Do Not Take Me For Some Conjurer of Cheap Tricks

Some friendly disagreement about my post Why The “No Divorce” Belief Can Ruin Your Marriage from Vox and Simon. So let me just double up on my assertions.

Women are more attracted to men who can dump them and replace them at will, than men that cannot. Being able to dump her and move on to a new woman easily is heavy duty Alpha street cred and women are attracted to that. Totally removing divorce from the choice of options is a nerfing of the husbands Alpha. It’s a built in structural weakness to the regular Christian husbands ability to game his wife. It’s like you’re competing against guys running the 100m Dash while you run the 110m Hurdles.

Naturally of course a husband needs to bring Beta to the mix to reassure her that she’s not going to be dumped for no good reason, and to create overall relationship comfort. Plus to be quite blunt, I’m absolutely not in favor of frivolous divorce. Divorce is always, always, always the last resort… but sometimes you just gotta draw some total BS to a close and move on with your life.

The truth of the matter is that Christian women work just like every other woman. They get more attracted to a man who openly admits he would divorce them for slacking off for no reason, and lose attraction to a man who says that he would never divorce them for any reason. Every time you warble your unconditional love song, she eats another slice of cake. A confident man that can demand a woman be her best for him is hot. Couple that with him not demanding what she can’t reasonably do, and paying her affectionate attention, and you’ve got the sweet spot of married game.

The honest truth is that 99% of all Christian men come to me at their wits end, after everything else has failed for them and I am truly their last resort. I mean if you’re a Christian, coming to an Atheist for marriage advice must feel like asking Jamaicans for snow removal tips. So let me put it this way, having run MMSL for 2.5 years now, I’ve seen a cycle of interaction so often it’s now a cliche to me.

First the Christian husband finally reaches a breaking point with the combination of his belief and state of his marriage, and in an icy rage put divorce squarely back on the table. At that point I’m usually trying to slow their rush to divorce down… the first few days it’s usually a big victim puke session and I let them vent… and then they really start looking at Phase Three to Seven as being allowable and begin working toward it in earnest. (Which could take months or years depending on where they are at)

Then far more often than not… guess what happens…

“Magically” the wife turns herself around and starts paying him more respect, more attention, more deference and more sexy time. And that’s more sexy time after a very long time for a lot of these guys. The husband finally acting like he could potentially dump her and replace her, re-attracts her. Marriage saved, sex life restarted, kids growing up in an intact family, divorce lawyers eating Ramen noodles and missing car payments.

The truth of the matter is that MMSL has Christian women as my highest book buying demographic. I’m not kidding about that. They buy it for themselves, they buy it for their husbands, and their sons and brothers. They are turned on by the idea of being First Officers and being held to standards of behavior in exchange for compassionate leadership from their man. Let me repeat that… they are turned on by that.

Look I know if you’re a Christian reading this, it’s all utterly appalling to read and it just seems so totally wrong. Just believe me when I say I’ve seen it work over and over and over again. Where that fits or doesn’t fit into your theology or morals is up to you. As I keep saying, I don’t care what you believe, I’m not trying to make people Atheists, I’m just here to save marriages and help people. I only care about your religion as much as it gets in the way of me getting you back to a happy marriage, sex life, or whatever it is you want to happen.

I’m not trying to rob you. I’m trying to help you.

Related posts:

  1. Why The “No Divorce” Belief Can Ruin Your Marriage Okey-dokey, I gotta talk about this post on The Bible...
  2. Why The Church Wants Men To Be Betaized Care Bears ***Just to be 100% clear for any new readers. I...
  3. Date Night Review: Tips and Tricks  Finally catching up after the date night I surprised Jennifer...
  4. Game For Christians Athol:  Via email I’ve somewhat frequently been asked to write ”MMSL...

Comments

  1. Simon Grey says:

    Athol, I’m not disagreeing with any of your advice. My point was simply that the first flaw in the relationship was that the man married a woman who didn’t agree with his views on divorce. The man took divorce off the table but the woman did not. (Or, to put it another way, wouldn’t the relationship equilibrium be restored if the woman took divorce off the table? If a woman viewed herself as being tied to loser for forever, wouldn’t that cause her to do what she felt was necessary to help her man improve?) I see the conflict arising because the man believes that he cannot divorce his wife for any reason while the wife doesn’t appear to have any issue with dumping him because she, say, got bored. In essence, they’re unequally yoked. That’s the root problem.

