Men and Women Can’t Be Friends

Being completely honest, I can’t ever remember having a female friend that I didn’t want to have sex with. Not one. Ladies if the guy is hanging with you, he wants to bend you over something and take up a couple minutes of your time. This is because you can bet that if there was some other woman he was more attracted to than you, he’d be hanging around her and not you. Guys simply aren’t interested in women they don’t want to have sex with. Short attention span and all that.

Women however, if they don’t feel the sexual impulse for the guy orbiting them, still value them as potential chumps and back-up plans. They’re a sort of insurance strategy. You never know when you’re going to need a tire changed or someone else to buy you a cup of coffee. Or maybe lift a heavy object or something.

Importantly…. women pretty much know when a guy likes them and is orbiting them. So if you’re orbiting someone, she knows and you revealing your feelings for her isn’t going to be a surprise. She’ll act surprised of course, but she isn’t. Then comes the carefully crafted speech about how you’re gonna make someone a great boyfriend/husband, but not her and she values your friendship so much she doesn’t want to change something that works so well for her.

So if you’re a single guy and you are with a girl you particularly like, you have to immediately make a move on her to start the relationship heading toward the boyfriend/husband track and not the friend / tire changer / wallet / emotional pit crew / chump track. I’m not saying you have to try and get to second base inside of twenty minutes of meeting her, just at least try and close for a number or a date, touch her arm, tease her or something. Anything other than respectful acquiescence and standing around smothered in your emotional bubble wrap.

If you get a positive reaction, cool. If you get no reaction, you’re probably stuck in a holding pattern and won’t be called in to land. Just don’t stick around and waste too much time with her, find someone else you find attractive and make a move on her.

Now if you’re a married guy, if your wife has a male friend she hangs out with, that’s the top of her back-up guy list. There’s probably another guy you aren’t even aware of, but that guy is gonna be her first port of call should things fall apart with you. He totally wants to do her. You know that because he’s a guy and if he wasn’t interested, he wouldn’t be hanging around her, he’d be hanging around someone else he wanted to bang. Ladies, pussy is always more interesting to a guy that isn’t getting enough, than whatever shared activity you think he’s so into, he wants to do it with you.

Likewise if they are ever alone together. I mean really alone alone. That means he’s passing her Isolation Anxiety defenses. He doesn’t make her feel creeped out. Which means she’s interested in him on a sexual level. Which is of course why wives go ballistic when their husband is ever alone alone with another woman, because they know she’s into him and what the tune really is.

Some videos to illustrate.

And if you want the harsher version… Chris Rock brings the pain. (Some language, cover your ears Sis.)


  1. So, if a serious girlfriend is spending one on one time with guy friends, that means time to break up, right? I mean, if she was really into you it wouldn’t happen, correct?

  2. That’s the absolute truth.

    In general.

  3. OMG Athol, you have done it again! Where do you come up with such great video?

    Truer words were never spoken! I know a lot of gay guys and even they have admitted that if their hag is gorgeous enough, they wouldn’t mind tappin’ it from tha back.

  4. pd-
    not sure why you qualify, “in general”. I have never cheated when I was in a relationship, and as one of those girls said, “all my friends are guys” but I know all of them (except the gay ones; I’m not gorgeous enough) have/had the thought of bending me over the nearest counter and THEN continuing our “friendship”. The thing is, do we ACT on that thought? I never have, but if I am honest with myself, I know they are orbiters and “glass dicks”. I think the consensus in the films was, “if the opportunity presents itself”.

  5. *popcorn*

  6. @feralfelis: then you should get rid of them. What is going on in their hearts and minds may be beyond your comprehension, but just know that the more they worship you now, the more burning hatred they will have for you when the truth of the red pill is revealed to them.

  7. FeralFelis,

    “In general” – as in “a generalization”. Something that is true in almost all cases, but is not always true. Like many things in life, there are no absolutes, but this is as close to one as I have ever known.

    Your example is a perfect one – beta orbiters who just haven’t figured out the way to get into your pants yet. Give them a beer sometime and ask them straight up, “If I offered you a chance to bed me, would you?” What do you honestly think their answer would be? Unless you are truly so ugly that they really do have no feelings of attraction to you beyond actual friendship, I think their answer will be unsurprising.

    But you know what? Even if you were a hideous troll, under the right circumstances, those guys could still find you attractive in the right light. Heck, if there is an actual good friendship there, you can count on it.

    It’s how we are wired – both men and women.

  8. in general.

  9. Men find women either “attractive” or “repulsive” and its based on “would I breed with this woman?”. There is no “neither attractive nor repulsive”. Ever.

  10. I disagree. I have a few girls that I have been friends with for many years and have never had the urge to bend them over. Probably due to the fact that my sex rank doubles theirs. And their lack of feminine traits.

    Does that make them orbiters to me?

