The Most Difficult Job In The World

Here’s the headline… Is ‘Opting Out’ The New American Dream For Working Women?

The short version: Women have started to figure out that it’s more fun and easier being at home than going to work. I mean it’s better for the kids yada yada yada, whatever… There’s started to be an actual shift out of the workforce, back to the home.

Here’s the most important part of the of the article. In fact we know it’s the most important part of the article because it’s the only thing they bolded in case men read it and didn’t know what was expected of them.

But it’s true: according to our survey, 84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to.

What’s more, more than one in three resent their partner for not earning enough to make that dream a reality.

So let’s speak plainly. Huge numbers of women want to go back home and raise the kids and one in three Fitness Test their husbands into a sexless marriage because he can’t provide them with their dream in a down economy.

Look, I’m really torn by this. I think having someone at home is great if you can afford it, but if you turn one spouse into the financial dependant on the other, there’s significant risk in a no-fault divorce society of an unmitigated disaster in the future. After a divorce, no matter how you slice up one income between two households, there’s going to be a ton of pain to spread around. But at the same time, it’s a bit of a return to more traditional values and thinking. Family matters, relationships matter, kids do better with an adult around rather than a key under the mat and junk-food. Hell I work from home now and I can see how everyone looks a little happier.

The great risk is that the husband that encourages/caves/allows his wife to stay home with the kids for a decade or more, really is somewhat de facto adopting her financially. She’s become his dependant. If she then “takes early retirement” and turns into a worthless house keeper, a crappy cook, a neglectful mother, mires herself in soap operas, trolls Facebook and even cheats on him… he’s got no easy options for fixing the situation. The minimum requirement for effort as a stay at home parent, is the threshold where the state decides it needs to remove the children from the house. So unless the state moves in, all the husband can do is choose between putting up with it, or divorcing and having his wallet removed through his rectum.

The nightmare / dream is this…

So anyway…

…here’s the deal. There’s not enough to do at home once the kids are in school to keep an adult properly occupied. There’s just not. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t want you to know how great it is being at home. So they tell you it’s the most difficult job in the world. Plus if they have an IQ over 100 they just go stir-crazy from not seeing any other adults during the day other than the mailman.

As I’ve said many times, what a stay at home person needs to be, is a SAHM or SAHD “plus something”. What that plus something is, I don’t care, you just need some sort of productive activity that your spouse or any other person can look at and say, “Yep that’s actually something of value you’re doing.”  Have a part-time job, take care of someone’s elderly parent that needs some kind of assistance, special needs kids majorly up the effort needed too, run the PTA, teach music on the weekend… seriously anything other than soap operas and Facebook. Get outside and walk around if nothing else, especially if you look like a bag of soccer balls.

The truth is many SAHMs are already SAHMs+Something, but some aren’t. You have to make very very sure of things before agreeing that a working wife should become a SAHM. It’s a very significant decision, right up there with getting married in the first place.

Also for women who want the SAHM route… you’re making a serious choice too. It’s not Marriage 1.0 anymore with copious alimony, it’s Marriage 2.0 with a lot of variance in alimony and child support. Even if you “win” the divorce and get cash and prizes, you’re still likely to have a very hard time of things financially if you can’t immediately start working. Doesn’t matter how you split one income over two households, it’s going to be worse than before. You may find yourself unable to extract yourself from a truly terrible marriage because you can’t afford it. Also assume that if you are divorced and you can’t find proper employment promptly, you’re going to have to consider finding a new male partner quickly, with his income being his most important feature. Which is to say, he might bring home the bacon, but not be someone you’re terribly into getting naked with. Blowjobs on the second date and all that. Welcome to Marriage 2.ho.

Oh and $1500 of Mary Kay cosmetics in the hall closet and you selling $40 of foundation to your mother doesn’t count as “plus something”. That’s called you wasting $1460.




  1. Athol,

    I agree 100%. Small penis turned me off instantly. Large penis scared me. Just right penis I married, although at the time I saw it as true love at 22. And twenty years later I still LOVE just right penis at 5 to 10 times per week.


  2. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    I don’t have much to say about this topic but that comedy routine is brilliant!

  3. Bag of soccer balls? LOL brilliant.

    I’ll be candid here, as a dude, who is expected to get up and go to work every day of his life until he’s too old to not pee on himself, I get very aggravated hearing the “it’s the hardest job in the world” rhetoric. Parkinson’s Law comes into effect – work expands to fill the time allotted, which drives up the expectations of neat and tidy and indirectly raises the beta-trait standards for the man. Not to mention that compulsively cleaning a house and rearranging the dish towels is just completely foreign to my concept of useful, productive work.

    Unhaaaappy SAHMs also strike me as the kind of people who would complain about the dip at an orgy.

  4. Plus if they have an IQ over 100 they just go stir-crazy from not seeing any other adults during the day other than the mailman.

    Oh, good god, you just reminded me of my brother’s wife. She became a SAHM after their first kid was born. Now, just for the record, nobody was going to confuse her with a Mensa candidate before they had kids, but she was at least a functional adult who could carry on a conversation. After five years at home with a pair of toddlers where the vast majority of her adult interaction was with the mothers of other toddlers… she became the mental equivalent of a five year old herself. Her ability to use logic atrophied.

    And this isn’t just me saying it. On the drive home from dinner at their house one night my own wife said “Courtney is really an airhead.” I shrugged my shoulders. “She wasn’t always like that.”

    My wife is a SAHM, but she also works a part-time consulting job and volunteers on a couple of local civic boards. The local civic boards probably aren’t enough, because they tend to gather SAHMs looking for social interaction with other adults, but if they all bring their Toddler Game with them, it doesn’t really do it. Work, with deadlines and commitments and clients or bosses to keep happy, is probably essential.

  5. 2manypasswords says:

    What Jack Amok said – civic boards & the PTA aren’t enough. Here, the PTA is an extension of the Mom’s Club where they interact pretty much with other moms like themselves & where they can focus even more attention on the kiddos (as if their kids need more attention than they already get…).

  6. whatmeworry says:

    So you’ve finally figured out the deeply hidden secret that work sucks? Welcome to the jungle, baby!

    Try to do two jobs at once and you’ll inevitably end up being shitty at both. Big surprise.
    My biggest complaint is that they come in, depress the wages, pollute the workplace with PC crap and other accommodations, and then bail.

    As far as the shit-testing for not being able to provide it goes, I’ll say this: Replace the crap filled McMansion with the 1500 sqft place your grandmother lived in, skip the 2 big SUVs, the weeks at Disney and skiing, and you’ll afford it just fine.

    And Bill Burr rocks. Piss your pants funny.

  7. What about home schooling???? Doesn’t that provide all those things a wife needs to stay occupied? While avoiding a lot of unpleasant realities in the public school system?

    If you chose a woman smart enough to bear your children, surely she is smarter than the average feminist, statist, man hating public school teacher. (yes this includes male teachers)

    If they are getting better education than they would in regular school, sure.

  8. The “hardest job in the world” rhetoric really bothers me.

    A good SAHM (or SAHD), in the right environment, for the right amount of time, can be a very good thing. But I see a lot of SAHMs who seem to want the respect of a job, with none of the judgement or accountability. If you want to claim that your job is so haaaaard, and you’d be earning high 6 figures with all your mad skillz if only your work was paid (no, really, I’ve actually heard women claim this), then you have to accept the consequences. We get to hold you to the standards of a “domestic CEO”.

