

  27. Thunder says:

    Dr Glover was way ahead of his time when he wrote NMMNG. He was my original red pill and a huge influence on my growth and getting my balls back.

    I highly recommend it to everyone.

  28. Draggin says:

    @Linnati: Your original point that “Typically, they just want sex though, not a relationship.” was right.

    However, I’m a man also got it right by taking it to the next step. The young guy could have been attracted to your boobs. That does not mean he was attracted to you. You missed that, possibly because you went on the defensive, or possibly because you dismissed it out of hand because it didn’t fit what you already believed. However, we are here to figure out the truth of the Sexual Market Place and Marriage Market Place. If you post comments, we will think about them and, if we feel it necessary, set you straight for the benefit of the following commenters and readers.

    “Sharing a somewhat similar experience also softens it if the second woman is going to disagree with part of what the first woman said, or what the second woman thought the first woman may have been thinking or implying”. Isn’t this the slippery slope to herd thinking? I understand how much energy your statement would require all day long to implement it. I tried to visualize it but stopped when I approached the edge of madness.

    Maybe this is why women can never seem to be truly happy long term? If women have to expend so much energy using women speak and sometimes worrying about imagining that someone else may or not be happy or unhappy, they are always having to understand or visualize that they may be making someone unhappy and constantly create workarounds to that. As we know, that’s not a good frame to hold.

    “This is all woman speak, OK? It doesn’t work if you try to hear the conversation in the same way as if you were talking to one of your buddies.”

    This is a veiled attempt at shutting down the debate by saying “I wasn’t talking to you” or “You don’t get it so you can’t comment on it” and therefore “I win”. I’m a man was still right in what he said and you haven’t directly addressed that by saying why you think he’s wrong.

    As a tip, do not use “women speak” when you are talking to men or mixed groups. There are men reading your comments. Don’t expect us to interpret what you are trying to say and then get upset when we don’t interpret it the way you want us too. If the audience doesn’t get the message that the speaker is giving, it’s not because it’s a shitty audience….

    We are here to undo our blue pill thinking and learn by reading the posts and hashing it out in the comments. When the blue pill/mainstream media/feminist mindset gets posted, it will get pulled apart for the benefit of others so they have a chance to learn too.

  29. pdwalker says:

    Thunder: Dr Glover? NMMNG?

  30. Thunder says:

    No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover

  31. gardenoflove says:

    There is nothing wrong with wanting a nice guy who can do the Beta things that any woman can appreciate and should thank her man for. Being a nice guy doesn’t mean a woman will take advantage of you or a woman is being hypocritical for wanting Beta and Alpha.
    Athol seems to be emphasizing that men need to learn Alpha and Beta traits. Maybe men are taught more Beta behavior than Alpha but isn’t that something that is definable and can be changed? If a man does not equate Beta behavior to being the unwilling supplicant to a woman’s whims than he’ll not mind being the intriguing Beta/Alpha mix.
    Women can run a home,raise children and be a willing participant in the bedroom . If we are to learn to do all the womanly arts and to enjoy them it seems ok for men to learn the manly arts,so to speak, inside and outside of the bedroom. I love men who have a host of Beta skills and gentlemanly conduct but have the additional Alpha side that shows itself.

  32. @Draggin

    “As a tip, do not use “women speak” when you are talking to men or mixed groups. There are men reading your comments.”

    In other words, you are saying I should talk like a man when I’m in mixed groups. Why would I do that? Do you talk like a woman when you are in mixed groups? There are women reading your comments here. Your comment was man speak all the way. But that’s OK, because you’re a man. In mixed groups, sometimes things will get lost in translation. Sometimes it’s necessary to explain a little more to get the point across. That’s not bad or evil. That’s just how it is. Men and women communicate differently. Women don’t suddenly turn into men when they’re talking to men.

    I’m not sure where you got that I was trying to prove ‘I’m a man’ wrong? I’m not saying the delivery man wanted sex; I don’t know if he did or not. It’s immaterial anyway. My reply to ‘I’m a man’ was simply explaining what I was trying to communicate in my original comment.

    My point in my original comment was that younger men don’t usually want a relationship with older women. If they do want anything, it’s usually just sex. So holdingallthecards can’t look at a 25 year old guy asking for her phone number as an indicator of her prospects for remarriage if she decides to divorce her husband.

