What To Do When You Don’t Get Laid On Date Night

Ah the Date Night, that most hallowed Blue Pill solution to marital woes. If you just had a Date Night once a week, your marriage would magically transform into the delightful paradise that is the ideal marriage.

Well it’s all very nice thinking, but glosses over that fact that 99% of the married people can’t afford a weekly Date Night and it’s also pretty hard to find a decent babysitter as well. Which I guess just makes the husband a failure for not being part of the 1%. Sweet.

Anyway…

Let’s assume like a mission to launch a cool robot to Mars, the planets have sufficiently aligned to green light an attempt at Date Night. Extra cash, check. Baby sitter, check. Expensive fun thing to do, check. Fresh breath, check. Car has gas, check. Purposefully bending over backwards not doing anything to piss her off for 72-96 hours before Date Night, check. Masturbation 24 hours before expected sex to release pressure to avoid awkward premature ejaculation, check.

Houston we have a go.

It starts off really really well. Date Night clears the tower and roars majestically upwards, it’s long tail of red hot desire lighting up the evening sky. You’re so getting laid tonight.

It’s perfect. So perfect. Nothing can go wrong.

“Ahhh… Houston we have a warning light on the Alpha tank. Repeat, warning light on Alpha.”

Then something fairly minor happens. Maybe you stay something not quite funny and it’s taken as not very funny at all. Maybe the service at the restaurant wasn’t quite up to par. Maybe even though The Olive Garden is her favorite restaurant, tonight she doesn’t want to be there for some reason. Maybe the tickets you got aren’t as close to the stage as you could have gotten them. Maybe you’re not parking the car correctly. Maybe you’re just spoiling Date Night by being stupid or insensitive.

Well at this point you’re committed to the evening, so be cool. Nothing you can do about the Alpha tank now. Just ride it out and complete the mission.

Everything goes pretty well, except she’s not really enjoying it as much as you were hoping she would. The mission is a success, you had your fancy dinner, you saw the show, you didn’t get caught staring at another woman. It’s all good. Time to head home and make a smooth landing.

Then you don’t even understand how or why it happens, Date Night just goes terribly wrong on re-entry. Instead of a joyous swooping return to earth, half-way home the First Officer starts screaming at you about something, and the whole thing just blows up.

You ain’t getting laid tonight.

You’re pissed the fuck off about it too.

She broke the unwritten contract that by having a Date Night, and plying her with food, wine, fun and maybe a surprise nice thing, you were going to get laid. How dare she do that and ruin your perfectly planned evening. Why the hell do you have to jump through so many freaking hoops just to get laid BY YOUR WIFE anyway? Good grief she’s a selfish spoiled bitch who should be having sex with you. Right? Right! …right?

Ah… yes and no

Yes - Yes indeed getting laid on Date Night is a reasonable expectation. It’s a special night to connect and have fun together. Having sex is a great way to connect and have fun, and in fact you should have a reasonable expectation that you’ll even have somewhat above average sex that night. After all, more time to relax and ease into it, no kids, a little wine. It should all be good. That’s why you have a Date Night in the first place.

No – She’s just not attracted to you sexually. An evening of special whatever simply isn’t going to make that change in a single evening. She doesn’t want to have sex with you, so she blew it all up in your face. If she was right on the line of being interested in you, Date Night might have earned you getting laid on Date Night, but if she’s below the line if interest in you, the whole evening is just unwanted pressure to screw a guy she doesn’t want to screw.

If you were both single and this date went down, she wouldn’t go back to your place. She’d probably screen your calls out afterwards too. She’s just not interested, but she’s married to you, so she has to go back to your place and find a way to ruin the evening.

So what to do?

You have to address the yes and the no. The yes you address by saying, “I think I have a reasonable expectation of having sex on a Date Night, and I’m not going to go through that sort of evening again. If you’re willing to have sex with me on a Date Night cool, but if not, I’m not interested in having a Date Night.”

The no you address by finding a private place, where no one will find you, and having an episode of just bawling your eyes out. Admitting to yourself that she just doesn’t want to have sex with you, not even with a pretty please and a couple hundred bucks of cherry on top, feels like someone shotgunned you in the chest. I’m serious about the crying, let it out. Cry out the pain, but save the anger… and yes indeed, you will be angry about it all.

Then fix whatever the problem is that’s killing her attraction. Buy the Primer, run the MAP and get your shit together. Get yourself into the position where six months, or a year, or two years from now, she’s the one that wants you and is freaking out about possibly losing you to someone else. Don’t just rage and vent about how it’s unfair and she sucks as a wife. That’s just weakness and weakness is what got you into this mess in the first place. Actually focus your anger to motivate yourself into being not just a better man, but the best man you can be.

Or in short, if the problem is too much weaksauce Jedi, add some Sith. Easy on the Force Choking though. Never ends well.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength.  Through strength, I gain power.  Through power, I gain victory.  Through victory, my chains are broken.  The Force shall free me.       – The Sith Code

 

Comments

  1. Presuming, of course, that she’s worth keeping. Perhaps a better choice would be to simply bail. It’s not as if chasing a chick is worth it, she’s done with you, let it be.

  2. Not that easy when the chick is question is the woman he loves (and he does still love her if he’s going to the trouble of a Date Night), and is the mother of his kids, who he may lose access to in a divorce. Divorce is hell and is to be avoided unless there are no reasonable alternatives left. The MAP is one such alternative.