    That then leads to the matter of dealing with the consequences. Personally, I think you do a fantastic job of giving people concrete, workable, real-world advice about how to make their marriages work. I’ve given your book to a couple of different people, and I think your approach is radically superior to most of the advice that the church and religious folk have to offer. But that’s a rant for another day and medium.

    What makes your advice so good is that your number one priority is figuring out what makes a marriage work in the real world, and then advising people to follow that path. Sometimes, though, making one’s marriage work can come into conflict with obeying Christ. From your perspective, it is entirely reasonable to advise people to do whatever it takes to make their marriages work, Christianity be damned (note: I state this as a fact, not a condemnation). Vox’s perspective appears to be that one should whatever it takes to make one’s Christianity work, marriage be damned (note: again, this is stated as a fact, and not as praise). My advice was geared more to unmarried men, and I simply advised them to look at the conflict this man faces and learn from it. Don’t enter into marriage with someone whose views on marriage and divorce differ from your own. From what you have said, this seems to be exactly what you and Jennifer have done (although both of you leave divorce on the table, at least for major, non-adulterous reasons). Christians should do the same, and should be extra cautious about this if they believe that the only cause for divorce is adultery.

    Personally, I don’t disagree with your advice on how to give this man the best shot at saving his marriage. I just disagree with the assumption that saving one’s marriage should be a priority over one’s faith. Of course, what else could we expect given that I’m a Christian and you don’t even believe in my Flying Spaghetti Monster? ;)

    Anyhow, you’re advice is sound given its goals. Likewise, Vox’s advice is sound, given it’s goals. I think the three of us agree on what the current problem is, and what Game would suggest be done in light of the circumstances. We only disagree on whether one’s marriage is more important than one’s faith.

    At any rate, thanks for the linkage; it’s much appreciated. I still read your blog every time a new post pops up in my feed reader. And I still think your marriage advice is much more sound than most theologian’s/preacher’s/pastor’s/etc. And I’m thankful you’re doing what you’re doing. And don’t worry, I’m not going to mistake you for a conjurer of cheap tricks. (Curse you, now I feel like watching the Director’s Cut of the LOTR trilogy in its uninterrupted glory.)

  2. Well said.

  3. Shanna says:

    I’m a Christian woman who bought your book.
    I wasn’t headed for divorce at this time, but had definitely thought about it in the past when sex was twice a year.
    In my denomination we believe that you can divorce someone and still be forgiven. Also that all sins are equal and every person is guilty of sin but Christ.

    I wonder if these people you are advising think they will “go to hell” if they divorce? That had honestly never occurred to me.
    Maybe they should all just convert to mine. :)

  4. pdwalker says:

    Your results should speak for themselves.

  5. Kort says:

    As a Christian woman . . .

    lol, just had to share a reaction I had to one of your posts. Not telling which one, though ;-)

    “Wow, I would hate to be friends with a woman like that. She’d do X, Y, and Z and . . . dammit! I am a woman like that! One more thing to add to the list to work on.”

    And I have worked on it. It’s not fixing the unfixable marriage but it is helping my business :-)

  6. Solomon says:

    There is no need to become an atheist to recognize husbands rights to leave a disrespectful wife. You just have to study some history and learn that Christianity borrowed its most its teachings about marriage from Romans and not from Jews. It has nothing to do with what Jesus said, all it has to do is about picking up the definition of marriage that existed in Roman empire at that time and than putting a sacramential seal on that. Just like blue pill people today cannot tell difference between marriage 2.0 and marriage 1.0.

    The Jewish God, so called YHWH, the one Jesus called Father, fully recognizes man’s rights to leave a bad wife, while of course detesting unreasonable divorces on a mere whim from either sex.

