Why The Wannabe Other Man Tests You First

Sometimes the comments bear repeating…

Eric Ventura:  There is this misguided and inaccurate notion in the PUA community that if you behave in a territorial manner, you are being an insecure “beta” or “AFC”. If you look at the natural world, including our own evolutionary history men who are naturally predominantly ALPHAS are anything but aloof when their female is being poached by another male. If Alphas are anything, we are territorial and extremely comfortable in conflict with other men. I get and agree with the aloofness thing, but i only do that with women. I’ve learned very early on that to do that with other men, especially alphas is way too risky. (I grew up in a rough neighborhood) I don’t get how these PUA’s reached that conclusion; but then again what do you expect from a community of predominately beta men who only mimic alpha behavior. I guess they are bound to miss a few things.

Athol:  I think it’s an important distinction to make with the whole aloofness toward other men. When someone belittles you, makes a move on your girl or otherwise attempts to take you down a peg doesn’t matter… he’s trying to dominate you. If he does that to you in front of your wife, he’s making a Display of Higher Value at your expense, for the direct purpose of impressing your wife that he’s a better man. If you have a basically non-reactive approach, it’s left to the observer to decide whether or not you’re (1) just too much of a big fish to bother worrying about him, (2) clueless about what’s going on, or (3) a pussy.

Now obviously some dude doing this sort of thing in front of your wife a couple times, isn’t likely to make her ask you to hold her purse while she blows him. But if you allow this pattern of interaction to persist, you’re basically framing him as the Alpha Male and it’s fairly predictable that he’ll slowly start making traction on your wife.

Also of major consideration is that the public negative comments about you, are merely tests of your reaction to see if he’s good to go on trying to escalate things with your wife behind your back. Basically if you’re submissive enough to not bump back on verbal stuff… and you catch him banging your wife..  you’re going to more likely burst into tears rather than physically fight back about it. The capacity for violence by the cheated on husband is a primal response and a serious concern to the other man. Or put another way, if you bang the wife of a U.S. Army Sniper, you need to be aware that courts typically don’t issue 2000 yard restraining orders.

Anyway… my readers are smart… from the forum…

Rob:  I was at a BBQ of a friends house (a real friend). He was filling the pool for the kids and a guy his wife knew from high school was there with his family, among many others. My friends wife (Sue) asked where he (Joe) was. I said out front filling the pool and the old high school fellow (Dave) said “That seems about right, lady business for Joe”. Sue shrugged and went around to find go find him and later they came back tithe BBQ. Over the grilling Dave complained that Joe was supposed to cook like a man and not use his lady techniques in front of everyone. “It embarrasses Sue”. Small laughter and Joe quipped back. Later Joe was cleaning up some empty bottles and cans that had accumulated and Dave said Joe’s tits were a little to small for a good server. Joe joked back about not wanting Daves “tip”. All good natured at the time.

Joe offers to drive a car a few blocks away for some guests as my wife and I help clean up. Dave is bringing in some dishes and notices him gone. As his family is leaving my wife heads out to collect the kids and I leave the room to help. I overhear Dave say “How can he leave that ass unprotected. I must come off as too trust-worthy.” That’s it. Between the posts Athol cites above (The Third Wheel  and The Propinquity Effect) that I had read and a code between real friends that was the end of the line.

I caught him in the driveway and said goodbye and shook his hand. I told him “if you come again be sure I know I will be looking for any reason to kick your ass”. His stunned look and denial of what was really being said were met with “So you worry about just protecting your own ass”. He said he had been friends long enough to joke like that. I told him to go fuck himself.

Joe and I share a lot of history and have been there for each other since before women we’re good to us and us to them. We are friends.

When I told him what happened he shrugged and told me to come along. He drove to Dave’s house and knocked on the door and spoke with Dave for a good five minutes while I sat in the car wondering where a body could be hid at this hour. I don’t know exactly what was said but I am sure it’s enough to keep him wary.

Athol:  Well played by Rob. Also worth noting how Dave immediately backed down from Rob. The verbal put downs are probes to see if he can get away with it, as soon as he gets called on it, by someone that looks willing to partake in non-verbal negotiations, Dave immediately turned all submissive.

