When Princess Fiona Comes With a Mess of Little Donkeys

Reader:  Hi Athol,  I wrote to you before when I was in the final stages of my marriage. You gave me some good advice and it was appreciated.

It’s become clear that my major problem (other than the fact that I married a woman who seems to have BPD) was structural: I was poor, relatively (ESL teacher) and she was looking for more security. Since having gotten a better paying job in IT, my ex has shown interest again showing me that, as bitter a truth as it can be to accept, it was, in a way, my fault. I can’t blame my ex-wife for needing security, especially understanding what I do now about the “Red Pill” reality of a woman’s mind.

So, anyway, that wasn’t my point in writing. I wanted to see if you’d care to discuss something on your blog. It’s been a major breakthrough for me, having been raised as a step-child and having just divorced a woman with children. It seems that women secretly despise men that take care of children that aren’t theirs. On one level, they love and appreciate it but on another, deeper level, they seem to look at the step-father as a kind of volunteer cuckold of sorts. This can even push women who are unaware of themselves to encourage their new husbands to be especially strict or even abusive of their step-children in extreme situations. Maybe Alpha males of the sub-Saharan past would do the same as Lions (kill the young from previous males)? I wonder what your advice would be to men interested in marrying women with children from previous marriages. It seems to be a bad idea to me, from my experience. The woman will always look at those kids and remember her ex-husband and look at her new husband as a chump for taking care of children that aren’t his. Even though the Blue Pill entertainment industry has always portrayed guys that rescue the divorced woman and her child as heroes, it seems like women only think that way in the movies.

Athol:  Okay let me just shout this out at the start of the post…  in the case of infertility, adoption and artificial in insemination et al are completely different issues of “raising someone else’s child”. I’m not talking about that issue here, I’ll get to it soon I think because it’s a huge issue for many couples.

Anyway…

The ugly truth is much as you have guessed it to be. When a woman already has children and has either divorced or never married the father, she has a serious need for help with the time and effort in raising the children. Even if she’s doing fairly well from child support and alimony payments, she’s not going to have the same total household income as before the divorce, so she needs addition of income to raise her children. Thus what she needs is a dependable Beta provider and not someone who is going to rock the boat with Alpha demands for more of her attention and submission. Basically she’s had all the Alpha she can handle and now she needs you to man up about being a wallet and a babysitter.

After marrying into a solo mother’s family, men often find they have been the target of a rather well planned headhunting expedition. They’ve been wined and dined. Fabulous home cooked meals. All the kids on their best behavior. Her friends all swooping in and helping whisk the children away to their house to allow privacy and passion. Her extremely agreeable and eager to please… everything is just so wonderful… you’re actually starting to bond with the kids a little… she’s a good woman, the kids are great… let’s get married…

…wedding bells. Well not really, a simple ceremony with more of her friends than yours in attendance…

…and the honeymoon is over. Now there’s beer and Chinese takeout. The kids make it very clear that you aren’t their father. There seems to be more of her friends dropping off kids at her house than the other way around. Sex drops off fairly quickly (because you aren’t getting along with the children and that just stresses her out)  Also having moved into her house, it’s become apparent that it really is her house… not our house, her house. It’s not so much that she makes the rules, more that no one gives a crap about what you say anyway. Also apparently there’s some outstanding tax bills and it would make sense if everyone got one cell phone plan under your name.

Well that’s the horror story scenario anyway. Probably does not happen to every guy that marries into a ready made family, but certainly happens enough that the horror story is a readily reported pattern.

I think you have it right that there is a level of contempt for men that raise other men’s children. Whether she was your wife and got pregnant to another guy, or she got pregnant to another guy and became your wife, it all amounts to you spending vital resources on a child that isn’t yours. Which is pretty much the dumbest thing possible to do as far as male genes are concerned. Everyone’s Body Agenda thinks you’re a total idiot and frankly worse off than a guy that just masturbates. If all you do is jerk off, you don’t pass your genes off into the next generation, but at least you aren’t paying through the nose for the privilege.

Also watch for the frequent request to legally adopt her children. That’s just her exit strategy to divorce you and still get your money, without having to go through the mental effort of having to endlessly spurn you sexually. Depending on which state you’re in, you may not even have to legally marry her to get caught up in a child support mess because you have been “acting like a father to the children.” The little darlings did bond to you so quickly after all.

As you can probably figure out now, if you had your whole Alpha/Beta/Physical package together from the start, you would never have felt the need to have gotten involved with her so seriously in the first place. If you’re a hotter guy and a better catch, instead of the single girl without kids flaking on you and the solo mom being the best you could get, the single girl turns into your fiance and the solo mom acts is her bridesmaid and drinks a little too much at the reception. Sex Rank is a true marketplace and cares not for Hollywood endings.

So personally, I would think extremely seriously about getting involved with anyone marrying for the second time, especially if they have children, oh and if you’re just a wallet, they always try and get pregnant asap to trap you in further. The exception to this being if we’re talking about two middle aged people with grown children, that’s a bit of a different situation. In that case the woman is looking for a more Alpha partner to have fun with and a proper relationship. You’re not going to get caught up in child support hell if see has a 25-year-old son and a 23-year-old daughter. But they sure as hell shouldn’t be living at home still. Kids gotta be self-supporting, or no dice on the getting involved front. Or put another way… Princess Fiona shouldn’t come with a collection of Donkeys.

Comments

  1. RedPillNewb says:

    What’s the calculus on a widow? Sure, it’s another man’s kids, but you don’t have to deal with the presence of Mr. Alpha Pump ‘n’ Dump in her life.

    Personally, I would never inflict myself stepchildren; I got the privilege of being that step child in two families at once, and it sucked, no matter how awesome my parents thought their new mates were.

    A widow is less of a worry. I think that’s a far more sympathetic situation than “it just didn’t work out.”

  2. RedPillNewb says:

    “…inflict myself ON stepchildren…”

  3. Same here, RedPillNewb. I was practically raised by a stepmother who didn’t EVER want kids . She knew if she told my father to “lose the kid” he would have left her on the spot, so she just resorted (most certainly as body agenda/unconscious move) to destroying me emotionally while I was growing up. I guess if I ever have kids I’ll either stay married through hell and high water or just date other men but never bring them into my house ’till my kids are grown.
    My stepfather was a pain the ass, basically because he was not my father, but he was never a bad person.
    In this kind of situation, it’s the best you can expect, and it’s not as good as an intact family.
    Great funny post about a shitty situation that blue pillers never fail to underestimate, Athol. Thanks as usual.

  4. Reading this post made me realize a situation a few years ago where a woman from church was hardcore gaming me to get serious with her. She is somewhat emotionally unstable, has 3 kids from 2 different fathers. She suddenly got interested in all the things I liked (guns, politics, etc). She even invited me over to her house one evening, had baked a frozen pizza, kept the lights real low and was sending out massive IOIs. It was so blatent that I kinda felt bad for her. However, I was way too Beta to act on her signals at the time. And looking back, I thank God for that any time I see her in church with her new hubby (new hubby also has kids, so they have a blended family, good for them, better for me). I dodged one hell of a bullet.

    LMAO frozen pizza. Work it girl, you work it.

  5. You just recited my prior marriage including the expedited pregnancy and adoption play for the kid from her previous marriage. Such a huge life lesson. Which is why I was relentless in the selection of my current wife who’s a wonderful woman all around. At least the learning experience guided me to a positive outcome.

  6. This, I suspect, is one of the hardest pills for a single mom to hear.

    A truly crappy situation.

  7. Unless you are an Alpha Bad Boy (in which case this whole discussion would not even be happening in the first place, so the answer to that question is: You’re not)…

    1- You are not her first and she has already likely bonded to someone else in the past, so her ability to bond long-term with you is limited to non-existent from the start.
    2- She is committed to her kids, herself and her/their needs (order variable) first, with you in distant fourth place, and maybe even lower.
    3- She ‘settled’ for you, most likely out of need/desperation, which means that deep inside, she hates herself for that and by extension you as well, and those emotions will bubble up inside of her every time she looks at you once the so-called honeymoon period is over.
    4- As already pointed out, you are a willing cuckold.

    1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = You’re screwed.