    The relation between a man and a woman is created to mirror the relationship between YHWH and Israel or in christian case – between Jesus and Church. As God reserves his rights to abandon the unfaithful to their own foolish worldly devices as the most effective punishment, so should a godly man who recognizes that he is created in the image of God to achieve the sanctity of God, abandon a woman unfaithful to him (by unfaithful I mean not only sexual unfaithfulness) to her own spinning hamster.

  7. Lola says:

    The truth is that the Bible DOES permit divorce. What the Bible DOESN’T permit is remarriage to another while your spouse or ex spouse is alive .

    Matthew 19:7-9 KJV

    “7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

    1 Corinthians 7: 10-11

    “10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.” (The Holy Bible KJV)

    Please feel free to access the full chapters referred to above on biblegateway.com or the entire Bible;-)

    It’s an unintended side effect, but if you can’t remarry with a living spouse, that would cause an increase in the murder rate…

  8. Solomon says:

    In reply to Lola.

    Not only in case of death but also in case of wife cheating, a man can divorce and remarry another woman. A woman however cannot remarry if her husband cheats because “cheating” is not a Biblical concept. Its a modern concept, arisen in times when people already had swallowed blue pill and thought than men and women are equal. There are Biblical concepts like fornication and adultery, historians debate about their meaning, but what they surely include is breaking the marriage. Since Biblical marriage 0.5 is not today’s marriage 2.0, wife belongs to husband and marriage is actually a contract, not between a couple but between men of that society that a particular woman and her womb is to be used by only one particular man who in turn provides for her, thus, this man does not brakes marriage if he sleeps with another woman as long as that another women is not married to another man.

    That is 100% Biblical, yet we still hear from pastors”today about total “forgiveness”. This is a right message when applied to women, but not to men. However the state, in all ages, wants to turn all men to women (manginas, betas et cetera) for easier governance. And from the dark times when Church was tied with state, this teaching continues.

  9. DaisyGirl says:

    Thank you, Athol. I’m sorry that I spewed venom at you in an email over another post. The truth is I have been working toward making my marriage better for years now and things are better. It’s just that we are coming into a new phase in life and I’m insecure all over again. That post triggered memories and feelings that I thought I had forgiven. For many years I was the Princess Leia chained at the feet Jabba the Hut. BUT in some ways I put myself there and instead of taking responsibility for that, I took pride in playing the martyr. Walking on eggshells around him, trying to please him all the time, did. not. work. but it was easier than learning how to be a little bit of a bitch. I’m here to learn. lol My husband doesn’t want a submissive wife so much as he wants a cooperative one. (That’s probably saying the same thing, I’m just personalizing it for me.)

  10. Anon says:

    Solomon’s comments show that men have hamsters too. Apparently he is not aware of, or is not interested in, what the New Testament has to say about marriage.

  11. DaveD says:

    I’m a Christian and I take it VERY seriously. You “preach” a more biblical view of marriage and the relationship between the sexes than 90%+ of churches out there. Captain/First Officer is the perfect way to explain the biblical concept of a wife submitting to her husband and his responsibility to be the priest of the home.

    As far as threatening divorce…as a last resort, sure. Even the bible says its better to live on the corner of the rooftop than with a bad woman. I’ll take alone over a hateful and fat woman.

  12. LongLostFriend says:

    I am not going to budge on the divorce thing. Pragmatics does not outweigh following Jesus for the Christian.

    In lieu of putting divorce on the table, I keep my sex rank high enough that a wife would know that if she leaves me, I’d have little trouble replacing her with someone at least as good as (if not better than) she is.

  13. LongLostFriend says:

    Alternately, a man can take the approach of the young man in Chapter XLIV of Count Lucanor. It is one of my favorite examples of Red Pill wisdom in marriage.

    Positively medieval.

  14. Scott says:

    I am an Orthodox Jew. While divorce is explicitly permitted in Judasim, it is seriously frowned upon and the beis din (Orthodox courts) goes to great lengths to dissuade it.

    That being said, resorting to divorce saved my marriage. It wasn’t even enough THREATEN divorce, as my wife simply ignored such threats, even as they got more explicit and more threatening. She quite literally ignored me until I actually filed for divorce at the beis din and scheduled a court date. At that point, and only that point, did she realize that staying married to me involved meeting my needs to some degree. And she very clearly wanted to stay married to me, especially as I became more and more attractive to her since instituting my own MAP. Since then, I have had to resort to threats a few times (with decreasing frequency), but she absolutely knows now that I have no qualms about pulling the trigger on our relationship if she backslides too much.

