Young Guy Game vs Old Guy Game

As you get older, you change. In some ways for the better, in some ways for the worse. Typically it’s a physical decline vs. a mental and resources gain.

I actually look back at myself in an odd sort of awe. How did I not know I was as good looking as I was? Oh I wasn’t like crazy hot guy, but certainly far better than I thought I was. How was I not simply asking girls out frequently? Holy crap that would have been so easy to have gotten not just a few more dates, but a ton of dates and all that could have come with that. Once you learn Game you’re always going to look back into the past and realize how often you missed an opportunity with a girl. Maybe not just any girl either… you totally messed up with the girl. The one you really wanted.

You realize you could’ve. You realize you should’ve.

But that’s all gone and here you are now. Older. Slower. It’s not as easy as it was. Everything comes with extra little price in pain or energy compared to how it was twenty years ago. What you have though, is a lot more experience, skill and stuff piled up. Young guys have potential for future power, that’s what attracts women to them, older guys are judged on whether or not they actually achieved power. Whether or not that’s personal power, social power, physical power, financial power or whatever power doesn’t matter. It’s potential power vs actual power. That’s why as an older guy writing about Game I’ve increasingly started talking about structural attraction issues, rather than how to order drinks in the bar so girls think you’re the hot catch of the evening.

Older guys don’t have any time to create the impression of power, we actually have to have it. That’s why younger guys can turn their dating life around as fast as it takes to hit the gym for a couple months and buy some proper clothes, and older guys can have a 1-2 year program of development ahead of them. Got to fix the structural stuff. I have readers who have made deeply serious goals like doubling their income inside two years, or getting an advanced degree in their forties, or losing 100 pounds. Big heavy projects that just have to get done for the success they want. Not to mention stalled marriages and kids to consider.

The good news is that actual power, is more attractive than the potential for power, because not all potential is reached. That’s why a woman in her twenties can find a guy in his forties attractive. But he’ll always have some degree of actual power and have kept his physical decline under good control.

The fantasy match up is young you vs. you now.

So let’s say me at age 24 facing off against me at age 42 for Jennifer at age 22. Imagining that we’re both meeting Jennifer for the first time at those ages. How would it play out?

Well I think some of the early play would have gone to #24. Better looking, funny, smart and I would have made a move on her… a very respectful move though. #24 would have asked her out on dates, though to be honest, some quite modest dates in a crappy car for transportation. He’d try and get her back to his itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie apartment… and prove what a nice respectful guy he was. He’d make some real progress, but minus all that nutty long distance stuff creating an Alpha illusion, I just don’t know how fast things would have gone.

#42 though would have a whole different level of play. At first he wouldn’t even be interested in Jennifer… too young to be bothered with, but ultimately she’s going to start showing her positive values and she is kinda cute. So #42 makes a move… he calls her up and tells her he’s taking her out to dinner, doesn’t say it’s a date or ask for one, just say’s he’s taking her out… and she just complies. Then it’s a proper car to a proper restaurant, hand on her lower back guiding her into her seat. It’s that same funny, smart guy, but with some greater range and some wisdom. #42 lays his hand down on the table palm up and she puts her hand in his as they talk and the wine bottle gets emptier and emptier.

The transition is back to #42’s place… an actual house, not an amazingly amazing house, but definitely a house with a backyard, near a brand new K-8 school and extra rooms for imagined children. His move is somewhat more assertive on her. A slow but firm pull into him and deep passionate kissing and an escalation to a hand on her breast. Once it gets to trying to remove pieces of clothing though, she tenses up. “I would like you to stay.” Stay. The most perfect word to use. It implies sex, but doesn’t explicitly state it. “But if you aren’t ready yet, we can take you home and continue this another night.” #42 gets up to go to the bathroom, “I’ll be right back.” Time for her to think, to not feel pressured to stay, time to change her mind. Five minutes later he’s back and she still asks to go home, “Good for you.” says #42. As he drops her off he says, “I’ll never make you do anything you don’t want, but when you want it, I’ll make sure you like it.”

The next morning #42 texts her, “I know what you did when I dropped you off last night.” “Oh? What’s that?” “You masturbated thinking about what would have happened if you stayed the night with me.” “OMG how did you know?” “LOL your secrets are safe with me.” “You”re a bad, bad man.” “You’re welcome.  :-)

About this time #24 and #42 discover the other is interested in Jennifer. There’s not a fist fight or anything stupid, just an awkward meeting where #42 stares #24 down and into stepping out of the way as they pass in the hall.

Time passes. #24 ups the ante with flowers, poetry and a few too many calls and texts about his interest in her. #42 texts her, “Wanna go to DisneyWorld this weekend?” “That’s in Florida, I can’t afford that.” “I’ve got enough frequent flyer miles for two tickets.” “Let me think.” “You know you wanna.” “Um… rooms?” “Room.” “This is kinda quick” “I know what I like.” “What happens after that?” “That’s up to you.”

Three hours of radio silence later…

“I’m still thinking.”

“Tickets are booked, I’m going to go have fun either way. Flight is 650pm on Friday.”

#24 asks her out again for a Saturday date. Sunday? Friday? “What are you doing all weekend?” “I might be going on a short vacation trip with a friend.” “It’s him isn’t it.”

After that comes a line of intense questioning along the lines of what-exactly-are-you-thinking and what-has-this-guy-really-offered-you. But there’s this genuine tone of concern in there, not just about what he’s going to be losing if she goes, but that she’s truly understanding what she’s getting into and whether she’s going to be okay. It’s actually quite touching. He really cares. He’s protective.

“So what are you offering then?”

Could’ve, should’ve….

“Marriage.”  One word. The big one. Spoken with clarity and conviction. An amazing weekend and possibly more, or the whole package of potential?

So who wins?

Jennifer: LOL you’re an ass making me do this! For the record I’ve NEVER dated two people at once. This is a question I’ve never thought about. In reality, 22-year-old me would have been far too intimidated by 42-year-old you, just on principle. Both “guys” have their advantages, but you’re right that the 42-year-old shows what he’s capable of more than the 24-year-old, just by virtue of life experience and accumulated working years leading to more “stuff”. And really, when you’re 22, 42 seems ancient lol.

Athol:  Somehow I feel rejected lol.

