Redemption Is An Action

Reader:  I have been reading your blog for a bit now. I learned some good things here but there was a underlying theme that I didn’t like that I couldn’t pin point. Today I realized what it was. You have no respect for your wife. You find it okay to size up a woman and even seemed to have considered if things might get out of hand but you never step back and cut it off. (you can’t use this post of a example of cutting it off because you didn’t. You simply stopped liking the other woman because she writes incorrectly.) You seem to leave it to Jennifer to tell you that it is going too far. It almost seems that if Jen was open to swinging or you having a side thing then you would take her up on it; you know, because JEN said it was alright.

How does one develop a crush if you are married? It is like you are considering what you might get out of a relationship even though you are supposedly devoted to Jen. I don’t know. Something does not seem right here.

I thank you for the advice you put up.

Athol:  As an important aside, the events of that post were 8-10 years ago, so what I did then and what Jennifer and I would do now is quite different.

Amongst other things, MMSL is my effort at all purpose redemption.

I’ve not been a good guy. I’m a regular guy that’s done some questionable things and would probably have done some even more questionable things if I had a greater skill with women at the time of opportunity. I got into learning about Game not to save my marriage, but to explore cheating on my wife. But I also read over everything and part of my research into infidelity revealed the true horror of being cheated on. Jennifer is a good woman and in the end I didn’t have the heart to do that to her. I do love her. But I’d still done some less than stellar things over the years. For me the worst part of taking the Red Pill was realizing that I was in fact not the good guy I thought I was, that I had trampled on Jennifer and she was in love with me the whole time I was starting to check out on her. I was ashamed of myself.

Jennifer and I had experimented with softswing very briefly in the first few years of our marriage. I was very interested in it and Jennifer just didn’t like the reality of it, so we stopped. One of the things about opening up your marriage is once you open it up, pandora’s box doesn’t close easily… if at all. It took me about 10-12 years to come to peace with not swinging. If Jennifer gave me the green light now to have someone on the side, it would only be because she no longer loved me.

I developed a crush on someone, because she had cleavage and admired me. That’s about it. I always thought people that said “it just happened and I didn’t mean it to go this far” were full of crap. Then it just happened to me… but it’s the how far it goes part that determines how full of crap you are.

Through all of our ups and downs though, we’ve always had a steady sexual connection. The thing about us being sexual with each other everyday barring illness or injury is 100% true. I think it’s made all the difference for us. We’ve also been able to see how we both have played a role in our greatest mistakes together. We’ve been angry with each other, but never taken it to insults and names. One of the things we’re discovered for us at least, is that honesty and openness is the best way to banish all the little thoughts of doing misdeeds in the shadows. Jennifer for her part has become tougher and stronger and stands up for herself far better now.

We’ve adjusted and are still learning and adjusting.

Jennifer: Nobody is perfect, and if I accept that about people in general I have to accept that about my husband too.  Now he is using his powers for good. 

Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.   -Palpatine

 

Comments

  1. I, for one, came across this section of the internet when I was just about to dive head first into an emotional affair. MMSL sort of slapped me back into reality and I stopped myself just in time. My husband thinks its ridiculous that I read this blog, but he has *no idea* what MMSL has done for HIM.

  2. Athol, that was very good of you to explain all that. Especially about how you have changed and what you’ve learned. At first, part of me felt like judging you harshly yesterday about your intentions to stray and be a cake eater. But then I stopped myself.
    I’m not perfect, either.
    A few years back, I wasn’t getting the attention I needed at home and got tangled in the beginnings of an emotional affair that could have gone physical had I not stopped myself.
    I guess sometimes we have to almost screw everything up to realize how good we have it.
    The important thing is that we learn lessons and grow in the process.

    Exactly.

  3. Redpillalready says:

    Athol, I’d be interested in more posts that delve into this realm of “how to be a good spouse when you’re an imperfect human.” Some of the rules and tricks you’ve learned along the way might help those of us who are still trying to figure it out.

  4. Star violet says:

    See I was thinking that Jennifer doesn’t have much respect of herself so there is no need for Athol to respect her. That this blog even exists and shares the intimate details of her sex life and relationship is evidence of that. The blog seems to be helping a lot of people, so I guess the rest of us should be grateful that Jennifer doesn’t insist on more respect.

    You don’t seem grateful though. You sound contemptous of her.

  5. It has been said by Dr. Willard Harley, creator of the Marriage Builders website, that ANYone can commit infidelity under the right circumstances. Part of our “job” as married people is to do our best to identify those circumstances BEFORE we find ourselves too deeply enmeshed in them, and get ourselves out of them or avoid them altogether. Sure we can blame our spouses for not giving us enough attention/affection/sex or whatever our most pressing need may be, but in the end it’s really up to us to decide whether or not to go outside the marriage to get that need filled.

  6. pdwalker says:

    …You have no respect for your wife

    Annnnnnnnnd that’s why I left that reply alone. I knew a much better answer would be forthcoming.

    There was an earlier post (sorry, I cannot find it) that led to one poster being banned and Jennifer getting the ban powers ( http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/05/jennifer-is-the-banhammer/ ) because someone thought, insisted, that Jennifer was some kind of sexual prisoner.

    If anyone reads any of the posts long enough, especially with Jennifer’s comments, you’ll soon see otherwise. Honestly I have no idea how the original poster could have come to that conclusion that this was the case right now.