    Are your children throwing tantrums in the public library while you ignore them? Do they run wild in general? Is the house a mess? Do you expect your husband to come home from work and do housework/childcare because “he lives here too/they’re his kids”? (Funnily enough, you live off his money, but you’re not in his office “helping out”.) Do you look terrible? Are your children eating junk food? Do they have no table manners? Do you want a nanny/au pair, even though you’re a SAHM? Congratulations, you’re not doing your “job”.

    Or you can claim that it’s no one’s business, and how DARE anyone judge you. In which case, STFU about it being a job, let alone the hardest one in the world. (Every time someone says that, I can hear every surgeon/firefighter/race care driver etc., shouting, “oh, come ON.”)

    Now, I have no doubt that the SAHMs on MMSL are well to the right of the bell curve in fulfilling their roles, but it does my head in the way so many others want it both ways.

  9. @Liz I *want* the judgment and accountability, as a SAHM… I think that’s one thing I’ve had to work through. There is no real attainable “goal” as a SAHM that isn’t destroyed by little kids or by making dinner in the next 2 hours. Everything is fluid, there is no monthly bonus for doing an OUTSTANDING JOB, neither is there a write up for failing to perform your duties. Those things are great motivators.

    Not having a rock-solid reward/punishment system is the ONLY way I’d say being a SAHM is harder than what my husband does. He comes home with stories of his great successes and conquests (swoon), and I get a little jealous. But I know he works his ass off. And knowing that my husband is red pill and won’t take me being a lazy ass is also a great motivator, though, and he generally tries to compliment my parenting and homemaking skills in a semi-regular basis.

    Reading the horror stories of unhaaaaappy SAHM’s has really made me want to do more around here.

  10. Being a SAHM or (D) is a job like any other. Some people are lazy and crap at it and some of us work harder at it than many people who are paid to work. Arguing over the merits or otherwise of choosing it as a way of life is about as pointless as arguing whether crap nurses, postmen or rocket scientists should be allowed to carry on in their posts. A good SAHparent can make the difference between a harmonious household, benefitting all who live in it and a frantic collection of people all looking after careers or studies with no one person responsible for the well being of the whole.

    Shit, I’m one of the best SAHMs I know. Why do I have to justify what I do anymore than my husband?

  11. A good SAHparent can make the difference between a harmonious household, benefitting all who live in it and a frantic collection of people all looking after careers or studies with no one person responsible for the well being of the whole.

    Yeah, and a good heart surgeon can make the difference between thousands of people living or dying, and it took him ten years to learn the skills to do that.

  12. Being at home full time with little kids is difficult – not the most difficult job in the world, but hard. In large part for the reasons RedPillWifey mentioned – everything is fluid, whatever you do is almost immediately undone, you have little to show for your work each day (except maybe that the kids are reasonably happy and the house has not been destroyed). And a lot depends on the kids – 2 little girls are generally much easier than 2 little boys. I agree that keeping some kind of work going on the side is great for everyone. I was lucky to be able to do freelance work when my kids were little, then start working half-time when the youngest went to kindergarten. Some women are super-homemakers (I am not) and save the family a lot of money by gardening, making things from scratch, shopping carefully for the best deals, etc. That’s a valid contribution too. All in all, though, despite the risks, I think that having a parent at home when the kids are young benefits the entire family, if it’s done right and everyone is pulling his/her weight.

  13. John Q Galt says:

    @Dido….you have to justify it because so many of your sisters have abused it and no one wanta to call them out. It’s a backlash.

  14. Anyone wants to write a comment saying that those who don’t pull their weight in their role, spend their days on Facebook or generally underperform then I’m right there agreeing that they cause a problem for their partners and family. There are people doing that in every industry or service out there – where’s the evidence that it’s any more prevalent amongst SAHPARENT s than any other sector of the working population?

  15. I let wife #1 stay at home after she whined for 2 years. She didn’t want to get pregnant while working and later wanted to “home school” the kids. Thought giving in would lead to more sex since she complained she was to tired after working
    – less sex
    -she laid on the couch and the kids didn’t get educated – to this day they suffer the consequences of poor educational start
    – divorce and Judge made me pay alimony for 6 years – she got an excuse not to work even then despite having a Mechanical Engineering degree from a top University

  16. I worked until we had kids. I’m a SAHM and my DH is all for it. I do everything in the house. The only thing I don’t touch is the lawn mower. But I do all the cleaning up when my husband mows. The house is cleaned weekly, all meals are made from scratch every day, laundry is always done on time, the children’s homework is helped along by me, car washing, bathing the kids falls to me (they are girls), etc. I maintain my weight on the lower end of the BMI scale for my height and I try to always be groomed around the house. I don’t have time to bring in any money on the side and aside from helping my husband who works from home as well on his business end (clerical stuff), I’m not bringing any cash in. I do try my best to get the most for our money when shopping for our family. Having said all that, this post seems sad and offensive. There seems to be an ultimate expectation of divorce and if you’re running the MAP then why should there be? I guess I’m a bit confused about the point intended. If we all follow what Athol preaches (and for the record, what he preaches does work for both spouses), why would I need to be worriedly obsessing about divorce and my husband worried about having me as a “dependent”? If a man is that worried, wouldn’t a prenup handle his worries?

    It seems that as with everything else, *some* acting poorly deem the whole group offensive. I know some SAHM’s are lazy and entitled. But for those of us SAHM’s that work our asses off and keep ourselves in shape and are always up for welcoming our men with smiles and willing growly sex – how about appreciating what having us at home means to the men and their children? My husband says it would cost us more to have me working; between daycare costs, higher taxes and likely higher food costs from takeout, etc.

  17. I have to agree with some of the consensus out there saying the SAHM is getting more lazy and entitled in the modern age. I’ll refer back to what Athol once wrote about the sheer amount of work/labor involved in running a household relative to 50-70years ago. Couple that with the mommy networking where they all convince & compete against one another for the prize of best mommy or whomever has the best fictional family front and highest status. Then apply more pressure to their husbands to coach teams, shuttle, perform household chores, cover for “girls trips” etc etc etc. One of our neighbors had 3 kids, a live in nanny and didn’t cook. You got it. Did. Not. Cook. Didn’t wash the car, tend to the yard nuthin’. And claimed stress and exhaustion the whole time. I could rattle off at least another half dozen similar examples. Another person I know works from home on Fridays to help with the kids. Great idea right? Except every weekend he spends another entire day tending to the kids so she can have her “time”. Not their time, her time. And 2 of the 3 kids are in school. Did I mention both of these gents rake in around $400k annually? I could go on and on with stories of SAHM’s whining about exhaustion. Last time I checked, I didn’t get nap time at my day job. The only redeeming factor both of these examples have is both women look very good. And they should. They have all the time and resources in the world to hit the gym and go shopping. I have other firsthand exposure to similar stories where the women don’t even keep themselves up. I’m not saying they’re all like this. But generally my positive examples are older women who seemed to realize staying home to run the household and tend the kiddos needs, while grooming them into productive adults is a priviledge. A priviledge they also understand that as women, they are (generally speaking) hard wired to nurture. Yeah some may say that’s sexist but I belive women have incredible strengths I could not possibly ever match. Likewise for male traits.

  18. I am a bit confused by this post. I thought the assumption was that if a man adopted your policies he would get an adoring wife who was anxious to please him and keep looking lovely for him etc. So why wouldn’t a stay at home wife be doing all that stuff and doting on him etc? And why would she even think of divorcing him when he’s so marvellous?