  8. Ancient Jews had it right.

    If a woman lost her husband (most likely by becoming a widow as there was no such thing as divorce), one of brothers of the deceased husband or another willing man took her as his SECOND wife. The new husband had to provide her and her children with sex and material resources, just like his first wife, but the first wife had command over the second, just like the husband had command over both of them.

    This made sure that all women have husbands, all children have male providers while all men have virgins as their first wives. Everyone is happy.

    So you see the modern strict principle of monogamy, where women refuse to share a man and a man must leave one women to go for another is causing more harm than good. Polygamy is great if executed not as a means for harem building for the few rich alfa sultans, but rather then a form of social security. In the current monogamous system single mothers have no option but to slut it up by becoming government whores or just prostitutes or beta snatchers seeking for men who would abandon their God given right to have a virgin as a wife.

    The reason masses believe women cannot share a man is the same reason masses believe that its OK for women to live for their careers, cut their hair short, or seek casual sex. Masses are brainwashed to think that women will be happy when they become like men.

  9. The modern best solution under modern monogamous laws would be for single mothers to seek single fathers. That would be just. However this is hard to do either, because custody is given to mothers almost exclusively and single fathers are rare.

    If you have no first wife who has only had sex with you in her lifetime and if you have no children of your own, but you marry a single mom – then my friend you have been had. You have fallen for for a scam – the most ancient and basic scam in the world, the scam of all scams.

  10. Oh Athol you are totally going to get fire for this one. This is probably the hardest truth in a society that treats “divorce” is better for the kids and a “stepparent” is as good as a biological one.
    Don’t get me wrong I totally agree with you but this one has a Politically Incorrect factor of 10 (the scale is till 12 don’t ask) written all over. Good luck!

  11. I’m lucky in that I’m the child of parents who married (before they had us) and never divorced. There have been no divorces in my family. So I think it gives me a certain insight into the fact that divorces and “blended families” are not normal, and they’re certainly not good for children. My friends and in laws who have been surrounded by that seem to have lost sight of reality. I’ve heard inlaws spitting nails, because their children have had the nerve to dislike the umpteenth man their mother has moved in, and want some stability. Apparently, they should be grateful to have a roof over their heads and mom should be able to move in whomever she pleases without being *judged*. Those monsters, judging her, amirite?

    Does anyone remember when Reese Witherspoon gave an interview where she said that any parent had to realise that a divorce would hurt the children, no exceptions? And that, even if it was best overall, you can’t go through it and expect them to not be affected.

    I admired her honesty – she seemed more self critical and analytical than most divorcees – but the Women of the Interwebs were apopleptic. What if you’re fighting, and it upsets the children? What about abuse? The amazing thing was that Witherspoon wasn’t even criticising them. She just wanted to acknowledge reality, and the women took it as a personal attack.

  12. Excellent post.

  13. Athol/whoever wants to answer: what are your thoughts on women getting involved with men who have children from a previous relationship?

  14. What’s the situation where the opposite is true? The guy is divorced and has partial custody of young children from his previous marriage? Should a woman not get involved with him?

  15. I’m curious what people would think of this fact pattern. I”m 41, women showing IOI’s is 35 and divorced. Got pregnant in high school and her and married the dad before the 1st child was born. (She was the daughter of a traditional Catholic family who immigrated to the US before she was born) Two kids, one a senior in HS this year the other one starting Jr. high. Has been divorced from dad for close to 10 years now. Her story is that he ran around on her with a friend of hers and then she cheated on him as revenge, which she’s admitted didn’t help matters and didn’t make her feel better. Both kids appear to be well adjusted. Father of the two kids is heavily involved in their lives and lives in the same town. She has a job that pays fairly well, not loaded by any means but she and the children’s father put both kids through private school from 1st through 8th grade.

    I’ve never been married, and no children. She claims she doesn’t want any more kids, which I tend to believe. She’s beginning to enjoy doing things now that she’s never been able to do before. We talk a lot, in between meetings and with other people at group lunches, and my not have ever been married has come up. I’ve explained it in a very watered down red pill way, i.e. lots of girls have entitlement complexes, and need for constant validation, deck stacked against guys if marriage goes south etc, and have given her examples of entitlement and validation needs with various past g/fs. She says she doesn’t believe that there are large numbers of women out there that do that and, of course, she would never do or act in ways that I’ve described past g/fs. Because of this I gave her the nickname “Nessie” after the Loch Ness Monster, a mythical animal that many people would like to believe exists. She thought it was funny and now ends her non-important business emails with the name Nessie.

    My question is, considering the kids are close to being through school and out on their own how wary should I be that she’s looking for a beta provider instead of someone to have fun with?

  16. The problem here seems to be wrong priorities. Husband comes first, then children. As long as she gets that and continues to get it throughout the marriage, I think a marriage to a divorced women with children might work. I’d rather assume the best about her instead of the worst.
    The fact that she’s had sex with another man might pose to be a bigger problem than the children. Sex is a powerful bond and hard to break.

    Why assume the best about a woman with a track history of a failed marriage? Men don’t really have that luxury these days.

  17. Trimegistus says:

    We all recognize it’s an issue, but what about advice for the poor guys who are caught in that situation?

    My intuitive answer is “be very alpha” (short of child abuse or cheating, of course), and possibly “game the kids.”

    Any other brilliant ideas?

  18. I’ve seen blended families that work out great . . . usually when there’s been proper vetting and a long courtship, not the frozen-pizza-blowjob-shotgun wedding approach. This is a situation in which proper Wife Selection is even more important — and don’t be afraid to walk away, fellas, even if the frozen pizza is really tasty.

    But there’s more to it than that. In step-situations and blended families, there is a Red Pill way forward, and it does involve a lot of Alpha. A dude in that situation needs to claim Captaincy and then run the damn ship hard, or get the hell out. Otherwise he’s a glorified butler who’s paying for the privilege of raising his own cockblockers without even the solace that they’re his genetic responsibility.

    I feel a post coming on . . .

  19. I remember a subject similar to this coming up on one of the other popular blogs (Dalrock’s I think?). The gist of it was that single moms do frequently use their friends to make the kid(s) scarce, and will very willingly sink herself in debt in a gamble to make things look better while sinking her hooks into you.

    On the plus side, if you have a decent mix of Alpha and Beta going, you can get those same single moms to really pull out their A game in bed in their efforts to lure you in. I don’t have any guilt using someone who is ultimately trying to use me as well.

  20. Invisible_Husband says:

    This is exactly what happened to me. Thus my name Invisible Husband. I was stupid. Took on 3 kids and have one between us. Pure Hell. The wife/Mother will not allow the chump/Husband(me) to help disipline the kids, so they walk all over you. I am last in everything. Especially Love, sex, affection. We went to a amusement park a few years ago and they all walked 10 feet ahead of me like I was the butler. Very disrespectful. Athol says “I got caught in a divorced womans fly paper”. yep. for sure.
    Please, don’t do what I did and get caught up in this. I have applied the MAP, but since she was never into me in the first place, she will never be into me. Athol states this in his book . What does a man do once he is already in this situation?

  21. I have said for years that any man who raises another man’s children is a cuckold. Many of these problems were taken care of in the past. There wasn’t such a thing as no-fault divorce and when there was a divorce the children were almost always awarded to the father.

  22. The horror story isn’t always true. It wasn’t in my case; I don’t feel like I’ve been “had”.

    But I can see how it could go wrong. And I’d be pissed if it did.

    But I knew what I was getting into, I knew what sacrifices there would be. While the idea of a younger/purer woman may appeal to some, I went down that path and found a whole shit ton of crazy. In my wife, I found someone who I was compatible with sexually, someone with a career, and someone who is extremely supportive of me and is what I want in a wife. Sure, eventually I may have found that in a non-divorced, younger woman… but the issues I was having with women weren’t worth spending any more time in the game.

    And having seen his actions over the last few years, I have no doubt that his irresponsible behavior and near insanity was what drove her away; yes, many times the exwife is the crazy shrew but not in this case.

    It certainly can work out, you just have to be going in with open eyes and awareness. Some women really do get screwed first time around. Glad to hear it’s going well.

  23. “The reason masses believe women cannot share a man is the same reason masses believe that its OK for women to live for their careers, cut their hair short, or seek casual sex. Masses are brainwashed to think that women will be happy when they become like men.”
    Many people believe that a woman cannot share a man because they are Christians who follow the New Testament model of marriage and believe the Biblical teaching that two people become one when they have intercourse.