  11. That would actually put them in the “Repulsive” category.

  12. Athol, I like to have female orbiters. They do favors for me and buy me stuff. But this is a common pattern:

    1. get to know a girl
    2. girl gets attracted
    3. i get prezzies, she runs errands, etc. It is good.
    4. the boner test says: could defo hit it once out of curiosity and all-purpose horniness (Athol’s edict holds!), but no chance i could sustain interest for even a round 2 (and frankly, I’d be embarrassed to show her to my friends)
    5. i reject numerous passes (her touching me, her isolating herself with me, etc.)
    6. girl gets frustrated (understandably)
    7. i lose my orbiter. Sad.

    Can someone help me with this? It’s basically that I can’t keep female friends. I’m no use to them if I’m not fucking them (it seems), and I’m definitely not going to reverse the roles just to keep them around. Any advice? Athol, as a married man with female friends, how do you keep them sweet on you without them getting upset that you’re not pulling the trigger?

  13. I agree with this 100%. Great posting Athol.

  14. Version3.0 says:

    I have a couple of long-term friends, married, who I have no real attraction for. Our friendships were born out of shared experiences (e.g., work, living overseas, college), and I just don’t think of them that way.

  15. RedPillAwakening says:

    This is the absolute truth, thank you Athol for your courage to be honest about these things. But saying them out loud is the kind of thing that makes women’s hamsters want to riot lol

    But I agree, women probably do know already know all of this on a limbic level and tolerate these beta orbiter chumps as a contingency plan, part of their hard-wired prehistoric survival strategy.

  16. Really Athol? Never?
    You have never had a colleague that you were not interested in sexually but enjoyed talking about life, work, whatever? You never had a lesbian friend who you knew was off the table? You never have had a girl friend with a close gay guy friend, the guy friend having no interest in her, but maybe you?

    I will certainly admit, I have had many a woman friend who I have not been attracted to physically, but loved hanging out with. I have had women friends who I have been attracted to, that is would do, but do not hang with them for that reason; simply because I would never make a pass at a wife and mother of a friend.

    Maybe you reserve this “only” statement for orbiters. I can never recall orbiting anyone, if I truly am interested in one thing, I’ll make a move soon. I’d not waste my time doing stuff with someone I abhor on the off chance she might want to lay me.

    Maybe there is a more nuanced truth to your statement or this is a bit hyperbole?

  17. I am unsure. In my teenage/early adult years, I thought I could be “just friends” with lots of different men, and could point to many of my “man friends” as examples. But then, one by one, they insisted that it needed to be more. Dating or nothing, sex or nothing, marriage, etc. So I changed my mind and decided it wasn’t really possible. But now that I’ve been married for 16 years, I’ve found that I do have male friendships that have sloooowly developed with my husband’s friends and and other men from church, through their wives. There are lots of bounderies and we don’t ever get close the way I do with my girlfriends, out of respect for all of the marriage relationships. But all of the shared experiences and trials and history have created friendships with these men. Lots of bounderies, but true friends!

  18. @ x1134x: You have summarized this brilliantly. The Hamster needs to rationalize. To do so is its purpose; rationalization is intrinsic and thus the hamster inhabits a landscape made up entirely of shades of gray (no pun or other association w/the books intended). This makes it difficult for women to understand the black-or-white thinking of almost all men. So, for the ladies, I’ll add my voice to the chorus. Athols is spot on here. That “friend” from class, work, the yoga studio, the gym, the dog park, church, you favorite bar, the club . . . et cetera, ad nauseum . . . is thinking about f_ck!ng you (and probably in questionable ways that would alienate his familiars and bring shame to his family). If he wasn’t, then you’d never see, hear from, or otherwise ever notice him. He’d be on the stalk, prowling for someone else. This is important because grasping this concept could save you much time and trouble arguing with your current/future significant other about so-and-so being just a friend. Your significant other is right, you’re wrong. So-and-so is not your friend. He is one of two guys: a beta male that hasn’t the balls to make a strong move, or someone else entirely. Someone who wants to study you, find an “in”, and bang you in exotic and painful ways that’ll make it difficult for you to face yourself in the mirror the following day! Thus spoke Tank.

  19. Well Jessica, I’d say they obviously don’t find you repulsive.

    It’s a good thing they are well behaved.

  20. Nothing new here. Biz Markie discovered and wrote a song about this back in the 80’s.

  21. How I wish I’d known this when I was younger, it is SOOOO true!
    @Athol, I’ve used the f word on my blog before, what chu talkin about, I’m no innocent…anymore.