    I won’t involve myself in Christian religious issues. All I can say is, having it as an option can save even the most dysfunctional marriages. Not being able to resort to it is like having one hand tied behind your back as you work on your game.

    Further, we had gone to therapy for years, to little effect. Filing for divorce cost me less than one therapy session and easily saved us thousands of dollars.

  15. Scott says:

    Besides what I wrote above, the Jewish position on divorce is interesting for its obvious and unique insight. Women can certainly initiate proceedings at the beis din. But they cannot actually divorce their husbands. Having learned about game and hypergamy, this makes total sense, as women (yeah yeah NAWALT and all that) can and will initiate divorce for the most trivial of reasons, and often (from the husband’s perspective) for no reason at all. Yeah, this can be abused, and there are a relatively small number of cases where husbands won’t grant their wives divorces. However, this is nearly matched by the number of cases where women refuse to ACCEPT their husbands divorce.

  16. FlyingDutchman says:

    I haven’t had to actually file, but I have brought the option to the table in my frame of mind more than any direct threat. And my wife only believes it because I believe it. I absolutely know, and she knows, I could go marry somebody hotter and younger than her if I wanted to, but I don’t want to, I want my wife. But I also expect her to treat me with respect and reasonably take care of my needs as I take care of hers. My experience is that my wife doesn’t focus much at all on my needs unless I maintain this frame with her. And, most importantly, I need to point out that I would feel guilty taking this frame with her if not for the results. She likes it. She response very positively to it. I can see the devotion and attraction go right up when I’m solid in this frame. When I backslide and start to get sucked into the “I’ll love you no matter what, always and forever” frame, (the old me) her attraction drops noticeably.

    I’ll sometimes, just casually review this frame with her in a funny/cocky way, when she fitness-test me. “Baby, if you don’t like it, there’s the door. I’ll just have to find me a younger hotter model, and get her trained up. Oh, what a pain, would way rather have you, but I’ll just have to make due.” I don’t say things like this often, but when I do, she lights up. She has even told me she likes it when I have that kind of confidence. I have been sex-up in amazing ways by her after these exchanges too (not something she normally takes the lead on). So go figure…

    A blue-pill guy would never believe what I just explained. I know because I was that guy in the past.

  17. MWMM says:

    All truth is from God. What Athol is saying is the truth. Yes, I’m a devout Christian, but I’m also a realist and I’m too old to hide behind theory. I lived through this exact same condition. Once I realized my wife was ready to walk out the door I was faced with the fact that our marriage of 18 years and three kids was about to blow up. First I started with the typical Christian arguments, then I blamed myself, then I asked her for forgiveness, then I bought her stuff, blah, blah, blah. It didn’t get better. At this same time I stumbled onto game. It was like learning there was no Santa Claus. But as a successful business man, I decided that I wasn’t going to lose this one. I learned game and started using it and was shocked at how well it worked. Of course as a rookie it was hit and miss, but I was on my way. And yes, I did tell her if she wanted out to to “get the hell out of my house”. I inferred that I had already discussed plans with a lawyer and knew the tricks to maximize my position in a divorce. Four years later our marriage is better than ever and our three kids enjoy a happy family.

    At the same time a friend of mine (same age) was presented with a divorce from his wife. He, a devout Christian too, “stayed the course” of marriage is forever. He told me that it was the right thing to do. Now they are separated and the three kids live in two houses.

    Thanks. Perfectly on point.

  18. The Dude says:

    Hey, I’m a Christian…but if an atheist has good advice…who am I to put that down just because of what you believe.

  19. The Dude says:

    And Solomon…I suggest looking up what Paul had to say about marriage in the subsequent chapters of the NT. A man doesn’t have free range to go hooking up with other unmarried women while married. Jesus doesn’t give his gifts to the churches of Buddhists or Hindus.