  3. John Q Galt says:

    Yep, thanks for pointing out that Date Night is an expensive load of crap….

  4. One of the hardest things to learn is when to cut your losses and move on.

    Another VERY hard thing to learn is how to be honest with the “other half”.
    Neither gender is good at reading the mind of the other….some may be
    more perceptive of mood or emotion but neither knows what the other is
    really thinking. This means that the man must make it crystal clear to
    the wife that “date night” = poontang. If she’s too sick, too tired etc. to
    open up the silk purse then she’s too sick and too tired to be taken out of
    the house.

    If the above is unacceptable and Ms Prissypants insists on being wined
    and dined and then being allowed to go superbitch then she is a superbitch.
    And the best place in the world for superbitch is the curb.

    Men need to love their wives less and command them more. If you love
    her so much that you are willing to destroy your own life in a vain attempt
    to make someone happy who cannot be made happy then you are a fool.
    Don’t be the fool. Either she’s misguided and doesn’t understand but is
    willing to listen and learn or she isn’t. Most are not. The few that are willing
    to change must know that change is not an option. The rest need to grow old
    with their cats.

  5. Seduction night!

    I tried date night and it failed. I took her out. We talked about whatever, had some laughs and “connected,” but more like you do with a friend, not a lover. By the time we finished the evening, she was too tired. So being a good beta husband, I “understood” and she went to bed.

    While I agree with Athol for a long term plan (MMSP), I would suggest to take a lesson from skilled gamers – seduce your woman. You don’t do all those things (dinner, show, etc.) to have a good time. Everything you do should be to get her emotions high (buying temperature if you will). You don’t have to do it with flowers, dinner, lots of money, much of it can be done by talk and body language.

    Don’t expect that you can have a casual conversation about the kids, politics, school, the weather, news whatever, and then go home and get laid.

    Instead, escalate her emotions towards sex. When you look into her eyes, think of how much you love her, how pretty she is, and as the night goes on, what you are doing to do to her in bed, explicitly. She will read your non-verbal expressions, which will turn her on without her even knowing it because it enters subconsciously.

    Then, your conversation should hit emotional things, then shift to sensual stuff, then into sexy. Everything should be positive. The talk would go from daily life that is exciting (work, home, activities), to fun stuff to do in the future (like trips), to fantasies (unrealistic vacations), and add in memories of highly emotional times (trips, activities, birth of babies, parties, etc.). Be sure to season your conversation with sensual talk (remember the warm sand, how blue the water was, or remember that hike and me holding you – it felt like we were on top of the world!). Bring out the senses. While for guys, it isn’t a big deal, getting her in touch with the emotional part, especially the sensual one, will pave the way sexual talk. Once you have her in an emotional state (not logical), then you can start bringing in the sexy talk. Remind her of that one time…outside…, or maybe hint that “one of these days, we should.”

    If you are going to put the cash and time down for a “date night,” you should really be planning a seduction night. Your goal is to bring her out of her daily life and live in her emotions for the evening. Don’t talk about problems from work, home, money etc. Drive the conservation toward fun, exciting, hot and sexy things, and get her drawn into her emotions — that’s where she wants to be anyway.

  6. 2manypasswords says:

    Date night from hell was a few years ago, when we had babysitting handed to us on a silver platter so we could go out for our anniversary. No enthusiasm from the wife before, during or after. I kind of regret not retaining a divorce attorney afterwards.

  7. Athol, this is a mini-masterpiece. I can see the hamsters spinning and the heads nodding. You hit it out of the park with this one. Nice work.

  8. Just Sayin' says:

    While I agree that what Athol is saying could be the case with some women, I don’t believe it is necessarily true in all cases. Date night has never worked for getting me all revved up. It’s a great time for bonding with my husband, but honestly by the time we get home it’s late, I’ve had a lot of rich food and probably too much wine and I really just want to flop into bed and fall asleep in his arms.
    On the other hand, he just has to give me that look and start touching and kissing me in the kitchen while we’re having an “ordinary” night and I melt. I would quite happily give up dinner to get him into bed quicker! If it’s soon after he’s spoiled me with date night I like to spoil him back with a few special things he likes!
    So date night really isn’t the way to punch my buttons and this is coming from someone who actually likes having sex with her husband – just sayin’

  9. I’m a fan of Date Night, when done properly (for a detailed breakdown of my own Red Pill Date Night, see my blog. It’s like eight postings long, but I break it down completely). But the situation that Athol describes has happened to me a couple of times, and what he recommends is spot-on.

    The expectation of sex on Date Night is reasonable . . . so when it doesn’t happen, if there isn’t a compelling reason (raging yeast infection, recent death in the family, alien abduction, etc.) then you do have A Problem.

    I just asked Mrs. Ironwood what she would do if, for instance, after last springs Big Red Pill Date she hadn’t felt like putting out — and she made the observation that any wife who didn’t recognize a man’s level of effort and reward it with (bare minimum) a handjob wasn’t much of a wife in her opinion. Of course she’s exceptional, but for those of you fellas who put in the heroic effort and still get shot down for no good reason, the proper response to her is to play it cool. Real cool. I mean, take the temperature down by at least three degrees.