  22. Ms. Confused says:

    Help me understand something, please. My best friend in college was male, and for three of those four years we were both single. He’s a big, tall, good-looking man that all the girls called “Thor,” and he had an active sex life with lots of pretty girls. (I was celibate until I met my husband.) Although we really connected on a friendship level, there was zero sexual chemistry between us — he never once indicated any interest in me, and I had no interest in dating him. Our last year in school, we both met people we liked and got married, and now all four of us are good friends. He obviously wasn’t some kind of beta orbiter, because if he’d wanted to put the moves on me, there’s no reason he wouldn’t have. So, what’s the deal with this friendship? I’m having a hard time fitting this experience in with the rule that says this is apparently impossible. The only thing I can think of (besides the possibility that this rule isn’t ironclad) is that I did not fit Thor’s physical preferences at all — he preferred short skinny women, and I’m tall and muscular.

  23. I think in single life you can have friends of both sexes but when you start to pair off as you get older all you can have is friends of your wife/husband or co-workers that sometimes you go to happy hour with. When I was having problems in my marriage and was in the depths of niceguydom, my wife start going to lunch with a husband of her best friend and they started something. I quickly killed it, but when your spouse starts spending alone time with someone from the opposite sex for fun, time to dive in and figure out what is going on!

  24. This is pretty much something I realized a long time ago – women fall into 2 categories – “just another person” and “potential sex toy”.

    I can be “friends” with the first group because I’m utterly uninterested in anything more from them. Most of these are either business acquaintances or partners of my male friends.

    The second group, however (lacking the boundary of being married to a friend, obviously) I can’t be around without trying to escalate, and when that doesn’t end well then there’s not even a possibility for communication any more.

  25. So, riddle me this: What’s the difference between being friend-zoned by your wife ( negative connotation ) and her needing more beta ( more positive connotation )?

  26. It’s weird. I totally subscribe to this belief 100% that men and women really can’t be friends. But what’s screwed up about the situation is that i have a really close friend of mine who is actually my ex girlfriend and she is smoking hot, but yet i have no desire to bend her over anymore. At times, she actually kind of repulses me….but we talk on the phone and text daily when neither of us is in a relationship. And I also tend to get along with women more than men.

  27. Chris Rock is so right…guys are put in the friend zone because they messed up somewhere. But once I figure this out…:).

  28. Okay, so what happens if you’re girlfriend/wife is spending one on one time with these “friends”, including ones which may be higher status, possibly beyond your MAP potential. Does that mean she’s not really into you, and the relationship should be ended? If not, how should one deal with her objecting that you’re being “obsessive” or “unreasonable”, etc.?

  29. This is about ex-boyfriends but still applies to any male friends.

  30. Sorry I guess embedded videos don’t work

  31. toomanypasswords says:

    I once had a female friend who I didn’t want to…you know. Her being about 150 lbs overweight was a factor in the lack of attraction. Cases like those are very much the exception, though. Generally, I have to agree with both Athol and Chris Rock here.

    For what it’s worth, there’s research backing up what Chris Rock said about women lying about how many men they’ve actually slept with.

  32. Depends what you mean by friends.
    True, every heterosexual man meeting a woman will think about whether he wants to fuck her, generally. (Though if the man is 21 and the woman is 78 and a friend of his grandmother the thought *might* not enter his head).
    I have female friends, most of whom I would fuck if the circumstances ever became appropriate (which is highly unlikely in most cases). I wouldn’t want to be married to any of them. I also have male friends, and if the circumstances ever became appropriate there are one of two I might have sex with. But we are grown-ups, we do know about these things.
    You know, you can be friends with people even when there is an acknowledged base level of sexual interest. Knowing that you would want to have sex with each other if circumstances were very different does not stop you being friends – particularly if you both know it. In fact it is integral to the friendship.
    After all, any friendship can change into some other kind of relationship, regardless of the sex or gender – people can become enemies, or drift apart, or become lovers.

    Some will say this is hamster talk. But I say, maybe your wife has female friends who want to have sex with her, and if you weren’t around she might be tempted – I hope you’re policing those relationships too.

  33. I wonder how much age has to do with this. The people interviewed in the first set of videos were mostly college age. In the last video, the comedian appears to be in his thirties or younger. Approaching middle age may change the ability of men and women to be friends, as both sexes are past the baby making stage and have moved on to other interests. Occasionally the interests or hobbies of men and women may overlap and they can enjoy spending time with one another while focusing on their shared goals or pursuits. This does seem much more unlikely to occur if the parties are young (i.e. >40ish). One aspect of aging to look forward to….

  34. Pegala,

    You bring up an interesting point in your last paragraph. Women’s sexuality is much more fluid than men’s sexuality. Women are more likely to be attracted to both sexes than are men. I recently read about a fascinating study in that area involving pupil dilation response to pictures of attractive people of both sexes. We hear a lot about marriages breaking up due to the wife and another man but what about the wife and another woman? My first thought is that societal disapproval probably keeps that in check somewhat but I don’t really know. I would be interested to know Athol’s take on that and any insider knowledge he has being privy to so many intimate details of various marriages.