    I agree it’s silly to say being a housewife is the most difficult job in the world, but it isn’t the easiest either, it can be very tiring when the children are small. I certainly had jobs that were easier from the point of view of being less tiring (if also less interesting).

    Also, unless you live on a desert island or something, it isn’t that hard to get to see other adults during the day. You can always go to the library, or join an adult education class or volunteer to work in a charity shop or something.

  19. I’ve been a SAHD since 1997, but have run a full time business from home as well as doing most of the household duties as well. We had one car to keep costs down, so everyday I ran both kids to school, made their lunches, then dropped their mother off at work. I’d hit the gym for an hour a couple of times a week befroe going back home, when I did I’d throw a couple of loads of laundry on, pick out something for dinner, load the dishwasher, clean the kitchen up and try and squeeze 4 or 5 hours of work in before I had to pick the kids up at 3;30pm. By 4:30 I’d be getting dinner on, picking up my wife when ever she was off. In the evening I’d try and get couple more hours of work in. I did all that plus the usual “ManStuff” , the yard, renovations, fix the car etc……..everyday rinse and repeat. There were a lot of times I really missed adult contact and I could see where some people might have problems with it, but it really wasn’t that bad of a life.

    Sad to say though, my marriage was one of those where I think my wife resented me not making enough to allow her to stay home. She never said as much, but since she left it has got back to me it was an issue for her, the fact the guy she hooked up with makes far more than I do speaks volumes. Now I have to do it all, work full time. It isn’t always easy, but it’s certainly not the hardest job in the world

  20. Milf_in_training says:

    As other people said, there’s SAH and there’s SAH.

    My special needs little one started school 3 months before the one who needed emergency infant surgery was born. By the time that one was in school, I had my own (small) business I ran from home. I also volunteered a lot at school and in the community (among adults), and wrangling the school special needs stuff. Definitely SAHM Plus! None of this was good enough for Mr Batshit, because it wasn’t the way his Mom did it. She was a schoolteacher who didn’t mind having her first grade kid walk home alone to an empty house in the big city they lived in.

  21. For all you ladies posting here talking about the great job you do as SAHMs, I salute you all, and I hope your husbands appreciate all you do. Unfortunately, from what other men and I myself have seen, you ladies seem to be a distinct minority. All too many SAHMs we’ve seen seem to regard SAHM-hood as an all-expenses-paid (by the husband of course!) perpetual vacation where they don’t have to do a damn thing and God help the husbands if they DARED to speak out about this; like Athol said in his post above, they have few good alternatives to change the situation. Unlike a lazy worker at a paid job, it’s very difficult to “fire” a lazy SAHM/W, and she has few incentives to not be lazy.

    That’s why any man who contemplates having a SAHM had better make sure the woman he’s looking at has the aptitude, and more importantly the inclination, to be a SAHM-plus. And the thing is, it seems like few young women I’ve seen these days have either going for them, and even having those as requirements gets a man called sexist in many circles. How many young women these days can even cook? Or even WANT to? Such a woman wanting to be a SAHM is most likely just wanting a perpetual staycation on the husband’s dime. A man would have to be VERY careful to avoid this type as mother of his kids.

  22. It seems to me that the reality in the U.S. is that the percentage of mothers who can afford to quit working, whether they want to or not, is probably pretty low. If you read the article, you will see that they surveyed 1000 women, 67% of whom did work outside of the home. The survey results also said that 69% percent of women felt financial pressure to work because their families can’t survive without their income, but at the same time 52% felt from their spouse they they were/are not spending enough time with their children. The article didn’t say that women are quitting their jobs in droves to stay home with their kids. It gave one example of a woman who quit to stay home with her young daughter; her husband apparently supported her decision and she says they could financially afford it. I think that situations like hers are the exception and not the rule.

  23. Anyone saying there’s nothing to do for a SAHM is just not even making the smallest effort to think. Among the possibilities:
    – Homeschooling the kids (honestly, we all know that public school sucks, and is philosophically committed to lying to our children about almost everything including their sexuality)
    – Gardening (might be a critical survival skill in the coming economic crash)
    – Organizing local clubs or events (my wife actually runs a gardening club)
    – Crafts–point a woman in the direction of Pinterest and give her $40/week for supplies and just stand back
    – Elderly care–there are tons of places that need part-timers and volunteers to help the elderly
    – Tutoring, teaching English as a second language, etc…
    – art, photography, music, etc…
    – sewing, embroidery, etc…
    – homesteading — aside from gardening, there is a host of other old-time homesteading skills that are being revived these days, such as making your own soap, canning, raising chickens, making yarn, etc… For a good start, read the book “The Backyard Homestead”.

    And, many of these non-earning avocations can still pay for themselves via savings. If you can raise 1/3 of your food in a garden, think of how that impacts your budget for the year. Not to mention, getting much healthier food…

  24. John Q Galt says:

    My STBX was a SAHM for 10 years. Who knows..with alimony being what it is, she might get to keep that up for another 10 years.

    I’d NEVER, EVER, allow my next wifey to be a SAHM nor would I counsel otehr men to do that for the following reason:

    –As others have said, it’s impossible to fire a SAHM. Having a real job keeps them accountable for pleasing SOMEONE, instead of becoming an entitled princess.
    –Boredom…running a modern household isn’t a hard job, it’s actually a pretty easy part time job. Idle hands are the devil’s workshop.
    –Jerks at work…any workplace is going to ahve its share of freaks. The colleague with halitosis. The backstabber. The philanderer. The chronic tardy. Hubby looks pretty good by comparison….while if hubby is one of few people she sees, she will focus on every little flaw until she isn’t Haaaaappy.
    –If you have to be “on” and busting ass at work all the time, home becomes a refuge for the wife, as it is for the husband.
    –Work is hard. And thankless. Honestly, I think my STBX thinks there is a checkbook fairy who magically refills the checking account every two weeks. She does not appreciate how hard I work to get us what we have.
    –Cure for solipsism. If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy…while in the workplace, it’s all about the boss, the customers, whatever. Contributing to something bigger than her reminds Princess that she is not, in fact, the center of the universe. AND that having a husband who treats her with solicitude is a very good thing, not the natural way of the universe.
    –Hubby expertise….I’m VERY good at what I do. And that fact is irrelevant to a SAHM. She sees me when I come home from work…and I’m a decent dad, a pretty good cook, and a semi-competaet handyman. She does NOT see the fact that people at work listen to my opinion. That I’m well regarded. To her, a VP is just a guy she’s been sharing a bed with for 16 years.
    –Stray at Home wives….if she’s in the workplace, yeah, she is exposed to the alphas who are always looking good. however, she’s also exposed to the female colleagues who are younger, tighter, and hotter…and she sees them flirting with the middle aged managers. Which should get the hamster working. Whereas the SAHM has free time to hit Facebook, get hit on at the grocery store, etc.

    I hope the women on here really are good, grateful, productive SAHM’s. I’ll tell you that based on my experience, the really lousy wives were teh SAHM’s. The part time workers were MUCH better. The full timers were even better than that.

  25. One great thing feminists have wrought if you get divorced and you are a SAHD or make less money than your wife, you get child support if you split custody.

    I hear rumbles from lawyers that the fembots are trying to change that some way but for the forseeable future there may be no greater joy than, “I have to pay HIM?!”

  26. John Q Galt says:

    Other points:
    –Living with disappointment…in the workplace, we all get disappointments….passed over for promotion. Deal we were working on fell through. Crappy bonus. Etc. Where a SAHM’s disappointments are primarily the result of something Hubby did, or didn’t do.

