Fitness Testing vs Loyalty Testing

I’ve had a long email exchange over a few days now. At first it’s mildly tedious as I answer – yet again – the basics. But at the end is a moment of zen as the student teaches the teacher and a new term is created…

Reader:  I was thinking that there are two types of beta – good and bad.   Now, though, after living through this, i wonder if alpha/beta is more alpha/something else, eliminate squirrelly beta behavior.   All the behaviors you say to stop should be stopped. Grow a backbone. Don’t ever do something she can do herself. Pick up the kids. That’s not the task. Pick up the kids when her idiot boss keeps her late at work. That’s a no-brainer, and you do it because it needs to be done. It’s not the same thing.

Relationship comfort is not picking up the kids because her boss in an ass. Relationship comfort is based in making sure she knows she’s your Number One. It *is* the loyalty factor.   Our wedding rings and engagement tattoos are claddaghs. Love is easy. Friendship means we like each other and respect each other on another level. Loyalty is both sexual and social. Monogamy. Mate guarding. Direct expressions of husband/wife-dom. None of these are beta activities. They are neither alpha nor beta.

You may have a x/y/z rather than an x/y formula, with x and z being desired at high levels, and y at low levels.   Just a thought.

Athol:  Alpha = attraction = dopamine

Beta = comfort = oxytocin

Physical = horny = testosterone/estrogen

“Bad beta” is basically something that looks like it might be good Beta, but wrapped up in a total failure of Alpha.

Good Beta = me finding two perfect jackets to go with Jennifer’s polka dot dress as a surprise and time saver.

Bad Beta = Jennifer ordering me to go find her a jacket to go with the dress in a shitty tone and me going off and finding something for her.

It’s really more a failure of Alpha than bad Beta though.

Reader:  So you don’t agree with the “too much alpha” and loyalty tests, or what I’m talking about isn’t related?   I’ll figure this out… it’s just not clicking yet.

Athol:   Can a man be too rich and powerful? Too strong?

He can be powerful but then lack enough Beta to make the woman comfortable he isn’t just going to dump her for someone hotter.

Reader:  Ok, so it’s still just alpha and beta, but there’s good alpha (wet panties) and bad alpha (asshole), good beta (loyalty) and bad beta (doormat).

Heh. The model holds up. Yup, I’m Virgo rising. Gotta deconstruct everything. ;)

Athol:   No…

Good Alpha (strong dominant = wet panties)    Weak Alpha  (doormat)

Good Beta (looks after you)   Weak Beta (doesn’t do anything helpful or nice)

You just see a lot of   (Good Alpha + Weak Beta) guys   and  (Weak Alpha + Good Beta)  guys      that’s where the confusion comes from.

Reader:  And where does asshole come in? Personality disorder? Lol

Athol:  An asshole is someone you want to give you Beta attention who doesn’t.

Reader:  lmao! Yup!

Reader:  Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!! I got it!!   The loyalty tests really rang true. I never really thought I was shit  testing, but I knew I was testing *something*.

So, is it this??

If the Alpha is high but bad or not enough Beta, it’s a loyalty test.  If the Beta is high but bad and the Alpha is low, it’s a shit test.

Did I finally get it right?   We’re just very open to talking about this in shared terms, and he had  been trying to respond to what I now think are loyalty tests with the  proper beta shit test response, which threw me further down the pit,  thinking he was fixing to leave me. So, they’d backfire until he  finally sat me down and said something completely profoundly loyal.  And I’d be okay in an instant. So, I was thinking that since he’s  heavy Alpha, there had to be something else at play. But, it’s simply  that either his Alpha was incorrectly played, and/or his beta wasn’t  there.

We’re officially living together now, and all this has gone away.  Well, most of it. I still have residual fear, but when he’s right  there to look me in the eye, he doesn’t even have to say anything  anymore. I get it. He’s not going to leave me. And now I’m pushing him  for more Alpha. heh. Go figure. ;) Stupid hamster.