Hu-mans are an exciting species aren’t they…

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Comments

  1. pdwalker says:

    A bad sign is that Joe’s wife did’t speak up at any time.

    Send Joe to MMSL quick.

    It is good that Joe went to have a word with Dave, but even better if he told his wife that he went and had a “little word” with that asshole.

  2. Angeline says:

    She may be in the same mode as the letter writer here, who *did* bring it up to her husband, but was told “it’s OK, we kid like that”, or didn’t bring it up at all for fear of interfering in the friendship. I’d also be hesitant lest it come off as ‘Mommy’ coming to the rescue.

    And I am struck by Eric V’s sentence: “(alpha) men are territorial and extremely comfortable in conflict with each other.” I have only come to really see that this is so in the last 10 years or so, and I think that this basic difference between men and women, more than anything else, is why feminism has had such traction and done so much damage. We got this notion pushed down our throats that conflict, driven by men and their territorial instinct, was at the root of all troubles – wars, criminal activity, abuse of women. Instead of removing evil from the population, we went into this mode that anyone can fall into a paint can of evil at any time, therefore we must stamp out any aggressiveness whatsoever.

    I admit to being very, very uncomfortable with conflict. “But ‘They’ might get angry if I voice my opinion, or my man does.” (I’m conflict-avoidant enough that I’ve never said it out loud lol) “They” is a very present force in woman-brain. I have to fight it taking over, except in my own territorial venues – child in danger, animal being mistreated – where the maternal takes over the social niceties. I have to stifle my own massive discomfort and recognize that this is a man’s prerogative, that I may see the value of once I’m out of the zone of disagreement. That my desire to make peace and make nice is driven by fear and may not be the best solution.

    When my guy caught his wife with another man in his house coming back early from deployment, his squad members supported him in a singularly male way – they rousted him out of his funk in the billets, took him on a pub-crawl, got him roaring drunk, and proceeded to belly-burn everyone, which ended up with some actual punches thrown and some guy hugs and laughing. He got misty-eyed telling this story, as a manly, holding him up and kind gesture. I’m trying to get it as he’s telling it, he’s laughing and saying, “man they beat the shit out of me” – “So, they gave you something safe to be mad at?” “Yes, that’s part of it, because they could see me dangerously close to killing the guy (he was reassigned within 24 hours).” The very next morning they had a 5 mile battalion run, being led by a West Point student on post for summer training. The adulterer was right beside my guy. He was talking to him loudly through the whole run, asking how could he fuck one of his squad-mate’s wife? My guy called cadence for part of the run, and it was made up on the spot from “I’m gonna kill … the communists” to “the man who fucked my wife”. The student tried to make him stop until a few of the sgt.s had a word with him. Makes me a tad concerned what they’re teaching at West Point. I feel sure that a woman in that spot would not have listened to the wiser 1st sgt and made it stop.

    These same guys also stood around in a protective circle (not letting it go too far, but not letting anyone stop it, either) while my guy had the other guy on his back, knees on arms, hand around his throat, demanding to know what actually happened, and making it clear he was going to kill him if the other guy went near his wife again. Obviously, the wife was the problem, but the support of the other men was was got him through it. I wish more men had that support and reinforcement for being male. They can’t get it from women. They can get kindness and caring, but not that bucking up. Not that message that it’s not only OK, but expected and respected to get angry and defend your territory.

  3. Angeline says:

    Clarification: the *other* guy was reassigned in 24 hours. The military often moves exceedingly slow, except when they need to, then it can be blindingly fast.

  4. Highlander says:

    Angeline , That’s the problem these days, men seldom have any “tribal affiliation” anymore to back them up or prevent them from doing something stupid. On top of that modern society does not allow men to take charge and deal with a situation in a manner that keeps crap like infidelity from happening.

    I know in my case if I’d been able to find out that some Bas%tard was attempting to snag my wife online ahead of time and I could have confronted him and probably beat the living Sh%t out him, it would have ended right there. In the past the cops would have looked the other way and just about everyone would have backed my actions. Today though, as I explained to my kids, such an action would result in me being jailed, losing access to them, and probably end up having the OM living in my paid for house, with my kids and sleeping in my bed…

  5. Jane says:

    I’ve seen this happen so much and the husband being mocked just shrugs while the wife rolls her eyes. Uncomfortable for everyone present.