    I’ll give you specific examples of how a working woman completely blows a SAHM away, based on my personal experience. After I learned of Wifey’s boyfriend and plans to leave me, we gave each other permission to date. I’ve started kind of seeing a woman. She isn’t exactly my GF, but that’s what I’ll call her for clarity. I’ll refer to STBX Wifey as “SAHM”.

    SAHM thinks money grows on trees.
    GF has been busting ass for 16 years and makes half what I do. She is impressed.

    Dinner: I cook most of the meals.
    SAHM thinks this is the natural state of affairs.
    GF REALLY appreciates sipping a glass of wine while I do my thing. Bonus points when I get off work before she does and she walks into a kiss, a smile, and a set of wonderful smells.

    Time with me:
    SAHM sees the little irritating things I do.
    GF sees the irritating things I do, and they are nothing compared to some of the freaks she works with.

    Competance: GF is a banker with a small community bank. I’m in finance also.
    SAHM doesn’t understand what I do, and thinks everyone can do it.
    GF is impressed with the fact I do everything she does, but my deals have an extra two zeros on them.

    Work environment:
    SAHM sets her own schedule, comes and goes as she pleases, and has no supervision
    GF occasionally gets her ass chewed because someone else didn’t do their job…and so she couldn’t do hers.

    Shared space:
    The house is SAHM’s workspace. I don’t really belong there.
    GF sees my apartment or her house when I’m there as a refuge.

    Competence #2:
    GF and I talk about work problems, how to handle difficult colleagues, the stupidity of American corporate life. She values my opinion and/or likes when I listen.
    SAHM has no parellel. When she’s in a tough spot (dealing with a tradesman, school issues, etc), she expects me to drop what I’m doing and help. Because they are MY children and MY house, after all.

    I know some of this is temporary, and GF will eventually probably take some of the things I do for granted. Much more of it is structural though – the ass chewings, wierd colleagues, disappointments, etc.

  27. John Q Galt says:

    @Rycamor: I don’t know any SAHM’s who do those things

    The closest I’ve come is the couple we bought the house from….she was a hairdresser at the house.

    This is based on two neighborhoods in two different States where I’ve lived.

  28. Butch Hobson says:

    Marriage 2.ho. Magnificent.

    I had sole custody of the kids for about a year and stayed home to do it. When the moms at the playground asked how I was managing The Hardest Job Ever ™, I said “You ever try to meet a sales quota?”

  29. I think it’s irresponsible and intellectually lazy as hell to be a SAHM or SAHD and not homeschool your kids. You have a golden opportunity to give your kids the best damn education they can never get at public school and really build a solid relationship with them and you watch them go to school on the bus??? It is really a disgrace that people are so selfish that they cannot bother to put in real time and effort for their kids, there is literally no excuse! SAHM(D)s have plenty of time to learn how to teach their kids and the resources are near endless with the internet.

  30. Joe_Commenter says:

    Most SAHM work is made up work. nobody gives a rip whether the house is spotless or not, except for the SAHM’s relatives. The sterilized home cleanliness standards that many women claim to want to aspire to are simply unnecessary and are a vanity thing. Who cares if there are finger prints on the mirror? If you don’t have bugs running around your house. If you are clean enough to not spread germs around, the rest is overkill. I can hire out a maid for $200/month to do what needs to be done. The rest is something that can be easily accomplished by two working parents. A bored housewife is a recipe for disaster.

  31. How funny that women first bitched about not getting to work, and now they’re bitching about not getting to stay at home! Really, make up your mind already and stop acting like a spoiled toddler.

    As a SAHM of three pre-schoolers myself (4.5 yr old, 2.5 yr old, and 16 months), I envy the SAHMs whose kids are in school all day. So many of them treat those hours like an extended lunch break…they go to the store and stop for coffee and a sandwich at the shop next door, then head over to the salon, etc. Or maybe they just sit home and mess around on the computer. Seriously?! I get the whole “who’s going to watch the kids over the summer” thing, but you could at least get a part-time job of some sort during the school year!

    I also don’t understand the women who want to “stay home and raise their kids”, but then have a nanny, babysitter, send the kids to a toddler “class” (aka daycare), etc. Um, you aren’t raising them if they’re being taken care of by someone else all day! And the moms I’ve known who “homeschool” their kids are really screwing up their kids’ education…3 hours a day is not “school”, when they have to sit in classes for 6 hours at the regular public school. How will those kids’ educations compare to their peers? Not good.

    As for the money thing, it *can* be a financial luxury, or it can be a sacrifice. We don’t go on vacations or spend money on takeout, etc. I try to shop carefully for food and groceries to spread the money as far as it will go. If there’s extra, it’s always for savings or an extra payment on the car loans. Definitely not as fun, but helps us worry less about money and know we’re going to be better off financially in the future.

  32. This subject always puzzles me, as it’s not the first time Athol has brought it up. I was raised by my parents to be a SAHM, and my husband was raised by his parents to marry one. He won’t even think of “letting” me go to work, not even when he was laid off from his job due to downsizing. Thankfully, he found a new job right away with comparible pay. But I digress…As a SAHM, I am so busy that I often feel like I need a wife. Between homeschooling, cooking from scratch, grocery shopping, clothes shopping (and sewing when I get a chance), cleaning, exercising/make up/ hair, I have no time. And my other friends are the same, but some manage to get more done than I even do, although they take more shortcuts with their cooking. I don’t know any lazy SAHM’s, although I’m sure they exist. It just isn’t acceptable and any friend who was found out to be lazy would be confronted.

  33. …And I should probably clarify that I do work part-time myself, so there’s that. I don’t mean to say that *I* am the example or anything like that, just pointing out that I’ve seen many examples of what *not* to do.

  34. The Cleavers says:

    I have to say that I am really surprised at how judgmental this post was, and a lot of the responses. Isn’t the point of this blog and forum to promote strong relationships regardless of what that looks like from the outside? What is the point of ganging up on other members over a personal, and often very hard choice? Choosing to stay at home to take care of your kids requires thought and sacrifice. Needing to trust someone else to watch your kids so both partners can work is another hard decision. I think it is a little misleading to say that the only way that you can ” fail” is having the government come and take you kids. It could be a lot worse, your kids could end up sitting at home in their underwear, writing a blog and playing World of Warcraft.

  35. @John Q Galt: How much of that is because she’s a SAHM, and how much of that is because she’s kind of a piece of shit? Considering she cheated on you, I’m kind of guessing the latter….

    I understand your frustration, though.

  36. P.S. Totally off topic, but I’m LOLing at this hot college chick with 5 beta orbiters hanging out at Starbucks while I type this. Oy. The stuff you see when you’ve taken the Red Pill.

  37. John Q Galt says:


    I don’t know whether to laugh my ass off or be offended. Well played, ma’am.

  38. John Q Galt says:

    But arguably, she would not have been a piece of shit had she not been a SAHM….

  39. @John Yeah, I wasn’t meaning to offend, sorry if I did ;) Perhaps underlying unseen shittiness is magnified by the transition to SAHMness. Hmm yes, plausible theory is plausible.