Athol:  Actually all this makes a lot of sense. I’ve been arguing for nearly three years that Alpha and Beta are two separate traits of behaviors, yet only have Fitness Testing as a single term for ”acting out” behavior. Which means I’ve been kind of saying saying two things can be a problem, but there’s only one reason women can get upset. When I say it like that, makes me sound like an idiot lol.

I have talked about why wives can start getting withdrawn as their husbands improve their Sex Rank and start pulling ahead of their wives in attractiveness, just didn’t have a term for it. I think Loyalty Testing is a good one. A wife can be plenty attracted to her husband, just terrified of getting cheated on or dumped. There’s Dread Game where you inject a little of that into the mix and get a positive reaction, and then there’s losing hope that she can be anything other than a victim to his whim for how the relationship plays out. When that happens she pulls back, shuts her vagina down and braces for the emotional shotgun blast to the chest.

Which is exactly why when a wife Loyalty Tests her husband, and he bumps back on her and acts aloof and unaffected by her like it’s a Fitness Test, it makes things significantly worse between them. Playing hard to get when someone is desperate to see loyalty is the completely wrong thing to do.

So… new rules and terms…

Fitness Testing and/or ignoring you, act more Alpha

Loyalty Testing and/or clinging to you, act more Beta

Related posts:

  1. Does Fitness Testing Ever Stop? Reader:  Hi Athol, I have a personal question for you. ...
  2. Fitness Testing: Fail To Comply With The Request Had a question in comments somewhere about handling Fitness Tests...
  3. I Think Haley is Fitness Testing Me… Haley sends me a cover design for my book…. I...
  4. Fitness Testing Seeking Sexual Intensity One of the things Jennifer and I have grown greatly...
  5. Female Loyalty Is A Selling Point In I Love You But I’m Not In Love With...

Comments

  1. RedPillWifey says:

    You know, that actually makes a lot of sense.

    Interestingly, I think I’m way more conscious of when I’m loyalty testing vs fitness testing, now that I look back on moments that fall into those categories.

  2. justsomeguy says:

    I like it.
    I posted this in the Off Topic forum last night: “Labelling intangibles (Alpha, Beta, Hamster, SexRank, Body Agenda, etc) gives our mind the ability to think and reason about something that we know and realise on some deep intuitive level. To me – that was the really profound thing about MMSLP.”

    I think Loyalty-Test fits really well.

  3. Rain says:

    Yes. Just yes.

  4. berbs says:

    This was pretty insightful on the part of the reader you were going back and forth with, and helps to even out the yin and yang of the Alpha/Beta mix.

    This is definitely something I’m going to keep in the back of my mind as I continue to run the MAP.

  5. Rob says:

    and the tightrope gets that much narrower.

  6. Katherine Kelly says:

    Beautiful because it is being sensitive to the other fear.

  7. someguy says:

    This is really good/important. I’ve bumped back on what I thought were shit tests and saw fear in her eyes. I realized why and confirmed loyalty so all was ultimately well but I think this is important to codify into something that a newbie can understand from the get-go. I would even go so far as to suggest writing a whole new chapter around it! (Titled, “Blind Alleys and Pitfalls in the Map”, or something.)

  8. Arlequin says:

    I believe I’ve just experienced a Divine Epiphany. A Missing Piece as great as any Missing Link.

  9. MrBurgundy says:

    OK, I get the concept… but it’d help me wrap my head around it more if there were more examples of fitness test vs loyalty test. (At the time of writing, I’ve had 24 hrs of silent treatment after something “alpha” I said didn’t go down well, so reading this makes me think I bumped back on something that required a more “beta” response.) Silent treatment and complete lack of clinginess means it *should* be a fitness test, but something doesn’t feel right, and more alpha seems to be making it worse!

  10. Christy says:

    I can come up with examples… just need time to find yhe words to describe the diffeence between the feelings. “The fear in hers eyes” is a great way to put it.

    This came about when crossing mate guarding (why won’t he claim me??) with some actual events that were related to real stuff going on, not who’s picking up the kids.

  11. Dragon says:

    As a long term lurker Athol, I’d like to say thank you for everything you and Jennifer have done. Much as this pill has been bitter to swallow, you’ve made it a bit easier.