    That doesn’t mean go out of your way to be an asshole to her . . . but it does mean letting her know, in that subtle little way you do, that you are pissed off and will be remembering her intransigence in the future. In my case, the few times that happened early in our relationship I found being icily polite, combined with cutting back on the Beta and the attention, was enough to get across I was displeased with the direction of the relationship. And that’s how I found it best to approach it: it wasn’t that I just wanted sex and she just didn’t feel like giving it to me, it was that I had made an investment in the relationship and she had not given a reciprocal investment. And the lack of investment meant — to me — a lack of commitment.

    It’s been years since that’s been an issue, of course. We’ve long since ironed out the misunderstandings that led to that kind of thing, and it helps that I’m just like totally hot to her, so when we have Date Night sex is assumed to be on the agenda. When it doesn’t happen now, it’s far more likely that there’s a non-relationship-oriented issue, like physical exhaustion, medical problems, or too much to drink. And when it happens, Mrs. I is always enthusiastic about making it up to me as soon as humanly possible. But then she’s come to understand just how important sex is to a man, and just why it’s vital for a fully-functioning marriage.

    Great post, Athol. And love the Sith quotes. You don’t have to join the Dark Side to get laid, but even the most stalwart Jedi needs to understand how to use his lightsaber for “aggressive negotiations” with his wife.

  10. Excellent post Athol. I view Date Night in a lot different way since becoming a red pill man. When you establish yourself as the leader of the house and the leader in the bedroom and your wife sees you in a different light, the Date Night dynamics change. Instead of being a Beta herb orbiting his pedestalized woman, you are once again a man taking his special lady friend out for a nice time, establishing the frame for the evening. E had a great take above in that you move away from the kids/work/chore chit-chat and move on to things you don’t normally discuss: dreams, life goals, how the two of you are changing together, etc. The more you stay away from the run-of-the-mill talk, the more the night takes on an air of passion… but it all starts way before date night. It all starts by being a better man for yourself. Listen to Mr. Kay, he knows things!

  11. My STBX and I did Date Nights every week for most of this year. They mostly worked out really well, and some of the hottest sex we’ve ever had happened after a Date Night, but I had to be very, very careful not to fall into the Nice Guy Covert Contract trap about it. My frame was not that I was “investing” money and effort for the possibility of sex. I was investing money and effort to create a fun time for both of us. Hell, after a long week of work, I need a fun night out on the town as much as she does. None of our Date Nights were all that expensive, and none of them involved gifts for her that weren’t just as much for me, or doing anything that she wanted to do but I didn’t really want to.

    And not all of them led to sex, and I did my damnedest to treat it exactly the same as any other time that I was DTF and she wasn’t: disengage, go do something else (which after a night out and a couple drinks usually meant sleep), play it cool. But none of them involved the sort of “blow up over small imperfections in the evening” shit tests that Athol describes in the OP either. Whatever other faults my STBX has, she was totally on board with using Date Night as a way to try to create attraction, put as much effort as I did into trying to make them succeed, and seemed just as disappointed as I was on those few occasions when the attraction still wasn’t there.

  12. Always glad I’m not married. If I was, however, I would approach my relationship in the same way I do dating:

    1. I only do things I enjoy; if she doesn’t enjoy it, she can find someone else. Because of this, no wasted evening can exist. AT. ALL.
    2. Heartiste: “Always keep two in the kitty.” A married woman isn’t going to play these games with a man who has numerous options outside of her, or else she completely lacks interest in the man (no fear of loss). If it’s the latter case, it’s over anyway.
    3. Neil Strauss: A woman rejects you sexually? Ignore her and start working on a task that improves your value (the MAP from Athol Kay’s book). You haven’t lost at all because as you become more attractive, you may find that your resentment of your partner turns into a pursuit of new women and letting the old one go.

  13. Attraction is such a huge issue here. If she’s not attracted, no amount of steak, seafood, movies, ice cream, or concerts are going to magic her vagina onto your penis.

    Timing date night with her ovulation might be a good way of raising your potential success rate.

  14. WARNING: Cranky, lack of coffee vitriol alert! Tourettes! Woot!

    Ah, Date Night.

    Athol you devil, you managed to capture the essence of modern marriage for a man in one stunning post. You magnificent bastard. I read your book!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJXKVOxqkWM

    This brings back so many fond memories of blue pill days and pining after my ex-wife during the course of our marriage. “Hmm, how many flowers and dinner reservations do I have to churn through to get her to be nice to me?” “Gee, she didn’t even look at them.” “Um, she canceled the dinner plans, WTF?” Lolz. The Lolz I say! Smack forehead at self.

    I don’t think a guy should tolerate not getting sex from his wife barring the usual outs of legit medical reason or some other serious temporary reason beyond her control. (No. Your favorite soap character getting killed off is not a good reason.) The more you do tolerate it, and the longer it goes on, the less likely the situation will change. Why? You probably kept rewarding her with shiny things and treats for doing exactly what you did not want her to be doing behaviorally.

    Sack up and go for broke (hah). Run the MAP and see what happens. In time a decision has to be made. Everyone has to decide to fish or cut bait. In or out. There is an exit cost if it comes to that. There is a pretty huge cost to sticking around a shit situation too. It destroys your soul and spirit.

    Last 15 years been pretty bad for you huh? Have you made a good faith effort to improve yourself and the relationship, and still nothing good happening from her end? Care to take a guess at what your next 30 years with this woman are going to be like? Can you see yourself living like that until they put you in your grave? No? Good.