  35. @Jim

    In the case you described I would be wondering why that guy lets his wife or girlfriend go out on dates with other men.

    Man + Woman + Alone + Activity = Date

    I don’t care if the plan is that they are going to meet up and drive to the homeless shelter together and hand out sammiches. That’s a date. If she insists you not be around its definitely a date. It’s gross disrespect and why would you want to be be with someone who insists on doing things that they know upset you and are disrespectful to you and your whatever-ship? Believe me, they know what they are doing.

    To me it signals she doesn’t much think that she needs to worry that you are someone worth acting right in order to keep around. Maybe she doesn’t perceive value, maybe shes just issues, maybe she’s an attention whore, maybe she’s just doing what a lot of chicks do and wants to claim naive obliviousness. Maybe you shouldn’t care about the reason though and just ask yourself if a man with a lot if self respect would put up with whatever the bothersome behavior is. If the answer is no, do something about it.

    Women always use the just a friend, you’re insecure, you’re jealous, you’re controlling talk to give themselves room to maneuver while they innocently explore their other options. The Lolz! I know, I know, I’m cynical and paranoid. Tell you what, gimme a dollar for every guy who said “I trust my wife, she would never…”. I’ll be richer than Bill Gates. Followed a couple weeks later by “I can’t believe she…!!!!”

    They also like to keep a guy around to use to make you jealous or to say things like “Well Bob is taking Nancy to France. Why can’t you be like Bob?”. Lolz.

    With women, as it concerns their attitudes towards the men in their life, it’s strictly business. LIke I said before to much gnashing of teeth, you’re only as useful as your last erection and paycheck or interesting experience you have delivered. Yeah, I’m back to being cynical today.

    Most women have the following men in their lives at all times: (or would like to)

    The one they are currently getting provisioning and support from.
    The one they are fucking. Which may not be the same guy as above.
    The one they’d like to be fucking if they could or if they thought they could get away with it without repercussion.
    The one that got away. The soulmate. You know, the one whom the man they married reminds them of.

    Don’t take it personal fellas. Try not to take the things that women say and do personal. Hard I know, but remember, it’s business. Be clear in your understanding of which arrangement you are in by watching what they do, not what they say.

    Oh the Lolz!!!!

    (Hugz, honk)

  36. Oh and for those that think women and men can be friends, you’re full of it. I’ll prove it. Let’s do some scenarios:

    Your spouse and their opposite sex friend are planning to rent a cabin for the weekend and go fishing. You can’t go, you have to stay home and watch the kids or work, or whatever. Is that okay? You’re okay with that right, or are you just being insecure? Lolz.

    Damn near everyday when you come home from work your spouse’s opposite sex friend is always hanging out at your house. It’s okay right? They just go shopping, take the kids to the park, whatever during the day when you are at work. You’re cool with it right? It’s just a friend.

    It’s Friday and your spouse is meeting their opposite sex friend for happy hour right after work. They don’t come home until 1am. It’s cool though right, because it’s just a friend. They decided to go grab some dinner, and then wound up playing pool. (hehe). Tried to call you honey but the reception was terrible. You cool?

    Your spouse and their opposite sex friend are always planning “activities” (dates) together. It really eats up your available couple time. You’re cool with that though. It’s just a friend.

    Your find out your spouse tells their opposite sex friend personal stuff about you. (And yeah, you bet your ass they do.) You cool with that? It’s just a friend right? Yeah, I know it would be annoying for your spouse to talk about your sex life with one of their same sex friends, but just because this friend is of the opposite sex, it shouldn’t affect your feelings on the matter right? Just a friend.

    You hang out with your spouse and their opposite sex friend. They have their own little inside jokes, etc. etc. Jeez, you’re starting to feel like a third wheel. Matter of fact, if they weren’t married to you, (lolz), you’d think the two of them were an item. You’re cool with that though because your spouse assures you that you have nothing to worry about and they are just a friend.

    Your spouse has some bad news. They tell you the bad news. When you offer some input, they say “Yeah that’s what [opposite sex friend] said too!” Oh, you mean they called opposite sex friend and gave them the inside scoop on the situation before they told you? Well you were at work ya know. But you’re cool with that, because you know, they are just a friend.

    Shall I go on?


  37. @ZLX1 to reiterate my previous point, you’ve seen Brokeback Mountain, no?

  38. @Pegala

    No, I don’t watch gay porn, but I’ve heard what the movie is about.

    Hamster talk though. The chance that your spouse’s and their same sex friend suddenly turn gay and they have an “experience” together is way down on the list of probabilities compared to your spouse and their opposite sex friend have something “just happen.”

    And you know it.

  39. @Polly – yes, it’s generally a bigger step for a man to have sex with another man than for a woman with another woman. Also, it is less threatening to a man that his wife/girlfriend is being hit on by a woman than a man (from an evolutionary psychology viewpoint there will be no genetic outcome). …and most men like the thought of girl-on-girl action.