    How exactly is that message blue pill? Blue pill would be telling her, “Oh yeah, you can get a much hotter, younger guy than that loser you’re married to. You ought to divorce him, girl!” Notice I never said that.

  33. I'm a man says:

    @Linanati – wow.

    @gardenoflove – Good point but i think we were speaking of “nice guy” in the context of the book No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover. Don’t confuse it with beta behaviour. …it was a very important book for me and now i make the distinction of me being a “kind” person but not a “nice guy”. In women speak (wink to Linanati) a nice guy is a people pleaser.

  34. @Holdingallthecards

    Yes, I’m here because I have a lousy marriage too. I’d guess most of us are here for that reason (in one way or another).

    Please don’t flatter yourself; I didn’t say I was jealous. My point was simply that you make it sound as if you have lots of this figured out. If you have the knowledge (like Athol does), then you should share it with the rest of us. Who wouldn’t like more money, looking hotter, a better relationship, etc? Spread the love around.

  35. holdingallthecards says:

    @Linanati: Thank you for understanding what I was trying to point out about Athol’s plan: you do self-improvement, men will be attracted to you. The 25 yr old was just a fun self-esteem boost, and many of the husbands here have noticed the exact same thing happening when they run the MAP.

    I have no intention of considering a second marriage unless a truly remarkable man comes my way. I doubt my current husband cares about men hitting on me. For all I know, he’s having an affair. I have long since stopped caring. The kids barely talk with him because even they have picked up on his intentional lack of interest in their lives. The best I can hope for is that he will connect with them on a friend basis once they are legally adults.

    Once I move out, I just want to date and have fun and get crazy laid until I can’t think or walk straight. Flirting is just practicing before going live in June 2013.

  36. oregonziggy says:

    Not a huge fan of people who use the term “out of their league” Especially when it is tied only to looks. In the end that means nothing. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone say they ended a relationship due to being better looking that the other person.
    I think the video represents more than just “guy going after hot woman” and more about what most women in this country think they are and how they act. I know women way less attractive than the woman in the video that act the same way.

  37. @holdingallthecards

    If it’s not too personal, why are you waiting until June 2013? It’s sounds like your marriage is pretty much over. I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone, male or female, in a sexless marriage. I think if your husband won’t have sex with you, but you need to stay for a certain time period to get finances worked out or whatever, you might want to talk to him and tell him you consider the fact that he is refusing to meet your sexual needs as an invitation to have an open marriage.

    Typically, I’d say an open marriage is a bad idea (I’m kinda old-fashioned that way), but it can’t be worse than a sexless marriage. And frankly, if you have a normal sex drive, 06-13 is a long time to wait.

  38. He’s a drummer in a jazz band, so yes, discussing music and artists was interesting for both of us.

    Hahahahahahaha!!!!! Thanks, I needed a laugh.

    Once I move out, I just want to date and have fun and get crazy laid until I can’t think or walk straight.

    Then you’ll get cats. Enjoy it while it lasts! Between these two quotations, I’ve seen how women like you generally end up; a laughingstock and an embarrassment to your grown children. Grow up indeed.

  39. oregonziggy says:

    I don’t know I say more power to her. I am loving all these women in their late 30’s or early 40’s getting divorced and acting like sluts.

  40. To be fair there are several of the male readers that are flying “in a holding pattern over Chicago” just waiting for an external marker to happen before filing for divorce in similar situations to Holdingallthecards.

    Without knowing further details though, my default hope would be that she gives him a fair warning that he truly hears instead of simply the paperwork.

  41. True to what the gals are saying, I’ve found my seductive process is most effective when I expressly avoid any impression that I think she should have sex with me or even that sex is going to happen at all. As the man I have to continually test to push to the next level of escalation, but I never let her get the idea I’m disappointed it didn’t go all the way.

    Even though I’m single I learned most of this attitude from MMSL.

    In particular, I’ve leveraged the “making out or back rubs doesn’t mean I expect to escalate to sex.” That way we can both enjoy low-level sexual behavior without feeling committed to a romp the moment we smooch.

    I think this “I’ll rub your back and then go back to reading my book” is so alluring in part because it reflects an indifference attitude, causing the woman to qualify herself back to him to get more of the validation that his sexual advances provide. It’s a sexual takeaway, classic game praxis.

