How Walkaway Wives Run a Dirty MAP

This post is going to feel like a sucker punch to some of the guys reading. Please believe me when I say I’m not trying to pin all the blame on you for her leaving or cheating on you. I’m trying to explain the dynamics at work so you can correct them. Yes indeed she did bad things and doesn’t have an excuse for it, but the hard, hard, hard truth is that unless you married a genuine Batshit Crazy woman, you have always been responsible to be the leader of your marriage. Some part of the problem was yours to fix and manage. If you think the Titanic sunk because some bitch put icebergs in the way, you need to take it up with the Captain.

Okay… now that I’ve warmed everybody up to taking this particular dose of the Red Pill rectally, let’s begin…

One of the things Betaized men don’t understand is how they help create the situation where their wife just walks away from the marriage. It’s fairly rare that a wife is just going to wake up one morning and decide she’s going to act like The Joker found the Batcave and blow it all up. It builds and builds and builds and then she makes her move. The bad news for the Betaized husband is that a lot of the effort put into that building, has come from him.

Constant deference and catering to a wife frames her as having a higher Sex Rank than you. It doesn’t matter what she looks like, or what her options truly are outside the relationship, if you bow and scrape and bring mistress pretty things, you’re framing her as being in charge and having a higher Sex Rank than you. Constantly failing Fitness Tests makes her think she has a higher Sex Rank than you. Her cutting sex down to the rate of an IV drip and you sticking around and tolerating it, makes her think she has a higher Sex Rank than you. If she sits at home in a fifthy house trolling Facebook all day while you bring home the bacon and take her on expensive vacations, you’re framing her as having a higher Sex Rank than you. It’s like you’re purposely propelling her to Phase Three of the MAP without her needing to do anything. Just looking at her in a gooey-eyed Oneitis haze lets her know she’s in the drivers seat.

She could objectively be a 6 and you objectively an 8, but if you keep acting like her minion, she thinks she’s the 8 tolerating having made a terrible choice for settling for a 6. Seeing you’ve lifted her up to her own Phase Three of the MAP, she can push to a Phase Four at will. Except that you’re rarely going to get an obvious Phase Four demand moment, because that’s something we do consciously in running the MAP seeking the moral high ground. Oh there may be a tepid demand for something, a “maybe counseling”, a total ending of sex or something, but far more likely she’s just going to quietly slip into Phase Five.

When the lines of communication are broken between you and your wife, you aren’t going to get a message that the lines of communication are broken. That’s what the lines of communication being broken means. When she checks out of the marriage, she doesn’t tell you because she checked out of the marriage. That’s what being checked out of the marriage means. You might think it’s all going great, but that’s probably how a pet cow called “Hamburger” thinks too. Don’t get too excited about seeing Christmas.

Once in Phase Five… she starts checking out of the marriage and getting her ducks in a row for an exit. Again in the actual MAP, I’m advising taking the moral high ground and not getting involved with someone else. Doing that just complicates things needlessly and makes a second problem to address. However in the walkaway wife / dirty MAP, invariably she will get involved with someone else during Phase Five. In fact getting involved with another man likely marks the jump from Phase Three into the limbo of Phase Five.

Then it goes one of two ways.

The first way is that on one perfectly normal Tuesday morning, she just leaves you and someone serves you the divorce paperwork. You’re totally stunned of course. She just walked away for no reason whatsoever. Chances of getting her back – slim to none. And that’s a slim slim.

The other way is that before she does that, you catch her cheating. If you catch her, you have about a three day window to make a fairly complete reversal of fortune where you read her the riot act, stop catering to her, establish clear relationship boundaries and cut off the relationship with the other man. This is of course a huge task to do, and only possible with Sith-like focused anger. I’m not saying be violent, I’m saying if you aren’t acting as “in control but livid”, you’re doing it wrong. And trust me, you’ll have anger to spare. If in doubt, kick her out. You can always change your mind later, and if nothing else, you’re gaining some respect points in her eyes for doing so.

Even then, it’s still a long road back to what your marriage should be, and her actually cheating on you vastly changes things beyond her merely being bored and discontent. It’s pretty much the ultimate Fitness Test topped only by getting pregnant to another guy. I’m always hopeful that a couple can bounce back from an affair, but the odds aren’t wonderful. It’s going to be a major revision of how you live together. I must admit to becoming somewhat less hopeful on this front the longer I’ve written MMSL.

Whether she stays or goes though, getting your crap together and figuring out how to stand taller is always going to be in your best interest. And I know it’s extremely hard to hear that you played a role in setting the scene for her leaving or cheating on you. I’m really not trying to kick you when you’re down, I’m trying to show you what you must change in order to have a hope at correcting things with her… or failing that the next woman in your life.

Not forgetting of course, you can always just say “thanks for playing” and call it a day.

Comments

  1. Or maybe you just happened to hook up with a BPD chick who couldn’t keep it under wraps anymore.

    My wife of 22 years (and mother of our 9 yo son) came clean on her year-plus-long affair recently. Within a month I had filed for divorce, and within two months was pounding a hot woman 13 years my junior. (My ex’s demand of “You should send me flowers; get on your knees and ask me forgiveness” still makes me smile and laugh when I think about it.)

    Her spreading her legs for another man was the best thing that ever happened to me. I can’t say that for my son yet, but I am trying to mitigate her destructive influence on his life.

  2. A.B. Dada says:

    My ex was batshit crazy, BPD and all of that.

    And, still, to this day, my desire to fix her things combined with gifts and oneitis caved it all in. I firmly blame myself.

    I tell most guys who come for advice that they are causing the deception, the sex life failures, the domestic irresponsibility, etc.

    A guy can toss a gal when his desire for her drops even slightly. A woman will let her desire drop significantly before she finally tosses the guy.

    Great post.

  3. Highlander says:

    We talk an awful lot about the Alpha & Beta around here, MAP, and what one has to do to keep “Momma Happy” , but sometimes one should just either let them go or kick them out before spending years putting up with their crap. Having been through this last year after being married for 22 years and together for 24, I can agree there is a lot of truth in what you say. But when it all boils down to brass tacks, you’re better off without a woman that requires a constant game of physiological warfare to keep and statistically stands a good chance she’ll pull this shit anyway regardless of what you do when she hits her 40’s.

    In the past year trying to make sense of it all I’ll bet I’ve read every relationship book written in the last ten years, read thousands of posts on menopause/midlife/divorce and cheater forums . This forum is the best one I’ve run across, because it does give you a plan and also deal with making final decisions if nothing you do works, there is no false hope here most marriage forums push to sell products to desperate people.

    What I’ve found, particularly in the woman’s forums is it does not seem to matter what a lot of women have, it’s never enough, there’s that constant little voice saying “There’s something missing, is this all there is ? ” This hypergamy is always there, like hyena’s waiting for the lion to get sick before they’ll attack it in a weak moment. I think Chris Rock has it right when he say’s ” And you know the number one reason your wife is pissed at you? Because you ain’t her first choice…” When he say’s this on stages there is a momentary silence in the audience that is very telling, then the look of “Yep, we’ve been caught” look on the faces of the women ;~)

  4. A.B. Dada says:

    3ld: nah, she chased me when I was much higher status. I voluntarily failed her fitness tests and lowered my status over a period of 2 years.

    Good job leaving her.

    Highlander: my sexual market value is always proven in front of the women I’ve dated and date. I’m friendly with both guys and gals I meet randomly, and regularly get asked if I’m single (even in front of a woman I’m with!).

    Still, I find that urban women have the most hypergamous strength as well as the most available choice (other guys, jobs, shopping, etc) versus rural dames. If I didn’t have the strength to date top notch US women, I’d happily just date South Americans or Europeans who still have feminine natures locked in from being raised.

    Maybe it is a full time job, but since I’m not shy about my ability to replace someone failing me, I seem to get fitness tested much less than when I was in my 20s. I also don’t date urban women ever.

  5. It still amazes me how men are more afraid of loneliness than standing up to a women.

    I’d rather make my mistakes quickly…that way I don’t invest in a crazy psycho who doesn’t even like me. The good news is I learned how to test women (because we all know women have their tests but most men don’t know how test them). My tests on women have never failed me on where I stand with them.

  6. Athol

    Great post. As a woman, I completely agree with what you’re saying here.