  40. @ZLX1 – you’d be surprised. She’ll have sex with her female friend and her hamster will tell her that it doesn’t count as cheating on you at all.
    But anyway, shouldn’t we be diligent about the entire list of probabilities?

  41. toomanypasswords says:

    A secondary reason why there are so many male-female “friendships” is – speaking as a married man w/ kids in his 40s – it’s kind of hard for guys to find other guys to hang around with. My slice of suburbia is full of henpecked husbands who’ve given their wives complete control of the social calendar. There are also alot of people here who grew up here & spend what little free time they do have with family or old high school buddies.

  42. Milf_in_training says:

    As for the same sex bit … see my Intro in the Forum.

    I have several male friends, but they are very clearly “the husband of my friend”. I don’t do things with them without their wives present, unless their kids are around. I would never get into a situation where we were alone, and if I was, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable and very wary.

    If one of my male friends wants to bend me over, I’m quite flattered, but no. And they might have the thought, but I see no indication that they would ever act on it.

    We’re all middle aged, by the way, from early 40s to mid 50s.

  43. @ZLX1 SourPatchKid Don’t look now, but your bitterness is showing again. Time to let your sweet side out……………..

  44. “I have a couple of long-term friends, married, who I have no real attraction for. Our friendships were born out of shared experiences (e.g., work, living overseas, college), and I just don’t think of them that way.”

    This. I have had female friends I spent a lot of time with because of shared interests, not due to a desire to bone them. Usually I had oneitis for someone else at the time who was unavailable for one reason or another.

  45. All you people who claim to have an opposite sex “just friend” are lying to yourselves about your intentinos. They are simply in the “on-deck circle” in case something bad goes down with your current, better relationship. Some of you were the “on-deck” person, thinking that the person was being genuinely freindly but you were really the genitalia in a glass case, for the case of emergencies.

    People don’t “choose” to hang out with other people they find repulsive, thus the term REPULSIVE. They are repelled and do not want to hang out with you. If they hang out with you by CHOICE, they’ve just PROVEN they’re attracted to you.

  46. Men and women can absolutely be friends. I’ve done it. It happens when the sexual market value (SMV) of one is much, much higher than the other and the low-SMV person knows his/her place as a platonic friend only. Then, the partner of the high-SMV person will not mind his/her paramour spending time with the unattractive person because everybody knows that nothing will happen. It’s like being the gay friend. I’ve done this four times in my life and got to spend time with women way, way out of my league. We were genuine friends and I got to slyly drink in the eye-candy from the 50-yard line. I still know two of them. One was the only ’10’ I’ve ever seen with my own eyes. Here I am, a lifelong 2 in the SMV department, hanging with a model-quality looker while her boyfriend is out of town!

  47. @Serenity

    “I have several male friends, but they are very clearly “the husband of my friend”. I don’t do things with them without their wives present, unless their kids are around.”

    That’s a good point. The wife is your friend. The husband of your friend is just someone that you know who they are. Not a stranger, but not a friend. They are an acquaintance.

    To other guys:

    I have almost all guy friends. Is that odd these days? I don’t have any friends who are girls that I want to call at 4:00 AM on Saturday and say “Grab your shotgun man, the geese are coming in.” I know lots of women through business, peripheral social interactions, women I date, etc. but by and large, 95% of anyone that I would consider a friend in the sense of the word as I mean it, is a guy.

    Maybe it’s a more common among the under 40 crowd to have majority friends of the opposite sex?

    I’m not trying to crap on anyone, (much) but it makes me wince a little when a guy says, “Almost all my friends are girls!” I guess it makes me think to myself “Is this guy afraid to hang out with other guys or something?” Like he’s not certain how to act like a guy around other guys? Perhaps raised in a single mother household with no male figure around?

    If you hang out with girls the majority of the time because you want to put your penis in them, I understand that. Bravo!

    If you hang out with girls the majority of the time or have majority friends who are girls, (and you are a guy, and you say that you are not trying to bang them) what do you guys do together?

    Play football, hunt, fish, work on cars, chase skirt, get into bar fights, bail each other out of jail at 3AM, discuss geopolitics and foreign affairs?

    Or do you do girl things together like shop, bitch about other girls, talk about hot guys, get lattes and shit like that?

    To me a friend is not an acquaintance or just someone I know from business or whatever. If I’m using the word friend, it means someone I would be in a band with, drive cross country with and not kill each other, bleed for, go to jail for, fight beside, loan money to, answer the phone for at 3:00 AM and get in my car and go to the aid of with 2 minutes notice. I guess I use the word friend in a different context. Like brother from another mother context. Or bro from another ho if you’re feeling cynical like me today. I suppose other people use friend interchangeably with acquaintance, associate, “this chick I know”, “this guy at work”, etc.