  7. I only find fault in the quote selection: we all know that Palpatine was manipulating Anakim and he eventually ended up killing his pregnant wife (“Loss the will to live…” my ass there is a reason Jedi’s cannot love just one person once the connection is broken in violent/sudden way the person with less “force” will bleed midichlorians till they die, that is my fanwank and I’m sticking to it) losing his kids and becoming Darth Vader and ruling with iron fist for almost 20 years… So yeah exploring both sides doesn’t seem like a good idea coming from the big bad of the movie, IMO.

    Then you are in favor of a life of celibacy and avoidance of emotional entanglements? A life seeking to avoid passion? The Jedi were wrong about a great many things…

  8. Gabrielle says:

    I didn’t realize Jen was in on the act. It explains some things. You didn’t have to expand on my comment but you did. I appreciate that.

    Jennifer reads and edits every post before I publish them. How the hell can I quit my job to do this full-time and write two books without Jennifer knowing about it?

  9. Kudos for your honesty. I’m still skeptical. It proves a point to me about Men in general.

    Women are no different.

  10. It’s much easier to cheat/swing/whatever than it is to put the work into your marriage to make it what you’re fantasizing. It also takes time to transform and develop, so it’s a long project to take on. The easier cheating is, the more tempting it looks.

  11. Changed Man says:

    Athol & Jen,

    Thanks for sharing a difficult time in your life and marriage.

    The one thing that I’ve learned from my personal experiences is that it’s perfectly normal to be attracted to people other than your spouse and nothing to be ashamed about.

    The red pill teaches us that we ignore biological wiring at our peril, but ultimately we choose to act or not act on our instinctive impulses. This is what separates us from lower order mammals… the ability to acknowledge our weaknesses and faults, to guard against them, and to learn from our mistakes, grow from them, and move on.

  12. I agree with the statement that anyone can fall into an affair, if you think you are immune then you are at a higher risk because you are overestimating your ability to be good. I think some of the best marriages are the ones that have survived difficult times and learned from them. Honesty and openness are huge in marriage, they make all the difference.

  13. As Athol has said repeatedly, this is a chemical issue. A Psycho-chemical issue, but there are chemicals involved. Our awareness of that is one of the important and profound things about the Red Pill. It can convince you to fall back in love with your wife and teach you how to go about it.

    I’ve always been loyal, but I’ve always been an outrageous flirt, too, even in front of Mrs. I (although never in an attempt to humiliate her or put her down). That being said, in our long, long history she has never heard of me ONCE making a play for any one of her girlfriends/casual acquaintances through the Matrix. And she never will.

    And to be honest, that’s as much out of laziness as love and devotion. Affairs are hard. Women are crazy. The transitory pleasure of strange poon pales in comparison to the batshit-nuttiness that can infect your life like a bad case of Ybola in a heartbeat. Much easier to take the Red Pill, screw your own wife (she’s paid for, already), and use your big ol’ brain to supply any necessary novelty into the act. If she isn’t doing what you want her to do, figure out what makes her tick and then tickle it. If that’s problematic . . . well, you’ve come to the right place.

    As far as the Palpatine quote . . . he wasn’t wrong. Every Jedi Master needed to experience the power of the Dark Side to understand its perils. It’s a rite of passage. Much like a Mid-Life crisis where the chick with the boobs and the smile who thinks you’re the coolest dude she’s ever met . . . and you wanna get lunch, sometime? You have to be able to stare those boobs in the face like the abyss of the Dark Side and make the decision not to . . . of your own free will. Only then will you be ready for Jedi Mastery.

    “Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue.”

  14. I found this site because I found myself in a situation where I was halfway across the country from my woman, met someone who seemed into me, and realized that all I had to do was say, “Hey, you want to get out of here and grab a drink?” and that would be that. I resisted the temptation, but I also decided that it was in my best interest to make my relationship with my woman so strong that I’d never have to be tempted that way again, because anything I could get from some stranger, I was already getting more and better of at home.

    I still don’t know if things will work out with my woman, but if they don’t, it will be because I let her know what it was about our relationship that wasn’t meeting my needs and gave her a fair chance to turn things around (or else decide that our goals for the relationship were incompatible and she wasn’t interested in meeting my needs). NOT because I took the easy way out (in the short term) and cheated.

    There’s no shame in being tempted. It’s what you do because of it that matters.

  15. “It’s much easier to cheat/swing/whatever than it is to put the work into your marriage to make it what you’re fantasizing. It also takes time to transform and develop, so it’s a long project to take on.”

    Thanks for that, “Over It.” It rings true. The Long Project is worth it, for me. (Mrs. mgwk and I have finally gotten to the point where she can sometimes see benefit and, hesitantly, contribute. The journey will become more rewarding, I think.)

  16. What in the world is “softswing?” You are either touching someone you are not married to or you are not. I have heard some women talk about doing some type of swing thing and it was always clear that they realized their Husband was going to do it with or without them so they joined in to not lose him. Unless, of course, they were quite freaky too.

    What I will never understand about Atheists is where there standards come from and how they decide which ones are good and which ones are bad. I mean it seems like it is a bit of a guessing game. I mean, if there is no God how can their be affairs?