    I would like you to clarify something though. If a woman of equal sex rank to her husband is subservient to him, gives him everything he wants without asking for much in return, does she run the risk of being perceived as a lower sex rank, and could this behavior lead to the man having an affair?

    Do women also need to be careful not to have oneitis for their husbands too?

  7. This entry is dead on.

    I’ve said before that when examining my own failed marriage I had to look in the mirror one day and point the middle finger at myself for my own shortcomings. That doesn’t excuse her behavior, nor does it mean I forgive it, but I had a hand in everything that went on from poorly performing wife selection up through the typical dumb pre-red pill behavior described in many posts concerning my part during the marriage. You can blame the blue pill media and culture for that a bit, but once you red pill, you don’t have any more excuses.

    If you’ve had a really bad experience, at some point, once you get past the anger and butt-hurt, it really is a great service to yourself to as rationally as possible examine where you made bad decisions and figure out what drove you to do that.

    Some of us pick ‘bad’ people to get with because of something going on in ourselves we don’t like. Maybe we were raised in a low conflict households and had no clue how to deal with a combative spouse, who when we first met them they seemed to us “fiery” and exciting. Etc. It could be a hundred little permutations depending on your on background and psychological and emotional make up.

    The important thing is that you do the self examination to find your motivations, uncover your mistakes and to take responsibility for them, and above all else, take action to correct them or think through how you can avoid the same thing in the future.

    If you don’t do this I think there is a very strong possibility that you will just recreate the same situation over and over again with the existing woman or you will seek out the same kind of woman and do it all over again. Like there is something drawing you to put yourself in the same situation again, and again, but this time you’re going to “get it right.” Same you, same behavior, same kind of woman but this time it will all turn out different huh? Fat chance buddy.

    How about a fundamental change of strategy from the start and make a better and healthier pick from the beginning? Starting with the kind of woman you are drawn to. Maybe the kind of woman you are drawn to is very bad for you. Figure out what the draw is, and take corrective action to fix that issue in yourself and go a new direction.

    It will feel really weird to you at first. Let me give an example. I dated and married women that really took me on roller coasters of highs and lows. One day I love you, the next I’m the worst scum of the Earth, with me working double overtime to “make this right” and finally win her over. But there was no way of winning, because for reasons I discovered, I sought out women like this, in which there would be no winning and just the constant up/down battle.

    So when I dated women who did not act like this it seemed very boring to me. It felt weird to not be treated like that. Like there was something wrong. But there wasn’t anything wrong, except with me. I was so keyed in on having high drama when it concerned women, that when I was with a woman that did not do that stuff I thought there was something wrong with her, or that she was boring or whatever. It took a while for it to dawn on me that “Hey, this is just a pretty chill chick.” I was in drama withdrawal. Lolz.

    You know, we deride women who keep picking the “bad boys” and we give them shit for it and call them out and make fun of them. Yet we men do something similar in picking project women, damaged women or high conflict women to white knight for or involve ourselves with. Aren’t we doing just as dumb a thing when we do that? Yes we are.

    I think one of the biggest benefits of red pill immersion is gaining knowledge about what types of women to avoid and how to spot red flags so that you don’t recreate the same drama for yourself.

    It’s hard to make a great cake if you start off with using rotten eggs and spoiled milk. You owe it to yourself to start with the best ingredients both from your side of the equation and hers. You’re like Chef Ramsey and you won’t accept sub-par ingredients or sub-par behavior from the staff. Lolz.

    That’s where I’m heading on my own little merry path. Figure out why I chose to get with the kind of woman I did (and she wasn’t the first of her type looking back at GF history prior to marriage) and poking around inside to figure out what the draw is for me. Why do I do that? What’s my payoff for putting myself in those situations? I’ve figured it out for myself. If you can find and fix that, you’re so much further along on your way to being able to make better choices.

  8. Changed Man says:

    @ZLX1

    Spot on, as usual, Dude.

    I could be the poster child for this post.

    In 1st marriage, I was the typical Alpha @ work and Beta @home guy. After 20 years, she hooked up with an old high school BF via classmates (pre facebook) and left me holding the bag with a butt-load of debt and abandoning our kids. I tried to acknowledge my part in it, read a whole bunch of books, and did a lot of therapy… was clearly the wrong (blue-pill) books and therapy. Fast forward to 2nd marriage, thinking I’m more enlightened, but making the same clueless Beta mistakes, becoming more & more desperate, depressed, and resigned to another impending failed marriage. Enter MMSL… tell 2nd wife I ‘get it’ now and my actions will speak for themselves. 6 months later, I’ve made significant progress in the MAP, we’ve made huge progress in our relationship, my confidence is building, and the future is looking much brighter. Not to say I’ve executed the MAP flawlessly. I’m very much a work in progress… Turns out becoming ‘eye candy’ was easy, but transforming 30+ years of Beta behavior into more Alpha is not so easy, but I keep soldiering on, and learning from my mistakes this time.

    The red-pill was particularly bitter when I recently looked back, with my new-found understanding, at my 30+ years and can individually identify the numerous times that both wives practically begged me (in the indirect ways a blue-pill woman only knows how and a blue-pill man can’t see) to step-up, lead, and be my ‘best version’. Very sobering… the anger, bitterness, and resentment at the bill of goods I was sold was much easier to get past. The shame from ‘failing’ once and almost a 2nd time, not so easy.

  9. This is a very good post. While I agree with it I think there is another perspective that is also important to remember about female responsibility both individually and on a societal level. Individually a woman could have signaled very strongly indirectly what she wanted or she could have asked for it explicitly. Rollos wife was instrumental in making him take the captain role:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/16-years-on/

    You also wrote a previous post where a wife after two decades of hinting finally said that she wanted her husband to be dominant with her upon which he answered “why could`t you have just said so” and proceeded to adjust his behavior according to what she wanted.

    All women could have done what Rollos wife did or what this other wife did but most have not. So while a man bears a responsibility a wife bears a responsibility for not having done this.

    Women play a large role in molding the role the husband takes. The surrendered wife book shows how by creating a vacuum the man steps in and mans up while nagging tends to just do the opposite. Most wives have spent countless hours “communicating” directly with their husbands explicitly asking their husbands to do behave as not-captains, as first officers in stead.

    Each individual woman has also played her part in molding the cultural messages that men have picked up on to step down from the captain role. My guess is every single woman reading this blog has said a bunch of things to men throughout their lives which have led the men in the direction away from a captain role.

    I get that it has been hard in this cultural climate to understand fully what you wanted but you still need to own these things. Some women did get it just like some men did get it. I was fooled but started getting suspicious earlier than many, figured some things out and eventually found game. Some of you also got suspicious, figured some stuff out and eventually found Athol. But some people never got fooled or figured it all out quickly, they knew themselves better, took responsibility for what knowing that entailed and got what they wanted out of relationships. Those of us who did not, man and woman, need to take some responsibility for not doing the same. A large part of the reason some got it right and others did not was that they where more honest with themselves and they where less afraid of what others thought of them. Today I see that on SOME level I always instinctually knew most of this I just chose to not trust it and override it with societal beliefs.

  10. @Tate – the short answer is yes. If she’s catering to him endlessly and allowing herself to be taken advantage of, then she’s framing him as being able to do whatever he wants and she’ll just take it.

    It’s important to see the First Officer role as being supportive, but also demanding a level of respect and appreciation for that support.

  11. @Wudang – I do agree that at any point the wife can say something, but the nature of women is to respond to men rather than seeking to create a response from them. It’s a great thing when they do, but so many don’t that you have to take that into account.

    @ZLX1 – fantasic comments.

  12. Yes Athol I know but after having been around some very feminine Asian women a bit I´ve found their behavior naturally draws out a captain role. What women are will impact immensely on what men choose to become. I recently saw a study about dating that found although the man looked like the active part you could not predict female behavior from male behavior but you could the other way around, meaning that although he seemed to be taking active escalation steps if you looked closely the women had sent indirect signals to the man “requesting” escalation steps every time they actually succeeded. The researchers view was that on appearance the man was the active one in reality it was the woman only she used indirect commands to make him take the steps he did. Relationships have a lot of the same dynamic. The surrendered wife book shows an example of a woman consciously choosing to employ that strategy. My experience with Asian women have showed me that women who naturally and strongly send out signals of wanting to be a first officer and for you to be a captain will be ten times more likely to receive it. This isn`t normally something they think much about it is a natural result of who they are.