 Jennifer: Well that depends on whether or not you take me to Disney :-)

Athol: LMAO

Jennifer:  /faux-pouts

Comments

  1. Wow, your timing is impeccable. I’m 40, in college to pursue 1 life long dream, own a house (though it is a fixer upper) and 90% of the women I meet are in their early to mid 20’s. I usually have good early success but then….crash and burn. Seeing you spell it out shined a light on things. At some point, I over think things and end up trying to play #24’s game instead of my own. Thanks.

  2. “Young guys have potential for future power, that’s what attracts women to them, older guys are judged on whether or not they actually achieved power. Whether or not that’s personal power, social power, physical power, financial power or whatever power doesn’t matter. It’s potential power vs actual power. ”

    The guys I see who really make a huge gain in terms of how good looking a woman they can get compared to how they look themselves because of what they have achieved are mostly guys that are REALLY loaded with cash. They`re not a doctor making 200 000, they are business men with a big fortune. Those guys seem amongst the few that get a gain of 3-4 points (often but far from always though, some don`t date women much more attractive). Because the sphere has made me a SMV nerd I`ve been looking intently at what people I meet and people in the press get and I`ve even googled some people to see their girlfriends/wives. Guys who have a good but more normal career such as a doctor or lawyer seem to get a boost of a point maybe one and a half. Artists and writers sometimes get a really big boost such as 3 or so but only if they`ve put it to use by hanging out a lot in artist party scenes etc. The average successful writer or artist does not date super hotties. I live in a small country so the power of politicians and celebrities is much smaller than in the US. The politicians seems to make only marginal gains (how is this in the US?). THere is one very powerful male politician that has made huge gains. Most don`t at all. I think many of them are political nerds that grew up in their parties youth organizations and have bad game. I certainly don`t want to date their wives. Because the country is smaller, successful musicians aren`t like prince or Eminem. THey rarely get really wealthy, only a select few do. Many of the guys even with only moderate success seem to get quite good gains such as 2 points while some with huge success and charisma get tons like in 5 or 6 points, ugly guy with model. The athletes, not so much unless professional football career ABROAD. Huge salaries in famous foreign football leagues gives very big gains for a few but some with little looks and crappy gains still don`t get much. Generally various celebrity guys seem to get a good bonus but still not spectacular, it really seems the size of the place you are a celebrity in matters a huge deal. An ugly, very successful actor and director that has made a lot of money and is very charming got a gain of 5-6 points but besides him it seems that unless the celeb has very good game himself it only gives you a point or two (celeb does not mean serious money at all her, for a rare few it does but for most it varies from upper middle class to poor depending on why you are famous). A DJ that is well known amongst people who care about DJs but not amongst anyone else dated a famous, smoking hot playboy model for 5 years and he is about a 5, that has to have been about game because she could have had her pick of anyone. In general it seems to me that it is often those with a high position in a subculture of some kind that often get big gains. The intellectuals, artists and writers that stay at home don`t get much but some of those who hang out a lot in the aright places and are social butterflies do. Some DJs, club owner, music promoters, guys in the record business that go out a lot, musicians that are highly social often get very good gains as in 2-3 or more. I suspect those guys often have quite a bit of game too but it appears critical that they are in a subculture where they have a position that is strongly perceived by a reference group the woman is a part of. A guy with a highly successful career in some business can also get very good gains if he finds a girl connected to that world but only good gains if she is not known with it.

    So to me it seems that unless you hit one of the few big jack pots such as really rich, the right kind of celeb athlete, right kind of famous musician etc. your not normally getting more than two points from the success alone. You need to become socially powerful because of it and pick a woman who really values that social power because she is part of the scene or wants to be in order to fully realize the potential of a career. Very good but normal careers such as doctor, lawyer or a good climb on the corporate ladder adds a point to a point and a half sometimes two but not more.

    The somewhat older guys that I most frequently see with really hot women are for the most part very good looking themselves or have great game/great personalities. To me it seems that if the guy does not have a good career and money in order the hot women get grumpy and you loose big points but if the basics of that is on order it is still looks and game that determines most of the SMV. I have a lot of very good looking and very alpha friends and they are mostly working themselves into upper middle class and sometimes middle class lives. They have girlfriends that are equally hot as the richest business men and the guys who really hit the jack pot with an exceptional career etc. Looks wise you can gain a good chunk in the gym. Clothes in my opinion can mean a whole point. The difference between dressing like your average guy with almost anti style to dressing with really great style is HUGE. Beyond those esthetics are hard to do something with except surgery. That leaves game, personal development and other stuff such as hobbies, other life missions and great social life and subcultural prestige. Over the course of some years gains in game can be enormous if coupled with really deep inner game work such as meditation, deep psychological work, serious martial arts practice, large testosterone increases, thorough posture work, physical flexibility, sensuality training, voice work, deep masculinity work (warrior, king, magician, lover workshops for example) etc. For me personally, I´m headed towards a solid career gain of the doctor/lawyer type of 1,5 or so but find investing more to gain even more in that arena would be ineffective compared to game and the deeper work I mentioned that supports long term. I think as long as a solid career and solid money is in place the personal development is where it`s at, but it should be deep work.

    Related to the point about deeper personal development I am curious what you think about personal power that you mentioned Athol. I`m not sure what you mean by it. IMO there are men who over time develop themselves into very powerful charismatic people with real depth and that is still attractive no matter how old you are even at the age where it “should” have materialized into another form of achievement. That sort of personality (which has an alpha/game overlap) gets respect from those who have achieved more formally IMO because they sense the personal power.

  3. In my experience #24 got laid. #42 gets called creepy by all of his peers and after dealing with all the stigmas and petty jealousy still gets laid. Oh, to be 24 again and not have to deal with all these “old” people’s insecurities with my choice to flirt with younger companions.

  4. Andromanche says:

    So…speaking as a 21-year-old woman, I’d have to say that I wouldn’t go with 42-year-old Athol because, well, he’s twice my age. “Half your age plus seven” rule and all that. The last time I met a guy that was significantly older than me (and really clicked), I did the math and just couldn’t stop myself from wondering why he wasn’t dating a nice girl in the non-creepy zone. And then everything he did was analyzed from the viewpoint of “maybe he’s just too immature to hold down a relationship with someone his own age.” And…well…you can guess what happened then. Nothing.

    (Not that 42-year-old Athol doesn’t have mad sexeh moves. I just bet that >28-year-old Jennifer is a lot more comfortable with them than 22-year-old Jennifer would have been.)