  20. Passing Stranger says:

    >Look I know if you’re a Christian reading this, it’s all utterly appalling to read and it just seems so totally wrong.

    Nope. Admittedly I’m not from one of those sects where “the doctrine of the church” is given equal weight with scripture, but in any event, you’re not advocating divorce, you’re advocating a technique to avoid it if at all practical. Whatever works, works.

  21. FlyingDutchman says:

    @MWMM

    I had pretty much the exact same experience you described at 20 years into my marriage. The hardest part for me was the fact that my wife didn’t know what was wrong, she just wasn’t happy and wasn’t attracted to me. If she could have said “I need you to be more Alpha, here’s a copy of MMSL”, or anything like that, it would have been easy. But I had to struggle for a long time trying harder with all of the wrong but typical blue-pill efforts.

    I am Alpha in the rest of my life, I own my own business, am very successful and have a high objective SR. But with my wife she had become the alpha of the relationship. I didn’t even know what Alpha was or that I was lacking it in my marriage. I thought I was doing the right thing by trying to co-captain a supposedly equal partnership marriage. However, I was forced to take the red pill, like it or not. If I hadn’t taken it, my marriage would be over. Now, its better than ever before.

  22. Solomon says:

    To my critics

    Truth is I care about what New Testament says only in light of the Old Testament. I don’t care what Paul says, he was creating a new religion. I like what Jesus has said trough as he was 100% relaying on prophets before him unlike Paul who made some things up on his own. Everything that New testament has of value is found in the ancient Jewish scriptures.

    Those who call themselves Christians are willingly ignorant not only in terms of Game but also in terms of history and many other things. You just have to study Jewish texts more ancient than new testament to see that Jesus has said NOTHING new, just explaining forgotten truths. Paul made a religion from this twisting it as if Jesus had said something new. Which he didn’t.

    If you truly want to learn what God is like and what he expects of you, and if you really want to follow Jesus and be like him then please make the little effort and learn from the same books that Jesus did learn. That is what Jesus would do. Because he did. Jesus did not worship himself as God and you shouldn’t also worship himself as God. Jesus worshiped Father and called himself his son. You must read the books he did and you will gain the understanding he had.

  23. Solomon says:

    Like Athol I couldn’t stay Christian after learning the undeniable truth that we call Game. But unlike him I didn’t became atheist, I started searching for belief systems that explain God in ways compatible with Game, because I have mystic experiences and know for sure that there is a God in one way or another. I have came to conclusion that Jewish faith in times of Abraham, Moses, Solomon and David was compatible with Game (not PUA lifestyle of course but with married game) fully. But that is not quite what we call Judaism today. If you want to learn the truth you must study Kaballah (not Madonnas version) about what really lies underneath it all.

  24. Solomon says:

    @ Passing Stranger

    I don’t care what Paul thinks but I can tell you what God thinks – When a married man sleeps with a woman that is not his wife – it is a sin, but not a marriage breaking sin, but when a married woman sleeps with a man that is not her husband – that is a marriage breaking sin and reason for divorce and freedom for husband for remarriage.

  25. ZLX1 says:

    Lemme give you a tale of woe of this concept in action from the past of ZLX1. The abbreviated version.

    Me: family background where divorce was unheard of. Only one direct relative that I was aware of. He remarried when I was a kid. He’s still married to that woman 30 years later.

    The ex-wife (mine): family background where divorce and cheating is as common as changing socks.

    Now of course everyone can see (now) and point out to me how we were unequally yoked, or that I was a dumb ass for marrying her (yes I know, thanks) but a lot of this history was actively concealed from me and by the time I found out the extent of things I was yoked. The Lolz.

    Anyway you can surmise that I went into this with the attitude that marriage is once and forever, no matter what, and she went into it with the belief system that marriage is until I feel like it. As you can imagine that gave her extreme leverage against me. Since divorce was such a verboten and foreign concept to my experience she could use the threat as a bully pulpit or just operated under a completely different set of rules.

    Such as, since she went into the marriage fully expecting to divorce, for her it was only a question of when and not if. So the when was going to be whenever she felt like it or when she decided it was most advantageous to her. Basically I was a sure thing, so she took that as a license to ill.