  6. Malgayne says:

    Out of curiosity, I’d love to hear some examples of effective, Alpha ways of responding to that kind of ribbing?

    If it’s on your turf, “Fuck off. No seriously, fuck off, get off my property.” is a classic.

  7. Wudang says:

    It feels very good for a man to read a woman write something like you just did Angeline. That`s quite a bit of understanding of how men operate and what they need you showed there.

  8. I'm a man says:

    These situations are an excellent fitness test for the wife.
    If you get wind of her having these conversations or she’s allowing them to continue, it needs to be addressed quickly and forcefully with her. She will warn the interloper that her alpha man is not happy and his advances are not happening.

    @highlander….Modern society dictates you dump the cheating bitch.

  9. Rob says:

    “A bad sign is that Joe’s wife did’t speak up at any time.
    Send Joe to MMSL quick.
    It is good that Joe went to have a word with Dave, but even better if he told his wife that he went and had a “little word” with that asshole.”

    I went home after the drive over to Davea place so I wasn’t in the bedroom with Joe when he explained where he was. I am sure that he told his wife that I had overheard what I did and he dealt with it. I have since seen Sue shoot down Dave as a “Dick” to her other highschool friends and he hasn’t shown up at events with the same crowd invited.

    As an aside. I once rescheduled a hockey game my platoon was playing to match another platoons after I discovered that a member of the other platoon had an affair with one of my guys wife. As an officer I could do little to interact with the soldier but I was able to do this small thing so my guy and his section mates could act in an above board manner. Arms get broken in any contact sport all the time. The other mans friends didn’t even try to protect him. The arena medic (base rink) treated him by the book but roughly. My CO called me on it and let me off the hook afte a lot of shrugging and “I guess it had to be done”s.

    The veneer that society has lacquered us with to tamp down this response is thick. The Army peels it back but it makes it almost worse. There are times when I want to react to the full extent o fmy ability and due rage but cannot. Railing against that restraint hits when you know what can be done. Some men just know it cannot and let it be.

  10. Off The Grid says:

    The strategy of a PUA is different than that of a married man. That is why not all PUA artist principles carry over to marriage. In the eyes of a PUA, having another man come take a woman you are seeing is no big deal. Women are fungible and low investment. You will always have another one waiting around the corner. No one woman becomes worth a lot of drama and investment. Once you get married the principles change. All of your eggs are in one basket (or one woman’s ovaries to be more specific.) In marriage you are wise to do everything possible to protect your wife’s attraction for you alone. When you’re single investing too much time, energy, emotion, and drama into one woman is a losing strategy. The key is to find one woman that doesn’t require Herculean efforts to maintain a marriage.

  11. I'm a man says:

    @Off the Grid +1 “The key is to find one woman that doesn’t require Herculean efforts to maintain a marriage.”

    I like the fantasy of physically harming a male who has interfered in my life but the sad reality is the “other guy” was just being an alpha, perhaps he has found a women that was very interested in getting involved with him. Her marital status is a bonus since it means he has a lower STD risk and no short term commitment issues. As an alpha male i expect other men to find my wife attractive and make contact with her. There will always be men who are more alpha than me and that’s a simple reality. Physically engaging him is a bad idea….telling him to move along is very appropriate. However, if he challenges you physically, and is successful, her attraction would just rise (towards him!).

    I’m sure many women here LOVE the images of men battling for access to their loins. It’s a no lose scenario for her. Wikipedia says “In North America, romance novels are the most popular genre in modern literature, comprising almost 55% of all paperback books sold in 2004″ I’d say women like these scenarios the same as many men like porn.

    There is a very good reason why our modern society does not punish infidelity, its human nature and more natural than long term monogamy in my opinion. (BTW – I’ve been married 20+ years). Many men are unknowingly raising other men’s children and in some populations this statistic is close to 7%. The orchestration describe by Rob is simply a group assault but it does assure success that the dirty alpha dog won’t return.