  24. Changed Man says:

    I’m struggling with this post. While, from an extreme red-pill perspective, there’s a significant amount of truth to Athol’s post and the following comments, I refuse to paint all single moms with the ugly, broad brush being used here and the idea that all single moms are henceforth relegated to some guy’s Friday night pump & dump extravaganza.

    Yes, there is one extreme of single moms living on welfare and child support checks that would like nothing more than a beta man to be a wallet and a babysitter, but there are also a bunch out there who didn’t have the “waaah, I’m not happy” divorce, learned from there past mistakes, are looking for a true partner, are professionals with well paying jobs, don’t expect their new SO to raise their kids, and understand that tending the marriage is 1st priority, with the kids coming in a very closed 2nd.

    I agree with Ian that having well-honed wife selection skills is what’s really important. Taking a large demographic and casting them out to live with the lepers seems a bit beneath us.

  25. Oh I don’t think they are lepers, I just think any man getting married has to absolutely be aware of what he’s getting into when he marries.

    There is copious research that shows second marriages fail at a higher rate than first ones. So one should absolutely be more cautious about being anyones second husband.

  26. As a child of divorce who then witnessed my mother divorce two additional men, I have to agree with Athol. Granted my mom has a ton of issues and always picked damaged men to “fix”, but her main focus was almost always on me and my brothers. It was her first, then us, then the man. For this reason alone I cannot advocate marrying a single mom, you will always be last in line. Al of the other points made by Athol and others may vary from woman to woman, but the above truth will almost always be a constant.

  27. PsychoAlphaDiscoBeta says:

    Nice post! I agree with what you’ve written but feel like I held back from really highlighting the darkest insight(from my experience anyway): the reason so many step-fathers become abusive to their step-children is that this is the only way their wives can stay attracted to them in light of their voluntary cuckoldhood. I noticed on of the comments alluded to this as well.

    Let me be clear that I was in no way abusive to my step-children: they loved me and we had great times together, even as the chump that I was. Still, without going into the gory details of my marriage and my childhood, I can see it all very clearly: women with kids from previous marriages allow or even encourage abuse of those kids because it makes them not feel like they are married to a chump. In a sick way it turns them on. Abusive evil step-fathers are closer to bad-boys (thus more attractive) than clueless surrogate dads.

    Also, if the step-father can convince the single mother that the children from the previous guy are inferior or somehow flawed, the woman is able to rationalize that it wasn’t a pump-and-dump Alpha that left her with the genetically superior offspring but just a simple, sad mistake. If the kids are generally happy or successful at different things in their childhood it can make her feel she missed out in not keeping the first guy. So, the more messed up the kids from the first marriage seem, the happier she is in her present marriage.

    These are some very dark insights but I think you’ll agree they ring true.

    Thanks for getting all this info out to people. It could save whole generations of people a lot of heartache.

  28. Changed Man says:

    Athol, didn’t think you did… was being a bit tongue-in-cheek to drive my point.

    You’re absolutely right that 2nd marriages fail at about a 10% higher rate than first marriages, but I’m a bit hazy on the breakdown of the data. No doubt, a bunch are due to difficulties with step-kids and/or blended families, but there also a significant number of failed 2d marriages where kids are not a factor.

    IMO, it’s more of a matter of people not learning from their prior mistakes, still thinking that another person will fill the gaping hole in their heart that only they themselves can fill, not having the ‘discipline’ to deal with their own baggage and expecting somebody else to fix them, still having no clear understanding of who they are, what they want, and why they do what they do…. lastly, and more importantly, they’re still taking the blue pill.

  29. I agree (as a woman) that men should certainly be very cautious about second wives. I’ve seen male relatives get sucked into marriages to women with children, and end up as beta doormats. I think the big issue there is that SHE has kids, but HE doesn’t. So the guy’s trying to schmooze up, be nice to the kids, prove he can be a good daddy.

    But a man who already has kids has probably established his parenting style already, so he has no issue asserting it. In that case, I think he’d be less likely to beta down because he has his own kids’ interests to look out for the in the relationship. He’s already been a captain too. It gives him more leverage than an unsuspecting never-dad who’s trying to fit into a pre-made family instead of setting the tone for the new one he’s half creating.

  30. That was really insightful, PsychoAlphaDiscoBeta.

  31. I’m curious as well. Does the reverse hold true for childless women and men with children from previous relationships?

  32. Interestingly, I had a conversation with my woman about this just yesterday. We were discussing what each of us would do if we broke up (which is seeming more and more likely these days) over the fact that I want kids and she doesn’t.

    Obviously for me, one of my priorities after getting my life back together and trying to get over her (which will not be an easy or quick process) would be trying to find someone who DOES want to have kids with me. She asked– with no particular agenda that I could determine, just as though she were curious– if I would ever consider marrying (or otherwise partnering up long-term) with a woman that already has kids.

    I hadn’t really thought about it, but as I examined my feelings, they echoed what Athol posted here almost exactly. I could see adopting a child together with a woman who had also never had kids, so it’s not JUST the genetics thing, but trying to raise kids together with a woman when they’re genetically related to her but not to me seems inherently imbalanced. I’d also have a helluva hard time going through life knowing that I was Plan B after Plan A walked out the door or turned out to be abusive or whatever.

    Which is not to say I’d never, EVER consider it, but any woman with kids from a previous man who’s not properly deceased would have a helluva job convincing me that she’d learned everything there was to learn from whatever mistakes she made that lead to that first relationship ending, and she’d also have to have a helluva lot else going for her to balance out such a huge drawback.

    I would like to say that I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with a woman with kids making them her priority above and beyond everything else in her life. That is absolutely her decision, and probably even the right one. She’s allowed to look after her own best interests. Just as I’m allowed to look after mine by not getting involved with such a woman. It’s a rough old world, but there you go.

  33. I'm a man says:

    @PsychoAlphaDiscoBeta – In my early 20’s i dated a girl with a 3 yr old. One night he wasn’t sleeping because it was hot and humid. She wanted me to play bad cop, and asked me to go in and spank him. this was after we both tried to settle him down. She wanted to continue being the good mom. Needless to say i could not fathom why someone would get spanked for not falling asleep. I ended it shortly after.

    @Mike – Red flag = “Her story is that he ran around on her with a friend of hers and then she cheated on him as revenge” Why don’t you have her introduce you to other women without children?

  34. So isn’t it amazing how many of the profiles on pof match etc. have “my kids are the most important thing in my life blah blah.” As a test I ran a search in my area of 35-45 women no parameters. Over 500 hits. Same search but with the “wont date people with kids” clicked. Search dropped to just over 100.

    Sad if this is the pool. Also points out the value of any half ways decent man in the 35+ meet market.

    Gee maybe EPL was bullshit after all.

  35. I am writing a post on “childless woman + man with prior children” for tonight.

  36. Changed Man says:

    I was a single dad with custody when I met my 2nd wife, who also had kids. For a time, we had all the kids under one roof… that was a hoot! :-)

    Not saying it’s been easy. A major chunk of our marital strife had been from very different childhoods and parenting styles. Post red pill, we’ve both made adjustments and compromises, working much better as a team.

    For the kids part, never once have my step-kids told me “you’re not my Dad”. They know who raised them, refer to me as their ‘other Dad’, and we love each other very deeply. My youngest has told my present wife on several occasions that she’s been more of a Mother to her than her ‘biological’ one.

  37. Ben, I’ve been following your story, but I can’t post on your blog because blogspot is not wordpress and won’t work on a phone (so glad Athol switched!).

    I think you are correct to decide to leave her. I do not want this to sound bad, but from what I gather your girlfriend is not in love with you. On a primal level she does not see you as a worthy mate, which is partly why she doesn’t want to have biological kids with you or to put her body through all that for you.

    I had a lot of internal resistance to having kids with an ex and did all kinds of mental gymnastics against kids. All of that resistance melted away when I met my husband, and I was 25. I got pregnant almost right after we married, but I had a stillbirth at 36 weeks and was devastated. I wanted a child with him again immediately.

    The words “I want your babies” is the ultimate expression of a woman’s love for a man. It’s different from an unplanned pregnancy. I knew what pains those 9 months would entail, and it’s totally worth it to give my husband a child. I also want our child to have as many of his traits as possible.