    Do something about it then. Sometimes doing something means making the tough call and taking the lumps that can come with it. C’mon Captain. Not all command decisions are fun ones.

    Screech – “You mean you would divorce your wife over that?” “Men are PIGS!” “That’s all you want is sex!” Yup. You pretty much nailed it. Let me give you the slight correction: All we want is sex from y.o.u. if we are married to you. Understand the difference?

    I can hire a maid. I can hire a chef. I can hire a nanny. I can hire all kinds of people to do the things I need done and they won’t complain about the work or talk trash to my face. (The lolz!) I could hire an escort if I was so inclined. (Expensive ones too!) What I can’t hire is a woman to love me. (pretty sure on that – like 67.2% – sure. At least not outright spoken to make a deal like that, but maybe…).

    If you are a wife and you can’t sexually out-compete my right hand (sometimes if I’m feeling saucy – my left), what are you bringing to the table for me? What’s that? You love me? Oh. I Forgot. Well shucks sugar pie, why didn’t you say so? Guess I’ll turn in early so I can get back to the office and make the loot to buy you more things! Sorry to have disturbed you during your TV / Alone time. Mmm, hmm.

    Eat it. I don’t care and I don’t want to hear the excuses. If I’m married to you and you’re not screwing me then you are either temporarily ill, you hate me with your va-jay-jay, or you’re fucking someone else. Which is it? Pick one, and your explanation better be really original and entertaining…

    [Public Service Announcement for divorced ladies back out there dating: Your new man’s first wife used up all the excuse cards and tolerances for bad behavior. You have very little margins with a divorced man. You have almost none with a divorced man who has a clue and multiple options. The Lolz. They are rich and deep at times.]

    @E – right on the money there.

    (Hugz, Honk)

    Where’s my F’ing mug?

  15. Two things.

    Date night is an important way to connect with your wife/husband or whatever. Women expect to be taken out, it’s part of Marriage 2.0 (remember it’s forever dating now!).

    That said you should have no attachment to outcome. You simply never know what is going to happen to kill the moment. There will be another.

    My favorite date killing thing is my wife and I have a great date night and everything is going way smooth. We stay out a little too late and on the way home she falls dead asleep in the car! Get home and she is zoned out and no way we are having sex that night. Oh well, maybe I’ll roll her over in the morning and go for it. You never know what is going to happen to kill the mood.

  16. This post is MMSL in a nutshell. It would serve as a good introduction for new readers. It illustrates several Red Pill principles in terms sufficiently clear, and using an example sufficiently familiar, so that Blue Pill types can’t misinterpret them without doing verbal back-flips. Would a wife would behave this way toward a husband she loves and finds sexually attractive? The question answers itself.

  17. One problem is calling it a pre-planned “Date Night” in the first place. Dates are exciting because they’re new experiences with new members of the opposite sex. By announcing “Date Night” ahead of time, you’re naturally comparing your night to the night she had with some good looking stranger (possibly you) 5, 10, 20 years ago, and a pleasant evening to a pleasant restaurant with her pleasant husband just can’t hold up.
    Keep some mystery to the date night — tell her to look nice and be somewhere at a certain time, make sure you schedule a venue change or two, and add a combination of grownup fun (martinis at a piano bar) with something mildly juvenile (pizzeria for dinner, go-carts, etc) for a change. Always arrange for a cab, so that you can both drink properly. Nothing kills a date like having to stay sober so that you can drive the minivan home.
    When you get home, literally carry her to the bedroom. Don’t ask for her to hold up her end of the bargain. (If you do, the fact that you’re bargaining for sex in the first place is probably why you’re in that position in the first place.)

  18. +1 @alphaguy ” you should have no attachment to outcome.”

    You’re married, the date is a occasion to go out and have fun. Date night has as much potential for sex (success/failure) as any other night.

  19. @Matt have you ever heard the saying “If you want to get laid on Saturday, start planning on Wednesday” Women love a plan. They want to know you are up to something. Sometimes you can tell them all the details sometimes it’s better to surprise them, but keep changing it up. This is Marriage 2.0 baby and your wife wants to feel like your girlfriend until the day she dies!

  20. Milf_in_training says:

    “Date Nights” with young kids can have their own problems … one of my first post-baby Date Nights went great, until we got back home to reports that our 2 year old had spent the entire evening screaming and the sitter was at her wit’s end.Husband paid the sitter, and I went right back into Mommy Mode to calm the toddler down. Wave “bye-bye” to Sexy Time.

    Women, especially mothers, can’t be considered sex vending machines. You can’t just put in the money and get sex out. Things can get in the way, once, twice, even 6 times. But is it NEVER works out, and if she NEVER makes up for it (like on the morning after when Baby is asleep), there are problems.

  21. You will have a better sexual experience with ‘Make Up Sex’ after a bitter fight than you will ever have with a planned, contrived and scheduled ‘Date Night’.

    I’m not suggesting guys pick a fight to get laid, but I am suggesting that this is the headspace men need to adopt when it comes to married sex.

    Wives pick those fights when they aren’t getting or can’t ask for rough sex.

  22. If the children have been moved out of the house… have sex before you leave. That way food and drink and sleepiness won’t stop you from having playtime.

    Or, for that matter – you can “help her with her zipper” even if the kids are still milling about. This is why your bedroom door has a lock.