    One day when I discovered that some serious ill’ing had been going on I got to where I literally said “I’ve had enough of your shit. Get the fuck out of my house. I’m divorcing your fucking ass!”. Just like that. Well, well someone suddenly got contrite and apologetic, least on the surface while they scrambled to come up with a new strategy to deal with me revoking the “I’ll live you no matter what” card.

    Eventually I did do just what I said and made her leave. I had a horrible 2.0 marriage but got myself a marriage .5 divorce in my favor. When I reach my limit I can be a very cruel. Yay me!!!

    The point of what I’m saying is that aside from the shit job of wife selection I made, a huge, huge structural problem was our differing attitudes towards the divorce option. This gave her a type of hand that was not able to be counterbalanced until such time as I had gotten mad enough to overcome my beliefs on the topic and arm myself with the same option. But by that point I wasn’t just armed with it, I was deploying it.

    Now my ex-wife was a real piece of work, maybe one day I’ll join the forum and tell you some things that will make your head spin, but no matter how good or awful your wife is, or how well or poorly you’ve selected I think that if you actually clearly tell her things like I’ll love you no matter what, or that divorce is never an option for you, that you are basically signing a permission slip for her to feel free to act as she wishes with a personal guarantee from you that there will be no heavy consequence for failure to act right.

    I mean what are you going to do? Ground her? Lolz. Have “the elders” take her to task? Yawn. Unless you’re Amish, Mennonite or Orthodox Jewish that ain’t much of a threat. You gonna move out and just give her some money each month to feed the kids? Lolz. Nice try. You just moved out of the marital home dumb ass. She when she files on YOU the judge is going to hand you a big jar of KY (if he’s nice) before he puts the long arm of the law up your keister.

    For your own good you need to not say things like I will love you no matter what, or that you don’t believe in divorce. Heh, just because you don’t believe in it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that she thinks the same way. You may think these things, and that is fine, but don’t be a fool and actually verbalize them.

    Now if asked I would respond to a woman “I think divorce is a last resort, but sometimes it’s necessary.” If she were to press and ask when I would think it necessary my answer would be “If it should be necessary, I’ll know it.”. Bing. Dread game.

    Do you think that gives more additional incentive for her to behave as opposed to if I was all “I don’t believe in divorce, I would never get one, no matter what. I will love you fo-evah, no matter what.”

    Not saying you have to walk around talking about divorce nor should you be making divorce threats unless the situation is that serious and warrants it, but I think it very much in your interests, your kids interests and even your wife’s interest for her to know up front that you can and will vote someone off the island or dishonorably discharge them from the crew for just cause.

    It would be nice if everyone kept their word, kept their vows, took care of each other and we all lived happily ever after. But that is just not the way the world works. It’s a shame, but reality and people do not always operate according to your best intentions or expectations much of the time. Better for you that you do not disarm yourself of options, even if you think you would never use them, when I can pretty much guarantee you that your sweet Christian wife is keeping all her options, even if she says otherwise.

    “Yeah, but I trust her…”.

    Sigh Oh you poor kid. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

  26. GC says:

    I am in your major book-buying demographic – Christian wife who bought the book for myself first (Kindle version, so no one could see it!), then a copy for my husband, then one for my oldest son (age 24). I understand how your post about keeping divorce on the table (really the back burner) makes Christians tense; it makes me a little tense. In reality, though, your approach will reduce the number of divorces, not to mention untold heartache. Helping people to understand the dynamics of male-female relationships in a way that most of us have never understood is priceless, and provides tremendous ammunition for avoiding problems down the road. And really, just the idea of developing and maintaining a frame as a confident/funny/slightly cocky/going my own way – hope you’ll come with me kind of man is worth the price of the book. (And it helped me realize that women can use frame in a positive way too.)

    Some of the discussions over the past few days have been rather depressing, but they demonstrate the need for the things you are preaching. I hope that you are encouraged about the difference you are making in people’s lives. Thanks.

    Gaye

    Well said.