  5. In truth, if I was back on the dating market tomorrow, I don’t think I would be bothered with 22-year-olds over much, beyond using them as preselection pawns to impress women in their late 20s and very early 30s.

    Personal power – that’s whatever you’re particularly good at / inner game / skill

  6. whatmeworry says:

    Be honest. Most urban/suburban early 20yo girls are still on the carousel, euphemistically ‘having fun’.
    My late 20’s game was hardly tight, but hardly reserved when it came to making ‘the move’. That said, I’m pretty damn sure I missed what would have been a slam dunk ONS or FWB or two (or four or five) with early 20 somethings that I would have considered realistic long term prospects by not hard closing early. In retrospect, a pump and dump would have been a slam dunk.
    The old Woody Allen joke comes to mind….”I’d never want to join a club that would have me as a member'”

    Why reward a late 20 something the brass ring? The wall is that much closer.

  7. i like this one since it kind of resonates with me. i’m 38, but i look 26-28. i get 22 yo’s flirting with me all the time. i’m at a point where i’m not really looking for a woman that age, but that’s the age range of most of the women expressing interest. i think the major difference between older guy game and younger guy game is simple-

    walkers and senior citizen discounts. wokka wokka.

    most of the girls i flirt with are never put off by my age. it’s weird, but it is what it is.

  8. MadMav, most of the blowback I’ve encountered has come from single women my age or older or with LSMV, and unhappily married folks of both sexes. The men are jealous and the women are angry that I’m not interested in them.

    dannyfrom504, that’s been my experience too. 80-90% of girls 21-28 don’t care about my age at all. I rarely even have them ask about it. The grey in my hair certainly gives them a hint but…

    Andromanche, I’ve had classmates sitting next to me, telling me how they could never go out with a guy 10 years older than themselves because its “creepy” or he’s “immature”. Yet, I’m 15-20 years older and we’ve dated, sometimes they were even the one to ask me out. I usually just stare at them silently and wait for the inevitable “You’re different. You’re (funny, witty, charming, “drawing”, centered, grounded, etc).” It always happens. To quote that other guy, attraction isn’t a choice.

    One thing to remember, just because she’s young and has perky boobs doesn’t mean I’ll even talk to her unless I have to. She has to provide something to my life beyond a nice view or she’s not even a consideration.

  9. Well, this is a topic I have great interest in, being in my late 50’s and single again after 20 years, but the age range here pushes the envelope in terms of perception. One of equal difference , say her 30, him 50 would strangely enough not cause near as much head shaking.

    I more or less fit your scenario when I got married, the age range was not as extreme, but with an almost 12 year difference between my X and I ( her 23, me 34) it was seen as pushing it at the time. My attraction to her was much as you mention, I had my own business, vintage sports cars, had pre-approval via my social set and I was smooth and comfortable with the ladies. Compared to the guys she had been out with who were still living at home or were living in a version of Athol’s dinky apartment, maybe with room mates, the older guy with a lifestyle one could walk right into would seem very attractive.

    Sadly many of us older guys that formerly had the attractive lifestyle and the Alpha become such wimps to the women we love and the families we cared about, end up divorced and back in Athol’s dinky apartment. We have to start from scratch. The older guy “Game” demands almost a complete rebuild of your lifestyle in order to participate, and in some cases is going to take a couple of years.

    As Wudang has mentioned , you it necessary to almost become some kind of modern Zen Warrior//Renaissance Man in order to get one’s foot in the door with anyone much younger. One has to hit hit gym, meditate/martial Arts, do yoga and become highly visible in your local Arts & entertainment community to generate a high enough profile that you at least appear to be a much better than average catch.

    One should really only do all this self improvement for their own well being/Karma and no other reason. Why? because sadly it’s been the experience between myself and other “50’s” guys I know, few women are worthy of it. The women us 50’s guys tend to meet ( in their 40’s) are someone else’s newly tattooed “Eat, Prey on Love” X-wife and should be avoided at all costs , unless all you are looking for is a short term fling.

  10. Andromanche says:

    @DaveD: Attraction may not be a choice, but what you do with it is. As I’m sure you know, the brain has to come on sooner or later–or you will really screw your life up. The older guy I mentioned before? Checked a LOT of my boxes, and some of those are not easily checked. I was QUITE attracted. Ultimately, though, the niggling doubts I began to have–due to his age–caused me to put a nix on any budding relationship. And I think that Athol’s and Danny’s comments (at least kinda-sorta) back me up (a little)–they (reasonable approximations of the intelligent 30-40 year old male that knows what the h*ll he’s doing in life) wouldn’t hit that, so why would he?

    Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence. Maybe I’m just not a reasonable approximation of 21-year-old women. Or maybe I am–I might have been convinced but, reviewed logically, his behavior was less than convincing. Maybe you’ve been responding perfectly to the sh*t tests they’ve been throwing at you, so they decided they just must be special snowflakes that were just /that/ beautiful, intelligent, and mature.

  11. So I’m a bit confused, are you going back in time or is younger Jennifer coming forward with younger Athol in hot pursuit?
    There are so many questions here, I mean when did Jennifer get her first cell phone?
    Just askin’

    The great thing about fantasy match ups is that they are fantasy. I mean I don’t even know how I got to America in this post.

  12. Here’s hope for the older dudes: a significant number of young women have a strong attraction to older men. Perhaps it’s latent (or blatant) daddy issues, but if you’re not getting the attention you want right now, change your venue, up your Game, run the MAP, and keep pushing forward. Eventually the girls who are enthralled with older men (and I could name half a dozen pornstars who’ve copped to that particular fetish) will display themselves.

    As far as locations for considering, try college-type hangouts and such– don’t go to a mid-day Zumba class and expect to meet anyone under 40. Also, as some have noted, 22 year olds of any stripe are still bathed in teh flaky; I recommend going slighty higher, to the mid-20-s range. Look for women who are in their senior+ year of undergraduate and are “tired of dating boys”; your staid maturity and calm, stable manner are like catnip after 4+ years of tumultuous undergraduate realtionships. In addition, the real party girls are still fooling themselves into thinking their still 21 and not 24, and are riding the carousel, while the more future-mother-of-my-children type are starting to really think about things like their reproductive future.

    There are no guarantees, of course, but you play the odds and you hone your game until you are in the right place at the right time. But not all younger women think of older dudes as “creepy” — some are extremely attracted to the security.