  23. John Q Galt says:

    Christian Player:

    “2. Heartiste: “Always keep two in the kitty.” A married woman isn’t going to play these games with a man who has numerous options outside of her, or else she completely lacks interest in the man (no fear of loss). If it’s the latter case, it’s over anyway.”

    Obviously, you are NOT married. Do all women a favor and don’t get married until you lose the idea that screwing around on your wife is an acceptable response.

    And change the handle, unless it refers to your first name, not your religion.

  24. I am so glad to see this and other post against date night. It never was our thing and we’re still together almost a decade later. Even when hubby and I were just dating, our dates were never really formal unless it was a school dance or something (we’re HS sweethearts). Mainly it was just an excuse to hang out and eventually make out. We’d go window shop at the mall or something (it eased my mom’s mind to know I was doing a specific activity) which eventually went down to hanging at the mall for like 15 min to say we’d been there and then go make out in his car on a back road. The point was to be together and have the possibility of intimacy (in whatever degree- whether kissing or going all the way) not burning through cash (especially as there wasn’t much to be had). Even now with a 2yo, date night is usually with baby in tow (usually in a baby carrier/sling b/c real men wear babies and it gives their wife major gine tingles to see such involved fathering) and it’s much easier to get out to happy hour, share some half price app’s for dinner and then leisurely make our way home if we don’t have to find and pay a sitter. Frankly I find it stupid to spend money on a sitter if there’s no possibility of sex unless toting along a kid is highly unappropriated (which for us has only been rock concerts and we still see kids there). I’d think a night away somewhere would be a better investment than going over to some dumb chain restaurant. Despite lack of sitters, we still have sex just as much if not more than before b/c we fit it in as much as we can. Our pick up line of choice is “the baby’s asleep”. I LOVE NAPTIME! lol:) We can talk about most things around the baby as she’s still so young so we connect a lot too. Oh but should we need “adult time” when the baby is up, Elmo is a great wing man (and for younger babies, those bouncer rocker chairs with hanging toys on a mobile). Basically if you’re not getting laid, it’s NOT due to lack of “date nights” it’s b/c it’s not appealing enough. If you have kids, beta moves will pay off a lot just throw in enough alpha throw down to keep it exciting. Here’s my “date night” yesterday for hubby’s day off- decided to go to mall, picked up house and got baby ready with hubby’s help (major beta bonus points), then went and walked around talking, joking about how adorable baby’s antics are, etc. Came home got baby to sleep, watched our favorite show together then went to bed. No sex b/c we ALREADY had sex earlier that day during baby’s nap:) Could have pulled a double but no pressure. Had sex again this noon during baby’s nap before hubby left for work. If you’re having trouble fitting in time for sex and just general connecting in day to day life, one magical time on the town probably won’t solve it, or at least not permanently. For us, even going grocery shopping together can feel very date-like b/c we can connect and flirt and have fun. Not to say I wouldn’t love to go out dancing more, BUT we dance around the living room all the time. No need to drop cover fees to do so.

  25. Random Angeleno says:

    Date night: a nice concept but it sure brings back painfully bad memories in my experience. Of course that was in my blue pill days.

  26. Hey all

    My first post – Hopefully of many. Firstly Athol’s book has changed my wife and my life completely – THANKS DUDE – YOU ROCK.
    Now regards date night – For my wife and I, date night is a time for us to bond, talk and have conversations that would be imposible to have with kids around. We take a long time at a restaurant, to sit and relax over good food and wine, and honestly there is no time for a show or theatre after, as the meal and conversations will go on all night. When we get home, I have no expectation to have sex (if it does cool, if not – also cool), as the objective of the time we have both spent together is to create a long term environment for a happy relationship which will lead to passionate and steamy sex.
    Quite frankly, after a three course meal and a good few glasses of wine, we really just want to cuddle up and go to sleep. The long term effects of date night is another thing, and frankly, for me, more important.
    Honestly guys – taking your wife out and spending money to have sex with her just doesn’t go down too well with me. She is not a prostitute! It is just that in my view, date night is for bonding. This could be a huge challenge if one of you feels that they have to put out just because you bought them a meal. Quality time is so important.
    I look forward to your thoughts.

  27. John Q Galt says:

    @G_sport:

    Your wife is not a prostitute, but you’re also not a walking wallet. If you’re going out of your way to provide nice experiences for her, and she is not reciprocating (not a quid pro quo…but sometimes she will sex you when you didn’t “earn” it), then you’re a chump. And she is probably getting it somewhere else….ask me how I know.

    It does not sound, by your comment, that the sexing is out of line. Understand that not everyone is lucky (or skilled) like you. For many guys, the whole “Date Night” thing is an excuse for the man to DLV by spending money and effort on a wife who does not respect him.

  28. Just Sayin' says:

    @John Q Galt:
    I sympathize with the guys who are in a situation where they are not getting any. Having swallowed the red pill for wives a while back I now fully realize how important regular sex is for a man on so many levels other than just physical.
    However, I have to be blunt and point out that trying to get your wife to respect you by spending a lot of money on her is kinda self-defeating. She’s thinking, “I’m not into this dude, but if he still wants to spend a fortune on me – hey I’ll take it. What a chump though!”
    You have to command respect from your woman, not demand it. Same with the adoration needed to induce her to want you. You command it by who you are everyday, not by throwing money at her once a week. Maybe you need a new approach?