    Softswing is partner swapping but not P-in-V sex. An affair is the same for Atheists as for Christians. It’s when you get emotionally or physically involved with someone other than your spouse to an inappropriate level.

  17. OpenYourMind says:

    The dichotomy that this poster doesn’t understand is that taking the red pill makes a marriage thrive and at the same time does make it harder for a former blue pill guy to respect his wife. I don’t want the red pill at all, but I was force fed it by the fact that my relationship was ending if I didn’t take the red pill. Taking the red pill for me has turned a marriage that was coming to a slow death into a vibrant and thriving marriage. At the same time, I hate the idea of the red pill in many ways, it has made it harder for me to respect my wife. I sometimes hate it that I have to be more Alpha, more this, more that, to keep her attracted to me, but the results speak for themselves.

  18. MyTwoCents says:

    “What I will never understand about Atheists is where there standards come from and how they decide which ones are good and which ones are bad. I mean it seems like it is a bit of a guessing game. I mean, if there is no God how can their be affairs?”

    This stance confuses me. Even if one doesn’t believe in God there is still societal and cultural stigma against affairs. Affairs are not solely defined by religion; heck, there’s even a legal definition. Even if someone had no internal moral compass of any kind (i.e, sociopaths,) they’re still bound and influenced by legal, societal, familial, and cultural standards. It would be extremely difficult, almost impossible, to be completely ignorant of these standards.

  19. @Carlotta:

    Look at it this way: when a person who believes in God takes their marriage vows, they are promising both their partner and God that they will be faithful (as well as whatever else happens to be in the vows). When a person who does not believe in God takes the same vows, they are making the same promise, but only to their partner.

    The promise is the same either way. The non-believer keeps their promise because they do not want to hurt their partner, and also because from a practical standpoint, they know that most affairs are discovered and the long-term consequences of discovery outweigh the short-term fun of an extramarital fling. The believer keeps their promise for all the same reasons, and also because they believe it is divinely enforced and there will be additional spiritual consequences if they do not.

    The believer may have an additional reason to keep their promise not shared by the non-believer, but that does not mean that the reasons shared by both the believer and non-believer are invalid or insufficient to make it a good idea to hold to one’s marriage vows. Cheating is always a bad move whether you’re a believer or not.

    As far as swinging goes, that’s something that non-believers can do as long as it’s something both of them agree to, and obviously believers can’t because it’s not part of the standard marriage agreement which (they believe) is endorsed by God. I still think it’s a bad idea in most cases, though, because of the reality that we’re hardwired to pair-bond with one another and to react with jealousy, often violent jealousy, when we see our pair-bonded mate getting sexual with a rival.

    Now, maybe there are people who’ve figured out how to deal with that, and if so, that’s their own business and more power to them. But I tend to think that it’s not a stable or optimal arrangement for most people, which would explain why most people, including non-believers, don’t tend to enter into agreements that include swinging.

  20. @Carlotta:

    “What I will never understand about Atheists is where there standards come from and how they decide which ones are good and which ones are bad. I mean it seems like it is a bit of a guessing game. I mean, if there is no God how can their be affairs?”

    Moral and ethical standards are not universally derived from deity, or even religion. Consider the Boy Scout Law and Oath, which are almost utterly secular (I take issue with their stances on Atheists and homosexuals myself as poor interpretations of the Law, but . . .) but very clear and concise moral and ethical standards one may aspire to. Indeed, most moral and ethical standards in human history have not been based on anything other than local custom until comparatively recently, with a thin veneer of religious gloss if there happened to be a big one in the neighborhood.

    Since there are no naturally-occurring Atheist cultures it is difficult to ascertain whether or not such cultures would be amoral or immoral compared to religious cultures. But there is certainly no impediment to ethical and moral behavior on the part of Atheists . . . and they do tend to have an easier time with hypocrisy than some of the Name Brand religions.

  21. RedPillWifey says:

    I’d like to have a beer (or wine?) with Jennifer and pick her brain. She must have saintly patience, or intense stubbornness, or both. I’ve been through similar experiences, though not the same, earlier in my marriage, and my jealousy streak was only curbed by intense stubbornness to make it work. But I struggle with letting those early experiences define how I feel now, even though they happened close to 10 years ago. I’d love to hear how she lets it all go. It’s hard for me.

  22. @RedPillWifey: Your jealousy wasn’t curbed by stubbornness. That’s your hamster talking. The jealousy aroused you and attracted you to your husband, whether you want to to admit that or not. Jen is attracted to Athol and motivated to make it work because of the implied threat.

  23. RedPillWifey says:

    @Danceny: I dunno, our lack of sex for many years would beg to differ…

  24. Changed Man says:

    @Ian
    Agreed. Religious institutions don’t have the patent on the ‘Golden Rule’… it’s merely good social engineering that has stood the test of time.

    @Carlotta
    While not all Atheists are Secular Humanists, Secular Humanism is a good place to start to get insight on a bunch of folks who believe that human being can be ethical and moral with religion or God.

  25. I am confused about one aspect of the situation you describe. The swinging and the consideration of the extramarital affairs seem to have taken place fairly early in the marriage. I am wondering how this dovetails with the lovely story of your long-distance courtship and three year wait to consummate your relationship. You and Jennifer were both in love and determined to be together, come hell or high water. So….how, from a psychological or hormonal point of view, did this turn so quickly into wanting to explore other relationships? The sweet seems to have soon turned sour before becoming sweet again. I hope the question is not too personal.