  13. I’m the other kind of walkaway woman I guess.

    Practically as soon as we got married my ex husband dropped all pretense of having any beta whatsoever. All I got from him was distance, hostility, and criticism. I could literally do nothing right, from the way I did my hair to the way I loaded the dishwasher. Even the way I walked was somehow wrong and supremely offensive. He also stopped taking care of himself, put on 60lbs, and stopped having sex with me.

    If you’ve ever seen Enemy at the Gates, I constantly felt like that solider in the scene where he has to crawl across a mined warehouse with snipers shooting at him to try to hook up the telegraph wire. Except my team was shooting at me too.

    Trust me, he knew what the problem was, he just ignored them and me until I completely wore out. When I walked away he scrambled to “fix” things, but by then I couldn’t trust him. I’d had too many promises. Lucy had pulled the ball one too many times. When I say I feel for you guys in these relationships, I really really do. I just happened to get similar treatment from a man.

  14. Addendum: The above is not to say I didn’t do anything wrong in the relationship. I’m sure I did, if not only for just picking that particular guy, and putting up with his treatment of me. It’s that nothing I ever tried fixed it or made anything better, so I still don’t have any clear idea of what was wrong from my side. I could never get him to clear up just what is was that he wanted from me either (besides being someone else entirely), so no help there.

  15. Version3.0 says:

    @ZLX1, that’s what I tried (1st wife; 17 yrs) but it didn’t take.

    Nice Guy, pedestaling and too Beta for many years. I made the comment once to a buddy that being a sensitive, pro-fem guy didn’t seem to pay off (in sex) as much as being the redneck across the way with the beer belly. Ha! Perceived sex rank mostly only matters within the pair….

    When I discovered her OA it ironically gave me enough power to step up, advocate for myself and the possible saving of the marriage, and make a lot of changes in short order. I asked for 6 months. It was better for much of that, but ultimately she seemed bent on finding someone else to the exclusion of considering the new me.

    I asked her to defriend the OM, and open up to me in trust, but she actually clamped down tighter on the security. That should have been an early sign we were doomed, I guess. At the end the situation was I could insinuate myself into her life using Alpha principles, but I wasn’t really invited in. Since getting some distance I can appreciate that the oneitis was bad, but if you love someone and don’t want to mess up your family, it still seems worth trying to work it out before entering the Land of TWABAW.

    Agree with the comment above by ABDada that women will let their attraction drop to the point of vanishing before making a move. My wife called it “being ambivalent.” It’s really a battle I lost several years ago without even knowing. For my wife, once she decided on the OA, it was Game Over.

  16. @wudang

    That is an interesting study and matches my experience. Can you link me to it? I would love to read it.

  17. Some good advice. I think men should ask this one direct, yet honest question if their significant other had an affair: “If you had other options, would you stay with your partner?” If the answer is yes, I think there might be something of value to retain in the man’s eyes, but if the answer is no, the man is only staying with the woman for fear of loneliness like The Dude mentioned.

    Ultimately, though, if a man stays after cheating, even if he poses an ultimatum, she has taken a major step in power. And men would be wise to consider that.

  18. @Christian Player, et. al

    You are correct. Fear of loss and shock at the situation is what keeps most dudes around during the early stages of the aftermath, but that only lasts so long. Even the most mild mannered of milquetoasts is going to reach the stage of “enraged.”

    Statistically (from what I’ve read, and seen first hand with pals and acquaintances) when the woman cheats the marriage is pretty much a dead issue. After the initial shock wears off, and the mad (but failed) scramble to put the genie back in the bottle and return life to “normal”, dudes get pissed off and realize that one of the most fundamental elements a man requires in his woman is out the window, for good. That element being loyalty. Once that’s gone I personally believe it’s only a matter of time until he bolts in one way or another.

    He might do it right away if he has high respect for himself (the smart play in my book), or pretend everything is cool and surprise dump her when the kids are 18 and he’s burned up the last bits of her “good” SMV years, (devilish sir), or he might check out of the marriage and have a little something on the side of his own (touche!). He might hang on there in misery for a long time until he just can’t bear it anymore. I think sooner or later he’ll break.

    Any way you slice it, in my book, when she cheats, it’s done because it’s such a huge affront to the man’s sense of self respect and manhood. Women might laugh at that (they will) and talk about the fragile male ego or whatever other shame talk they want to use, but to men it’s as real and as fundamental as it gets. Like breathing.

    Chicks don’t understand that. I think that they used to understand that about men, but today it seems they are trained to deride that quality and make fun of it. That’s stupid of them. It’s a quality they should be looking for in a man not shitting on.

    A wife doesn’t even have to cheat to lose her man’s love and concern. Things like talking bad about him to the neighbors or her girlfriends (publicly disrespecting him) will chip away at it bit, by bit, by bit until one day he’s done. Positioning herself in a disloyal manner in a social situation, ie – she flits around the room disrespectfully flirting with every man present and basically embarrasses her husband over and over. Doing things like when a man approaches the couple, she steps in front of her man to greet the new man. Subtle, but the message is clear and the message is received loud and clear.

    Smart chicks realize (but there seem to be very few who realize) that one day they will be older and not so young and pretty and OMG Fabulous! The investment they make in being loyal and respectful to their man, building him up instead of shitting on him every chance they get will be paid back in spades by his loyalty and continued provisioning during her sexually useless years. The woman should be scrupulously loyal during the first half of the marriage in order to ensure that the man will be loyal during the second half of the marriage when the SMV flip flops and things are irrevocably in his favor.

    I sometimes wonder when we hear tales about a guy who is 45 and he “suddenly went off the rails” (zoinks!) and is now running off with a 28 year old girlfriend, what we would see if we could watch back in time like a movie. Would we see that when the married couple was a young couple that she treated him like he was an idiot, put him on sex rations and bitched him out all the time, perhaps cheated on him or had “just” an emotional affair or two with a co-worker buddy? (Lolz) If so, what did she honestly expect he would do once things were in his favor and young kid obligations seen to? “Gee, the first fifteen years were so F’ing great, I can’t wait to stick around for the next fifteen!” Nope.

    In the world of men, respect is a big deal. In some circles blatant disrespect between men results in violence. In more genteel circles, like the office or the ‘burbs, it results in subterfuge, paybacks and simmering feuds even if they don’t rise to the level of physical confrontation. A man requires that his wife respects him and treats him with such respect. Her cheating is the exact opposite of this and it can never be undone, apologized away or removed from his memory. There is nothing as useless or caustic to a man as a disloyal woman. Even the Bible tells me so.

    Her cheatin’ heart also creates a big psychological issue for a lot of guys. We talk about putting women on the pedestal, oneittis and all that. We know that’s bad (now). However, most dudes DO have their wife on a pedestal. They thought she was special enough and NAWALT enough that taking the risk of marrying her was worth it. They thought she was the kind of girl they would be proud to take home to mom. When she whores around, that gets blown up. Maybe that’s good, maybe not.

    I’m of the opinion that you should have a mild case of oneitis for your spouse, you should elevate them a bit over others in your consideration, you should be proud to have them on your arm. You shouldn’t have blinders on or be willfully naive about human nature, but still, in your mind, they should be seen as a cut above the rest of the herd. Love Goggles as it were.

    When she whores around, the schism is this: In your mind she was your “special” girl, your wife, the mother of your kids, a part of your family. But once the cat is out of the bag you realize that, yeah, she’s nothing special. Probably never was. To you she was something special, to the guy she’s running around with she’s just a wet and willing hole. Her being okay with being that guy’s fucktoy when you thought so much more highly of her, is kind of a mental twister. Eventually the reality of that hits home. To say you can never look at her the same way again is a pretty big understatement. No man wants to be married to a whore or known around the neighborhood as the sucker who is married to a whore or the neighborhood bike.

    We can explain her behavior and your feelings about it all with red pill knowledge. You can logically process the entire episode through that spectrum. You can take your share of the “blame” for what went on, but still, there it is. It’s just sitting there in your gut, always under the surface. The change of view of her, the extreme disrespect she enacted towards you, the anger over it, that she always has some permanent level of being “one up” on you now or hand, your own body agenda now rejecting her as worthy of resource investment on a primitive level. It all just sits there and it doesn’t really go away deep down. That comes out eventually. Hopefully it comes out by him showing her the door or walking out of it himself.