    At the end of the day a good beating changes nothing, the guy still must deal with the wife who now has another man’s semen insider her. And no matter what she says, she probably harbors great disdane for the husband.

  12. Malgayne says:

    Let’s say you have a friend who tests you by teasing, as Dave does in the story above. In this case, though, it’s an actual friend of yours—let’s say one who doesn’t have any conscious designs on your wife, and is simply subconsciously challenging other males in the area for dominance to make himself look and feel good. How would you recommend responding in such a case?

    Here’s how I imagine it going:

    Public Challenge: “Hey dude, that’s not cool. Don’t make me look like a pussy in front of my wife.” Everyone tells you to loosen up and they’re just teasing (because, in fact, they are—even though it does have a negative effect on your position), and that you shouldn’t get so upset over nothing. I look paranoid about losing my wife and the other male looks cool and unconcerned. Bad.

    Private Challenge: More or less the same.

    Immediate Action: “Get out of my house.” I look like an alpha but my friendship with the other male is damaged. Bad.

    Physical Confrontation: Somebody gets beat up. Bad.

    The only answer that I can think of that actually puts me ahead is out-teasing the teaser, and that runs the risk of you coming out on the losing end if your friend has a quicker wit than you do. How would you proceed?

  13. Danceny says:

    @Malgayne: There is no good answer, and yeah, the least-bad one is to always be more socially dominant. That means wittier, having the stronger frame, having the implied support of the group, and so on. I believe solving this exact problem in increasingly complex social contexts is exactly what drove the huge cortical expansion from Australopithecus to H. sapiens.

  14. RedPillNewb says:

    Let’s say you have a friend who tests you by teasing, as Dave does in the story above. In this case, though, it’s an actual friend of yours—let’s say one who doesn’t have any conscious designs on your wife…

    Some teasing between friends is normal and OK. But the explicitly sexual stuff that brought this topic up seems totally off-limits in mixed company to me. Nothing wrong with calling it out on that basis, and if it continues, then the guy isn’t an actual friend.

  15. Rob says:

    That problem was exactly what I was trying to get at in my forum response. A real friend doesn’t do that in a setting where that damage can be done. Private teasing or in a small core group of insiders is really the only place it’s tolerable.

  16. Eric Ventura says:

    Immediate Action: “Get out of my house.” I look like an alpha but my friendship with the other male is damaged. Bad.

    Why is this Bad? If a person cannot respect you in your own home, why would you want to remain friends with them????

  17. Malgayne says:

    Because there are a lot of occasions where this kind of thing can happen and no genuine harm is intended.

    Example: I don’t like beer. My drink of choice is hard cider. I was recently out with my wife and a few close friends that I’ve known since high school. I ordered a cider, and one of those friends made the obvious joke at my expense about how it was a girly drink, and how I was too much of a pussy to drink beer. I don’t remember it exactly but it was something like “Would you like an adorable little umbrella to go with that?”

    If I responded to that remark by telling him to GTFO, then everyone in the room is going to (rightly) look at me like I’ve lost my mind. It’s a gentle, harmless remark by which he meant no real disrespect, and which CERTAINLY wasn’t intended to allow him to move in on my wife. But it was also nonetheless an alpha move, and by letting it pass I submit to him and cement his status as the alpha of the group, which slightly lowers my wife’s attraction to me.

    I’m not going to end a friendship over a remark like this—I’ve said way worse to him. But is the answer, then, just to be clever and stay ahead of him?

  18. Eric Ventura says:

    If you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it is “a gentle, harmless remark by which he meant no real disrespect” and if everyone else at the table agrees with that perception, then it shouldn’t lower your wife’s attraction to you. But since you can NEVER be absolutely certain of the motives or intentions of another human being; especially another male in the presence of your wife, just throw him a few “gentle, harmless remarks” of your own as a precautionary measure. But not always as a ‘comeback’, be the one who starts it up again once in a while just to show him that he’s chosen to play ‘your game’ and not you playing and reacting to his. Think Val Kilmer in Tombstone: “I’m your huckleberry”

  19. Malgayne says:

    That’s a good point about making sure you strike back in addition to just reacting.