  13. You’d think 40-year-old Asian guys would be cleaning up with white college girls. I wonder why not.

  14. I say that because a 40-year-old Asian guy looks 30, but has 15 years in the working world.

  15. Older men who go for younger women are not necessarily immature. It is natural for a man to feel attracted to a woman’s beauty, and a lot of older single women seem to have bad attitudes, make too many demands, and are unpleasant to be around.

    Why do people have such hang-ups about this? It usually says more about them than it does about the older man/younger woman in question. 10-15 years is not really that much. Our unnatural age segregation beginning in kindergarten likely has something to do with these attitudes, along with paranoia about ‘paedophilia’ (even though a 21 year-old is an adult, not a child).

    21 year-old me would have gone for 42 year-old Athol in a heartbeat (although I’d have found the Disney trip corny and over the top). I find it amusing that the men’s stories here contradict what women say about themselves. As always, watch what we do, not what we say.

    I was playing to my audience. Jennifer loooooooves Disney lol.

  16. Heartiste wrote abut this a week or so ago. Since I am single, 51 and not particularly attracted to most 50 year old women this is of real interest to me.
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/older-man-game-direct-or-indirect/

  17. Men if you take care of yourself and keep in shape….you can look 10 years younger anyway. We don’t age in dog years after 30 like women do (I keed!).

  18. Interesting, being 49 myself. The big problem is that a 20-something man can improve his SMV in a few months. In your late 40’s, it’s years of work. Much harder.

  19. I was playing to my audience. Jennifer loooooooves Disney lol.

    LOL In that case it would have been a great play. If it was me, you’d have said “let’s go eat fish and chips out of newspaper on a park bench!” ;)

  20. @Andromanche, I agree wholeheartedly with you about the difference between attraction and action. Its one of my major beefs with the Game community: that just because a woman may feel attracted to a man, she MUST sleep with him or if a man can attract a woman he MUST sleep with her. We do have a little control.

    “Maybe you’ve been responding perfectly to the sh*t tests they’ve been throwing at you, so they decided they just must be special snowflakes that were just /that/ beautiful, intelligent, and mature.”

    No, not really, I screw up a lot of tests because I simply don’t care. That seems to play to my favor with some girls; its aloof or something. However, they don’t have to decide they’re special snowflakes. I screen the girls I consider going out with pretty harshly. I TELL them when they stand out. I wouldn’t be hitting on them/asking them out if they weren’t.

  21. This is a good post, so I’ll apologise in advance for being nitpicky. However, I hope that kissing/making out on a *first* date is not automatically taken as consent for a hand on the breast. I don’t know how things are in pop culture, nowadays, but I’ve always thought it was polite to ask first for that kind of escalation. There are many many ways to show that you are a strong dominant male that don’t run that kind of emotional risk for the female. Obviously, with somebody you’re in an established relationship with, you would probably know what is welcome. But on a first date, you’re still acquaintances. Don’t assume consent. Always ask.

    Athol, to be clear, I’m not say that, if you were single, you would make a physical move on a woman without establishing consent. But your wording was ambiguous, and I felt the need to poin that out for the sake of the men reading your post.

  22. @Kryssie – I’m all in favor of consent, but I’m also fairly clearly the sort of guy that’s heading for second base at a minimum if we’ve downed a bottle of wine and gone back to my place. If she doesn’t want something I’ll stop. But constantly asking “mother may I?” kills the mood completely.

  23. Kathrynthegreat says:

    I gotta agree with Athol on this one. A guy who makes out by playing “mother may I” is a massive turnoff. I have no qualms about speaking up if things are going to far or too fast. And of course any man worth his fault knows that no always means no. But if we’re interested in each other and we’ve come back to your place or mine, consent is implied until it is revoked. “May I remove your shirt? May I touch your breast? May I unbutton this button?” Is incredibly beta and a huge turnoff.

  24. Well, I guess I differ from you there because I think asking for consent can be sexy. And it can be done in a sexy, dominant, romantic way. For example, look straight into her eyes and say “I want to feel the soft swell of your breast cupped in my hand.” Say it with confidence. Her reaction will tell you how she feels. It is reasonable for a woman to be taken by surprise if she thinks she’s just kissing and it turns into a sexual touch. And that kind of surprise can be traumatic.

    There are risks and benefits in any decision making process. If the potential negative consequences are bad enough, then even if the chance of them happening are low, they should be mitigated.

  25. Off The Grid says:

    I was a “gentleman” when I was really young, it got me nowhere with women. When I started touching them in ways that I considered to be inappropriate in my mind based on my up bringing… Ie hips, butt, eventually placing my hands on her breasts while making out or dancing…. Women seemed way more into me. I had more women get up set with me for giving them hugs and walked them to their doors then I ever did making out with them and feeling them up in “inappropriate” ways.

  26. How a man uses Game to appeal to women shouldn’t matter if that man has maximized his SMV. A 24 year old with no debt, an income that exceeds spending, a comfortable home and car and who has kept himself in top physical shape has already raised himself above the status quo of others his age. A 42 year old man should be significantly further along but that’s offset by social pressure on “dating your dad” that lowers SMV.

    A man who is stable and keeps himself focused/busy doesn’t need to be concerned with one particular woman and whether or not she will be interested in him. The less he cares about one new woman (one-itis) the more he can focus on building options for his choosing (spinning plates) until one woman rises to the top through proving her value.

    Men age like wine, women age like milk. Stop worrying about a new woman, she likely only has a few years before she hits The Wall (based on general likelihood). Spin many plates and keep doing it under one woman proves her value to you is superior to the throw-always.

  27. Kryssie, even if you respond to ‘Mother May I’ game, most women won’t. Also, even if no words are exchanged during a make-out session, consent is still sought and then granted or withheld. The way for a girl to give or withhold consent without words to, say, a guy’s hand on her breast is to move and act so as to make it easier or harder respectively for him to have his hand there. The action can be obvious – pulling his hand on or pushing it off – or it can be more subtle. There is a dance, a push-and-pull, to any make-out session worth a damn. The main point is, a guy can get permission for what he’s doing without words easily enough; if he uses words to ask permission, he will probably kill her tingle.

  28. Off the Grid- I agree. I was a “nice” guy for the first 48 years of my life. All it got me was under employed and divorced twice. As Alice Cooper sang “No more Mr nice guy”!