    I hope in the future you continue to differentiate between the two tests. I have been on the receiving end of my partner’s being a complete arse (it would have been A++ dreadgame, IF it had been to get my attention, not to facilitate a conflict avoidant way out of the relationship). If I had had a healthier family dynamic – where jumping through hoops and achievement were rewarded, then I would have probably upped my girl game to compete as well as I could, thus resulting in the desired dynamic. I was instead taught that no matter how many hoops I jump through I will never be good enough – and so I just tolerated a horribly painful situation, even facilitated it, because I didn’t feel I had a right to stick up for myself/ability to compete with someone who was hotter than me. It wasn’t a loyalty test, as such. It was me preparing for the inevitable rejection. I literally shutdown, withdrew and became crabby. I was pregnant also, so the out of whack hormones didn’t help, but I think my response would have been the same if I hadn’t been.

    It literally would have taken a little reassurance from him that he wanted to be with me and our family (of course, by that point he didn’t) and he was committed to working through our problems and I would have had that more positive response. I would have seen that as Alpha comfort – an authoritative ‘we are going to do this, because I say so, because we and our children are important enough to make this work’. Then taking a few beta actions to back it all up would have sealed the deal.

    Dread game, even as mild as bringing home the baked goods, has to be handled very very carefully. Whilst I had issues that are a throwback to my upbringing, I think many women who are just gentle, passive souls or going through a patch of depression might have exactly the same response as I did and it could seriously backfire, making the situation much worse. It isn’t just completely bat-shit women that game won’t work on.

  12. Ashton says:

    Athol, this is a great post — I agree with “someguy”, this definitely needs to go into book form! Reading it was an epiphany moment for me as well; I think I’ve been misidentifying some loyalty tests as fitness tests. When you think about it this way, it’s obvious that too little beta should be as much of a failure as too little alpha, and that a woman would naturally “bump back” on each of these in different ways. Of course it’s symmetrical: if there are two male traits which are important for evolutionary psychology, there will be two female “testing” instincts.

    As for MrBurgundy, I’d suggest that failing to provide beta when it’s being tested for would naturally provoke a “fearful” withdrawal response, which could be confused with the “disinterested” withdrawal coming from a lack of alpha. Something along the lines of “Oh crap, he really doesn’t care — I’d better not get too emotionally attached”. This would explain both the silent treatment and lack of clinginess.

    “Loyalty test”, in my opinion, is the perfect label for it.

    Athol, thanks for all you do here! I really value the way you tease out the logic behind different behaviours. It’s helped me in my relationship more than I could imagine.

  13. Anonymous says:

    “Which is exactly why when a wife Loyalty Tests her husband, and he bumps back on her and acts aloof and unaffected by her like it’s a Fitness Test, it makes things significantly worse between them. Playing hard to get when someone is desperate to see loyalty is the completely wrong thing to do.

    So… new rules and terms…

    Fitness Testing and/or ignoring you, act more Alpha

    Loyalty Testing and/or clinging to you, act more Beta”

    Theologian popping in for comment (if any are interested): you have ***perfectly described*** the Law-Gospel dynamic that Martin Luther talked about (i.e. as related to confession and absolution before God) – how should the messenger to God (pastor) respond to sin among believers.

    …except you are talking about it in terms of the husband-wife relationship (which again, is supposed to be a picture of God and His wife, the Church – see here: http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/regarding-jesus-wife-his-real-wife-that-is/ )

  14. Anonymous says:

    messenger to God (pastor)

    should be

    messenger of God (pastor)

  15. roe says:

    Predictions:

    Women with self-esteem issues will tend towards loyalty testing.
    Pregnant women will as well.

  16. Ian Ironwood says:

    Works for me. Always willing to work in a refinement to Married Game, and this fits the bill.

  17. WaitWhat? says:

    Like others, I had a hard time seeing how this works out in practice. The post seems to say that loyalty tests are a general response to a lack of good beta. However, good beta includes commitment and also includes helpful and nice behaviors.