  29. Hey John Q Galt
    I don’t want to be rude or anything, but perhaps you need to read Athols book again. I am pretty sure that no amount of money is ever going to get your partner to respect you.
    I was in the same boat. I expected sex after using my wallet. It was only after my wife and I got our relationship fixed that she actually opened up to me regards not really being in the mood after eating a huge meal. I understood this, which just increased her respect for me (start of the “un vicious cycle)

    PS – not sure just how skilled or lucky I am, but will take it as a compliment anyway.

  30. OOPS – G_sport!
    Sorry

  31. RedPillNewb says:

    We never do fancy date nights. Some fun activity like shooting, or else just a nice dinner, is all. It’s a way to get away from the kids.

    I want sex from my wife every night, and I get it maybe 1-2 times/wk, so date night is no different from any other.

    I don’t think I’d bother with a huge, fancy, meticulously planned date night. Some ethnic place and a few hours with no children is all.

  32. If date night is the same as any other night when it comes to sex, then why should it be different from any other night in other respects, which is to say, why should it be date night at all?

  33. Just Sayin' says:

    Because date night isn’t just about sex!

  34. If the only reason a man can find for going out and enjoying something fun with his wife is to get sex from her something is wrong. Sex should be happening anyway on a regular basis – it’s something fun you share. But if there is nothing else fun that you share – that is very sad, and probably the reason the wife isn’t wanting sex.

    Date night is about having fun together.

  35. Just Sayin' says:

    @vanessa:
    +1

  36. The flip side is that if date night is a complete disaster and you still get laid like tile then you’re probably doing something right!

  37. “Not just about sex” and “not about sex at all” are two different things. If date night, of all nights, isn’t also sex night as a general rule, then that is a strong sign that something larger is wrong with the marriage that more sexless date nights will probably only make worse.

  38. I don’t see any reason the two need to coincide. If a guy goes to a ball game, or out for pizza and a few beers with a buddy, he doesn’t think the buddy “owes” him anything, they just have a good time together. And think of early dating – if a man approached a strange woman and said, “Hey, I’ll take you to dinner if you promise to put out afterward, cause I don’t like good food or expect to enjoy your company, just your vagina,” she wouldn’t want to go out with him, would she? You just go out and enjoy each other’s company and if it happens, it does. In the same way, a wife is going to be tense and unhappy if she thinks he hates being with her and is only doing it for sex. It’s insulting and a formula for disaster.

    We go out and do stuff together because we are friends and lovers and we like experiencing new things together. Our dates tend to be physically taxing things such as hikes or a bus trip into the city followed by dinner and drinks which leave us both sleepy. We’d both rather have sex when we are alert enough to enjoy it.

  39. FWIW, my STBX almost never initiated in the last few months of our relationship, at first because I was doing the Red Pill thing and taking the job of initiating on myself, and then later because the issues that wound up breaking us up cropped up and we both had other things on our minds.

    Anyway, during those “I was the one initiating” months, we went on a Date Night damn near every week like I said, and usually we had really good sex, and other times we had so-so duty sex, and occasionally we had no sex.

    The BEST sex we had during that time wasn’t on a Date Night at all, though. It was on Poker Night, after she’d spent all night supposedly watching TV but in reality watching me whip the living shit out of my guy friends at that manliest of games. They all went home with their wallets significantly lighter, and she could WAIT to for that door to close so she could jump my bones.

    If I can get that kind of treatment after basically ignoring her all night long, I can’t think of a single reason why Date Night needs to be about jumping through a bunch of hoops so that maybe if I’m a very very good boy she might consent to starfish me.

    Do Date Night if you enjoy Date Night. Don’t do it if you don’t enjoy it. If sex happens after, enjoy the sex. If it doesn’t, try again in the morning.

  40. @Vanessa:

    I can understand your point of view. And I can also understand the viewpoint of some of the men here. If I’m going to cook my husband his favourite meal, rub his back, be super attentive all evening, appear in really slutty lingerie while he’s on the couch, then lie next to him with my head as near to his crotch as I can manage, while purring, goddammit I want to get ploughed. Repeatedly, if possible. So I understand a husband’s disappointment if he does whatever his equivalent is, and he doesn’t get laid. I also get the frustration of wives who find the pressure and presumption off putting.

  41. RedPillNewb says:

    Sex should be happening anyway on a regular basis…

    Well, I don’t know if you’re new here or what, but the major problem most men reading have is that sex is NOT happening regularly and we’re trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying “oh, well, it should be happening” is all well and good but doesn’t mean much if our wives disagree.

  42. I hate date night *because* of the expectation that I’m going to have sex with him…which is hard to do when there’s no attraction at all. I appreciate the dinner, movie, whatever, but knowing that I’m supposed to “repay” him kinda makes me want to puke the entire time.

  43. John Q Galt says:

    @G_Spot and @just Syain – did you even read my comment? I’m saying that date night is a waste of money, and you’re a chump for doing it.

  44. Yep, Date Night is indeed a waste of time and money if sex isn’t already happening at other times. The problem is Date Night is part of the standard Blue Pill advice for husbands who aren’t getting laid, and in that context is virtually guaranteed to fail. For a husband who’s taken and absorbed the Red Pill and is getting laid like tile already, Date Night is unnecessary except as a fun way to spend time with his wife.