  29. I was soooo lame when I was in my 20s and missed so many excellent opportunities because I was such a nice guy. I was in the Athol camp I had no idea how attractive I was and I can count many times women almost threw themselves on me (I was successful and had a car and house on my own by 30) but I was too blind to see it. I sure I had a time machine. I would go back and have a little talk with myself!

  30. gardenoflove says:

    Men in the older age range do go for women within their age range,too. Perhaps it is for the same reason a more mature man can be appreciated by any woman. The older woman has preserved herself within what is possible for her age. She may have developed a whole range of skills and interests that are also interesting to the man and can be appreciated by him. She is more relaxed with her sexuality and his. If she has eschewed bitterness she has the opposite reaction of noticing a more mature man’s skills, abilities and outlook. She would find his overall growth interesting to hear about. If she has had hardships in life or with a man previously, a man with the Alpha/Beta mix may stir great happiness and thankfulness in her. They also may be at the same stage of life making it more enjoyable to do things together in activities and sexuality. There are duds and gems in any age range among men and women.
    Though I am giving this thought on older men and women , I myself have married and dated men younger than myself. My first husband God rest his soul,was five years younger and my second ,11 years younger.
    Keep in mind these younger women may hope for children which may or may not fit with an older man’s plans. Recent research showed the surprising result that the age of the father at conception can result in a higher risk of a child with autism. A young woman may opt for the slightly immature man closer to her age. These men do grow up and the process of being a part of that can be interesting too. The oldr man cannot expect the younger woman to always act and look like she is in her twenties and he himself will age faster than her. this is sometimes where these come unglued later on.

  31. This is a very interesting subject. What should a game aware single man 40+ realistically expect from the smv? With tight game it might be possible to bang mid and low 20 something girls. But for an LTR? I doubt it. Not Anlgo-American women anyway. Andramache’s view is probably the dominant one.

    But this raises a question I always wrestle with. How should a 27+ woman who has been riding the Carousel be viewed. She probably has had up to 100 cocks (maybe more) by the time she is 27-30. Is she a slut? Probably. But here you are a 40-50 year old game aware man. There are many women out there 27-35 that are not fat and still fine. Yes, they’ve take a ton of dick up every orifice. But what are you going to do? It either them or nothing.

    So you’re this 45 year old man with his shit together. You don’t want to die alone and maybe you don’t really want to spin plates forever. So you meet this attractive 32 year old. She’s an aging 9 and she’s still damn hot. Yeah, she was a party girl when she was younger and god only knows how many ONSs she has had. But she has matured somewhat and she does have some positive attributes at this age. Do you penalize her for being an aging cock whore? Is that realistic. Is it better to just go your own way and die alone?

    I don’t know. But these are questions that I and an army of other men will have to answer.

    Geez, the men in the 1950s and earlier did not have to deal with this shit. How I envy them.

  32. @Dean,

    Everyone dies alone. Take that off the table as a consideration. If you want to count on having the possibility of having someone bedside with you at the moment of death, have kids or hire a 24/7 nurse. Serious.

    I’m going to take a stab and say that perhaps a concern underlying that thought is fear of being alone while living. Does this fear come from thinking in terms of scarcity? Like “I must marry a woman so that I have someone!” If so, that’s not true.

    I am not married. When I first got divorced I was all “Oh no!!!! Now I’ll be all alone and stuff.” Well, I was always alone. Even when you are married, you are alone in a way. There are no guarantees in life my friend. Repeat that to yourself every morning. How many times do we hear on here and elsewhere about the guy or gal married twenty years and they wake up one morning and their spouse has run away with the spoon, or got sick and died, or had an accident? No guarantees.

    If you want something close to a guarantee I can assure you that if you keep your shit together, you will have no dearth of females wanting your company. I have never had so many women literally throwing themselves at me. When you are an older guy, and you take care of yourself and you have your life together, you are a hot commodity.

    By this age guys are firmly on the path of loser-dom or doing okay to very well for themselves. If you are doing okay to very well, you have nothing to fear in terms of being able to locate women that you can hang out with or bust a nut in.

    After red-pilling up, getting my mechanics down, working out my logistics (and my most of my issues – lolz) and investigating my target markets I was quite shocked at how easy, yes easy, it is to meet women, invest a little time and shit test passing and sleep with them. Are these women I want to marry? No. Are these women I would consider for marriage? Not really. Does it matter to me? No. Why? I have decided that I do not wish to get married again. I may LTR it, but I’m not going to get married. Since I have made that decision it is quite freeing since I do not need to find Mrs. Perfect as a potential wife. Just Ms. Sexy and Not Annoying and Not Psychotic. Still a tall order, lolz, but much less strenuous a criteria to find a non-annoying girlfriend or Friday night outing and sex buddy than it is to find a wife.

    Fear of being alone should not be the basis for the decision to marry up with someone. That said, if you are determined to get married, know that even guys have an expiration date where options start to decrease if their physical decline is not offset by other factors like cash and shiny things. So, just like a chick who is going past 30 and her looks being the fade, you want to be aware of that, but be cognizant of the fact that there is a difference between your marriage market value and your sex market value. Your sex market value goes a lot further and lasts a lot longer.

    Ask anyone who has worked in a retirement home what those old coots get up to. Yee-haw!!!

  33. Hmm, thinking for a sec, I suppose you could argue convincingly either way that a guy’s marriage or sex/dating market value is the one that lasts longer. In any event, no worries, there are scads of chicks looking for a guy just like you if you have your shit together. You are now in the reverse position of the sex market, now you call the shots, dictate the pace and dole out any commitments. You set the terms of the deal.

  34. zlx1,

    Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure I agree with “the everyone dies alone” Rollo-style argument. In one sense, yes its undeniable. But that’s not what I meant. A LTR/marriage offers you something that spinning plates doesn’t; something that Athol understands but pretty much the rest of the Manosphere doesn’t. It offers you the context in which to link romance, sex and long-term value exchange. That is the Western conception of romantic love at its highest. Casual sex, Fuck-buddies, plates, while they are all enjoyable do not give the same type of spiritual (secular sense) and emotional intensity. Some men want more than fuck buddies; not that there is anything wrong with fuck buddies and plates are just a modified version of that.

    Its nice to share a life together or at least a significant portion of it. That is something which only a serious ltr/marriage offers. At some point I would like to find a worthwhile woman and attempt that. My grandmother and my grandfather both died in their 80s. Cancer ate them both up in terrible ways. But they spent 40 years together (second marriage for each). In one sense they didn’t “die alone” as they died in the context of a shared life.