    Here’s the thing. I believe loyalty tests only apply when the woman has doubts about the man’s commitment. If she is testing about helpful and nice beta behaviors, this falls into shit testing. If a man lacks alpha (is a doormat), then any helpful or nice thing he does goes into the doormat column, and the good beta column remains empty. A man can be extremely helpful and nice, but will be perceived as unhelpful and not nice, if he is a doormat (personal experience here). If a man has his confidence, sex rank, and DHV in order, then when he does something helpful and nice, it is able to be counted in the good column.
    Therefore, until the alpha is solidly in order, all tests are shit tests. Once the alpha is in order, most tests are still shit tests, even tests about the presence or absence of good beta behaviors in the helpful and nice category. This is the reason for the following LTR game rules:

    1. Use your leadership and dominance to get her to do things for you regularly, even if little things like a kiss or a backrub, then make sure to have her do more for you than you do for her.
    2. Make sure that helpful or nice thing you do for her is valued and rewarded.

    Only tests related to the commitment and loyalty of a man with good alpha behavior can properly be called loyalty tests in the sense described in the post. Even with loyalty tests, you can’t blindly pass every loyalty test. In some cases a little dread is needed, and if things are bad enough, an ultimatum may be needed.

  18. Ben says:

    @MrBurgundy:

    My hunch is that the key to telling the difference between Fitness and Loyalty tests will lie in examining the greater context of where the relationship is at rather than the specifics of the test itself.

  19. Eric says:

    Athol,

    Your writing and approach to marriage has always served to clarify for me some of the things that have worked to make my marriage a successful one, and why some of the things I tried in the past failed so miserably. Two of the biggest disconnects I’ve had with your approach are your understanding of fitness tests and advocacy of low level “dread game”. I didn’t disagree with those ideas because I found them distasteful, but because if I had employed them in my marriage overhaul, I know with firm conviction it would have been disastrous. I was high on some bad/asshole alpha behaviors and virtually non-existent on the Beta outside of financial support. Fixing things required me to actually listen to what my wife was complaining about, take her complaint to heart, and behave differently as a result (pretty much the opposite advice you’d give to a Fitness Test response, even though her actions looked a lot like fitness tests).

    This tweak clears things up so much. I think this is a major earth-shattering breakthrough.

    Also: for those asking for examples of Loyalty Tests, one of my wife’s major behaviors that I know realize was a Loyalty Test: “snaps” of extreme aggression followed immediately by an outpouring of emotion, usually crying.

  20. Draggin says:

    My past marriage: I was getting shit tested (real shit tests). I found some sites (pre-MMSL) that identified the problem and taught me how to handle the tests. I knew that I was too beta, so I upped the alpha (a lot). I guess she got scared at some primary level and her loyalty tests began, which looked like shit tests, so I treated them as such (up the alpha even more) since it had worked so well before. Implosion of marriage ensued.

    The clarification of the concept of Loyalty Testing would have really helped me and is something I haven’t seen outlined this clearly anywhere else.

    Too much Beta behaviour => Shit testing => Shit test response (up the alpha)
    Too much Alpha behaviour => Loyalty Testing => Loyalty test response (up the beta)

    I agree that the concept isn’t really new, since you have always said to up the beta in cases of too much alpha, but the new terminology will help in examining the motivation behind her bad behaviour and help identify the correct response to give. It all seems much simpler to me now a couple of years later, but when I was in the thick of it and trying to use a formula for shifting my frame, the fact that the formula only accounted for shit testing really screwed me up.

    Thankfully, we can start discussion re: correct responses to Loyalty Testing. I think I just might go back and read Roosh’s Compliment and Cuddle game for some tips.

  21. Christy says:

    There is a very alpha way to address a loyalty test. I’m trying to piece together the elements, but it always involves a strong, “you are my wife and you come first” message. That doesn’t mean I always got what I wanted, but I got more perspective from him when I didn’t like the answer. Along with the freedom to ask questions in a calm manner to clarify. And, yes, sometimes he would change his behavior. And it has helped. Having this clarification for me helps me work toward telling him straight-up that I’m having security issues, and we can address them head-on.

    So, in a way, yes this does tip toward self-esteem, but it doesn’t always, and it doesn’t dismiss the concept as valid, either.