  26. I'm a man says:

    “What I will never understand about Atheists is where there standards come from and how they decide which ones are good and which ones are bad.”
    @Carlotta – that’s a easy question to answer: Cause and effect! Athol is simply talking about cause and effect here.

  27. @Polly – You’re assuming during our three year courtship I wasn’t utterly miserable about not having a sex partner. The first year was okay, the second year was bad, the third was utterly horrible.

    I’ve always had a high sex drive and I find myself getting attached to women quickly. The swinging was just a way to express my high sex drive without going behind Jennifer’s back and cheating on her. I wanted multiple sex partners, but I also wanted to not lie.

    Timing is to do with my stopping being a Christian and becoming an Atheist. That’s about it.

    I wouldn’r describe it as sweet -sour – sweet.

  28. It could be that I can’t understand what you experienced because I am a woman and one who is inclined to see life through the lenses of romance and idealism. I think I do remember you mentioning how unhappy you were for a couple of years while you were waiting for you and Jennifer to be together but that was actually kind of my point. Once you were together and you had daily access to sex with a person you loved, you would have had the outlet that you had been waiting for. Did you, or do swingers in general, feel that swinging enhances, rather than detracts from, the primary relationship? In your research, have you come across couples where it did better their relationship?

  29. Then you are in favor of a life of celibacy and avoidance of emotional entanglements? A life seeking to avoid passion? The Jedi were wrong about a great many things…

    The Jedis are monks so for them this was the lifestyle that better suited. I agree that the Jedis made a lot of mistakes but just because they were wrong doesn’t make the opposite position right by default. Did Vader and the Emperor did any better embracing the opposition?

  30. Anacaona – you’re missing the point completely. Both Jedi and Sith have partial understandings of the Force. There really isn’t a dark and a light side to the Force. There is simply the Force and the dualistic nature of people.

  31. This was very painful for me to read. I know that a lot of people appreciate the honesty, but for me it was too much. I would rather just have known “I did some things I’m not proud of early in my marriage, and now I’m working to be a better husband,” rather than “I involved my very young and inexperienced wife in swinging, then was angry for 10 years because she didn’t want to do it any more.” That really sort of burst a bubble for me, especially coming so soon after, as another commenter said, you and Jennifer were finally able to be together after a long and trying courtship.

    If I sugarcoat things people assume I did far worse wrong and/or think I’m a liar.

  32. Polly – The issue for myself is I have a very high libido and a craving for a wide variety of sexual stimulation. I thought getting married would “cure” that. It has to a large degree, but there’s still a libido mismatch between myself and Jennifer. We are better at balancing that now.

    Swingers do believe that swinging is a safe and erotic addition to their marriage and makes their marriage better. Though they also are full of caution that it is not for everyone and swinging won’t save a bad marriage, but will instead hasten it’s end. Personally I think there is a risk in swinging that it can tun into sanctioned trial affairs and marriages can end that way.

  33. @ChangedMan
    Secular Humanism is not a very good example, since if you look at what it finds wrong, it is easy to tell which branch of Christianity it comes from. There are many taboos there which only some Christian groups have adopted. It does take several generations for a new belief system to evolve.

  34. @Danceny – Regarding jealousy; it’s not the same as ‘pre-selection’. For me, jealousy does not attract me to my husband, it pushes me away from him. The difference is in his behaviour.
    If a woman comes onto my husband and he keeps his distance (doesn’t encourage) and lets her know he’s not interested – that’s pre-selection and attracts me to him. She wants him, but he’s got someone better: me. And his behaviour lets her know that. This also keeps me above her in the Female Social Matrix ie: the high value man chooses me, not her.
    If however, he reciprocates, flirts, leads her on, or acts like he is interested – making her think she actually has a chance – that brings out my jealousy and I feel rejected by him, disrepected, ugly, and I want to get away from him before he hurts me further. He is showing the woman that I am not important to him, that I don’t meet his needs and she has a chance with him. Not only does it make me feel like I’m not enough for him, it lowers me in the Female Social Matrix – he puts that other woman above me and she knows that. (A woman who knows she could steal a womans husband (even if she doesn’t act on it) climbs above the married woman in the Female Social Matrix: see The Red Pill Room; The Femal Social Matrix) It’s humiliating.

    In the latter situation it takes will power/stubborness to push those feelings of rejection aside and try to believe that he wasn’t rejecting me and also to get over that the other woman thinks she is above me (thanks to him). But it cuts deep and leaves scars. Those scars never go away.

  35. RedPillWifey says:

    Well freakin said, girl4.

  36. Very well said, Girl4. I concur.

  37. Rowinghope says:

    It seems to me that Athol’s progression is what all men who take the red pill go through. First, one is clueless and having sex is haphazard and inadvertent success. Second, one realizes there is some pattern occurring and you begin to seek out and learn game. At this point, if married, the man can do one of three things…cheat, get divorced, or game his wife. It is not a straight forward answer as to which path one takes. The knowledge of how to seduce women is powerful knowledge and can cause a person to do things they may never have done. It strikes me as foolish that people would judge anyone in this area. I know several people who would be considered “affair proof” and who have had affairs simply because they met the other man/woman at just the right (or wrong) time. This isn’t to absolve them of guilt but to point out that it can happen to anyone, even the people who you least expect.