    It takes some guys a lot longer to realize it’s over and done with because of religious conviction to stick it out, imperative to forgive, men are inherently more loyal and duty bound, fear of change (everything already changed forever dummy), fear of starting life fresh, fear of what it will do to the kids if you split. But hey buddy, she knew all that bad stuff could happen going in, and it didn’t deter her one bit from doing what she did, did it? Nope.

    If you’ve read my comments before you can probably surmise I’m not too keen on marriage in general. I am all for people who are already married sticking it out (I’m rooting for ya!) and making it good as long as there is no: Adultery, Addictions, Physical Abuse. If that stuff is going on from either side, I’m always voting for GTFO of that situation before it eats your soul to the bone, and it will.

    Let me say it like this, I’m not happy I went through a shitty marriage and shitty divorce. I am pretty darn happy that I’m not still married to that woman. Does that make sense? I looked down the road and thought, “F’k, I’m not living like this for 30 more years.” Not with someone whom it turned out wasn’t worth what I put into them, and was disrespectful to the degree she was.

  19. QuietQueen says:

    Ok so I understand this and agree once a woman cheats its basiclly over but what about the other way around? If he cheats and says sorry, changes his behavior… Do you believe him and make a go of it or is it basicly the same thing? Once a man cheats has he checked out of the relationship completely? I never cheated on him but I also wasnt being the best woman I could be and since finding this site and realising the things I was doing TOTALLY wrong despite what I had grown up thinking was correct and made several changes, still working on myself and I plan to always put in as much effort as I am now .. Its been about a year and both of us have changed so much. I have had a few moments of wondering should I step out on him just once to see how it feels but it all comes down to I just can’t be that devious and hurtful and besides it would make me feel worthless and less of a woman for stooping to that level. Its just not an option for me I would have to leave him completely before I could ever consider another man and I know its only when I am feeling sad about the past that it even tries to enter my mind. We have been together almost 9 years and he is the best man I have ever met and I cant and dont want to imagine living without him. Anyways what I really want to know is am I a fool to think he will be faithful in the future as long as I keep up my end of the relationship? Is it to late once a man actually goes thru with a full blown physical and emotional affair to salvage the relationship? He has told me more than once in the last few months that he has never been treated this way by a woman and he loves it. Should I believe that he wants me and me only? He tells me he loves me several times a day and even cooks for me now once or twice a week something he NEVER did before and I must say he is a fantastic cook. We went from sex 2 or 3 times a month to 4-6 times a week! There are several other things he does that he never did before or hasnt done in years. I make a point to dress more feminine and let him know I have respect for him. I ask his opinions and for his help with some things .. I always thought men wanted a totally independant woman, didn’t realise I made him feel he wasn’t needed or valued! I dont throw the affair in his face. Its was hard at first but as the months have past I have learned to let go of most of my anger and hurt and use this as a learning experience and become a better woman. Honestly I feel more like a woman now than I ever have in my life . Once a man cheats can he ever be satisfied by the woman he cheated on? How does it work with men? How do you know when a man is fully committed and in love with you?

  20. So very true @ZLX1. I do like your “AAA” rating. My DH dropped his cheating ex like a hot coal. Due to custody arrangements she was a big part of our lives. He (we) always treated her with as much respect as she deserved (obviously with a more civil veneer when my stepson was present) and her disrespect (and my support) has helped him become a very highly paid and respected specialist in his field (he was a factory worker when I met him). There’s no revenge quite as sweet as a happy and successful life, without her. Naturally, infidelity has always been clearly identified as a deal breaker.
    Interestingly, I recently discussed with my stepson his flatmate who is cheating on her bf. DSS said how he despised her deceit (not fussed about the sluttiness, mind you!). I won’t ever tell him but I wonder how his well cultivated (by her hamster) view of his mother might change.

  21. ImAnonymous says:

    QuietQueen,

    Men and women are different, and in response to cheating usually react differently. A man can cheat and still love and desire his wife while a woman cannot. It’s one of the ways we are wired differently, summed up nicely by the phrase, “a woman needs a reason, a man needs a place”

    If you two are working on your relationship, and have made positive progress then I’d say keep on doing that! Does he visit this site, or read the primer? If not, send him here.

    Yes, I realize it’s a blatant double standard, but that’s the nature of our natures.

    From what you describe, I’d say you both have a good chance as long as you both keep on doing what you are doing. Don’t be a doormat, but don’t be a ball buster about it either. Dwell on the new positive.

    I wish you all the best

  22. @QuietQueen

    Lemme give you some rambling thoughts…

    I am sorry you had to go through that. Speaking from experience, to say that it sucks, is an understatement.

    First off, don’t blame yourself for their behavior. That’s on them. Totally. For sure you have your part to play in creating the overall marriage environment where one or both of you are unhappy, but the decision to cheat belongs to the cheater alone. They had a choice to make: improve the marriage or walk away with clean hands and get a divorce, and then pursue other interests. They chose something else. Something very selfish and dishonest. That wasn’t your decision and I’m certain he didn’t ask for your input or okay before he did it. So yes, you take responsibility for your own actions that maybe created a negative environment but the decision to do you wrong or to act out in that way in response to the negative marriage environment is 100% owned by him.

    Now initially a cheater will often try to make it your fault, but that’s bullshit. They say things like “If you would have done X,Y or Z I wouldn’t have been forced to cheat on you.” Uh-huh. Sure. Sounds like when my kids were 9 years old. “If my brother hadn’t looked at me funny I wouldn’t have been forced to break his toys.” Yeah right, junior. Same logic. Same maturity level.

    It’s a nice easy out. They do wrong, and shift the blame all to you so now you’re supposed to shoulder the burden of the guilt for their behavior. Nope. They did that. They own it.

    If you are still hearing things like that, they aren’t truly remorseful yet. They might be “sorry” but not remorseful yet. They need to get to humility and remorse. It might take a while because after all, who wants to look deep inside themselves and just come out and admit to the world “Yeah, I’m a shit.”

    If they apologize and say things like “I’m sorry I did this but…” The word “but” should indicate it’s not a real apology yet but a Bill Clinton type of apology. Same as above, “I did this but it’s not my fault I did this, it’s your fault and here is why…”

    One of the reasons they do this, I think, is that they don’t feel very good about themselves to start with and for them to have to accept full responsibility for their recent crappy choices, which we all agree are pretty crappy choices, is going to make them feel even crappier about themselves.

    In some sense it’s them vs. them battling inside. A battle between the person they would like to be and who they would like the world to see them as, versus the person that they actually are as proven by their actions up to this point.

    The above only applies to a person who has the potential for redeeming themselves. There is a certain class of person that does this sort of things for sport and the thrill. It could be narcissism or addiction. If you have one of them on your hands you’ll usually know because their behavior will manifest itself in destructive other actions or treatment of people.

    Now for a “regular” kind of cheater…

    The clincher is, if you want to both come out of it and still be together it’s going to take a whole lot of honesty, which is usually in short supply at the moment, a whole lot of togetherness and a whole lot of giving by both parties to try and make things good.

    The hard thing for you, as what we will call the wounded party, is that a lot of the initial giving is going to have to come from you. That might seem awfully unfair to you, because it is. But if you want to stay together, it’s the way it usually has to be unless the cheater has a true personal epiphany akin to a religious conversion.

    At some point you’ll have to give out the hardest thing of all, forgiveness. Not quick and easy forgiveness said in the heat of the moment to keep the whole thing from falling apart, but reasoned, thought out, intentional forgiveness. And when you reach that point, you never mention it again. You abdicate the right to hold it over their head or bring it up or use it as a billy club in the relationship. That’s why true forgiveness is so hard.

    Sometimes when the bad memories come flooding back, you might feel like screaming at the walls or at him, but you hold it back. That’s the deal with forgiveness. It doesn’t mean that you are saying to him that what he did is okay, and he damn well should know that there are no more chances. This is a big thing, so I would only recommend you give it, when they get themselves to a place of remorse and humility, which is quite different from regret and deflection of responsibility, and only when you are good and ready to give it.

    If they are pressuring you to forgive them, they are only doing that to assuage their own guilty conscience. It’s a quick salve on the wound, but no path to any true healing for you both. It’s like you’re laying there with your leg blown off and someone comes up and puts a band-aid on the cut above your eye. “Hey thanks, but um, my leg…?”