  22. Nana says:

    And the one true Theory of Relationships™ just became more comprehensive. Great!

    Athol, I saw someone at the forums commenting on you preparing a female version of the MAP/primer. Is that correct? That would be awesome. I do take the girl game posts and try to apply their line of thinking to the MAP, but a book targeted specifically to women would be terrific!

  23. Eric says:

    One thing to consider as well is that MMSL (especially the forums) seems to have a heavy, almost self-selecting, appeal towards men who are coming at this from the low Alpha/bad Beta approach… they have to learn to deal with Fitness Tests first and foremost. That’s a given.

    But many of these guys are going to become so enamored by their new Alpha Super Powers that they will over-correct (which might actually be useful for a period of time if you have been a Beta Herb for most of your marriage). Identifying differences between Fitness Tests and Loyalty Tests will be extremely helpful to these men, who will likely be scratching their heads wondering why upping the Alpha worked so well for awhile and then started producing diminishing results. If you have run MAP to the point where you have quickly outpaced your wife in terms of Sex Rank, her sudden worries that you are going to leave her for something better may very well cause her to step it up in terms of sexual frequency and working on her own attractiveness… but that same worry and fear can (and will) turn into resentment very quickly, and at that point it may be wise for men to do a review and reset on their alpha/beta balancing behaviors.

  24. RedPillNewb says:

    Just another thing I wish I had known 20 years ago…

    I have gotten one loyalty test my whole relationship with my wife, because when we met I was Asshole Alpha + dread game (kind of unintentionally–not great with women, here, just faking it), and when she started crying because I didn’t love her, I slammed hard over to 100% Beta Puppy. So I passed, but balance has been kind of lacking.

    I will be watching carefully as I up the Alpha for signs of loyalty tests. I’m still not clear on how to tell them from fitness tests, but at least I have some hope of getting it right if I’m paying attention.

    It’s nice to “get it,” finally. Just wish I could have gotten it sooner.

  25. Atomized Bozo Explosion says:

    Great book, Athol. I am an avid lifelong reader, and your book stands out as one of the special ones.

    Here’s something I’ve been thinking about:

    There seems to be a separate energy of loyalty that is distinct from sexual energy,

    Yes, sex is very important to maintain a good relationship. That said, stubborn, heartfelt loyalty and fidelity is possible even when sex is over and done with, as in the case of a taking care of a spouse who is enduring a devastating years-long terminal illness.

    Certainly, at some point, a sexual relationship can get an added dimension that can continue after the sex is gone.

    This reminds me of the energy behind the saying “Once a Marine, always a Marine.” Hell or highwater would not take you from your platoon’s — or your mate’s — side in time of strife. In the case of a mate, the loss of the sex would only further cement your loyalty, like a pit bull’s jaws locking on. This would be the time when your love could express itself most fiercely.

    A mellower version of this energy can happen in the sunset, post-menopausal years of a relationship. The sex drive can (will!) ebb — but, lo and behold, there can still be a strong bond. Surprise! The sex wasn’t everything.

    I’d love to see this energy of bondedness and loyalty picked apart and analyzed. It isn’t just beta energy calculatingly expended in order to keep the sex flowing over the long haul. It is a separate energy, not dependent on sex.

    In what ways does it relate to Alpha male “game” theory? One thought in that vein: It would seem that the ability to convey to chicks that you are capable of unyielding macho loyalty could help moisten their labia and tease off their trousers, even though loyalty is often derided as being ultra-beta by PUA game theorists.

    Throwing open the question. Thoughts?

  26. FlyingDutchman says:

    It can be hard to recognize these tests when you’ve spent months or years MAP-ing out of the hole. And it can be hard to completely forgive your wife (or nature or whatever) for why you have to give your wife this comfort to ease her insecurity when she cannot (and did not) give it to you when you needed it. This is also why you have to be the captain (the leader) and why you have earned that right if you have experienced both sides of this coin (I have).