  45. If sex isn’t happening – I don’t think date night is the way to fix it. And the pressure of the expectation (along with the implication that he doesn’t enjoy her company) might very well make her LESS interested. Date night is indeed a waste of time and money (and completely beta) if it is an attempt to buy sex. I guess I don’t understand why a man can’t enjoy a nice meal or a movie or whatever with his wife without thinking she owes him something. If you don’t enjoy each other’s company outside of bed, it’s not really surprising that sex isn’t much fun either.

    If you want to go out and do something fun with your wife (for its own sake), by all means go on a date. If you want more sex, run Athol’s MAP. I think that is more likely to work.

  46. RedPillNewb says:

    If sex isn’t happening – I don’t think date night is the way to fix it.

    I agree totally, but this is standard advice from virtually all sources other than MMSL. Hell, it’s standard advice from the wives of the world, along with “doing the dishes,” “giving foot rubs,” and “letting her run everything.”

    The reason men struggle with a sense of entitlement after date night is that women display a sense of entitlement TO date night. “You never take me out anymore.” “You never get me flowers anymore.” Etc. But somehow “You never have sex with me anymore” is horrible and no man should ever say that to his wife.

  47. Question: if the wife is in the emotional state that she does not want to sex her husband, hates the presumption that sex will occur, knows that such a presumption exists, and will not be swayed by date night… why does she go on date night at all?

    It’s bad enough as a single guy when I take a girl out and realize she’s clearly just hoping for free entertainment. Heck, I’ve had steady girlfriends who simply do not understand my aversion to standard “dinner and a movie” dates, which mostly grows out of resentment at spending fifty bucks on a whole lot of nothing (yes, I’ll still go and enjoy myself, but the initial feeling is there). One can only imagine it must be worse, as a guy, to go to that effort with a wife, and worse, as a chick, to feel that much pressure.

    Seriously, if this is how it feels – mutually awful – I don’t understand how anyone can perceive an obligation to try.

    She goes because if she refuses, she’s admitting she’s the one with the problem. If she goes, it’s all able to be blamed on him. She can’t have her husband saying, “She won’t even go out on a date with me.”

  48. I think we’re all pretty much agreeing that date might is a tremendous load of horse shit for all parties involved, for the most part.

    Especially from the standpoint if you think it is the cure for what is wrong in your marriage. But it is the standard Oprah / Dr. (lolz) Phil / Your pastor’s advice to a guy for fixing things up. “We’ll shoot son, you need to take her out for one of them thar date nights!” Yeah. That’ll fix it. Sounds like a lot of us guys found it to be one more inglorious opportunity to be sexually rejected by our wives during blue pill days. Awesome! Lesson learned.

    I don’t think the wife “owes” the husband secs because he took her to dinner. I dont think a husband should have to do anything “extra special” to get “lucky.” Seriously, if you talk in terms of getting lucky with women, that’s just bad thinking and bad frame for starters, but if you have to think of getting sex with your wife in terms of “getting lucky”, that’s sad. Like truly a sad state of things and to be a bit contrarian to everyone else, I don’t place all the blame for that sad state of things solely on the man.

    You think men are acting entitled when they expect sex from their wives? Really? Maybe, but many women seem to feel entitled to using his paycheck to pay for food, clothes, homes, kid things, trips, presents, flowers, dinners, new couches, drapes, repainting the upstairs bath for the third time, nights out with the girls, Mary Kay products. They are also not shy about dangling the prospect of sex out in front of that starving man if he will just do or buy this thing she wants. Don’t act so morally above it all. We all play our games and we all look to cut deals and trade what we have for what we want. It’s business. (I know. Not you. You’re independent and don’t need no man. Can’t be bought at any price. You’re a Saint.)

    Listen, you should be having secs because, you know, you’re married to each other and if you’re keeping your vows and not diddling someone else on the side, you are each others only sexual outlet aside from jerking it and vibrators. Seems like at least once a week you could go the extra mile and fuck each other. If not, just cut the crap, quit the martyr act, quit telling us how contemplating having sex with your husband makes you want to puke and either fix it together (that means you actively participate) or just get the frigging divorce already.

    If you don’t want him, set him free, someone else will want him. Guaranteed. You may find once he’s gone you realize you did want him after all. Oops. Oh well. There’s is always a hunky secret millionaire handyman around the next corner I suppose.

    If this is the age of the strong and independent “don’t need a man until I do” woman, get divorced, ask for $0.00 dollars and go on your own way. Money, meet mouth. No? Why not? What’s that you say? He owes you? Hehe. You mean to say there is a cash value for your time, services and sex during the marriage? So while married none of that stuff can be purchased at any price but at the divorce it suddenly has a quantifiable cash value you expect payment for? Entitled are you? Oh my aching hamster.

    Yeah I know. You’re not attracted to him and not haaappy and it’s definitely, 100%, all his fault. Woman up and do your share to correct it, or don’t. Hey if it helps, do it “For the Children!”

    The Lolz!!!

  49. @Eoin MacAodh

    I *do* actually refuse date night when he suggests it…because yes, I know it’s not going to change my mind. It’s easy enough with kids, work, etc to have something going on that it becomes “too hard to fit in the schedule” anyway, so the excuse is already there.

  50. @John Q Galt

    Yes John I did read your response, but after seeing Vanessa’s reply, would have thought you would have got the idea, that date night should not be a tool to get layed. Not sure why the men (generalising) in this chat are not getting what the ladies are saying.
    Take them out on date night to enjoy their company (this is presuming that all is well, and that sex is happening regularly). If sex happens great, if not, maybe in the morning. If things were not going to well between my wife and I, (long term with no sex), going on a date night WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM!!!