    In general I think there are lots of occasions where a male will, consciously or unconsciously, jockey to be the alpha in a group. That doesn’t mean they’re after your girl, and it doesn’t mean that they don’t respect you—jockeying for social position is just an automatic instinct even among friends.

  20. Eric Ventura says:

    Oh yeah, one more thing. Have a HARD boundary drawn in your mind just in case he crosses it at any point. for example: “that’s not what your wife said last night” or something comparable. That way you can react quickly and decisively.

  21. Linanati says:

    My husband has had a couple of those conversations telling other men to back off. I’m not sure what was said though because I wasn’t present. For my part, I made sure the guy knew that I was loyal to my husband and wouldn’t respond positively to inappropriate comments or touches. Every time, the other guy stopped immediately after my husband had a talk with him.

    There were some situations I had to handle by myself, due to it being men my husband didn’t know that I worked with. If he had threatened to beat them up or something, I could have been in huge trouble at work. It is much, much harder for a woman to get another man to leave her alone than it is for the woman’s husband to put a stop to the inappropriate comments/touching/whatever.

    Typically, the other guy WILL back off if the husband addresses the issue. If it’s the wife attempting to put a stop to it, he will often think he can wear her down or slip in past her defenses to get what he wants.

  22. Eric Ventura says:

    Typically, the other guy WILL back off if the husband addresses the issue. If it’s the wife attempting to put a stop to it, he will often think he can wear her down or slip in past her defenses to get what he wants.

    quoted for truth

  23. I'm a man says:

    @Linanati +1 “For my part, I made sure the guy knew that I was loyal to my husband”
    +1 “It is much, much harder for a woman to get another man to leave her alone than it is for the woman’s husband to put a stop to the inappropriate comments/touching/whatever.”

    Good point, husbands and wives should act as a team. As long as she keeps it secret the other guy knows he has a chance.

  24. MarkyMark says:

    The advice on here is all well and good, but it fails to address one group of guys: those who are NOT quick on their feet with verbal repartee. What does a guy do then?

  25. RedPillAwakening says:

    If it is obvious to those in your social circles that you are huge into MMA, or lift weights obsessively, or collect guns and have a CCW, that can be a major deterrent in itself. If you don’t have the quickest wit around (and God knows I don’t) then you can pre-empt a lot bullshit just by being basically all-around manly in these ways. There is no substitute for an alpha demeanor, but these things compliment it well and will boost your alpha cred.

  26. pdwalker says:

    MarkyMark

    I find that looking the offender straight in the eyes and saying “You’re out of line, shut the fuck up” works wonders. Oh, there might be an awkward moment while everyone else tries to pretend it didn’t happen, but it works if the offender is not a complete asshole. If the “group” does not approve of the reprimand, the you’ve learned that this group is not one you want to spend time with in the future. You can’t lose.

  27. Tank says:

    “Or put another way, if you bang the wife of a U.S. Army Sniper, you need to be aware that courts typically don’t issue 2000 yard restraining orders.” This shit is just classic. Hands down, quote of the week.

  28. Linanati says:

    @I’m a man

    You’re right about the teamwork. I’ve never kept anything like that secret from my husband. Affairs develop in secrecy, and I didn’t want there to be even the tiniest opportunity for something like that to develop. Plus, what if he heard about it from someone else and thought there was actually something going on between me and the Wannabe Other Man? It’s better to be open with your spouse about this kind of stuff.

  29. Anacaona says:

    Good point, husbands and wives should act as a team.

    THIS. I had a lot of cad friends that supplemented their regular income of punani with married women and they were very clever on how and when to act, they usually targeted women that looked sexually unsatisfied (don’t ask me how did they knew I sometimes think they could smell them, of course knowing the husband was chasing new tail on the side was usually a good sign that he probably wasn’t taking care of business at home, nothing makes a man less interested on his woman that a new younger hottie…)
    They do a more subtle test, though given how violent things are in my patriarchal culture.
    After getting closer as “friends” they find out something she wants a small present usually a perfume. Well if the woman says NO! right there they kind of get that this woman was the iron will of faithfulness and/or the hubby is the jealous type, don’t get in there. If she takes it and the day after returned it, saying that “her husband” told her that she doesn’t need perfume from other men and that he bought her a bottle already or/and giving the money of the perfume to the guy. That meant that the guy’s eyes are “open” and that he will end up in a mess if he continues.
    Now if the woman takes the perfume and nothing happens that is pretty much greenlight, the husband is not paying attention and she is receptive to another man’s attentions and very likely won’t tell on you.
    So yeah is better to pay attention one never knows.