    When I first learned game, it was such a boost to my ego that I did some things I’m not proud of because at the time it made me feel more “manly.” It cost me a lot in the long run and now I would never do that again to my second wife. However, my marriage is now much better because I know what to do and what not to do. I think it takes a big man (or woman) to admit his mistakes in a public forum at the same time as not only advocating against cheating but helping other people improve their relationships and hopefully avoid the same mistakes. I’m not Christian but “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

    And now that I already wrote all that. I think what is really being talked about is not just “game” but how to be respectful to yourself and in doing so be respectful to your spouse.

  38. girl4 Great insight. Absolutely true.

  39. Angeline says:

    @OpenYourMind said: “Taking the red pill for me has turned a marriage that was coming to a slow death into a vibrant and thriving marriage. At the same time, I hate the idea of the red pill in many ways, it has made it harder for me to respect my wife. I sometimes hate it that I have to be more Alpha, more this, more that, to keep her attracted to me, but the results speak for themselves.”

    And she has to – push away the cupcake, even though cupcakes are *delicious*! to keep her figure near or at something you like to look at. She needs to be open to sex at any given time, even though her default mode is not as sexual, or even “off”. She has to futz with long hair for an extra 30 minutes a day, she has to wear sexy clothes and heels. She has to get over the idea that you should love her *as she is*, sweatpants, short hair, cupcakes and all, and constantly work to keep your interest and passion up, more this, more that, to keep you attracted to her. She has to swallow the disrespect that she’s not valued as much, regardless of what her friends tell her are her stellar personal qualities – based on how her ass looks or whether she gives good BJ’s. Perhaps she feels less respect for him that wearing a thong is more interesting to him than the brilliant thing she did at work. The Red Pill does not taste like wine and chocolates for women, either.

    The fact is, we all have to keep working at it to be interesting to our partner. This was old news in our grandparents’ day. Somewhere along the 60′s and 70′s people got the idea that because of how amazing and unique and enlightened we all were, we could throw out eons of experience and biology and pretend that good intentions were enough. That we could just coast into old age, once we got married.

    Ironic choice of name.

  40. Angeline says:

    @Athol and Jen – thank you for sharing the not so pretty bits as well as the successes. Your advice for fixing marriages on the rocks wouldn’t be as authentic, if you’d never navigated any. It helps to know you’ve faced down some of the exact same issues we’ve faced. I feel a lot better for having balked at this particular theory on spicing up a marriage.

  41. Girl4. A-men!!!!! I have been struggling to communicate this for the past year. I endured that second scenario for 16 years. I nearly died. Literally. I can’t thank you enough for putting words to this for me. I need the words to heal. And for someone else to understand.

    Thank you.

  42. Eric Ventura says:

    Hell of a response to @openyourmind Angeline. 100% Truth.

  43. Yawn. Sorry dozed off. What happened? We still talking about tits? Yes? No? TITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What?

    Oh. This stuff again. Old news noobs. Read the archives.

    Someone mentioned that Jennifer has no respect for herself? Really. That’s pretty passive aggressive of you there Star Violet. Tell us how ya really feel. Unless any of us have developed ESP (I have) you only know as much about these two people as they choose to share with you. I appreciate the candor even if I don’t need it spelled out, cuz you know, my ESP.

    TITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love them. Muwah! Big kiss to all your tits! Lolz.

  44. Athol
    I might be missing the point, but like I said I resent the quote out of the full picture of who is saying it and how his ruling ended up in the Star Wars universe. If you had placed this quote and then something from Yoda and added that both have half truths that would had been different. Also I’m a nerd over thinking stuff comes with the badge ;)

  45. Anacaona – Maybe Obi-Wan lying to Luke about what happened to his father would have been better? “What I told you was true… from a certain point of view.”

  46. Gabrielle says:

    Athol, when I said I didn’t realize Jen was in on the act I meant I didn’t realize she was into swinging. That opened the door to other things. We all make choices and suffer the effects. I went into reading your blog thinking that Jen was a practicing Christian. As much as that sounds like a insult, I do not mean it to be. I simple mean that I thought she would not have been into sharing her husband with someone else. It is my fault for having preconceived ideas of what Christiare norms are.

    Girl4, awesome comment. My husband and I both think it is disrespectful to flirt or allow someone to flirt with you. Eyes only for each other and all that jazz.

    Cant remember who said it but wanted to comment about marriage origins. For what it is worth; if someone believes in the Bible then yes, they most likely do believe marriage, creeds, culture, etc started with the Word of God. Marriage is a representation of Christ and the Church. Humans are so wicked that no one would have ever thought about marriage and honestly, having “game” is proof of this. In reading the blogs for the time I have the common theme is to put your needs before your spouse, be inconsiderate about the spouse (usually the wife) or if you are not married then to have as many conquest as possible all the while hoping for the virgin when or if you marry. (because the women you were sleeping with are all sluts now.) I realized that you can not combine game and faith very well. The common theme for Christinity is to put your spouse first. The sad thing is I stumbled on man blogs because I was looking up feminisim and how it hurts marriages so I could do a study with my daughters. I fear for the future of America if all we have is a bunch of men and women who don’t know how to compromise and have give and take in marriage.