    In short, I believe you should not settle for a woman who doesn’t love you whole-heartedly and who would be thrilled to have your progeny. I wish you luck and much future happiness.

  38. Highlander says:

    A lot of good points here, the problem is though at certain age groups it’s almost impossible to find a woman is isn’t a single mom ;~) In regards to the searching POF and other dating sites, I’m amazed at the number of women who do not have their kids living with them, or hubby has them more than her…. To me that’s another red flag in a way, after all, what kind of woman runs off on her kids? It’s like we’re screwed both ways.

  39. Well, what have we here? A topic near and dear to my heart. Gonna thought vomit…hold by head. Lolz.

    I run an ever evolving classification system. Similar to my fun initial screening checklist.

    Here is how I see it:

    1. Single Mother, Never Married: Bad move for anything but limited sexual fun and adventure. You must positively, absolutely not raw-dog and you must personally dispose of it and flush it. You must never, never, never trust that she is on the pill, “doctor said I can’t get pregnant”, “I don’t want more kids.” No matter what she says on that topic, do not believe her. Ever. If you do, you are a complete fool and other men will laugh at you, preferably to your face.

    In general, regarding the Single Never Married mom, you are choosing to associate with one of the lower class of women on society’s rungs. It doesn’t matter if she comes from the ghetto or from a nice upper middle class background. Understand that if you choose to girlfriend her up, move her in or marry her, you are demonstrating your low value and/or your low opinion of yourself. Big boy rules apply, never clean up another man’s mess.

    However, if you are desperate, or this is the best you can do, I suppose her diminished status might allow you access to a physically hotter woman than you could normally get, but dude, don’t be so lazy. If you are under 35 you should really punch yourself in the face and then the nuts if you are even considering hooking up with a single never married momma in a permanent fashion.

    I don’t particularly care why she is a single, never married mom. I don’t care about youthful mistakes and learning your lesson. It’s not my fault and it’s not my problem as an individual. That doesn’t mean I go out of my way to treat these women like dirt or to chastise them or to sneer at them to their face. There is nothing I can say anyway that would deter many of them from seeing themselves as heroic martyrs and victims of that “no good man” she spread for.

    No way would I subject myself to one as any kind of serious girlfriend or marriage partner unless her kids are grown and gone and she has an extremely serious long term track record of not F’ing up anything else in her life after her ‘mistake’. But I’ve never seen that actually happen in reality. They generally keep compounding mistakes. That may seem cruel, but my first priority is to me. I was not put on this Earth to save a woman from her bad choices.

    Within this category there are two subsets, one more potentially harmful to you than the other. The first is the one who got knocked up in high school or late teens/college. That would be your standard single mom right there. “Date” her if you must, but do not move her in your home, move in with her or marry her.

    The second type should be avoided at all costs. If you are a younger guy this might not even occur to you but in time you will see women who are over thirty, single-never married and have a two year old. So, the woman is 35 and she decided at 33 that she should forget where babies come from and gets “surprise!” knocked up? I don’t think so.

    What you are seeing is a woman who tried to run the pregnancy trap on another dude and it didn’t work. Now she’s gunning for you. Run. Don’t tap that. You’re playing serious Russian Roulette with your future. That bitch be crazy.

    As a general rule of thumb you should especially avoid a single mom who has had a strong religious conversion. She will definitely forget to take her birth control and she will definitely have the kid. You will definitely need to paternity test and if it is yours you are definitely on the hook for 18+ years worth of payments.

    Now throw in the annoyance of dealing with the father of the first kid, if he is still around, and you have quite a nice little life you are making there for yourself champ!

    Good Job Dumb-ass!

    2. Widows with Kids: Okay on the surface this is a more sympathetic case. People die, sometimes they die young. Life, or death as it were, happens. If you meet a widow, and all other careful screening has been done, proceed at your own risk.

    Three items of caution or points to consider that come to mind are: her attitude towards you disciplining the kids, (I said normal discipline not act like Attila), you’re always going to have the deceased husband’s family involved in ALL of your family activities like Christmas, etc. You’re also probably going to have to keep some family traditions and ways of doing things that he started. “Well, William used to always do this on Christmas Eve and the kids look forward to it!” (Well William is F’ing DEAD so his vote don’t count! – Oops did I say that out loud?) Finally, you’re competing with a ghost – and you can’t win.

    What do you mean ZLX1? I’ll tell you what I mean. The memory of her first husband, even if in real life he was kind of a shit, will continue to get glossier and glossier in her mind. Everything you say and do, from how you butter your bread to how you plow that ass is going to be compared to him in her head. Because of the trauma and grief associated with the whole scenario I contend he will always be the “better man” in her mind as she gets more and more nostalgic over his memories.

    She is always going to love him more than you, and is probably always going to wish (quite naturally) that he hadn’t passed away and that he was there instead of you. If you decide that you can live with that, and as Rollo said, you are okay with the fact that she married you because you remind her of the man she loved, go for it.

    3. Divorced With Kids: This might be okay, but if you can avoid it, you should. You’ll have to do extremely careful screening. Just generally expect that you will be lied to, a lot, about the reason the divorce happened. Also accept that every ex-husband on planet Earth was “abusive” and when she divorces you, you will be classified as such.

    If you are interested in her for something long term you really need to keep sniffing out the reason the divorce happened subtly and overtly as needed. She will lie to you though or omit things, the ex-husband might say something that may or may not be true.

    Pretty much you can never know 100% that you are getting the whole story. The only thing you can be sure of is that you are not. At some point if you are going to dive in, you’ll have to take your chances based on observed behavior over a long period of time. Like at least all four seasons.

    I would personally run the hell away from any woman that said “We grew apart”, “I got married too young”, “Just wasn’t feeling it or we fell out of love, had to find myself” (she cheated on him). Or the usual crap people say when what they really mean is – “I didn’t feel like keeping my word, so I didn’t. Tada!”

    Yes, people can make a bad choice in a partner when they are young. Yes people can learn from their mistakes. Yes, sometimes the person you married becomes an alcoholic or whatever. Yes people can change to a degree. You just need to be very careful. This stuff has big consequences.

    You can find someone good, and it can work, but you have to be even more careful because if you or they have been through divorce once, it’s not such a big leap to do it again because now you know how it all works. Plus I don’t think you can ever again commit to someone at the same level after you’ve been divorced. Proceed with caution.

    As said above, if you are say 40 and under, you should really try very hard to avoid women with kids and keep pursuing ones without. As you get older you will also run into women who are 35+ and were never married and never had kids, and you might think that this is good, but that has it’s own problems. She is statistically abnormal at that point. You have to ask yourself why, and figure out what level of crazy you can live with. (A good rule of thumb is how many cats does she own? 2 or less is better.)

    If any of the above women are constantly pressing you about moving in together or marriage, you really need stop and ask yourself why she’s doing that. You also really need to stop and ask yourself what the hell you need to get married for?

    If you’re considering getting married to one of these classifications of women because you have strong religious convictions, you’re retarded. What are you doing running around with a single mom or divorced woman Mr. Religious? The only Churchian acceptable option is the widow.

    Finally, when sweet talking you into moving her in or marrying her doesn’t work, they will usually resort to bullying, shaming language or threats to leave you. Good. She just showed you her true character. Bullet. Dodged. You need to walk away at that point.

    So summary would be:

    You want a wife:
    Single woman, never married, no kids is the best bet. Even a crazy over 35+ one. At least you won’t have to deal with her kids or her ex always around in the background. You’ll just have to deal with the fact that almost every male ‘friend’ of hers that you meet is someone she banged and he is laughing at you inside. Lolz. LOLZ I said.

    You want a girlfriend:
    Single woman, never married, no kids.
    Divorced Woman, no kids. / Widow, no kids. (Kind of a toss up)
    You can tell exactly the woman you don’t want and why. Go to any dating site. Find a profile from a woman with kids. It will say MY KIDS COME FIRST! That is why.

    You want someone to occasionally go out with to eat dinner and screw:
    Any of the above. Single, Never-Married Momma would be your last pick though and do your own pregnancy precautions.

    You want a surprise pregnancy and an introduction to the government run child support apparatus:
    Single, Never-Married, Momma for the win!

