The End of Game is Love

Reader:  Hello, I like reading your blog and have been for over a year now. I think game is important for women who were not born beautiful. I am a woman and I do my best to be as hot as I can be. Sometimes I have to wonder are men capable of love? All I hear from them online is how they used this girl or this girl. Is love just that, an illusion women create to make life more bearable ? The red pill is bitter.

Is Love real? Or is just a game of who is more powerful?

Athol:  Love is real, men feel just as strongly as women do. By and large the angry men in the Manosphere are angry because the bottom line after the divorce / cheating / family court / drama is that someone they loved, didn’t love them back.

The men deciding to use women typically have some history of being used by women themselves. For the overwhelming majority of men, being a heartless bastard isn’t a default setting. For the overwhelming majority of women being a soulless screechtard isn’t a factory setting either. Life is rough and tumble and we all get hurt at some point. Some of us hold on to it longer than is helpful. Some people take an arrow to the knee and never walk right again.

If you love someone who doesn’t love you, it’s a horrible state to be in, so it makes sense to avoid it. However that same avoidance can create a pattern where you avoid connecting to people who actually do or might genuinely love you. Once you can find someone you love, that also loves you, it’s really nice.

I think you have to see the Manosphere as a cross between an Emergency Room and a Mixed Martial Arts Gym . The emergency room part is where men often arrive via carnage and grief, with the primary goal of stabilizing them and getting them through the next month or two without doing something stupid or highly unproductive. The MMA Gym part is where guy learn the skills of offense and defense, and what to do when the fight goes to the ground. The ER and the MMA Gym aren’t typically places where you give or receive a lot of lovey-dovey feelings.

So yes love is real, but so is power. Trying to love without personal power is a ticket to hell.

When it comes down to it, almost all men come to the point of learning Game, simply for the hope of finding a woman who loves them and wants them. Or keeping the woman they love. So you can question whether or not the end justifies the means, because sometimes the means is rather dark in nature. But the end of Game is love.


  1. Well said Athol. Well said.

  2. OMG! I can’t believe my eyes. We’re talking about LOVE! That takes guts. Ok, Ok. I shall share. So there’s the quote about how love is not looking adoringly into each other’s eyes, but looking together in the same direction. Seems to go kinda nicely with the C/FO metaphor, no? both looking out from the ship together?

    I still can’t believe we ‘re getting romantic up in here. Awesome.

    I have to say I am partial to the Sheryl Crow cover though :)

  3. Athol describes it well, as someone who can see it from the opposite side of the shore.

    As a recovering Nice Guy at 28 who is finally starting to learn some Game after recently taking the Red Pill, I can tell you right now that I don’t have much love to give towards women. I emptied my tank being Nice in my college years and through my mid-20s with serial Oneitis and getting nothing to show for it. (Granted, knowing what I know now, it makes total sense, but that doesn’t take away much of the sting).
    Maybe in a few years that tank will refill itself. Or maybe it won’t, and I’ll decide that living with something that is contiuously, subconciously angling for my demise isn’t worth it. Only time and Game will tell.

  4. It helps to not blame women you may date/have sex with for the false information (Blue Pill) you were given. If you want to blame any women, blame your mother/aunts/sisters/teachers and other women (and men!) who played a part in your upbringing and giving you the wrong ideas about how to play the dating game. For that matter, blame popular society and media for perpetuating those ideas. And try to remember that most women your age were also given their own version of the Blue Pill.

    Or even better, don’t waste energy on blame. Anger is a perfectly natural reaction to what you’ve been learning, but don’t let it define your future relationships with the opposite sex. Easier said than done, I know, but many men before you have done it, often while married, and managed to stay married, even more happily than before.

  5. Thank you, Badger. I needed to hear that, too.

  6. RedPillAwakening says:

    Brilliantly articulated post. Thanks Athol.

    @The MacNut, “It helps to not blame women you may date/have sex with for the false information (Blue Pill) you were given. If you want to blame any women, blame your mother/aunts/sisters/teachers and other women (and men!) who played a part in your upbringing and giving you the wrong ideas about how to play the dating game. For that matter, blame popular society and media for perpetuating those ideas. And try to remember that most women your age were also given their own version of the Blue Pill.” THIS.