  42. pdwalker says:

    No matter how many times I hear it, experience it, it still makes me shake my head at the seeming stupidity of it all.

    If ever I needed proof of God’s sense of humour, I’d need to look no farther.

  43. holdingallthecards says:

    @Athol & Linanati: I am waiting until the twins graduate from HS in June 2013. Moving out today would cause unneccessary instability in their living situation, plus shuffling back and forth. One is going away to college, the other is going away to culinary school. Since they’re both leaving, that’ll be the least disruptive time to file for divorce.

    And I’m sure there are a million husbands waiting for that convenient exit, too.

    Athol: I will sit down and discuss everything with him, but it’s mostly because I’d rather divvy everything up without bringing in the lawyers until the last second. I’m not asking for alimony, and he can keep the house, but I’d like for him to pay for the twins’ educations. Too much water under the bridge to resusitate the marriage. I think he’d be better off with a woman with no children.

  44. Just wanted to hop back in here and say that I finally took the recommendation of @Thunder and too many others to count around the comments section and forum and checked Dr. Glover’s “No More Mr. Nice Guy” out from the library.

    This book should be required reading for anyone who reads MMSL and follows the MAP. I don’t fit the profile perfectly– I was lucky enough to have a few formative experiences and good role models around high school that helped me unlearn some of the typical Nice Guy patterns, and MMSL/MAP have helped me even more– but it’s still enormously insightful in helping me learn why I fell into those patterns in the first place and why they were so difficult to unlearn. And there’s too much about it that still applies directly to me– few positive male role models as a child, check, want to be the opposite of my father, check, constantly seeking female approval, check, avoids arguments, check– for me to say “well, lucky thing I grew out of that,” and dismiss it. I’ve still got a long way to go.

    Seriously, read the book. It’s an amazing complement to the MMSL Primer in that it attacks many of the same problems from a very different direction. It might not all apply to you, but if even a little of it does, it’ll be more than worth the ten to fifteen bucks a copy will cost you.

  45. flirtyintrovert says:

    “If you didn’t explicitly make clear and come to a mutual agreement that if you’ll do X, she’ll do Y… she doesn’t have to do Y. In fact she may have no interest or intention of ever doing Y. If you get angry about being taken advantage because you did X and she never paid you back with Y of it’s understandable why you may dislike her actions, but you’re also a big part of why what happened went down.”

    So true… the female form of this insanity is the woman who wails that some guy she’s been sleeping with for 6 months or living with for 7 years “won’t commit” to her. In her mind she is giving him sex and loyalty, and he should reward her with a ring. He, of course, is already happy with the status quo.

  46. I think a bit of perspective is in order for this discussion…I understand why this is annoying for women, but I think it’s important to understand that this servile “do X and get sex” equation is what men are taught from youth.

    When boys and young men ask what women want, they get a bunch of “be nice” advice like call her, take her nice places, be emotionally open, and a bunch of don’t about what women “hate” from the men they are dating, like not calling, not paying, not being concerned about her orgasm, etc.

    Go Google something like “how to get your wife to have sex with you.” You’ll get a bunch of blue-pill results along the lines of get her flowers, do the dishes, play with the kids more, plan out date nights. Guys try it and find the wives aren’t any more horny.

    MMSL is a distinct minority in the advice world. Guys who are looking for answers are washed in bad advice that posits a “women get tingly when guys do X/Y/Z.”

    I hope this goes somewhere towards explaining why guys get so pissed off about this particular topic. Most guys aren’t intrinsically manipulative (men tend to be pretty on the up and up, we see secret obligation exchanges as a chick thing), just most of them have been taught that women will reward them for certain behaviors that, it turns out, aren’t all that relevant. The men get resentful because they feel they aren’t getting their side of the bargain, the women recoil that they’re under some kind of obligation they didn’t agree to (despite the fact that marriage entails sexual relationship) and all is unhappy.

    One other factor: one of the great truths of the game world is that women are, as a general statement, not very aware of what turns them on, and often are not as happy as they thought they’d be with various behaviors they SAY they want from men. The upshot of this is that even if there was a tried and true “do X and get sex” sort of equation, women by and large wouldn’t be able to articulate it to their men.

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