    The nihilism of the manosphere turns my stomach sometimes. I appreciate that Athol tries to fight it off. Really, we live in such a repulsively cynical age. Jesus, I would rather have been born in the 13th century or hang out with Scipio Affricanus in the Roman Republic.

  35. zlx1,

    I didn’t mean to sound like I was calling you repulsively cynical. Its just that that’s the way the manosphere comes off to me. Your comment was very helpful.

    BTW, how old are you? And can you briefly say what your target markets are. You seem to have things figured out, something I am still in the process of.

  36. @Dean

    Giving it my best shot and trying not to sound like a nutty chick myself. Lolz.

    No worries. I careen back and forth between cynicism and hope. I know exactly what you mean about an LTR, a good one, or if being cynical an idealized and unobtainable one. I do think that my parents, grandparents, great grandparents (all 45+ year deals) and even some friends I know have that. If I’m being totally honest with myself and you, and I’m really trying to do that and to see past my own bullshit these days, if you gave me a choice and said I could go back in time to 25, meet and marry (or LTR) an exceptional woman and have a marriage like my parents or I could go as I am now and meet and date, sometimes sleep with, sometimes STR with a haversack of women, well I would choose the first option most days you ask me. Don’t give me the option of having the me of today go back and teach the 18 year old me some things. Lolz. No brainier.

    Then I read some Rollo or posts like the recent Funeral one here and I “Abandon all hope ye who enter” and just want to throw up in my mouth a little and put my hands up in the air like i just don’t care and say screw it. Just totally screw it man Just be a selfish prick and plough There is a very good rate of return in regards to access to chicks and sex when just being a selfish prick with an avowed disinterest in anything other than short term engagement of a particular woman. It’s safer isn’t it though? But the question of the day is does it get you what you really want. Unknown at this time for me but I’m starting to get to grips with some answers for myself.

    A good instructional point being that throughout my life my greatest successes have always been had when not playing it safe. That’s not to say play it foolish, that would describe the selection of my first wife. Lolz.

    Let’s explore…lift the hatch on my head and climb in. Don’t mind the mess.

    I had a bad first marriage story. You’ve heard it a hundred times before. That definitely influences my current attitude. I’m working on breaking free from that influencing me, as much as is realistically possible, and trying to get myself to a point where mentally I’m open to and receptive to the possibility of meeting a great woman and taking a chance on something more meaningful.

    What I’m doing now in the romance department is a reflection of my own hang-ups after my prior marriage experience. That and once you get on a roll with new women, yeah its a bit addictive isn’t it? Doesn’t mean its the best for me though. To be frank, I think it holds me back because unless I am open to the possibility of meeting a great woman, I never will.

    Why? Because I won’t see her. All I will see is what I want to see and right now that’s a combination of red pill and some residual butt hurt. I will never go back to the pedestal, or put on the rose colored glasses. That would be foolish and knowledge hard won through a lot of pain should be put to productive use. Right now I’m not so sure I’m putting it to the most productive use. I’m goofing around with women and having fun and sex but if I have objectives higher than that in regards to women, I’m also wasting a lot of time in some respects.

    Yet then I crash back the other way and ask myself if, knowing what I know and seeing what I’ve seen, and lived what I lived, should I have any higher objectives than that concerning women? Should I really, or should fun, doing stuff and having good sex without all the obligations be the extent if it? Sounds nice, but as you pointed out, there is that deep connection missing. Truth be told Dean, I don’t think I’ve ever had that with a woman so I don’t know what I’m missing or if it’s worth the bubble, boil, trouble and toil. I can only guess so based on my family background and seeing the odd couple I know who seem to have that going on.

    I’m not a player or PUA or intended to live that lifestyle. I’m just a divorced dude making my way out here. I dont begrudge a guy who does choose that hardcore PUA (or wannabe PUA) lifestyle. Each man chooses his own path to what he thinks will make him happy.

    I do most certainly appreciate the knowledge shared by them and Athol here as it has been instrumental in my own personal journey of deconstructing all my prior mistakes in the marriage as well as practical advice for getting back “out there” after 14 years of not being in the dating pool. My, my things have changed.

    Demographically I am 41. I have been single two years. My target market is broken down into segments and I have different strategies in terms of meeting and dating depending on that. It’s rather broad but I generally classify like this:

    Single Mommies – never married. I try to avoid. Exception her kids are grown and gone and she has a very good track record of being a lIfe success after her “mistake”. For example, I went out with a woman this weekend who was a young (teen) single mother. Her kid is grown and in school. The woman herself put herself through college, earned a difficult professional license and has done well. She appears to not have made any other big life blunders. She was fun company.

    Divorced women with kids, woman any age: I really try to suss out the why of the divorce. That’s critical to know. I also examine how they support themselves and how the ex is portrayed. Less kids the better from where I sit.

    Divorced women, no kids, woman any age: same as above.

    Special note: recent divorcees are usually DTF fast, and up for the wildest things as a rule of thumb. Almost as if they wish to have something hurtful to throw back at their ex. Petty, but there it is. The more Alpha or faux Alpha (lol – alpha/beta) you are or if you just want to call it direct and confident, the better since high side odds are that the dude she left was doing the dutiful beta provider thing. I digress.

    Single – never married – no kids – over 35: I have encountered a lot of crazy here, a lot of delusional here, a lot of teenage girls trapped in a grown woman’s body. I have a hard time taking them seriously. At this age they are a statistical anomaly in terms of having not been married or had kids. It would actually be more ‘normal’ for them to have done so by this age. You have to ask yourself why. Selfishness seems to be a big factor. Then there is the baby rabies to contend with. Met a 37 yo single mom (never married) with a 2 year old. Dumb. Very dumb move.

    Single – never married – no kids 30 – 35: See above, but less neurotic on the whole, but increasing weirdness as they eke closer to 35. I have also observed that the closer to 35 she gets, the less flexible she becomes and rumblings of “I don ‘t need a man (except when I do)” start to be heard. There is a push to find “the one”, quick niw, and get married. Usually very picky as they regard this as the last great opportunity to cash in the chips and get a man. Interesting that this is also a high demographic for divorce if I remember correctly. Probably for the same reasons.