    (titz)

    Question was asked: What about if you’re a divorced guy and you have the kids?

    My personal experience has been that most women’s initial reaction is that they don’t give a shit because they just naturally assume that you do not have custody of the kids. Naturally.

    Women with kids don’t really care much if you have kids, obviously.

    Younger (under 30), never married, no kids women: they DO care that you have kids.

    Women over 30 without kids, tend not to care as much (key phrase – as much) because they recognize, (like you should), that in a certain age range, it’s more statistically normal to have kids or to have been married. It all comes down to the why and the how of the way you came to have kids or be divorced. They are screening you too ya know.

    There is also a factor in how old your kids are in relation to you and the woman. Chicks can do math. I had my kids pretty young. They will be out of the house in just a couple years so no one needs diapers changed or babysitting.

    If you waited until your thirties to have kids and now you are back out dating and you have toddlers that you have custody of, things are going to be more “complicated” for you. It will be tough, no way around it.

    In general though, I think women are much less focused on this than men are. Perhaps there is some awesome evo-psych reason for this like “People used to get eaten by Saber Tooth Tigers a lot so women in the tribe had to evolve to bond with stranger’s kids for the good of the group!”

    (moar titz)

  40. Holy shit I wrote a lot of stuff. Lolz at me.

  41. Oh and the other thing on ‘chicks can do math’, if you have the kids, and the woman has serious long term interest in you, and possibly wants to have kids. She is definitely figuring your annual income and doing some head calculations of how much is left for her and any new kids with her. They care about that, a lot.

    With dudes: I think on a body agenda level they don’t like the woman with kids so much as first choice.

    With dames: I think it has a lot to do with how many resources you have and what you can spare for her and any new kids.

  42. Changed Man says:

    @ZLX1
    ALWAYS love your posts, man! Don’t ever stop!

  43. @Hope:

    I suppose there’s no way to know for sure without checking in with her ten years after we’ve broken up and she’s had sufficient time to find someone else she DOES want to have kids with, but I don’t agree. When I’m not mucking things up being over-Beta, she is very attracted to me on a chemical level. Athol occasionally mentions that women can literally smell genetic compatibility (would love to read a longer post on that idea, by the way) and that idea instantly clicked with me, because she treats my natural odor as if it were expensive cologne, breathing deeply when she’s close to me, etc.

    She does have deep-seated body issues and gender identity issues that pre-date her relationship with me, and it’s entirely possible that part of the reason we got together was that she was subconsciously looking for someone who would be Beta and co-dependent with her craziness. That’s not meant to make her look like a weight around my ankles or me like a long-suffering saint; a big part of my journey has been realizing that enabling another person’s crazy makes you exactly as crazy as they are. That’s exactly what I’ve been doing, and I take full responsibility for that.

    That’s not mutually exclusive with love, though: it’s entirely possible to love someone who’s bad for you or whose path through life is incompatible with your own, and I think that’s where we’re at. I have no doubt that the love is there, that it’s real, and that it’s mutual. And that’s not going anywhere. Our relationship is almost certainly going to change, but I’ll never stop loving her. If we break up, I’ll still love her. If our relationship stops being a sexual one, I’ll still love her. If we can, eventually, become friends, I’ll love her that way. If I never hear from her again, either because it’s too painful for one or both of us to stay in contact or because one or both of us meets someone else who (rightfully) doesn’t feel comfortable with us maintaining a close relationship with our ex, I’ll love the memory of her.

    I understand and respect Athol’s assertion that love can be reduced to chemical reactions in the brain, but respectfully, I don’t believe that’s all there is to it. I believe that the universe is a continuous whole and that the separations that seem to divide it into discrete parts are illusions. I believe that love is the realization of that continuous connection, and that’s why I believe that love, real love, does not end. Maybe that sounds like a bunch of silly hippie bullshit, but it’s the only way I’ve found to make sense of what I’ve experienced of love in my three decades on this planet.

    Anyway, I don’t want to leave you with the impression that I’m upset with you for suggesting she’s not in love with me or that she doesn’t see me as a good mate. I’m grateful to you for following my story and for giving me your honest opinion. If Blogspot doesn’t play nice on your phone, you can always PM me on the forums.

  44. I am a little surprised by your blog today?! What gives? I was that single mother 25 yrs ago. I met a man who is now my husband & I was the ready-made family. My husband has never regretted marrying me or taking on my son as his own. My husband eventually adopted our oldest son (I had two more sons) and has been this child’s father since he was 13 mths old. Our oldest son grew up knowing that he was adopted & that his birth father was alive what his birth father’s name & where he resided. Did his natural father ever come & visit his son….NEVER, did his natural father want to pay support…NOT ON YOUR LIFE! but I found a man who wanted to be a father and husband and assume all the responsibilities and obligations. I think that your thinking is a little off on this and that I don’t secretly think my spouse is “cuckold” because he took on the responsibility of someone else’s child. In fact the complete opposite I respect this man for taking on this responsibility and he loves this young man just like he loves his natural-born sons, he treats all his sons with the same love, discpline, & respect. My husband taught all his sons the same thing he did not treat one better than the other. I just think you got this post wrong. I still love your posts & keep them coming! Thanks for allowing me to give my opinion because I AM that woman you are talking about in this blog and I have never thought this about my husband. Our oldest has been blessed for having this man step up to the plate something his natural father has NEVER done or was EVER going to do!

  45. My father taught me young about this subject of a woman who already had kids from a previous relationship/divorce.

    He told me “Don’t pay for other people’s mistakes.” It’s been my motto for life. Some guys may be okay with that…but for me kids from a previous relationship or a divorce area dealbreaker. I don’t get involved.

  46. Milf_in_training says:

    As Athol says, give us divorced women with kids a SERIOUS look — which is not the same as an automatic rejection.

    I’m of an age where most women have fully grown and out of the house kids. I had mine late … they are in their early and late teens (two kids). I don’t pretend not to have kids, but in my online profile I mention them briefly (and don’t gush about them!) and stress that I’m NOT looking for a Daddy for them. My oldest doesn’t need or want a Daddy any more, and my youngest is still old enough not to need active parenting.

    I won’t deny the fact that I have kids, and won’t ditch them for a man — but I don’t expect any lover of mine to become the Other Father. And since most single men of my age are also fathers, I’d hope they understand.

    [Anyone who has read my comments and forum posts knows I didn’t “get tired” on my ex … unless you classify tired of being a cuckolded abuse victim that way. I’m a Captainless First Officer who lives on a diet of red pills.]

  47. @Ben

    I’ve followed your story a bit as best I can and checked out your blog. I understand a lot of what you wrote there in this last post and where you are coming from. I felt a lot of the same things, that is, loving someone who was completely bad for me and in my case doing very toxic things to me and my kids. I know what it’s like to hang on to a person or situation out of hope for change to the point of ridiculousness and injury to self.

    One thing to think about is that as humans we are all subject to making a classic mistake: Because we think, do or love a certain way or to a certain level, we mistakenly think that others think, do or love the same way or to the same degree as ourselves. Particularly when we are in a relationship with them and we have the added difficulty of the “truth bias” effect filtering our observation of everything they do and say. We always want to believe them, or to believe the best or to read hope into a hopeless situation because our own mind wants this because it’s easier than facing the facts.

    This is why a friend might say “Why the hell are you with her?” or “Dude she’s crazy, can’t you see that?” Well, actually no you can’t at that moment. Then when you get some distance on the situation you’re like “What the hell was I doing with her? Man I am so glad I met Mrs. Ben after I dumped that chick. Could you imagine what my life would be like if I had married Mrs. Wrong?” Yeah. I can.

    This is why we also say things like “I can’t believe she did that to me!” or “I would have never expected him or her to do that!” Just because a course of action or position was inconceivable to us we think that it is also inconceivable for someone we love to do it or to think it, especially to us. That’s one reason it’s such a shocker when the person you love and trust most, does you wrong or doesn’t love you back the way you love them.

    It inspires many a Country & Western and Blues tune.

    My advice: you have severe oneitis as you already know. It seems that your logical mind has arrived at the correct conclusions about the situation and what is the best course of action for your future. Follow through. Move on, buy yourself a guitar, write a couple bad songs about the love lost.