    My wife even came out later (much later) and thanked me for going it alone after I dug out of the emotional hole I was in without any support from her. I needed her emotional support and she did not give me any and in fact threatened to end our relationship as I reached a very low point emotionally struggling to understand why she couldn’t help me when I was down. She apologized that she couldn’t give me what I needed. This is a bitter reality of the red pill. It is very hard for a guy to understand why his wife can’t give him this support. I still don’t really understand why, I just accepted it.

  27. anonymouse says:

    Soooo, how does one figure out the difference between a Loyalty Test and a Fitness Test, particularly when as a woman, she is unaware that she is intentionally doing either?

  28. Sis says:

    Brilliant Athol!

  29. Whitney says:

    **applause**

    This! I’ve been loyalty-testing my boyfriend for a while, and couldn’t figure out why I was feeling the urge to do it. He is super-Alpha, and most of the time I love it. I am also usually super-confident, but around him, for the first time, I feel insecure sometimes. He typically responds with more Alpha, which I like on some level (I don’t want a milk-toast pushover. Been there, done that.) but it also makes me feel more worried that he doesn’t love me on the same level I love him. Now that I have some insight, that I am not, in fact, “shit-testing,” maybe I can figure out how to stop it and ask for what I need more rationally.

    Thanks, Athol, as always.

  30. Tinker says:

    When I look at how much work it takes to maintain some sort of sanity in modern marriage I’m beginning to wonder if it is really all worth it. I’ve always been a simple guy, my word is my bond, the vows I took were not just pretty words to be spoken on the hamster’s finest day. If our women do not believe in following those vows, maybe we would be best suited to dump them before they dump us and find one that does. Statistics support they will dump us first and now do so in ever increasing numbers for the most frivolous of reasons. The media is now full of articles of women “dreaming of Divorce” and the “Divorce houses” they could live in if only their husband “Would have an Affair” and free them of having to do the dirty work themselves. I for one will never marry again.

  31. Dasugo says:

    Tinker, most people here dont have the right balance so they get into trouble. Choose the right woman and dont be an asshole or doormat.

    Mean what you say and make sure you pay attention to your spouse and you will fine.

    If you marry a woman that loves those dreaming of divorce articles or divorcing you for a frivolous reason, you choose wrong.

  32. Tinker says:

    Dasugo, the problem is it does not matter how careful you are about who you pick. A lot women change beyond belief when they hit their 40′s, and a lot of it has nothing to do with how alpha or beta you are.
    When you read these articles and the comment sections afterward, these women are not dreaming of divorce because their marriages are bad, they are clearly either bored or having a mid life crisis.

  33. Christy says:

    I think a few people in the forums nailed it… an outburst or other event that can be mistaken for a shit test, but then is followed quickly by crying or withdrawing. Emotional. If you look, you can see the wound. If you miss it, you can tell when you apply a proper alpha respinse and get tears, withdrawal or a reasonable discussion of the topic.

    Mostly, Loyalty Tests happen over real stuff. Boss is an ass at work. Problem at home is lingering. Task isn’t getting done. You didn’t mate guard her. You still have an ex as a friend on Facebook, whiile in an established ltr, and all those old conversations (flirting) are still oit there.

    This is not usually a request to hold her purse or prop up her looks. It’s not usually (usually, but can be) delivered in what starts as a reasonable tone. Sometimes it’s a repeated request. Sometimes it intensifies in emotion, but traditionally not bitchy. More of a panic.

    Is a picture forming in your mind yet? If not, I’m sure a few of us could add more detail.

  34. Christy says:

    Tinker: shit test. Respond with alpha. Or, as Athol would say , “what she means when she says, ‘I’m nored.’”

  35. MrBurgundy says:

    @Ben and others, thanks. Insightful. Up to today I’ve maintained the alpha and got worse than nowhere, so I think this may be a loyalty test (talk about a timely post, Athol!). This surprises me as it implies she thinks my SR is higher whilst my own opinion is that I’ve more MAP to run…

    I’ll try a beta approach and report back.

  36. Alphabrew says:

    Mystery, the father of Game, called them “Congruency Tests”.

    That’s slightly different I think. More like you saying you’re a doctor, and her asking you a medical question to see if you’re really a doctor.