    Everyone needs to get real, and that takes time, sometimes a lot of time. If they can’t wait for you to get to that place where you can give true forgiveness on your own, without pressure, and they can’t put in the work on their end to be worthy of it, then I think you know what to do.

    From where I sit, on my throne of dumb, a person who has it in their nature to cheat is an inherently selfish person and an inherently dishonest person. Some people are just wired that way a bit. That’s one of the main problems to solve but it’s difficult to tackle because up until now, it’s worked very well for them. You have to get at that sense of selfishness and solve it. Tough job. Most of the work has to be done by them in that respect.

    That is, if you want assurances of no repeats that are believable. At least as much assurance as there is in this life. Remember though, in life there are truly no guarantees, just percentages and odds. Like stocks, with people, past performance does not indicate future performance, but it does give you a baseline to go by.

    I’m going to recommend a book to you that you will likely find extremely helpful:
    [In addition to Athol’s books :-) ]
    It’s called PISD: here is the Amazon link:
    http://www.amazon.com/Transcending-Post-infidelity-Stress-Disorder-PISD/dp/1587613344

    Now that that is out of the way, let’s talk about the different dynamic when a guy cheats. This is all my unprofessional theorizing so bring your grain of salt.

    I believe part of the reason that it’s not a certain death sentence for a marriage when the man cheats is social programming and expectation, “Boys will be boys” so to speak, so it’s not such a shock to the system if a guy misbehaves. Or to put it another way, because he’s a guy there’s just this social assumption that him doing something like this is always within the realm of possibilities.

    Now, I know a lot of guys who never have and never would do it. Guys I’ve known like they were my brothers for 20 or more years so I feel pretty safe saying that. But in general as a society we seem to expect the man will get up to hijinks and not women. Which is really funny because all these guys are banging someone. Anyway…

    I’d have to ask you, did your gut ever tell you that him doing that was within the realm of possibilities for him as an individual? Your answer to that probably has a lot to do with your general level of shock at finding out what was going on.

    Where it’s different when the wife cheats is that I’d say that the vast, vast majority of guys never even consider that their sweet wife would do something like that. I have heard more than once: “My wife would never…” followed sometime later by “I can’t believe she did that…” Usually from women I hear: “I knew it! That mother-f’er!”

    I dunno, women just tend to be less shocked. Another theory why that is?: I think, but I don’t know, but I think part of the reason is women don’t tend to pedestalize the man as hardcore as a man will pedestalize his wife, if they even do it at all. That’s part of the reason it just completely jolts a man’s world upside down. He’s got her very far up on that pedestal.

    Another difference would be that guys will bang a chick and not give a rat’s behind about her skank ass. Women know this on a gut level. Now of course, women will bang a guy and not give a crap too, but guys are really good at that. If the guy who was cheating was just chasing some tail and he didn’t lavish resources or money on the other woman, resources that should have gone to the wife, that’s going to reduce the level of outrage the wife feels.

    If he was taking the other woman on big trips, buying her expensive jewelry, setting her up in a nice apartment, the wife is going to be 10x as pissed, especially if there are kids in the marriage. If God forbid, he gets the other broad pregnant, that’s a big one. If he was telling the other chick he loved her and making plans to run away, and he actually meant it and wasn’t just saying whatever he had to say to keep the action going, that’s a big one to a wife.

    Other reasons women tend to stay: despite this being the 21st Century and all, the truth of the matter is in a household, especially one with kids, the woman is still much more dependent on the man than the reverse. A good guy recognizes this and uses his position of power to take good care of his 1st officer and crew. A bad captain uses his position of power at the expense of the crew for his own gain. Either way, not all women have the option to bail. Things are tough financially after divorce for many women.

    All the Manosphere tales of wives grinding their husband into the dirt and living the high life aside, for a lot of regular women with kids, divorce means less money, lower standard of living for the kids, less time, more work, etc. It’s a lot. I think that weighs heavily in her decision to stay. But times are a changing and maybe as we continue to see women outpace men in college degrees and average earnings, the roles will flip flop. Dunno.

    Where was I? Oh yeah,

    Here is a big one, and the most controversial. A lot of guys who get up to this, (narcissist, hardcore playah’s, wannabe tough guys and sex addicts aside), are actually sorry. What? Yeah, they are actually sorry. Women who cheat are rarely sorry. Why?

    The women are sorry in the sense that a teenager caught shoplifting is sorry. They are sorry for what might be the repercussions as it pertains to them, but they are rarely sorry for the shit they dealt out to their husband because when they are at the point of banging other dudes in the back of cars in the office parking lot, they hate their husband with their vagina with a fury and they are d.o.n.e. with him, forever. She is definitely planning on leaving him and the new guy is his replacement.

    Usually there is a kink in the plan though, the new guy just considers her a slutty piece of ass and he has no intention of running off with her. Once that plays out she slinks back home, gives the perfunctory “I’m sorry, but…” and hopes like hell she can give enough blow jobs to make this all roll over. Hehe.

    I think that usually when a guy cheats, he has no intention to leave his wife, and he still loves her. So my theory is that he can actually get to a place of true remorse much more readily than a woman can. The guy probably still loves his wife, even though he’s acting like a dickhead. The woman cheating totally does not love her husband “that way” anymore. So for her to get to a place of true remorse requires not only taking responsibility for her actions (warning: man-pig comment) which a lot of women have problems doing these days, but she has to actually fall back in love with him again, when her entire body has rejected him in place of another. A tall order. So that’s why to me, when she cheats, it’s done except in the most extraordinary of circumstances. The stats would seem to bear this out.

    You ask, “Once a man cheats, can he ever be satisfied with his wife?” I think so. If you want to have a good marriage, even if there have been problems in the past, you both need to be doing the things for each other that good spouses do. That tends to make everyone happy as long as each party receives the same from the other in roughly equal measure. Everyone is happy. Hooray Beer!

    Now of course your husband loves all the positive things you are doing right now. I would, any man would. But, is he doing positive things for you and being an open book as far as his life, communications, comings and goings, etc. He needs to be super accountable for his whereabouts and who with’s for a very long time. How long? As long as you need it.

    It can’t be all one sided with you giving until your tank is empty and him lapping up all this awesome new wife behavior. He’s gotta give too, if not, you might get pretty resentful and that’s going to get in the way of you two working towards a better tomorrow.

    So, if he has come home, confessed or been caught, said I’m sorry and now you’re like super hot – sexy, cook him breakfast wife, and he’s all lounge around the house and act like an arrogant dick husband, then you’re kind of rewarding his bad behavior. You sure enough should be receiving good things in return.

    Also, check your motivations. Do the things that are good for each other because you want to do them. Not because you are afraid he will leave or because you feel you have to compete with this other woman. If he’s playing that card and using it to make you jump when he says jump, well, that’s an awful way to spend your life living with that level of fear and anxiety of loss isn’t it? I hope he’s not, I hope he’s well on the path to having some humility and true remorse and I hope you are well on the path of healing and working your way towards forgiveness.

    You also basically asked “How do I know he’s sorry and loves me, not her?” You know by actions. People say all kinds of shit. Pay no attention. Watch what people do. That’s who they really are and what they are really up to. You know this. I know this. Anyone who ever had their spouse phone in “Love ya baby!” and then found out later that they were meeting the other person that very night, knows the truth of this. Actions. Not words. Show. Don’t tell.

    Oh, and QuietQueen, please don’t go out and cheat. You’d only be hurting yourself. There are some things in this life that once you do them, you can’t take them back, and at the end of the day we all have to look at ourselves in the mirror and not hate ourselves or make ourselves sick. One of the mirrors we have to look into is the eyes of our children. I can look into my sons eyes and know that I never did things that would make them ashamed that I was their father if they found out. You get me?

    Wish you peace, love and orgasms!

  23. QuietQueen says:

    ImAnonymous

    No he doesn’t know about this site to my knowledge. Im afraid if I show it to him he will think less of the changes I have made. Plus he’s not a reader .. Never have I caught him reading a book or any articles on-line. He is very alpha and to be honest I would be scared for him to up his game any more than what he already has naturally. I have been tempted to a couple times on reading things I think he would be interested in but haven’t shown it to him as of yet. I think Athol is amazing for putting this out here for men and for giving females a chance to understand the male point of view.

  24. Holy Hey-Zeus,

    I must be all touch feely this evening. I turned into a teddy bear. Disregard everything I said above. Throw that MF’re out! Lolz. (Just kidding, but do keep the option on the table.)