    Then, find a woman who is right for you in all respects. If you are considering marriage and kids, a woman who is 75% right for you or with whom you have a immovable fundamental difference of choice on a very critical topic (kids), is not enough to take the risk.

    It’s like you’re saying “She’s perfect for me in every way but…” So you hang on to see if you can resolve this unresolvable obstacle. One year turns into two, turns into five, turns into ten. If you didn’t want kids and stuff , then maybe she is perfect for you. But that’s not what you say you want, so she’s not. As painful to you in the short term as it might be to separate it will be a lot less painful and wasteful of both of your years than if you were to continue on flying on a wing and a prayer indefinitely.

    It almost reminds me of quitting smoking. Yeah, these are bad for me, yeah I know I need to quit. I’ll quit tomorrow after I finish this pack. Stalling to avoid the pain of the difficult thing that you need to undertake.

    Bro-Hug.

    P.S. You will not always love her. You think you will, but you won’t. If by some chance you do, please be kind to your next woman and tell her this information so that she can make an informed choice about whether she wants to get married to a man who tells her “I want to marry you, but before we do, you should know that I will always love my ex and I want to keep in touch with her. She will sit on my side of the aisle with my family at our wedding. She can babysit our kids sometimes! Is that cool honey?” (hint: nope)

    Bro-Slap!

    (titz)

  48. @Susan, glad for you and your family if it worked out that way.

    From my observation, you guys are the exception confirming the rule. I bet that looking closely at the post and subsequent comments by Athol, you will find you did what you had to in order to make it happen, starting with marriage first and child close second.

  49. Dear God, Athol. That scenario you describe is something out of Lovecraft. I expected the hypothetical single-mother’s face to crack at the end of it and for Nyarlathotep to creep out. As an 42-year-old virgin, out-of-it-and-proud-of-it irrecoverable omega, I occasionally get asked why I don’t settle for a 2 or less. I’m just going to send them this link now. Beggars *can* be choosers – they can choose to say ‘no’ to any version of that horror story.

  50. “P.S. You will not always love her. You think you will, but you won’t. If by some chance you do, please be kind to your next woman and tell her this information so that she can make an informed choice about whether she wants to get married to a man who tells her “I want to marry you, but before we do, you should know that I will always love my ex and I want to keep in touch with her. She will sit on my side of the aisle with my family at our wedding. She can babysit our kids sometimes! Is that cool honey?” (hint: nope)”

    Understand, “love” in this context does not equate to spending resources (time, money, attention) on a person. I still love my ex. Haven’t talked to her in eight years (we broke up about six months before I met my current woman, and we spoke maybe twice in passing after that), but I still love her. She was a psycho of a caliber that makes my current woman look well-adjusted and normal, but I still love her. Every once in a while I wonder how she’s doing nowadays, and I hope like hell that she worked through her various issues and is happy now, but I have no desire to look her up and find out, because if she hasn’t, there is exactly El Zilcho I could do to help her, and trying would just screw up my life instead of fixing hers.

    So no, if my current woman and I break up, I may keep in contact with her or I may not. She will not attend my wedding, and she will not babysit my kids. I will still love her, but love is one thing, and spending love, resources, and attention on a person is another. The latter would be wholly inappropriate if I were attempting to make a marriage work and start a family with another woman.

  51. TL;DR version of the above:

    Love is not a finite resource. Time, money, and attention are. Therefore, I intend to worry very little about where I spend the former, and very much about where I spend the latter.

  52. I’m a first person example of the topic of the day. Wish I had the Red Pill 6 years ago. Athol & comments covers everything I have been through, but not 100% of what is written applies to my situation, maybe 20%. Perhaps I’ll “Point/Counter Point” in the Forum. In any case I will say to one and all faced with the same situation: Run ! Run fast and swift and don’t stop until you are totally out of breath.

  53. Ben, it took me like half an hour, but I finally managed to post on your blog.

    I also second what ZLX1 said. Hindsight is 20/20.

  54. @Invisible Husband (and other men that are already stuck in his situation) :

    “I have applied the MAP, but since she was never into me in the first place, she will never be into me. Athol states this in his book . What does a man do once he is already in this situation?”

    Your odds are lower for a turnaround, but if you become more alpha than when you met her, you do stand a chance. A lot of guys see a quick turnaround in their wife and in their relationship because running the MAP simply helps them regain the alpha that attracted their wife in the first place. You are in for a harder slog because whatever alpha you had was not what she was attracted to. Take heart in the anecdotes that there are arranged marriages where the spouses learn to love and respect each other over time.

    Become the man your wife would leave you for. You need to take the MAP to its conclusion and realize that you will need to learn additional alpha behaviour if you want to have your wife that attracted to you. Figure out which alpha traits your wife admires that also align with your own life goals and focus on those first.

    Also, do a little fake it until you make it. For example, they may not follow you around the amusement park on their own, but by following them instead of making yourself part of the group, you were reinforcing the idea that you don’t matter and are disrespecting yourself. Do a bit of anticipating and be in the front lines of the group anyway and act like the leader. Say “Let’s go get ice cream” Who the hell wouldn’t follow you for that? Just start to assert leadership at times you know you will win and eventually you will have built up a history of leading to successful outcomes. It is your job to teach people to respect you.

  55. Great post, Athol.

  56. @Ben

    Hmm, it seems that you are saying that you have a bit of a pattern here with picking women who are not appropriate for you or your long term interests and maybe hanging in there too long after you realize that is the case. You said the previous girlfriend was super-crazy, and the current one is not a match for you in some critical areas and she has had some body image and gender identity issues.

    Don’t take this harsh, as in my mind I’m not using a harsh tone of voice, (I lied) WTF? is wrong with YOU that you keep choosing to put yourself in these situations? Don’t worry I had to ask myself the same question.

    First I wanted to point the finger at my ex and blame her for everything. Then I had to look in the mirror and point the finger (the middle one) at myself. After all, I picked her and I stuck with her beyond the point of being retarded. So I had to ask myself the tough questions.

    The question being: “What the hell is going on with me that I would pick someone, who I had to know in my gut, was wrong/was going to do me wrong?” Specifically for you it would seem a good question would be “What is going on inside you that makes you pick ‘project’ women to get with and hang onto them so long?”

    Why do you do that?

    Bro-Hug

    (titz)

  57. @ZLX1:

    When it comes to the ex, I know exactly what was wrong with me: I was desperate, wanted some sex (not intercourse, thankfully, just fooling around), and she was close at hand and willing. Her having been my first sexual partner, I became infatuated and didn’t give it up as a bad job when I should have.

    With my current woman, it’s more complicated than that, because her issues are of the sort that didn’t become immediately apparent until we’d already been together for years. And because, unlike my ex, we really WERE right for each other in many ways (just not, as it turns out, one of the most important ones). And I thought those ways in which we were right for each other could make up for the ones in which we weren’t, and I was wrong.

    Now, if/when I find myself in the market for a new Mrs. Ben, I feel a lot more confident in my ability to find one that’s right for me, because I am much more conscious of what exactly I’m looking for. Not that a refresher course through all of Athol’s posts tagged “Wife Selection” wouldn’t hurt either, of course, but that’s a concern for later. (-:

  58. Off The Grid says:

    Ben, your relative inexperience with other women makes your current “love” to the gf you have now feel stronger. I was in a similar situation when I was younger. I dated a woman for 4 years when I was 16-20. I loved and adored her, but she didn’t want children. We even had a pregnancy scare and she talked about aborting the baby. I had plenty of evidence that she just wasn’t a good enough person for marriage, but I was hooked on how hot she was and the great kinky sex. Also, to be honest, I felt special with her because she was a 9 or 10 that everyone drooled over. She would walk by and every man’s head would turn, but I was the one fucking her. I thought that’s what I wanted, but at my core I realized she wasn’t a good person, so I never considered marrying her even though I “loved” her. Honestly, I was not confident I could get “better” than her either. I knew I was fairly studly with good future earning potential. But I didn’t have much money or experience courting other women. Eventually she grew tired of my failure to offer her more commitment and we “grew apart” and became Fuck buds for awhile. Shortly after we broke up she got her tubes tied. Honestly. I consider any woman that is biologically capable and able to obtain a secure marriage with a good man, but just chooses to reject the notion of ever having children, to be one of the ultimate red flags and absolute signs of selfishness a woman can demonstrate. It would tell me she won’t be there to nurture you when you are old or sick. She is too self-absorbed to care for another life outside her own. Fast forward to today, I am very happily married to a woman that is such a better person than she ever was. I have two goregous children that closely resemble me and my wife that add joy to my life on a daily basis. She is an incredible mother and nurtures my needs too. I spend my days wondering what I admire more her beauty or her character. I can tell you without a doubt I made the right choice.