  47. I'm a man says:

    @Gabrielle – Based on your comments:
    “Humans are so wicked ”
    ” if you are not married then to have as many conquest as possible all the while hoping for the virgin when or if you marry. (because the women you were sleeping with are all sluts now.)”

    I’m soooo so sorry that your life experience has given you such a negative and twisted world view. I cannot imagine the emotional scars you must carry to see your fellow humans as wicked, and to describe men on these conquests just seems bizarre to me. Speaking for myself I’ve never given another’s virginity much thought.
    ….your ideas are fucking batshit crazy! Fear for your daughters not America.

  48. @girl4

    “If however, he reciprocates, flirts, leads her on, or acts like he is interested – making her think she actually has a chance – that brings out my jealousy and I feel rejected by him, disrepected, ugly, and I want to get away from him before he hurts me further. He is showing the woman that I am not important to him, that I don’t meet his needs and she has a chance with him. Not only does it make me feel like I’m not enough for him, it lowers me in the Female Social Matrix – he puts that other woman above me and she knows that. (A woman who knows she could steal a womans husband (even if she doesn’t act on it) climbs above the married woman in the Female Social Matrix: see The Red Pill Room; The Femal Social Matrix) It’s humiliating.”

    My ex used to give me this fitness test all the time and I fell for it in the beginning. The problem is, following it to its logical conclusion, I would have had to stop being pleasant to women on the off chance that she would “feel” I was reciprocating or flirting or being disrespectful. There are men out there that do not even look at other women for fear of their wives getting upset. How much pre-selection and attraction do you think is happening in those relationships? Of course, there are degrees to the flirting, but you need to take a close look at why you are feeling the way you do. Maybe you are feeling insecure in the relationship because you know that you are making it easy for him to trade up because you aren’t doing the work you need to do to keep him attracted. You need to get to a point where you aren’t afraid of a little competition.

    Part of the issue for my ex was that her low self-esteem led her to “feel rejected” whereas I had made it clear that I wanted to be with her by marrying her and even by being out with her in the first place. In other words, she wanted to go with her feelings of insecurity and inferiority in the woman/woman competition instead of what her logic told her. After all, if I was going to have an affair, I wouldn’t try picking up the woman in front of her, would I? If she didn’t feel worthy of me, then she needed to step up her girl game.

    The other part of the issue is that men and women have different instinctive attraction behaviours. Men are overt and women are covert when dealing with interest from others (along the lines of men approach and women discreetly signal that they want to be approached). So what you feel as disrespect (because it would be if you did it) may actually be respect for you on his part. I am talking from my experience and so this may not apply to all men. I do believe it belongs in the same framework as Athol’s soft swinging (to have multiple sexual partners without cheating on Jennifer) as I could totally relate to how he felt there.

    I was overt in my flirting. I really only flirted with waitresses in her presence because it was more honest and obviously the women knew I wasn’t seriously flirting in front of my wife (beta?). However, even in my blue pill days I recognized her increased attraction even as she was giving me hell about it and so I continued to do it (alpha). Flirting when my wife wasn’t there could lead the other woman to think that I was serious and give her the idea that she had more value that my wife, so I rarely did it as it felt more disrespectful.

    My ex flirted, but it was covert. In fact, it came out during our separation talks that she was always flirting with guys, but only when I wasn’t around. With that knowledge, I now know why there would be a lot of times where I would come back to her at a party or from the other end of the store and she’d be standing there with a guy. There would be this atmosphere that they’d just shared a secret. It would cause a feeling of unease and insecurity. I could have gone with that feeling and become controlling and never let her out of my sight, but I chose to not let that feeling of insecurity rule me. She said and felt that hiding her flirting and that she could be attracted to other men was more respectful to me, but what she was really doing was hiding her hypergamy from me so she could appear virtuous and keep me feeling secure.

    In the end, my flirting wasn’t really the problem, because she realized she liked the preselection. She just thought that doing it in front of her was disrespectful, whereas I thought doing it in front of her was more respectful. I kept doing what I thought was best for my relationship and was rewarded for it with the benefits of her competition with the other women. As far as her flirting went, I would much rather have known she was flirting with guys so that I could realize that I had to up my game, and take the red pill sooner.

    TL;DR: You are projecting your behaviours and feelings onto him. A woman’s flirting is usually covert so they don’t tip their hand to their current guy. If a woman’s flirting is overt, it is a huge shit test and disrespectful and she is signaling that she is already on her way out of the relationship unless her guy turns it around. So when your husband flirts in front of you, you think it means the same thing as it would if you were doing it in front of him.

    Him flirting in front of you is an unconscious form of peacocking for your benefit. Be glad that he feels secure and comfortable enough with you to do this. If he was seriously trying to find a woman to cheat with, he knows his chances are better if you aren’t around and so he won’t be doing it in your presence.

  49. Gabrielle,
    If an alien who had never heard of marriage arrived in the Western hemisphere and gathered data, it might think that marriage was simply a government-sponsored program to grant certain privileges and benefits. But marriage, if defined as a lifelong, monogamous pair-bond, is something that a number of species of animals engage in. Humans, I think, would have (and most likely did) arrange themselves according to that plan through following their instinct alone, just as some animals (eg. gibbons) do.

  50. Gabrielle says:

    Nah, my daughters are good. My almost 22 year old has a smart mind and values herself. She looks forward to marriage because she sees how much fun her father and I have as a couple.