    Single – never married – no kids 30 and under : My preferred but the overall highet difficulty level category for me since my being divorced and having kids, though they are teens, is going to be an issue the younger the woman is. Totally understandable. Also since I make no secret of not wanting to get married again that is a turn off to some. Understandable. Yet there is in this group some swell and sexy gals that don’t pay any mind to any of that and dig ze older man thing. Yay boobies!

    Sidenote 1: If I lied and said I had never been married or lied about having kids, in other words, if I was a dedicated stone cold dark side player, I could totally smash much more ass much easier and with less initial access challenges across all demographics above. But begs the question to self: Self, if you’re so anti-Serious Relationship and what not, why don’t you do just that? Scruples? Yeah, scruples and I have to live with me and what I do. We all bullshit a lil when on the prowl but there’s a difference between telling a good bar tale, keeping some info private and flat out making up a secret identity.

    Sidenote 2: You would be surprised, or not, that there are a number of women that I tell pretty early on that I have no interset in marriage who simply refuse to believe me. Now either they refuse to beleive me because there is something less than convincing in my statement to them, or they think they will change my mind and they like the fun of the extra challenge for a time. Dunno, but not my problem as I’m honest about that.

    Now not all women in my retarded little categories will like me, nor will I like them. Them’s is the breaks. I have thus far dated, if you call it that at times, women in all the categories above. Of the adventures that resulted in sexcapades, the oldest was 37. The youngest 26, so far. 28-32-ish seems to be my norm range as of today. Giggity.

    Of interest more to myself, notice how I almost seem to describe the categories above in terms of suitability for LTR or marriage. Interesting because as I said, in my behavior and general statements, I’m not looking for that. Yet there it is leaking out. That is something I’m doing a lot of thinking about these days. Why the dichotomy. What’s going on in my noggin about that? If I stop bullshitting myself, step off my little vagina carousel I’ve rather unintentionally setup, and think on it, what am I really doing or after?

    I setup a little soft harem without trying to or thinking about it. I just started trying to date women and have sex post divorce using red pill knowledge. It worked. After some fits and starts and getting a feel for how women in my categories generally react to certain things, it became pretty easy to meet them and have a high “success” rate of getting to the bedroom. Once I became environmentally aware again of women around me coupled with red pill information it was almost ridiculous the amount of active female attention that was around that I could engage.

    I’m not Brad Pitt, I’m not a millionaire. I’m just firmly in the category of having most of my shit together and doing well. That plus being aware of it all is about all it took to get this all going.

    So, as of today, I have a couple that I regularly do things with for fun and sleep with, but I don’t really talk to them about anything deep and just stay in touch and we get together. They seem to be okay with that setup. I have a couple that I used to date or STR but I don’t sleep with them anymore but it’s more like emotional content. Not love by any means but a bit more than platonic, yet not on my radar to rekindle or “go there” again. Orbiters? I dunno. Then I am looking for and meeting new women. Sometimes it’s just a coffee and fizzle, sometimes a few dates , sometimes a date or two then sex followed by relational fizzle or falling out of lust. A lot of eventual fizzle though is because of me more than anything else.

    On the one hand my presentation of disinterest in relationships with women creates an ‘always on’ bit of aloofness and reflexive dickishness, which is a short term attraction builder in a lot if cases. But it leads to a lot of fizzle in many cases because many of these women in this age range are seriously looking for relationship and when it finally does catch on with them that “Oh, he meant that.” It fizzles.

    I have learned that the few ones who keep sticking around after you’ve flat said NO to any relationship beyond casual dating, are crazy or usually just like you, like sleeping with you and are just cool with that level of things while they date around for Mr. Right. Which, lol, gives me pause on the whole matter because hey maybe the new chick i just met is banging two other dudes while trying to date me as though I was a potential Mr. Right. Oh brother, what an F’ed up chess game we make of it all.

    If I dated women my own age maybe my non-commital show wouldn’t matter as they might not have any expectation or hope of that. Haven’t dated any women my own age so I couldn’t tell you first hand. Maybe if I lied about it or was evasive I could string things along longer, but I don’t like to waste her time like that either. So I’m up front even if I pay a penalty sometimes. Though it’s not like I announce it, I just answer straight up if asked. Same for when asked if I want more kids. Nope.

    Anyway…

    My “thing” that I’m working on, as I said in some comments in the pots and pans screening post, is that I’m trying to figure out why if I’m so down on LTR do I seem to often categorize, in person qualify and dismiss women based on LTR type qualities.

    Here’s the Rub: As I said, if I’m all about the giggles and only the giggles, then that should be right out of my head and my total criteria should be boner potential, fun, not too crazy or annoying. Which is a good starting point regardless, but there’s something else going on under the surface here that I’m scratching at to uncover.

    Is it what the “real me” wants, just leftover blue pill residue of fantasies of one true love (probably a bit of that) or something else? Working on it…

  37. FeralFelis says:

    re comments made by Dean and Z;
    I’m a 54yo female and initially came here to try and figure out what went wrong in my two marriages and a short but intense relationship with a man I’ve known and loved since college (we’d tried dating on multiple occasions, but could never make it work long term).
    The longer I’m here (and I check in less and less often), the more depressed I’ve become and, like Dean, have decided that the manosphere turns my stomach. I’ve pulled all my profiles and stopped looking. Perhaps if it’s meant to be, I’ll run into someone like Dean as I’m volunteering, hunting, attending my various interest group meetings or something. But I don’t think I’ll ever again go into a date without looking for the Game being played on me. Kinda sad for someone who has maintained a strong naivte for so long….

  38. @FeralFelis

    Well,

    It doesn’t really turn my stomach, but it is disheartening sometimes or discouraging at times. Not all the time, but sometimes, yeah. Other times it’s funny. Other times it’s encouraging depending on where in ye ole Manosphere you are.

    But it is the Manosphere, not the Womanosphere so it’s guys writing primarily for guys on issues ranging from getting dates, not acting like a dork on dates, how to do the nasty better, relationship issues guys deal with, marriage topics, then there are the political sites, etc. etc. etc. Pretend you got to listen in on a thousand conversations at a private men’s club. That’s the manosphere. Some guys are complete pigs, others are “saints”, (lol), most are just guys being guys, talking about guy things.

    Sites like this are where maybe an older crowd is drawn and we muck through some unpleasant stuff as we sort through some past and current baggage and struggles.