  48. @Pegala

    Nah, I wouldn’t be surprised much by anything people do and rationalize. Yep, you should be alert to anything that makes your gut go “Hmm…” Trust the gut.

  49. I had another thought. Miracles happen.

    These friends who are girls, is it more that they are part of the crowd you run with, like the gang is all going to the movies so they are going along as well, or are they someone you would specifically call to hang out with one on one in a platonic way? Like you would call them on Saturday and see if they want to go do something with you?

    For example, if I go to a friend’s party, there are lots of women there that I know because they are part of the crowd of hooligans. I’m friendly with them. I know their names. We talk at the party, laugh, joke, whatever, but they are not on my radar to bang, or to hang out with otherwise. I don’t consider them friends. Just people I know.

    I guess I’m trying to suss out the extent of, or depth of the term “friend” when it comes to a member of the opposite sex versus someone you know socially, versus someone you orbit or who orbits you, etc.


  50. “If I go to a friend’s party, there are lots of women there that I know because they are part of the crowd of hooligans. I’m friendly with them. I know their names. We talk at the party, laugh, joke, whatever, but they are not on my radar to bang, or to hang out with otherwise. I don’t consider them friends. Just people I know.
    I guess I’m trying to suss out the extent of, or depth of the term “friend””

    I hang out after work with a crowd of women from work. Yes, I probably wouldn’t do that unless I found at least one of the crowd desirable. The key test for me of friend versus acquaintance is do I know exactly where this person lives? The after work crowd, I don’t know any of their home addreses and have never been there.

  51. And, assuming Athol is correct, which I believe, the key question for me is this:

    I am married. So if my wife has a male friend, like athol said, he is top on her backup plan list. He wants her. And she knows this. The question is, do I need to object to that? I mean, all women do this. Do I need to demand that she goes through life with no backup plan? Or do I just need to make sure that it never gets put into action?

    And I have a backup plan too, of course. My male backup plan may not consist of specific women, it just consists of keeping in shape, keeping that career going, keeping my social skills up, so I know that if word ever got out that we had separated, a small queue would form in front of my door.

    So is it appropriate to demand that your wife drop her backup plans, or do you just MONITOR the situation carefully?

  52. @ZLX1
    Your equation: Man + Woman + Alone + Activity = Date. I agree, but I would extend the date equation to allow for this variable. Man + Woman – Significant Other + Activity ~ Date. This allows for the reality that many men and women will often go out for drinks (or some other such activity) with small groups from work or school. This scenario hasn’t quite escalated to what you’ve described above, but for the “orbiter” it may take on the feel of a date. Any man or woman out in a group setting, wherein the SO of their “object of affection (a.k.a targert)” is absent will take that opportunity to get closer, to ingratiate themselves. I’ve personally seen this happen to a friend. My wife and I out with a group, one chick’s husband stuck at work and can’t make until later on in the evening, and another guy lingering around her all evening, flirting, and cracking jokes at the husband expense about why he can’t be there, where is he?, etc.

  53. Athol, I agree 100%. Every female friend I have ever had where we spent a lot of alone time together either eventually ended up with one or the other person developing feelings at some point or random hooking up that we rationalized in some way. (It’s OK because we’re friends, we were drunk and would never do that sober, etc.) Something else they all said was “if we were both single at the same time we would definitely be dating each other” or better yet “sometimes when I’m with my boyfriend I wonder what it’d be like to kiss you. It’d never happen though because we’re just friends. Right?” I also don’t think you’re saying men and women can’t be friends at all just that if you’re part of a couple the majority of time you spend in mixed company should be along with your partner. Alone time = intimacy, no matter what you’re doing.

    Speaking of orbiting and female friends…there is one type of girl that I encountered and should be avoided at all costs. It’s the girl who is dating someone, thinks of you as their backup, and reinforces your orbiting by occasionally aggressively pursuing you and initiating makeout sessions when not simply intoxicated (so no rationalizing) all while saying how loyal they are to their boyfriends and need to be with a guy they can trust. That’s a girl who has cheated many times and if you do happen to get her to be your girlfriend the one thing you can count on is her doing the same thing to you. I was friends with a girl like that in college and once I realized what was happening (which took a while, she was hot and I’m a guy) I had no choice but to stop being friends with her because why would anyone want a girlfriend they can’t trust from the beginning? She’s now on husband 3.

  54. @Tank

    Yep. I’ve seen the scenario you described first hand on a number of occasions.

    To me, crapping on another guy who is not present in order to make moves on his girl is pretty weak sauce. However, the thing is, it often works, if the chick in question has any level of dissatisfaction with her current man or is interested in the guy doing it. That’s why people do it, it works. At the least it plants thoughts and greases the rails a bit. Plus if she joins in the jokes at her man’s expense it signals to the interloper a green light. So it’s a way for him to test the waters and try to gauge her interest in him versus the husband. Then there is also the element that it creates some faux intimacy because wink, wink we now have a little secret or inside joke together.