    You call my thoughts batshit? I believe the Bible and the Bible says men are wicked from the womb (as in humans just to be clear). Yeah, I’ll go with the One that made me and not what a bunch of people who think that it is good to kiss someone who is not your spouse or sleeps with women on a never ending merry go round. Have some respect for yourselves. Game is just a masculine form of feminisim. Focuses on one gender while crapping on the other. Way to go there.

  51. Anacaona – Maybe Obi-Wan lying to Luke about what happened to his father would have been better? “What I told you was true… from a certain point of view.”

    Mmmm posibly, That quote has a balanced doses of truth, BS and ambiguity in it, like the whole Star Wars series! :D . Sorry for focusing in this particular part so much I should had try to attack your marriage and choices on the PAST, regardless of how happy and in sync with your wife you are NOW, like normal people do…bad nerd, bad nerd. :D

  52. @Anacaona – I’m enjoying playing with you. :-)

    In any case, the future of the Jedi Order involved a far more liberal approach to relationships and exploration of the dark side powers. Balance. Always balance.

  53. @Draggin – I appreciate your perspective.
    I have experienced both my husband flirting in front of me (not within my hearing, but I can tell the difference in his body language when he is ‘flirting’ and when he is just talking with a woman) and behind my back (actively hiding it). They both made me feel the same way – the hidden one has been especially painful. Not only because he lied to me, but because my girl game was as good as I could get it, yet he still did it. It’s not a fitness test in my case. I am an absolute mess trying to come to grips with it as he abused my trust.

    “Flirting when my wife wasn’t there could lead the other woman to think that I was serious and give her the idea that she had more value that my wife, so I rarely did it as it felt more disrespectful.”
    This is exactly what I’m talking about.

    He has been cocky/funny/teasing to women in front of me many times, making them smile etc – there is no sexual undercurrent in this even though it would probably be classed as ‘flirting’. I don’t consider it flirting, I consider it ‘banter’. This is a form of pre-selection. The woman is enjoying his attention and I’m enjoying (with pride) how witty he is etc – obviously it’s not ‘personal’ to him and it is not a threat to my ‘value’. I’m not talking about that type of open interaction.
    I’m talking about flirting in private with a woman (who I KNOW was getting attached to him by her behaviour toward me) . He thought it was harmless. I did not.
    My post was to explain what goes through a wifes head when she believes her husband is purposely showing sexual interest in another woman or purposely refraining from preventing the other woman from reading into it more than he intends. I don’t believe men are so stupid to not realise that when a woman is lapping up his every personal comment to her and asking for more on a regular basis, then she’s reading too much into it.
    The hamster part or maybe projection, is thinking that it is a rejection of me – it may not be a rejection, but it sure as hell feels like it. And it’s very hard to push that thought and feeling aside.
    So I see the point you made. You are talking more about superficial banter, I think. I am talking about more serious flirting that I felt was a direct threat to my marriage and lowered my value.

  54. @Anacaona – I’m enjoying playing with you.

    Good thing we both talk Klingon :D

    In any case, the future of the Jedi Order involved a far more liberal approach to relationships and exploration of the dark side powers. Balance. Always balance.

    True, that unraveled in the last (really first) trilogy, bringing balance to the force meant that both sides were wrong in their own way. Sadly the Star Wars novels ruined it all. I hope you never read them, they just destroyed the whole concept for the sake of DRAMA!, IMO.

  55. RedPillNewb says:

    I don’t believe men are so stupid to not realise that when a woman is lapping up his every personal comment to her and asking for more on a regular basis, then she’s reading too much into it.

    A man may, on the other hand, be too stupid to realize that a woman is in fact lapping up his every personal comment to her and asking for more on a regular basis. I know I am.

    My wife says I’m an incorrigible flirt, and I don’t really know I’m doing it. It’s not on purpose. And it might be classified as “banter” in your taxonomy; it’s not obvious to me that anyone is getting the wrong idea (but then again, nothing is obvious to me). But it’s still unintentional and I don’t know it’s happening. I’m working on being more aware.

  56. @girl4

    I think your definitions are wrong and is causing a problem in communicating your ideas effectively. I double checked my definitions and they align with mainstream society’s definitions as outlined in http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary. I have given the relevant definitions below.

    Flirt: 2a : to behave amorously without serious intent Synonyms: coquet (or coquette), dally, frivol, mess around, toy, trifle

    Banter : 1: to speak to or address in a witty and teasing manner Synonyms: joke, chaff, fool, fun, gag, jape, jest, jive, jolly, josh, kid, quip, wisecrack, yuk

    Your husband is FLIRTING with women if he is acting in a way that he would not act with another man i.e. amorously. Cocky/funny/teasing pretty much speaks to that, as it is high on the PUA required behaviour list.

    Your husband is BANTERING with women if he would say the same things to a guy or is making fun of someone being a dumbass or kidding with her the way he would with the guys in the locker room.

    “He has been cocky/funny/teasing to women in front of me many times, making them smile etc – there is no sexual undercurrent in this even though it would probably be classed as ‘flirting’. I don’t consider it flirting, I consider it ‘banter’. This is a form of pre-selection. The woman is enjoying his attention and I’m enjoying (with pride) how witty he is etc – obviously it’s not ‘personal’ to him and it is not a threat to my ‘value’. I’m not talking about that type of open interaction.”