  40. Things that this SAHM brings to the table:

    – My husband never has to take time off of work for sick kids.
    – My husband walks in the door every night to happy children and a hot, homecooked meal. I cook from scratch.
    – Our older child is homeschooled. Our younger child is not (this year) because my husband said not.
    – I don’t think my husband has ever paid a bill. Nor does he do laundry, dust, or clean the bathrooms. (No, this doesn’t mean I think I’m awesomesauce and the yard work isn’t harder. Duh. If I could do it, I would. OBVIOUSLY it’s harder.) He cooks if he feels like it – once a month?
    – My husband works in IT, and his hours can be very irregular. Because I am a SAHM, this doesn’t matter insofar as the running of the family is concerned. Kids are fed, bathed, homeworked and the world keeps turning.
    – I am well aware that my husband’s job is harder than is mine, and therefore my priority is to give him the best darn home-experience that I can. I am also on the lookout for ways that I can take things that I am good at and turn them to a profit.
    – I keep a garden. It’s a sad garden, but I have one. I sew for myself and my daughter, as well as odd bits of home-dec sewing. Of course I know the cheapest (and best) places in town to buy all of our regular consumables. I’m on a school planning board, though it doesn’t meet particularly often. I write for TC occasionally. Homemade broth – I don’t eat grains anymore so no more homebaked bread. I did that for a year or two…

    So. We do exist. ;)

  41. As Hearthrose said, they do exist. My wife homeschools, sews, gardens, and has quite a few other pasttimes. Not the norm these days, to be sure. Generally we can see that being deeply religious makes this sort of thing more likely. Also, I would say getting away from cosmopolitan areas is another one. When wifey and I moved to a more rural area, we found many families living like this. More than I would have expected. Many wives in our social circle tend to become proficient at some skill or other and then have get-togethers where they share and teach it to others. It’s really a good thing.

    And I think that’s a major point, BTW. If your social circles don’t provide motivation for doing good, healthy, wholesome, productive things with your life… time to change circles.

    Now, the important thing for these kinds of SAHM wives to remember is balance. It is easy to get in the habit of providing comfort and nurture and get caught up in the whirlwind of all the things there are to do, and start forgetting about your husband’s other needs.

  42. I would have loved a wife who was a SAHM like all you ladies described. Last time I saw one in person was my mom as she raised us. My ex was the exact opposite of what you all describe. I say that without a hint of exaggeration. Okay maybe 2% exaggeration, the kids didn’t starve and were dressed.

    She would do stuff that was really passive aggressive or I guess overt aggressive, like cook dinner for the kids and herself and then I would get home from my big man on campus executive management jobby job and find that there was nothing for me and no clue in her brain that it might be a smart play to feed the dude that is currently ensuring the family doesn’t have to live at a homeless shelter. But nope. She would even throw away the leftovers before I got home so that I got nothing. WTF? Yeah. She hated me.

    I’m never going down that road again. No more marriage for me for starters, but if I ever get crazy and move a vagina into my home again I’m going to be the biggest, most merciless prick of a boss. I will even tie her up and spank that ass if the dinner is not done just so. Ball gags. I will make her wear one in public as we lovingly walk hand in hand to the PTA meeting.

    (Bet if I was a troubled billionaire you’d think that was hot and cute and not sexist. Am I right? Can I get an amen sisters?). The Lolz!!!!!

    BTW, thanks for sharing the misplaced dick size comment at the top of the list. I got a big ROFL from that.

    In general, probably the chicks who read this blog are on the positive side of the curve. As to any SAHM I would meet in real life who tried to “sell me” on how hard they got it, I call bullshit. Yup. Bullshit.

    I run a business, make payroll for employees, work a lot, and deal with all kinds of wacky clients. I have both kids full time and I do it all. The SAHD part of it probably takes a whole 15 hours a week of actual chores. I don’t include home repair and lawn care in that figure. Which even if a guy has a SAHM and he works full-time, he’ll still have to do all that stuff or the other guys in the ‘hood will think he’s ghey or something.

    (And bad talk about him to his wife and try to make moves on her. Married guys, keep your lawn mowed.)

    The rest is fun stuff we do together so I don’t count that. I’ll give you that if they were little it would be more work, but still it isn’t the hardest job in the world with all of our modern conveniences.

    It’s not like 99% of moms have to go out back and milk cows or be up before dawn to start making bread like my great grandmother. It’s not like they go out to the coop and chop the head off a chicken for dinner and wash clothes by hand like my grandmother did for a good chunk of her marriage.

    All this bitching and complaining by American wives are luxury problems. People who are worried about starving to death, their kids dying from lack of basic medicine or if they are going to wind up in a political prison camp don’t have time for such complaints about how ‘hard’ they have it. Hell, take a trip to Haiti. I dare you. Go on. Dare you.

    Explain to the women there about the roughness of life that the average American wife has to endure or how your average American husband is so sniff, sniff “insensitive.” Hehe. See how they will look at you. Then you will feel the shame you should and realize how good you have it compared to all women, across all cultures, across all of human history.

    But just like chicks, it still isn’t good enough for most. The Lolz!!!!! I love it!!!

    Thou doth protest too much…

    (Hugz, Honk)

  43. Hesedshesed says:

    All of the SAHM that are listing what they do and how they aren’t the crappy ones kind of crack me up. And yes, I too am a SAHM. But nothing I have read really impresses me. Caveat: I am not doing any better myself. I mean, rasing the kids, cooking, ensuring they get good education (whether it be homeschool or some other type), doing laundry, cleaning, etc. is what you are suppossed to do. It is the MINIMUM required to be a SAHM (plus providing for the sexual needs of the husband, while you get yours from him of course).

    I look at my husband and over 9 years of marriage he has progressively moved forward in his career. We continue to slowly but surely make more money, live in better housing, he is better at the man chores and we drive better vehicles than when we were married. Not that those things ensure happiness, but how do SAHMs improve their worth? Sure, we have added more kids and intially that increased the workload some what, but now we are done. From here on out, the kids will get older and eventually move out, thereby decreasing my workload. My husband has made it clear that he wants a fulltime stay at home mom until the youngest is in school (for the development aspects but more because it makes financial sense), then he fully expects me to go back work, seeing as he paid for a good portion of my college tuition and then the student loans I had. I am sure that when I go back, he is going to expect a majority of the house chores to still be done, which I will do with help from effective child labor management ;). Otherwise, I better learn how to change the oil, rotate tires, mow the lawn, …..

  44. enlightened1 says:

    Galt, Over it, et al.~
    WoW! Huge range of experiences and I don’t normally comment but can’t resist this time. I was a Mom who chose to teach my children instead of send them to school because I was bored as hell in school (not college) and wanted them to love to learn. So I taught them everything. They’re incredible skiers, rock climbers, equestrians, long distance runners and all have fascinating hobbies. But SAHM never defined who I am, because we rarely stayed home. I would put something in the crock pot and we’d go off and learn for the day, and yes formal lessons can be done in 2-3 hours. I am an entrepreneur. I started the business my husband and I owned. I flipped houses for extra money (the children came with me and they learned lots of skills, from supervising people to mud and tape), cooked everything from scratch (even ground my own wheat for bread-what was wrong with me!) and managed to educate my children. How’d they do? Well, my oldest just got several scholarships and is attending a private highly selective college on West coast. Next two children both have full academic scholarships to a private elite high school that they tested into (25K each per year-really!). They are all 4.0 students. They spent one year at a public high school and announced they would never go back to school again as it was mind numbing. My youngest has some disabilities that we are working through but doing well and adjusting after the divorce. DIVORCE!?!! Yup. Seems that ambitious SAHM’s who work their asses off can get screwed in divorces too. I got no alimony or spousal support and almost nothing for child support. And, btw I am 5’8″ and 130 lbs and still occasionally model. I think one of the reasons my children are successful is I invested huge amounts of time with them as I had no life (sex or otherwise) with my husband. Well, and I also am an extremely committed Mom. My husband was the only man I ever slept with so I didn’t know how odd it was that he never wanted to have sex with me. I knew something was wrong right after we married but I couldn’t divorce him because of my religious convictions and the advice I got to keep working on it. It was devastating and wounding but I just tried harder and harder to be a great wife and beautiful and attractive and accomplished so he would want me. Kind of the equivalent of a beta husband on steroids. It didn’t work. And that’s the rub I hear on this site from men and women. My only regret is that I didn’t have an affair. I know the mantra is to take the high road and I read about all you poor guys who had wives who cheated on you but if I would have had an affair I would have figured out post haste how bad the sex was and that there was something wrong (not with me) and I wouldn’t have wasted so much of my young life! We have 4 children so people assume we had frequent sex but I tell them all you know for sure is we had sex four times and that’s not a big exaggeration. I’m pretty sure he’s a closet gay christian and I made him look straight for 20 years! So, after reading Athol’s site for the last 2 years I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter if you are a man or a women, if you are giving valuable things (time, energy, resources) to a spouse and they are not giving you valuable things back, quit doing that! Value yourself and examine your belief in a God that would require that of you. I am still deeply spiritual and I believe God has brought me through this emotional, physical, spiritual hell and delivered me free on the other side (too many miracles not to believe!) and I know I will meet and have a relationship someday with someone who loves and values me because that’s what God wants for me and each one of us. But now I don’t believe in the same God that Athol doesn’t believe in! So SAHM’s can rock or they can suck. Executive husbands that bring home the bucks can be great or they can abuse and use you. You don’t get a choice about whether you create your life. You only get a choice about whether you create a life you love.

  45. enlightened1 says:

    Oh! And one more thing: it never occurred to me that being a SAHM was the hardest job in the world; but I always knew it was the most privileged.

  46. I love you for calling bullshit on Mary Kay. That cult breaks up more marriages than soap operas.

  47. whatmeworry says:

    I think the takeaway is that this is an issue of personal character. There are at least as many opportunities to stray at work (and at the associated social activities) as there are SAH, but laziness described here is less likely to manifest within the structure of a ‘job’. Given the choice of an ideal SAHM managing my household/ raising my kids vs. an extra income (from which the IRS takes the majority anyway) and farming out the above, I’d take the former.

  48. “Oh and $1500 of Mary Kay cosmetics in the hall closet and you selling $40 of foundation to your mother doesn’t count as “plus something”. That’s called you wasting $1460.”

    Hahaha love it. Freaking salespeople and those tupperware/makeup/miracle juice parties. What a joke.

  49. Trimegistus says:

    Sorry, I don’t buy it. My wife works, and I’ve done my share of solo parenting. It’s not so hard — and the complaints about isolation are absurd in the age of the Internet. You can have an online argument about whether postmodernism is inherently fascist while the kid crawls around underfoot.

    Here’s another data point: if child care is so damned difficult, why do we let 13-year-olds do it? It’s illegal for a 13-year-old to drive a truck or work in a McDonald’s, but it’s perfectly legal and socially acceptable to hire a middle schooler to watch your baby. More importantly, the 13-year-olds can do a good job of child care. They’d screw up if you let them do your taxes or pilot a tugboat, but they have no trouble taking care of babies.

  50. Just an observation,

    The red pill women who post here seem to be quite an exceptional, self-selected lot. Maybe it seems normal to you ladies, but let me tell you, it’s like waking up in dreamland.

  51. I would never say my SAHM job is the most difficult in the world. I worked in “the world” for many years and faced deadlines, screaming bosses, angry clients, etc. I feel privileged to stay home and do my best to work as hard as I can for at least the same hours my husband is off working.
    He has a high level executive job at a technology company and I don’t even understand what he is saying on his concalls. There is no way I could do his job for 5 minutes.
    We saved for our entire early 20’s so that I could be a SAHM when we finally had kids. When other women say to me “It’s not fair you get to stay home all day!” I want to smack them. I agree the red pill women here are probably exceptional. I see other SAHM’s when my daughter plays with their kids. Their houses are a total wreck and they get drive-thru for dinner. I”m thinking “What the heck do you DO all day?”

  52. Lot’s of good stories here in the comments describing the different types of SAHM’s out there. It works great for some, less well for others.

    What really bothered me about the article is the idea of women using this as a fitness test for their husbands. I know great married couples with sub-$30k annual incomes and 3 or 4 kids who manage to get by with the mother staying at home, because that more important to them than Big House/New Car/Consume Everything lifestyle. You don’t have to *want* to be a SAHM, but don’t pretend it’s what you really want if you’re not willing to trade in your 2-year-old Lexus and downgrade homes to a more affordable mortgage in order to do it.

  53. 2manypasswords says:

    There are some SAHMs who genuinely work hard for whatever reason (b/c of 3 kids under age 5, husband travels alot for work, etc.). No doubt about it.

    With that said, too many of the SAHMs I know are sheltered, self-absorbed, and too focused on the kids. We live near a large amusement park & one SAHM in my neighborhood thought it bordered on being child abuse when we didn’t buy season passes for the park one summer. Alot of them will drive their kids all over town for organized sports…but won’t make them walk their butts a 1/2 mile up the street to school. And, so far as I can tell, it’s the SAHMs moreso than the dads who demand 3,000 sq. ft. houses when they have only 2 blasted kids.

    I agree there are plenty of guys in the world who need to take the red pill. But the only way to have an honest discussion about that is to acknowledge there are also too many women in the world who act like a princess & think they are somehow owed a lifestyle that relatively few can have or sustain over time.

  54. Dreadpiratkevin says:

    I’m sitting here reading this while ‘working’ from home- ok, goofing off for a minute, but I’m listening to my wife home school our two youngest daughters and thinking, my job is harder then hers? No, not really, at least not in the moment. I don’t know about SAHM’s in general, but homeschooling moms are the hardest working people I know, and many, like my wife, also work part time as well. It’s an enormous job, and it never really stops, but it’s totally worth it. Of course ‘hard’ is a very relative term. Even the most difficult jobs are not ‘hard’ when you love doing them.

    Anecdotaly, after being active in the homeschooling community for 22 years, I don’t know a single homeschooling family that has gone through a divorce. I should clarify that to ‘active and involved homeschooling families’. We’re well aware of the home school in name only types, but that seldom lasts very long. Even doing it poorly is a lot of work.

  55. For men who really love their jobs and would work as hard at the same thing anyway, supporting a woman who then gets the possibility of doing part time work or volounteer work that is much more enjoyable to her than the work she would have had to do if she had to support herself I guess is ok but makes me somewhat ambivalent. For men who don`t love their jobs and who would probably like to work less or do something different (men very often choose more lucrative fields and jobs soleley because of the need to be a provider) This is grossly unfair. I would DEEPLY resent working hard at something lucrative that I chose above something more interesting and enjoyable or just working less, so that my wife could do more enjoyable, interesting and less profitable things. It is grossly unfair, women in such marriages should not get a dime after a divorce.