  37. Christy says:

    Mr Burgundy, I hope you’re also in the position of your wife being utterly devoted to you. Husband giggles. I’m hoping for you that your need for the MAP is to get back on track. :)

    I also hope that the dose of (alpha-delivered) beta gives her the reassurance she needs!

    She must love you!

  38. horseman says:

    Bingo bango bongo.

    Exactly what it is and what turned us around. she never shit tested just ignored and all my stuff was alpha bit she was so afraid it never broke through. She needed loyalty amd wanted desperately to follow but i proekected i dont wamt anyone following me. so when i started specifically leading it was a loyalty test for her which i immediately responded to.

    I now specifically say she is a good wife etc. and we are great. this was the missing link between neaderthal and einstien.

  39. Dale says:

    I have recently realized (and am checking on) this as the problem that wrecked several relationships. However, the loyalty tests went so far that I believed I was Number 2, so went into wait and see if he dumps her mode. (The first two did). K. even went so far as to say publicly he was a better lover (I later overheard him tell a couple of new women he was trying to date “If you don’t put out, I’ll dump you, just like I dumped Karen.”, but I believed her (for over 30 years)). L. told me the dating service was a loyalty test (years later) and may have done the same thing with the I slept with him, and can’t sleep with both of you so we’re through (good news for me: I was trying to seduce one of her best friends to get out of the relationship,, and thus I didn’t have to hurt her.)

  40. gunslingergregi says:

    If you want to pass a loyalty test one time forever then say you don’t want to be married to her till death do us part but forever.
    Told my wife we married for eternity i want to be married with her in the afterlife cause if there is a heaven then who else would i envision there to make me happy but my wife.
    Well ok maybe some other chicks but i definetly want the wife there he he he
    takes a lot of pressure off to think in terms of forever and not just in terms of this short existance we call life then even though you are seperated from each other it doesn’t really matter you know one day gonna be together its a cool thing i like it.

  41. gunslingergregi says:

    When I look at how much work it takes to maintain some sort of sanity in modern marriage I’m beginning to wonder if it is really all worth it”””””

    naa marriage in the west is not worth it to much liability to take on

  42. gunslingergregi says:

    and why is there nothing about testing the woman
    guys need to be testing testing testing testing the woman like a fighter jet to see what it can do

    and on the the woman doesn’t want to have sex part my two marriages so far woman always ready for sex
    i think the real red pill in life is that it is the guy who gets tired of having sex with the woman and that is why the marriages fail cause just tired of the same old vag
    You can promise your life to a woman but really not fair to only be able to ever have one.

  43. MrBurgundy says:

    An update: beta helped. A bit. Then I got a classic fitness test that was handled well by alpha. My error, looking back over the last week, is thinking I was getting one test of one type (fitness or loyalty). In fact, under a cool analysis, I think I’ve been getting a series of alternating tests – fitness, then loyalty, then fitness again… I think Mrs B is riding an emotional roller coaster at the moment! Thanks to all who chipped in, all comments were helpful. And thanks to Athol for highlighting this type of test at this particular time. Nice bit of serendipity for me.

  44. Christy says:

    *whew*! Thanks for the report, MrBurgundy. Good to know you two are working on this and seeing success!

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  1. [...] coined the term here on his newest post. He describes a loyalty test as a test of a woman that has already acknowledged how Alpha her man [...]

  2. [...] of a Beta has some legitimate concerns regarding my post yesterday and Athol’s new Loyalty test.  He asks: Does this term and the definitions Athol found suddenly make things in the Alpha/Beta [...]

  3. [...] Athol’s original post which introduces the term Loyalty Test that we’re discussing. [...]

  4. [...] Recently I have the pleasure of being a part of a dialogue on the Married Man Sex Life forum that has started a paradigm shift in Married Game, namely the development of a new concept called the “Loyalty Test” which was featured last week in Athol Kay’s article: Fitness Testing vs. Loyalty Testing. [...]

  5. [...] how alpha and beta are not really points on a line, more like two different dimensions entirely. Fitness Testing vs Loyalty Testing | Married Man Sex Life If you're really low in alpha and really high in beta we call you a pu$$y. If you are really high [...]

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