    It’s natural to be angry and to blame others for lying to you about the realities of human nature, especially when you could have avoided personal pain if you hadn’t been told those pretty lies that you wanted so badly to believe. It is however not productive, and I am fighting it every day. I think time will heal those wounds, as the bitter memories fade. I think.

  7. @The Macnut
    I do agree with properly placing blame and for the most part, that’s where I have placed it (mom, church, mentors). But that doesn’t change the fact that I emptied my “Love tank” in vain.
    For right now, I have no interest in trying to quell the bitterness and anger inside me, because like most things, it is best left to work its way out naturally rather than through superficial means or bottling it up. I haven’t been through a divorce or anything of soul-trying magnitude, so the built-up pressure won’t send shrapnel to injure bystanders at 1000yards.
    The best way to get over a flu is to chug water, stack up blankets and sweat it out until the fever breaks. Taking tons of meds (other heavy doses of the Red Pill) and trying to keep up as normal will only make things worse.

  8. The Dude says:

    There’s no point in being mad with past relationships, the opposite sex, or your actions that happened. You only did what you did either as a result of being fed by brainwashing or what you thought was the right thing to do. The only time to be mad is if you took the red pill but still do the stuff that got you in trouble in the first place.

    I can say since I took the red pill I always have a clue of what is going on with the women I’m involved with. In fact…taking the red pill has given me a clue of what’s going on in general with the world. I still have some imperfections that I’m working on (like everybody else) but it’s better to be in the know and correct those mistakes than to stay in the fog.

  9. The Dude says:

    In fact looking back on how I acted…I would have dumped me too. So that’s why I harbor no resentment.

  10. whatmeworry says:

    After taking an arrow to the knee, it’s better to just steal the sweet rolls.

  11. Highlander says:

    Looking back at it all I really don’t know what to think anymore, I went red pill from 1984-87 before there even was such a notion, after watching “Love” disappear time after time like someone flicking a light switch in my relationships. With very few exceptions the women I was involved with just seemed to jump right into a new life, obviously having a preplanned exit. Me, well I’d struggle for over a year, sometimes two before I could get out there again., so yes men are capable of love and great devotion.

    It makes one bitter toward women when you go through this, the “pump and dump guys” are nearly always not Alphas, just damaged guys who’ve adopted a defense mechanism that allows at least some of men’s basic needs be met ( sex) without the threat of more emotional damage. They don’t really become Alpha until they gain back their self esteem and some control of their lives, getting past the bitterness is part of it. Going red pill for most is in a lot of way just a band aid /triage, a way of finding a rational reason for what you’ve been through until you can find your own path and rebuild.

    Sadly though big chunks of a man’s ability to trust and let a woman “All the way in” again dies after taking the red pill and I don’t think it ever all comes back. Some of us at mid life have had the deepest secrets of the Red Pill revealed. The worst being that what we thought was 20+ years of “Love” could have been just a perfect balance of hormones that when tipped by even just a change of a birth control prescription or the onset of menopause can vanish very quickly.

  12. I'm a man says:

    Maybe the reader should shutdown the computer and go interact with men in the real world. Stop giving so much attention to what people say (especially online) and pay attention to how people act. If you want love, go interact with one of the 3 billion men that walk this planet. Drop your Barbie and Ken fantasy of love and be caring, open and giving to the men you meet. Set reasonable boundaries so you wont be mistreated and know men have no mind reading abilities at all! Do this and you should have no problem finding love.

  13. I think this question is closer to what I was trying to get at in this thread in the forums:

    So much of single Game is written from such a bitter, angry place, with the stated goal of getting into bed with as many women as possible as fast as possible while skipping as much of the emotional baggage as possible. I’ve got plenty of bitterness and anger to work through my own self, without feeding myself more of it. And if, as seems likely, I’m going to find myself back on the dating market within the next year, I’d really like to find a place I could learn more dating-focused Game without the bitterness and without having to constantly make mental conversions between the stated goal of “bang lots of women” to my own goal of “find love and companionship (including sex, of course) and ultimately another LTR and ultimately after that, the mother of my children.”

    I mean, I know there’s a lot of overlap there, it’s just frustrating to read a lot of this PUA stuff and having to constantly think, “Okay, that sounds like a great way to shorten the time between meeting and boning if that’s what you’re after, but personally, I’d rather look for ways to figure out if she’s someone I want to spend much more time with before worrying about boning at all.”