    We now have a society where most men have shitty boring jobs (and one third or so of women resent their men for not making enough off of them) and some men have great interesting jobs. Women on the other hand have not only the same odds as men at getting a great interesting job they also often have the option at opting out and being STAHM or working part time at something interesting and enjoyable if their full time options don`t turn out so rewarding. Actually, it would be more correct to say that women ahve a much better chance of ending up in interesting and enjoyable full time jobs as well since the lack of expectation of being a provider alows them to choose the full time jobs they want instead of those who brings home the backon. This in turn means they can choose more interesting college majors. So basically the structure is high odds for women of filling their days with something enjoyable that they want, be it full time, a part time mix or staying home with the kids with high odds that men will spend their days working with something they would rather not be doing. Fucking great. In addition society wastes immense amounts of resources on college education for women that only work full time for a few years, then stays at home with the kids and later works part time, quite possibly at something not relevant to their education. I`d really like to see the math on what society earns from giving a man a college education as oposed to what society earns by giving a woman a college education. Again, a huge bill paid by men for women to enjoy tehmselves without consequences.

  56. We can add in that for any woman who works a high paying job that a man also wanted she pushes a man that actually needs that job to be able to support his wife staying at home or having the option to work part time at what she wants or full time at something low paying and enjoyable, so to avoid being resented by her. For every woman who society uses resources on in order to provide her with a degree and don`t uses it or don`t uses it very much there is a man society could have spent that money on in order to help a man that would give society full returns on that degree by working full time for life.

  57. So interesting to read the different opinions on SAHMs. I won’t be one even though we could probably try for it, and I live in Utah where it is quite common. I am going back to work when our son is 12 weeks old, which I think is too early, but my mother-in-law will be helping taking care of him for a month, and we have a home care type arrangement with a grandmother who lives close to us.

    I have several female friends with young kids working full time, who still work out, make their family meals, clean, and find time to sit down and do homework with them and educate them. One is a woman with a PhD from Berkeley, and another has a master’s. I won’t pretend it’s not going to suck being away from our baby for so long during the day, but both I and my husband were in daycare, and it didn’t doom us.

    We’ll see how it goes, but I don’t think working moms have it that bad. My job is stable, low-stress, has flexible hours, good pay and benefits, and it’s hard to justify the huge blow to our income and financial stability with just taking care of one young child.

  58. Darn it! I missed this one yesterday!

    I was a SAHD for several years and you could say that I still qualify as one. Unless, you are super clear with your wife when the man stays home, it’s going to cause resentment, DLV, and just plain being super beta. I think I almost went insane raising two boys at home. I’m sure I would trade that in an instant and stayed in my computer engineering job. The problem was my wife was in senior management at a large telecom and made 4x what I did. But she REALLY wanted someone to be home with the kids. I should’ve had more backbone and put them in daycare. Don’t ever do it! Oh, after several years of being a beta Nice Guy, she tried to start and affair (which I squashed) but that was when I took the red pill and here I am. I am actively looking for a job since our kids are 8 and 10 and there really isn’t a good reason to stay home anymore full time. I did run a business out of the house, but I am going to shut that down since I need a real paycheck.

    On the issue of SAHM in general, I think it’s a great idea if you can afford it. If you can afford it, you gotta do what you gotta do. Since I am still a SAHD, I interact with a lot of SAHM and I see so many of them just give up on their looks and their ability to interact with adults. They get fat and wear sweat pants all the time. They are 100% about their kids and there is nothing else. I would never want my wife to be like that. Then as my kids get into 3rd and 4th grade. So many of them have no skills and now couldn’t get a decent job if they wanted and they just stay home and take care of things. By the time your kid hits 10, really unless you have like 4 or 5 kids, there is not point in staying home. Do something, even part time work…

  59. When the moms at the playground asked how I was managing The Hardest Job Ever ™, I said “You ever try to meet a sales quota?”
    This. I’ve never had a sales job; I know I couldn’t hack it.

  60. @Jack Amok
    Hey, that’s clever. SAHM’s sure are less important than heart surgeons. Now explain how they are less important than your average corporate office rat, retail worker, or fast food cashier.

    Let’s be honest here. There are a ton of jobs that provide almost nothing of real value to society. They exist solely to allow corporations to function, and some of them are even made up on the fly to inflate the employment rate and keep people from rioting in the streets. While there are of course hard-working people in these jobs, there are also tons of leeches. I encounter people every day at my job who are being paid to sit around and let other people (myself included) pick up their slack. (There’s even a guy who sleeps at his desk literally every day, and the company will not fire him for fear of reprisal, because he has a “medical condition” that is apparently just severe enough to prevent him from working, but not severe enough to prevent him from chatting or surfing the web after his naps.)

    So yes, plenty of SAHMs slack off and don’t do anything productive, but people in tons of other “real” professions are doing exactly the same thing. It’s just even more annoying when a SAHM slacks off because there’s no paycheck no matter what they do. So, if you have a SAHM who doesn’t do anything of value, send her ass to work so she can get paid to be useless.

    I also vote that SAHMs who have nannys and refuse to cook be dubbed SAHLs (Stay at Home Leeches).

  61. I’m a bit baffled by the comments that a housewife should be homeschooling her children. Does being at home with your children mean you suddenly develop an ability to teach? I know I have no such ability myself, and am in no way qualified to teach anything. One of my sons was at home for two years because he had to leave his secondary school on account of various problems, but we were only able to manage it because we could afford to pay for some private tuition for him, he’s frightfully brainy and the thought of trying to teach him anything terrifies me. Usually he is trying to explain something to me and I am failing to comprehend.

  62. Also I notice that some of the people who sniff at the idea of stay at home mothers nevertheless expect Someone to be willing to look after their little brats, whether a grandmother, childminder, or somebody. If looking after children is such a boring and pointless activity – why do they expect anyone else to be willing to care for their boring offspring?

  63. enlightened1 says:

    “In addition society wastes immense amounts of resources on college education for women that only work full time for a few years, then stays at home with the kids and later works part time, quite possibly at something not relevant to their education”
    Whoah!! So educating women is a waste of resources? Ouch! Society didn’t pay for my education. I did. Women are now overtaking men in the high paying fields which is changing the dynamics of men/women relationships and is why blogs like this are needed. Blaming women because you don’t like your job is lame. Virtual noogies on the noggin for Gene.

  64. John Q Galt says:

    @louise I’m having trouble separating the complete lack of logic from the gratuitous insults.

    You seem to be saying that SAHM’s work is unfairly devalued because it can be outsourced, whether to a professional or to a grandmother.

    Can you explain your reasoning? If a task is one that can be given to a retired person; or can be cheaply outsourced, isn’t that an argument that being a SAHM is actually a pretty EASY job?

  65. John Q Galt says:

    “Whoah!! So educating women is a waste of resources? Ouch! Society didn’t pay for my education. I did. ”

    That is a narrow reading of “waste.” Gene is arguing that if the number of seats in the nation’s top colleges are finite, and oversubscribed, then giving a seat at Harvard Law to a woman who will only use her education for 5 years, and excluding a man who might use it for 50, is indeed a waste of resources.

    Frankly, that isn;t logic I subscribe to because I favor each individual competing for the best outcomes for himself/herself, instead of some enlightened dictator choosing winners and losers. Let the best person win.

  66. The majority of thoughts and comments completely disregard 50% of the SAH situation. OK lots of SAHM’s get addicted to facebook or get terribly unhappy sponging off their husbands. I would venture to guess just as many working husbands that encourage their wives to be SAHM’s decide they like the new girl at the gym or that hot new transfer into the office, and decide to divorce their wife who committed professional suicide by becoming a SAHM. It takes a HUGE amount of trust from both sides to agree to the SAH scenario. The risk is great for both parties. It is just as easy for the working spouse to screw over the one at home. I’m guessing it is a whole lot easier for the working spouse to recover from a SAH disaster than for the one that has the gaping hole in work history on their resume.