    Naivete. I used to have it. Wife fucking the neighbors in my house while I was away with the kids visiting relatives kind of beat that out of me finally. Tough to remain naive after that. You can try to, but I don’t know if it’s possible. Some things can’t be unlearned whether they are harsh personal revelations or truths you’ve come to understand about people. It does suck sometimes. It would be wonderful to have that innocence back, but you can’t. You just can’t.

    When I was a little kid I thought all grown ups were exciting, good and nice people. They are not. Now that we are grown up we know better. It would be dangerous to think otherwise.

    On game itself…

    Everyone plays a little game, consciously or not. Putting on lipstick, eyeliner and a dress that highlights your figure is playing game. Making sure my shoes are shined, that I’m not dressed like a dork, and I’m shaved and trimmed, before I go out is game. The girl who looks across the bar at me, bats her eyes and dilates her pupils when I go over and talk to her is playing game.

    Game is not bad, nor is it good. It’s neutral I think. What people do with it gives it intent and moral character. A hammer laying on the ground is a hammer. If I pick it up I can build a nice birdhouse or I could hit my neighbor in the head with it. The hammer is neutral until a person takes an action with it. I think game is the same way in many respects.

    But “game” loosely defined could be said to be a set of unconscious and conscious social and sexual behaviors. Or, you could say “game” as traditionally defined in perhaps PUA circles is a set of specific learned behaviors designed for the sole purpose of getting babes sexually excited and into beds. Or a lot of game advice could be stated as almost like talking to your cool, older cousin “Hey squirt, when you talk to girls don’t say stuff like that or stand like that.”

    Is that evil? I don’t think so. Is that taking advantage of a woman? No. No one is making her do anything. Lots of women seem to like a little gaming and flirting. It’s fun.

    Using “game” doesn’t mean you are out to hurt people or make them feel like dirt. For me, there is no political agenda. There is just my own personal agenda of figuring out my way on this Earth in regards to relations with the opposite sex. Game or red pilling has been very useful but more from the perspective of “Duh, I knew that. It so clear when it’s written in black and white.” Plus it’s a nice place where guys can talk to other guys about things that only other guys would understand.

    So…

    Perhaps something better to aim for in regards to all this is to accept the ugly parts of human behavior for what they are, know that they are there, and be positioned to where you can deal with it if ugly should rear it’s head in your life. Yet, you can remain optimistic and hopeful, but not childlike in the face of having this knowledge.

    I guess that was some of what I was getting at above. I’d like to get to that place, but I was relating to Dean where I’m currently at, and what I struggle with.

    Anyway, bottom line, even someone doesn’t like it, you can’t get away from game (whatever that is defined as) or human sexual or social behavior. Better to be aware of the surroundings and operate with knowledge I think. Can hopefully try and avoid some landmines that might not have been avoided when young and naive.

  39. @FeralFelis

    Just to be clear. The women I date, I don’t just walk in to the venue and announce at the first meeting:

    1. I’m not interested in marriage.
    2. I date other people and sometimes I sleep with them.
    3. I don’t want to have more kids.
    4. Would you like wine or a cocktail?

    I don’t lie about it either if directly asked the questions above. After I give my straight answers, it’s up to her if she wants to stick around or not.

    I don’t promise that someone is my girlfriend or say that things are leading this or that way, etc. in order to convince anyone to spend time with me in or out of the sack. I say quite clearly that I’m up for casual dating, and we’ll see where it goes, and that’s the truth of it.

    Sometimes it goes nowhere. Sometimes it goes a couple outings then she doesn’t like me or I don’t like her. Sometimes (gasp) I have indeed slept with a woman the first day I met her. Chicks do that? Yep. They do.

    Sometimes it goes a couple months, then blep, it fades out, and we never talk again, no one is mad, it just goes that way. Sometimes we see each other for a bit, but it fizzles but then we chat from time to time. Sometimes they just e-mail me every now and again. They keep me on tap, hehe. Sometimes I meet them for lunch and just hang out.

    Never fear, most of the women i meet are playing “games” even harder than I am, but without the frankness and honesty of intention or divulging of information.

    A guy who tells a woman he loves her, wants to marry her, blah, blah just to convince her to get naked is a big douche. (and weak if that’s the only sales pitch he has) A woman who lets a guy buy her a bunch of dinners and tickets and take her on expensive outings when she has zero interest in the guy sexually is totally gaming him in a negative way and is basically a “working girl.” She’s just as big a douche.

    Shall I tell you how many times I’ve encountered sweet, innocent, virtuous, married women who lie their ass off about being married or claim to be “separated”? I hate that, because I absolutely do not mess with married women, and their lies have the potential to put me in a position where I would not want to be from my own personal standards.

    Luckily I have never been duped into being with a married woman. I would be pretty pissed. So, stop lying and gaming ladies. It’s not fair for you to take advantage of us guys.

    The Lolz! They return.

    But you get my drift. It’s a two way street and I didn’t write the rules of the road. I just have to live by them.

  40. Z-
    I enjoy your writing and listening to the way your mind is sorting things out. Thanks for elucidating.

  41. ZLX1,

    Thanks for the comment. Fascinating stuff. You have given me a ton to think about.

    FeralFelis,

    You sound like a woman with a soul. I have one too. In this day and age that is a weakness and we will suffer for it. I wish you the best.

  42. When I was 22 I would never have gone out with a 42 year old. I thought anyone over 40 had one foot in the grave.

  43. RockMomster says:

    It’s been my observation that younger men are more likely to under rate themselves, (there are some egomaniacs) but older men are more likely to over rate their hotness factor. At 24, dating a man in his 40’s was just creepy. A doctor I played volleyball with tried to date me, but I could date really hot guys my own age. (40 yr Athol put way too much pressure on and came across as too slick. That says “I just want to get you in bed ASAP.” Turn OFF) My husband is 10 years younger than me and has often been thought to be older than me. Men really aren’t the only ones who can age well.

Trackbacks

  1. […] Married Man Sex Life – Young Guy Game Vs Old Guy Game […]

  2. […] While women in their early forties… meh not so much. I touched on that topic with Young Guy Game vs Old Guy Game. I actually had a friend phone me up after I wrote that post saying I soft peddled it way too much […]

  3. […] have a profound effect if you’re creative about it. Case-in-point – I casually threw out the Old Guy vs. Young Guy game idea at my wife over the weekend by simply shaping it as a question. She’s loosely aware […]

  4. […] 3. Athol Kay looks back on when he was in his twenties: […]

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