  25. Well if he’s very Alpha, then maybe he needs to get the other part of his act together if he wishes to be married. It requires both, from both parties. Get him Athol’s book for sure. It covers both sides of the coin.

    Night all.

  26. @ZLX1
    Mate you nailed it. Same story with my first wife, your words describe all of my situation. Problem is once taking the red pill, you blame yourself even more.

  27. QuietQueen,

    “Ok so I understand this and agree once a woman cheats its basically over but what about the other way around? If he cheats and says sorry, changes his behavior… Do you believe him and make a go of it or is it basically the same thing? Once a man cheats has he checked out of the relationship completely? I never cheated on him but I also wasn’t being the best woman I could be and since finding this site and realizing the things I was doing TOTALLY wrong despite what I had grown up thinking was correct and made several changes, still working on myself and I plan to always put in as much effort as I am now …”

    You should believe him and make a go of it.

    Men and women do not bond in the same way or check out of a relationship in the same way, and the entire context within which men and women have sex is different. They can do the same things for different reasons, and the same things can affect them in different ways. Unless he cheats on you again, there is no reason to think that everything will not turn out well.

    “I have had a few moments of wondering should I step out on him just once to see how it feels but it all comes down to I just can’t be that devious and hurtful and besides it would make me feel worthless and less of a woman for stooping to that level.”

    That you did not cheat on him is critically important, because it left the door open for him to come back to you. I do not condone cheating by anyone, especially since loyalty takes up the entire first page of my list of priorities.

    But sex for a man can be an act without any significant effect on him or meaning to him, while the same is not true for a woman. This is not a hypocritical conclusion, it is just the way that it is. Maybe Mother Nature really is a bitch. :-)

    “Anyways what I really want to know is am I a fool to think he will be faithful in the future as long as I keep up my end of the relationship? … Once a man cheats can he ever be satisfied by the woman he cheated on? How does it work with men? How do you know when a man is fully committed and in love with you?”

    ” [I] didn’t realize I made him feel he wasn’t needed or valued!”

    I think that you are the opposite of a fool, and that he can certainly be satisfied by you! In a way, you two are acquaintances who are only now starting your marriage.

    The last quoted statement looks like it is the key to your situation.

    If you made him feel that he wasn’t needed or valued, then (in a sense) you didn’t exist. He didn’t actually cheat on you, because you were never there.

    I am not trying to play legalistic semantic games to excuse his behavior, which I do not consider to have been a proper response to the situation.

    What I am trying to suggest is that what you experienced as a betrayal was not an intentional or malicious or perhaps even conscious betrayal on his part.

    I think that you both were victims of the unending bullshit about men and women that is prevalent everywhere. And so he found himself in a marriage with a woman whom he did not experience as his woman and soul mate, but more like a competitor and room mate.

    I am not picking on you here, QuietQueen. He is at least as much at fault, and I rather like you. But you are the one who can now make everything better.

    I think that you are now on the right track (and I am rather amazed by how much you have changed and how much insight you have gained, in such a short time) so, to answer your question again, I think that derailing your train at this point would be a really bad idea,

    As far as knowing when a man is fully committed and in love with you, that is built over time.

    But men do not leave relationships with kind women who are eagerly and energetically engaging with them, mentally and emotionally as well as physically.

    And you are in luck, because men are basically simple creatures. It is funny how women like to repeat that line, and yet they apparently do not even listen to what they themselves are saying. :-)

    Men need to feel needed and appreciated and respected and loved by a woman who is a complement and not a competitor. Women are rarely good at being “strong and independent”, and men prefer and enjoy taking care of a loving junior partner.

    I have known a few couples who enjoyed taking care of each other, and they were always direct and honest with each other, but only in the spirit of building each other up. And they are the only ones that I have seen stay together forever.

    QuietQueen, you have great potential and I think that everything will turn out well for you.

    Best wishes.

  28. @ Rellz,

    I know how you feel. I’ve lived it. But you survive, and you learn. In time, maybe you look back and can find some glimmer of a feeling of being fortunate for having gone through it. Strange to say that? Perhaps. The pain is still there, it will always be there, but just think of the knowledge and the strength you have gained. Think how much stronger you are than others who have never been tested in that way and have had to fight their way out of one of the lowest of lows. But you did it. You did it. Now put it to good use and keep moving towards that better tomorrow and that better you.

    This will help:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw

  29. QuietQueen says:

    ZLX1 – Thank-you for getting all teddy bearish … You gave me some things to think about.

  30. This post is me. I’m an 8 who (until about 10 days ago) was gaming a 6…that was until she cheated on me with someone out of the blue from her pre-me past. She had flown back ‘home’ for a funeral (lots of emotion) It was literally a weekend affair that, as she put it, was the result of her being with friends from her past, in places from her past and having thoughts and feelings from her past. I don’t know if those words tell me she got caught up in a whirlwind of past emotion and feelings that caused her to feel like she was IN her past, or if it was a case of motive and opportunity. Or both.

    Whatever. She cheated. I caught her. And she came clean immediately when I confronted her (It took her a while to get the words out because, I think, telling me what happened made it more real to her, but she did tell me). She admitted that she “f@^ked up” – and while I wasn’t there to witness anything when it happened, I trust I got a pretty good version of the truth. I made the mandatory initial demands – cut off all contact with this PoS or I will do it for you, etc – all within the 3 day window. She claims losing a friend from her past was an easy choice compared to losing me, our son and our life together. It was nice to know that we both saw it my way.

    But this is where it gets “messy” and where I find the phrase YRMV come into play with any kind of advice of the colored-pill nature. Eight years ago _I_ “f@^ked up” too and was subsequently forgiven – and to date I don’t know how or why I was. But I was. We worked very hard to stay together and I worked very hard to ‘make up’ for the betrayal I’d caused and the trust I had broken…but I/we never set nor acknowledged a point where my perceived ‘making-up/debt’ would be fully re-paid. And so I kept paying my debt – disguised as helping her… enabling… doing… catering… bringing her pretty things… and fell firmly into the beta trap out of habitually thinking that I owed her something. This slowly started to reverse itself over the past 16 months as I discovered MMSL, started the MAP and my wife and I even started working out together…it was working – really working.

    But, something in her head at the time made her think cheating was somehow going to solve something or fill a need for her. The same way it happened for me. All it created was more emptiness. The opposite of filling a need.

    @QuietQueen got cheated on by her man – and she chose to stay – or, rather, let him stay. To her, I will say that after I cheated, I did NOT check out of the relationship. I saw the damage my behavior caused and I vowed to never let that happen again…or, more accurately, I vowed to never let MYSELF do that again…and my wife believed me and we made a go of it. I just over-gave to make up for it and fell into the beta trap.

    In my case, it’s as if my wife and I have a mutual and unspoken “See how stupid it feels to cheat?” moment after she cheated – and we’ve decided to move on together contrary to what many suggest. I think we’ve both seen how terrible the grass can be on the other side. I don’t think my wife was ‘hating me with her vagina’ and I do believe she has the potential for redeeming herself – she’s already working on it – even when it gets painful and she has to re-live some of what she did for my sake.

    My point here is that there are exceptions to rules – even rules of nature. I’m giving my wife a chance to be an exception before I follow the “rules.”

    YRMV

  31. QuietQueen,

    In case you missed it, I wrote a comment to you above, but it was in moderation for a long time.

  32. @ ZLX1
    “Chicks don’t understand that. I think that they used to understand that about men, but today it seems they are trained to deride that quality and make fun of it. That’s stupid of them.”

    Yeah, because, in the olden days, cheating on a man meant he would f*ing kill you.
    In civilized society by divorcing you and leaving you to starve,
    and in less civilized society by direct clubbing.

  33. AnonWriter says:

    I’ll add my name to the list of failed marriages that followed this script.

    I would also like to add my agreement with the idea that you have a 3-day window after cheating is discovered.

    You really do need to act right away. Actually, I now advocate that the man file for divorce immediately. You can always pause divorce proceedings if things look positive. (Obviously, this is if you want to give the marriage a chance. If you don’t, then it doesn’t matter what you do.)

    The frame that a man has when dealing with a cheating wife is critical. He must be fully under control. This is extremely difficult when your life has come crashing down, but when with the wife, this is the frame that he needs. Filing for divorce is part of being in this frame, as is insisting on full no-contact with the affair partner. The man must know and act like what has happened is totally unacceptable, but that life will go on. The attitude should be that the wife needs to earn her spot in his life all over again.