    Oh, well. If I have to figure it out myself, maybe if I manage to get good at it there’s a niche for me to do some writing on the subject my own self. (-:

  14. Of course men can — and do — love. But it’s a feminine conceit that all women (or men, for that matter) are entitled to love. Love is a prize that must be earned with hard work, dedication, devotion, and a lot of luck. Love is an art. Love is what is at the end of desire, a vintage so rare most will never taste it properly. Infatuation can happen in a moment. Love takes years.

    What is “Love” anyway? Love is when your happiness is dependent upon someone else’s happiness. If Mrs. Ironwood isn’t happy, I ain’t happy. If I’m not happy, she’s not happy. In either case, our long history and many mistakes along the way have taught us (more or less) what to do when the other person isn’t happy . . . and how to celebrate and enjoy it when the other person is happy. It’s axiomatic that you can’t have a happy marriage unless both husband and wife are happy. Which is why the “I’m not haaaaaaapy” EPL divorce speech is particularly painful to husbands who have, in good faith, moved heaven and earth to try to make their wives happy (without realizing, of course, just what they had to do to accomplish it).

    In Re: PUA Game: think of this as Basic Game, the Game necessary for Pursuit and Seduction. Like any tool, it can be used to bounce from vagina to vagina, or it can be used as a tool to hunt for the future mother of your children. MMSL is Advanced Game, or Married Game. It’s far, far more sophisticated and complex than PUA or Single Game. But don’t blame the PUA Puerarchs for their bed-hopping ways: they do the rest of you would-be Wolf Alphas a screening mechanism to weed out the unworthy women for you.

    In Re: Angry Men: They have every right to be angry. And in the ER section of the Manosphere, expressing that anger is a valuable part of getting motivated toward the MAP, over here in the Dojo. But sometimes you have to have that anger for motivation . . . ’cause self-pity never motivated anyone to do a thousand crunches in one workout.

  15. @The dude
    “In fact looking back on how I acted…I would have dumped me too. ”

    Yeah, I know the feeling. But still.. wouldn’t it be nice to know some things twenty years ago?

    I am definetely going to teach both my son and daughter about what I’ve learned. If my father would tell me more about woman, I would avoid so much anger and bitterness and I wouldn’t lose several years of my life.

  16. Highlander says:

    “In Re: Angry Men: They have every right to be angry. And in the ER section of the Manosphere, expressing that anger is a valuable part of getting motivated toward the MAP, over here in the Dojo. But sometimes you have to have that anger for motivation . . . ’cause self-pity never motivated anyone to do a thousand crunches in one workout.”

    Right on Ian, the anger needs to be focused on change and self improvement, if for nothing else the Maxim,
    “Living well is the best revenge” as a start ;~)

  17. cynical optimist says:

    your damn right we angry, the amount of blood, sweat and tears that any young red pill man will go through to achieve his goals be it physical, academic, business, relationship etc then why o why after all that work would you take on a woman who risks saying “I’m just not happppyyyyyyy” MGTOW simple as that. I dont see any woman putting in the level of work and dedication required to get with a red pill man for future endeavours. There are lots of woman i know who are 29/30/31 who think an incredible husband is going to parachute into their driveway when they feel ready to settle down haha. Meat market economics cant have your cake and eat it. I’ll be poolside watching the implosion

  18. RedPillNewb says:

    Which is why the “I’m not haaaaaaapy” EPL divorce speech is particularly painful to husbands who have, in good faith, moved heaven and earth to try to make their wives happy…

    All while their wives refused to do something simple that would have made their husbands happy.

  19. cynical optimist says:


    I recently got “i’m not happpppyyyyyyyied” and im am bloody angry. I’m 6’1 200lbs, BA (hons) MBA, weight lift, martial arts, good job, soon to start my own business, been red pill aware for 5 years. I gave it everything i had and what did i get in return but a shit attitude and sex twice a month. In hindsight i should have walked from that relationship but i guess when you come from a catholic family you tend to try and stick it out. The girl in question stayed with an abuser for ten years who cheated on her and dumped her on valentines day. Tattoo’s and criminal record might have been a better approach.