    It would be interesting to know how the woman in your observation reacted. Did she tell the guy to shut it, did she do nothing much and soak up the attention, did she actively participate and laugh along with the denigration of her man, or did she try to keep away from the creep?

    I have personally seen women actively participate in tearing down their husbands while yucking it up with a guy on more than one occasion. Never seen a woman explicitly tell the tell the guy to buzz off and stop talking trash

    I’m sure that happens too but probably not often for a variety of reasons, not least of which is most women don’t exchange harsh words with guys in bars or social situations which is understandable. Not saying its an “evil woman thing” except the ones that actively participate in the tearing down of their man. Those chicks are looking for strange and just as d-bag as the guy.

    I have interceded on a friend’s behalf in this type of situation. Sometimes it is obvious the woman is not liking this behavior so I step in. Sometimes just watching her and the guy talk shit about my friend and cackle just pisses me off. Either way, inserting a male (Lolz) into the little interaction and a gruff “What the F did you just say about Bill?”. Will end it. Sometimes just a disapproving sneer at one or both will snap them out of their little interaction. It like junior high, only the stakes are higher. The Lolz!

  55. To briefly answer ZLX1’s question about what I do with the couple of female friends I have, it generally revolves around eating out or the occasional outdoor activity like a simple walk in the park. Concerts when the boyfriend is out of town have happened a couple of times. Years ago, one of these women actually liked the old band Rush (!), so that naturally precluded any other women from going with her, so I did. That was interesting – she was *easily* the most attractive of the smattering of forlorn-looking females there.

    You asked:

    “Or do you do girl things together like shop, bitch about other girls, talk about hot guys, get lattes and shit like that?”

    Mmm, I’d say that the only thing off that list I’ve done is get a coffee. All the others are pretty much all-female pursuits unless (a) the interloping male is a homo or (b) the interloping male is romantically involved with one of the females.

  56. Honestly, I’ve had a number of women who were good friends that I had no desire to bang. However, I have no way of knowing if most of them might have wanted to hook up with me. I can count on one hand (and I’m in my 40s) the number of women I’ve been friends with who I am certain had no sexual interest in me as well. Most of them were intellectuals who fell solidly into the “one of the guys” camp. Thankfully for them, they were also logical enough to accept a lot of the red pill logic, and are all married. One of the husbands has no idea I was effectively his wing man more than once during a few of his wife’s turbo-hamster moments.

    But if you’re married, and you’re trying to be friends with a woman, odds are that you are setting yourself up for big problems down the road.

  57. Oh and by the way, recently a male gay friend of mine got dumped by his boyfriend, and I spent the evening with him, one on one, getting him drunk and commiserating. Should my wife be objecting?

  58. @ABC123

    Dunno. Have you seen Brokeback Mountain? Apparently it turns straight dudes gay. If you’ve seen that, yeah your wife should keep an eye on you. Lolz.


    Watch it now. Rush isn’t “the old band”. Hehe.

  59. I have a very good female friend. She was my wife’s roommate in college, and I’m good friends with her husband. We’re in the same social circles, have a lot of common interests and a good friendly rapport, share a couple of inside jokes, enjoy spending time together. We’re never alone together, although we have occasionally taken part in group activities that didn’t include either of our partners but did include several third parties (“witnesses,” ha ha). I’ve never tried to get her alone or put any moves on her, nor has she tried with me.

    Yup. Really good friends. And in the unlikely and tragic event that the four of us were in a car crash and my friend survived and both her husband and my wife died, she’d get about six months* to grieve before I tried to get into her pants.

    Sorry, ladies. It’s just the way the world works.

    * In the interests of total honesty: three months. She’s a cutie, I’d want to lock that down before some other schmuck decided to have a go.


    “I am married. So if my wife has a male friend, like athol said, he is top on her backup plan list. He wants her. And she knows this. The question is, do I need to object to that? I mean, all women do this. Do I need to demand that she goes through life with no backup plan? Or do I just need to make sure that it never gets put into action?”

    This is just my opinion, but I’d only be worried if they spend time alone together, which would signal that he has moved from orbiting to trying to put some serious moves on her. And I’d tend to assume that any significant amount of time they spend together that doesn’t include you includes time alone together, whether they cop to that fact or not.

  60. I’ve continued to be friends with several women after I gave up on ever getting them in bed (well married to me, one I had tapped till she dumped me.

  61. @zlx-
    Aha! I think I found the difference! I do “guy things” with my “guy friends”.

    “Play football, hunt, fish, work on cars, chase skirt, get into bar fights, bail each other out of jail at 3AM, discuss geopolitics and foreign affairs? ”

    Well, not chase skirt (although they do talk about their dates with me), and I am more apt to watch football and baseball than play it these days.