  27. 440amf says:

    Christians are taught to go the extra mile, to bless those who despitefully use them, love their enemies, deny themselves, take up their cross daily and follow Him (Jesus), to love their neighbors as they love themselves, to forgive others as they have been forgiven by God (every time), to do unto others as they would have them do unto them, a soft answer turns away wrath, that faithfulness trumps outcome, and so on. Kinda blue pill stuff if you ask me. Then there are a few red pill caveats, to rule one’s own house well (not specified what that means), and that the man is the head of the woman (1Cor. 11:3). There’s more red pill in the instructions to women, in my opinion, than to men, mainly that they are to be submissive, and that is commonly debated, but you won’t hear about that in churches much if any.

    This stuff is hard to accept for Christians men. It’s no wonder that Christians turn to it as a last resort, it seemingly goes against everything they’ve been taught, which is basically to be an endlessly faithful milquetoast, and that bad circumstances are just their cross to bear. It’s like telling them that world really is flat after all, we never went to the moon, and a lone gunman shot JFK. Even the term “Game” is suspect, this is no game, it’s very serious business. To the uninitiated Christian, it seems more like manipulation, and would Christians want others to manipulate them? Game’s frame doesn’t work well to attract Christians, it’s too much associated with it’s roots, PUA, which to Christians, is poison, kryptonite. A lot of Christians need this stuff, and once their into it, they’ll be glad they are, if you can get them near it.

  28. ZLX1 says:

    @440amf

    That is all true. If you come from that background or a family where divorce is just this thing you heard other people do, it’s tough to wrap your mind around having it as an option. Even if the fact of having the option would seem to reduce the chance that you would need to use it.

    Again, I point out that it would be like in the 80s if Ronnie had unilaterally said “Screw it, scrap all the missiles, we’re disarming.” and then expected the Russians to be nice, sweet and reasonable and look out for our interests. No way. Of course marriage shouldn’t be adversarial like that, but I don’t know what else to say other than following a policy of “Mutually Assured Destruction” and “Peace Through Strength” would seem to go a lot further than counting on the tender mercies of the other party.

    We already know people do messed up shit. We know people lie, cheat and steal. Even our very own spouses. Why the hell anyone would volunteer to the other party in a contract, that if they violate the terms of it and cause you severe damages, that you aren’t going to do shit about it and just keep being a party to the contract, is beyond me. Even if that is your position, keep that little tidbit of info to YOURSELF.

    Oh and…

    If it helps Christian guys at all, stop thinking of Jesus as a meek bearded lady. Start thinking of him more as the guy who didn’t take shit from anyone, didn’t waver, didn’t tolerate bullshit, sin or wrong-doing and would do stuff like boldly go into the temple and call them out to their face under very real threat of death. Also do stuff like whip the crap out of the sellers in the temple and clean house. Jesus. A man’s man.

    Being a Christian or Jew doesn’t require you to be a milquetoast, a pansy, a candy ass, a pushover or a doormat. I can almost imagine God sometimes smacking his forehead and saying “Yes, yes forgive my son, but for goodness sake, don’t sit there and keep letting them run you over with that same truck, dodge boy, dodge! Duh.”

  29. Serenity says:

    @ZLX1 “Now my ex-wife was a real piece of work, maybe one day I’ll join the forum and tell you some things that will make your head spin…”

    Please do. Don’t you think it’s time you leave the Whineosphere, and come play with the big kids on the Forum?” And hey, get yourself a dang name already.

  30. Louise says:

    If you are a Christian, then surely you should try and please your spouse because that is what the Bible tells you to do? There are lots of books aimed at Christian wives telling them how to please their husbands. And the Bible says that wives should obey their husbands. And husbands should love their wives. It’s an odd idea that a Christian husband should be viewed as a doormat, when the Bible instructs him to be anything but.

    I do think that a husband should be able to put his foot down without threatening his wife that he’s going to leave her if she doesn’t do what he wants. He ought to be able to inspire respect, and the desire to please, without her thinking that he’s going to dump her. I really don’t u derstand the appeal of a man who says he’s going to go off with someone else if his wife isn’t doung what he wants. That is hardly being much of a Captain.