  20. Version3.0 says:

    I’m wondering why angry posters above would be here anyway, and not just exclusively with the Roissy crowd. If you’re not looking for a LTR, much of MMSL would be redundant or a waste of time, no? Can someone enlighten me?

  21. RedPillNewb says:

    It’s never too late to get a tattoo or a criminal record.

  22. cynical optimist says:

    above angry poster is commecing enlightening, currently seeking a mother of my kids to be…. I’m not seeking an ideological esoteric utopia but it is quite a big decision and some good vetting is required

  23. @Version3.0
    Because we WANT to marry a faithful, loving wife who hasn’t slept with a man from every frat at the college she went to.

  24. Highlander says:

    Version3.0 ,

    What I think angry poster is trying to say is sometimes it does not work no matter what you do and you have to cut them loose, which is very MMSL

  25. RedPillNewb says:

    BTW, to the original letter writer: stop by the MMSL forum and read what men have to say there. Many of them are struggling to get a woman they LOVE to love them back. I’m one of them. I don’t need a hundred bimbos, I need the one I married.

  26. I agree with Ian Ironwood, though I reword it as: When someone else’s happiness means more to you than your own, you love that person. It is a state you can fall in AND OUT of.

  27. Love is only for the good looking. After 30 years of all the nonsense.. I have finally figured that out. I wont waste time/energy/effort into another Man. In the end if you are not someone they will have on their arm. Its pointless to waste energy.

  28. The Dude says:

    @cynical optimist:

    ” The girl in question stayed with an abuser for ten years who cheated on her and dumped her on valentines day.”

    That wasn’t a big red flag?!?!?! Why would a sane woman stay with that type of individual for 10 years?

    There are 3 things I always look at with women.
    1) Does she like me?
    2) Does she have a good attitude?
    3) What’s her scars and baggage?

    Because believe me her scars and baggage better be pretty low…because they will get dumped on you.

  29. I say the following from personal experience….
    Reasons women stay with abusive men include:
    – Religious direction to avoid divorce and “bring the husband to God” by being loving and kind.
    – Pair bonding – it’s very hard to let go once you bond.
    – A loyal and forgiving nature.
    – A history of abuse in the parental home – it seems normal therefore and one may have imprinted the victim role.
    – No where to go and no options plus never having learned to be independent.
    – Fear of being followed and beaten/killed.
    – Family and friends probably enjoying saying “I told you do” and generally humiliating the victim.

    I’d say there is a steep learning curve for any person who escapes an abusive relationship – it may not just be a matter of finding a nice person to save one and settling down, one needs to learn about boundaries, being assertive and recognising and showing acceptable behaviour….there may also be some life-limiting beliefs to leave behind.

    I’ve also seen what seems to be inherited agressive and abusive behaviour (rather than just learned) – I’ve observed this across 4 generations in a branch of my family. In another branch, alcoholism seems to be associated with abuse and the tendancy towards this can be explained in part by genetics. Therefore, one should be careful about passing abusive behaviour onto children – either through modelling it or introducing the genetic predisposition.

    Hope this helps!

    :-) C

  30. Joe Commenter says:

    @Karen: A little bit of anger for you too huh?

    For men, yes, physical attractiveness of our mate is a big part of our requirements. But for every female 10, there is a male 10. For every female 5 there is a male 5 out there. There are quality men out there who have the same sexual market value rank as you. Find the quality guys with integrity.

    When My wife and I met she was probably higher SMV than me. She has gained 25 pounds while I am in better physical condition than I was then. My SMV is now likely higher than hers. I don’t dwell much on it. She keeps me sexed up properly. That is what is important to me. I have no desire to try to bag a hot babe 10 who will never fuck me.

    Anyway, don’t be too sure it was just physical stuff that was the issue.

  31. @Joe.. not really. I am a realist. I have know men are are a 5 and they believe they deserve the 10 babe. There are men who have entitlement issues as much as women. I laugh.

  32. Off The Grid says:

    Karen, I think the point that Joe was making is that having an attitude that you are not attractive enough is worse than being not attractive enough. Go get a gym membership, lose some weight, get an optimal long hair style, whiten your teeth and fix any dental issues, pay off your credit card debt, learn to flirt, and get back to us. Most men’s number one criteria for a woman being attractive is don’t be overweight. Number 2 maintain good personal hygiene. Do these two things. And keep the negativity and drama in check and you should be fine.