    What you are describing here is flirting. I’d bet that your husband would also describe it as flirting to his friends, even if he doesn’t dare admit it to you. You admit that other people would classify it as flirting and that you recognize that the woman enjoys the attention. Also, there is always a sexual undercurrent if either person might potentially be attractive to the other. Sexual undercurrent occurs even with only eye contact. Think back to the last time you met eyes with a man you just met. What did you feel? You may not be aware of it yet, but you were assessing him in a sexual context, and if you held the eye contact for any length of time, you were flirting with him.

    You have shown that you do like your husband flirting but have found a workaround where you can enjoy it without admitting to it by calling it something different. You admit that you like the way he “banters” with women and that you enjoy the pre-selection. In reality what you call bantering = flirting. Therefore you enjoy your husband flirting with women. It may be that you want to call it bantering because it makes you feel safer. That way you don’t need to deal with your (and society’s) feelings around the word flirting, because society tells you to never admit that you like it when your husband flirts.

    You are simply perpetuating the falsehoods that keep people from acting in ways that are best for their relationships. Look at all the women that were agreeing with your mainstream “women don’t like husbands that flirt” message that you wrote. How many of them realize that what you said and what you feel are two different things? How much chance does the ordinary guy have if he follows your advice?

  57. @Draggin – The manosphere call it ALL flirting. The harmless/preselection style is ‘flirting’. The innapropriate or instill dread/hurtful type is ‘flirting’.
    I can understand it appears contradictory to men when a woman says she doesn’t like her husband to flirt (hurtfully), but the manoshpere thinks – yes you do like flirting (pre-selection style). It’s all called the same thing, but they are not talking about the same thing.
    You are saying that my internal definition is wrong. If ‘flirting’ is all good, and women like it – what is the name for the hurtful interaction of a man chatting up a women inappropriately at the expense of his wife’s feelings? If calling that ‘flirting’ is wrong of me – what am I supposed to call it?

  58. @girl4: “You are saying that my internal definition is wrong. If ‘flirting’ is all good, and women like it – what is the name for the hurtful interaction of a man chatting up a women inappropriately at the expense of his wife’s feelings? If calling that ‘flirting’ is wrong of me – what am I supposed to call it?”

    My point was that you cannot arbitrarily change language to suit yourself and to reflect the way you feel. Words have specific meanings and you have to use them accordingly. For example, you threw out a blanket statement that essentially said that any and all forms of flirting is bad and disrespectful. You then admitted that there IS good flirting but you decided to call it something else. However, if you had simply said “I do enjoy when my husband does the harmless preselection stage of flirting, but not when he escalates to dirty talk with her” then your message would have been much more clear and educational to everyone. Since your internal definition of flirting did not match up with everyone else’s internal definition, you initially either misrepresented yourself or were deliberately trying to reinforce the message that all taken men should stop all flirting (of any kind). This was a big sticking point in my marriage and so I choose to address it. It has helped me to clarify it in my mind and hopefully for anyone else unfortunate enough to read this thread.

    “The manosphere call it ALL flirting. The harmless/preselection style is ‘flirting’. The innapropriate or instill dread/hurtful type is ‘flirting’.”

    You are conflating the implementation of the flirting with the intent of the flirting. You recognized that there are different levels or stages of implementing the flirting, which include your “harmless/preselection” style and the “harmful” flirting. You did say you appreciate your husband flirting in the initial stages with women as a pre-selection signal, so we agree that you do actually like your husband flirting. You do have a boundary that you don’t like him to cross, which is understandable. Define that boundary and maybe we can come up with a name for it. I’m going to suggest that it is when they start touching each other (kino in PUA lingo). It may be when it escalates to sex talk. The level of flirting that causes discomfort will vary from couple to couple.

    Intent of the flirting is another thing altogether. Most men here are trying to learn to run attraction game to have their wives bond to them in a passionate loving way for the long term enhancement of their relationships. The message we were discussing is that harmless flirting (without the end goal of seduction of the other woman) is good for that and we now know that you agree, despite what you said earlier. Flirting to instill dread is part of dark game and is used primarily to solidify dominance and power and fear of loss in a relationship, usually with short term goals in mind. It wouldn’t be advocated in a marriage unless absolutely necessary, like trying to wake up a walking out spouse to the reality of what they are about to throw away. Also, flirting with the intent to seduce the other woman is not acceptable.

    It all still comes down to the fact that men need to flirt with women (in a harmless way) to demonstrate preselection and attract his wife whether or not his wife says she dislikes it or otherwise shit tests him about it.

    RE: Jealousy: One thing that you may want to explore is what the following means to you: Your husband is harmlessly flirting with no intent of seduction, but you feel that the other woman thinks he is actually trying to seduce her. Is it truly his fault that she misread the signals or is simply hoping for more, especially if he doesn’t have the intuition to read her signals correctly? What does it matter to you what she thinks when you know he will be loyal to you? If that makes you jealous, why does what she think have more power than what you know? Answering this may help you find the root of your jealousy and help you deal with portions of it. You do have the ability to decide how much emotional power you give to other people.

  59. @Draggin’, I really like and appreciate your analysis here. It clarified a few things in my mind. I especially liked the part about eyes meeting vs. eyes holding for a few seconds. Good stuff.

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