  30. Draggin says:

    “The advice on here is all well and good, but it fails to address one group of guys: those who are NOT quick on their feet with verbal repartee. What does a guy do then?”

    I’m only responding to shutting down the verbal testing from another man, not catching the guy actually hitting on your wife or actual cuckholding.

    As with everything in life, take a minute to figure out what you actually want and ask for it. How you ask for it has to be calibrated to chance of compliance/risk and your position in the group.

    Low escalation/risk response: “I don’t like the way you are talking/acting. Stop it now” in a stern/no nonsense tone. It makes it clear that you don’t like it and gives him no room to deny what is happening. Also, since it was a subtle test, moving it to a direct confrontation shuts them down immediately. Also, the group sees you as being reasonable. If he doesn’t stop you are seen as having the right to escalate right to “I’ve asked you to stop and that didn’t work. Now get off my property.” No loss of social status. This requires the least amount of quick thinking.

    Medium escalation/risk response using humour: “Keep it up and I’ll start in on your combover/flat ass/pregnancy (pick something that he has to be self-conscious about)”. Risk here is that it escalates if he wants to challenge more. Also, you could lose if he is wittier. This is appropriate if a good friend that it might just be a joke that goes too far or you do this type of verbal sparring anyway and so there is no loss of social value. It also shows people that you aren’t an easy target and will fight back.

    High escalation/risk response: “Get the fuck off my property” Appropriate in some situations, but could cause you to look like an insecure asshole, if applied too soon. Also, since you are using the nuclear option and making him feel a huge loss of social value, it could cause the guy to get defensive (especially if alcohol is applied) and aggressive. You better have a good idea of how he will respond and/or hold a grudge when you go straight to this. That is why it is usually safer to ask for compliance and ramp up to kicking him out. It’s a frog in boiling water situation.

    It is Alpha to use the minimum energy required to dominate a situation. That is why punching a guy in the head for teasing you about your man-tits makes YOU look like the loser. If you can get him to back down just by asking with a show of confidence, you gain social value.

  31. Posse says:

    “The advice on here is all well and good, but it fails to address one group of guys: those who are NOT quick on their feet with verbal repartee. What does a guy do then?”

    Body language and tone of voice.

    So much of communication is body language and tone. You can say something really benign, but couple with the right look and body language, and the true meaning of benign message is very clear to the other party.

    The right stare and body language can do 99% of the talking for you. Couple that with the right tone of voice, and say something like “That is enough of that shit.” If it continues, you can always say, “Are we going to have a problem? I don’t think either one of us is going to want that.”

    I had a guy chasing after my wife playing Beta orbiter,

    When I caught on to what was happening, I said to him, “I don’t like anyone trying to f@ck with me, or f@ck with my family, I tend to get very upset when someone does that.” Coupled with the right look and body language, the message was received.

    He knew what he was trying to do, and with my comment to him he then knew that I knew what he was trying to do. I didn’t threaten him, just made a statement of fact. The subtle message gets through to someone who knows they are doing wrong, because…..they know they are doing wrong, and are shit testing you to see how you react to it. I believe in training people to treat me the way I want to be treated.

    The beta orbiter has made himself scarce since. It didn’t thrill my wife, but I don’t care.

    Of course being muscular and having been a cop for several years, where I learned a lot about body language and tone, helped.

    Most people are big talkers and shy away from violence, and the implied threat of violence through body language, tone, and eye contact works wonders when used at appropriate times.

  32. Sean says:

    Quick wit is not required. If he steps over a line, you bore a hole into his face with your stare, and after three seconds, you say, “Excuse me?” in a flat tone. In that circumstance, three seconds is an eternity, and “excuse me?” said the right way tells the guy to step off.

    I can do this with any of my friends, and they know they’ve screwed up. I can do this with complete strangers, and they know I’m defending my territory. Repeat offenses are rare.

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