  33. @ Off the Grid, I am 5’0 tall at 120. I do Jazzercise 4 times a week. I get hit on by men. Not interested. They can kiss my ass. 30 years of bullshit. I’m done. btw I am 52, been divorced since both were in diapers. Financially supported us and raised 2 boys on my own. They are grown now. I am a sub. I have been in a Dom/sub relationship (two) for the past 20 years. Vanilla guy I went to HS with has hit on me. he’s has some fame. I’ve been beat up so emotionally & mentally that I cannot put myself back out there.

  34. When you are TOLD you are not good enough.. I am not going to fight it. I will embrace it. I wont fight that fight.

  35. Karen – If you want to make changes and try again, MMSL is the place for you.

    I hope you consider staying.

  36. Do I want to make changes… LOL.. how so? You see I am the woman and more of which Athol speaks. The one these men are trying to change their women into. I’m very sexual. I’m independent, not needy. I am pleaser and submissive. I’m smart and strong. I never did treat Men the way I hear about from some of these people that post here. Men cant recognize if it hit them over the hit. In my situations every ex has came back to me and said they messed up. One even went so far to say he should not have been so careless. At this point, there is nothing left in me to give. I cant see putting time, energy or effort towards it. 30 years years is enough. No changes for me.

  37. correction: hit them over the “head” with it.

  38. Karen – the only common element in all your relationship failures is you. If every single ex has come back and said they messed up, you’re very likely repeating the same error in all your relationships.

    You sound very much like the female version of a Nice Guy chump who allows himself to be taken advantage of in initimate relationships. Taken for granted, overlooked and ignored despite all the good they do for their partner. Then because of the endless cycle of allowing yourself to be taken for granted, your partner loses interest and respect for you, and then leaves and/or cheats with someone that provides more of a challenge to them. Once that all blows up, they realize they’ve lost something good from their life, and see you as being such a doormat to their needs that they actually think that if they ask to come back that you’ll let them.

    After a few cycles of that, you’re so livid at being taken for granted you see the solution as being to never get involved with men again. You see yourself as long suffering, always doing the right thing, and unjustly treated. You believe that if you treat people well, they are meant to treat you well back. But you have no plan in place to respond to people who treat you poorly, other than to double up on being nice to them.

    In your heart of hearts, you crave a man that will lead you, but sees your submission as a gift that requires protection, appreciation, loyalty and a tender touch.

    How am I doing?

  39. Agreed> so a Bitch it is. The more I am a Bitch the more the Men come. Outrageous.

  40. Also let me add that the “game” mentioned in this blog is silly to me. Men have to be taught to get sex from their wives or girlfriends.. is this for real?

    I read the last entry where Athol mentions to make a girl jump through hoops to get to a Man. I’m sorry. I do not get it. If I cant be myself without being taken advantage of, then I’m being less than genuine.

  41. BlackSun says:

    @cynical optimist:
    It sounds like your ex had some serious self-esteem issues if she spent ten years with an abuser. Low self-esteem people are the ones least likely to respond to good treatment, because deep down they feel as if they don’t deserve it, and will often act in a way to sabotage their good fortune. My guess would be that in most cases where one person improves their Sex Rank and does not get a favorable response from their partner, that is the underlying reason why. Be sure you screen for women who do not have self-esteem issues. It’s unlikely you can change that – and anyway, why bother? Better to start with someone who will appreciate it than to try to act as a savior.

  42. “Men have to be taught to get sex from their wives or girlfriends.. is this for real?”

    I think we’ve just caught on to another of Karen’s tendendancies. It sounds like she’s only dated High-Alphas for her entire romantic history. That explains why she was a doormat to them and why it was them who messed things up (maybe by cheating? It is what Alphas do). That also explains her disbelief regardng the above statement.

  43. @Jodark. Must have struck a nerve. Sorry if you dont get laid often enough.

  44. @Karen,
    That wasn’t an insult. Just an observation. Sorry you’re so defensive. Maybe I hit a nerve?

    You said that you were in 2 Dom/Sub relationships which means that you are attracted to very dominant personalities (High-Alpha). You also said that you’ve always been pursued, so your empathy for those who haven’t been pursued or haven’t been good at pursuing probably isn’t very developed. It just hasn’t occured to you, because it is outside your personal experiences.