  59. +1 to everything ZLX1 says above, especially the long first post.

  60. Jeez, lot of comments. Ian said it best: Long courtship.

    In my case, it helped that I knew her beforehand. I knew her well before the divorce, and I saw him being a dick first hand (including, once telling me, “I have to hear her bitch all the time.” Unless she completely stopped bitching all the time magically when we got together (and I never saw her bitching then, either)… yeah. His behavior hasn’t improved (hell, the man has a boat he named “the other woman”, and it was near true). Not all divorced men are victims: some of them are overgrown children*.

    I also have to admit — I sent out signals that I was interested long before she did. I had a bit of Oneism with her, and White Knight-ism, to be honest. And it’s working out. I didn’t need to make any sort of ultimatum. It’s been a thrilling ride because we both enjoy each other’s company (both in the bed/couch/over the table and not).

    But at the same time, I’d caution any of my friends getting involved in a similar situation — because I know the down right *MESSED UP* stuff that screwed up women can do (And inflict). I was *very* cautious, and knew her *very* well before we committed to anything. I get that I’m one of the lucky ones.

    Man, I should go back to having a blog. I have a lot I could write about…

  61. @OffTheGrid:

    “Ben, your relative inexperience with other women makes your current “love” to the gf you have now feel stronger.”

    Doubtless. It’s all a bit of a moot point in any case; call it love or infatuation or one-itis or whatever you want, I can’t be happy with her and she can’t be happy with me. I’d tend to disagree that not wanting kids makes a person “selfish”; the planet is overpopulated and Earth’s resources are finite, if there are people who don’t mind being genetic dead-ends and want to leave more for my descendants, good on’em, and there are other ways to contribute to society in any case. But agree or disagree on that point, it doesn’t change the basic facts of my situation.

  62. andronicus says:

    Simple solutions:
    If you have any reservations at all about her, wear a damn condom, with spermacide. You can easily split if there are any signs of craziness, fatness, laziness, disrespect, or withholding.
    2) Younger women are, all else being equal,better.
    3) choose educated, healthy, employed women for mates. Avoid girls who are no-job slobs; they’re extremely unlikely to improve.
    4) work on yourself. Obtain strong job skills in a well-paying field, hit the gym and eat well, and have interesting,manly hobbies. I enjoy hunting, fishing, skiing, and my guitar.
    5) look down. There should be two of them there. If they don’t seem to be functioning, lift weights, be active, and/or get your low-T level fixed.
    warning bells are there for strong reasons. If she’s embarassibg to be seen with, or if she’s unpleasant often enough,make no bones about leaving. You’d be surprised how hard Princess Fiona might work, on her body and her personality, if she realizes she’s about to lose a good thing.

  63. Joe Commenter says:

    A vasectomy is your best friend when it comes to dating divorced moms.

  64. Mike: Actually, for a single mother, she sounds “safe”ish. Of course, I don’t know her, so take no guarantees from that. If you’re sure about not wanting kids, then she may be ideal, especially with the kids leaving the nest soon enough.

    Ben: You already know the answer yourself. Give up on the oneitis. She’s got issues and you should never enter a marriage with a woman with that number of issues. Even putting that aside, the kids/no kids is a certain deal killer. Cut your losses, and move on to another woman before you waste more years of your life. You can’t change her, you cannot save her.

    Susan: Generalizations are not right in every case, just most of them. Congratulations for being a single mom who’s not batshit crazy and who did not suffer unduly for her mistakes and who found a man who accepted you as you are and are still with each other. Success under those conditions is possible, but rare, much rarer than you’d believe.

  65. @pdwalker:

    Not looking for an answer; like you say, I know what I have to do. Can’t do it all in a day, though.

  66. Hi all,

    I am dating a freshly divorced woman with two kids. I was the one who probably made her leave him.
    It’s uber complicated, I have also been divorced (no kids) and she left me for someone else..
    I want everyones advise. I’m pretty sure I have to break it off, but bloody hell she is a ballerina. Yes, truly a ballerina and I’m infatuated with her beauty..still many warning signs since taking the red pill.
    She is from the Czech rep, me from Australia and met her traveling solo last year. She’s the sexiest woman I have ever met, and her husband was out of town (of course I’ve heard all the stories on how her was abusive to her..) and although she said he cheated on her a few times, she’s doesn’t really know %100. she told me once she slept with someone during her marrige as revenge but felt horrible afterwards..anyway so.. I’m at this point where I either move in with her or tell her it’s over. As good as the sex is, I have a deep feeling I’m beta payday to her. Still we have a connection, we seem to think similar and have similar goals..and I feel torn completely..if she was prepared to leave her husband for me, well what’s stopping her from doing that again?
    Two little kids girls as well she has and I can’t help but think, I’m just an idiot in too deep, but feel some obligation as I relentlessly and utterly pursued her while her husband was overseas. I feel pretty bad about that..but as they say, be the other man ;) should I back out, I’m 34 next month and think maybe I can someone without kids. Life can be complicated! did I mention she’s a ballerina?!

  67. Ben:

    I hear ya, but remember life is too short to waste it on “cannot be’s”. Every second is a gift not to be wasted.

  68. Apologies for my horrible typos and mistakes. Beer and small iPhone used to type this…

  69. @pdwalker:

    True, but there’s something to be said for breaking it off the right way, so that I can do it without regrets. Another year in this situation would be too much. Another week or two? I don’t consider that a waste. That’s an investment against those sleepless nights wondering if I did the right thing.

  70. @Rellz…

    Just remember…if she cheated on him, she will cheat on you. Don’t get married to her, or get her pregnant. In fact I’d just leave.

    I love it when women use the “revenge” line for cheating. Like a guy who is cheating on you is going to feel bad that she went out and cheated on him. More than likely the guy was cheating on her because she wasn’t fulfilling his needs.

  71. @ The Dude

    This post has really hit home for me..(thanks Athol, been lurking for a few months now!)

    Yeah, I know all these things..problem is I have become her white knight a little too much. No way I’d marry her, Czech rep has one of the highest divorce rates in the word (something like 55%) and cheating is like drinking water for them over there. She has many quailities I like, she’s fit, has a body of a 22 year old, speaks 4 languages and enjoys the arts and history which is hard to find in girls from my Country…She knows how to please a man.. So I figure it wasn’t exactly her that wasn’t meeting his needs, He has opportinity working overseas in an orchestra (lots of cute piano/violinists!) and she was lonely. Still..she knew that when she married him and I told her as much. Sounds like he was over Alpha, aloof coming home late all the time, lying and cheating..so didn’t push her Beta buttons when she needed it.
    In my opinion she’s typical I’m not haappy (like my ex) She’s even said he’s a great father! WTF! Seriously I told her to go back to him.
    Still I don’t want to self-sabotage but it’s still so fresh after having my heart torn out and burnt to a crisp in my last marrige..But I think we are both just looking for something seeking pleasure and refuge in eachother.

  72. Off The Grid says:

    Rellz, don’t over think it. Just have a good time with her without offering any commitment in return as long as you want and then move on with your life. Don’t lie to her about your intentions. Don’t marry her unless you are ok with having a cheating wife that will leave you in a few years when you stop jumping through all her hoops.

  73. ImAnonymous says:

    Rellz,

    I’m trying to think what I’d do in your situation, and this is what comes to mind:

    I’d never want to willing mess around with another mans wife. Ever. I can imagine how I would feel if I had it happen to me. (I did, but I didn’t know until much, much later as she hid all evidence of him – I first learned of him when he showed up at my workplace with my business card all angry)

    If I did actively peruse another mans woman (I married a ballerina, and at 50 her body still takes my breath away so I can understand the attraction) because of how she makes my hormones roar and I got her, I guess in my blue pill days I would have married her provided she still wanted kids and have those kids with me. If that meant raising her daughters too, I’d be ok with that. I would insist on a longer courtship though, assuming that I could keep enough blood running to the big head instead of the little head.