    It’s so contrary to what most men do. They read books or listen to their wives and marriage counselors giving blue pill advice. They think “love will always triumph”, and that their wives would never throw away a good marriage (and cheating does happen in a lot of otherwise good marriages).

    They don’t realize that their wives are pretty far gone already, and being discovered in their affair has sent them well beyond the edge. The women typically lie and say they want to work on the marriage, but this only lasts until they’ve gathered the strength to admit to themselves that they don’t want to be married any more. Once this happens, the man will sense problems, but she will make excuses to keep him going… until she has the strength to admit to him also that she wants the marriage to end.

    You can’t let it take this course, and there is a way to avoid it in some cases. It takes a shock to a woman’s system, and it has to happen withing days, to get them to see things with any sort of clarity. This shock is the filing of divorce and the man’s frame. Without that shock, they will soon be seeking out support for divorce, like reading Eat Pray Love or other pro-divorce drivel. They will be getting cheerleading from their girlfriends or anyone else who will help them gather the strength to divorce. Meanwhile, the men are doing everything their wives and counselors say they should do to save the marriage. It makes the men extremely unattractive, and it very rarely works out.

    I’ve given this advice to 5 or 6 different guys who caught their wives cheating. None of them had the balls to follow that advice, and they’re all divorced now. I can’t blame them for not listening to me. If I’d been given this advice, it would have been hard for me to follow it also.

  34. QuietQueen says:

    Loki – I did miss your comment! Thank you so much for your kind words.
    Rich – Thank-you for sharing your story. I am happy for you both.

    I just worry about being blind to the fact if he chooses to cheat again. I don’t want to be his fool ever again. I think that keeps me from trusting in us completely again. I still get emotional when I think about it sometimes but I don’t do it when he is around. I have some hurt and anger that still lingers and I want it gone. It’s an aweful feeling. I’m tired of it. Mind you its not everyday like at first… much, much less than that now. I still get that feeling sometimes that he is keeping something from me and I’m not sure if it is a gut feeling or my hamster running around like a chicken with its head cut off lol! I think thats why I still have some of these feelings because something inside me says don’t forget what he did or what if he does it again? I don’t tell him because I don’t want to keep bringing it up or make him think of her anymore than he might already. We have talked about it several times especially after first finding out and in the first 6 months after finding out.

    I make enough to take care of myself if it came down to that so I’m not afraid of being able to make it without him, it’s a fear of being without him. I really do love him and want to be by his side. There are still times he makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, makes me laugh, plus all the other things I told you. Some people say it would make their skin crawl to even be touched by their man if he did this but that has never been my feelings. Funny because I was once those women who said the exact same thing. I always said I would leave if he ever cheated. I ate those words and let him back in our bed after 2 days of him confessing! I found this site within a week. It helped so much. I started realising to my horror how much I was doing wrong. Little things like using the words I, me, mine when referring to things when I should have been saying we, us, ours .. Big things like cutting lines of communication and affection telling myself if he loves me he will know what I want or need and give it to me! Ha! Even Superman couldn’t read minds! So many more things that after a few days of research I burst out in laughter at how I was so unaware of how to be a real woman then of course it turned to painful sobs knowing how I had done so many things wrong. We weren’t a team just like Rich said … more like existing in the same space. How sad. I am better this way. I actually laugh daily now! I feel like a woman now. I didn’t just do it for him I also did it for me. I am 32 just learning how things work! It was very hard at first but now it seems more natural. Thanks for answering and giving me a mans viewpoint!

  35. QuietQueen,

    ZLX1 brought up a good point. Was he truly remorseful? If he was not, that may be what is eating at you.

    Trust is a delicate thing, and you’ve lost it. If something inside your head says “he’s still being secretive” then you need to address that, with him. Maybe you two need more openness with each other (email, phone, etc) until such time as that trust is rebuilt.

    Maybe you need to sit down and say “just listen so you know what is going on in my head” and tell him what is bothering you and that is it something you both have to work through and deal with.

    Whatever you do, don’t just sit on it and let it gnaw away at your insides.

    As for what he can do, well that I’m not sure. You need comfort and the feeling of security, but on the other hand, if he doles out too much beta, your hamster will lose interest in him.

    Since we don’t know the backstory, what was his excuse for stepping out on you? No, you don’t have to answer that. I’m just wondering if that will help shed any light on the matter.

  36. Version3.0 says:

    @QuietQueen

    There’s no way around the whole Trust thing. You can either buy into it or not.

    I would trust your instincts, maybe ask the direct questions, and go from there. Cheating before doesn’t necessarily make one more likely to cheat again, if the underlying problems can be dealt with and heartfelt regret seems to be the order of the day. It’s an excellent idea, even if you don’t introduce MMSL, to frame the problem in Athol’s way: “if we do x y and z to keep each other happy, continue growing, act out of honesty, and by the way get laid like tile, I promise not to cheat and hope you can do the same.” Unless he’s really dumb, most guys will appreciate and embrace that approach.

  37. QuietQueen says:

    pdwalker and Version3.0 – Thank-you for commenting.

    I’m afraid to start asking questions again because I’m afraid of losing the progress we have made and I don’t want him to think I am always going to hang this over his head. Maybe the idea of saying: “if we do x y and z to keep each other happy, continue growing, act out of honesty, and by the way get laid like tile, I promise not to cheat and hope you can do the same.” is a good start. As far as him being truely sorry I think he was for like the first month and then I think he was tired of talking about it. Its hard to say. When he first told me and a couple days following he cried his heart out and asked me to stay with him. I was of course very unsure if I could trust him as I knew there was a chance he was still talking with her. He was very careful of my feelings and stayed with me as much as life would allow besides work or other nessesary things. He is slowly taking more freedoms and I am fine with that more or less. I think he was more sorry in the beginning and now I think he kinda feels its not a big deal anymore which I am sure has to do with the fact of me not bringing it up. It is still there though and just when I think I am good it creeps up. It is mostly the feeling he will do it again.

  38. QuietQueen says:

    oh and on the reasons for cheating .. He told me I wasn’t available to him, conversation was terrible, very little affection, he felt like I didn’t care one way or the other. Which of course I couldn’t agrue about because all those things were true I did them but not with the intention of making him care less about me. I thought it would make him try and do more for me … Yea I know how stupid it sounds now but at the time I didn’t realise I was opening the door for him to look elsewhere. I think thats why this is so hard for me cause I know I am just as much to blame as he is. Sure he could have chose another way to handle it but I should have never treated him that way. I have always loved him and wanted to make him happy. I kept a clean house, cooked, sex was there but not enough, worked, I thought that was what he needed most from me and would make him happy. Wrong! He also said he felt I was seeing someone else because I payed so little attention to him the last year or 2 leading up to his affair. I wasn’t of course I just knew we weren’t close anymore and didn’t know why. I’m not even really sure when it all started. I always tried to handle everything myself in the hopes he would be glad I didn’t bother him with it. Backfire! Instead he felt unneeded, unwanted, unrespected, and worst of all unloved. Can’t really say i blame him as much as I blame myself. If it could be done the wrong way by a woman other than cheating on him I’m pretty sure I was doing it. It makes me sad to think about it and how much time I wasted and how it could have been spent being happy and enjoying life. I’m less stressed now because I don’t feel like I have to do or worry about everything because he is there to help or I should say I am there to help him not do it for him. Somethings I worried about don’t even really flipping matter. So basically I am the reason he cheated so I guess thats why I worry it may happen again.

  39. QuietQueen says:
    August 22, 2012 at 11:30 pm
    “So many more things that after a few days of research I burst out in laughter at how I was so unaware of how to be a real woman then of course it turned to painful sobs knowing how I had done so many things wrong. We weren’t a team just like Rich said … more like existing in the same space. How sad. I am better this way. I actually laugh daily now! I feel like a woman now. I didn’t just do it for him I also did it for me.”

    Good girl! This is the best reason to make major changes in your life. For my part, I realize that my wife is the primary beneficiary of my changes, but it is not so much about that for me as it is realizing I have the power within me to become a better person. The result will be a better marriage, but the goal is to be a better man.

    “he felt unneeded, unwanted, unrespected, and worst of all unloved.”

    It sounds like you have addressed and are addressing the root causes. Respect is huge. I would go so far to say that respect is more important to a man than love.