    Got it?

  51. Joe_Commenter says:

    I’m not a fan of date night. The Mrs. and I do our bonding and talking, planning and dreaming while we go for walks together. We celebrate w/ a nite out once in a while. But the nite out is never connected to sex. We take care of the sex before we go out.

    ZLX1 has just nailed the correct attitude. If your spouse is not fucking you, and you are working the MAP, then the spouse is simply not into you and not worth it. We are all in favor of saving the marriage. But if your date nites are going as badly as above, just get out. You deserve better. Good marriages are often wonderful, even joyful things. You can have the good things in life. Often times all you have to do is ask for it and demand it for yourself. Demand that people treat you with respect. Once you believe that you deserve respect, you will be amazed at how your spouse and everyone else starts to treat you better.

  52. Just Sayin' says:

    Geez guys and gals.
    Reading these comments has really become quite depressing! I can’t believe there are so many people (guys and gals) out there with such a sense of entitlement. What happened to marriage being a partnership? What happened to being in it for the long haul and sharing the ups and downs? Neither of you should be resenting the other. Giving sex should not be a pay off for getting his paycheck. In the same way, handing over your paycheck should not be a pay off for her giving you sex. It’s insane. Little children bicker like this. He did that so I’m going to do this. She didn’t do this so I’m not going to do that. Adults talk about the issues between them and come to a mutual understanding. What you guys are talking about here just makes marriage seem like a terribly bad idea.

    I know most of the people here are here because of an unsatisfying sex life. And I definitely believe that the MAP can go a long way towards improving it, but only if you have the underlying intimacy of a loving relationship to build on. Otherwise you’re just glossing over the real problem. If there is no trust, no intimacy, no foundation of mutual respect, the MAP is really only going to work when her hormones are raging for a couple days a month. The other days when she’s thinking with her head, she’s still going to be wondering how she ended up in a relationship with someone who doesn’t seem to love her.

    And for the women reading who think they are entitled to just spend, spend, spend without a thought as to how much effort your husband is going through to make the money he brings home – shame on you. The money that comes home belongs to the whole family and should be spent jointly, by mutual agreement for the benefit of the whole family. I just can’t understand any other attitude. No wonder the men on here are so pissed off!

    Maybe I’m just naive, but I have been married 22 years to a wonderful, but far from perfect man who I love with my whole heart (otherwise I wouldn’t have married him – duh!) The MAP has helped us to identify and improve several areas of our marriage and I am thankful to Athol for that every day. But what some of you guys are talking about doesn’t even sound like a marriage. I’m not sure if a lack of sex is your biggest problem, and if it is, you can be sure it’s only the symptom of a whole lot of more baseline stuff that needs to be addressed.

  53. flirtyintrovert says:

    What I’m about to say does not apply to those who have trouble getting sex from their wives IN GENERAL. It applies only to guys who are frustrated about Date Night specifically.

    Athol says that sex is a reasonable expectation on Date Night. I’m not so sure. I’m not married (yet – waiting for April!), but from the articles I’ve read, Date Night is usually sold as a chance to get away from the kids for grownup conversation/dining somewhere without a ball pit/a fun spontaneous activity. At the end of the night, you pay the sitter and go to bed. Sex may or may not happen, depending on whether the kids are already asleep.

    Instead of getting frustrated when spending a bunch of money at a nice restaurant “fails” and your wife just goes into a food coma when you get home, why not try…. spending LESS money and effort? Your wife might be more likely to have sex with you if you just stay in and watch a movie with her in bed (and set a bottle of cheap white wine on the nightstand, lol).

  54. flirtyintrovert says:

    All I’m trying to say is:

    1. Athol’s right that Date Night is not going to heat up your frigid wife. It’s a lame fix if you have a serious problem, and it gets old when columnists and pastors trot it out as some magic bullet.

    2. Athol’s wrong if he means that your wife not having sex after a fancy evening ALWAYS means that she’s Just Not Into You, and that you should cry in the bathroom. Women are not actually mind readers. We’re not always on the same page with you.

  55. I can understand how expecting sex on date night might create a weird pressure to have sex that ends up killing the “mood.” However, what do you do when the wife is the one creating the pressure? As background, married for 10 years, two kids under 5 and I’m trying like hell to extricate my marriage from a downward spiral of beta and resentment. My mother takes the kids overnight two nights a week almost every week. So we have date night at least once a week. It will be no surprise that even with this ideal situation sex continues to be less frequent and more obligatory. I’ve got the book, and I’m running the map. Even when the wife is ovulating, she refuses to have sex other than on date night. Of course, what happens is she puts off sex all week until date night, but then something happens. She is too tired, she doesn’t feel well, the kids get sick and have to stay. You get the point. I bump back, I pull the moves, and I try to have adult conversations about why I’m frustrated and unhappy. Invariably i am dismissed as a rediculous, hormone driven pervert. I’m trying hard to stay positive, run the map, and save my marriage, but she is a stubborn bitch and fights me every step of the way. I have started leaning toward an exit strategy much sooner than I know is recommended simply because I feel stuck in a hopeless situation. Any thoughts?

  56. I want to go on date night with “E”

  57. But maybe Im ovulating…

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