  45. It was an insult and you know it. You made a lot of assumptions that were incorrect. You spoke of my tendencies but know nothing of me and then went straight into how I was cheated on. Which was not the case.

    Men have always thought of women as complicated, that we say we want a nice guy but end up with an Asshat. Yet I’m finding that Men typically talk out of both sides of their mouths. Men speak of qualities in a woman they want but when they have that it seems that its too easy for them. I am aloof to men because I have no desire to get involved. It makes them pursue more. If I was open to a relationship and was flirty, open, feminine all the things you men say that you want, you perceive it as too easy.

  46. Off The Grid says:

    Karen, I think you reconfirmed my point. When you said that “relationships are only for the good looking.” My argument was that I didn’t think looks were the problem. You sound like a good catch overall and like you are in great shape. It sounds like your problem is your mate selection process, and then how you maintain your relationships. Kudos, for staying in great shape, that is half the battle.

  47. When I see the writing on the wall I begin the ending of the relationship. Knowing full well down the road they will want back in. they always do. The common denominator is me with this pattern. Maybe I am not good at choosing men. I am not going to stick around to convince someone I’m worthy enough to keep. If they are not smart enough to see it, then I have no use for them either.

    funny story: a 40 y/o guy at my job getting divorced and he was telling me how he was going to sit down and tell his Mother he was only dating twenty-five year old. hahaha – with a gut WAAAYYY out there. Baggage.. etc. Can he pull that? Hell no. There are so many Men that believe they deserve dime pieces. Its comical. You Men do that. I’m still not getting that. It might what you like and want. Talking about not living in reality. It just as irritating to me when women expect a Financial saviour from a Man.

    Somebody has to come along and let me be the genuine me and appreciate and be happy with it. Otherwise, I can do solo and can be just as content with that. My happiness does not depend on having a Man.

  48. @Karen:

    “Otherwise, I can do solo and can be just as content with that. My happiness does not depend on having a Man.”

    And yet, here you are, on a marriage forum, talking about relationships. Clearly you DO want a man. There’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone who is here is here because they’re not getting everything they want out of their relationship, or they’re not in a relationship currently and they want to figure out how to find a good one, or (rarely) they used to be in one of the former two categories, figured out how to make it work for them, and stuck around to give those of us still early in the process some hints based on what they’ve already been through.

    Working hard to make yourself the sort of independent person who doesn’t NEED an S.O. to swoop in and make them happy is a good thing, but that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with WANTING someone to share the good fruits of your labor with.

    “When I see the writing on the wall I begin the ending of the relationship.”

    Or, put another way, you’re afraid that they’ll leave you, so you leave them first.

  49. Ben, why prolong it and be the long suffering one LOL. I found this blog from another blog. the other blog I read about how miserable he is in his marriage. So I did some reading here and gave my input. I think of having a relationship. It would have to come relatively easy, I’m just not in a place to give very much right now. That my dear, is the best honesty I can give you for now. Never say never.

  50. You don’t suffer. Suffering won’t make it better. You work. You work and work and work to make yourself the kind of person who can hold up their end of a strong, functional LTR. And then, when you feel like you’re there (or at least as close as you’re going to get), you give the other person a choice: hold up your end too, or I’ll find someone else who can. You don’t assume that they can’t hold up their end and give them the preemptive boot, and you DEFINITELY don’t give them the boot before you put in the work yourself. You give them the choice. It’s the only way to do it that has any chance of succeeding in the long term. To do otherwise is to set yourself up for failure.

    Relationships aren’t easy. Ever. If they seem easy, it’s because you’re still in the honeymoon period, but that’s not sustainable. Sooner or later, you’ve got to put in the hard work. Don’t sit around and wait for someone to “come along” and make it easy for you. It will never happen. It’s a fairy tale. If you want a relationship, go in prepared to do the work. If that’s too much work for you, then don’t bother. But either way, make that choice with your eyes open.


  1. […] Kay is probably right – “By and large the angry men in the Manosphere are angry because the bottom line after […]

  2. […] more incredible experience than anything else they’ve ever felt previously… Athol Kay is probably right – “By and large the angry men in the Manosphere are angry because the bottom line after the […]

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