    I can understand him not wanting to rehash the affair after months of improvements in your relationship. From all you have said, I would think that as long as you are feeding his basic needs and he is reciprocating yours as you have described, the chances of a new affair brewing up are slim. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but why would he if you have the bases well-covered?

    “He has told me more than once in the last few months that he has never been treated this way by a woman and he loves it. Should I believe that he wants me and me only? He tells me he loves me several times a day and even cooks for me now once or twice a week something he NEVER did before and I must say he is a fantastic cook. We went from sex 2 or 3 times a month to 4-6 times a week! There are several other things he does that he never did before or hasnt done in years. I make a point to dress more feminine and let him know I have respect for him.”

    That.

    You have made yourself a uniquely positive experience for him. That’s addictive to a man.

    I bought my wife a book several months ago about “how to bring out your inner French Girl”. She finally got around to reading it lately, and has been doing a few things I have noticed, such as dressing herself differently (more sexy). This communicates volumes to me–where her words have been lacking, her actions tell me that my own implementation of the MAP is bearing fruit. Her following my leading tells me the corner was turned quite a while ago, from a dead marriage to one that has potential.

    Keep watching the actions. They mean far more than any words could.

  40. @Desert Cat makes a great point about respect vs. love. My wife disrespected BOTH of us when she made her decision to cheat on me. And I think she beats herself up about it far more than I ever could – and I’ve done my fair share of brow-beating lately. I have the luxury, frankly, of not having to live with the regret of her actions and disrespect. That’s her job – and if that regret – that ‘beating herself up’ is a part of what keeps her honest and loyal and respectful, then so be it. My suspicion is that she realized immediately after what she’d done (perhaps during…eeeesh) what she has in me – and maybe she truly thought the grass was greener on the other side for whatever reason – or that she could magically go into her past and relive some freedom that she’d perceived as lost and then block out what happened in her mind. Regardless, we talked in detail about respect – even about my respect for her coming clean immediately after I confronted her. It wasn’t something I was actually expecting – I was anticipating days of silence, interrupted by fits of yelling and screaming until the truth came out – if at all, but she showed true respect by letting it all out in one go.

    Her actions over the past few weeks have said a lot. She knows how close she came to losing everything we’ve worked so hard for – including our child. But she’s working hard to put this behind us and that includes dealing with the circumstances and emotions that enabled this to happen. Only time will tell if her actions are sincere or not. But…it’s been a great time for me to be a little more aggressive – to crank the Alpha knob into my discomfort zone. It’s been paying off. It’s unfortunate because we re making real progress together – exercising together, getting our finances together, planning out a long-term future – together. This sets us back a bit from the perspective of our marriage, but it puts me light years ahead in terms of my sex rank and leadership role in the marriage.

    And yes bringing up the affair as part of the healing is a double-edged sword. I’ve tried to stay away from the details when we talk (even though I want to know) – and try to focus on the emotions, the reasons, etc. Partly because I don’t think this was about sex – sex was the culmination of emotions and circumstances – but also because sex can represent more than just ‘love’ – I don’t think she loves/ed the other guy – I think she had an emotional event and he played along to the point where he took advantage of her. That’s just my take though. Yes, she’s culpable, but I’m a guy – I know what guy are capable of.

    Anyway, @QuietQueen – don’t give up. You aren’t the reason he cheated. You’re the excuse he’s using to rationalize his actions – OR you’re offering yourself up as the excuse. It’s a nice cozy degree of separation between what he did and the fact that he didn’t do anything to prevent it. He had countless opportunities to tell you what was going on. Countless nights to express himself. Thousands of places online to seek advice…and yet he didn’t. I’m amazed at how many people DON’T get what they want because they don’t talk about it.

  41. Rich

    (even though I want to know)

    You *really* don’t want the details. That would become a most insidious poison. Keep it abstract.

  42. @pdwalker – It can’t be any worse than my imagination could create anyway, so yeah, best left alone. I know just enough to not need to know the rest. But there’s that part of me…

    Better to make new details in my marriage to take up the space in that vacuum of uncertainty.

  43. @Rich and Pdwalker

    Yeah, details. Don’t ask if you don’t want to know, and matter of fact state up front in any discussion that it would be best if that kind of stuff was not blurted out unasked for. Once you know something, you can’t unknow it.

    Now on the other hand, your imagination is probably ten times worse than what actually went on. Maybe. <—See that word there. Maybe.

    So, some people need all the details or details to a certain level so they can quiet their imagination down and deal with the "truth." Keeping in mind that there is a 99% chance you will never, ever know the details in full (because you weren't there) no matter how much you ask and there is a 99% chance that your spouse is going to lie about some or all of it to whatever degree they decide to.

    Maybe they lie because they want that memory just for themselves, maybe they are afraid that if they tell you that they did things with the other person they never did with you, you'll insta-divorce them (you should), or maybe there was that special thing you thought only the two of you did and they did it with the other person (insta-divorce). Yeah. Great.

    Or they lie because they think they are "protecting" you from harm. Which is kind of laughable since if they were so concerned about that they wouldn't be out there playing with strange vaginas and penises to start with. Sigh. I really hate people some days.

    Funny thing is the cheater never seems to be able to wrap their mind around the concept that if they want to have a chance to save the tatters of their relationship, the only way to do it is 100% honesty. But that's rare because you are dealing with a person that you know, at least where you are concerned, has a big problem being an honest person. So you have to be a human lie detector or whatever.

    It's exhausting anyway you slice it. I tried but had my fill of it and realized I was putting a lot of effort into a losing battle.

    There is an old military maxim. Never reinforce failure. You don't keep pouring resources and troops into the battle where you are getting your ass handed to you. You'll lose everything. Pull back or attack in a different direction, but stop doing that thing that keeps bleeding you out.

    The worst thing about the cheating aftermath, at least to me, is that it just tarnishes every memory you have with them and calls every single moment with them into question from the word go. You just wonder if every single thing and memory with them from day one was all bullshit and a con. It makes your reality very, I don't even know how to say, but the word squishy comes to mind. Very surreal and the truly vicious ones totally play on your temporary disorientation and use it to continue to take advantage.

    Cheating, it's like throwing a bunch of dirt in a stream and it never quite clears up.

  44. QuietQueen says:

    Quick side question …. I think I am doing things to show him respect. What are good ways for a woman to show the man she loves respect? I know men and women think differently so my idea of showing respect may not be what ya’ll think is showing respect. If respect is as important as love or even more important then what are good ways to show that respect in a way that he will know that you are showing him respect?

  45. Darth Bane says:

    LOL sith like anger, someone has been playing swtor i bet OR is even a bigger nerd and actually reads the star wars books…

    I played SWTOR for a bit. Have read about a quarter of the books. :-)

  46. @QuietQueen, respect these days is about as much as what you *don’t* do to disrespect someone as it is about what you *DO* to respect them. Start by showing respect for yourself. That can be sexy in itself. Model the behavior you want out of him – be the change you want to see and every other stupid analogy that’s annoyingly true.

  47. Love to read some of these “older” posts and get something new from them.

  48. Great post and excellent comments and insights. I was referred to this post from the Rationale Male article ‘Just Get It’ (cited above).
    Reading this post has been difficult for me and a bitter red pill to swallow; I am in the process of separating from my wife after 22 years of marriage and the contents of this page pretty-well sets out the scenario: novel attraction >> marriage >> child >> perpetual efforts to please and placate her on my part >> perception on her part that whatever I do is insufficient / inadequate >> withdrawal from sexual relationship by her >> suspicion of multiple infidelities (me about her) >> threat of divorce by me (five years ago) leading to abandonment and withdrawal from relationship by me >> walkaway by her (four months ago) >> separation (now).
    The sad cruelty and idiocy on my part is that my devotion to a woman who did not care for me damaged my relationships with friends and family alike — a mistake I do not intend to repeat!

Trackbacks

  1. […] don’t usually cite Athol Kay on Rational Male, but I have to give him props for his recent How Walkaway Wives Run a Dirty MAP. There’s a lot going on in this post, and as per usual Athol approaches all of his […]

  2. […] no cito a Athol Kay en el Rational Male, pero tengo que felicitarlo por su reciente artículo “How Walkaway Wives Run a Dirty MAP”. Tiene muchas cosas interesantes el artículo, y como ya es usual, Athol aborda sus observaciones […]

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