  31. ZLX1 says:

    @Louise

    The Bible does not instruct men to be doormats but pastors sure do. There is much emphasis in Church on the love your wife part but I can’t recall the last time I heard a preacher get up in front of the congregation and roundly call out wives and remind them they are to submit to their husbands and obey. Doesn’t play very well to the paying audience.

    I dont think you understand what it’s like being a guy at most churches. Men get accountability partners and men’s groups so we can reform our wicked ways. Women get spiritual encounter and study groups because they don’t sin naturally.

    When I was still married I went to a kind of “marriage rescue” program the Church ran for couples as a personal “one last try” effort before I pulled the trigger on divorce. It was abysmal. Just abysmal. The couple (who were elders) that ran the show made a couple things clear over the first few sessions:

    1. Women run the show.
    2. If mama ain’t happy, it’s dad’s fault.
    3. Husbands should submit to their wives, if you don’t then you are unloving and in rebellion to God.
    4. Wives with such a rebellious husband on their hands can’t be held accountable for their behavior.
    5. Men are pigs but we tolerate them.

    The woman who ran it with her husband ran the whole show. His job was to agree with everything she said, nod a lot and tell us how his wife sleeping with a bunch of other dudes was the Lord’s way of telling him he wasn’t catering to his wife’s haaappppy hamster. She seemed almost haughty about all this like “she showed him” and beat that beta into submission with the assistance of lotsa cocksa. This was the best exemplar couple a church with thousands of members could come up with? I guess so.

    If you have even a shred of red pill in you, the whole thing would have made you want to puke. It was literally an episode of “Hamsters Gone Wild”. Then the other wives in the program started with their crap in subsequent meetings. It turned into a bitch fest about how all their husbands sucked and the guys are sitting right there in the room being taken to task. Sickening. And this at a very large and allegedly very conservative Church I was going to at the time.

    The last place you want to be as a man is at Church around mothers day. It is a pagan orgy of female fertility god worship. On fathers day it’s okay. “We appreciate you going to work and even though we know all of you men are drunken, abusive, porno addicts we’ll let it slide and not mention it today.”

    I’ve tried other churches since. It’s not much different wherever you go if you are staying within Protestant or Evangelical circles. I might try Eastern Orthodox. I hear men are still welcome there and not treated like they are porn addicted retards with job skills.

    I don’t think anyone is advocating that men should be running around threatening divorce at the drop of a hat if they are not happy, that would be what women do. (snark, couldn’t resist). The option does have to remain an option as it would seem even “dedicated” or devout Christian wives are not eschewing it’s use. A man would not be much of a captain if he allowed a first officer to remain part of the crew if they were guilty of treason, harming the other crew members or trying to scuttle the ship. Sometimes you need to dismiss a shitty first officer.

    I do detect in the last line of your post a whiff of “man up” type talk. Is that your intent? If so, please elaborate.

  32. The Dude says:

    “If it helps Christian guys at all, stop thinking of Jesus as a meek bearded lady. Start thinking of him more as the guy who didn’t take shit from anyone, didn’t waver, didn’t tolerate bullshit, sin or wrong-doing and would do stuff like boldly go into the temple and call them out to their face under very real threat of death. Also do stuff like whip the crap out of the sellers in the temple and clean house. Jesus. A man’s man. ”

    I do…my favorite part about Jesus’s personality was his “take it or leave it” attitude.

    Also look at his interactions with women in the Bible…there wasn’t a time I saw a “nice guy” attiutde with Jesus.

  33. Anon the Mouse... says:

    Um… As a Christian girl talking to her Christian Mom about this site….
    Observations:
    1) from a creationist standpoint, God made the Body Agenda… then told us to look to the bible, prayer, and the world for understanding of His will. Clearly the science under this (dopamine oxytocin whatevs, my spelling sucks) has to be attributed to Him if you believe He is involved…
    2) there is an entire section saying a good wife does x y z and a good husband does a b c and it sounds very VERY much like what is here.

    As they say in Big Fat Greek Wedding… men are the head of the house, and women are the neck…

    My mom and I love you Athol! I am not ready to bring this to my husband yet… I am doing my MAP/girl game first… then, if I will see where I am… I want to build my confidence first… so I can handle the conversation when it needs to happen…

    Thank you for you and for this site!

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