    “To me a friend is not an acquaintance or just someone I know from business or whatever. If I’m using the word friend, it means someone I would be in a band with, drive cross country with and not kill each other, bleed for, go to jail for, fight beside, loan money to, answer the phone for at 3:00 AM and get in my car and go to the aid of with 2 minutes notice. I guess I use the word friend in a different context.”

    I agree (except it’s getting in the car at 3am to go deer hunting, not goose hunting). I use the word “friend” differently than most. The term I use for folks many people call “friends” is “acquaintance”. If you are a Friend of mine, I am there for you. No. Matter. What. No matter who (you’re dating or which wife or husband you’re on). Trains, planes, or automobiles; it doesn’t matter how I need to get there, I will be there.

    It’s cool to know you are that kind of friend.

  62. @Dale:

    Sorry to say it, but that’s kind of the definition of “beta orbiter.” I can’t watch the Chris Rock clip up there because I’m at work, but if it’s the same bit I’m thinking of, he spells it out pretty succinctly. Trying to fuck her, took a wrong turn, wound up in the friend box. Help! Help! I’m in the friend box! And let’s be honest for a moment, did you ACTUALLY give up on fucking them, or did you stop openly trying but secretly hope that whoever they were currently fucking would fall through and they’d pull out that “break glass in case of emergency” hammer, let you out, and start fucking you?

    None of that should be taken as a criticism, mind you, ’cause I’ve been there. Many times. And even at the time, even if I wouldn’t admit it to myself, I knew exactly what I was doing.

  63. I have a bunch of female friends who I have zero desire to be in bed with, mostly with a herd of 4-5s that I do outdoors stuff with. I am careful and I police my friendships with them so they don’t orbit me. It’s all about setting appropriate boundaries so that they don’t hurt themselves. There are some women in the herd that have unrequited crushes on me and I simply don’t interact with them. They’re not Facebook friends even though by reasonable standards they should be, and I don’t interact with them one-on-one.

    If they were more up to my status, it would be more of a problem. Women that are relationship material but not available I keep at arms-length and wait and watch to see if they become single. Women that are hot but not relationship material are generally not friend material either.

  64. Fully agree. Really, as a married man, the only reason I have female friends is due to the natural buffer created by being married. In all reality, the only female friends I have, I’ve thought about or wanted to have sex with and the only reason we’re able to keep consistent contact is because A) She too is married or in a relationship or B) She’s friends with my wife and therefore friends with me through association.

    The female friends I had before getting married have generally fallen by the wayside if they’re single. It’s tough to justify putting a lot of time into hanging out or talking with a woman at length when that natural buffer isn’t in place. The other female friends I have fall in the work associate/get drinks and hang out outside of work category. But in these situations, my wife is cool with all of them and is with me 90% of the time we hang out. And all of those hangout situations involved groups of 5 people or more.

    To top it off, and I’ve said this in one of my standup sets before, I don’t keep ugly female friends. If you’re friends with me, I find you attractive. I don’t consciously weed friends out by appearance, but that gives a glimpse into my subconscious motivation when cultivating or keeping these friendships.

  65. THANK YOU Athol, you spoke the truth 100%

  66. Anon for now says:

    Great stuff – newish lurker, first-time poster here…

    At the risk of sounding flippant, I have a large number of female friends I don’t want to have sex with. They fall into a single, easily-described classification: to whit, “women I have already had sex with”.

    When I was in my 20’s, most of my “friends” were female, and had I been red-pill honest with myself I’d have admitted that I wanted to have sex with most or all of them. Eventually, I pretty much did. If I was friends with a woman I *didn’t* want to have sex with, there was another agenda that I may or may not have been aware of, but mostly I’d have to call such women “acquaintances”.

    Nowadays, I pretty much have an equal number of male and female friends, but I have slept with (in or out of a “relationship”) every single one of the women. With that out of the way, provided there’s no inclination to go back, and once we’re past all the drama and lingering emotional baggage a few years down the line, I can actually be really good friends with a woman with absolutely no desire to bend her over, and without being of a greatly different “rank”.

    Although, it must be said, I was once told by one of said female friends that she believed ALL of my female friends were waiting for me to “come to my senses” and take them back. Does that make them “beta-orbiters”? I don’t really get all the terminology yet. Maybe it means I’m a chick :/

  67. Plenty of women will get alone with an orbiter. He’s gotta be the long term, hardcore beta orbiter who she has rejected at least once though. I mean cmon, who hasn’t heard of the “cuddle bitch” guy friend? You have to be alone to cuddle, but sex is not happening. She won’t get alone with an orbiter right away but once he is a solid “best guy friend” she won’t have qualms since he is “like a brother” to her.


  1. […] I echo Athol’s statement here: I can’t ever remember having a female friend that I didn’t want to have sex with […]

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