    I have a few friends whose advice I would trust. I’d have them meet her more than once and have them give me their opinion.

    If I saw any red flags, I’d take them out and examine them carefully, in time and space away from her mind bending influences.

    I’d think about her age, assuming that ‘we’ planned to have children. Could she afford the time for us to become more sure of the relationship before committing to another child?

    I’d have to think about if I could keep her interest.

    I’d have to think about what I think she really wants. Passport? A step up while she looks for a man with a larger income? Me?

    And then (a ballerina, you say?) I’d probably through all that out the window the next time I had her in my arms and just do whatever the hell I wanted to do (mmmm, ballerina)

    This is why I won’t mess around with another mans wife. The problem is hard enough without adding that into the mix.

    Good luck. You’ll need it.

    If you go for it, remember to stay Alpha (with the beta) in order to keep her attraction, assuming her attraction is real. With Athols advice, you might just be able to pull it off.

    (a dancer physique was always a little bit of a turn on for me in case it was not apparent)

  74. @ ImAnonymous

    Nice to know even at 50 she’s still turns you on :)

    Yeah she’s magic in the sack. I can imagine getting old with that body, but I have to confess I would love to see he prego with my kid. It’s the only way I’d be happy if I was to move in with her…I wouldn’t want to be daddy to two girls and not have some investment of my own.

    We’ve talked kids before, She know’s I want em.
    I’m sure I give off the right beta provider with a seasoning of dominant alpha persona (which is what I wanted to do) and she’s willing to do whatever I want with her body, anything I want…so if I lose this, and If we do live together than I will leave. She knows that.
    I would be possesive to much I think if I lived with her. She has lots of Male friends from the theatre, most of ‘em gay at least that’s what she tells me. Still She would def have a kid with me, but I’ve been a little too available to her.. I’ve been gaming her as well, but I have to sometimes force myself to go off the grid so her hamster can spin a little. Still early stages but if you looked at her body, you wouldn’t know she has had kids…darn and she likes to be spanked. Hard.
    problem is how many hoops do I have to jump thru, and it only takes one fight and she’s revenge f#@king someone else…so she would take a lot of work to keep happy (the good looking ones always do)

  75. Rellz;

    I’m not sure if a 50 year old is even able to get pregnant again, if she hasn’t already gone through menopause she will shortly, and even if she can get pregnant the odds for birth defects, mental retardation and other issues in the baby tend to go up the older the mother is. Also, she’d be almost 70 when the kid graduated high/secondary school! And that’s if she got preggers now! Would she even want that? Would YOU? Don’t know how old you are but if you’re her age or older, do you really want to be an old man dealing with a teenager??? Dear lord the very idea makes me shudder.

  76. @Reliz

    Lemme use my Webz ESP:

    Interesting: Time to move in with her or it’s over eh?

    She could just be playing you like a chump to bankroll her departure from her “evil – abusive” hubby and give her a softer landing out of matrimony. Does she want to come to Australia? Anything you need to do to facilitate that for her? You going to move in together? Which country, and who is signing the lease and putting up the cash friend?

    Is she living in Czech Republic and you’re in Australia at the moment? I’m sure she’s being faithful to you right now. Lolz.

    If you’re looking for red flags, she’s got ‘em in spades, and so do you frankly coming off a bad divorce and looking for love in all the wrong places. You’re even hearing her tell you things about her evil husband that I’m sure your ex wife was telling people about you, like the guy she left your for. 99% chance it’s all bullshit, but you already know that.

    If I was your friend I would be telling you that it appears that you’re thinking with your dick. Can’t say I blame you and I’ve been known to do that a time or to. Just saying, you’re thinking with your dick and you’re going to pay with your wallet and your heart getting stomped. Maybe when her husband finds out about you, you pay a price in blood as well. Not sure how they roll over there in the Czech Repub.

    I’m sure she’s a sweet piece of ass, but she sounds really good at playing you to get what she wants out of her man at the moment. There you are thinking that you convinced her and led her down this path. Chuckle.

    You might just be a convenient tool to further her exit plan. If you marry her or move in with her you can pretty much count on two things: 1. she’s the kind of woman that will cheat on her husband. 2. You’ll be cheated on at some point and left high and dry to foot the bill. If you know that going into this situation and you are okay with it, then cool. Just make sure you paternity test if you do have kids with her, and get all the sex in that you can so you get your money’s worth out of it.

    Good luck and hope it works out to your satisfaction. There are lots of other women that are hot, and not married, with no kids, that are less drama. You’re 34, hell yes you can find a young cute thing with no kids.

    Yeah I know, sometimes the dramatic stuff is what makes it all seem so much more exciting, but dude. Really. Stop thinking with your dick. If you want to bang her, that’s up to you. Why on Earth are you talking about moving in, taking care of her kids, having more kids? With who? This whore? Are you nuts?

  77. Oh and Reliz, earlier in the thread I asked Ben what was wrong with him that he keeps picking “crazy” chicks to be with.

    So, Reliz, what’s wrong with you that you seem to keep picking out women that are the unfaithful type to get with? Why do you seek them out? Why do you do that to yourself when you know it will come to no good end for you?

    Find that answer then you can get on the path to getting what you might really want. Unless you just really like the whorish type, then rock on.

  78. MacNut,

    I might be reading the comments wrong, but I think you’re mixing the commenters women up.

    Reliz,

    how. old is this woman you’re seeing?

  79. Hi all thanks for the advise,

    She’s 34 same age as me…and yes, I am thinking with my Dick.

    I doubt she’s faithful to me, of course I assume that.. Yes, I want to move OS, but it will likely be in a different city, or country( this was my plan before I met her) depending on the work I can get.

    A few assumptions about my EX however, she was a Virgin when I met her, we had a 10 year relationship, 2 married. She is also a religious person, I thought she would be loyal. Turns out Darlock is correct, Hypergamy doesn’t care, she got her 5 mins of Alpha. Christian bitches are just as bad as everyone else. If I knew some red pill stuff I could have saved it. Oh well, no kids thank god..so chalk that one up to experience.

    @ ZLX1
    I agree with most of what you all say, it’s also possible the EX could hunt me down if I was there as well. I think I’d be ok, but again not sure. I’ll buy a knife :)
    I know she bad mouth’s her ex, but I tell her to not talk to me about it and it’s stopped. I know EVERYBODY’s ex husband was an abusive arsehole, this is just how all Women are, so I just chuckle and nod my head.

    I know she was looking for a way out of the marrige, I am just the ticket she needed.

    Still I’m not that invested and haven’t promised anything at this stage, other than I’d TRY to get some work overseas, and again made no promises to live in her City (Which is fine for me) she could be my weekend mistress, a quick train ride away maybe? Also during the week nights I plan on finding one of those cute, hot not married girls with good wife material.
    I’ve showed her a good time, she has been grateful to give whatever I’ve spent back with as much sex as I want. If it doesn’t work out, I have a home that I will rent out in Australia that I can move back in no problems.

    I may not have total control over certain things I my life, but believe me I’m not going to marry this Girl, She can find some other chump for that..we’ll see who can out manipulate eachother before we both get tired of it?

    I plan on enjoying the ride.

  80. @Reliz

    Devilish sir. Lolz. Just watch out for yourself and don’t get suckered. Watch that wallet like a hawk.

  81. This is by far the saddest blog I have ever read. I mean you just can’t win. Penalizing someone who is widowed or divorced for having kids is what has so many mothers hurting and hating their kids. As a woman you almost can’t help but look at your kids as these huge obstacles even if you love them. Yet, I firmly accept reality and it is by far the only reason that I will stay married to my husband until the day I die…because we have kids. Even if I waited until they were grown I would be in my 40’s. Men don’t want older women. If I leave now at 25 by me having 5 children I can forget it. I can see smoke from the track shoes already. There is just never a good time for any woman to have kids ever.

  82. Tia,

    Just what do you want anyway?

    No one is “against” widows, just wary and for some good reasons. The “divorced” or “never married” are just huge danger signs that a man would be a complete idiot to ignore.

    However, if you’re a red pill woman, relatively sane and have some appreciation of how relationships work and need to work to make them stable over the long term, then there are many good times to have children. Why should children be an obstacle, assuming you don’t want to slut around.

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