  67. @Englightened1
    You are awesome. Thanks for sharing your story…I can see a lot of mine in that. From the no sex to the wanting to create a life that I love and getting stuck in religious rules.

    To everyone else, how the f*** is a woman supposed to *know* that she won’t use her college education for more than a few years? If she does indeed win that seat in college by merit, and pays to keep it, who cares what she does once she gets out of school? We shouldn’t bother educating men who will become alcoholics or mentally deranged either (on the same principle of “limited resources”), but I don’t see anyone pointing that out…

  68. Over It says:

    To everyone else, how the f*** is a woman supposed to *know* that she won’t use her college education for more than a few years? If she does indeed win that seat in college by merit, and pays to keep it, who cares what she does once she gets out of school? We shouldn’t bother educating men who will become alcoholics or mentally deranged either (on the same principle of “limited resources”), but I don’t see anyone pointing that out…

    I have an uncle who trained as a doctor to please my grandparents. Almost as soon as he qualified, he quit and did what he always wanted to do in the first place. He’s very good in his current field, and my grandparents were actually fine with it. But everyone acknowledges that it was a waste of an education, that could have gone to someone who actually wanted to practise medicine. (He admits it, too.) So yes, at least some people admit that men can waste education as well. (I happen to think that too many people, full stop, are going to their level education anyway, and that that is a waste. But that’s a debate for another time.)

    It’s easier to prove that someone is a hypocrite than to prove them wrong. Leave aside the whiiiiine about the alleged double standards. Let’s focus on third level “education”. Tell me how it’s worthwhile to spend taxpayer money (and it *is* taxpayer money) educating people for fields (assuming there’s any use for what they’re doing) if they’re going to quit in a few years?

  69. @Overit:

    Also, it’s not like people are paying for their college educations. At the very least, the taxpayers are being forced to guarantee the loans. In most cases, they’re directly paying for it. He who pays the piper picks the tune.

    And please, provide some numbers. What are the numbers of women giving up/scaling back on their careers if they have children? And what are the numbers of men who become so alcoholic/mentally deranged they can’t work, thereby wasting their education? (It’s also curious that you seem to equate the two, but that’s probably something Freudian.)

  70. The tax payers did not pay for my education. I paid for it myself, at an inexpensive state school, working full time while also taking a full course load. And I wasn’t taking up a seat that a man could have used, because enrollment wasn’t as impacted back then as it is now.

    I do think it was a bit of a waste, but only because I chose a ridiculous major. I wish I had chosen more wisely, even if I knew I was going to be a SAHM. No one knows for sure if they will marry and have children or not, so it’s a gamble either way.

  71. @jessie:

    Inexpensive *state* school? Uh, honey?

  72. enlightened1 says:

    In my circle of friends I’d say 70% both men and women DON’T use the degree they earned in college. A college degree has now just become a prerequisite. When I was hiring all it did was tell me that someone had stuck to something long enough to complete it which was the basic indicator for potential success on a job and unless you are hiring for engineering or accounting it doesn’t much matter what your degree was in. I got “worthless” degrees if the goal of education is to make a ton of money (Psychology w/ Lit and History!) That wasn’t my goal nor is it the goal I teach my sons and daughters. Yet, somehow I’ve managed to put food on the table and books in the hands of my children. We’ve forgotten that education was an end in itself. “Don’t ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.” – quoted from somebody but just can’t remember right now!
    And btw mental health, alcoholism and drug addiction is much more prevalent than you would imagine (my own ex being in a psych. hospital), particularly in educated fields (medicine, dentistry, law, etc.) I think probably because they have access and are so frakking miserable. You get promised that you will have the good life if you spend all this time getting an advanced degree and whaddya know? Get there and for many of them and all it is is money. I just attended my daughters “parent weekend” at her very expensive private college (that I’m not paying for because her brains stole the spot of some poor guy who will have to support a family some day- like maybe you think she won’t?) and do you know what they said is the biggest problem on campus for incoming freshman? Drugs? No. Alcohol? No. Sex? Nope. It was mental health. These kids are being pushed to compete for tough spots in competitive schools so they can make the big bucks and they don’t even start to consider what it is they want to do or who they are; and at your very core you know this is wrong and you’re wasting the only life you have= drugs, alcohol and mental health. But, I ramble and apologize but education is one of my passions. So, chase your passions and the money will come. Maybe not tons but how much do you need? I point to Athol as a perfect example of “chasing his passions”…literally! Lolz.

  73. LOVE Bill Burr. i remember that special. i’m ripping this off.

    and since i’ve never been married, i have nothing to add. nothing left to see here. lol.

  74. @Liz

    Yes. I went to an inexpensive state school. I don’t understand your concern, Please clarify.

  75. I’m glad i don’t know any of these SAHMs who are being reviled here.
    None of the women I know would ever be doing nothing. Many have children, some have jobs, but they are all always doing interesting, social and productive stuff all the time, with and without their children.
    They are mainly feminists ;)
    Maybe I’m moving in the wrong circles?

  76. @Jessie:

    State schools are taxpayer funded.

  77. @Liz

    I guess I could’ve used the example of “men who get an education and then decide to quit working and sit home playing video games all day (maybe in their parents’ basement) while collecting government money”, but I was going for the over-indulged and delusional aspects too…since this whole discussion seems to be about the delusions and over-indulgences of many SAHMs.

    Sorry for the lousy parallel; it was early morning with not enough sleep the night before. I’ll have to remind myself to let my brain wake up fully before commenting next time :)

  78. John Q Galt,

    What I am saying is that those who say being at home with their children is a trivial occupation nevertheless expect SOmeone to be willing to look after their children. Why? If it’s boring and pointless, why woukdn’t it be boring and pointless for someone else? Why should they expect someone else to be willing to do it, if they are not? Why should women be sneered at for looking after their own children rather than dumping them on someone else? If looking after your own kids is such a contemptible thing to do, then maybe all babies should just be taken away from their parents at birth, and raised in communal nurseries?

  79. Somehow people think it virtuous for the mother to dump her baby with someone who doesn’t love it so she can go do some (possibly) menial job and turn her paycheck over to the caregiver. It seems to me a very odd arrangement indeed.

    If you are paid to take care of someone else’s kids, that’s a profession, and highly respectable. If you reduce the steps involved and take care of your own kids, you are a leech and a loser. And probably an adulteress. Although I would think there would be a lot more opportunities to meet exciting new men at work than in your house changing diapers.

  80. I’d be more interested in this discussion if there were better child care options out there, or any prospect of such in the nearish future. I don’t exactly adore being a SAHM a lot of the time, but who do you leave an infant with when your unit deploys for six to fifteen months? Ugh. (“if he calls his grandma “mommy” and his mama “Pam” …he’s going to jail!”

    Or, for “normal people” who watches your kid while you’re at work or commuting fifty, sixty hours a week? Some min-wage worker with five other kids to wrangle?

    Grandma? ;)

    Every couple has to make their own choices on that. There is not a lot of external support either way. I’m impressed the US still has a birth rate around replacement!

    Anyway, most woman I know whose kids are school age wind up back in the paid workforce, part time at a minimum, so I don’t think educating them is a waste. Sheesh.

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